Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host Joshua Topolski, and today on the podcast, boy have we got one for you? Boy oh boy. I'm very excited because I have been thinking a lot about reality and how terrible it is and how I'd like to escape it. I feel like I'm not giving reality a good affair shake. The truth is reality is actually pretty excellent, unless you read the news. I don't recommend that. But there's been a lot of talk recently about a new Apple product that is coming out which is supposedly going to be a headset, a thing you wear on your face that does virtual reality and augmented reality, and suppose will have a screen that shows your eyeballs on it when you're using it, which sounds very normal and not dystopian at all, and I'm sure lots of people will really enjoy that. Anyhow, there has been a ton of great writing done by Mark German at Bloomberg. I am a huge fan of his, and we've got him on the show today to get into the guts of the Apple headset and all of what the company's working on around that. So let's get into this conversation because I have got a lot to say. You are like probably at the top of the pyramid of Apple scoopers, Like you have more inside info on this company than I think anybody has ever had in my experience, and I've been reading, as you well know, I've been reading and writing about this shit for a long time. You are consistently one hundred percent correct with them, which is or like ninety percent correct with them, which is very rare. So first, I want to say kudos to you for being some kind of Apple Ninja's very strange situation. But I applaud you, Thank you. But the reason I want to talk to you is because we are on the precipice supposedly, as so you claim on the precipice of Apple releasing a mixed reality headset? Does VR and AR? Correct? Stop me if any of this sounds incorrect. Okay, they've been working on this headset. It's a thing you wear on your face, you wear over your eyes. It does VR, it does AR. It is a product that you claim that Apple is going to announce. Tim Cook is going to announce on stage at WWDC on June Is it fifth? Is that the date? Yeah?

Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host Joshua Topolski, and today on the podcast, boy have we got one for you? Boy oh boy. I'm very excited because I have been thinking a lot about reality and how terrible it is and how I'd like to escape it. I feel like I'm not giving reality a good affair shake. The truth is reality is actually pretty excellent, unless you read the news. I don't recommend that. But there's been a lot of talk recently about a new Apple product that is coming out which is supposedly going to be a headset, a thing you wear on your face that does virtual reality and augmented reality, and suppose will have a screen that shows your eyeballs on it when you're using it, which sounds very normal and not dystopian at all, and I'm sure lots of people will really enjoy that. Anyhow, there has been a ton of great writing done by Mark German at Bloomberg. I am a huge fan of his, and we've got him on the show today to get into the guts of the Apple headset and all of what the company's working on around that. So let's get into this conversation because I have got a lot to say. You are like probably at the top of the pyramid of Apple scoopers, Like you have more inside info on this company than I think anybody has ever had in my experience, and I've been reading, as you well know, I've been reading and writing about this shit for a long time. You are consistently one hundred percent correct with them, which is or like ninety percent correct with them, which is very rare. So first, I want to say kudos to you for being some kind of Apple Ninja's very strange situation. But I applaud you, Thank you. But the reason I want to talk to you is because we are on the precipice supposedly, as so you claim on the precipice of Apple releasing a mixed reality headset? Does VR and AR? Correct? Stop me if any of this sounds incorrect. Okay, they've been working on this headset. It's a thing you wear on your face, you wear over your eyes. It does VR, it does AR. It is a product that you claim that Apple is going to announce. Tim Cook is going to announce on stage at WWDC on June Is it fifth? Is that the date? Yeah?

June fifth, Monday, June fifth.

June fifth, Monday, June fifth.

Literally like next week, right, Yes, just give us the quick like where did this come from? Because I have a lot of questions about it? Yes, you just share whatever you think is like a good setup for this thing.

Literally like next week, right, Yes, just give us the quick like where did this come from? Because I have a lot of questions about it? Yes, you just share whatever you think is like a good setup for this thing.

Kicked off after the Apple Watch came out in twenty fifteen. They were sort of looking for their next idea, right. The hardware engineering group hired a guy named Mike Rockwell, who was the CTO of Dolby and before that was the CTO of Avid super Into Displays, super Into VR, super Into high quality Audio. They hired Tom Holmansen, who was the creator of THHX, which is the studio behind the audio from Star Wars, which is, as everyone knows, one of the paramount reasons people love Star Wars is because of the soundtrack, right, and so this is a music expert, and Apple's design team at the same time was looking at virtual reality, augmented reality head worn devices, and you know, one thing led to another. They came together and they started working on this device. They did many explorations around use cases. They used Samsung Gear vrs, they used HDC vibes, they used every Nascent and VR headset that was available eight years ago to run demos on demo to Tim Cook, the executive team, the board of directors.

Kicked off after the Apple Watch came out in twenty fifteen. They were sort of looking for their next idea, right. The hardware engineering group hired a guy named Mike Rockwell, who was the CTO of Dolby and before that was the CTO of Avid super Into Displays, super Into VR, super Into high quality Audio. They hired Tom Holmansen, who was the creator of THHX, which is the studio behind the audio from Star Wars, which is, as everyone knows, one of the paramount reasons people love Star Wars is because of the soundtrack, right, and so this is a music expert, and Apple's design team at the same time was looking at virtual reality, augmented reality head worn devices, and you know, one thing led to another. They came together and they started working on this device. They did many explorations around use cases. They used Samsung Gear vrs, they used HDC vibes, they used every Nascent and VR headset that was available eight years ago to run demos on demo to Tim Cook, the executive team, the board of directors.

Right, eight years ago they started working on this.

Right, eight years ago they started working on this.

This is eight years ago, right. And you remember when Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone, he said, this is a day I've been looking forward to for two and a half years, right.

This is eight years ago, right. And you remember when Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone, he said, this is a day I've been looking forward to for two and a half years, right.

Right.

Right.

You remember when the Apple Watch was announced, they said that was about a two to three year development process. Right, We're talking seven eight years here. Now there's more to it, but you know that's a long development process.

You remember when the Apple Watch was announced, they said that was about a two to three year development process. Right, We're talking seven eight years here. Now there's more to it, but you know that's a long development process.

I mean, here's what I'll say. I mean, I want to hear all this backstory, but like I mean, I'm a little bit in disbelief, like if you're in. By the way, your scoop record, as I said at the top of this, is very good. So you know, it's rare that you write something and with this much detail, Like look at the background here that you're sharing and the stuff that you shared in your stories on Bloomberg. Right, And I tweeted about this. I was and a lot of people responded to this feels like the most unlike Apple thing that I've ever heard of. It's like the development process, the infighting. You you wrote about the infighting there, the fact that this is a device that sits on your face. Apple often comes into a market and like it's like there's a little bit of a market and they blow it up and they turn it into a huge market. I don't even know if there is a market for this in a widespread way, because like, getting people to wear anything on their face is difficult. People get laser surgery on their eyes to avoid wearing glasses, right, and I like glasses, Like I'm a glass.

I mean, here's what I'll say. I mean, I want to hear all this backstory, but like I mean, I'm a little bit in disbelief, like if you're in. By the way, your scoop record, as I said at the top of this, is very good. So you know, it's rare that you write something and with this much detail, Like look at the background here that you're sharing and the stuff that you shared in your stories on Bloomberg. Right, And I tweeted about this. I was and a lot of people responded to this feels like the most unlike Apple thing that I've ever heard of. It's like the development process, the infighting. You you wrote about the infighting there, the fact that this is a device that sits on your face. Apple often comes into a market and like it's like there's a little bit of a market and they blow it up and they turn it into a huge market. I don't even know if there is a market for this in a widespread way, because like, getting people to wear anything on their face is difficult. People get laser surgery on their eyes to avoid wearing glasses, right, and I like glasses, Like I'm a glass.

I'll tell you so. A few years ago, they were trying to figure out how they can get the weight down right in the device and the overall size. So you're kind of screw your glasses my front because you're not going to be able to wear those and the headset together.

I'll tell you so. A few years ago, they were trying to figure out how they can get the weight down right in the device and the overall size. So you're kind of screw your glasses my front because you're not going to be able to wear those and the headset together.

Okay, I mean that alone sounds okay. See everything you're saying. See when I hear this shit, what I think is and this is why I'm so like I wanted to talk to you because I this just sounds like it's not going to happen.

Okay, I mean that alone sounds okay. See everything you're saying. See when I hear this shit, what I think is and this is why I'm so like I wanted to talk to you because I this just sounds like it's not going to happen.

Well, there's going to be a prescription system where you pay a couple hundred bucks and you'scriptions.

Well, there's going to be a prescription system where you pay a couple hundred bucks and you'scriptions.

Does that sound like something Apple would do?

Does that sound like something Apple would do?

Like?

Like?

Does it? Actually?

Does it? Actually?

It does? Okay, that specific feature, yes, but if you're asking about this device in general, the answer would be no, this is definitely the new Apple so to speak. Right, right, this is they're trying something new. You know, depending on who you talk to there, there's mixed confidence in how this thing is going to do. But I think the through line, what most people at the company, the decision makers have understood, is that this thing is going to start off remarkably slow. I think even maybe slower than the Apple Watch. Right, actually, probably much slower than the Apple Watch.

It does? Okay, that specific feature, yes, but if you're asking about this device in general, the answer would be no, this is definitely the new Apple so to speak. Right, right, this is they're trying something new. You know, depending on who you talk to there, there's mixed confidence in how this thing is going to do. But I think the through line, what most people at the company, the decision makers have understood, is that this thing is going to start off remarkably slow. I think even maybe slower than the Apple Watch. Right, actually, probably much slower than the Apple Watch.

I would imagine it's going to be expensive too, right, It's not cheap.

I would imagine it's going to be expensive too, right, It's not cheap.

It's going to be expensive. It's going to be roughly three thousand dollars. So I would say anywhere from the high twos to the low threes. Now that's pretty you know, eye melting. But if you look at the XR market in general, they're probably in the Hollow Lens to Magic Leap price range. Yeah, we know those two devices failed.

It's going to be expensive. It's going to be roughly three thousand dollars. So I would say anywhere from the high twos to the low threes. Now that's pretty you know, eye melting. But if you look at the XR market in general, they're probably in the Hollow Lens to Magic Leap price range. Yeah, we know those two devices failed.

But I was going to say, Magic Leap is like a they'll teach the story of Magical Leap in business classes about like this vaporware company. Right, Like Magic Leap was a company that was making a headset that people were like, this is like magic. Literally when you put it on, you're transported. It can do anything. It's the it's the be all, end all, it's the next iPhone whatever. And then the company just has fizzled out, like they'd never been able to ship any real meaningful product, certainly not a consumer facing product, right, Hollo lens. That's Microsoft's entrant, right, which was a mixed reality. I mean, I think they basically wanted to target enterprise, right. It was like a business, a lab maybe like a warehouse type of device you might use like for some ar assisted stuff. That's also kind of fizzled, right, it has.

But I was going to say, Magic Leap is like a they'll teach the story of Magical Leap in business classes about like this vaporware company. Right, Like Magic Leap was a company that was making a headset that people were like, this is like magic. Literally when you put it on, you're transported. It can do anything. It's the it's the be all, end all, it's the next iPhone whatever. And then the company just has fizzled out, like they'd never been able to ship any real meaningful product, certainly not a consumer facing product, right, Hollo lens. That's Microsoft's entrant, right, which was a mixed reality. I mean, I think they basically wanted to target enterprise, right. It was like a business, a lab maybe like a warehouse type of device you might use like for some ar assisted stuff. That's also kind of fizzled, right, it has.

But Apple's going to shoehorn this thing into working out. I mean that's my belief.

But Apple's going to shoehorn this thing into working out. I mean that's my belief.

You think this is not only that this is going to happen for real, you believe that that they're going to announce this product.

You think this is not only that this is going to happen for real, you believe that that they're going to announce this product.

I'm in trouble if they don't.

I'm in trouble if they don't.

But yes, right of course, yes, But I mean, you know, listen, the way you write it, though, is the kind of product that they could get very close to and then look at it, do the demo and say, you know what, like it's not there yet, right, Like that that has happened well.

But yes, right of course, yes, But I mean, you know, listen, the way you write it, though, is the kind of product that they could get very close to and then look at it, do the demo and say, you know what, like it's not there yet, right, Like that that has happened well.

Back to the like the more comparing the timelines on development processes three years for the previous two products and then eight years for this. Let's see, this has been delayed three or four times. The original original original pipe dream was twenty twenty. Obviously that got pushed to twenty one, then twenty two, and then twenty three. They were going to announce it in January, then they were gonna announce it in the spring. Right, and here we are WWDC. It's it's locked, It's it's locked and loaded. At this point, I don't see any way around that.

Back to the like the more comparing the timelines on development processes three years for the previous two products and then eight years for this. Let's see, this has been delayed three or four times. The original original original pipe dream was twenty twenty. Obviously that got pushed to twenty one, then twenty two, and then twenty three. They were going to announce it in January, then they were gonna announce it in the spring. Right, and here we are WWDC. It's it's locked, It's it's locked and loaded. At this point, I don't see any way around that.

Can you describe it like physically? Do you know? Have you seen it? Have you tried it?

Can you describe it like physically? Do you know? Have you seen it? Have you tried it?

I have not tried it. I've tried the Quest three, but I have not tried this one.

I have not tried it. I've tried the Quest three, but I have not tried this one.

Okay, but the Quest three is not we're not talking it. That's not in the same ballpark. No I know has this right? So you wrote about it having an external battery pack. First off, is that staying.

Okay, but the Quest three is not we're not talking it. That's not in the same ballpark. No I know has this right? So you wrote about it having an external battery pack. First off, is that staying.

You know, like the mag Safe battery like they started selling a few years that you can put on the back of the iPhone anchor if you other companies sell that looks like that about bigger. It's about the size of an iPhone and you connected over a cable. The cable is lodged into the battery pack, you plug it into the headset and it goes over a wire. And the two considerations there were safety and weight. Obviously, with the product like this, you wanted as portable as possible and as light as possible, right, and getting the battery out of there was a big help in my thinking, is even though they wanted to get the battery in there initially, and even though for these types of products you do want the battery to eventually be in the frame itself. Remember the Apple Wash they launched with one day of battery life, and the initial speculation was, oh, over time, they're going to increase the battery life. Now sure, ten years later we got the Apple Watch Ultro.

You know, like the mag Safe battery like they started selling a few years that you can put on the back of the iPhone anchor if you other companies sell that looks like that about bigger. It's about the size of an iPhone and you connected over a cable. The cable is lodged into the battery pack, you plug it into the headset and it goes over a wire. And the two considerations there were safety and weight. Obviously, with the product like this, you wanted as portable as possible and as light as possible, right, and getting the battery out of there was a big help in my thinking, is even though they wanted to get the battery in there initially, and even though for these types of products you do want the battery to eventually be in the frame itself. Remember the Apple Wash they launched with one day of battery life, and the initial speculation was, oh, over time, they're going to increase the battery life. Now sure, ten years later we got the Apple Watch Ultro.

Yeah, it's only a little bit increased. It's like, right, two three days instead of one. It's not that great, that's right.

Yeah, it's only a little bit increased. It's like, right, two three days instead of one. It's not that great, that's right.

But in what they did, they had two options, right, they had let's add to the battery life, or let's add more and more power and functionality without reducing the battery life.

But in what they did, they had two options, right, they had let's add to the battery life, or let's add more and more power and functionality without reducing the battery life.

Right.

Right.

They've done that with the iPad as well. Obviously, the iPhone's a bit different they had to go in a situation where they had to increase the performance and increase battery life. Right, but I think the headset were probably locked into this external battery situation for years to come, and ideas people are gonna be okay with that, let's add more performance rather than sort of taper it down and get the battery back inside. I want to talk about the naming thing.

They've done that with the iPad as well. Obviously, the iPhone's a bit different they had to go in a situation where they had to increase the performance and increase battery life. Right, but I think the headset were probably locked into this external battery situation for years to come, and ideas people are gonna be okay with that, let's add more performance rather than sort of taper it down and get the battery back inside. I want to talk about the naming thing.

For a minute though, Yeah, yeah, please do it, please do So.

For a minute though, Yeah, yeah, please do it, please do So.

They've trademarked quite a few names, right, So, they trademarked the name Reality one. They trademarked the name Reality Pro. They've trademarked a few potential operating system names. They've trademarked the name Reality OS. They've trade marked the name XROS. They've trademarked the name Reality PROS and XR pros. Right, here's what I can tell you for fact, Right, for fact, the OS itself is going to be called XR OS.

They've trademarked quite a few names, right, So, they trademarked the name Reality one. They trademarked the name Reality Pro. They've trademarked a few potential operating system names. They've trademarked the name Reality OS. They've trade marked the name XROS. They've trademarked the name Reality PROS and XR pros. Right, here's what I can tell you for fact, Right, for fact, the OS itself is going to be called XR OS.

Right.

Right.

They were originally going to call it Reality OS. It was sort of the working title, so to speak. It was your this is my next before the verbs. Right.

They were originally going to call it Reality OS. It was sort of the working title, so to speak. It was your this is my next before the verbs. Right.

We don't like that, yeah, yeah, right, So it was.

We don't like that, yeah, yeah, right, So it was.

Going to be Reality OS, and then last year they moved from the working title to the real name, which is XR OS right. Now. I think there are a couple of reasons for that. One. I think the word reality probably doesn't translate so cleanly internationally, right, But I think it's a more understandable term, at least in the English language than x R.

Going to be Reality OS, and then last year they moved from the working title to the real name, which is XR OS right. Now. I think there are a couple of reasons for that. One. I think the word reality probably doesn't translate so cleanly internationally, right, But I think it's a more understandable term, at least in the English language than x R.

Right. Yeah, XR sounds like a motorcycle, right.

Right. Yeah, XR sounds like a motorcycle, right.

But it also sounds a little bit more high tech, right, And Apples tries to sort of bridge that idea of mixing tech with you know, mass understanding. So it's a little odd there. But this is a highly technical product, and I think it's initially going to appeal to a very niche audience, So perhaps it makes sense. What they really are trying to do is sort of, in their minds, create this x mixed reality market, and so it would help them own that market from a marketing standpoint, the XR market. Back to the naming conventions, so they went from reality OS right to XROS. And if you have an operating system called reality OS, the logic would be that the device itself would be called the reality right or the Reality pro, just like the iPad runs iPad OS, the watch, watch OS, TV t v OS et cetera. Right, they've switched to XROS on the operating system name. Does that mean the device is called the XR Pro running XROS. Does it make sense to have a Reality Pro running XROS or does it make more sense to have an XR pro running XROS? What Apple release a product called the XR Pro, Like the mass consumer is not going to know what XR pro means? Right? And so those are the questions I'd like to see answered, which will obviously be answered. It's WWDC, Right, That's what's been on my mind lately.

But it also sounds a little bit more high tech, right, And Apples tries to sort of bridge that idea of mixing tech with you know, mass understanding. So it's a little odd there. But this is a highly technical product, and I think it's initially going to appeal to a very niche audience, So perhaps it makes sense. What they really are trying to do is sort of, in their minds, create this x mixed reality market, and so it would help them own that market from a marketing standpoint, the XR market. Back to the naming conventions, so they went from reality OS right to XROS. And if you have an operating system called reality OS, the logic would be that the device itself would be called the reality right or the Reality pro, just like the iPad runs iPad OS, the watch, watch OS, TV t v OS et cetera. Right, they've switched to XROS on the operating system name. Does that mean the device is called the XR Pro running XROS. Does it make sense to have a Reality Pro running XROS or does it make more sense to have an XR pro running XROS? What Apple release a product called the XR Pro, Like the mass consumer is not going to know what XR pro means? Right? And so those are the questions I'd like to see answered, which will obviously be answered. It's WWDC, Right, That's what's been on my mind lately.

That's interesting. XR is I mean presumably that means mixed reality, right? Is that what we're supposed to be XR is? Or I mean x has usually not used the mixed but crossed reality, mixed reality whatever let's call it. That makes sense in a global way of describing it, right, like the for the format. Forget about whether they call it reality or XR. Look, I've seen a lot of really impressive demos of mixed reality, and I'm sure you have as well. I've seen a lot of and no doubt Apple can do this better than anybody. Like, I'm not questioning that they can't execute something that's a better product, right, we know that they can. They can take a smartphone, You've seen a million of them, and they can make it something really special and really like cohesive. What I wonder though, in what's sort of not in your in that bigger piece, is a question about the consumer aspect of it, the relationship to consumer desire. Listen, as a guy who's tried all the VR headsets, was unbelievably excited about Oculus when they first appeared. Was like the biggest fan in the world. I've dreamed of VR my whole life. Like all of the experiences have not only have they been like ultimately sort of impressive, but disappointing in the long run. What I found is like, oh, wearing this thing on my head and being removed from reality and having these experiences, it's a very kind of like singular private experience that you can only do once in a while. And I'm a nerd, Okay, remember I'm one of the biggest fucking nerds in the world. They also make me motion sick, Okay, Like, those experiences.

That's interesting. XR is I mean presumably that means mixed reality, right? Is that what we're supposed to be XR is? Or I mean x has usually not used the mixed but crossed reality, mixed reality whatever let's call it. That makes sense in a global way of describing it, right, like the for the format. Forget about whether they call it reality or XR. Look, I've seen a lot of really impressive demos of mixed reality, and I'm sure you have as well. I've seen a lot of and no doubt Apple can do this better than anybody. Like, I'm not questioning that they can't execute something that's a better product, right, we know that they can. They can take a smartphone, You've seen a million of them, and they can make it something really special and really like cohesive. What I wonder though, in what's sort of not in your in that bigger piece, is a question about the consumer aspect of it, the relationship to consumer desire. Listen, as a guy who's tried all the VR headsets, was unbelievably excited about Oculus when they first appeared. Was like the biggest fan in the world. I've dreamed of VR my whole life. Like all of the experiences have not only have they been like ultimately sort of impressive, but disappointing in the long run. What I found is like, oh, wearing this thing on my head and being removed from reality and having these experiences, it's a very kind of like singular private experience that you can only do once in a while. And I'm a nerd, Okay, remember I'm one of the biggest fucking nerds in the world. They also make me motion sick, Okay, Like, those experiences.

Have problems, right, I don't want to get too tmi. But the first time I tried the quest this was the original quest. I had lunch before using it. It wasn't so pretty and so, oh my god, you really got to get the IPD correct right, the pupil distance.

Have problems, right, I don't want to get too tmi. But the first time I tried the quest this was the original quest. I had lunch before using it. It wasn't so pretty and so, oh my god, you really got to get the IPD correct right, the pupil distance.

Right, you have to the latency has to be But even then, I don't know that. Like you still are challenged by lots of different things. But so this is the thing, Like I understand consumers wear watches, right, Like I can make an art. I can hear the argument at Apple like, hey, they wear these things in their wrists, right, maybe more people I would wear it if we could give them a reason to put it on. You know, there's already health trackers. We know that's a big market. We could bite into that market. There's already a watch market. It's a big market. We know we could bite into that market. Maybe not everybody wants to wear the Apple Watch, but we can bring people around over time, and they certainly did. Like I'm one of those people's like I don't want I don't need it, And then I was like, wow, I love wearing it.

Right, you have to the latency has to be But even then, I don't know that. Like you still are challenged by lots of different things. But so this is the thing, Like I understand consumers wear watches, right, Like I can make an art. I can hear the argument at Apple like, hey, they wear these things in their wrists, right, maybe more people I would wear it if we could give them a reason to put it on. You know, there's already health trackers. We know that's a big market. We could bite into that market. There's already a watch market. It's a big market. We know we could bite into that market. Maybe not everybody wants to wear the Apple Watch, but we can bring people around over time, and they certainly did. Like I'm one of those people's like I don't want I don't need it, And then I was like, wow, I love wearing it.

I was the same, I could believe it or not. I didn't wear an Apple Watch until the series five.

I was the same, I could believe it or not. I didn't wear an Apple Watch until the series five.

Yeah, I mean I tried a couple of them, and I was like, it's not for me. I wore regular analog watches, and then like the last couple of years, I was started wearing a garment for exercise and I was like oh. When the Aultra came out, I was like, Okay, this is like actually what I want. Yeah, But here's the thing I am not hearing or seeing. And I say this as a person who would love to see a real broad consumer use case. I feel like when you write about it, it feels like this product from that era that you describe as like which where the HCC is getting into it and quest is coming, you know, meta, it buys oculus and they start doing question and again and I get it. Samsung was trying to do VR stuff. It's like many many years ago. This feels like a product from a time when the excitement around that still seem new and like possible.

Yeah, I mean I tried a couple of them, and I was like, it's not for me. I wore regular analog watches, and then like the last couple of years, I was started wearing a garment for exercise and I was like oh. When the Aultra came out, I was like, Okay, this is like actually what I want. Yeah, But here's the thing I am not hearing or seeing. And I say this as a person who would love to see a real broad consumer use case. I feel like when you write about it, it feels like this product from that era that you describe as like which where the HCC is getting into it and quest is coming, you know, meta, it buys oculus and they start doing question and again and I get it. Samsung was trying to do VR stuff. It's like many many years ago. This feels like a product from a time when the excitement around that still seem new and like possible.

Right.

Right.

I don't think consumers have embraced these products and even want them. And so what is Apple saying internally or what are they how are they testing internally? I know they're like the consumer doesn't know what it wants or whatever, but can you give me some color on like what's going on with their relationship to a consumer audience for this.

I don't think consumers have embraced these products and even want them. And so what is Apple saying internally or what are they how are they testing internally? I know they're like the consumer doesn't know what it wants or whatever, but can you give me some color on like what's going on with their relationship to a consumer audience for this.

Yeah, I mean that is a good question. You know, if you pull one hundred people on the street to ask them if this is something that they're going to use on a daily basis, the number is going to probably be incredibly small. What I think is that they see this as a very very long term thing, like ten years long term. And one thing I believe they're going to try to do is position it as quote, the future of the computer. I think they see this as something that's a Mac replacement or an iPad replacement, So maybe five years from now you won't own a Mac, you'll own a headset instead. I say that as being around long enough to know how many people were saying that about the iPad, and I know very few people personally who've transitioned from a Mac to an iPad. Fully, I will say there are millions of people who have right, so don't get me wrong, but I think it's going to play out similarly to that. I mean, the best estimates that I'm hearing are the most optimistic estimates I'm hearing. Is this bringing in about twenty five billion a year in revenue. That puts it on part the iPad and the Apple Watch, which is not nothing. It's not nothing for Apple to show growth that's good enough. They're going to make a big return on this investment. Within a few years. They're going to become the market leader in XR in terms of unit sales and revenue probably within six months, or revenue within six months. Unit sales probably not as quickly. So you know, from a market standpoint, it's going to be a success out of the gate. Apple standpoint, it's going to be a flop out of the gate, I think, but eventually be hugely successful. Like I really believe in this long term you do because of the investment, Yeah, I do. The ga Apple's not going to give up on this, right, even if it takes five ten years. They're going to shoehorn this thing till it works out. You know, the price is going to come down eventually too. You're going to get new features like cellular. There are going to be big enough improvements and a big marketing budget behind it to get people interested in this. Right, They're going to make a whole big deal about this thing in Apple retail stores. It's going to drive foot traffic. They're going to try selling other products to people who are just coming in to try this thing on. It'll be a big marketing exer, so a.

Yeah, I mean that is a good question. You know, if you pull one hundred people on the street to ask them if this is something that they're going to use on a daily basis, the number is going to probably be incredibly small. What I think is that they see this as a very very long term thing, like ten years long term. And one thing I believe they're going to try to do is position it as quote, the future of the computer. I think they see this as something that's a Mac replacement or an iPad replacement, So maybe five years from now you won't own a Mac, you'll own a headset instead. I say that as being around long enough to know how many people were saying that about the iPad, and I know very few people personally who've transitioned from a Mac to an iPad. Fully, I will say there are millions of people who have right, so don't get me wrong, but I think it's going to play out similarly to that. I mean, the best estimates that I'm hearing are the most optimistic estimates I'm hearing. Is this bringing in about twenty five billion a year in revenue. That puts it on part the iPad and the Apple Watch, which is not nothing. It's not nothing for Apple to show growth that's good enough. They're going to make a big return on this investment. Within a few years. They're going to become the market leader in XR in terms of unit sales and revenue probably within six months, or revenue within six months. Unit sales probably not as quickly. So you know, from a market standpoint, it's going to be a success out of the gate. Apple standpoint, it's going to be a flop out of the gate, I think, but eventually be hugely successful. Like I really believe in this long term you do because of the investment, Yeah, I do. The ga Apple's not going to give up on this, right, even if it takes five ten years. They're going to shoehorn this thing till it works out. You know, the price is going to come down eventually too. You're going to get new features like cellular. There are going to be big enough improvements and a big marketing budget behind it to get people interested in this. Right, They're going to make a whole big deal about this thing in Apple retail stores. It's going to drive foot traffic. They're going to try selling other products to people who are just coming in to try this thing on. It'll be a big marketing exer, so a.

Lot of accessories, I'm sure a lot of accessories. Right. So, like everything you're describing sounds very app right, and I think like the long the long play is possible, right, They definitely like the I mean, I've had a good example of something that has never found a perfect home, but definitely there's a big market for it. And they've created that market really for tablets, right, right, And I think you're right, Like I've grown to become an iPad user, and in fact, they just released some greats that like Logic, the music software that has been Mac only for a really long time. They were a music guy before this, right, I used to produce music.

Lot of accessories, I'm sure a lot of accessories. Right. So, like everything you're describing sounds very app right, and I think like the long the long play is possible, right, They definitely like the I mean, I've had a good example of something that has never found a perfect home, but definitely there's a big market for it. And they've created that market really for tablets, right, right, And I think you're right, Like I've grown to become an iPad user, and in fact, they just released some greats that like Logic, the music software that has been Mac only for a really long time. They were a music guy before this, right, I used to produce music.

Right, I'm curious what you think, Well, I'll.

Right, I'm curious what you think, Well, I'll.

Tell you what I think. I think it's fucking amazing. And I have been sitting on my iPad at night, like in my downtime, making music in Logic. Now there's some stuff that's like a little bit yanky because it's like the iPad the way it works is just weird for things where you need lots of windows, like it just doesn't want to do that. But like in terms of a tool. It's like unbelievably powerful and really really good for what it's like what you want it to be.

Tell you what I think. I think it's fucking amazing. And I have been sitting on my iPad at night, like in my downtime, making music in Logic. Now there's some stuff that's like a little bit yanky because it's like the iPad the way it works is just weird for things where you need lots of windows, like it just doesn't want to do that. But like in terms of a tool. It's like unbelievably powerful and really really good for what it's like what you want it to be.

And I think it's going to work in the headset. I think that app run in the headset.

And I think it's going to work in the headset. I think that app run in the headset.

So that sounds like a super fun like I can see, like listen, I mean Jaron Lanier, who is the guy who basically invented VR, who's written about technology for years, for decades and decades, he's really like become like a philosopher when it comes to this technology. Originally, you know, kind of created VR for this purpose of working in a larger space, Like he was dealing with these really large numbers that you couldn't look out on a monitor. So I see the commercial applications there, right, I can see like there's going to be places, like I said, where hollow Lens was maybe targeting, or where magic Leap hope to target where I can see more of a retail or commercial application. What's so weird to me though, is if you look at the landscape of today, right so peak COVID, I'd see this as being a really attractive product, right like when we were had peak COVID, when everybody was at home we had lockdowns, we had like everybody was scared to kind of go out and socialize. Like I think that's when you know, that's when Facebook tried to kind of capture with their metaverse bullshit. They kind of tried to capture this moment of like, hey, we're going to all move to this different kind of like way of communicating and computing and working and blah blah blah. But I feel like if you look at the hit rate now again and maybe this Apple sees that as a market opportunity, it feels like such an off key entry. Like we've seen so many versions of this that had been really rejected and in fact, like none surprisingly, but Facebook's huge pivot was basically rejected as this concept of the metaverse and being more like what I see from society. And frankly, what Tim Cook has actually said at many intervals on stage is like people want less of this, like of this stuff in their life. They want to be less immersed in technology. When they talked about the watch, they were like, we want you to be less distracted by your phone and you can get up on your you know, do your thing. You can just glance at your watch and all this it just feels like it flies in the face of And Tim Cook was a big part of this, right, Like he pushed this, This is like his product in some way, he wanted this to happen. I mean, he runs the company. This doesn't feel like it flies in the face of everything that, like the industry has told us and that consumers have told us about this.

So that sounds like a super fun like I can see, like listen, I mean Jaron Lanier, who is the guy who basically invented VR, who's written about technology for years, for decades and decades, he's really like become like a philosopher when it comes to this technology. Originally, you know, kind of created VR for this purpose of working in a larger space, Like he was dealing with these really large numbers that you couldn't look out on a monitor. So I see the commercial applications there, right, I can see like there's going to be places, like I said, where hollow Lens was maybe targeting, or where magic Leap hope to target where I can see more of a retail or commercial application. What's so weird to me though, is if you look at the landscape of today, right so peak COVID, I'd see this as being a really attractive product, right like when we were had peak COVID, when everybody was at home we had lockdowns, we had like everybody was scared to kind of go out and socialize. Like I think that's when you know, that's when Facebook tried to kind of capture with their metaverse bullshit. They kind of tried to capture this moment of like, hey, we're going to all move to this different kind of like way of communicating and computing and working and blah blah blah. But I feel like if you look at the hit rate now again and maybe this Apple sees that as a market opportunity, it feels like such an off key entry. Like we've seen so many versions of this that had been really rejected and in fact, like none surprisingly, but Facebook's huge pivot was basically rejected as this concept of the metaverse and being more like what I see from society. And frankly, what Tim Cook has actually said at many intervals on stage is like people want less of this, like of this stuff in their life. They want to be less immersed in technology. When they talked about the watch, they were like, we want you to be less distracted by your phone and you can get up on your you know, do your thing. You can just glance at your watch and all this it just feels like it flies in the face of And Tim Cook was a big part of this, right, Like he pushed this, This is like his product in some way, he wanted this to happen. I mean, he runs the company. This doesn't feel like it flies in the face of everything that, like the industry has told us and that consumers have told us about this.

Yes, but I think one of the most fundamental aspects from early on in development was how you make VR socially acceptable and how you take people in VR without removing them from the real world. And there's a few tricks they have up their sleeve on that. One is this external display that they've been working on from the very beginning for the headset, where it's essentially you can see you have this front ole a display and you see the person's eyes who's wearing it, and so like it's sort of like they're there or not there.

Yes, but I think one of the most fundamental aspects from early on in development was how you make VR socially acceptable and how you take people in VR without removing them from the real world. And there's a few tricks they have up their sleeve on that. One is this external display that they've been working on from the very beginning for the headset, where it's essentially you can see you have this front ole a display and you see the person's eyes who's wearing it, and so like it's sort of like they're there or not there.

Yeah, I mean this sounds insane, right, Like just hearing you describe that, you're saying that on the outside of these basically look like ski goggles, right right, this device is something like that you're saying on the outside surface of it, is it covering the whole surface of the outside the screen.

Yeah, I mean this sounds insane, right, Like just hearing you describe that, you're saying that on the outside of these basically look like ski goggles, right right, this device is something like that you're saying on the outside surface of it, is it covering the whole surface of the outside the screen.

Do you know the screen A portion of it, Yeah, where your eyes would be, and you can you know you're moving your eyes and you can you know you're blinking.

Do you know the screen A portion of it, Yeah, where your eyes would be, and you can you know you're moving your eyes and you can you know you're blinking.

And so there's cameras inside of the there's some kind of camera inside of the goggles that are tracking your eye movements.

And so there's cameras inside of the there's some kind of camera inside of the goggles that are tracking your eye movements.

Yeah, eye tracking, right.

Yeah, eye tracking, right.

And so then it's showing people on the outside. So do they think that you'd be walking around in public wearing this headset?

And so then it's showing people on the outside. So do they think that you'd be walking around in public wearing this headset?

There was a demo internally, and not only that, that you would wear it to a party, which I think is ridiculous.

There was a demo internally, and not only that, that you would wear it to a party, which I think is ridiculous.

But I mean, this is the thing, Like, think about a bunch of people at a party wearing the things on their face and try to imagine a desire there.

But I mean, this is the thing, Like, think about a bunch of people at a party wearing the things on their face and try to imagine a desire there.

I would leave.

I would leave.

Now, I'm kidding right now, you probably, I mean, if you didn't have one, you certainly would leave. Right, That's the point, right.

Now, I'm kidding right now, you probably, I mean, if you didn't have one, you certainly would leave. Right, That's the point, right.

I don't think they're gonna they're going to try to make this socially acceptable. The other thing they've done from a technology standpoint, it is a it's a VR headset, but they've shoehorned AR into there as a very core component of it. Because you have these dozen external cameras and you have the crown on the Apple Watch. You have a bigger version of that on the headset, right.

I don't think they're gonna they're going to try to make this socially acceptable. The other thing they've done from a technology standpoint, it is a it's a VR headset, but they've shoehorned AR into there as a very core component of it. Because you have these dozen external cameras and you have the crown on the Apple Watch. You have a bigger version of that on the headset, right.

So it's like that. And it's like the headphones. I have the big yeah Apple they have that big crown on them to adjust volume and stuff.

So it's like that. And it's like the headphones. I have the big yeah Apple they have that big crown on them to adjust volume and stuff.

Right, So it's like going between VR and AR mode, right, and so you are seeing right.

Right, So it's like going between VR and AR mode, right, and so you are seeing right.

Oh, you can dial it. You can dial it to by degrees in and out. Oh is that the idea?

Oh, you can dial it. You can dial it to by degrees in and out. Oh is that the idea?

I don't know. I was described to me as on or off.

I don't know. I was described to me as on or off.

Oh really, okay, because I was thinking like, actually, it's a cool idea. If you could go, like I want, like sixty percent you know, virtual reality and forty percent you know, real or whatever. I don't know.

Oh really, okay, because I was thinking like, actually, it's a cool idea. If you could go, like I want, like sixty percent you know, virtual reality and forty percent you know, real or whatever. I don't know.

Just that that I don't know that actually would make sense.

Just that that I don't know that actually would make sense.

I mean, it's a dial it's just my thought. Yeah, well that too.

I mean, it's a dial it's just my thought. Yeah, well that too.

But also the idea of XR being a spectrum as much VR as you want or as much AR as you want, that would make a lot of sense to me too. I think most people will probably use it in VR mode, but you have the AR mode there too, right. I think that it's going to be a really interesting differentiator from the competition, like I was using the Quest three the other day. There's no dial to go in and out of vr AR. It's like a sending.

But also the idea of XR being a spectrum as much VR as you want or as much AR as you want, that would make a lot of sense to me too. I think most people will probably use it in VR mode, but you have the AR mode there too, right. I think that it's going to be a really interesting differentiator from the competition, like I was using the Quest three the other day. There's no dial to go in and out of vr AR. It's like a sending.

I mean, on the Quest you can switch into a mode where you're to a pass through mode right as flipping a dial on the top of the headset.

I mean, on the Quest you can switch into a mode where you're to a pass through mode right as flipping a dial on the top of the headset.

That's going to be something every headset maker is going to take, you know, for sure.

That's going to be something every headset maker is going to take, you know, for sure.

And it would have to I mean presumably would have to be able like if they imagine people at a party with this, then the view it gives you has to be as like close to one to one of your vision as like you have when you're not wearing the headset, right, because like otherwise you're going to be bumping into shit and like you know, falling on things. Because like you need to be able to see, like imagine walking around and you don't have like perfect vision, like you can't see the law or whatever.

And it would have to I mean presumably would have to be able like if they imagine people at a party with this, then the view it gives you has to be as like close to one to one of your vision as like you have when you're not wearing the headset, right, because like otherwise you're going to be bumping into shit and like you know, falling on things. Because like you need to be able to see, like imagine walking around and you don't have like perfect vision, like you can't see the law or whatever.

Put it this way, I used the Quest three. This was a prototype. By the way, this thing's not being announced for several months. I used the Quest three and it was pretty on point in terms of what you're describing, being able to walk and see what you're doing.

Put it this way, I used the Quest three. This was a prototype. By the way, this thing's not being announced for several months. I used the Quest three and it was pretty on point in terms of what you're describing, being able to walk and see what you're doing.

That has two cameras, okay, right, this has a dozen.

That has two cameras, okay, right, this has a dozen.

Roughly a dozen, so I would say anywhere between ten to fourteen, right, And so you're talking about three to five x performance of something that, to me, someone who uses this stuff was pretty damn good, right, and talking about the metaproduct, and so this is going to be this is going to be unbelievable. People who have demoed this thing like is rocked off their socks. I mean, they've been blown away.

Roughly a dozen, so I would say anywhere between ten to fourteen, right, And so you're talking about three to five x performance of something that, to me, someone who uses this stuff was pretty damn good, right, and talking about the metaproduct, and so this is going to be this is going to be unbelievable. People who have demoed this thing like is rocked off their socks. I mean, they've been blown away.

See here's the thing. It's like, I believe that Apple can execute on something like this better than anybody. Like that's what I was saying earlier, like the thing that just breaks my brain. I don't mean to keep coming back to it, but it's just like I just like, I'm like, even in the best executed sense, there's so many things that are off putting about this. And again I say this as a person who desires to be able to have these experiences, like I think this is a cool technology that we haven't yet seen the end of. But I personally have gotten a little bit deflated in terms of like what it can provide, not just because the experience has been bad or not as good as I would hope, but because societally, like culturally, I feel like we are all feeling really burnt on being inside the box, right, being inside this thing here that we're talking on and looking at this thing all day long, right, being immersed has become a thing that I think for a lot of people. I mean, listen, you're much younger than me. I'm an old man now, I'll be dead at any day now. But you know, like having lived through the boom of this stuff of like the social media era and the phone era, I'm like, yeah, like I kind of want less of it. And Apple is saying, okay, but what if you put your entire fucking face inside of it all the time? Right? That's kind of like their bat here, which seems weird to me.

See here's the thing. It's like, I believe that Apple can execute on something like this better than anybody. Like that's what I was saying earlier, like the thing that just breaks my brain. I don't mean to keep coming back to it, but it's just like I just like, I'm like, even in the best executed sense, there's so many things that are off putting about this. And again I say this as a person who desires to be able to have these experiences, like I think this is a cool technology that we haven't yet seen the end of. But I personally have gotten a little bit deflated in terms of like what it can provide, not just because the experience has been bad or not as good as I would hope, but because societally, like culturally, I feel like we are all feeling really burnt on being inside the box, right, being inside this thing here that we're talking on and looking at this thing all day long, right, being immersed has become a thing that I think for a lot of people. I mean, listen, you're much younger than me. I'm an old man now, I'll be dead at any day now. But you know, like having lived through the boom of this stuff of like the social media era and the phone era, I'm like, yeah, like I kind of want less of it. And Apple is saying, okay, but what if you put your entire fucking face inside of it all the time? Right? That's kind of like their bat here, which seems weird to me.

It's scary, it's scary. I mean, they do make these comments about like you said, they want you to lose it, use your devices less. They don't want you using these things. They don't want you to be addicted to them. But if people weren't addicted to them and using them as much as they did, they wouldn't be making they wouldn't be a three trillion dollar company, right, So there is some nuance there, right, They want to toe that line. You know, what I heard from a few people is that at the get go of this project, you know, Apple had serious reservations and considerations internally about creating a product that would run counter to this idea we're talking about.

It's scary, it's scary. I mean, they do make these comments about like you said, they want you to lose it, use your devices less. They don't want you using these things. They don't want you to be addicted to them. But if people weren't addicted to them and using them as much as they did, they wouldn't be making they wouldn't be a three trillion dollar company, right, So there is some nuance there, right, They want to toe that line. You know, what I heard from a few people is that at the get go of this project, you know, Apple had serious reservations and considerations internally about creating a product that would run counter to this idea we're talking about.

Right.

Right.

They didn't want to create something that would keep people out of the real world. And one idea that they came up with internally was this argument that if we don't do it and do it in a responsible way, this external display, the mixed reality focus, someone else will do it poorly and you know, hurt society. Now, right, that's that opinion. It's a preventative measure, right Yeah, No, yeah, buy it at Walgreens. No, But that's one end of the spectrum. The other idea here is if Apple doesn't do this, Amazon, Meta, Google, someone else will come with a VR headset and destroy Apple in that market. Like Apple was hurting smart speakers and voice assistants and such, right.

They didn't want to create something that would keep people out of the real world. And one idea that they came up with internally was this argument that if we don't do it and do it in a responsible way, this external display, the mixed reality focus, someone else will do it poorly and you know, hurt society. Now, right, that's that opinion. It's a preventative measure, right Yeah, No, yeah, buy it at Walgreens. No, But that's one end of the spectrum. The other idea here is if Apple doesn't do this, Amazon, Meta, Google, someone else will come with a VR headset and destroy Apple in that market. Like Apple was hurting smart speakers and voice assistants and such, right.

The speaker thing I was thinking of when you were saying how they stick with stuff long term, Like.

The speaker thing I was thinking of when you were saying how they stick with stuff long term, Like.

They just continued that after a year.

They just continued that after a year.

Right. There are places where Apple tries to fight and doesn't ever really gain a footholder. Just for for whatever reason, they can't get the fit right, Like there's something about the market doesn't want their version of it. It's too you know, so it's like, well, I just.

Right. There are places where Apple tries to fight and doesn't ever really gain a footholder. Just for for whatever reason, they can't get the fit right, Like there's something about the market doesn't want their version of it. It's too you know, so it's like, well, I just.

They totally screwed up at the home pod at the get go right. And if you think about you know, it depends how you look at these things. If you consider the home pod a major product category, that could have been in the same vein as you know, the iPhone, the iPod, right, the iPad, the mac right, I consider it more in the accessories category, something akin to like an Apple TV or air pods.

They totally screwed up at the home pod at the get go right. And if you think about you know, it depends how you look at these things. If you consider the home pod a major product category, that could have been in the same vein as you know, the iPhone, the iPod, right, the iPad, the mac right, I consider it more in the accessories category, something akin to like an Apple TV or air pods.

It's smaller, it's smaller.

It's smaller, it's smaller.

They okay, that was a five six year development process. Also because there were numerous times where they were thinking, let's not do it, let's do it. They had many delays. They screwed up twofold pricing, three point fifty out the door, awful decision, right yep iPhone exclusive serie exclusive, no app integration, no ecosystem. I mean that was just.

They okay, that was a five six year development process. Also because there were numerous times where they were thinking, let's not do it, let's do it. They had many delays. They screwed up twofold pricing, three point fifty out the door, awful decision, right yep iPhone exclusive serie exclusive, no app integration, no ecosystem. I mean that was just.

Are you describing describing the headset right now? Well, high price point out.

Are you describing describing the headset right now? Well, high price point out.

Of the gates, high price point out of the gate.

Of the gates, high price point out of the gate.

It's definitely not going to work with anybody else's device, right, You're not going to able to use an Android phone.

It's definitely not going to work with anybody else's device, right, You're not going to able to use an Android phone.

With this, it's not going to work with anyone else's device, but it is going to run a million iPad apps when you take it out of the box, and so they are not going to have a content issue, and from day one they're going to have the biggest XR app ecosystem of any provider.

With this, it's not going to work with anyone else's device, but it is going to run a million iPad apps when you take it out of the box, and so they are not going to have a content issue, and from day one they're going to have the biggest XR app ecosystem of any provider.

I got to tell you, I mean, I'm just I was thinking through this. Like you mentioned that they were talking about doing logic. It's a studio app. It is something that people use in professional studios to produce music. Probably most of the music you listen to, either pro Tools or Logic is where they people produce it. So you're saying they just brought it to the iPad. You're saying, now they can take that and expand it to XR and create. Presumably you're in the headset and you can see your score. You can see what you're working on from like the beginning of a ten minute song to the end of it in one glance.

I got to tell you, I mean, I'm just I was thinking through this. Like you mentioned that they were talking about doing logic. It's a studio app. It is something that people use in professional studios to produce music. Probably most of the music you listen to, either pro Tools or Logic is where they people produce it. So you're saying they just brought it to the iPad. You're saying, now they can take that and expand it to XR and create. Presumably you're in the headset and you can see your score. You can see what you're working on from like the beginning of a ten minute song to the end of it in one glance.

Right, all right, let me take a step back. First, iPad launched Okay, two options for apps, full scale iPad apps, iPhone app to x moon't run on the iPad, right, and the iPhone only apps died pretty quickly because they were crappy.

Right, all right, let me take a step back. First, iPad launched Okay, two options for apps, full scale iPad apps, iPhone app to x moon't run on the iPad, right, and the iPhone only apps died pretty quickly because they were crappy.

I don't like where this is going.

I don't like where this is going.

It was a thing, right, and so this is going to be a much better version of that. It'll run your iPad os apps out of the box.

It was a thing, right, and so this is going to be a much better version of that. It'll run your iPad os apps out of the box.

But you're saying like it'll run up. You're saying it'll run a window. It'll run a window, right, and then that's interesting.

But you're saying like it'll run up. You're saying it'll run a window. It'll run a window, right, and then that's interesting.

Right, But if the developer wants to create a native, native XR version of that app, they can do that also.

Right, But if the developer wants to create a native, native XR version of that app, they can do that also.

Right, right, So it's like an operating system literally in the sense that I will be able to open and look at like multiple iPad apps running as I would see them, or some variation of how I would see them on an iPad, like a in a windowed scenario essentially, but then possibly like at a later day. Okay, so so I can So that's really interesting. I mean again, but here's the thing. What I was going to say is last night I was in my living room. I was messing around with logic. I had my headphones on and I had noise cancelation on, right, so I couldn't hear anything, that's just hearing. And my wife walked in the living room and I literally jumped because I didn't know she was there and I looked up and there was like a person standing there, and I fucking jumped, you know. And then I was like, Okay, well, I can't sit in the room with her listening to my like logic project I'm working on while she's like trying to talk to me or we're like, you know, you know, going, hey, we should watch a show or something. Like. You can't be in a room with noise cancelation unless you expressly want to shut the world out, right, Like, I'm sure you've used noise cancelation on your on your AirPods and you know what I'm talking about. This is like noise cancelation for your fucking eyes, I assume additionally for your ears, right, Like, so I'm trying to imagine that same scenario, right, but like you're sitting in it. You're sitting in a room, you're doing something, You're totally isolated from people in that room. It's such a weird vulnerability that I just feel like, I don't know, does Apple really think people want that? Like do people want that? I guess I don't know.

Right, right, So it's like an operating system literally in the sense that I will be able to open and look at like multiple iPad apps running as I would see them, or some variation of how I would see them on an iPad, like a in a windowed scenario essentially, but then possibly like at a later day. Okay, so so I can So that's really interesting. I mean again, but here's the thing. What I was going to say is last night I was in my living room. I was messing around with logic. I had my headphones on and I had noise cancelation on, right, so I couldn't hear anything, that's just hearing. And my wife walked in the living room and I literally jumped because I didn't know she was there and I looked up and there was like a person standing there, and I fucking jumped, you know. And then I was like, Okay, well, I can't sit in the room with her listening to my like logic project I'm working on while she's like trying to talk to me or we're like, you know, you know, going, hey, we should watch a show or something. Like. You can't be in a room with noise cancelation unless you expressly want to shut the world out, right, Like, I'm sure you've used noise cancelation on your on your AirPods and you know what I'm talking about. This is like noise cancelation for your fucking eyes, I assume additionally for your ears, right, Like, so I'm trying to imagine that same scenario, right, but like you're sitting in it. You're sitting in a room, you're doing something, You're totally isolated from people in that room. It's such a weird vulnerability that I just feel like, I don't know, does Apple really think people want that? Like do people want that? I guess I don't know.

I personally, you know, I'm a nerd like you I'll be first in line, right, not freaking wait to try it.

I personally, you know, I'm a nerd like you I'll be first in line, right, not freaking wait to try it.

We'll buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to buy it and use it because I'm a total like gonna, I'm a total freak for this shit. But like, right, but I have I have quests, and I have all kinds of other stuff, and you know, like it comes comes out occasionally, but it's just a very unusual experience.

We'll buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to buy it and use it because I'm a total like gonna, I'm a total freak for this shit. But like, right, but I have I have quests, and I have all kinds of other stuff, and you know, like it comes comes out occasionally, but it's just a very unusual experience.

That's exactly right. My question is is how long until this thing is charging on a daily basis on my desk rather than being used? How long until it turns into uh, you know, something that just sits there and gathers dust.

That's exactly right. My question is is how long until this thing is charging on a daily basis on my desk rather than being used? How long until it turns into uh, you know, something that just sits there and gathers dust.

Here's an interesting anecdote and I think maybe speaks to this question about immersion. Yeah, I started to use my iPad more in the evenings when I wasn't working because I wanted to have an experience that made me less immersed in like the windowed noisiness of a laptop. Right, Like on my laptop, I've got like Gmail open, I've got Twitter open, I've got all this shit, and everything's like pinging, there's all this noise, and on an iPad it's like very singular. You're like when I'm working on logic on the iPad. You know, I'm in like do not Disturb, and it's like everything is gone. There's no other windows, there's no little pop ups. It's like very and you know, for even for browsing or watching shit on YouTube. I do like I'll just go into that kind of like singular sort of focused zone. It's like a bigger workspace, but it's like less noisy and less immersive than being in a computer in the sense you know, it will take time. I agree with you, but.

Here's an interesting anecdote and I think maybe speaks to this question about immersion. Yeah, I started to use my iPad more in the evenings when I wasn't working because I wanted to have an experience that made me less immersed in like the windowed noisiness of a laptop. Right, Like on my laptop, I've got like Gmail open, I've got Twitter open, I've got all this shit, and everything's like pinging, there's all this noise, and on an iPad it's like very singular. You're like when I'm working on logic on the iPad. You know, I'm in like do not Disturb, and it's like everything is gone. There's no other windows, there's no little pop ups. It's like very and you know, for even for browsing or watching shit on YouTube. I do like I'll just go into that kind of like singular sort of focused zone. It's like a bigger workspace, but it's like less noisy and less immersive than being in a computer in the sense you know, it will take time. I agree with you, but.

I'm us it. By the way, I was a big iPad user until the m one computer started coming out, Yeah, because the Intel machines were so crappy and slow and fans. I was like, I need to get anything horrible battery, Yeah, I need to use the iPad.

I'm us it. By the way, I was a big iPad user until the m one computer started coming out, Yeah, because the Intel machines were so crappy and slow and fans. I was like, I need to get anything horrible battery, Yeah, I need to use the iPad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But since I've had this m one Max MacBook Pro, the iPad is not as useful because I actually can get stuff done on this now.

But since I've had this m one Max MacBook Pro, the iPad is not as useful because I actually can get stuff done on this now.

So but I want to talk about that. Actually, like this brings us to an interesting point about all of this, which is like we are very much in the Tim Cook era here. I mean, there's no question that.

So but I want to talk about that. Actually, like this brings us to an interesting point about all of this, which is like we are very much in the Tim Cook era here. I mean, there's no question that.

We're deep in the Tim Cook era.

We're deep in the Tim Cook era.

He's not gonna be CEO forever. Obviously he's not that old, but you know there's going to be a CEO after Tim Cook. This could be his big like moment, right. The era of Tim Cook produced this product, But the era of Tim Cook has produced a lot of middling just okay, not that exciting me too, products that feel like, you know, like like Apple music is It's fine. You know, it didn't change the world. It didn't destroy Spot, it didn't you know, it's didn't iTunes the situation, right, It wasn't like one day we're all got our rios and then the next day nobody is using anything but iTunes. The lack of definition of this feels very of a type of Tim Cook sort of product. Not to say that that and you mentioned this in your article that he's not a product guy. So can you talk a little bit about how this is like a part of his legacy if you know what type of legacy he would have like in a post Tim Cook era.

He's not gonna be CEO forever. Obviously he's not that old, but you know there's going to be a CEO after Tim Cook. This could be his big like moment, right. The era of Tim Cook produced this product, But the era of Tim Cook has produced a lot of middling just okay, not that exciting me too, products that feel like, you know, like like Apple music is It's fine. You know, it didn't change the world. It didn't destroy Spot, it didn't you know, it's didn't iTunes the situation, right, It wasn't like one day we're all got our rios and then the next day nobody is using anything but iTunes. The lack of definition of this feels very of a type of Tim Cook sort of product. Not to say that that and you mentioned this in your article that he's not a product guy. So can you talk a little bit about how this is like a part of his legacy if you know what type of legacy he would have like in a post Tim Cook era.

Well, I really think they see this as the third major new computing paradigm in Apple's history, right, the first one being the Mac, the second one really being the iPhone, with the Apple Watch of the iPad as an extension of that. Like I would say, you know, the Mac is one, the iPhone is two, and the iPad and watch are two A and two B, right, And then I really think this is number three, right. I think they really believe that the future of computing could be living in these mixed reality environments. Certainly more immersive, it's certainly brings a lot of power with it. There's a lot more flexibility in the types of apps you can use, there's a lot more ways that you can actually interact with your content. But it is so early stage one. I mean it really I think could take ten years to take off. And I think if they successfully create this XR market, because let's be honest, it's really nascent, it basically doesn't exist, and they take it into how people use computers in the future instead of laptops and desktops, right, or instead of iPads and phones, I think that's a pretty cool legacy. Right. It's also an extremely big bet because there is a very high chance that never happens and it doesn't work out. On the other hand, Apple has so much market cachet and has so much money and so many resources that I think that this thing. Becoming a massive, massive failure would not break the company. But I think this being a big hit would do wonders for the company.