Hey, and welcome to What Future. I am your host, Joshua Sapolski, and today I'm very excited because we have Frankly, an unusual guest for the show at least thus far, a bona fide songwriter, musician, producer who I am very into at the moment. A woman named Penelope Scott. I bought on Vinyl. I bought a T shirt of hers. I mean, I became a complete fanboy over over this music. And what I didn't know and what you wouldn't know, of course if you listen to this or you heard it on Spotify, is she became well known. And the only reason that these records exist at all, and that she's touring and that you know she's got millions of plays on these different services and stuff, is because she had song that got popular on TikTok. And that is a that's a weird path of like I know that it exists in lots of different ways for lots of different people, but like when you hear about who the TikTok influence are, actually this is very related to the some of the stuff that Taylor and I were talking about last week. When you hear about like the influencer thing. It's usually like these like girls who do dances or like funny like comedians doing things, or like weird stunt videos or whatever, and it turns out there's like actually really active world of music happening there, and like the music is just super interesting and unusually produced and unusually written and combines lots of different genres that I feel like shouldn't go together but weirdly do. So we got Penelope to come on the podcast and talk about hopefully some of this stuff and maybe some other things, and to be honest, as a huge fanboy of her music and songwriting, I'm just sort of curious about when the album's gonna drop, sort of selfishly. So here is singer, songwriter, producer Penelopes got Penelope, thank you for being here. First off, this is very exciting. I'm a huge fan, which sounds like, frankly, like a weird thing to say to anybody, but I was telling the story just you know, before you got on that I discovered your music in a sort of weird roundabout way, which wells probably not that round about, but I it's like one of your songs was on a random Spotify playlist. I was listening to and I heard it and I was like, this is what is this? At first, I was like what is this? Because frankly, what you make is so distinct that my brain like sort of short circuit. And I was like, I've done maybe I hate that. I might hate this right at first, And then I took a second because I have a very immediately critical reaction to many things in life, and so I was like, let me just let let me let the sink in. And I was like, well, no, wait, actually this is really good. And so I liked it, as one does on Spotify, and then I forgot all about that that the song existed. Just feel better. By the way, his the name of the song. Maybe you've heard of it. It's one that you did. Yeah. Anyhow, then I came back to it many months later because I remember that it existed. I went, and then I went and I listened to I think like most of or maybe everything that I could find of yours on the internet. And it's really really good and interesting and weird. And um, I used to produce music, so you know, to me, it's like the songs are really interesting and weird and good, but also the production is very like unusual and surprising and exciting to listen to. Let me ask you, do you produce your own stuff? Is it all you? Yeah? Well, first of all, thank you, I appreciate that, and yeah, I do produce all my own music so far. Now now I'm starting to like actually be willing to accept help from other people. But yes, Um, the Drunkyard two was like completely voice memo material, so there was no production, and then Public Void I produced it. I mean Junkyard too. It's interesting you say voice memos because to me it has because I'm extremely old and near death, it has a quality of like a four track or like you know, like Elliott Smith, like demos or whatever, like in the sense that the distance between like the stuff that you did on on that record and what I think of as classic like demo sounding or indie sounding stuff. Is it actually you recorded into voice memos? Yeah, most of them were recorded in the voice memo app on my iPhone. Yeah. Basically what happened is that I have been playing music for a while and I would record them sometimes just to have them and to be able to listen to them later and hear the songs. And then um, when a couple of songs started to become popular online. I just went back for the best of those and put them all together and released that. Oh I see like a splice of all those different ones. I think the production on your stuff is so weird and interesting and like you and I probably could just have a really nerdy conversation about this. But first off, like for me, like you, like ten years ago, like I was like obsessed with like chip tune ship like or maybe even earlier than that. It's funny because when I hear it now, I'm usually like, god, no, like it's so overused and so played out, and like everybody's just like doing the same thing. And yet like when I hear it, like whatever the kind of chip tuning stuff in your music that I've heard, I'm like, oh god, that sounds so fresh and interesting original. I have to say, like it's very impressive, But the way you blend it with other it's such an unexpected way of mixing sounds together. By the way, this is like totally we don't have to talk about this, but I have all these questions, like like I wanted to like how you actually like what are you producing in Like what do you like tracking um pro tools really Yeah, So I learned pro Tools. I had a little bit of help, but a lot of it was just me beating my head against the wall and it it's it's gnarly, but it's fun and it's crazy pro Tools. Nobody even talks about pro tools anymore. It's like for such a long time it was the de facto like pro studio situation, and then everybody just kind of like shifted to weird ship like and everybody's like, oh, I just use logic or whatever because I'm only doing it on a laptop. So it's fascinating that anybody still uses pro tools. In my opinion, I'm just like blown away by it. It's wild. Pro Tools is like the badass one that I'm like trying to get more proficient at. And then the back tracks for a bunch of the songs in public Void was was Limbs, which I don't know how adults say it, but we always have Limbs and it's just like l m MS version one point two point one. It's a free software and we downloaded it. This is kind of fun. So I was in a music and technology class just pre pandemic, and then everything went on zoom, and so half the kids aren't on campus and half the kids are, so they have to come up with a way to still be teaching the software when half the kids don't have access to the software. So they had us download new free worse software that everyone could use instead of using the university software. Well it makes sense kind of, yeah, And it's like you can't do a lot of the stuff you can do with other things because it's like a free version of it. So you just go through and one by one click where the notes are supposed to be and just compose and just map them on from scratch, and you have your little drum loop and you have your little automation track. And that's what like five of the songs from Public Void was originally made in. But then I took that backtrack and put it into proachals. So I have downloaded so many random, weird like open source like audio apps. So I totally understand this. But and yeah, this is fascinating. We can have about this for a long time. But when I knew that you were going to come on the show, I started to do some like you know, non stalker but like deep research, at least as deep as I could get because I'm also very lazy, and so what I did not realize and sort of didn't realize at first, and I listen to a bunch of your stuff and it did not occur to me at all, Like you've got a lot of plays on Spotify and like you've got a bunch of records there, you know, albums whatever, ep whatever people call them these days, And nothing seemed unusual about that to me. And then like as I kind of dug into it, like you you became known for your music, like through what TikTok? Is that where this started? Yeah, I would say that's where it started. And it seems like fairly organically, like you were just putting music on there, Like I mean, I'm curious like if it was your goal or not for people to like pay attention to and share that stuff widely, but like you were just like putting ideas on TikTok? Is that is that right? Yeah? I mean, okay, I had had a band camp for a while where I was just storing the music projects. And then I would say, I don't even know when this happened, probably like download TikTok and I'm like these are fun I like these videos, and then I start seeing my friends post and I'm like, I should post some videos. What am I good at? Well, I'm good at dicking around in my dorm room and I'm also good at playing music, so I'll combine those two things. And then when the music videos started doing well, I had to like real quick takedown all the stuff that like was you did not like match the quality. Yeah, the stuff that was just like my idiot friends, like cart wheeling down the hall. I had to be like, maybe we don't broadcast this any See what you're saying is like there could have been another version of this where you got really popular for cart wheeling down a hall or something. Yeah, yeah, there definitely was another version which would have been interesting, but no, the music thing ended up being the thing, and I went with it. I mean, what's the first thing that you that you posted that I felt like it took on something, you know, beyond like sort of your like friends reach or whatever. Um. It was born to run and it was sweet Hibiscus Tea and I don't remember which got traction first, but both of them got popular towards the end of the school year. So it would have been like what like May August or May. No, that's not right, that's not right at all. I'm I'm sorry. This is pandemic memory, so I'm totally blurring all the timeline. But yeah, basically towards the end of the year is that, um god, I don't even know, do you know? You know? I don't, I don't know, I don't don't. I want to say public void you release in so right, I could be wrong about that, but sure, Like I'm not sure it's okay. It's been a fucked up couple of years. I think we're all I think we're all confused about what's been happening. But let's just say from the last in the last couple of years, you've been doing a lot of this. But like what was interesting to me is, and I did not even take into account at all, is that the kind of core the source of this is TikTok. I mean, maybe there's other places that I don't know about, like you mentioned band camp, but like on TikTok as I kind of delved into your stuff there and then like you're the community, like not only did these songs sort of take on a life of their own, which I mean, I'm kind of curious, Like there's all these different versions of your songs, like they're sped up or they're slowed down, or they're like weirdly remixed or whatever. What is that like, Like, what's the experience of just having that stuff kind of spit back got you in a in a different form. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. There's two aspects to this, right. There's like the audio aspect, where it's like it's always surreal to see your own content reappear on someone else's account in any way, and like, especially if you're on YouTube and it's like, you know, feel better for four hours looped reverb added like rat but you're in the bathroom at a party. It's just that is interesting. It's just like, yeah, I don't know if RAT but you're in the bathroom of a party specifically exists, but yes, that that genre, right, It's like this thing a lot, but slightly tweaked in some weird way. Yeah. Well, the other aspect of it is just the fact that the kind of music I was making in like THEO, like this whole little range is influenced by stuff I'm seeing online. So of course my algorithm of what I'm showing online is going to sometimes include stuff that is made with my own songs, and that gets very infinity mirror where you're watching content and it throws you your own song reverbed slowed down and and and it's just like bizarre. Is that, like, I mean, what do you do with that? Like I'm curious, Like there's the whole like content game right where it's like I don't know if you're listed as being like the sound or whatever, but is that good for you? If you like it? So do you have to kind of like listen to it like it or do you like just quickly move past it? What's the right move there for you? Um? I would say there's really no right move because, um, you know, the kind of money that you get for one little clip of your song used in a video streamed once is just like it's not really It's not like I would be generating revenue more or less by like watching my own videos. Right, You're not just sitting there all day listening to that unrepeat And even if you did, I mean, that gets very like snaking in its own tail. That that's just not a territory. But also I don't want to say, like I never want to see content like this because I maybe I do want to hear other musicians and does the how do I tell the app that that's me and that's why I don't want to see it? Right? Yeah, you would think maybe at some point that they would be able to give artists and control like hey, that's me, Like that's me control or something. I mean, I don't know how too much of TikTok is thinking about it, but you know, they have other problems. I'm sure. The other thing that that happens is that you're in like conversation with like the people who are listening to and reusing your music in a way that I find and listen again, I'm very old, but I find interesting and unusual and perhaps daunting, like I watched a handful of videos of yours. One. You're responding to people who are using your music in a way that I think, I don't say, like you didn't like, but like definitely using it in a way that you know elicited the response from you. And then people are like kind of like questioning like your lyrics and stuff, and you're responding to them directly like does that feel like a necessary evil? Like if you're going to be doing this stuff on TikTok Um. I guess so. I mean, so I haven't been like super involved in TikTok and like, oh man, probably like the last year, like I really came on the scene, got really invested, found some support, which is great. But then it got to a point, like when I was starting to think about putting hazards out. I think was the time period where I'm like getting an arguments about discourse that I just know nothing about, and that was the point where I was like, I'm out of here. Man, I'm not an expert on any of these topics. There's no reason I would have meaningful insight here. I saw you responding to like people questioning the lyrics of a lot of true crime, which is, you know, you talk about Ted Bunny being white or whatever. People are like I guess taking taking issue with like I wasn't even sure like what the issue was, like because you, like, I think Ted Bunny's whiteness is like pretty important and like the world of like what Ted Bundy did, but it is an unusual thing to like to be kind of like questioned in such a infantestimal way about the work, like was it just like an unsustainable sort of conversation to have with people? Okay, well, first of all, yes, it was unsustainable for me. Um. I think there are some people who are willing to have that be the work that they do and they find meaning in it, but that is just not I don't enjoy getting involved in like arguments online. I like a good argument, to be clear, Like I think it's fun to like hash out the details of these scenarios and like, you know what am I saying with this song? Like what does it really mean? But it's just not feasible to like, I don't know, I don't know. The thing that was interesting to me about that situation, though, the like a lot of true crime situation is that people take I shouldn't even say this, but it was beginning to happen that people were taking my art and the art of other people that I was like kind of keeping an eye on at face value. So if you're writing a song and you say I listened to a lot of true crime, I do. Whatever these things are, you have people who are taking that the way you would take a primary source. Because the academic integrity of social media is like very up in the air. We have no way to cite a lot of these things meaningfully. Like I did a paper recently where I was citing a lot of online content and it's like, oh, like the institutions that have to do with knowledge have not caught up to how we legitimize any of this, and so you have these weird situations where it's like you're saying something in a song and people are treating it like you're saying that as a statement, and it's like, well, no, because part of what's cool about songs is that they don't have to be from your specific intellectual or experiential perspective, you know what I mean. So it's like, why am I defending a character? A song could be a story, right, Like it often is right that you're telling. I mean, it's interesting you're sort of talking about in some way context collapse, which is huge, Like I think like you talking to people about like them calling out that you're saying Ted Bundy's white, and that's there's some issue with that or something feels like a contextual collapse in some way where it's like if you take the song and its totality to your point as a story that you're telling, you would understand it better in that context, but you don't have that, you know, in the format of TikTok, Like there's no like, I know, cliffs notes or whatever for what you're doing. Right, Yeah, I guess that is a lack of context. I guess for me, I found myself arguing in favor of the point that I was trying to make, and I was trying to make a point. It's not that that wasn't true, Like I did have the points that I set out to explore. And this is hard too, because when you're reading the comments, that comes at you like a monolith, but what's actually happening is, of course a wide variety of perspectives, some of which have nothing to do with each other, and so it's hard to discern. But like in hindsight, it's like there were people who were saying, like, I don't like your tone in this song because you sound like bitchy. And then there were some people saying like, I don't like this tone in your song. It's unrelated to the rest of this stuff. And then there's a significant chunk of people who are like, I don't like that you are disrespecting the intelligence of serial killers. That I idolized, and it's like, so these are three extremely different points that I like, that is a wide range, it's a wide right, and it's like it's I should specify. I don't think that most of the people who were like, what do you mean to buy the genius? Like they thought that the point I was making is like he's sucks because he murders, And they were coming back with like, you can be smart and murder. Oh my god, No, I mean yes, but it was actually happening was a totally different argument. No, But but like, are there is that is that a group of people who are like, you need to respect Ted Bundy because like, I don't think that opinion is really super valid. No, No, So this is actually much more interesting because this is this is the misunderstanding, right, we think there are people who are like, you need to respect Ted Bundy, But what's actually happening is that those are people who are upset that you would question the mechanisms by which we categorize certain people as smart. One of the criticisms being why are you categorizing this person is smart if what they're proficient at is murdering girls? And that's the real conversation, it's like, you know, for me, yes, for me absolutely. First off, that's super interesting and like a level of discourse on this particular topic that I have not engaged with, which is like, you know, honestly kind of surprising because I've been pretty online for most of my adult life. But like, what's really interesting on top a layer on top of all this is like this is just people who are like nitpicking your art basically right, literally, like you know, the everyone's a critic thing is on full display in this situation where there is a subset of people who can find like pretty much any lyric problematic for them for for a different reason, which is, you know, it seems daunting, Like I don't know that that artists at any other period in the world had to experience such a specific taking apart or picking a part of their of their art, writer of their craft, Like that seems deranged. Yeah, well yeah, and that is part of why I had to kind of take a step back, because, as you can tell, the topics that I'm interested in on this level, I can like totally rant about I enjoy this, Like, well, why do you want them to be smart? It's because you care about smartness, and that's what we're I'm actually talking about, Like, let's get into it, let's get academic with it, let's get weird. But like at the end of the day, it's like what I should have said was this is a story and a song, And I don't understand why you're trying to drag me into like a like a debate about the truth of something that is a work of fiction, you know, right, I mean, I think the level that you're on in the argument of this conversation about like why somebody wants somebody to be represented as smart or not smart based on like some quality that they have, which is, by the way, super fucking out there. Like I mean, most people will not entertain such a conversation, but certainly online there is a deep pool of people who want to talk about that kind of off. I mean, it's an interesting argument, but like, can you have that argument at scale on TikTok? You know what I mean? Like is that the environment? Well, you know, maybe for somebody, as it turns out, not for me. Um, because I enjoy these topics, but it's just not a good format for them. I don't think you have a song called rat what you mentioned, which I now own the shirt, the Rat shirt, because I was like, that's a pretty good design and I need more black shirts and I love supporting artists. It's a good shirt, by the way, It's like a good fit, like high quality. But that song is like a lot about Elon Musk from what I can tell, I'm not I'm not an expert. Actually I'm kind of an expert on that topic. I mean, the song is a lot about Elon Musk and people like Elon Muskin. Also sort of like people who like Elon Musk, and you are highly fucking argumentative in that, like it's not a tame opinion. You're not like, oh, I have a kind of middle of the road take on Elon Musk. Like talk about Rat for a second, talk about the song, and also for people who haven't heard it, maybe explain the concept of it. Yeah, so let's see what to say about Rat. I wrote Rat pretty late in the game. With regard to the rest of the songs on Public void Um, feel Better was old and I spruced it up a little to put it with the others. But most of the others I had been working on kind of the summer before I released the whole album. Rat was one of those ones where you start typing into the notes app and you're like, that kind of goes together. Actually, this is all tied to the same idea now that I think about it, And then you have a song and I threw it together. I didn't spend a ton of time making it be totally perfect, like I often like to nitpick with my songs and with my production, and in this one I didn't, And I tacked it onto the end of the album because I was like, this is not going to be to most people's taste. This is a weird one that I've made. I will hide it at the end where all the bad songs go, and then nobody will hear it. Yeah, this is classic. Yeah. What was the v H one show where they would like document some hit song or whatever, And on every one of those there was either one of two takes on the song that became the huge hit, which was either I heard this and I thought it was complete ship or I heard this and I knew it was going to be a hit. When you're so close to it, you can't really tell which way it's going to break, you know, all right, so you stick it at the end of the record. Yeah, I stick it at the end of the record, and I'm like, I will also say, like, I was surprised on tour. I thought that a lot of the sentiments I had were very West Coast because I have a lot of friends from Silicon Valley adjacent, and then I have a lot of friends from like Seattle, Amazon Territory adjacent, and like, so this is something we talked about a lot. Is like why is it fucking like, like why why always you think things are cool and you want there to be robe loots and they're always mean and I don't understand and that sucks. Like that's what it's about. It's about loss of faith. It's about I like had stars in my eyes and I thought all these things were so cool and all these people were my heroes, and you grow up and you're like, fuck, I didn't want that to happen. So wait a second. You grew up in in like around Silicone Valley or near Silicone Valley, is that correct? But driving distance? Yeah, so so when you were growing up and this is fascinating because I grew up in Pittsburgh, which is where nothing happens for the most part, except the Steelers, And I don't like sports, so it's a problem. But when you were like growing up there, like people like Steve Jobs and these other people who were sort of like the like leaders of sort of technology culture kids there or whatever, We're like, these people are cool. Was that like a thing? I mean, yeah, yeah, at least around me. And also this might have to do with the age group that is the first age group to kind of like join the learning curve of iPhones and like smartphones. But I mean, because people forget that all these things are so into your psychology as a child too, Like it's technology, it's not just about like and then the country did this, and then the country did that. It's like you're fond memories of being loved and being excited about things. Is there a phone in them? What was it like? Like these things are so deep to your core memories. So yeah, and I would say that, like I don't know, Yes, there's a lot of love for technology. And I was so surprised I played chose to find that kids in places that were not Seattle specifically or Silicon Valley specifically knew all the words too. And we're just as feisty and I was like, oh, okay, interesting. I think there's something universal about the idea that those people are going to take us places we haven't gone before, and that there is something to cheer. I mean, I do want to unpack RAT a little bit more. But like talking about Elon Musk, which is he has been a topic on this show for several episodes. I can tell you because it's like, here's a guy who a few years ago I would have been like, let me ask him the most interesting question I can think of because they'll have the most interesting answer. And like I, I as well as anybody else, was like, this guy's really fucking interesting and smart. And now I'm like, whoa, this person is a piece of ship who sucks. Like that's really weird. So I think I understand it, probably from a different perspective, but like I can't imagine what it was like growing up around it, because like it's so easy to be influenced by that when you're younger, right, like to have it surround you and to be influenced by it. Yeah, I think I think there's something to that. I mean, I guess I will just say, like that's part of why RAT is the way that it is. I think that there's a lot of talks about like I don't know Elon Us specifically, but like the Elon Musk type that are like, you know, I have the moral high ground and this is what he's doing wrong, or like, you know, actually I was his like I like worked for his company and whatever, and this is like my personal intel experience, Like I wanted rat not to be that. I didn't want it to be like these are my well thought out criticisms of how you're choosing to run your company. I wanted it to be like you hurt my feelings. I liked you, and you made me sad. You know, it's a break up host. It's like literally you say, like you broke my heart right or whatever like that you're saying, like I thought you were going to be this great thing and it turns out like you're sort of trash and you're bad for humanity. So was that a revelation for you at some point? Like was that a thing that that happened in your life? Um? I think it happens over the course of years in most people's lives. I think it's very normal to have at least a few good dramatic breaks in your worldview between the age of like ten and twenty one, and in our case, it's going to have to do with technology where your world is shattering. Yeah, and it's like part of it, you know. I wouldn't say that there was like a specific instance. It's not like I was like standing in the street in San Jose watching Tesla's like fighting, like no, like just it's just a single tear streaming down your face as you Yeah, you're like I did. I thought this was gonna be a better car or something, and now I'm yeah, No, No, I just think that it's you know, a subtle thing, more subtle, more long term. Yeah, but I think it speaks to like the whole world that we occupy right now, right Like, I think it became very popular. I feel like you can find it in lots of different places, but it is definitely something that you see on TikTok on other social networks. Ironically, it's not ironic at all. It's all connected. No, but it's like the disillusionment with like technology and where it was going to take and who was going to lead it. I feel like, God, that's like so universal now. I mean I think you were ahead of the curve to some degree on the severity of how bad the disappointment was going to be. Right, like that song you did like two years ago or something, Yeah, I did do it two years ago, and I think an important part of it like this, for me, this is the key difference. Why can't you have these complex, nuanced discussions about fact in the same medium where you're doing the art Because the song isn't saying, it's not prescriptive. It's not like this is what we should do. The song is ouch, it's sad. I feel bad and I still want to go to space, but I don't want it to be nasty, like it's like you know, yeah, And I think it's really important for people to get in touch with that feeling first before all this stuff about like where do we go, what do we do, how do we make it better? Who's to blame? It's important to just take a second and be like, I am never going to be somebody who doesn't think that this tech stuff is cool. That's I'm never getting out of that. I'm always going to be impressed. I'm always going to love these advancements, and it's gonna be bitter sweet, yeah, right, sort of talking about this um lack of space for this sort of art or the emotion of it to breathe like, I mean, it's funny because I know you did like a Genius video, and Genius is a really good example of this, where literally, line by line, people will go like, well, let me explain what this thing means. And I think I'm not arguing that any art like needs to exist like this, but I think art in some way music in some way in previous generations, where there wasn't constant content and discourse produced about an individual piece of art, you can have a personal take on it that was not informed by or reflected by some other person's like piece of discourse about it. And now, I mean, this is sort of like what I thought was so interesting about the TikTok stuff that I saw from you. It was literally a line from a song had to be discussed because someone didn't get it. And it wasn't like they didn't get it personally and they had to think about it. It was like they didn't get it. And now their lack of getting it or understanding it has become a topic of conversation that the artists themselves must respond to, which feels like, I don't know, like could be a creativity prison in some way, you know. Yeah, I think it interrupts the process of writing music. Yeah, if you're not careful. I mean it's not like it's a total barrier, but it has to be navigated one way or another. Yeah, but you're like kind of not online very much, like from what I can tell, Yeah, I'm really not. Yeah. No, I mean I started following you a bunch of different things, and frankly it's even hard to like find like I'm like, is this is this her account? Like I don't know, you know, it's sort of vague. Have you basically disengaged from like that conversation? Um, I have not been on TikTok in a really long time. I'm still on Instagram quite a bit. I don't post a lot, but I'm looking at stuff a lot. Um. Yeah, like a creep on Instagram. Okay, good to know. Yeah, I totally alert or on Instagram and I will like look through interactions with my content. But I also, I mean, I have a other fake Instagram for sure that I'll just go through and use, Like I don't it's not the public one. But I'm engaged all the time of Instagram, I believe is what they're calling it these days. Um, but TikTok, Like, was there some specific moment with TikTok where you're like, no, I got I can't do this. I think I stuck it out for a few waves of trolls, But one wave of trolls got to a point where I was like, this is just stupid. I'm choosing actively to open my phone every day and allow not even the opinions, but just like the words, the loose, unmitigated words of strangers to affect the degree to which I can make this content being the art, not not the videos, to be clear, but like it's like it became a point where instead of being like, no, it's my duty to look at everything and like take all these criticisms to heart, I hit a point where I was like, I am choosing to be less proficient at the thing that I now do. I should stop making that choice. I should close my phone and go outside. Yeah, but that's kind of fucking crazy when you think about it, because it's like you had this platform, you were using this platform in a way that was like you can make an argument. It's super fucking positive that you were able to put music on it as far as I know, like you didn't have like a huge record deal or something. You weren't like a famous person previously. You're like a human being on TikTok putting music on it, and that it struck a chord. No pun intended, though I do apologize for saying that, um, it struck some chord with people, and then it became a thing. And then immediately or not immediately, but pretty shortly thereafter, that environment became so upsetting or toxic for you. I mean, I don't want to use the word toxic. I think it gets overused, but like it became a not good environment from what I when I'm hearing, and you basically disengage with it, which seems like a real failure of the platform in some way, right like or maybe it's a failure of humanity. I don't know, I don't know. I mean it depends if you think about what TikTok wants, like as its own entity, but not not the people, but the TikTok. I feel like what it wants is growth. It wants there to be this constant new content, this constant new material. And I got to a point where it's like, well, maybe that's not a service that I wish to engage with anymore right now. I mean, if I'm not going to be this rapid overturned stuff, if I'm not going to constantly be like pushing the button creating drama for good or for evil, and if I'm not really a social media person and I'm instead a music person who is for the time being using this platform because it is fun, then when it stops being fun, when it stops being productive, it got to be like a little bit what am I doing here? Right? So yeah, I don't know if that's a failure, that might just be the design. Well no, but it's fascinating. I mean, you are I mean, I don't know how old you are, but I guess you and I are probably twenty years apart in age. And like I feel like that's a realization that to me feels like a because I'm maybe rude, I don't like an old person realization where I feel the same way like I spent like a lot of my career, I mean in a very different way, but like building you know, a kind of like conversation on these like platforms where I mean Twitter is a good example of all this ship that's going on Twitter right now. It's like, you know, I spent like a lot of my career building this like conversation with people, and now I'm like, yeah, like that doesn't feel like healthier good or productive for me personally, and and so I'm sort of like I want to step back from it. But like your person who presumably was raised on this, like I mean, like you said, like my phone was a part of every you know, sort of early memory or sort of important memory when you were younger. So like, it's weird that that both of us would arrive at such a thing. I'm not I'm not saying it's the same experience, but but it does say something I think about the the failings of this stuff, like this particular thing about you not being on TikTok and not engaging with that stuff I was not planning on talking about because I kind of didn't perceive it because when you're not there, you're not there, right, It's not like you put up a sign and you're like, oh, I'm no longer on TikTok. But this is the other thing I want to talk to you about, which is like you haven't put out a lot of new music recently as far as I know, So what's the next thing? Like where do you go from here? Basically? Wow? Okay, where to start with all of that? Let's um first of all, real quick, I will just say I stocked you back a little bit, just in so far as I listened to the other episodes, And I think it's really interesting that the other people that you've interviewed, some of them are like kind of going through the same thing, but they're going through with Twitter. And it's like for me to watch from the sideline. I know really got into Twitter. It was a little early for me and then a little late for me, and it just never hits. So to watch people be so dismayed at like the state of Twitter right now is really fascinating as someone who has no personal staking when we or the other really, oh my god, you're so lucky. I mean, you're just so lucky. Like I can't even it's the worst, shittiest social network that sucked as from the beginning, and like to have any allegiance to it, no, I mean it's like truly was never good. And I'm so jealous of anybody who was like yeah, I just that's not from me. That's so it's funky, and I don't know all these things, all these apps or whatever. It's like, yeah, it's super fun. It's great to be on it. But the part that makes it good is that it's social. It's the other people. It's not that the computer has like the juice in there that you want. It's like, actually the fact that there's somebody, which for me made it easier to kind of get off the Internet for a while. Um anyway, so then I question of what am I doing now? You're not going to go back to TikTok, right, like you're not like I'm back. I would be. I would be open to it, but I'm not going to do it just because I don't know how to stop, you know, right right, that's healthy. I would maybe in the future do some more coordinated posting. I really enjoyed when I used to go through my like song making production process. I thought that was a fun thing to do into showcase. So I might try to do some of those ones again, just like little instructional videos. Well well let me not not to interrupt, but like it, it becomes different right when you are when you've got people now who are following you, and I don't know what you're following is like on TikTok, but people know who you are. There's some segment of the audience there. It seems like some of the original stuff on TikTok was like you were just doing stuff because it was like you're experimenting and trying things out and there was no pressure and no expectation. But it's different when you're like everything you do or or things that you do will be immediately sort of judged or commented on or you know, share it or whatever more widely. So it changes it, right, Yeah, it does change it. Um, And I think you have to decide if you're doing things to generate popularity or if you're doing it kind of um regardless of that, and both are fine, but you have to pick before you do the thing because they're they're different. Okay, so now what what are you What are you doing? Like are you making more music? When like this is like by the classic closure on a podcast like pertain about like crazy shit like online discourse And now we're like I'm like, okay, so when's the new album drop or whatever? But no, I am curious, like are you working at in music? Are you going to do a new record? Like what is the future for you? Like, what do you thinking about working on? Excited about? There's new music and there's about an EP or album's worth that is kind of in my style normally. And then what I really want to do, and I've done this for a couple of them, I think one or two is I want to do another really small EP that's just a few, like fully orchestral sounding versions of these songs that people would already know, because I think that's fun. And I did it for time in my life, which isn't a secret because I already played the orchestral version on tour. But that one was one that I did way back and it had no words, and it was the backtrack for like video I made. And then I went back and just used the MIDI and like changed all the sounds and messed with it and tinkered and tinkered and tinkered and made words and now it's going to be like this insane like string heavy orchestra sound. So I wanted to do that with um with that song, and then I also want to do it with Gross, which is another song that people only know since I've played it on tour, but it's a very like techy almost eighties with the strings, but like a very beat boot song. And then the new I want to do an orchestral version of that sometime. But that's all just about grouping them. The short answer is, yes, there will be a new album. Right. Are you touring currently right now? Or you in between stuff? In between stuff, but you can go and like you're playing like shows with like a ton of people there right, I mean they're like packed hous. I mean, I've seen some video from it, but you've got fans who are going to come out and like see that, which must be also surreal, I guess, because you know it's like you've got online people and then they don't seem real but they are actually real. Yeah. I think there were a few milestones like that that me and my team were like things where it's like you can't guess how it's going to go until it goes. And one of those was can she make it through a show live? Which had not been attempted before I started doing that, And then it was interesting yeah, and then it was will people actually show up in real life versus an internet thing? And both of those, we were like pleasantly surprised. I've also been shocked and surprised by the fact that, like you could do things on the Internet and then go, oh, I'm going to be here, I'm doing this, and then people will just like show up and there's like human beings who you're like, you're this avatar but now you're a real person. But I mean, I've seen some videos of you know, you're playing rooms full of people like singing the lyrics, like singing along with the lyricy of your songs, which is I mean, kind of incredible no matter who you are. But do you like Tori? Do you like that? I did like that. I do. I do like playing live, which I did not expect to. Um. I thought that it was going to not be my thing because, as you can probably tell, as a producer type yourself, like, I very much enjoy the producer angle, and I like to just sit on my little computer and tinker and listen to the same three seconds again and again for like four consecutive hours until I'm insane. And I did not expect to enjoy the performance aspect, but I did. I thought it was very fun. People have always been very nice. So I think I've kept you on this long enough. I just want to say, like I found this conversation to be complete, fascinating and so surprising, like we went to places that I did not expect, and I still have, frankly, many more questions. So when you are ready, when you really are releasing new music and going out on tour again, like you have to come back. And we have talked more about not only your music, which I truly do love, but also whether you're back on TikTok, which to me is going to be a very important topic to to to revisit. So anyhow, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much for having me. I will be happy to come back sometime in the name of public good. They taught me everything just like a daddy should. And you were beautiful and vulnerable and power and success. God damn, I felt for you. You are flamed the words, your tunnels and your tech. I studied code because I wanted to do something great like you. And the real tragedy is half of it was true. But we've been fucking being were elatest whereas flawed as any church in this boom red West Coast Dogma has a higher fucking that word. I've been the apple because I trusted you. It's haste like Thomas mall lose her for post and insane and I hope somedays Salmer's rides are fucking trained. Well, that was a great conversation. I knew I say that a lot. I'm like, that was great, but this one. All the other ones I was lying, and this one I really mean that this is true. It's fascinating just to see a totally different perspective on being online. And I love the fact that, you know, she basically was like people who are on Twitter are sad and horrible and losers and I hate them. No, she didn't say that, but but it interest you see, like if your entire worldview isn't like you know, I'm like a journalist who's been on Twitter from the get go, so I'm like, oh, that's you know, very important, or everybody's on it. He's talking about It's like, yeah, there's just like it doesn't matter to a lot of people, which is I think what we all know and believe. But but to to see how easily the experience. The bad experiences of any social network are mirrored on even the newest social network that everybody loves, which is TikTok. I guess, be real, eventually somebody will learn how to harass and be real that that will be that'll be that. But you know, it's just fascinating to see the gap in experience in an age and all that, but then the same sort of outcome through social media. And I would say, you know, it's interesting to me to hear an artist's experience because I think it's healthy in a way to go, wait a second, Like I'm not here for to interact with people on social media. I'm here to make something. And if like this is a bad place to make it, or it's unwelcoming or it is unsustainable in some way, then like maybe I just shouldn't be making it here or worrying about like the discourse here. And I think that's important. I think it's a sign of of things to come. I think we've talked a lot on the show about this, but I feel like there is a I don't want to call it a movement, but I think there is a change in like humanity happening. There is some part of us that's kind of going, wait, I don't have to be here. I don't have to do this. I don't have to respond to the things that I think or thought I had to respond to. I don't have to be the person that these services tell me I should be. It's a profoundly important step in the evolution of how we deal with each other in a like online society. More importantly than anything else that we talked about is that she's going to be making some new music, and I'm gonna be able to download and like some new tunes on the streaming service of my choice. I assume it's very hard for me to get excited about new music. I feel like I've listened to a lot of music in my life, and making music forced me to listen, you know, I forced myself to listen to a lot of stuff both weird and also very popular, and so it's hard. I have like, very um, what is the fifty Shades of Gray meme? He's like, I have very unconventional desires or something like. I feel like this part of me that is like I have very unconventional desires when it comes to music. Again, then there's part of me that's like I have extremely conventional desires, right like sort of high and low. So I don't find myself getting hooked by a particular artist very often, like I like one thing and then go the rest of their stuff is okay, Or there's a couple of tracks there that I'm interested in, but it doesn't really do it for me. So here's something like one offs like DJ Seinfeld, Godford, I mentioned Fred again, Fred Again. I definitely like a little bit more of Salt s A U l T. This is a band, big deal, Friars Art school girlfriend Barbara and Ernie, Big Thief, Girl in Red. I love War Paint War Pain has become a big favorite this year. Who Are Stranger? A lot of Polital record, which is like a Billy Joel record, but it's like I don't know, well, awkward one