Psychiatrist and activist Dr. Lise Van Susteren joins to discuss her pioneering work in understanding and managing the mental health risks associated with "climate anxiety."
Show notes from Chris:
In the beginning when I was talking about the emotional toll of climate. My gosh, this was back in two thousand and eight, and I tried to get the American Psychiatric Association to come to a meeting that I had in two thousand and nine, and they said they weren't interested. But fast forward again, and it took a while, but people now recognize Mother Nature has made the point. So what was once an abstract issue, and some people, by nature, are more inclined to focus on fear and danger than others. And now you know, we kind of went from don't want to hear about it, sounds scary, Maybe everything will work out too. In some instance's almost state of panic.
Oh we fucked.
Welcome to I'm fucking the future. Like you, I get on my phone every morning I see the headlines about the climate crisis, and I'll be the first to admit, but it's shockingly easy to feel power lives by the world around us. If we're going to unfuck this disaster, we've got to put our heads together and actually solve this mess. Because together, I truly believe we can get on the path to a better future. I'm your host, Chris Turning and this is unfucking the future.
Fucking the future.
It's not hard to notice the effects of climate change. For hundreds of millions of people. It's right on their doorstep.
Triple digit temperatures for days on in smoke from record setting wildfires, fouling the air, warming oceans.
Bleaching coral reefs.
Opinion polls find growing concern about climate change. Psychologists say that can be a positive thing, spurring people to action.
That's John Yang, a correspondence for PBS News Hour.
But for some people it becomes an overwhelming sense of despair or anxiety. Psychologists call it climate anxiety.
Last episode, we heard from a young climate activist about how the environmental crisis was affecting her and her peers, And today I want to go deeper into that discussion. Even though most people are just now catching up on the reality of how the climate is impacting our mental health, some people have been studying climate anxiety for years, like doctor Lisa Van Sustin. She's a forensic psychiatrist who's profiled foreign political leaders and presented expert testament in high level care cases, but now her work focuses on understanding how the climate is causing life altering harm to individuals. People who live for intense disasters caused by global heating are experiencing post traumatic stress, but the fear of a climate crisis is also causing people to develop what doctor Lisa van Sustn calls pre traumatic stress. This, she says, can cause other social issues ranging from drug and alcohol dependencies to civil conflict. Let's dig in. There's a couple of things you need to know about Lisa and Sustrum. First, she's not your typical psychiatrist. Sure, she went to med school and specialized in psychiatry, but as a forensic psychiatrist, she's focused on the impacts of traumatic events, and she's particularly interested in advocating for people in the court systems.
Forensic psychiatry is the interface between psychiatry and the law. So anytime something psychological has a legal component, a forensic psychiatrist would likely be sought to make sure that testimony is properly prepared or delivered and is in accordance with the law by someone who's knowledgeable about all these things. So a sexual harassment case that's going to go to court and I have to talk about all the psychological implications and undercurrents and things.
And the other thing you need to know about it. Doctor Lisa van Sustran wants to see a world where every single person is given the justice and the dignity they deserve. And she's been obvious pretty much since she was a kid.
When I was in seventh grade, I fought with the city council in my hometown of Appleton, Wisconsin about putting in curb and gutter in what amounted to a very rural, very bucolic country lane type road that my house sat on. And my grandfather was a doctor and it was also a big environmental activist. He was one of the key people involved in cleaning up the Finger Lakes. But I'm also Irish and they always say the Irish can't stop talking and protesting, So there is that. My father was involved in politics and social justice issue growing up as a becoming a psychiatrist, seeing how people suffer, you know, it's not a number for a person who hears all day long about how people are hurting, So everything becomes very real. There's a face on every issue. You'd have to be kind of frozen or at least callous, I think, not to want to help.
That experience is part of why she ran for US Senate a while back.
I ran for the US Senate in Maryland in two thousand and five two thousand and six, and as you can see, I did not become a US Senator, but I became more wedded to the issues that were of deeper and deepening concern, which included especially not just the environment writ large, but specifically climate change. And Al Gore chose me for one of his first fifty to train in Tennessee.
Yeah, the former vice president of it Stays and the person who won the popular vote for president in two thousand on a campaign addressing global heating, trained Lisa van Sustran, and a new generation of climate activists were born.
The Climate Project in two thousand and six recruited fifty people to train. And it came about because so I told this might be apocryphal, but it came about because Al was on one of the morning shows and said he was going to train people to talk about an inconvenient truth and the next thing he knew, of course, having said that he was going to have to do it. So Roy Neil, his chief of staff then at the time, and his wife in particular Jenny Kladd took over the charge to find fifty people, and I was one of those fifty, and we were out in Carthage, Tennessee, at his barn, and he taught us all about climate change and then encouraged each of us to run with it with our own voices. And in the aftermath it was like running downhill.
Doctor van Susteren noticed that very few people were talking about the mental health toll, but the environment was having on young people. She found that disturbing. How could they not be talking about this.
The only thing is that I thought that we would be seeing these changes. We look at the numbers, make the changes right away, and then everybody would be happy and everything would be correct. But increasingly I saw it wasn't just the health issues, but specifically mental health toll, and especially on kids.
She observed a post traumatic stress that an increasing number of people are living through.
On one side is what people are currently experiencing in terms of often aver an extreme weather event, the anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, major depressions or just depression. We find post traumatic stress disorder. Of course, we find that people try to numb themselves with alcohol ors and then we often see domestic violence and it's not really surprising because think about it. Imagine if your house is burned down, lone away, flooded, or otherwise swept off the face of the earth, and you've lost your possessions, maybe your pets, family members, your everyday life has been disrupted, you've lost your job, you can't go to school. Do you think you'd be a little upset. So it's easy once you drill down anything you know that's right.
But there's also a pre traumatic stress.
The emotional toll is derived from the realization that the science is telling us that we're going to bust through various irreversible tipping points, that we're getting close to one point five degrees which a centigrade, which unleashes those climate tipping points, and so the anticipation is that things are going to get worse before they ever get better. Well, I don't like to say that, but that's what's being said. And newsflash, people don't like to think that things are going to get worse. So it's what I've dubbed pre traumatic stress. So the people who are thinking about the future, and this is particularly true of young people because they're going to be suffering the cumulative toll. It's the anticipation of future damage and the recognition that now is the time to be taking action and there's a robottleneck and they know it.
Yeah, and this is what you're saying, this pre traumatic stress, but also the frustration. I hear you saying about, well, why aren't we doing something about base?
A lot is being done. There are plenty of people are busting there, you know what, to do everything they can. The issue is are we doing enough in time?
Yes, I think, I say readly impoint stress. A lot is happening. A lot is happening. It's just it is it going up a speeding the scale that we need. And that's the urgency. And I think that's a sense of maybe where the frustration is coming in as well.
And here's the biggest problem, Chris. It's one thing if you could always say to yourself, well, you know, this was fate nature whilst it takes its toll, et cetera. But what's happening now is that people know that the intensity and the frequency of these extreme weather events have the handprints of humans all over. So the issue now is this is willful neglect. This is the difference between involuntary manslaughter, so to speak, and voluntary manslaughter where you know full well that you are endangering others but you're doing it anyway. It's much harder to get over harm that we believe is not an accident but was intentionally or partly intentionally by negligence inflicted. This is really unnerving because that kind of cynicism, it's different from normalizing. This is cynicism that government doesn't work for you, entergyroads, our trust in our institutions as being able to keep us safe, and the consequences of that. For somebody who studies this is that when people don't believe in their government, they're not going to get out there and vote. They are accepting cynically that this is the way things are, and that's when you see the erosion of democracy.
Do you see certain populations being more prone to its mindset? You know, Is it's something that makes someone more vulnerable to that.
Yes, of course kids are likely to be I think more inclined to show some of their anger, and they also sometimes feel or more vulnerable. Older people tend to sweep it under the rug. They're not in their idealistic phase. They aren't going to change the world. They aren't destined to see the or to experience the consequences of their bad decisions. We're on a kind of a trajectory that we're not going to change now. Woods have that whole world and falling in front of them. They've got to make these course changes.
It's easy to see how young people would be more vulnerable to mental health issues related to the environment, and the numbers on this are staggering. In a global survey of ten thousand gen zas, almost sixty percent said that they felt very or extremely worried about the climate, and perhaps to doctor Van Susteren's point here, more than fifty percent reported feeling sad, anxious, angry, and powerless. For a lot of people, that panic can cause pre traumatic stress and anxiety, and those feelings can cause emotional paralysis. I think we can all understand this feeling like no matter what we do, we're doomed. But that's a totally unhelpful perspective. We've got to lean on the people around us who meet the climate crisis with a sense of agency. But people who say we can fix this.
And there are other people who by nature have a feeling of agency, So even if they aren't you the center of this, or mister or miss important that they have the sense that they are agents of change and that they must pick up the standard and bring others to bring up pick up the standard with them. These are the people that are kind of natural organizers, collaborators, motivators, et cetera.
There's so many people in the world who, in the face of adversity, find innovative solutions for the future.
We're on fucking the future. We're on fucking the future.
I know from personal experience that my turning point was when I did psychological profiles in the first case that I was involved with, which is the Juliana case against the federal government. Juliana is a case of twenty one youth plaintiffs and Jim Hansen who have sued the federal government for insufficient action essentially on climate and I spent several months one summer writing those psychological profiles. I had worked previously for the executive branch of the government writing profiles, so it's a familiar territory to me. But I got to say, I will never be able to forget what it was like listening to them and experiencing what they're going through as they contemplate a future that feels dark, and so once you hear those stories from a person directly, you can't forget them.
And as doctor Van Sustrm prepared to expert witness testimony for Juliana versus United States, she was also working in the background on another landmark case held versus Montana. But what we talked about in the last episode.
The state of Montana had passed a law that prevented forbid lawmakers from referring or considering climate change in any of the permits that they would issue or other related activities to fossil fuel companies and their impact on the environment.
Last summer, doctor Van Sustrom joined the team of experts who testified on behalf of the youth plaintiffs in a small courtroom in Helena, Montana.
It's a wooden paneled room. It's kind of small, a very intimate wooden benches and stuff. So it has this country style feeling, and so it's always the feeling of irony that it goes out over very high tech services, but it's just this little group of people that are fighting for what they believe in. And so we had a judge that was an old Montana girl. I say girl because she was in her I think probably in her early sixties, but you know, a real a Montana stock. And so it was kind of like central casting for the characters that were there. They were all Montanas. And so the feeling of authenticity and the feeling that we were doing something fundamental and that it was that it was right, and it was straightforward and it was fair was a part of the sizzle of excitement that we felt. So for me, the job was essentially to find out what the playbook of the lawyers defending the state was going to be and to counter that. And also I brought up that my code of ethics says that part of being a good doctor requires that I take public health seriously. So I am, in a sense called charged with that responsibility. And then all I had to do was show what the State of Montana was doing to these kids, specifically using their testimony in the courtroom. And then of course the expert tease that I have that says, yes, that would cause a person losing your house to fire, not being able to go out because there's smoke, not being able to engage in previously enjoyed activities. That's going to stress a kit out.
It's an incredible story, but perhaps most importantly, this case can teach us a lot about why we have to combat climate anxiety through action. See the foundation for this case was set a long time ago, but activists who were fed up with a current status quo.
It was nineteen seventy two that a group of enterprising people said, Hey, we love our state of Montana. We want to put in the state of Montana constitution that Montana residents have. All right, and this is the constitution to a safe and healthful environment.
Okay, let's pause here, what the fuck are you talking about? Like doctor Van Sustin mentioned, the amendment in Montana that allowed for this case to go to trial says for the state must provide a safe and healthful environment. Back in the seventies, activists saw the environmental degradation happening across their beloved state.
We were from Missoula, where on any given day you couldn't even see the mountains because of what was coming out of corner Waldorf.
That's Mae Non Ellingson, who is the youngest member of the committee that decided on the wording of the Clean and Healthful Amendment. This clip is from an interview she did with Montana Technological University.
It was the beginning of strip mining and eastern Montana and then we had clear cutting. So for a great number of us, it's like we didn't want that exact environment that we had in Montana. We didn't want the status quo.
And those words clean and healthful were critical, not just because they'd be used in the Hell v. Montana lawsuit fifty years later, but because they meant something to Maine Non and other activists. They all loved Montana and preserving a beauty of estate was so important to them they had to find a way to protect it.
They were saying, how can we add these words. We don't know what they mean. We're going to have all kinds of lawsuits trying to establish what they mean. But those were words that were actually in federal legislation. They were in some of the environmental protection legislation.
It's people like may Non who over fifty years ago laid the groundwork for young activists to advocate for a healthy environment in Montana. What the fuck are you're talking about?
Because of that, that law, we could show in a million different ways did not render the residents of Montana's safe and certainly not helpful when it's in the constitution. Jeez, there it is an ink. It's really hard to get it off the parchment. So this is what gives people that sense we can do this, and this is the first constitutional court case and it is going to embolden others. So if you've got to be first, be first. If you've got to be a follower, be a follower. But get your friends and everybody else to take action, do what's right now.
When we're discussing the climate crisis, it's so important that we also talk about when things went right because talking about success and the positive effects of activism can give people a sense of hope, and that hope can help combat some of a pre traumatic stress that doctor an Sustrin has been warning us about.
So here's what's important to say. But we will find ourselves sometimes lamenting not enough people are taking action. That's really not a helpful statement. But what is helpful is if we have a real knowledgeable sense about how we need to work together, then we need to say more and more people. And again this is true every day. Our taking this seriously. So that's what's the empowering message that gives people the wish to desire, an impulse to take action and be agents of change.
Which is all to say, talk about how you feel with other people, get activated. It will make you feel a little better. I know. There is a ton of great work happening right now.
We are now providing information to states, to local government, whether it's the city council or whether it's the Committee on Education, and especially state legislatures, asking for meetings, talking to them about the emotional toll on kids and using words language that is important to them because when you look at what happens in an emotional toll from anything is you have increased violence. And legislators, people elected to office a sense to an uptick in criminal activity, behavior, violence, et cetera. Higher temperatures lead to violence. Certainly a public health message is important, and we are going to state legislators, elected officials and saying here's why you need to care. And what I'm also bringing up is I'm bringing kids in that have been involved in climate issues before, so that I'm not bringing them in just for us, but they've been involved so they can tell what it's like first person, not me a professional, but first person, and that's a way to get people to feel the story. Storytelling is so powerful when you want to get people to listen.
And if you feel like you're experiencing mental health issues from a climate crisis, doctor Van Sustrn has a few actionable tips for you. First, recognize your feelings. Most reactions to the climate crisis are totally normal. Worrying about the climate isn't a mental health illness. It's just a sign you're absolutely human.
It is a response to a very serious threat. It may rise to the level that it makes you ill, but it's not an illness in and of itself. If you need professional help, it's because you're really beginning to shut down. And I've had relatives and boyfriends and girlfriends of individuals who've said, you know, my family member or friend won't leave the house. She's panicked. What can we do? So And if you're really struggling, look for a climate to wear a therapist directory. You may be able to find somebody, or I presume you will be able to find somebody either nearby or else, somebody that sounds like it would be a good fit, because you know, maybe you knew you to just talk to somebody who encourages like a good coach, So therapists can be like good coaches. It's a person simply who recognizes that climate is a threat and that it's not surprising that it causes deep anxiety.
So take a look at a Climate to Wear therapist directory and know that you can always reach out to a doctor for help. And there are other ways to get support too.
Type in climate cafes and you can find places where you can join online others who are talking about their feelings and there is no judgment of what you're saying. They're not looking for you to provide remedies. You're there to listen and to experience what other people are experiencing, and it's just a very supportive environment. Then there is also a step a little bit more activist is Citizens Climate Lobby Joan's Citizens Climate Lobby. There you will find a like minded individuals who really want to wade into the political sphere and take action. They write op eds, they share information, lots of good stuff, So Citizens Climate Lobby.
And finally remember, but what you feel and do matters. Each of us hold a great deal of power, and we have to remember that I read not.
Long ago and this was a good thing for me to remember is when you feel powerless about something, try to think of what power you're giving up?
Hm, Yes, are you really going to give that up? Yeah, you're really going.
To give out a good way to confront yourself about what you might be leaving on the table that you ought not to.
Lisa, I really like that. I really I've not heard that at all. Actually that's about Wow. That's really powerful. Actually, that's really powerful. Yeah, what power you giving up? Gosh, Lisa. Honestly, thank you so much of your time. It's been absolutely brilliant talking to you and completely inspired.
Now.
Honestly, it's genuinely, it really is. It's just been a very wide ranging discussion, but we've just covered so many important issues. Absolutely, thank you, Thank you. You've been absolutely wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. Honestly, it really has been brilliant.
Weird fucking the future. We're a fucking the future.
It wouldn't be an episode of I'm Fucking the Future if I didn't bring in the brilliant Maggie Bed for some good advice too. What fuck can I do? Every episode we highlight one action you can take to get involved, and as always we're talking to our friend Maggie bed for help. Thanks for coming back on the show, Maggie.
Oh, thanks for having me.
So. Lisa had a lot to say about the negative impact of climate crisis is having on our mental health. What's something our listeners can do to protect their mental health and the health of the people they care about.
The first thing I want to recommend is a book. It's a book called It's Not Just You by Tory Sue. She's an amazing activist and this book will help you feel that you're not alone. And then the second thing you can do is find a support group, and for that I want to recommend A great website was put together by the rapper Megan the Stallion and it is called bad Bitches Have Bad Days Too dot com.
Oh yes, I presume that's a reference to a song anxiety, So it's probably my favorite maketrack off to Beautiful Mistakes.
Wow, Chris, you really know the Megan thee Stallion Cadillac. I am very impressed. Yes, anxiety is about mental health and Megan and her team have put together this amazing companion website that is full of incredible resources to help you find support for what you're going through, whomever and wherever you are. For example, the site has links to therapy platforms like the Center for Interactive Mental Health Solutions and the directory of resources specifically tailored to at risk and historically marginalized communities. So whoever you are, you'll be able to find useful mental health support at Bad Bitches Have Bad Days too dot com.
And of course, as always.
You can talk to your doctor, your guidance counselor faith leader or whoever your trusted figure is about what you're feeling. The first step to managing these feelings is understanding that you're not alone.
Oh thanks, Maggie, And that's what the fuck you can do this week? What fuck can I do?
Oh?
Fucked?
That's it for now. Next time, on the fucking the Future, we're talking to one of the greats, an absolute giant in the fight against climate change, Bill mckibbon.
You know there's some people who can't reach there, just spend too much time listening to you know, Donald Trump or Rush Limbaugh or something. With older people, there's definitely the idea that, and it turns out to be correct, that your grand grandkids will h will think you're cool, get the rested, fucking share whoever, whatever you're doing. But I think it's just a sense of responsibility. I mean, look, climate change is basically at test at this point of whether the Big Brain was a good adaptation or not.
Thanks for joining me and I'm Fucking the Future. See you next time.
We're Fucking the Future.
I'm Fucking the Future is produced by Imagine Audio and Awfully Nice for iHeart Podcasts and hosted by me Chris Turney. The show is written by Meredith Bryan. I'm Fucking the Future is produced by Amber von Schassen and Rene Colvert. Ron Howard, Brian Grazer, Carl Welker and Nathan Chloke are the executive producers from Imagine Audio. Jesse Burton and Katie Hodges are the executive producers from Awfully Nice. Sound design and mixing by Evan Arnette, original music by Lillly Hayden and producing services by Peter mcgriggan. Sam Swinnerton wrote our theme and all those fun jingles. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review Unfucking the Future on Apple Podcasts or whether you get your podcasts