Welcome to Vocus Inspire, the podcast full of brilliant ideas for business.

Welcome to Vocus Inspire, the podcast full of brilliant ideas for business.

Hi, I'm Luke Coleman, head of government and corporate affairs at Vocus, Australia's leading specialist fibre and network solutions provider. Before we get things underway, we want to acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the land from wherever you're listening. In this podcast, we dive headfirst into what's on the minds of Australian business and government leaders to help inspire you and your organisation to go forward, go further, and go faster. So let's go.

Hi, I'm Luke Coleman, head of government and corporate affairs at Vocus, Australia's leading specialist fibre and network solutions provider. Before we get things underway, we want to acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the land from wherever you're listening. In this podcast, we dive headfirst into what's on the minds of Australian business and government leaders to help inspire you and your organisation to go forward, go further, and go faster. So let's go.

Hello and welcome to the Vocus Inspire podcast. I'm Luke Coleman, and today I'm joined by Liz Abrahams, associate vice president of diversity and inclusion, head of Asia Pacific for Infosys. Liz has a bachelor.

Hello and welcome to the Vocus Inspire podcast. I'm Luke Coleman, and today I'm joined by Liz Abrahams, associate vice president of diversity and inclusion, head of Asia Pacific for Infosys. Liz has a bachelor.

In behavioural science and is a postgraduate business qualifications from Stanford. With over 20 years in the tech sector, she's held leadership roles at Infosys for 11 years, pioneering the APAC Diversity Equity and Inclusion Council in 2016.

In behavioural science and is a postgraduate business qualifications from Stanford. With over 20 years in the tech sector, she's held leadership roles at Infosys for 11 years, pioneering the APAC Diversity Equity and Inclusion Council in 2016.

Her inclusive leadership led Infosy to consecutive top employer awards and regional advancements in gender equality. Outside of work, Liz is a devoted wife and mother, and despite a stage 4 breast cancer diagnosis in 2020, she advocates passionately for health and wellness. Liz, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Why don't you start off by briefly introducing yourself and tell us a bit about your role at Infosys.

Her inclusive leadership led Infosy to consecutive top employer awards and regional advancements in gender equality. Outside of work, Liz is a devoted wife and mother, and despite a stage 4 breast cancer diagnosis in 2020, she advocates passionately for health and wellness. Liz, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Why don't you start off by briefly introducing yourself and tell us a bit about your role at Infosys.

So, right now, I'm looking after diversity and inclusion across the, um, Australia, New Zealand, Asian region, or the APAC region for emphasis. I do that on a part-time basis because of my cancer diagnosis. I have, uh, a lot of, um, chronic pain from the, from the illness. So emphasis, uh, in

So, right now, I'm looking after diversity and inclusion across the, um, Australia, New Zealand, Asian region, or the APAC region for emphasis. I do that on a part-time basis because of my cancer diagnosis. I have, uh, a lot of, um, chronic pain from the, from the illness. So emphasis, uh, in

In terms of, um, their support for me has been awesome in giving me the ability to work part time. Uh, and I elected to come back and do this role, which I was doing on top of my full-time business executive role. This is the role I wanted to do, uh, in the time that I've got left, uh, to, uh, make an impact. This is the thing I wanted to do most.

In terms of, um, their support for me has been awesome in giving me the ability to work part time. Uh, and I elected to come back and do this role, which I was doing on top of my full-time business executive role. This is the role I wanted to do, uh, in the time that I've got left, uh, to, uh, make an impact. This is the thing I wanted to do most.

That is a remarkable story. Why don't we dive straight into it? Tell me, what are the key competitive advantages that an organisation can gain from having a diverse workforce? At a, at a minimum, it's, uh, the ability to have people involved in, uh, problem solving and coming up with the ideas to solve critical client problems, which is at essence what emphasis does. And

That is a remarkable story. Why don't we dive straight into it? Tell me, what are the key competitive advantages that an organisation can gain from having a diverse workforce? At a, at a minimum, it's, uh, the ability to have people involved in, uh, problem solving and coming up with the ideas to solve critical client problems, which is at essence what emphasis does. And

Uh, when you've got a whole lot of diverse people from, uh, different, uh, gender, ethnicity, uh, ages, um, when you have people who represent, uh, the, the solution and the community that the solution is there to, to, to serve, you actually come up with the best ideas. So you've got people challenging each other from their perspectives, and you actually find things you wouldn't have found otherwise.

Uh, when you've got a whole lot of diverse people from, uh, different, uh, gender, ethnicity, uh, ages, um, when you have people who represent, uh, the, the solution and the community that the solution is there to, to, to serve, you actually come up with the best ideas. So you've got people challenging each other from their perspectives, and you actually find things you wouldn't have found otherwise.

And you end up coming up with, uh, better solutions for the client. Uh, and I believe when we do that, we win more business as an organisation, and we build deeper, stronger relationships with our clients. They see themselves in us, and, uh, we see our ability to have, uh, much better relationships with the client as a result of all these different people from the different backgrounds.

And you end up coming up with, uh, better solutions for the client. Uh, and I believe when we do that, we win more business as an organisation, and we build deeper, stronger relationships with our clients. They see themselves in us, and, uh, we see our ability to have, uh, much better relationships with the client as a result of all these different people from the different backgrounds.

Is there a way that organisations can measure the impact of diversity and inclusion on key business metrics like growth, market share, profitability, employee satisfaction? Uh, yes. So if you begin, uh, with, uh, first of all, employee satisfaction.

Is there a way that organisations can measure the impact of diversity and inclusion on key business metrics like growth, market share, profitability, employee satisfaction? Uh, yes. So if you begin, uh, with, uh, first of all, employee satisfaction.

Turnover is the most obvious measurement of, is a, is a company doing, uh, well in terms of longevity of employees, uh, the skill set of the employees, and what is the staff turnover? And you find people leave companies where they don't feel they belong anymore, or they're not doing their best work, or they're not being paid what they think they're worth, because, you know, money at the end of the day, everyone wants to be rewarded properly. So, you know, turnover, I think.

Turnover is the most obvious measurement of, is a, is a company doing, uh, well in terms of longevity of employees, uh, the skill set of the employees, and what is the staff turnover? And you find people leave companies where they don't feel they belong anymore, or they're not doing their best work, or they're not being paid what they think they're worth, because, you know, money at the end of the day, everyone wants to be rewarded properly. So, you know, turnover, I think.

Is, is a really good, uh, metric. Uh, the, uh, the longevity of employees, how long have your employees been not only in the role, but, uh, with the, with the company. Uh, you also have growth, and we measure, um, we have very, very, uh, broad, uh, financial measurements, uh, that affect all different aspects of all different employees in all different roles. Uh, and we've introduced, uh, uh, gender targets, uh, for the most senior.

Is, is a really good, uh, metric. Uh, the, uh, the longevity of employees, how long have your employees been not only in the role, but, uh, with the, with the company. Uh, you also have growth, and we measure, um, we have very, very, uh, broad, uh, financial measurements, uh, that affect all different aspects of all different employees in all different roles. Uh, and we've introduced, uh, uh, gender targets, uh, for the most senior.

Executives, uh, within the business on a global, uh, basis to actually measure, uh, the number of men that we have and women that we have. And we do that specifically because our board have a set of, um, uh, measurements that they are, um, are striving to, and we have diversity on the board, and we want those same, um, those same measurements to flow down to leadership across the, the globe. Now, with 80% of our employees.

Executives, uh, within the business on a global, uh, basis to actually measure, uh, the number of men that we have and women that we have. And we do that specifically because our board have a set of, um, uh, measurements that they are, um, are striving to, and we have diversity on the board, and we want those same, um, those same measurements to flow down to leadership across the, the globe. Now, with 80% of our employees.

Working within the delivery parts of the business, um, measuring the not only the number of women that we have, which, you know, we've been doing that for a long time, but the, um, number of women that are in a leadership role and the impact that that has on the profitability of the, uh, the various businesses. So we measure it in different, in different ways, and we also measure customer satisfaction. We also, um, um, and customers give us feedback on the

Working within the delivery parts of the business, um, measuring the not only the number of women that we have, which, you know, we've been doing that for a long time, but the, um, number of women that are in a leadership role and the impact that that has on the profitability of the, uh, the various businesses. So we measure it in different, in different ways, and we also measure customer satisfaction. We also, um, um, and customers give us feedback on the

Teams that they work with, and that includes the, you know, the sorts of people that they work with. And customers often mention diversity in terms of who they're dealing with. Um, and we also measure it, uh, on business growth, and, uh, the sales folks, which are, uh, the people that are in those roles, have the highest paying jobs. And even though they're not, um, you know, they're not the largest portfolio of employees, they are the front line in terms.

Teams that they work with, and that includes the, you know, the sorts of people that they work with. And customers often mention diversity in terms of who they're dealing with. Um, and we also measure it, uh, on business growth, and, uh, the sales folks, which are, uh, the people that are in those roles, have the highest paying jobs. And even though they're not, um, you know, they're not the largest portfolio of employees, they are the front line in terms.

Of who they're dealing with. So, yeah, they're very broad measurements, but we, we absolutely measure it. And can you share some examples of organisations where having a diverse workforce has helped deliver improved financial results? Um, so if you look, uh, if I start with tech, um, which is, you know, the space that I'm in, there's a lot of, of data that has shown that in our industry, even though when you look at the number of men and women and

Of who they're dealing with. So, yeah, they're very broad measurements, but we, we absolutely measure it. And can you share some examples of organisations where having a diverse workforce has helped deliver improved financial results? Um, so if you look, uh, if I start with tech, um, which is, you know, the space that I'm in, there's a lot of, of data that has shown that in our industry, even though when you look at the number of men and women and

Been pretty consistent in terms of the overall number of employees. There are some companies that have actually done much better than, uh, than, than others, whether that be on their financial performance or on their win-loss, uh, ratio. And when you look at who's in the leadership, you can absolutely see where there's that, that mixture. And they seem to have a sustained, uh, uh, success, uh, rate based on, um, you can see the, the

Been pretty consistent in terms of the overall number of employees. There are some companies that have actually done much better than, uh, than, than others, whether that be on their financial performance or on their win-loss, uh, ratio. And when you look at who's in the leadership, you can absolutely see where there's that, that mixture. And they seem to have a sustained, uh, uh, success, uh, rate based on, um, you can see the, the

Leadership as it's changed. And, uh, you know, you can, you can see whether that business is becoming more profitable, and those businesses range from consulting organisations within the tech industry, or, um, within, uh, the delivery parts of the, uh, the business. Um, I don't think it's appropriate that I name specific companies within our industry, but I can absolutely say, whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe, or whether it's in our

Leadership as it's changed. And, uh, you know, you can, you can see whether that business is becoming more profitable, and those businesses range from consulting organisations within the tech industry, or, um, within, uh, the delivery parts of the, uh, the business. Um, I don't think it's appropriate that I name specific companies within our industry, but I can absolutely say, whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe, or whether it's in our

area where women are in their leadership, you can see the correlation on their performance. And in fact, um, McKinsey's, uh, and a number of those, uh, large consulting organisations did a series of global reports, and they were able to attest, uh, whether it's in the fast-moving consumable industry or financial services. You can see a correlation of a company's success, um, and you can correlate.

area where women are in their leadership, you can see the correlation on their performance. And in fact, um, McKinsey's, uh, and a number of those, uh, large consulting organisations did a series of global reports, and they were able to attest, uh, whether it's in the fast-moving consumable industry or financial services. You can see a correlation of a company's success, um, and you can correlate.

That not only, uh, on the number of women that are in their leadership role, but you can actually see based on the number of women that are up and down within the, the, the business. So the data's there. And I feel like the discussion has moved on as to why this is a good idea. And it's actually moved on to what do we need to do to achieve the ambitions that companies like ours have, and, um, what changes need to be made in the culture of organisations to

That not only, uh, on the number of women that are in their leadership role, but you can actually see based on the number of women that are up and down within the, the, the business. So the data's there. And I feel like the discussion has moved on as to why this is a good idea. And it's actually moved on to what do we need to do to achieve the ambitions that companies like ours have, and, um, what changes need to be made in the culture of organisations to

sustain that change and keep making progressions forward versus talking about why do we need to have women in leadership? Why do we need to have people with disability represented in leadership roles? Why do we need to make it a safe place for people who have different sexual orientations to feel comfortable to work. So, I think, I think the argument's moved on. We should do it, and it makes business sense, but how do we implement it?

sustain that change and keep making progressions forward versus talking about why do we need to have women in leadership? Why do we need to have people with disability represented in leadership roles? Why do we need to make it a safe place for people who have different sexual orientations to feel comfortable to work. So, I think, I think the argument's moved on. We should do it, and it makes business sense, but how do we implement it?

Now you've already spoken about how a more diverse workforce can help with financial results. Tell me about the broader impacts of a strong diversity and inclusion policy, for example, in areas like organisational culture or innovation or problem solving.

Now you've already spoken about how a more diverse workforce can help with financial results. Tell me about the broader impacts of a strong diversity and inclusion policy, for example, in areas like organisational culture or innovation or problem solving.

Um, so this is the area that I feel incredibly passionate about. I've worked in customer facing roles and leading, uh, delivery teams, uh, in my career within Emphasis. And prior to working with Ephasis, I worked for a, a very large software company, Oracle, and I also worked for IBM and also for Logicus CMG. I've been working for 3

Um, so this is the area that I feel incredibly passionate about. I've worked in customer facing roles and leading, uh, delivery teams, uh, in my career within Emphasis. And prior to working with Ephasis, I worked for a, a very large software company, Oracle, and I also worked for IBM and also for Logicus CMG. I've been working for 3

30 something years. So in my time with all the different companies, I've seen that having people from different ages and backgrounds and abilities really helps, uh, people come at problems from a different perspective. And when you're presenting solutions to the customer, when you're delivering those solutions,

30 something years. So in my time with all the different companies, I've seen that having people from different ages and backgrounds and abilities really helps, uh, people come at problems from a different perspective. And when you're presenting solutions to the customer, when you're delivering those solutions,

To the different stakeholders, what happens is people can click with different people that are part of those teams. And some of the solutions that you come up with, or some of the problems that you wouldn't have been aware of that would blindsight you, um, when you start, um, I, what I've seen in my career in IBM, in Oracle, um, you know, where they, you know, the diversity angle.

To the different stakeholders, what happens is people can click with different people that are part of those teams. And some of the solutions that you come up with, or some of the problems that you wouldn't have been aware of that would blindsight you, um, when you start, um, I, what I've seen in my career in IBM, in Oracle, um, you know, where they, you know, the diversity angle.

was sort of new when I was there, you know, when I worked there, um, 19, I think it was 1997 until 2004, uh, and then IBM, is where, where the best work experiences I've had, and in the teams that I've worked in in Ephasis, uh, Singapore, Australia, uh, India, those best experiences have got a mixture of people from, uh,

was sort of new when I was there, you know, when I worked there, um, 19, I think it was 1997 until 2004, uh, and then IBM, is where, where the best work experiences I've had, and in the teams that I've worked in in Ephasis, uh, Singapore, Australia, uh, India, those best experiences have got a mixture of people from, uh,

Different genders and cultures and ages, uh, and, um, people with disabilities and different, uh, perspectives. And when you are presenting to the client and delivering to the client, they respond because they see that. So, um, you know, I've, I've found it, it affects culture, it affects how you feel. It affects, um, uh, the anticipation of

Different genders and cultures and ages, uh, and, um, people with disabilities and different, uh, perspectives. And when you are presenting to the client and delivering to the client, they respond because they see that. So, um, you know, I've, I've found it, it affects culture, it affects how you feel. It affects, um, uh, the anticipation of

Uh, looking at really good, uh, delivery outcomes. And then you can measure that in terms of have I hit my milestones? Is the project profitable? Um, what have been the issues with business change and adoption? And, you know, there's an area that if you don't have diversity of team members, then the cultural speak of, um, oh, I didn't even think of that, or groupthink.

Uh, looking at really good, uh, delivery outcomes. And then you can measure that in terms of have I hit my milestones? Is the project profitable? Um, what have been the issues with business change and adoption? And, you know, there's an area that if you don't have diversity of team members, then the cultural speak of, um, oh, I didn't even think of that, or groupthink.

It is just terrible, and the impact on the outcome. And I've seen it when that's happened. It's so bad. So when you have people who are comfortable to speak up, people who have got, uh, uh, you know, that won't work. As, as a, as a woman, I, I actually, I, it won't work. This is why. And, uh, you know, from a disability perspective, actually, I can't see the screen. The screen, the images are about.

It is just terrible, and the impact on the outcome. And I've seen it when that's happened. It's so bad. So when you have people who are comfortable to speak up, people who have got, uh, uh, you know, that won't work. As, as a, as a woman, I, I actually, I, it won't work. This is why. And, uh, you know, from a disability perspective, actually, I can't see the screen. The screen, the images are about.

Announcing that won't work. Oh, we need to test things differently because it won't work in that environment. In so many ways, it's so powerful. It sounds like it's more than just having the right people in the room, it's also having the right culture that enables those people to speak up. So tell us, what are some of the practical steps that organisations can take to foster an inclusive environment, one that encourages

Announcing that won't work. Oh, we need to test things differently because it won't work in that environment. In so many ways, it's so powerful. It sounds like it's more than just having the right people in the room, it's also having the right culture that enables those people to speak up. So tell us, what are some of the practical steps that organisations can take to foster an inclusive environment, one that encourages

Diverse perspectives. Yeah, this is, this is so important. Psychological safety in a team, in a unit, in a company is like the number one thing. As soon as you feel afraid to speak up because you're worried about, um, uh, consequences or, um, uh, you know, retribution. And I've worked in those businesses, let me tell you, when the company's performance is going down,

Diverse perspectives. Yeah, this is, this is so important. Psychological safety in a team, in a unit, in a company is like the number one thing. As soon as you feel afraid to speak up because you're worried about, um, uh, consequences or, um, uh, you know, retribution. And I've worked in those businesses, let me tell you, when the company's performance is going down,

And you call out things that are not working, whether it's from a delivery or a business perspective, and you get spoken to as if you are, um, a pariah, because you're saying something that is actually gonna protect the client and the business, it's quite terrifying. So, making people as a leader, feel so

And you call out things that are not working, whether it's from a delivery or a business perspective, and you get spoken to as if you are, um, a pariah, because you're saying something that is actually gonna protect the client and the business, it's quite terrifying. So, making people as a leader, feel so

Psychologically safe, that it's OK to speak up. If you do it in a respectful way, if you do it in a way which is not personal, uh, and I, I believe the role of a leader is to give people permission to call out the bloody obvious when it doesn't make sense. It's not OK that everyone knows the emperor has no clothes.

Psychologically safe, that it's OK to speak up. If you do it in a respectful way, if you do it in a way which is not personal, uh, and I, I believe the role of a leader is to give people permission to call out the bloody obvious when it doesn't make sense. It's not OK that everyone knows the emperor has no clothes.

And everyone in the room is barreling down a path which is just stupid. So, having, um, having the ability for all staff, regardless of their role level, to be comfortable, that's how I like to lead. And I am never the smartest person in the room. So I always ask for people's views, particularly people who are quiet.

And everyone in the room is barreling down a path which is just stupid. So, having, um, having the ability for all staff, regardless of their role level, to be comfortable, that's how I like to lead. And I am never the smartest person in the room. So I always ask for people's views, particularly people who are quiet.

And leaders need to be really mindful that some people don't like speaking up in a group, particularly people who have a um a um a, a disability which is,

And leaders need to be really mindful that some people don't like speaking up in a group, particularly people who have a um a um a, a disability which is,

Uh, to do with, um, the way that they communicate. They're just not comfortable doing that. But they're intellectually, the way that they think is unbelievable. So I believe that a leader needs to make sure that they know their, their team, and, you know, I'm a leader of leaders of leaders. So you can't know everyone that knows who works for you, but you should give.

Uh, to do with, um, the way that they communicate. They're just not comfortable doing that. But they're intellectually, the way that they think is unbelievable. So I believe that a leader needs to make sure that they know their, their team, and, you know, I'm a leader of leaders of leaders. So you can't know everyone that knows who works for you, but you should give.

Your staff that permission to be OK to do, to, you know, to talk to their staff and and create that opportunity for staff to speak up. You've already mentioned how important psychological safety is, but as far as practical steps for organisations to foster an inclusive environment, what do you see as the main hurdles preventing that in organisations today?

Your staff that permission to be OK to do, to, you know, to talk to their staff and and create that opportunity for staff to speak up. You've already mentioned how important psychological safety is, but as far as practical steps for organisations to foster an inclusive environment, what do you see as the main hurdles preventing that in organisations today?

Um, so first of all, fear. I mean, I think, um, uh, for, for leaders, it's fear of someone knowing more than you. And I, I believe that's really empowering. As soon as you release that as a leader, then you're free to actually really, uh, lead, and inspire, uh, and understand what's going on around you. And, uh, you need to, um, constantly check with your staff on how they're going and with the customers.

Um, so first of all, fear. I mean, I think, um, uh, for, for leaders, it's fear of someone knowing more than you. And I, I believe that's really empowering. As soon as you release that as a leader, then you're free to actually really, uh, lead, and inspire, uh, and understand what's going on around you. And, uh, you need to, um, constantly check with your staff on how they're going and with the customers.

Customer. So constant feedback, I reckon, is really important. The definition of a smart leader is one that's constantly getting feedback. And if the staff are OK to get, um, to tell you, and you're OK to give it, then you can constantly, uh, make changes into the direction that you're going. So I think that's the first one. The second one is measuring. You should measure when you, when you begin a journey, whether it's on diversity, you should have clear metrics in.

Customer. So constant feedback, I reckon, is really important. The definition of a smart leader is one that's constantly getting feedback. And if the staff are OK to get, um, to tell you, and you're OK to give it, then you can constantly, uh, make changes into the direction that you're going. So I think that's the first one. The second one is measuring. You should measure when you, when you begin a journey, whether it's on diversity, you should have clear metrics in.

Mind as to what your ambitions are. If your ambitions are too low, then, um, it makes you lazy. Our ambition, uh, I believe, could be much more ambitious. Our ambition for leadership is 25% of our leadership team at, um, a particular job level to be women. And we're only halfway, we're only halfway there. So our ambition is too low, and that ambition is to be achieved by 2030. But I've been at this, um, on

Mind as to what your ambitions are. If your ambitions are too low, then, um, it makes you lazy. Our ambition, uh, I believe, could be much more ambitious. Our ambition for leadership is 25% of our leadership team at, um, a particular job level to be women. And we're only halfway, we're only halfway there. So our ambition is too low, and that ambition is to be achieved by 2030. But I've been at this, um, on

Uh, you know, on the, the space of diversity and inclusion, uh, at least for the last 8 years in, uh, in emphasis, maybe longer. And I believe we, we should be aiming higher. And we now have these metrics that leaders have to, uh, adhere to that affect their financial performance. And then the third thing that you need to do, which I think is the most important, is you need to, um, remove people from the business who are not on board with the journey. And it's like

Uh, you know, on the, the space of diversity and inclusion, uh, at least for the last 8 years in, uh, in emphasis, maybe longer. And I believe we, we should be aiming higher. And we now have these metrics that leaders have to, uh, adhere to that affect their financial performance. And then the third thing that you need to do, which I think is the most important, is you need to, um, remove people from the business who are not on board with the journey. And it's like

It's, it's like this frozen middle of managers who talk the talk and do nothing. So when people join a business, they join a company, they leave a manager. If a manager has got high turnover of staff, particularly women, women are really clever, I have to say, um, at, at spotting toxicity in a team. And the number of times I have moved from a team in different companies, um, before the tsunami of poor.

It's, it's like this frozen middle of managers who talk the talk and do nothing. So when people join a business, they join a company, they leave a manager. If a manager has got high turnover of staff, particularly women, women are really clever, I have to say, um, at, at spotting toxicity in a team. And the number of times I have moved from a team in different companies, um, before the tsunami of poor.

Profitability has washed over that area. Um, is now, I think I'm on, I'm on experience number 6. So I can tell you that women I speak to, we don't want the drama. We'd much rather leave. We've got other stuff going on in our lives. And as soon as you see turnover and you see women not staying in teams, you, you gotta be prepared to remove the bias, to get rid of the toxic leader and make changes.

Profitability has washed over that area. Um, is now, I think I'm on, I'm on experience number 6. So I can tell you that women I speak to, we don't want the drama. We'd much rather leave. We've got other stuff going on in our lives. And as soon as you see turnover and you see women not staying in teams, you, you gotta be prepared to remove the bias, to get rid of the toxic leader and make changes.

that are in line with your culture and the direction that you want to go. Hitting your numbers is not sustainable if you're not delivering quality outcomes. Hitting your numbers is not sustainable if the way you do it is unethical. So, you know, really what matters at the end of the day is culture and, uh, ethics and inclusive leadership. They, those things drive good revenue and great customer relationships.

that are in line with your culture and the direction that you want to go. Hitting your numbers is not sustainable if you're not delivering quality outcomes. Hitting your numbers is not sustainable if the way you do it is unethical. So, you know, really what matters at the end of the day is culture and, uh, ethics and inclusive leadership. They, those things drive good revenue and great customer relationships.

I imagine that implementing such widespread cultural change in an organisation can be a bit like turning around a battleship. How quickly do you think an organisation can expect to really shift the needle when it comes to the implementation of diversity and inclusion?

I imagine that implementing such widespread cultural change in an organisation can be a bit like turning around a battleship. How quickly do you think an organisation can expect to really shift the needle when it comes to the implementation of diversity and inclusion?

Um, I, I believe that 3 to 5 years is very, very, uh, reasonable, with the right metrics on leaders. I, I don't believe it's possible without metrics. This is, this is Liz Abraham speaking, not on behalf of the company that I, I work for. We now have metrics, uh, for the first time this year. So, you know, I'm, I'm really keen to see, uh, what happens, uh, with what gets measured.

Um, I, I believe that 3 to 5 years is very, very, uh, reasonable, with the right metrics on leaders. I, I don't believe it's possible without metrics. This is, this is Liz Abraham speaking, not on behalf of the company that I, I work for. We now have metrics, uh, for the first time this year. So, you know, I'm, I'm really keen to see, uh, what happens, uh, with what gets measured.

Gets done now. Uh, but I, I believe that when you put in place measurements that affect people's hip pockets, they think carefully. Do they have, uh, women in their interview, um, you know, interview panels, uh, to actually give candidates the right view of the company and the opportunity? Do you have a group of candidates, whether that is people with disability, whether that's women? Do you actually, does every candidate look like you? Which

Gets done now. Uh, but I, I believe that when you put in place measurements that affect people's hip pockets, they think carefully. Do they have, uh, women in their interview, um, you know, interview panels, uh, to actually give candidates the right view of the company and the opportunity? Do you have a group of candidates, whether that is people with disability, whether that's women? Do you actually, does every candidate look like you? Which

Is a serious problem that we have, uh, in, um, in business, where people hire people who look like them. And that's just not OK, which is why you have interview panels. So you need to be challenged by each other. And, um, and I, and I firmly believe that 3 to 5 years is enough to be really bold and aggressive, to take a good hard look at figures, uh, actions, behaviours.

Is a serious problem that we have, uh, in, um, in business, where people hire people who look like them. And that's just not OK, which is why you have interview panels. So you need to be challenged by each other. And, um, and I, and I firmly believe that 3 to 5 years is enough to be really bold and aggressive, to take a good hard look at figures, uh, actions, behaviours.

and where the rot is and what changes need to be made. And good leaders do multi-level skip discussions, because sometimes the truth comes from people who are a long way away from you. And you shouldn't be, um, you shouldn't shy away from hearing difficult, um, feedback from people who are multi-levels away from you. When I joined Emphasis, that used to happen all the time.

and where the rot is and what changes need to be made. And good leaders do multi-level skip discussions, because sometimes the truth comes from people who are a long way away from you. And you shouldn't be, um, you shouldn't shy away from hearing difficult, um, feedback from people who are multi-levels away from you. When I joined Emphasis, that used to happen all the time.

And I was such a breath of fresh air where I didn't need permission to call the CEO. I didn't need permission to have discussions with senior leaders. It was encouraged. And, and, you know, I can talk to anyone in our company without worrying that I breached protocol. That's a good culture.

And I was such a breath of fresh air where I didn't need permission to call the CEO. I didn't need permission to have discussions with senior leaders. It was encouraged. And, and, you know, I can talk to anyone in our company without worrying that I breached protocol. That's a good culture.

How important is top-down leadership and bottom-up support when it comes to growing organisational diversity and inclusion? 100% the most important, the most important thing. When I, um, first embarked on the, this journey of diversity and inclusion focused on these three areas, uh, hiring more people who have, um, different abilities, disabilities, um,

How important is top-down leadership and bottom-up support when it comes to growing organisational diversity and inclusion? 100% the most important, the most important thing. When I, um, first embarked on the, this journey of diversity and inclusion focused on these three areas, uh, hiring more people who have, um, different abilities, disabilities, um,

achieving equity on, in leadership for, for women. Uh, and, you know, when I began, I, I just didn't see any women in, in leadership, in, in emphasis. And, um, and also, uh, increasing the amount of cross-culture, um, of people from different, um, uh, you know, uh, different backgrounds within the, the business.

achieving equity on, in leadership for, for women. Uh, and, you know, when I began, I, I just didn't see any women in, in leadership, in, in emphasis. And, um, and also, uh, increasing the amount of cross-culture, um, of people from different, um, uh, you know, uh, different backgrounds within the, the business.

Emphasis has a, a heavy skew of, of Indians that work for us across the globe, and we have a presence sort of everywhere. So having cross-culture was really important in, you know, in the Australian context. When I began, the only way that that, um, was possible was I had the support of a whole raft of senior executive, uh, leaders who were all men, by the way. And I had, um,

Emphasis has a, a heavy skew of, of Indians that work for us across the globe, and we have a presence sort of everywhere. So having cross-culture was really important in, you know, in the Australian context. When I began, the only way that that, um, was possible was I had the support of a whole raft of senior executive, uh, leaders who were all men, by the way. And I had, um,

Uh, having male allies, um, all around the business, all around the, the globe was vital, and these leaders at the most senior level, uh, were incredibly supportive financially, culturally, and, um, and, you know, um.

Uh, having male allies, um, all around the business, all around the, the globe was vital, and these leaders at the most senior level, uh, were incredibly supportive financially, culturally, and, um, and, you know, um.

Uh, uh, you know, let's, let me, let me talk to that person where I've got a relationship with and you don't. Now, bottom up was vital because I didn't have all the answers, and I wasn't even aware of how controversial some of the things were that I was asking for. So having

Uh, uh, you know, let's, let me, let me talk to that person where I've got a relationship with and you don't. Now, bottom up was vital because I didn't have all the answers, and I wasn't even aware of how controversial some of the things were that I was asking for. So having

Um, uh, people who are graduates, uh, people who had been with the company a long time, having males and females, and having people from all different areas of the business, marketing, recruitment, HR, line of business managers, legal, having all those different, uh, stakeholders was vital too, because we had voice of the business, including youth, and we also had, um,

Um, uh, people who are graduates, uh, people who had been with the company a long time, having males and females, and having people from all different areas of the business, marketing, recruitment, HR, line of business managers, legal, having all those different, uh, stakeholders was vital too, because we had voice of the business, including youth, and we also had, um,

We had the voice of leadership uh through our council sharing that back, and we were able to challenge based on fact, uh, and dispel people's, um, uh, assumptions, which is a, a, a, a bias, uh, word where people assume, oh well, you know, my wife, uh, looks after our kids and has done a really good job on that. So, I, you know, I don't.

We had the voice of leadership uh through our council sharing that back, and we were able to challenge based on fact, uh, and dispel people's, um, uh, assumptions, which is a, a, a, a bias, uh, word where people assume, oh well, you know, my wife, uh, looks after our kids and has done a really good job on that. So, I, you know, I don't.

needed, uh, I don't need to worry about a meeting at 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock, or, um, you know, I just assume that you've had kids, so you're, you don't want a leadership role. Those assumptions, many leaders who are older, they grew up in a different, uh, time, and the bottom up and top down is vital to dispel assumptions and stop lip service.

needed, uh, I don't need to worry about a meeting at 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock, or, um, you know, I just assume that you've had kids, so you're, you don't want a leadership role. Those assumptions, many leaders who are older, they grew up in a different, uh, time, and the bottom up and top down is vital to dispel assumptions and stop lip service.

I must say we've recently started a grad programme in Vocus, and it has been such a breath of fresh air to have, uh, a new group of young people in the office with new perspectives, challenging established ideas. They've been great to have around. So I, I can personally, that, that really resonates with me, what you've just said. Now, if I could wrap up with one last question for you, where I, I ask you to make one wish. I'm gonna be a genie for a moment and I'm gonna grant you one wish. If you could put out.

I must say we've recently started a grad programme in Vocus, and it has been such a breath of fresh air to have, uh, a new group of young people in the office with new perspectives, challenging established ideas. They've been great to have around. So I, I can personally, that, that really resonates with me, what you've just said. Now, if I could wrap up with one last question for you, where I, I ask you to make one wish. I'm gonna be a genie for a moment and I'm gonna grant you one wish. If you could put out.

Uh, one wish to all leaders of enterprise and government organisations to either avoid making a huge mistake or realise an incredible opportunity, what would your one wish be?

Uh, one wish to all leaders of enterprise and government organisations to either avoid making a huge mistake or realise an incredible opportunity, what would your one wish be?

Don't assume.

Don't assume.

Ask, ask people who are not like you in terms of gender, age, everything. Ask for, um, ask for help to change, I, you know, so if this is about diversity and inclusion, because this is the one reason I decided to come back to work, given my diagnosis, my one wish is that leaders ask for help.

Ask, ask people who are not like you in terms of gender, age, everything. Ask for, um, ask for help to change, I, you know, so if this is about diversity and inclusion, because this is the one reason I decided to come back to work, given my diagnosis, my one wish is that leaders ask for help.

And challenge, uh, where they are on their journey and, uh, commit to that, that change. So don't make assumptions that someone else will do it as a leader, just do it, get it done. Ask for help and get it done. Liz, can I throw a few rapid fire questions at you where I'm gonna shoot you a question, give me the first answer that pops into your head and we'll race through these real quick. What's your favourite piece of technology? My iPad.

And challenge, uh, where they are on their journey and, uh, commit to that, that change. So don't make assumptions that someone else will do it as a leader, just do it, get it done. Ask for help and get it done. Liz, can I throw a few rapid fire questions at you where I'm gonna shoot you a question, give me the first answer that pops into your head and we'll race through these real quick. What's your favourite piece of technology? My iPad.

How do you disconnect?

How do you disconnect?

Uh, I walk, I, I exercise. What's the most important thing that you do for your wellbeing? I eat really well, healthily.

Uh, I walk, I, I exercise. What's the most important thing that you do for your wellbeing? I eat really well, healthily.

What's one thing that would surprise people about you?

What's one thing that would surprise people about you?

That I have a wicked sense of humour. I can see that. What is one personal trait most important to success?

That I have a wicked sense of humour. I can see that. What is one personal trait most important to success?

Passion

Passion

Last but not least, what is the one thing there needs to be more of in business today? Respect.

Last but not least, what is the one thing there needs to be more of in business today? Respect.

Liz Abrahams, it has been such a joy speaking to you. Thank you so much for your time, really appreciate you joining us on the Vocus Inspire podcast. Thank you so much. What a fabulous initiative and thank you for the opportunity to share my views. Thank you.

Liz Abrahams, it has been such a joy speaking to you. Thank you so much for your time, really appreciate you joining us on the Vocus Inspire podcast. Thank you so much. What a fabulous initiative and thank you for the opportunity to share my views. Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Focus Inspire, and we look forward to bringing you more inspiration in coming episodes.

Thanks so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Focus Inspire, and we look forward to bringing you more inspiration in coming episodes.

And don't forget, if you want more inspiration and more episodes, head to Focus.com.au/podcast. You can follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter to stay up to date with all things Vocus. Listen out for the next episode of the Focus Inspire podcast.

And don't forget, if you want more inspiration and more episodes, head to Focus.com.au/podcast. You can follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter to stay up to date with all things Vocus. Listen out for the next episode of the Focus Inspire podcast.