Catherine Oxenberg joins Teddi and guest co-host Sam Rubin. She explains her daughter's role in NXIVM and how she was instrumental in getting her out and holding the guilty responsible. She fought to save her child.
Sam & Teddi then discuss Terrance Howard's "interesting" red carpet interview.
And the age old debate of how to discipline your child.
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This is Teddy. Hey guys, it's Teddy mellon camp here and I have Sam Rubin joining me today for the second jam packed episode of Teddy Podcast. It's genuinely jam packed crazy, I mean jam packed. I mean we had we had some learning curves of our our original font on the podcast. Everybody thought it was Teddy peepoo instead of Teddy pepod. So what they because we're spilling the tea and everyone thought it was Teddy tepoo because of the because apparently p o d all in caps looks like Pooh. But we learned that the hard way. But you know, we learned from our mistakes over here. Tepoo is not a terrible name. You know what. I've spent considerall time now in the studio with with Teddy, and I can reveal that she has not evacuate fashion. I'm going to try to keep that as a joke. Okay, perfect. Today we're going to dig into a lot of things that you want to know. I mean, I have become obsessed with learning about Katherine Oxenburg and the Nexium sex cult, and she's going to be joining us today along with a lot of other things. I watched last night's keeping up with Kardashians, and I'm with Scott here. He was pissed about the spanking comment that Corey made. We got to dig into that. Wow. So in lighter news, I mean, I need to have some red Carpet questions for you. I did this Terrence Howard interview on the Emmy Red Carpet. I mean, I need so much information on this because I mean I googled some things like, you know, the Flower of Life, and Imma just came up that he wasn't talking about. Well, you know, it was It was funny because we actually had this perfectly lucid cut. We do this red carpet show can letely live, which is exactly how I prefer, and I like the idea that you never know what's gonna come up. But we were in a commercial break and he came up and we had this, just as you and I are talking right now, this very lucid conversation as parents do about health insurance and the SAG after the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television Radio Artist health insurance. And you know one I have four kids is you know you can go to rehab a thousand times, but you can't get braces for your kids. So like it's like I trade the rehab thing and um. And he was saying and this was so interesting and maybe you should have been a clue. He was talking about everything his character had been through. Lucius had been through an empire, almost as if he goes, was he in character at the moment? I don't know, but he was like, well, you know, as you know, I've lost a son, I've you know, had another jump off a bridge, I had a baby with a baby mama. And I mean maybe that could be real life too, and I need counseling, I need somebody on the set. And I'm like, oh, we we won't. Can't you know, can't you get that? He goes, you know, they don't cover that? And then I said, she just a networks fox at the production company. Imagine do they cover it? And he's like, no, they don't. He was kind of mad about that. And then you know that typical in your ear three to one, Oh we're back. Oh so he's already apped up. He was a little REVVD up, and so the questions surrounding him had been and you know, he's a very fine actor. You might remember hustle and flowing a couple of things. The questions surrounding him was he had announced that after he finishes these fifteen episodes of Empire, he's done that he's not gonna act anymore. And so I was like, Hey, we're back in blah blah blah. You know, Terrence Howard is here. Hey, Terence, when you made reference to that, are you not coming back for a while or forever? Which I thought was a legit thing to say, And then he sort of well, and then just goes well. Then he goes into like all of this math and algebra, and and I'm like, listen, it's too early for this right now. As I that's why I see everybody's outfits. Maybe a couple of snarky comments, but this is a lot for me. And then what was the thing about gravity and what was it gonna YouTube? Well, he was he was talking about all and then I I'll polish my own halo. So he's just going off and in lieu of saying, you know, you're insane, what are you talking about? I said, which I thought was the right thing to say. I said, gee, that's a big remark. I heard that, which I love, and then he was like he that like almost fueled his ego. Like he was like, oh, yeah it is. You want to hear what else I gotta say? I mean, I've got I've got YouTube things like I you know, I want to prove gravity isn't a force. I'm like, I tell my pregnant belly that because you know what it feels like, whine. So anyway, he kind of went on, and then you know, he was getting a star which has since taking place on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and he said on Tuesday, when he gets that star, he was gonna somehow eliminate all gravity from Saturn or proved that sad and didn't require gravity or something, and he was going to release a big tape on YouTube and all of that, of course turned out not to be happening. Not happening. And then I'm not familiar with You'll know the word I'm about to say, but I'm not familiar with the everything surrounding it. You you might be a lot of people are texted and tweeted in Oh it's ayahuasca talking. Oh he's doing okay, So I have heard of this. I I it's something where you take a drug and it's supposed to rid you of all of these negative energies, but you can also kind of like trip out on it. Right, That's what I understand, which like, for me, if that's even like a percent chance is going to happen, it's gonna rid me of anything. But there's also the tripping out factor. I'm I'm good, I'll keep my negative energy or my issues. You trip out, hallucinate and no, no, I understand by the way, the beautiful, the beautiful Amy sugarman um chiming in. Have you tried I've never even had some avolcohol, but I do think I like the polite phrase it caused us you to fully evacuate, you know what. I don't know that I need to fully evacuate. I feel like I'm fine with where I am. Some issues, you know, sometimes it comes out and anger to happiness whatever. But okay, do you think he may be tried this right before the Red Carpet what. I don't think he did that, But I think people were saying that the language is such that you know, Jesus when you when you're doing that, this is what happened. This is the way they talk. So I don't know. I mean, that's intense. And then when he walked away from you, were you trying to like eavesdrop on his conversation with everybody else? You know what? Funnily enough, fashion wise, he looked fantastic. He had a great vest and the vest tied in the back like he was a pirate or something. It was a really good outfit. Do we think that anybody like message him like, Hey, I'm waiting for the info Tuesday, like where is that? Like I still want to know where. I was like gonna, I was gonna watch it, but it wasn't there. It wasn't there. No, And I thought, you know, when you get these stars of the Walk of Fame and there's kind of a formal ceremony, I thought surely somebody would kind of shout out, maybe like Saturday at exactly. So, Yeah, well that was one of those things where I was like, you handled it like a champ. I probably would have just sat there with like a dead pan expression and just my mouth agape. But yeah, pretty crazy. Um do we Is there any other little tidbits we really need to know about that? About what like what your thoughts on it? Are we just going with? I mean, I I feel that that's one of those rare instances where the tape is sort of self explanatory if you you know, you you just see it. But but what was interesting to me is frankly more than any of the Emmy winners, more than anything else, that seemed to generate more headlines than anything because I because I think that people people love crazy. Well, I was gonna say people love crazy or people love what they perceived as real. So that was a real obviously an unscripted moment. You couldn't write that stuff, You couldn't plan that, you couldn't remember it. I'm trying to read it and I can't. So I think people kind of appreciated it. But it really traveled, I mean just everywhere. Okay, um, so let's take a little break now before we bring on Katherine Oxenberg, which is going to be so good. Sam, have you noticed anything about my skin? Okay, here's the thing about you. You're really good looking, beautiful hair, a lovely smile, but you really do have beautiful skin. 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Very delicious especially, I mean it tastes like fruit punch and it only has one gram of sugar. I'm deeply into Hawaiian punch. Well, then you're gonna love these. And they're available on Amazon or through their website. And get ten dollars off your first one month supply of Beauty Choose. Go to your beauty Choose dot com and enter Teddy at checkout. That's your beauty Choose dot com and enter t E D d I at checkout. Okay, so now we're here with Katherine Oxenberg, who has been speaking out about her daughter's slaver role and Nexium and its secret society. I mean, I have been blown away about all this for for years, but more importantly, like now, digging into your story, your daughter's story. They each Hollywood Story airs on Sunday, October six at ten PM, and I mean my heart was just breaking reading the story, watching the Lifetime movie like everything I have been. I mean, I have so many questions, but I was wondering if you could give a little background just for our listeners and then we'll kind of dive into the questions. So in two thousand and eleven, I was introduced to what I was told was a leadership program, personal development, personal development, business kind of training. My daughter, my eldest daughter, India at that point was ninety twenty, and I went to an introduction. It was hosted by a gentleman called Mark Vicenti. Actually Sarah Edmondson was there as well, who's an actress, but he I knew because he had made a movie called What the Bleep? So he had And this is how these groups, these that I call cults operate. They very often have legitimate consumer facing companies. It doesn't look like a cult. Nobody joins that. Nobody signs up to join a cult. You think it's a legitimate program. And they're very often offering legitimate tools and valuable resources, or else they would never be able to recruit people. So we signed up. She India loved the intro. She asked me to do it with her, so we signed up. We did this five day class. I was really not very impressed. This is in Los Angeles. This was in l A and kind of a pop up home and they had about I don't know thirty coaches, all wearing different colored sashes and they're about twenty two students and amongst the students were a couple of celebrities and my telling affair, God do I well, I mean that we kind of go deep here? Is that so deep? Okay? Rosario somebody or other? Um and then Callum Blue, who actually is he appears in this piece, who was one of my dearest oldest friends and I didn't know that he had been signed up by an actress in Vancouver, and I think that's they It was act a lot of people in the entertainment business referring recommending, hence Alison mac who was in Vancouver, Um Callum was on Smallville, so it was sort of Kristin Kruk. It was all these people that were signing each other up. Um. I started to see in those first five days weird things. But I've done a lot of weird stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean this is dangerous, and so you know, you suspend and some of the weird stuff. Okay, the sashes are weird because it's not a dojo. Taking your shoes off, Okay, I asked people sometimes to take their shoes off. I'm gonna wait signing an NDA because they're saying this material is proprietary. Okay, that's weird. And I had a problem with that because I'm like, I can't talk to my husband who is not in the room about things that i'm learning. That that's bizarre. And then this mission statement that you're supposed to read out loud, and then the bowing and the thanking vanguard. Who is Keith Rnieri. They have a title for him and then Nancy Salzman prefect, who's his number two. They have titles for people, and there's this kind of like hierarchy. There's a hierarchy. So these things that seemed like a little I refused to say, you know, to say the mission statement every day where you pledge to recruit people, I'm like, I paid a lot of money for this class. I'm under no obligation to recruit. Every time I verbalized that I had an issue, they would say, well, you have you a defiance issue and they would throw it back. And that is the beginning of how they start to make people suggestible and submissible, is that if you have an issue, it's your problem. It's never there's um. Now I went on and this is where I got hooked. They do too kind of different um things for lack of a better world. They do these modules, which are classes, which are sort of these philosophical questions that they put to you. And for the most part, I would fall asleep during these exchanges. And then they do these what are called e m s or explorations of meanings. Are you're supposed to fall asleep? No? And they called me disintegrated because I would fall asleep um. And then you do these more experiential kind of psycho psycho process yeah, whatever that are the set question sets to um, let go of limitations, phobias, whatever, and you and the way they pose the questions. You have these deep emotional cathosses. Now a lot of these large group awareness training to do this, be at Landmark, be it whatever. This is a spposed to be an executive success problem exactly, thank you. It was not called nix UM at that point. It was called Executive Success program. We talked very little about business. But let me tell you what is so key. You're having a deep emotional experience. You automatically link these rather banal philosophical concepts and you give them greater meaning. And that is the beginning the first steps of indoctrination, because what they're doing is they're building a philosophy that is supposed to be the philosophy of Keith Rainieri, that they build into a doctrine that is supposed to be better than anything else. And with emotional linkage, you're engaging parts of the brain that actually make you believe that these are fundamentally more substantive beliefs. You never know that and they're essentially telling you to always ignore your gut feeling correct. Yes, So part of the exploration of meaning is you have an issue as something and you want to remove your reactivity because you think that's a limitation, and what it is is your unhooking your gut. It's the beginning of them dismantling your personality. You can really so, you think. So once they've dismantled it, you don't want to leave. Well, worse than that is, first they build you up, and then they start to tell you all the problems that you have and only they can fix you. So then you're you, and you're you're very lucid about all of this now as you were initially and your daughter going through this, it doesn't seem to me that you were able to see clearly as you're able to see now. Okay, I was incredibly naive about cults. I had done a lot of self help. A lot of this reminded me of other self help programs that I've done. Um, I'd cried on a lot of shoulders, doing various you know, processes. It wasn't that outlandish. May I ask something that chain of personal Was there something that happened that you and your daughter's life that you guys were really searching for inside of this or was it really business like wanted your businesses to grow, or do you think there was something you guys were looking for? I would have I considered myself a seeker always okay, um, but I had reached a place where I was a little bit cynical about self help, feeling like that I'd probably you know, there was no stone unturned. My daughter, on the other hand, was about to launch the business, and so really for her, I thought it was an opportunity for her to What they said is that it was going to help your critical thinking, your leadership skills, and I thought it would help her as she forged her way into the business world. So it really was as simple as that. And we learned very little about legitimate business. We learned a lot about how to detect con artists, which I find very ironically considering the whole thing was a yeah. And how quickly into this do you think that you guys figured out you're no longer in like a Tony Robe Robbins as motivational retreat and you're actually going to be in like a sex call branding women and having women's masters, Like how okay, what's the time or what's the actual turnaround here? Yes, this is this is the grooming process of a predatory group or a sexual predator. So we started taking classes in two thousand and eleven. By two thousand and thirteen, I was done. Oh but you were there for two years but taking classes sporadically, And there's two different ways you could be a dilettante student, which I was and was frowned upon, And people like Sarah tried to recruit me relentlessly to become a coach, and they succeeded with India who became a coach. The minute you sign up to become a coach, you're giving them permission to give you feedback, and feedback is constant criticism and that's where they begin to break you down brutally. And also I read something that like thousands and thousands of dollars are given to this organization. Where is the money going to? Because sometimes other cults or other religions or whatever you want to say that they are it's going back to give back to people or blah blah blah, But what is where are they claiming this money as going and didn't your daughter end up having to go through tons and tons of tons of money? They say, that's the whole point is to recruit people and then to really suck them dry financially. Where the money goes nobody knows because they consider themselves a humanitarian and you know enterprise, and then you have the Bronfman's Sarah and Claire Brontman, who have been members since two thousand and three on the executive boards, basically giving them access to hundreds of millions of dollars. And so this is just their way of being almost like this is like a god complex. Well it's Keith God complex for sure. And then they worship him. They worship him and that's all embedded in the curriculum. So nobody meets him before you've done the foot level one, which is fifteen days. And how do you think that your daughter got sucked in further and you were able to escape? Like how did that happen? And then I have to ask as a mom, like how didn't you rip her out right away? Like what what ends up happening? Okay, so that there's a I could actually spend an hour with you just breaking down those questions. But to simplify. I didn't see anything harmful happening in the beginning, even though when she said, Mom, I'm signing up to be a coach, I was like, my heart sank. Then it steps by steps. I didn't you know as a I have five kids. I mean, I've helped mother five kids. It's not until you really have to let them make mistakes. You can't step in and stop them from learning their lessons. You have to give them the dignity of their own process. But what happened when I was told that she was in danger, which was in April of two thousand and seventeen, and I was told about DOSS, which was the slave Master group, And I was told about the severe diet restriction, and I had seen symptoms, but I had couldn't put If you don't know what to look for, it's like if your kid is an addict. You don't know. However, that were seeing not often because they wouldn't let her leave unbeknownst to me, So she had gone to another stage. She had moved to Albany and around I'm trying to remember it was two thousand and sixteen, but she was gone, so I barely saw her it's fascinating to hear you guys talk because I did a ton of research about this and listen to this podcast called Escaping Nexium. What's difficult about talking to Catherine is there is so much information and so much story to tell that you get you're getting little pieces like doss And one thing I want to tell you guys quickly, since you're touching on the money, is the criminal charges that have been placed are on the racketeering charges, which basically means this is all a racket, it's just bs illegal on how much money did they, like, how much money was seized? Do we know that? Well? I know how much was sees from Nancy Salzman who was pre number two prefects around half a million dollars. But we're talking about this is a criminal enterprise. And ironically I was the first person to kind of with a team of lawyers figure out that there was racketeering going on, that there was sex trafficking. So those original charges that I wrote to the government are the ones they ended up being charged for. Well, you you bring up the notion of sex trafficking. I think a lot of people in terms of experience this through the headlines. I thought it was a sex cult. Well, I mean you would you could call it a sex cult, right, I mean if you hear about that women are recruiting other women to have sex with the leader? What I mean? And right? Legitimate? How long after your daughter was like? What was the time frame before she was branded and into doth? Okay? So all of this I had to find out sort of piecemeal. She's never telling you anything, you know, she's telling now she's Oh, she was probably branded in January of two thousand and seventeen, and I wasn't told about her involvement until April of two thousand and seventeen. And then once I was told what was going on, a primal maternal instinct kicked in that I didn't know I had. That wouldn't stop I mean, I wouldn't stop telling. And so is that initial inclination to call the police, to go there with a gun and get her out, or to do what? Okay? So first I read everything I could about cults literally in twenty four hours. I want to see a cult specialist, and I I structured an intervention I got I planned to get this was in May, I guess planned to bring India home for her birthday, which was at the end of May. Had it all planned out? That failed? Then I went to the police. I hit it failed because she didn't come home, or she came home, but she didn't want. I blew the intervention completely. And I've been warned by the expert um Rachel Bernstein. She said, don't be disappointed if she gets back on the plane and goes back. Don't consider it a failure. You may have planted the seeds, but she may need to figure it out for herself. But I was like, oh, yes, of course, for those listening, why do you think you blew it? Like, what is it that you think you said or did that would have changed the outcome? I said, keywords that have been implanted in her to put put put up defenses. I said, your brainwash and you're in a cult, and you don't say that. That's really good, really good to know you don't say that. But she wasn't, She wasn't ready. And this is the irony. Had she seen the light in that moment and she and I had walked away into the sunset and left it all behind Keith row Near, he would still be operating, He would still be branding women and he would still be recruiting them for sex, and this organization would be untouched. And so the irony is the deeper she dug her heels in, the more people I had to help, the deeper I had to research, and the more crimes I am colored. Do we have any idea how many women were branded and part of the sex well, according to Keith Lawyers, around a hundred and fifty. And the range is it all across the board, all across the I mean, his preference is the younger, the better, and they were strict calories to about five hundred, and they he wants women thin and because that would hurt him. If they're bigger, it's disgusting. So we're pulsive. And then after you finally fought to have your daughter out, how do you even how does she even move on from this? How did you like? What are what are those steps like? And as a mother, what are the things that you can even say? Now? Well, I'll let me backtrack a little bit, because there was a public kind of explosion. I was out there basically outing my daughter as the as the last resort because I couldn't get her out and she hated me, and I how did they ever threaten you, Yes, they did so I received threats of look, but this is what they do, vexatious litigation from Mexico, um lawsuits threatening me of fraud, extortion. So this was whistleblower intimidation. And also I was told if I went to Mexico, I'd get killed because the leader of the cult in Mexico is the son of the ex president. So these are very dangerous people. Think that's something too. And as we speak right now, I know that Alison Mack was sentenced. Um this other gentleman, where is he okay? So actually they're all they're all convicted guilty, awaiting sentencing, and we just found out that Claire Bronpman sentencing is January eight, and one of the other ladies who was one of the accountants, I think the end of January. So we're waiting for the rest of them to be sentenced. But everyone was blood guilty. So now this does not exist at all any longer. Well, this is what we don't know, That's what I was thinking. I feel like there's probably some people there that are still his you know, die hard. In my opinion, Claire Bronpman is still bankrolling next to him. And I mean one of one of the things that I wanted I did want to mention my book because when you talk about what can parents do? I wrote the book to expose that this this organization in the advent, that the government did nothing because they dropped the ball so many times in the past because they were scared of like the amount of money that was backing this group. And so the book is a really good kind of roadmap for people who are going through this, who want to know how what to avoid, what what the warning signs are. And actually when India read it, it helped her wake up. She was like, if I had had all this information, I never would have fallen pray. Did she need to go into any kind of treatment? Like what how do you recover? Okay? So it's very different than an ad an addiction recovery. Um, it's more understanding. It's an education about how this could have happened to you, Understanding the grooming process, understanding indoctrination or if you want to call it, brainwashing. And I think that I'm not gonna talk about her specifically because I don't want to trust boss On, but what I recommend to people who are coming out of occult is that they go through a therapeutic process to unpack what was done to them and how, because if you don't, you are vulnerable to stepping into another situation that is abusive and you almost miss what you've left. Right, Well, you're even though you may have left physically, you're still mentally hijacked because you're still under the influence of a doctrine and the way you're thinking has been changed drastically to the point that you can't think critically. You've become completely dependent on an outside source. That's very frightening. There are probably some people and this will sound harsh and I that's not my intention, will be like, well, it's just the show bus, these Hollywood types, you know, you know, my my family here in Des Moines would never fall prey to this. What would you say to that, Well, first of all, we have to be very careful not to victim shame, and I think culturally we do that because we don't want to feel that we could be vulnerable to being conned. Um, luck of the draw that I wasn't, and my poor daughter was, and maybe her vulnerability was she was in transition. Transition in a relationship in a in a business. But the truth is a lot of the people who are recruited into this group were highly educated. They had Ivy League PhD s. These were not dummies. And and very often culls go off to very productive intelligence people because they want those people working on their behalf and they want good recruiters. So the thing to note is that everyone can be vulnerable. Anyone can be susceptible at some period in their lives, and it's better to be forearmed then, you know. And what is the expression forearmed and fore woarned? Like if you know, if you understand how these groups operate, it's very similar to a sexual predator or an abusive controlling relationship. It's the exact same playbook. So whether it's so, I wouldn't say that it's just Hollywood types or you know, willing to try weird kinky. And when you hear what it is, anyone would have been sucked into it. Anyone that's ever gone to here, Tony Robbins or Oprah for that matter, could have been sucked into this. Because when you first hear about it, you're like, well, they really like sell it to you, like, oh, this will change my life or this will help my career. I also think it's important that because of your notoriety, you brought them down, because this wasn't getting into People magazine without you having, you know, the celebrity that you had. That was how I learned about it. And then I dug deeper because I'm like, what what is this? Stand your fight and your grit and you know, knowing that it needed to stop. Yeah, I knew it was a really dangerous situation. And in fact, the first oh, this relates back to what you my question you asked me when I originally went to the police in the FBI. One of the other members of one of the defectives went to somebody in the local Albany area who is part of the FBI, and he said, you know, you should be very careful who you're even telling law enforcement about the situation, because these are very dangerous people. And I'm thinking, why are you not doing anything? Law enforcement did nothing for twenty years and people were bringing them evidence. When you're in dacor you're going through any of this, do you think you you know in the back of your mind that this is wrong, or do you think you are so brainwashed to this point that you can't imagine living without it, Like what what do you think that is like? And it doesn't have to be your daughter directly, but what do you think somebody would think they were gaining at that point when they're being branded, when they're being forced to have sex with somebody that's their leader. Imagine it's a slow drip. These are not women who are being recruited off the street, Hey come join a sex calton, get branded. They've been told over years to trust these people. So when these people they're superior, say do join this new new group. It'll make you a better person, it will empower you. These are well that they they've developed relationships with um that they wouldn't believe with awesome to do anything that was wrong. And the thing about indoctrination is that the line bending. You know, it's like your moral compass gets removed. It's the same as any sex trafficking victims. By the end, you truly believe that you are doing what you're doing because it's building character. Now when you look back, people are horrified, they're like, how could I How could I have been that person? But it actually create you create a whole new persona. That's very frightening to think how fragile the human psyche is, that we can actually be turned into somebody else, whether it's terrorist training or any type any you know, any type of indoctrination is very scary. It's as simple as being in a bad relationship with a jerk. You stay and stay and stay, and it's like I always hear, oh, if that happened to me, I'd leave right away, and it's like, no, you know, And that's that's the most relatable part. Is you stay and you think, if I just do this, this will get better. If I say this, if I act better, this will get better. And they're just sucking these people in. But yeah, that's where I thought was so fascinating about it, is that anyone could be sucked into this. And that's what's so terrifying. Although he was so gross and creepy that I thought, but the original payment, I know, right, the original payment to even do the first set of seminars was how much money? Trying to remember, but it was I thought, So you have to have a certain that's a that's a real barrier to entry. A lot of people don't have that. So he's asking for a certain level of clientele or whatever people to bring in. Well, he's also saying that it's worth putting this on credit. Yeah you need this. When I first heard and Katherine can explain it again, what how they sold it? Even me, I was like this, this would have been something I kind of thought, Oh, I take this class like and then you just go I'm not at all suggesting that there's a direct analogy. But we're all here in southern California. And if you go to certain areas and you see people on the street in the scientology uniforms or whatever, do you have a different thought now than you would have had had you not had this this insight and and things. Well, I wasn't never a fan of scientology because that to me was under when I learned about, you know, the sort of the mystical or spiritual aspect or the alien thing, I'm like, okay, how could anybody fall for that stuff? Because it was religious, this was secular, so it was easier for me too. But I am not a fan of self help. If I was cynical, I am like super cynical if you mean to have self help when it comes to these MLM any type of self help that's not an accredited therapist, any of these large group trainings. I'm like, stay away, keep your money. If you need fellowship, go to a twelve step program for free. If you're not an addict, have a great life, you're great, you're fine. Just forget about it because the danger I mean, self help in this country alone is an eleven billion dollar a year business and it is completely unregulated. Right, So yeah, I'm not a fan. Well, we've learned a lot just the beginning. It's really I know, there's so much more. What's in the true Hollywood story? Well, actually when they interviewed me, it was like three days off to my house burn down in Malibu, and I don't I don't remember what I said, but it was probably pretty wrong. It was very wrong. But it was based again on my book Captive. And so they asked me a lot of questions about um information that's in the book and will will soon stand and a breakdown of the steps that I took to help bring this hold down, which was not a fight that I would have chosen. And in here as well as their steps on the signs if you are entering a cult as well, Yes, definitely that you know, if you're you're there, or you've heard of one, or you're thinking about it, you know, or if you have a child in one. Yes, exactly, okay, exactly, Well, thank you so much for I mean, this is it's heartbreaking, but I think it's really good for people to hear, because so many people stumble into these things and have no idea what they're getting themselves or their family into until it's too late, and you were able to turn things around, and yeah, well thank you. This is one of the rare times when the victims were protected. Feel very blessed. So you have four kids, Holliday, it's a good age range. I call them the olders and the younger's, so eighteen twelve, and what's your thoughts on spanking. I have never raised a hand, not once. I haven't either, But I have a question because all of this has been going on after Sunday's episode of Keeping Up the Kardashians because of this like stressy, messy like situation between one of Courtney's children scratching somebody and then uh, Corey saying I would what was that I would? The quote was, oh, I'd be whipping her ass and then obviously the parents are upset by that. Um, so it really I started trying to figure out all of the information regards to spanking. I mean, I've been spanked, not the way I said that sounds a little creepy, but I used to when I was younger. I I remember too spanking. They were like big deals and other than that, I would get like kind of the arm squeeze, right, but that that's kind of where it stopped. But because of that one spanking, I still like one of the spankings. I have never been late to this day because of fear because of that spanking that I got for being late. All right, I'll tell you my h my childhood spanking story. Um. I used to you know what a super Bowl is like about the super bouncy ball? Okay, so I used to enjoy bouncing the super Bowl in the shower and then timing how long it would bounce. Sounds like a good game, and it was. And my father was like, you're going to break the shower door. And my father is very like gentle, not vol person, but he always said, when you break the shower door, I will kill you. And so, um, you know, months later, I broke the shower door, and my mother was like, wait till your father gets home. You know he's gonna kill you. And so I was the field anticipation of the spank saw like twelve pairs of anywhere, because I you know, and I mean I deserved it because I had been warned and everything else. And then you know, he kind of yelled at me, but nothing really happened, yelled at me and you're gonna pay for this and blah blah blah, and nothing really happened. And then at night, uh, chucking me in uh, he said, oh, and you know your mom told me you put on twelve pairs of anywhere. They still on and I was like no, and he goes now and then nothing happened. But that that so that was as effective. You just got an almost speaking. See, I got a real speaking and I was told that my birthday party was going to be canceled, okay, which to me, when you're however old you're I think I was like ten years old. I was like, this is pure devastation. Um, but yeah that I I respected that spanking for the rest of my life. That being said, I do not spank my kids. And if somebody who was not well. I mean, even if it was my husband if I mean, my husband had been spanked when he was younger as well, but if what if he tried to do it, that'd be a whole another issue. But somebody that's not even family is saying that they would spank my children the level of crazy you would see me go. There are no words, but you know it's funny. I'm obviously touch older than than you guys. When I was in sixth grade, in our sixth grade classroom hung a paddle and the paddle was named One side of the paddle was called Wizzard and the other side was called Flasher. And I don't think they ever took it down, but it was there. I mean, I think that now we're in the day where we're constantly being told different ways to discipline your kids. I mean even now they're saying a time out isn't right because they shouldn't be alone by themselves, because that's where you know, So there's what what what's your age? Ridge? R age range is five seven and eleven? All right, does anybody have a phone? Nobody has all My stepdaughter has a phone, but it's just so when she's with us, she versa, but there's no games. But I think that the spanking of today with kids of a certain age just to take the phone, take, take the phone away. Yeah, I mean, my son has a little bit of like he gets nervous about certain things. So we talked to somebody and they're like, definitely, don't give him a time out because he already takes himself out and then that's more alone time. But and it's like, so, is there no parenting going on with the parents, because is that why we have millennials that don't do anything? Well, that's a whole another thing. I mean, watching I say all of these things. You know, I want to make sure that I raised my kids the same way I I was raised. But I'm not because I'm not doing a lot of one. I'm a helicopter parent because I have to be in Los Angeles. Yeah, I'm I don't think that's necessarily true. I grew up here, My kids obviously have grown up here, and like this whole idea, you know, oh my gosh, if you're not keeping an eye on them, someone's gonna plug your kid out of your front yard and kidnap them. As a practical matter, that does not happen. It just doesn't know. But I used to be able to ride my bike to school to my friends south in Los Angeles. That isn't in their closest friend is thirty five minutes in the car. You know what I'm saying, There's not We don't live in a little neighborhood where the kids can ride their bikes. Just this story. So I was taking care of my nieces the other day. I'm in the living room of my house with a front patio that has a gate, right and one of my nieces inside. My mom is also there. So there's two adults, two kids. One of my nieces is playing inside, my other niece is playing in the front patio with a gate. The ups man walked in with a package. Obviously, my little niece got a little startled by the ups man, and the ups man yelled at me, raised his voice. You need to watch your daughter better. How dare you leave her out here? She could be grabbed? And I'm like attached to my house. But that level of paranoia, it's that level of paranoia, but also it's that level of people thinking they need to tell other people what to do all of the time, Like why does this random stranger really think he needs to tell me how to parent? Or why do I mean? It's it's no matter what we're doing, it's driving in the car, it's you know, you you you'd be a better parent if you did this, you'd be a better parent if you did that. Are you even a parent? You know half the time that people judging or you know, like when they were parents, they didn't do that great of a job anyway. But I just feel like the level of judgment is so extreme when it comes to being a parent. But I do agree with the fact that if somebody said to me, like I'm gonna whip your kids out, I'd be like, really, uh, we're going to take a time out now from each other. Like I'll tell you a parent story. So my daughter number two, whose name is Rory, who Amy knows has every good quality, but has always been loud. She's got a loud voice, and she had a as a child, a piercing scream and one of these screams where everybody would turn like why are you beating your child? She's screaming so much, And so she and I were like, she's like two maybe or two or three. The two of us are flying back from Hawaii to l A and it's one of those rare Oh we've been upgraded, and I'm like, you know what, I cannot have a screaming child in first class. We'll just so we're in the very back row and she is sleeping the entire time, and then I think that flights about five hours. So about four hour after four hours, she wakes up and just starts to scream, and she screams for base and the flight attendant that can we help you? And I did. Anyway, she screams from forty five minutes straight. So the next day on the morning news, kind of just as a joke, I'm like, oh, you know, if you were on United flight seven yesterday from now Am, I apologize. That was me and my daughter, And somebody wrote me this note. You know, I'm so glad you said something. I was at l A X last night and always picking up my sister who had just spent two weeks in Maui, and when she walked off the plane her hair was standing on end. But like, what do you do? You know, I kind of give really, you know, I most of the time will flying coach with my family because well I don't like spending a ton of money. That's that's that's money to me. I think it's a waste of money. But if my kids, their legs barely go over the seat, so if they accidentally touched the seat in front of you, and you get like the death player, like are you watching listen, I'm watching them, but like, take a little breath or you know, save up and start flying private because this is the real world here and occasionally people are going to touch your seat and I'm doing the best I can and you adding that extra pressure and giving me dirty looks like and you know that there may be a touch of generation to that, because I remember, you know, my parents saying to me, you know, we didn't fly until we were twice, Like, you know, to be on a plane when you're a kid is amazing. But now it's taken for granted. Now it's taken for grant. And also, people love to say other people are doing things wrong. It makes them feel so good. I can sit here and be miserable on this flight because this person is making me feel that way, as opposed to taking a deep breath and saying, you know what, it's this, this and this that I've done today that's actually making me feel like crap. Or it's a fact that your knees are touching the seat in front of your making yeah, I mean, Or it's just my kids are driving, you're freaking that and I'm sorry. Are they well behaved generally or not? Yes? I give them about an eight? Okay, alright, it's good, it's good enough. Okay, We're gonna go on a quick break and then take a breath and then bring on a specialist to help us even more. Good Ginger, Hi, it's Teddy and Sam here. How are you hi, Teddy? How are you Hiam? We are. We're both parents. So we have a lot of questions, like, for one, how are you even supposed to pair anymore? There's so many malls? I know, I know, yes, So example, we've been okay, we've been talking about how you know, there's been a lot of things in the news about you know, spanking and time out and even everybody getting first place and you know, we're all getting trophies. Like there's so many discussions and so many rights and wrongs. Now I know that, like, yes, of course you trust your instinct, but like what are the are there is there any kind of tips that you can give us to kind of you know, give us a clear line. Yes. So one, um, there's so many things happening in and acceptable ways of discipline. I call it like there's this public parent right, so what society feels that we should be parenting in a way that we should pear in. Then there's this way that you know, context of how we want to raise our children. And so sometimes about the like there's this dichotomy about what other opinions kind of influence the way we ultimately want to pear in our kids. But I would say as far as like discipline and how we discipline our kids, I think it's a personal It's very personal and based on your context. Because we can use discipline as you know, correct behavior, or we can use it as a way to like inform how they'll be disciplined in the future. And so I think we can just like I think the way we look at discipline should shift a little bit, because you know, kids are sponges, they're they're they're you know, absorbing everything and they're learning ways to like communicate, uh, deal with conflicts, all of that stuff. So there's a lot happening. But I think you just have to define what it is that we ultimately want to see in our children. Now, Ginger would seem to me that the notion of you know, smacking your kid is probably remote and it's probably a bad idea. But at the same time, I suspect their parents who would say, you know what, if I got really out of line, my mother gave me a whack and look, I turned out fine, so it was okay for me. It's it's yes, um, So there's that. Yeah. I get a lot of parents who say the old school way of discipline, right, so that you know, my my father and my mother was heavy with the hand um and or rules with the iron face, and so I think times have changed in terms of no, it didn't necessarily break you as an individual, but it didn't pour into you. So I'm all like, let's not look at the deficits as far as like spanking, but what can we pour into our children that will probably get better results and yield um, better relationships in life in the future. So I kind of like try to switch it and not like focuses on like, yeah, you could slap your kids, but you could also show them or be what we want to see in our children, which is showing them the way to interact with the doults, showing how to deal with conflict. So well, I mean, it's kind of how I've been talking to my parents. Yes, because well, one, I did some research and it's actually illegal to spank your kids if you leave a mark. So this is true. But I feel like a lot of people don't even know that, And so I'm wondering how parents when when yes, doing what's best for their kids, but like, how are they supposed to know what's actually legal even and what's okay because if they were brought up a certain way. I, for one, don't spank and don't believe in that. But I did get spanked when I was younger a couple of times. I just choose to not continue it on. But I don't know for those of the you know, how, how how would you explain these are some clear ways to actually discipline your child. Sure, Um, so it's hard that. I mean, so there's this thing I've used to work with children, um that um kind of were used and neglected, and so I've seen the gamut of what um, you know, physical discipline has done, not only physically but emotionally and so ways it for me as a mental health professional, we talk about you know, discipline and what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. A lots of schools and teachers UM usually talk to two kids and parents about like them being mandated reporters UM as though if you know, if they hear a suspective any abuse, and so there's that part as far as physical abuse. Of what I say is that children do require discipline, but I also look at it as a way an opportunity to teach them what they should be doing. And then we have to deal with the content. So if they are being unsafe or some of it, what they're doing is not going to be UM make them a productive uh you know citizen in the society. I think we have to address it. But I think it's case by I have to practical examples. So let's say you have a five year old that darts out into the street and you have to grab your kid. How do you then teach them not to do that? That's my first question, right, So one, you got to catch them because it's unsafe, But then the practical part is I have to teach them what I want to see from them. So that is a demonstration of I'm gonna walk them through the story, look less, look right, have them understand the consequences. So it's almost like we're being an example of what we want to see as opposed to just saying what we don't want to see. If we have to tell them what we want to see in them. Okay, So then let's fast forward to sixteen year old who is lying or talking back, or drinking or doing things you don't want your sixteen year old doing. How do you parent that child? So you you have to immediately address the negative behavior and UM, definitely, UM make a consequence because what I say that it has to be depend on the child, because taking a cellphone away from one child may just they may get it, and taking a cellphone away from another child they may not. It may not be something that's gonna improve their behavior. So you kind of have to know what what motivates your child. And I say sometimes you have to take away some of those privileges that they are used to until they kind of change their behavior and ultimately and show them what you want to see and getting to the bottom of why they're doing what they're doing, because there's there's more to the action. There's something behind it, and how do you feel about Like the reward chart. I've noticed my son showing great improvements since we stopped doing like time outs and more. If you do these things, then you get a heart, and then after this many hearts, you get this. I think it's I love actually the reward chart because it's essentially you are investing in what you want to see for them, and then it's um kind of natural rewards like a heart, high five. And I'm sure you maybe it progresses to other things, but it's natural rewards, and so they are more focused on what you want to see or what will be more positive than the negative consequences of behavior. I've also seen a lot of My parents didn't even bother with me I was so bad at school. But I've seen a lot of parents disciplining their children because of grades. So I'm curious what is the alternative to my kids aren't really at that age yet, but to those parents that are putting so much pressure on their kids that their kids end up just giving up. Yes, so, well, one we gotta see where our kids are. Um. I see a lot of kids who have a lot of test anxiety, a lot of school anxiety because there's so much pressure, um, either from their parents, society about getting into college, etcetera. And so the parents then feel like the punishment is going to get a better result of behavior when actually they need to start asking more questions. So it could be a matter of discipline, so it couldn't be a matter of okay, homework time, tutors. There's things that we can again pour into our children that are to have a schedule for them. Yes, definitely. And I feel like anxiety is something that wasn't really talked about when I was growing up, and now we hear it so often in kids. And now you know, same with a d D or a d h D, Like these are things that are way more people are way more open to discuss now, and kids are talking about it, And so I was just kind of curious, what the best if you're feeling like your kid is struggling with one of these things and you don't you don't have the means, or you don't know what to do, Like, what do you recommend in that case? So you're right, Um, I think we're is more socially acceptable to talk about anxiety. Um, and we are beginning to see it through a lot of avenues of the impact of anxiety. I mean, kids aren't going to school. They they you know, there's physical menasation, manifestation, so they're stomach egg. They may say, I don't want to go to school because of X, Y and Z. But what can we do as a parent to support the children. I I'm a firm believer in just having a conversation with your child about what is impacting them so um and looking at the physical symptoms. So that means maybe you have to modify your expectations of them so it reduces their stress level. UM acceptance is huge, So accepting that you do your bet. I want you to do your best, and whatever your best is, that's what I accept, not necessarily what I think your best should be, but what they're the child's best is in that moment, because it can be hard as well, because your kids are so smart that sometimes they know how to manipulate you as well. So sometimes they may be having anxiety, but sometimes they're smart little buggers, you know, like mom is true, my son will be like Mommy, I just really need to sleep in bed with you tonight. It's I'm not feeling that good. I'll be like, buddy, do you really not feel good? Or do you just want to sleep with me? I just want to sleep with you? But can I uh yeah, so so and of course you ultimately know that that's the one over right. So so I say, look at like consistent, inconsistency, and inconsistent see of behavior. So for a child who's typically doing well in school, typically gets good grades, or typically is um you know, performing in a performance well, and then they have those isolated or moments where they did I mean that would say Okay, something's not right or something's not wrong, or something's wrong with my child. I need to look more into that. Or if the opposite, if they're constantly struggling with a subject matter, they're constantly um have fear of being on stage, there may be something more to it again that we have to look into. So it's not just the materials, but there's some more things. There are questions that we need to ask. Okay, thank you so much for all your help today. We really appreciate it. Welcome, thank you so much for having me. I think that, you know, maybe we'll talk again. You know, you guys have a great pace. Oh, thanks Ginger, thanks so much. You know what I what I think now is everything is so much more like concentrated, you know, than than than it used to be. So this idea that the kids are anxious about things, there's so much more surrounding them, I think kind of to make the major's So that's and then the other thing, and I will speak from experience here. The whole college thing is everybody gets in somewhere, it's all gonna be fine. You just have to completely relax and let go of it, because I know kids and parents. You know, for the parents, it's projection. They don't they want uh Debbie to get in to Stanford because they want to get into Stanford because they didn't themselves. So are all parents just basically screwing up their kids? I mean, even listening to the parenting expert, I'm like, is she actually telling us what to do? Like it's all just a crapshoot? Am I Right? Well, don't you? I think the thing that that's most unusual And you see this on occasion where you will meet super nice parents and for whatever cosmic reason, the kids are crappy. So kids are because you don't see everything you don't see the full rounded thing. And I think kids are smart, they know what's going on. So I know the biggest thing for me that's helped with my kids is if I tell them if I'm stressed or if i'm in like I've got a ton of work to do, instead of just not being present, like I'm like, hey, guys, I need one hour. I really need to like hunker down this hour so that then I can focus on you guys. And then I set their expectations and then everything's better. Whereas I pretend to be super mom all the time and I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. I'm gonna oh ha ha, that's so funny. Mean while I'm looking at my phone. Then all of a sudden, they start acting out because they don't know what's happening and they want attention. And we do that as adults too, like even your your wife or my husband comes home from work or vice versa. You know, you take things personally unless the person come you nicates with you what they need. But but you see, I think even I think it's a good idea, but even the phrase, uh, you know, as a parent, to help my kids set their expectations, that to me is like a phrase like my mom and dad would never like what you know, but I know what I like. I think I parent the way that I personally like to live my life. Yeah, I mean, and then this whole nature versus nurture. I have three daughters and a son, and everybody said with with my daughters constantly like just you wait and wait for what they've They've really all turned out in credit their nice girls and there's not too much of that eye rolling and all the things that you know that you would expect. But I heard that from and you know this whole idea. Well, girls are harder than like I find. Uh, my son, who I'm enjoying more and more as it gets a touch older, was much more of a challenge. Girls were easy because boys have so much more energy there. Well, my son is like such a lover and a cuddler and all those things. Um, But like my daughter, when I walk her into school, she's like, can you walk behind me? Please? Do you mind not kissing me at school anymore? I'm like, oh, we're there, you're in the first grade. Do you mind that shirt that you just asked me to buy for you not wearing it? Like and wearing something else hello um, but you try not to take it personally. But then you remember when you were a kid. And then one thing, which may be very uh l a centric, do you find this at pick up? I'm like, you know what, I've never seen that rules Royce before. It's like it's keeping up with the Jones and I cannot. I can't do it. And when the mom starts telling me how great of a mom she has all the time and all the things she juggles, and I'm like, honestly, I don't have the time for this friendship. I just find every forty year old is just totally messed up from the damage that's been done to them. It's like everybody's just a big pile of mess and nobody is perfect and it's the people. And you know, I I struggled as well. I wish I was perfect, but I have made multitude of mistakes every day. But I think it's important that your kids see that you can make mistakes. The life still goes on and that if you work hard, good things come. I mean that's the end of the day, that's what you and that they're loved right exactly. That's the most important. If they know that, then that trump's everything else. Yeah, if your kids feel love and they have the basic skills of survival, they're gonna be fine. I think I don't want to retitle this podcast because it has a great name already, but it's like, relax, We're all going to be fine. That should be that could be it um because people just panic. People panic, and then they start and then they start asking everybody and their mother what today we're gonna get? Everybody else's advice is make sure you guys are emailing us at Teddy t E D D I T T E A at I heart radio dot com. And then we will addres set on next week's episode because I know you guys are gonna want to dig even deeper. Lisa is digging this week and hers is My issue for open marriage slash swingers is what if your significant other brings home a disease? Um. I'll tell you what. I've always had this idea, uh do if you ever go watch stand up comedy? I think some of you think, oh I can do it. So here's just the beginning of a stand up bit, which I think would be very effective. You know, everybody's so into all this you know, open marriage stuff and and swing you know the you know the problem with threesomes. There's just too much talking. Isn't that a great first line? Nothing after that that has to do with STDs. But so the feedback guy got is we forgot to ask the swinging couple, how do they avoid disease? And lot of these open marriage people to avoid getting and did you speak with them on the phone, did you meet them? I mean, I don't know that I necessarily need to ask the therapist this condoms are they using them though we don't know. I don't know, but they should be. I would assume that that is a rule. By the way, I did learn that there's a kind of condom that people are using that doesn't actually protect you from disease. It only protects you from being pregnant. Oh yeah, that's true. I like versus I mean, hello, I think they actually say that in some of the labels that people lead their condom labels. I have a latex allergy, So I'm not one to speak a latex allergy because I had a latex bandage on my body once and it was like fire. It was like my whole body was on fire. And someone was punching me from the inside, and then it took days for it to go back to normal. I get that like from latex, from the glue when I have fake eyelashes on. We've learned a lot. Thank you Sam for joining me today. I love getting your thoughts and feedback and helping me dig deep on all these times. Well, I tell you what today I feel. We've been through it. We've been through a lot of things today. Happy to be your thanks, appreciate it. H