On Vision Australia Radio this is Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.

On Vision Australia Radio this is Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.

It's always great to hear about world first. I think we've got one here as far as audio description with a bit of a difference and New Zealand Opera tell us a bit more about it. We've got the general director for New Zealand Opera, Brad Cowan. Brad, great to meet you. Thank you for your time.

It's always great to hear about world first. I think we've got one here as far as audio description with a bit of a difference and New Zealand Opera tell us a bit more about it. We've got the general director for New Zealand Opera, Brad Cowan. Brad, great to meet you. Thank you for your time.

Nora. Peter, thank you very much for having me on.

Nora. Peter, thank you very much for having me on.

And also from audio describe Aotearoa Paul Brown Paula, welcome and I appreciate you speaking to us.

And also from audio describe Aotearoa Paul Brown Paula, welcome and I appreciate you speaking to us.

And Kia ora thanks. Yeah great to talk.

And Kia ora thanks. Yeah great to talk.

Uh, Brad maybe you can kind of uh, background since you're with New Zealand Opera, uh, have you done audio description in the past? And how is this different way of presenting it come about? Yeah.

Uh, Brad maybe you can kind of uh, background since you're with New Zealand Opera, uh, have you done audio description in the past? And how is this different way of presenting it come about? Yeah.

Well, I, um, my background is as a conductor in opera, so. Audio description. Uh, signing on stage are both parts of my experience of making opera over the last three decades throughout the world. Clearly, Francis leads our participation department at um Nzso, and she is passionate about accessibility and has collaborated deeply with Paul and Nicola, who's Paul's partner in audio described Aotearoa. So when I came in as general director last year, this was already a really active part of the company's offerings to offer access to blind and low vision users. From my own perspective, I came in having done a lockdown project to reimagine what surtitles for the opera House might look like if they were brought, you know, from the late 19th century into the 21st. So we've been doing work independently, and it was a kind of fusion moment when it became clear to me and my business partner, Hugh Glaser, that accessibility would be a really major advantage for new satellite titling technologies. That is, people who couldn't read characters on the screen or had difficulty reading them. That is low vision. Users needed, uh, parallel routes to experience the same surtitles in real time. And that was the problem. Paul will go into this in more detail, I'm sure, but as an opera lover, you don't really want someone talking in your ear with audio description while there's orchestral music or singing going on. And so the beautiful solution for this is that the Braille surtitles are fed silently to a Braille reader. It doesn't disturb anyone's neighbours, and it doesn't disturb the auditor who's hearing what's going on while being able to read the surtitles with their fingers. So I'm sure Paul talked in more detail about that. But for us, the really exciting was a new conduit to real time experience for blind and low vision users.

Well, I, um, my background is as a conductor in opera, so. Audio description. Uh, signing on stage are both parts of my experience of making opera over the last three decades throughout the world. Clearly, Francis leads our participation department at um Nzso, and she is passionate about accessibility and has collaborated deeply with Paul and Nicola, who's Paul's partner in audio described Aotearoa. So when I came in as general director last year, this was already a really active part of the company's offerings to offer access to blind and low vision users. From my own perspective, I came in having done a lockdown project to reimagine what surtitles for the opera House might look like if they were brought, you know, from the late 19th century into the 21st. So we've been doing work independently, and it was a kind of fusion moment when it became clear to me and my business partner, Hugh Glaser, that accessibility would be a really major advantage for new satellite titling technologies. That is, people who couldn't read characters on the screen or had difficulty reading them. That is low vision. Users needed, uh, parallel routes to experience the same surtitles in real time. And that was the problem. Paul will go into this in more detail, I'm sure, but as an opera lover, you don't really want someone talking in your ear with audio description while there's orchestral music or singing going on. And so the beautiful solution for this is that the Braille surtitles are fed silently to a Braille reader. It doesn't disturb anyone's neighbours, and it doesn't disturb the auditor who's hearing what's going on while being able to read the surtitles with their fingers. So I'm sure Paul talked in more detail about that. But for us, the really exciting was a new conduit to real time experience for blind and low vision users.

Yeah. So, Paul, how does it work? Tell us what you've got at your fingertips literally and then how it all works.

Yeah. So, Paul, how does it work? Tell us what you've got at your fingertips literally and then how it all works.

So I have a brilliant, uh, by 40 x, but you could have any other, um, refreshable braille display. You open, um, a link, uh, you get to something called context live. And when Brad presses the button or whatever happens, uh, to make it go, the subtitles appear under your fingers and automatically refresh as, uh, as the singers move on to the next line. So you're reading, uh, the subtitles in real time without having to to listen to the, the the audio description. And I did an article, spoke to the Guardian, and Kennedy talked about the audio description interfering with the opera. And I felt a bit bad about that because that's because I don't believe that. Right. I think audio description does enhance. Right. And I think, you know, the audio traditional spoken audio description, we try and, uh, it's tried to be kept when there's not singing or, you know, when it's lots of repetition and stuff, but you know, you're still listening to that and to the opera. This was being able to listen hard, listen fully to the opera and read the Braille surtitles on my display. And it was particularly important for this, uh, opera because the subtitles had been translated into Kiwi slang, you know, so you had things like chummy and bro and all sorts of Kiwi isms. So the audience were actually laughing at the surtitles, and I could laugh at the same time. Yeah. Um, it's really cool because the subtitles were, you know, that kind of translation. So. So, yeah, I mean, it was it was pretty, pretty seamless. Um, there's a few quirks to get used to. So, you know, if the subtitles don't move for a bit, you end up, uh, going back to the top of the document, and you just have to get yourself down to where they start again. That's minor. You get used to those weird quirks, um, you know, but when it's. Going, it moves automatically. It means you can listen them in the first time the Braille started moving automatically, I shrieked. You know, I just thought it was just quite incredible, you know, that that this was, was was happening. I just under my fingers. I wasn't doing anything. The Braille was moving and I was getting the subtitles for this piece of music that Brad was playing. It was quite, quite awesome. And, uh, I think it has a whole lot of possibilities and probably some that we haven't even thought about yet, you know? So immediately I thought of, uh, non-English films, you know, foreign language films. Yeah. Uh, Maori films here, you know, for people who where they're subtitled is, you know, so if you could set it up at the right time, it could run, uh, against, um, you know, because it's always interesting when you talk to deaf people in it, they all they all go to look at it only struck me a while after that. They all go to foreign language non-English films because the subtitles. Um, it is plain people don't, you know, because there's subtitles, you know, what's the point of listening to unless you speak the language? Well, you know, but if you could have access to those subtitles, I think musical scores potentially. So that people don't need so many pages of music, it would move along at the right time. You you'd need to see how that worked on a Braille display. You know, you need to give it a go. We don't know yet. You know how much information blind people can manage. Some of the subtitles move pretty quickly, but I kept up. That was cool. There was places where we could have added in some of the audio description and writing, so that I got a wee bit of that as well. Um, so I do think it's a work in progress. It's something that we have to play with and see how people experience it in real time, but it's potential I think is awesome.

So I have a brilliant, uh, by 40 x, but you could have any other, um, refreshable braille display. You open, um, a link, uh, you get to something called context live. And when Brad presses the button or whatever happens, uh, to make it go, the subtitles appear under your fingers and automatically refresh as, uh, as the singers move on to the next line. So you're reading, uh, the subtitles in real time without having to to listen to the, the the audio description. And I did an article, spoke to the Guardian, and Kennedy talked about the audio description interfering with the opera. And I felt a bit bad about that because that's because I don't believe that. Right. I think audio description does enhance. Right. And I think, you know, the audio traditional spoken audio description, we try and, uh, it's tried to be kept when there's not singing or, you know, when it's lots of repetition and stuff, but you know, you're still listening to that and to the opera. This was being able to listen hard, listen fully to the opera and read the Braille surtitles on my display. And it was particularly important for this, uh, opera because the subtitles had been translated into Kiwi slang, you know, so you had things like chummy and bro and all sorts of Kiwi isms. So the audience were actually laughing at the surtitles, and I could laugh at the same time. Yeah. Um, it's really cool because the subtitles were, you know, that kind of translation. So. So, yeah, I mean, it was it was pretty, pretty seamless. Um, there's a few quirks to get used to. So, you know, if the subtitles don't move for a bit, you end up, uh, going back to the top of the document, and you just have to get yourself down to where they start again. That's minor. You get used to those weird quirks, um, you know, but when it's. Going, it moves automatically. It means you can listen them in the first time the Braille started moving automatically, I shrieked. You know, I just thought it was just quite incredible, you know, that that this was, was was happening. I just under my fingers. I wasn't doing anything. The Braille was moving and I was getting the subtitles for this piece of music that Brad was playing. It was quite, quite awesome. And, uh, I think it has a whole lot of possibilities and probably some that we haven't even thought about yet, you know? So immediately I thought of, uh, non-English films, you know, foreign language films. Yeah. Uh, Maori films here, you know, for people who where they're subtitled is, you know, so if you could set it up at the right time, it could run, uh, against, um, you know, because it's always interesting when you talk to deaf people in it, they all they all go to look at it only struck me a while after that. They all go to foreign language non-English films because the subtitles. Um, it is plain people don't, you know, because there's subtitles, you know, what's the point of listening to unless you speak the language? Well, you know, but if you could have access to those subtitles, I think musical scores potentially. So that people don't need so many pages of music, it would move along at the right time. You you'd need to see how that worked on a Braille display. You know, you need to give it a go. We don't know yet. You know how much information blind people can manage. Some of the subtitles move pretty quickly, but I kept up. That was cool. There was places where we could have added in some of the audio description and writing, so that I got a wee bit of that as well. Um, so I do think it's a work in progress. It's something that we have to play with and see how people experience it in real time, but it's potential I think is awesome.

Would you describe yourself as a proficient Braille reader poll?

Would you describe yourself as a proficient Braille reader poll?

Yes, I've been reading Braille since I was five. Um, so quite a long time ago. Okay.

Yes, I've been reading Braille since I was five. Um, so quite a long time ago. Okay.

Uh, I guess for those people who probably can't read Braille, this isn't an option. But still, for those that can't, obviously, uh, a wonderful, uh, inclusive writer to be involved.

Uh, I guess for those people who probably can't read Braille, this isn't an option. But still, for those that can't, obviously, uh, a wonderful, uh, inclusive writer to be involved.

But I might come back on this, but the opera are not looking to discontinue what we might call. It's funny to be talking about traditional audio description, given the short time it's been around, but nobody's talking about not delivering the traditional audio description. This is another option for those who want it, but Brad might want to see more in a second. But, uh, I'll say something first. Um, as usual, he's used to that. Um, so the audio description written and or recorded can be added to this. So to the system. So again, it means that any night, uh, that or afternoon actually any, any performance, um, can have audio description and the Braille subtitles. So you don't need to wait for the audio described night. It could be run. Yeah a great point. Every performance time. Brad, you might want to say something. No, I'll let you in.

But I might come back on this, but the opera are not looking to discontinue what we might call. It's funny to be talking about traditional audio description, given the short time it's been around, but nobody's talking about not delivering the traditional audio description. This is another option for those who want it, but Brad might want to see more in a second. But, uh, I'll say something first. Um, as usual, he's used to that. Um, so the audio description written and or recorded can be added to this. So to the system. So again, it means that any night, uh, that or afternoon actually any, any performance, um, can have audio description and the Braille subtitles. So you don't need to wait for the audio described night. It could be run. Yeah a great point. Every performance time. Brad, you might want to say something. No, I'll let you in.

Thanks, Paul. I am the way that that we develop the technology. Was that the idea that you could have any what we call asset, any asset on any device. So you can have recorded audio for deaf sighted people. You could have sign language video aligned with the text and the sung text. The idea is that this technology is pushing out loads of assets at once of different kinds all simultaneously. So, as Paul says, you could choose to have audio description experienced as text, or you could choose to have it experienced as audio alongside without conflicting with Braille subtitles, subtitles. So it's a really exciting, kind of multifactorial experience where you can mix and match the elements that you want to experience alongside the music. And that for us, is really goes to the heart of why we built it. We didn't want blind, low vision, deaf, um, accessibility issues to be corralled to one performance out of a long run of performances. Why can't everyone experience this every show? Well, we've shown that there's no reason why not. It's just pumped out as part of our normal surtitle technology. But we're serving all these additional bits of content at the same time. So it's a win win for us. It doesn't cost us anything more, but we get so much more richness of experience for everyone.

Thanks, Paul. I am the way that that we develop the technology. Was that the idea that you could have any what we call asset, any asset on any device. So you can have recorded audio for deaf sighted people. You could have sign language video aligned with the text and the sung text. The idea is that this technology is pushing out loads of assets at once of different kinds all simultaneously. So, as Paul says, you could choose to have audio description experienced as text, or you could choose to have it experienced as audio alongside without conflicting with Braille subtitles, subtitles. So it's a really exciting, kind of multifactorial experience where you can mix and match the elements that you want to experience alongside the music. And that for us, is really goes to the heart of why we built it. We didn't want blind, low vision, deaf, um, accessibility issues to be corralled to one performance out of a long run of performances. Why can't everyone experience this every show? Well, we've shown that there's no reason why not. It's just pumped out as part of our normal surtitle technology. But we're serving all these additional bits of content at the same time. So it's a win win for us. It doesn't cost us anything more, but we get so much more richness of experience for everyone.

And if nobody turns up, nobody gets upset. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean if no audience, I mean have no blind people turn up, you know? Yeah, nobody gets upset because it's just a standard part of what's offered.

And if nobody turns up, nobody gets upset. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean if no audience, I mean have no blind people turn up, you know? Yeah, nobody gets upset because it's just a standard part of what's offered.

A blueprint there. Have you had much interest from elsewhere? I'd obviously where contacting you from Australia, but have you had much interest from elsewhere?

A blueprint there. Have you had much interest from elsewhere? I'd obviously where contacting you from Australia, but have you had much interest from elsewhere?

It has been insane. It's gone. Gangbusters. We were very lucky to have the interview that Paul gave to the Guardian, uh, run by our fantastic NZ opera PR woman, Vanessa. She's been indefatigable in getting, uh, press attention for this. She asked. Yes.

It has been insane. It's gone. Gangbusters. We were very lucky to have the interview that Paul gave to the Guardian, uh, run by our fantastic NZ opera PR woman, Vanessa. She's been indefatigable in getting, uh, press attention for this. She asked. Yes.

I mean, we'd done a stint the.

I mean, we'd done a stint the.

Biggest, the biggest opera houses in the world have all been in touch with me. Wow. Oh, so it's fantastic. And this is, you know, this is little New Zealand doing something fantastically well for the first time, and everyone else wants a piece of it. So for for where we are and Aotearoa, it's just thrilling to be at the forefront of something that seems to have met a real moment of need and excitement.

Biggest, the biggest opera houses in the world have all been in touch with me. Wow. Oh, so it's fantastic. And this is, you know, this is little New Zealand doing something fantastically well for the first time, and everyone else wants a piece of it. So for for where we are and Aotearoa, it's just thrilling to be at the forefront of something that seems to have met a real moment of need and excitement.

And just by serendipity, the the day that the opera had its opening and the first time we had the Braille surtitles, the ICB International Council on English Braille Conference was meeting here in Auckland. And so Brad presented to that conference and it was amazing. So he set this going. We set our hit the link and set our Braille devices up. And we were reading under our fingers at moving by itself. I can a summary of what he was talking about to show everyone how it worked. So we've got some real interest from blindness organisations, uh, to the Rnib. Uh, I know certainly have been in touch. And there are others who are really, really interested, um, for, you know, for a whole host of things.

And just by serendipity, the the day that the opera had its opening and the first time we had the Braille surtitles, the ICB International Council on English Braille Conference was meeting here in Auckland. And so Brad presented to that conference and it was amazing. So he set this going. We set our hit the link and set our Braille devices up. And we were reading under our fingers at moving by itself. I can a summary of what he was talking about to show everyone how it worked. So we've got some real interest from blindness organisations, uh, to the Rnib. Uh, I know certainly have been in touch. And there are others who are really, really interested, um, for, you know, for a whole host of things.

We see massive application for all of this tech in any environment where there isn't an existing script or, say in sports scores, where, where there is text, but that's pushed live. This is what this is built for. It doesn't it's not designed to work with voice recognition or automatic transcription or anything like that. We don't think that's its unique point of interest. What we're really working with is existing text content, which up to now has been inaccessible to Braille and low vision users.

We see massive application for all of this tech in any environment where there isn't an existing script or, say in sports scores, where, where there is text, but that's pushed live. This is what this is built for. It doesn't it's not designed to work with voice recognition or automatic transcription or anything like that. We don't think that's its unique point of interest. What we're really working with is existing text content, which up to now has been inaccessible to Braille and low vision users.

What was the opera for those opera buffs that might want to know?

What was the opera for those opera buffs that might want to know?

Well, they'd have to be pretty Buffy to know this one. It's an obscure opera by Rossini called La Country. He wrote it the year before he wrote William Tell, which everyone knows the overture to. But it's a it's a kind of French farce set in the Middle Ages and involving, um, disguised nuns, three in a bed, romps, ah, you name it, it's got it going on.

Well, they'd have to be pretty Buffy to know this one. It's an obscure opera by Rossini called La Country. He wrote it the year before he wrote William Tell, which everyone knows the overture to. But it's a it's a kind of French farce set in the Middle Ages and involving, um, disguised nuns, three in a bed, romps, ah, you name it, it's got it going on.

This one wasn't set in France, so this one was set in the North shore of Auckland, wasn't it? It was.

This one wasn't set in France, so this one was set in the North shore of Auckland, wasn't it? It was.

Set in the South Island of Aotearoa in was.

Set in the South Island of Aotearoa in was.

It Southland. Well, Glenorchy sorting out.

It Southland. Well, Glenorchy sorting out.

Sounds like quite the event. Uh, Paul, just quickly because we're out of time. So you're reading it in Braille. But for example, if you're reading it, um, using uh, a device that had screen out I. Sorry. Voice output. Yep. Yeah. Having voice over as well or.

Sounds like quite the event. Uh, Paul, just quickly because we're out of time. So you're reading it in Braille. But for example, if you're reading it, um, using uh, a device that had screen out I. Sorry. Voice output. Yep. Yeah. Having voice over as well or.

Yes, you could listen to it. You could listen.

Yes, you could listen to it. You could listen.

Voiceover. Uh yep. Yeah you could. For those that don't read Braille, you could listen to it with voiceover. I think you'd have to put headphones in at the opera. You might get a telling off from other folk in the audience, but yes, you could. Yes.

Voiceover. Uh yep. Yeah you could. For those that don't read Braille, you could listen to it with voiceover. I think you'd have to put headphones in at the opera. You might get a telling off from other folk in the audience, but yes, you could. Yes.

And Brad, as you leave us, I mean, this was the first time there's going to be more times by the hour. This is just the beginning.

And Brad, as you leave us, I mean, this was the first time there's going to be more times by the hour. This is just the beginning.

Well, we're committed to it at New Zealand Opera. We're going to offer this from now on for every performance. It's we're totally committed to it. It's really now about uptake by the rest of the world. That's what we're excited about.

Well, we're committed to it at New Zealand Opera. We're going to offer this from now on for every performance. It's we're totally committed to it. It's really now about uptake by the rest of the world. That's what we're excited about.

Well, congratulations to both of you. And I said to Frances, Vanessa and Nicole, they've also been very instrumental in getting us to where we are. Absolutely. So so big. Thank you to Philip Vandepeer, one of our, uh, co-founders of this program, who also spotted the story. So it's been a real team effort. It's been a delight speaking to you both. And I've got to say, I love both your accents, but Paul. Yours.

Well, congratulations to both of you. And I said to Frances, Vanessa and Nicole, they've also been very instrumental in getting us to where we are. Absolutely. So so big. Thank you to Philip Vandepeer, one of our, uh, co-founders of this program, who also spotted the story. So it's been a real team effort. It's been a delight speaking to you both. And I've got to say, I love both your accents, but Paul. Yours.

Do I have an accent? It's so thoughtful.

Do I have an accent? It's so thoughtful.

No, you don't know.

No, you don't know.

Someone must be.

Someone must be.

What must be? My ears.

What must be? My ears.

Must be. Thanks, Peter. Great to talk to you. Oh, that was brilliant.

Must be. Thanks, Peter. Great to talk to you. Oh, that was brilliant.

That was Brad Colin, their general director for New Zealand Opera, and Paul Brown from audio described Aotearoa Truth about an opera for the first time there was presented for people blind or low vision on a refreshable braille display.

That was Brad Colin, their general director for New Zealand Opera, and Paul Brown from audio described Aotearoa Truth about an opera for the first time there was presented for people blind or low vision on a refreshable braille display.

Thank you for listening to Vision Xtra with Peter Greco. You can find this interview on the Focal Point podcast. This show was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision Australia Radio.

Thank you for listening to Vision Xtra with Peter Greco. You can find this interview on the Focal Point podcast. This show was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision Australia Radio.