This is Teddy Teapot. Hi guys, welcome back to Teddy te Pod. Um. I'm gonna start this week. I have to kind of dedicate this teapod to like our little dog, Klisi. Um. It's crazy because I have to kind of get in the right mindset to even talk about what's happened the past couple of weeks. But UM, this week's podcast, we're going to talk about grief and how we process grief, how we talk to our kids about grief. Um. And I realized that I'm talking about a pet and so many others are talking about a person. But I think that there's a lot to talk about here and none of us know how to process it. So I figured I'd start by just telling my story for those of you who don't know. Um, my kids and I have we have a family dog. Her name was Kalisi. Um. We loved her so very much. We still do. And last maybe it was like two weeks ago, my husband, kids and I were heading to Orange County for my stepdaughter's birthday party. And you know, we have a dog, and we were thinking what's the best thing for the dog, Probably not to ride in the car with us, you know, an hour and a half in traffic, try to figure out what to do with her during the party. Blah blah blah, you know, like all of those things that you think about when you have a loved one. And she had been to this doggie daycare place before, and I was like, oh, she could have a fun play day. Blah blah blah. The kids and I pack her up, drop her off. We see the people there, we see the other little doggies. It's not, you know, they're not like locked up in crates. It's say, if you know, we think everything's great. And right around the time we're pulling into Orange County, pulling into my stepdaughter's birthday, I get a hysterical phone call um from the woman who owns the facility. I can't even make out what she's saying, but I know it's her phone number, so i'm I can hear that she's saying. I'm at the vet, so I say, can you please put the vet on? I talked to the vet and they say that Clissy's not breathing. She's going to need to go on life support and they don't know what happened to her. Um. So so many things happen when you're in that moment, like, the first thing is, holy crap, we're walking into my stepdaughter's birthday party and I'm about to have to fake this right now. Number two is you're dog gonna make it? Number three? What this is all my fault? I should have never dropped her off at this place. I should have figured something else out. Number four, what am I going to tell my kids? They know where she is, you know, because when I was little and something happened to your family petish, all of a sudden they were gone, and then miraculously they you know, I don't remember even what happened, but my kids knew where our dog was because they were with me when we dropped her off. So I figured out how to numb myself throughout the birthday party, waiting for Vets to call, waiting for more information, um, you know, trying to have the best time possible, praying and hoping she was gonna be okay, you know, messaging the vet, messaging the woman, trying to figure out details. I can't get really any details. Long story short, what they think happened is she either had brain or final injury from a fall and she passed away. So that night, you know, I asked, can I come in? They said, there's no point. You can't touch her, you can't talk to her. She's like in a you know, and like a it's not a box, but she's like in you know, on life support. That there's nothing you can do, and she's not responsive. She won't hear you, she won't know that you're there. And uh so then I just had to wait and uh then three in the morning, the vet called and they said, yeah, she's um, she passed. Oh first before that, they sent a message if she starts to pass, do you want to do? Um? Do you want us to do life altering measures to resuscitate her? And I said, you know, I want you to do whatever you would do for your dog. You know, I don't want to put her in more pain, but of course I want her to live. So just you do you know what I truy, you know, I'm trusting in the pet. And so at three am they caught me and like we're in the stage now where like my son sleeps in the same room as me and my husband, and you know, the girls are in the room next door, and I don't know what to do. I don't know how I'm going to tell the kids. I just started sobbing. My husband is looking at me, and you know, I'm also emotional. I'm six and a half months pregnant. I'm not trying to make this about me. But I really didn't know how to process this or even tell the kids. So I started doing research online and how do you tell your children when a loved one or a pet or something passes away. I ended up finding this like book about it, and I learned some of the key things to do, and they said, you know, number one, don't say that the don't lie to your kids. Number two, don't say that your dog passed away randomly, because then your children will fear just passing away randomly. Um, don't say that your dog passed away or died in its sleep, because then your kids will be scared to go to sleep. And um. So I was like, okay, you know, now I have the tools now. And then all of a sudden, in your mind, You're like, well, maybe I should wait throughout the weekend. Maybe I don't need to really tell them yet, maybe I could just fake it. And then I was like, I just can't. And so the next morning, when the kids wake up. We told them, and they all had very different reactions. Um Slate immediately started crying and she had anger. She was mad at the place I know how to take care of her. How could this happen? How could this happen? Why would she do that? Um Bella was quiet, not really asking anything. And then Cruise was very you know, like he's too little, Like he almost made a joke where he was like, well, you know, Santa's got work to do, you know, Like it's just so crazy how kids process it differently. So we've spent the last week or so going through this where sometimes we're crying, sometimes we're laughing, sometimes we're looking at pictures and like remembering the good times. And then sometimes I'm just numbing it because I am doing so many things right now and I don't want I don't want to bring my energy onto the kids or I also, you know, I realized that I'm having to go to work and do things like that and I can't bring my sadness into it. But I also know I have to be vulnerable and grieve. But you know what, I don't really know how. So we're going to bring um David Kessler on in a bit to kind of go through the grieving process and give us some advice, because I know there are so many of us going through the holidays where maybe you're grieving a loved one, or maybe somebody is sick, or you're not sure how to talk to your kids about their grandparents passing or whatever it may be. There's so many different topics on this point. And you know, I did a something on my Instagram and it just blew up with questions. So I really just want to get his take on everything. So we're gonna take a little break and then come back with him. Hi. So now we're on with David Kessler. He is the author of five best selling books, one of them being The Needs of Dying, and his services have been used by Elizabeth Taylor, Carrie Fisher, Jamie Lee Curtis, among many others. And we are so grateful to have you here today because we need some help around here on Teddy Teapot. I'm glad to be with you. Thank you so much. So um, I just recently shared a story about how we just lost our family pet and kind of a more we weren't ready for it, you know, like it was just a random occurrence and accident that happened, and why the dog was in somebody else's care and we weren't able to say goodbye. And we're kind of going through the where we're crying, then all of a sudden we're laughing, then we're numb, then we're not talking about it, then we're talking about it NonStop. Do we get a new dog? So that's kind of where we are um and then I also have a lot of listener questions about grief as well, So I was kind of curious, since you're professional for loss in regards to anyone, what do you think the best way to tell your kids is? Well, I think honesty and simplicity is the best way. I think the kids know and we're not telling the truth. And part of the problem is is they feel it, and kids think it might be something they did wrong. So I don't believe in giving too much information, but I think in you know, whatever your beliefs are, whether you believe your dog went to heaven, grandpa went to heaven, or they died, whatever it may be, to tell them the truth. I mean they understand this Sesame street other you know, every Disney movie has a death in it, So kids get the concept. And do you think that grief can pop up at any time, like even years down the road, or is there like a standard protocol for how long someone grieves. I know that sounds crazy, but I mean, I'm curious for myself. Well, people think there's some timeline in grief and there isn't. But the reality is grief changes. So first of all, I want to just ask you, what's your dog's name. Her name's Galici Gleasie Calisi, Calisi, because I don't want to talk about her as a loss. She's more than a loss. My rule on pet law says, if the love is real, the grief is real. So when we talk about loss, you're always going to remember her, You're always going to love her, but in time, hopefully you'll grieve her with more love than pain. Right now, it's all pain, but in time that will change and be different. But you're never going to forget her. You're never going to get over her. And at some point you'll all know whether it's time for a new dog and when that is. And there's no there's no hard rule on any of this. You know, you have to figure out what's right for you and what's right for your best friend or your neighbor might be completely different for you. Yeah, and then if when it comes to loss and you start to feel like almost anger or you like for me or the kids, like we are we're trying to process through the anger if this happened in somebody else's care, like, we don't want to be angry. We want to practice forgiveness, and but how do you move through that? Well, it's interesting because our generation is one of the first generations that we have feelings on feelings. We have anger, but then we feel like we shouldn't be angry. We're sad, but we shouldn't be sad. The reality is, if you're angry, be angry, find healthy ways to get that out. You know, have a two minutes scream in honor of your anger. You know, go have a run in honor of your anger, because you have to get that anger out. You can't go to forgiveness too quick, you know. The new book that I have is called Finding Meaning, And people want to sometimes skip the anger and skip the pain and just go to the we're done with it. But you can't go right to forgiveness. You've got to let the anger out and then how do you get past the guilt? Like for for us, I'm you know, why did I why did I drop her off? There? This is my fault. I could have figured something else out, you know, it was my responsibility. You know, I'm taking putting the bloom, you know, I mean they're angry at her. I'm taking all the blame, putting it all myself. So, first of all, we can't fathom that death occurs. So we want to something so uncontrollable like death. We want to blame ourselves or the other person, and we flip fall back and forth between both, and the reality is you, I'm sure you dropping her off. You did not know this was going to happen. And had you known, you wouldn't have. So, you know, we blame ourselves for information we didn't have. No one could have known she was going to die. Yeah, and so you were taking care of her, thank you? Right? Is that isn't that true? Could you like you didn't know? You were like you know, doing something that you know she was about to die. And it's so strange we have this way that we blame ourselves for dropping our pet off or for going to lunch, and then our husband gets killed in a car accident, or we let our kids out to play and something horrible happened to them. We can't understand that death happens, and so the reality is it does, and it's heartbreaking, and our body and soul and psyche are built to take a number of hits this lifetime. And part of your work for your kids is to model grief is sad, Grief is anger, Grief is painful, and grief is also living on and finding ways to honor your dog, honor our loved ones. It will take time, but you know, we just can only stay present with whatever feelings we have. Do you think there's a way to process grief before it even happens, Well, we do. We have what we call um anticipatory grief, like when your loved one has Alzheimer's or cancer or something, or your dog. Does we anticipated or we think, you know, someday our parents will die. So we do have that grief that we process a little before someone dies, but we still have grief afterwards. And I know, like in my past, I whenever I would feel sadness or grief, I would, you know, turn to food for comfort. Right? Is this a common thing when it comes to grief and how do people work on that when that starts to happen. Well, like anything, you know, at first, first of all, you know, food is comfort, so we all go to that. We want to bring food to someone's house. So you just want to know that. You know, when things happen early on, you probably are going to turn to food. It's not a good permanent strategy to deal with grief, so we want to make sure at a certain point we feel those feelings. It's interesting in this new book, when I was doing research finding meaning I read and I had no idea about this. I read about how buffaloes when a storm is coming, the buffaloes run into the storm, and because they run into the storm, they minimize their time. And the hard part where the opposite. When grief comes, we run from it and we are like dealing with it for a longer period of time. So I think, you know, we don't know how to do what our great grandparents did and just how to sit with these feelings. You know, we're such a productive, get on with it society that when laws comes there is nothing to do. We just have to be Yeah, that makes sense. I'm gonna go into some listener questions, here, do you mind if I just do some rapid fire and you just said'd be great? Okay, great, So I'm let's start with how can my husband and I help each other cope with losing our grandparents? Ah? Well, first of all, just knowing your grief is going to be different. No two people have the same grief, so it may feel like one of you is doing better, one of you is moving forward faster, and just know that's normal. And our job is to honor our grief and not compare it to one another. That's a good point. Um is grief psychological? My body, so this person said, is the grief psychological? My body knows anniversaries without my brain identifying the day. Absolutely. I do retreats with a man named Paul Denniston. Paul does what's called grief yoga. People can find out about him at grief yoga dot com and it's interesting. He talks about grief gets stuck in our body, and just like your listener knows, it's so true. Even if you happen to forget the day, your body remembers. So grief is in our heart, it's in our mind, and it's in our body. Our mind works against us. Our mind tells us that's our fault. Our heart knows what to do. Our body will sometimes store the grief. So your listener is very attuned to their body that they know that. So what are some of the things they do when they're starting to feel it or they're starting to feel that pain and they're not sure why, but then they identify it how it's the next step. So the next step is your body needs motion. Go, oh my gosh, I'm really missing my husband, my wife, my pet, whoever it may be. I'm going to go take a walk and feel this pain, or I'm going to go to a yoga class and feel it, or I'm going to take a run. But you need motion, so it doesn't have to be a lot of motion, but just a little. Yeah, that's truthfully. That's one of the biggest thing that also helps me with anxiety as well, is if you know, really feeling anxious, I'm like, I have to go on a walk, i have to get on the bike, I have to move because when I just sit in my feelings, it gets so much worse and almost feels like debilitating. Right of course, Um, okay, how does someone deal? How does someone heal from losing their whole family so all of a sudden they're alone. Well, it's it's tragic. And people have losses in so many different ways. And by the way, I tend to think, it's always a death of something. A divorce is the death of a marriage, A breakup is the death of that relationship. A job loss is the death of that work relationship. So and estrangement. People are estrange from their family. So if you find yourself alone, obviously you want to feel whatever feelings are coming up. And we have to know it's up to us to build connections again with other people with love ones. And for some people in grief, like I have online classes with groups, sometimes it might be just connecting with other people who are in the same place at us at first. Yeah, because I know sometimes when when you're grieving or when you're struggling, the hardest thing in the world is to talk to somebody, especially talk to somebody you don't know and open up. And you know, sometimes you're in such a almost like negative headspace. The thought of building a new relationship is like no, thank you, right, And that's why sometimes you have to start with someone who's in the same place as you may be dealing with the same type of loss. And then I have somebody's asking there's three years into losing their parents and they're still not doing well. What do I do? Gosh, I'd love to know what not doing well? It looks like three years is still somewhat early in grief. I mean, I think of early grief as the first two years. So are they still missing them? Because you're going to miss them forever? You know, people ask me how long am I going to miss my spouse, my child, my parents, And my response is always how long are they going to be dead? Because if your loved one is going to be dead a long time, you're going to miss them a long time. You're always going to love them. Hopefully, in time the pain will change and you'll find ways to find meaning. The book is really about helping people with that sixth stage of grief to find that meaning. And this is hard work, this is not easy. You know, what are the six stages of Greece? So the first stage is denial. These were done by Kubler Ross, my co author, Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, And Elizabeth would have told you they're not linear, they're not a map for grief. You don't have to do them in order. I wrote this new book, Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage because I believe we're a generation that doesn't want to just stop at acceptance. You don't want to accept the loss of your family. You don't want to just accept the loss of your beloved pet. You want to make meaning. We want to make their life meaningful. We want to remember them and honor them in ways. And people sometimes here meaning and they think, are you talking about meaning in the death. No, there's no meaning in how your loved one died, but there's meaning in how you remember them. You know, when a loved one dies, when a pet dies, a part of us dies with them, but a part of them lives on in us. And how can we honor some of those memories, those traits, those qualities, So saying that, you know, we're going into the holidays, so how do you honor a loved one, and you know, without making it depressing, like how are you honoring their presence and doing your well holiday traditions or whatever it is, but without bringing I'm not bringing it down. But what is there a happy medium? Well, first of all, death is a downer. I mean that we're not going to make it a ha ha happy death. But the reality is people often believe if I go to that support group, if I go to that therapy, if I see the counselor if I go here, I'm going to be sad. The truth is the sadness is in us. So you know, as we approach these holidays, they are going to be triggering. They are going to be sad. For a lot of people, this might be the first holiday without their loved one. And sometimes I say to people early on, you have to make peace with this holiday is going to suck. You're just going to have to make peace with that. You know, you can't have a spouse, a parent eye months before the holidays and you always do the holidays with them and it's just fine. It is going to suck, and I think we have to let that be okay for a while, right. And another thing, if if somebody has lost a child, right and they're feeling alone and they're not sure how to grieve the child because nobody's relating. I know that you said that you can join support groups, but if they're not even into to that place yet, what is something they can be doing because nobody understands they're just well isolating themselves. Even more then sometimes it might be just connecting with their own pains. So, for example this book, part of the story in this book is also the story I have two kids and my younger son died, so I relate to that unfortunately. So along with my book, I have an online class that's completely free for anyone who gets the book. Your listeners can find out about that at six stage dot com s I x T H stage dot com or just go to my site grief dot com. Because sometimes it's to just honor that pain, and the pain of losing a child is horrendous, So until that person is ready to connect with others, it might be just to feel their own pain. Right, And how do you explain so if if you have kids and you know another child classes away, or if grandpa grandma passes away, Right, how do you explain that to your kids? And I know you said earlier to be honest and not too much information, and don't use euphemisms, don't say you know dad's gone on a long trip or Grandpa has gone on a long sleep, but to actually say the word they died. And you know what died means as different ages. It may mean you know they've gone to heaven. They left their body here, their spirit or sold is now in heaven or the afterlife or whatever you believe. And you know their body doesn't need to eat, drink anymore, and you know they're they're no longer in our life, but they're in our heart. And do you think that you bring young kids to a funeral? Absolutely? What age does that start? Is that always? I believe if you're old enough to love, you're old enough to grieve. And so I'll tell you bringing kids to a funeral makes us uncomfortable, but not them uncomfortable. I mean, kids find all that really interesting. But we project all our fears and as a parent, I know I don't want my kids to experience sadness, so we think we want to keep them away from it. But the reality is all our kids are going to deal with laws sometimes and it's our place as our parents to teach them about loss. So how would you how would you describe it to kids that you're going to a funeral? Like? What is so great? A question? Great? You've got good questions to think, So I would say something like do you remember how we went to Grandpa's house last year for his birthday? We all sat around and we gave him a cake and we sang Happy birthday. Happy birthday is another way we say I love you. Now we're going to gather one last time for Grandpa, and we called that gathering the last one, a funeral, and we're going to say goodbye, because goodbye is another way we say I love you. I love that so and I truly never would have thought about it like that. So I am so grateful for that. And on that note of of close family members dying, what if it's a suicide, how do you explain suicide to kids? How do you explain suicide to other family members? Right, So, the science around this has changed, and we haven't kept up with it. Our culture hasn't kept up with it. The science shows us now that addiction, mental illness, death by suicide are real illnesses that occur in our mind. They're not a choice. No one chooses to be suicidal or chooses to be addicted. And so when I explain it to kids, I might say, do you know how you can die from something in your body? Your heart is not working right, your kidneys aren't working right, your lungs aren't working right. You can also die from illnesses in your mind. And an illness in our mind is called an addiction, it's called suicidal thoughts, it's called mental illness or being mentally compromised. And we have to help people understand that these are real illnesses that get progressively worse, and people die from them even if they get treatment sometimes, and we always have so much blame around addiction and death by suicide, And I often think of what we call the three CS for family members to realize you didn't cause it, you couldn't control it, and you couldn't cure it. Right. So i've when it comes to somebody who is sick or somebody who's in the hospital. I remember when I was younger and my grandmother was dying. She was sick in the hospital, and I remember going in to see her, but I don't remember really why we were there, Like I didn't know that she was dying, right, So how would you go about explaining to your kids or to your loved ones that somebody is dying but they're not dead yet, And how do you how do you talk to the person who's sick without right. So first of all, we always want to start with the death of a person with a child, but I think it's important that we begin to just point out to our children, look how the leaves change. For every spring, there's a summer. Every summer there's a fall, every fall there's a winter. You know, every flower that blooms dies, every plant that grows dies. Our pets, unfortunately and time, will die, and so will we. And we don't have control over that. But we have control over how much love and how much fun and how much care and how it's life we have while we're here. So let's appreciate that flower while it's blooming. Let's appreciate those brown leaves that are getting older. And so I think we have to start with all that stuff with our kids. And then when we go to the hospital, we can go you know, the reality is is that you know, Grandma is going to be dying soon. And what we can do while we're there is we can rub lotion on Grandma's hand. We can talk to Grandma about some fun times we had with her, and begin to teach them how to reminisce and how to tell someone you love them and appreciate them. And what if you're a parent and your child is sick, like your child has pediatric cancer, and you're going to visit them every day, is it best to just be strong and happy every day or should you show your emotions? Like well, I'll tell you I actually started at Children's hospital in Los Angeles and I worked in the cancer unit there, and I can tell you the kids like knew they were dying, and the kids could talk about it more than their parents could. You know, the parents, of course, it's just so heartbreaking to have a child dying, so it's going to be harder for the parent to talk about it. That's why it's good, Like you know, in children's hospitals, they have child life specialists and social workers and people who are good at helping us with those conversations so that we don't have to figure those out right. And then for somebody who said they lost the love of their life and they think they will never love again, what are your thoughts on that? Well, so here's the thing. So let's first start with breakups and divorce. With breakups and divorce, part of the problem is we grieve the person who's leaving us. Are divorcing us. But the second part is we grieve the the idea that they were the one and we think we've lost the one. And I have to remind people because I do retreats also on breakups and divorce and betrayal. We have to remind people the one is not the person who leaves you. That's not your one. So but we're grieving because we think they are the one, and you have to grieve the person. And the other thing is I think we have lots of people in our lives. I'm not a believer that there's one soul mate. I mean I think sometimes there might be someone who we're supposed to be within our twenties and someone else were within our thirties and forties and fifties. I mean, life changes, you know. I think we're different than our grandparents that like every relationship was for life, no matter what right. And also what we see often happen in breakups is one person will send a text message or something saying if you don't call me back, I'm going to kill myself, or if you don't get back together with me, I'm going to end my life. What are some ways to handle when that happens if you're in a toxic relationship, and if you're in a toxic relationship like that, it's really so challenging. And what I'm going to say is so hard to do. You have two text back, I'm not equipped for this. Here is the number to the suicide hotline. I wish you well, I I want you to be happy. I want you to have a great life. Please help yourself call this number right And because the reality is sometimes it's a manipulation, sometimes it's not, and you really need a professional to sort that out. But I mean, obviously, if you're up to it, call that person, text that person, But if you feel like you know at some point you're not equipped for it, you just have to be honest that I don't know how to do this, but I want you to get care. I want you to be happy. I care about you. Please call this line to get some help or two a three way conversation with them on the suicide hotline, because you want to be there for them, you want to care, but you also don't want to deal with something you don't know how to deal with. And sometimes it's a repeated thing and you almost get like a scab to it because every tile And that's the thing I mean, you know, suicide is such a serious thing. Uh, it is not a great idea when people use it for manipulation in a relationship. Because we want to make sure everyone who's having suicidal thoughts gets care and love and knows they are needed and uh and want to here. And that's why we have to be careful not to make those confusing messages. What is your personal experience with grief and how did you get past it? You know, I don't know that I get past and I think you learned to live with it. And uh, you know, look, I grew up with a mother who died when I was thirteen and there was a mass shooting at the time. And you know, I've had a child it's died. I've had relationships that have gone sour, like most of us do. I mean, at a certain point in life, stuff goes wrong. And yet you realize everyone in this life gets something. You know, I had a son who died, but someone else got raped, someone else got assaulted, someone else's house burned down. Everyone gets something. Our job is to find healing in our something, whatever it may be. And part of writing this book is actually my healing. And I hope to people who read this new book find meaning, they're going to find, you know, healing in it, reading it the way I did in writing it. And do you think do you have any kind of like closing comments or anything you could say to our listeners who are listening to this right now feeling emotional, feeling lost and wanting to connect. Sure, you are not grieving wrong. Your body knows how to do this, Your soul knows how to do this. So honor what you're feeling. Let go of all your should's if you're judging yourself that you should be over it, or a family members telling you to move on, to let go of all that and really honor what you're feeling. I hope that people will connect with me on social media my handles or I am David Kessler. They can find me on Instagram and Facebook under I am David Kessler. And to you know, check out the book Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage. I do lots of retreats around loved ones dying or breakups, divorce. You can find them at grief dot com. Just look under events and know that you're not alone. You are not alone, and we can be here for each other. Thank you so much for today. I truly appreciate it. Oh, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it too. Okay, tux In take care, and before you guys go, a big thank you to Tokaya Organica. The rapidly expanding fresh, casual, modern Mexican restaurant chain and my kiddo's favorite. Tokaya creates both the date worthy atmosphere and the perfect place to grab a few tacos with friends at lunchtime, as each location includes an upscale bar area featuring fresh, handmade cocktails delicious Whish I could have one of those right now. The menu is fully vegan forward, yet accommodates a variety of other dietary preferences, using quality produce as its foundation. Between now and the end of the year, for every fifty dollar gift card you buy for someone on your holiday shopping list, you'll receive a ten dollar bonus gift card for yourself. Visit Tokaya Organica dot com to find your nearest location. So I think in closing, there's no right way or wrong way to grieve, you know, we just have to feel our emotions, be honest with ourselves and know that we're not alone. And if we remember those things, it's going to make some days easier, and you know what, some days it's not, but that's okay. So I, you know, I hope that this podcast was able to give you some tools but also just remind you that you are supported and there are people that you can talk to. So you can either reach out to David Kessler um David Kessler dot org. He has a lot of different ways that you can join a community, or you, of course are welcome to email us at Teddy T at I heart radio dot com or through Teddy T Podcast on Instagram. We love your questions, we want to get them answered. We feel you, we hear you, and we're there for you. Thanks guys, thanks for listening. Subscribe to Teddy T pot on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcasts.

This is Teddy Teapot. Hi guys, welcome back to Teddy te Pod. Um. I'm gonna start this week. I have to kind of dedicate this teapod to like our little dog, Klisi. Um. It's crazy because I have to kind of get in the right mindset to even talk about what's happened the past couple of weeks. But UM, this week's podcast, we're going to talk about grief and how we process grief, how we talk to our kids about grief. Um. And I realized that I'm talking about a pet and so many others are talking about a person. But I think that there's a lot to talk about here and none of us know how to process it. So I figured I'd start by just telling my story for those of you who don't know. Um, my kids and I have we have a family dog. Her name was Kalisi. Um. We loved her so very much. We still do. And last maybe it was like two weeks ago, my husband, kids and I were heading to Orange County for my stepdaughter's birthday party. And you know, we have a dog, and we were thinking what's the best thing for the dog, Probably not to ride in the car with us, you know, an hour and a half in traffic, try to figure out what to do with her during the party. Blah blah blah, you know, like all of those things that you think about when you have a loved one. And she had been to this doggie daycare place before, and I was like, oh, she could have a fun play day. Blah blah blah. The kids and I pack her up, drop her off. We see the people there, we see the other little doggies. It's not, you know, they're not like locked up in crates. It's say, if you know, we think everything's great. And right around the time we're pulling into Orange County, pulling into my stepdaughter's birthday, I get a hysterical phone call um from the woman who owns the facility. I can't even make out what she's saying, but I know it's her phone number, so i'm I can hear that she's saying. I'm at the vet, so I say, can you please put the vet on? I talked to the vet and they say that Clissy's not breathing. She's going to need to go on life support and they don't know what happened to her. Um. So so many things happen when you're in that moment, like, the first thing is, holy crap, we're walking into my stepdaughter's birthday party and I'm about to have to fake this right now. Number two is you're dog gonna make it? Number three? What this is all my fault? I should have never dropped her off at this place. I should have figured something else out. Number four, what am I going to tell my kids? They know where she is, you know, because when I was little and something happened to your family petish, all of a sudden they were gone, and then miraculously they you know, I don't remember even what happened, but my kids knew where our dog was because they were with me when we dropped her off. So I figured out how to numb myself throughout the birthday party, waiting for Vets to call, waiting for more information, um, you know, trying to have the best time possible, praying and hoping she was gonna be okay, you know, messaging the vet, messaging the woman, trying to figure out details. I can't get really any details. Long story short, what they think happened is she either had brain or final injury from a fall and she passed away. So that night, you know, I asked, can I come in? They said, there's no point. You can't touch her, you can't talk to her. She's like in a you know, and like a it's not a box, but she's like in you know, on life support. That there's nothing you can do, and she's not responsive. She won't hear you, she won't know that you're there. And uh so then I just had to wait and uh then three in the morning, the vet called and they said, yeah, she's um, she passed. Oh first before that, they sent a message if she starts to pass, do you want to do? Um? Do you want us to do life altering measures to resuscitate her? And I said, you know, I want you to do whatever you would do for your dog. You know, I don't want to put her in more pain, but of course I want her to live. So just you do you know what I truy, you know, I'm trusting in the pet. And so at three am they caught me and like we're in the stage now where like my son sleeps in the same room as me and my husband, and you know, the girls are in the room next door, and I don't know what to do. I don't know how I'm going to tell the kids. I just started sobbing. My husband is looking at me, and you know, I'm also emotional. I'm six and a half months pregnant. I'm not trying to make this about me. But I really didn't know how to process this or even tell the kids. So I started doing research online and how do you tell your children when a loved one or a pet or something passes away. I ended up finding this like book about it, and I learned some of the key things to do, and they said, you know, number one, don't say that the don't lie to your kids. Number two, don't say that your dog passed away randomly, because then your children will fear just passing away randomly. Um, don't say that your dog passed away or died in its sleep, because then your kids will be scared to go to sleep. And um. So I was like, okay, you know, now I have the tools now. And then all of a sudden, in your mind, You're like, well, maybe I should wait throughout the weekend. Maybe I don't need to really tell them yet, maybe I could just fake it. And then I was like, I just can't. And so the next morning, when the kids wake up. We told them, and they all had very different reactions. Um Slate immediately started crying and she had anger. She was mad at the place I know how to take care of her. How could this happen? How could this happen? Why would she do that? Um Bella was quiet, not really asking anything. And then Cruise was very you know, like he's too little, Like he almost made a joke where he was like, well, you know, Santa's got work to do, you know, Like it's just so crazy how kids process it differently. So we've spent the last week or so going through this where sometimes we're crying, sometimes we're laughing, sometimes we're looking at pictures and like remembering the good times. And then sometimes I'm just numbing it because I am doing so many things right now and I don't want I don't want to bring my energy onto the kids or I also, you know, I realized that I'm having to go to work and do things like that and I can't bring my sadness into it. But I also know I have to be vulnerable and grieve. But you know what, I don't really know how. So we're going to bring um David Kessler on in a bit to kind of go through the grieving process and give us some advice, because I know there are so many of us going through the holidays where maybe you're grieving a loved one, or maybe somebody is sick, or you're not sure how to talk to your kids about their grandparents passing or whatever it may be. There's so many different topics on this point. And you know, I did a something on my Instagram and it just blew up with questions. So I really just want to get his take on everything. So we're gonna take a little break and then come back with him. Hi. So now we're on with David Kessler. He is the author of five best selling books, one of them being The Needs of Dying, and his services have been used by Elizabeth Taylor, Carrie Fisher, Jamie Lee Curtis, among many others. And we are so grateful to have you here today because we need some help around here on Teddy Teapot. I'm glad to be with you. Thank you so much. So um, I just recently shared a story about how we just lost our family pet and kind of a more we weren't ready for it, you know, like it was just a random occurrence and accident that happened, and why the dog was in somebody else's care and we weren't able to say goodbye. And we're kind of going through the where we're crying, then all of a sudden we're laughing, then we're numb, then we're not talking about it, then we're talking about it NonStop. Do we get a new dog? So that's kind of where we are um and then I also have a lot of listener questions about grief as well, So I was kind of curious, since you're professional for loss in regards to anyone, what do you think the best way to tell your kids is? Well, I think honesty and simplicity is the best way. I think the kids know and we're not telling the truth. And part of the problem is is they feel it, and kids think it might be something they did wrong. So I don't believe in giving too much information, but I think in you know, whatever your beliefs are, whether you believe your dog went to heaven, grandpa went to heaven, or they died, whatever it may be, to tell them the truth. I mean they understand this Sesame street other you know, every Disney movie has a death in it, So kids get the concept. And do you think that grief can pop up at any time, like even years down the road, or is there like a standard protocol for how long someone grieves. I know that sounds crazy, but I mean, I'm curious for myself. Well, people think there's some timeline in grief and there isn't. But the reality is grief changes. So first of all, I want to just ask you, what's your dog's name. Her name's Galici Gleasie Calisi, Calisi, because I don't want to talk about her as a loss. She's more than a loss. My rule on pet law says, if the love is real, the grief is real. So when we talk about loss, you're always going to remember her, You're always going to love her, but in time, hopefully you'll grieve her with more love than pain. Right now, it's all pain, but in time that will change and be different. But you're never going to forget her. You're never going to get over her. And at some point you'll all know whether it's time for a new dog and when that is. And there's no there's no hard rule on any of this. You know, you have to figure out what's right for you and what's right for your best friend or your neighbor might be completely different for you. Yeah, and then if when it comes to loss and you start to feel like almost anger or you like for me or the kids, like we are we're trying to process through the anger if this happened in somebody else's care, like, we don't want to be angry. We want to practice forgiveness, and but how do you move through that? Well, it's interesting because our generation is one of the first generations that we have feelings on feelings. We have anger, but then we feel like we shouldn't be angry. We're sad, but we shouldn't be sad. The reality is, if you're angry, be angry, find healthy ways to get that out. You know, have a two minutes scream in honor of your anger. You know, go have a run in honor of your anger, because you have to get that anger out. You can't go to forgiveness too quick, you know. The new book that I have is called Finding Meaning, And people want to sometimes skip the anger and skip the pain and just go to the we're done with it. But you can't go right to forgiveness. You've got to let the anger out and then how do you get past the guilt? Like for for us, I'm you know, why did I why did I drop her off? There? This is my fault. I could have figured something else out, you know, it was my responsibility. You know, I'm taking putting the bloom, you know, I mean they're angry at her. I'm taking all the blame, putting it all myself. So, first of all, we can't fathom that death occurs. So we want to something so uncontrollable like death. We want to blame ourselves or the other person, and we flip fall back and forth between both, and the reality is you, I'm sure you dropping her off. You did not know this was going to happen. And had you known, you wouldn't have. So, you know, we blame ourselves for information we didn't have. No one could have known she was going to die. Yeah, and so you were taking care of her, thank you? Right? Is that isn't that true? Could you like you didn't know? You were like you know, doing something that you know she was about to die. And it's so strange we have this way that we blame ourselves for dropping our pet off or for going to lunch, and then our husband gets killed in a car accident, or we let our kids out to play and something horrible happened to them. We can't understand that death happens, and so the reality is it does, and it's heartbreaking, and our body and soul and psyche are built to take a number of hits this lifetime. And part of your work for your kids is to model grief is sad, Grief is anger, Grief is painful, and grief is also living on and finding ways to honor your dog, honor our loved ones. It will take time, but you know, we just can only stay present with whatever feelings we have. Do you think there's a way to process grief before it even happens, Well, we do. We have what we call um anticipatory grief, like when your loved one has Alzheimer's or cancer or something, or your dog. Does we anticipated or we think, you know, someday our parents will die. So we do have that grief that we process a little before someone dies, but we still have grief afterwards. And I know, like in my past, I whenever I would feel sadness or grief, I would, you know, turn to food for comfort. Right? Is this a common thing when it comes to grief and how do people work on that when that starts to happen. Well, like anything, you know, at first, first of all, you know, food is comfort, so we all go to that. We want to bring food to someone's house. So you just want to know that. You know, when things happen early on, you probably are going to turn to food. It's not a good permanent strategy to deal with grief, so we want to make sure at a certain point we feel those feelings. It's interesting in this new book, when I was doing research finding meaning I read and I had no idea about this. I read about how buffaloes when a storm is coming, the buffaloes run into the storm, and because they run into the storm, they minimize their time. And the hard part where the opposite. When grief comes, we run from it and we are like dealing with it for a longer period of time. So I think, you know, we don't know how to do what our great grandparents did and just how to sit with these feelings. You know, we're such a productive, get on with it society that when laws comes there is nothing to do. We just have to be Yeah, that makes sense. I'm gonna go into some listener questions, here, do you mind if I just do some rapid fire and you just said'd be great? Okay, great, So I'm let's start with how can my husband and I help each other cope with losing our grandparents? Ah? Well, first of all, just knowing your grief is going to be different. No two people have the same grief, so it may feel like one of you is doing better, one of you is moving forward faster, and just know that's normal. And our job is to honor our grief and not compare it to one another. That's a good point. Um is grief psychological? My body, so this person said, is the grief psychological? My body knows anniversaries without my brain identifying the day. Absolutely. I do retreats with a man named Paul Denniston. Paul does what's called grief yoga. People can find out about him at grief yoga dot com and it's interesting. He talks about grief gets stuck in our body, and just like your listener knows, it's so true. Even if you happen to forget the day, your body remembers. So grief is in our heart, it's in our mind, and it's in our body. Our mind works against us. Our mind tells us that's our fault. Our heart knows what to do. Our body will sometimes store the grief. So your listener is very attuned to their body that they know that. So what are some of the things they do when they're starting to feel it or they're starting to feel that pain and they're not sure why, but then they identify it how it's the next step. So the next step is your body needs motion. Go, oh my gosh, I'm really missing my husband, my wife, my pet, whoever it may be. I'm going to go take a walk and feel this pain, or I'm going to go to a yoga class and feel it, or I'm going to take a run. But you need motion, so it doesn't have to be a lot of motion, but just a little. Yeah, that's truthfully. That's one of the biggest thing that also helps me with anxiety as well, is if you know, really feeling anxious, I'm like, I have to go on a walk, i have to get on the bike, I have to move because when I just sit in my feelings, it gets so much worse and almost feels like debilitating. Right of course, Um, okay, how does someone deal? How does someone heal from losing their whole family so all of a sudden they're alone. Well, it's it's tragic. And people have losses in so many different ways. And by the way, I tend to think, it's always a death of something. A divorce is the death of a marriage, A breakup is the death of that relationship. A job loss is the death of that work relationship. So and estrangement. People are estrange from their family. So if you find yourself alone, obviously you want to feel whatever feelings are coming up. And we have to know it's up to us to build connections again with other people with love ones. And for some people in grief, like I have online classes with groups, sometimes it might be just connecting with other people who are in the same place at us at first. Yeah, because I know sometimes when when you're grieving or when you're struggling, the hardest thing in the world is to talk to somebody, especially talk to somebody you don't know and open up. And you know, sometimes you're in such a almost like negative headspace. The thought of building a new relationship is like no, thank you, right, And that's why sometimes you have to start with someone who's in the same place as you may be dealing with the same type of loss. And then I have somebody's asking there's three years into losing their parents and they're still not doing well. What do I do? Gosh, I'd love to know what not doing well? It looks like three years is still somewhat early in grief. I mean, I think of early grief as the first two years. So are they still missing them? Because you're going to miss them forever? You know, people ask me how long am I going to miss my spouse, my child, my parents, And my response is always how long are they going to be dead? Because if your loved one is going to be dead a long time, you're going to miss them a long time. You're always going to love them. Hopefully, in time the pain will change and you'll find ways to find meaning. The book is really about helping people with that sixth stage of grief to find that meaning. And this is hard work, this is not easy. You know, what are the six stages of Greece? So the first stage is denial. These were done by Kubler Ross, my co author, Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, And Elizabeth would have told you they're not linear, they're not a map for grief. You don't have to do them in order. I wrote this new book, Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage because I believe we're a generation that doesn't want to just stop at acceptance. You don't want to accept the loss of your family. You don't want to just accept the loss of your beloved pet. You want to make meaning. We want to make their life meaningful. We want to remember them and honor them in ways. And people sometimes here meaning and they think, are you talking about meaning in the death. No, there's no meaning in how your loved one died, but there's meaning in how you remember them. You know, when a loved one dies, when a pet dies, a part of us dies with them, but a part of them lives on in us. And how can we honor some of those memories, those traits, those qualities, So saying that, you know, we're going into the holidays, so how do you honor a loved one, and you know, without making it depressing, like how are you honoring their presence and doing your well holiday traditions or whatever it is, but without bringing I'm not bringing it down. But what is there a happy medium? Well, first of all, death is a downer. I mean that we're not going to make it a ha ha happy death. But the reality is people often believe if I go to that support group, if I go to that therapy, if I see the counselor if I go here, I'm going to be sad. The truth is the sadness is in us. So you know, as we approach these holidays, they are going to be triggering. They are going to be sad. For a lot of people, this might be the first holiday without their loved one. And sometimes I say to people early on, you have to make peace with this holiday is going to suck. You're just going to have to make peace with that. You know, you can't have a spouse, a parent eye months before the holidays and you always do the holidays with them and it's just fine. It is going to suck, and I think we have to let that be okay for a while, right. And another thing, if if somebody has lost a child, right and they're feeling alone and they're not sure how to grieve the child because nobody's relating. I know that you said that you can join support groups, but if they're not even into to that place yet, what is something they can be doing because nobody understands they're just well isolating themselves. Even more then sometimes it might be just connecting with their own pains. So, for example this book, part of the story in this book is also the story I have two kids and my younger son died, so I relate to that unfortunately. So along with my book, I have an online class that's completely free for anyone who gets the book. Your listeners can find out about that at six stage dot com s I x T H stage dot com or just go to my site grief dot com. Because sometimes it's to just honor that pain, and the pain of losing a child is horrendous, So until that person is ready to connect with others, it might be just to feel their own pain. Right, And how do you explain so if if you have kids and you know another child classes away, or if grandpa grandma passes away, Right, how do you explain that to your kids? And I know you said earlier to be honest and not too much information, and don't use euphemisms, don't say you know dad's gone on a long trip or Grandpa has gone on a long sleep, but to actually say the word they died. And you know what died means as different ages. It may mean you know they've gone to heaven. They left their body here, their spirit or sold is now in heaven or the afterlife or whatever you believe. And you know their body doesn't need to eat, drink anymore, and you know they're they're no longer in our life, but they're in our heart. And do you think that you bring young kids to a funeral? Absolutely? What age does that start? Is that always? I believe if you're old enough to love, you're old enough to grieve. And so I'll tell you bringing kids to a funeral makes us uncomfortable, but not them uncomfortable. I mean, kids find all that really interesting. But we project all our fears and as a parent, I know I don't want my kids to experience sadness, so we think we want to keep them away from it. But the reality is all our kids are going to deal with laws sometimes and it's our place as our parents to teach them about loss. So how would you how would you describe it to kids that you're going to a funeral? Like? What is so great? A question? Great? You've got good questions to think, So I would say something like do you remember how we went to Grandpa's house last year for his birthday? We all sat around and we gave him a cake and we sang Happy birthday. Happy birthday is another way we say I love you. Now we're going to gather one last time for Grandpa, and we called that gathering the last one, a funeral, and we're going to say goodbye, because goodbye is another way we say I love you. I love that so and I truly never would have thought about it like that. So I am so grateful for that. And on that note of of close family members dying, what if it's a suicide, how do you explain suicide to kids? How do you explain suicide to other family members? Right, So, the science around this has changed, and we haven't kept up with it. Our culture hasn't kept up with it. The science shows us now that addiction, mental illness, death by suicide are real illnesses that occur in our mind. They're not a choice. No one chooses to be suicidal or chooses to be addicted. And so when I explain it to kids, I might say, do you know how you can die from something in your body? Your heart is not working right, your kidneys aren't working right, your lungs aren't working right. You can also die from illnesses in your mind. And an illness in our mind is called an addiction, it's called suicidal thoughts, it's called mental illness or being mentally compromised. And we have to help people understand that these are real illnesses that get progressively worse, and people die from them even if they get treatment sometimes, and we always have so much blame around addiction and death by suicide, And I often think of what we call the three CS for family members to realize you didn't cause it, you couldn't control it, and you couldn't cure it. Right. So i've when it comes to somebody who is sick or somebody who's in the hospital. I remember when I was younger and my grandmother was dying. She was sick in the hospital, and I remember going in to see her, but I don't remember really why we were there, Like I didn't know that she was dying, right, So how would you go about explaining to your kids or to your loved ones that somebody is dying but they're not dead yet, And how do you how do you talk to the person who's sick without right. So first of all, we always want to start with the death of a person with a child, but I think it's important that we begin to just point out to our children, look how the leaves change. For every spring, there's a summer. Every summer there's a fall, every fall there's a winter. You know, every flower that blooms dies, every plant that grows dies. Our pets, unfortunately and time, will die, and so will we. And we don't have control over that. But we have control over how much love and how much fun and how much care and how it's life we have while we're here. So let's appreciate that flower while it's blooming. Let's appreciate those brown leaves that are getting older. And so I think we have to start with all that stuff with our kids. And then when we go to the hospital, we can go you know, the reality is is that you know, Grandma is going to be dying soon. And what we can do while we're there is we can rub lotion on Grandma's hand. We can talk to Grandma about some fun times we had with her, and begin to teach them how to reminisce and how to tell someone you love them and appreciate them. And what if you're a parent and your child is sick, like your child has pediatric cancer, and you're going to visit them every day, is it best to just be strong and happy every day or should you show your emotions? Like well, I'll tell you I actually started at Children's hospital in Los Angeles and I worked in the cancer unit there, and I can tell you the kids like knew they were dying, and the kids could talk about it more than their parents could. You know, the parents, of course, it's just so heartbreaking to have a child dying, so it's going to be harder for the parent to talk about it. That's why it's good, Like you know, in children's hospitals, they have child life specialists and social workers and people who are good at helping us with those conversations so that we don't have to figure those out right. And then for somebody who said they lost the love of their life and they think they will never love again, what are your thoughts on that? Well, so here's the thing. So let's first start with breakups and divorce. With breakups and divorce, part of the problem is we grieve the person who's leaving us. Are divorcing us. But the second part is we grieve the the idea that they were the one and we think we've lost the one. And I have to remind people because I do retreats also on breakups and divorce and betrayal. We have to remind people the one is not the person who leaves you. That's not your one. So but we're grieving because we think they are the one, and you have to grieve the person. And the other thing is I think we have lots of people in our lives. I'm not a believer that there's one soul mate. I mean I think sometimes there might be someone who we're supposed to be within our twenties and someone else were within our thirties and forties and fifties. I mean, life changes, you know. I think we're different than our grandparents that like every relationship was for life, no matter what right. And also what we see often happen in breakups is one person will send a text message or something saying if you don't call me back, I'm going to kill myself, or if you don't get back together with me, I'm going to end my life. What are some ways to handle when that happens if you're in a toxic relationship, and if you're in a toxic relationship like that, it's really so challenging. And what I'm going to say is so hard to do. You have two text back, I'm not equipped for this. Here is the number to the suicide hotline. I wish you well, I I want you to be happy. I want you to have a great life. Please help yourself call this number right And because the reality is sometimes it's a manipulation, sometimes it's not, and you really need a professional to sort that out. But I mean, obviously, if you're up to it, call that person, text that person, But if you feel like you know at some point you're not equipped for it, you just have to be honest that I don't know how to do this, but I want you to get care. I want you to be happy. I care about you. Please call this line to get some help or two a three way conversation with them on the suicide hotline, because you want to be there for them, you want to care, but you also don't want to deal with something you don't know how to deal with. And sometimes it's a repeated thing and you almost get like a scab to it because every tile And that's the thing I mean, you know, suicide is such a serious thing. Uh, it is not a great idea when people use it for manipulation in a relationship. Because we want to make sure everyone who's having suicidal thoughts gets care and love and knows they are needed and uh and want to here. And that's why we have to be careful not to make those confusing messages. What is your personal experience with grief and how did you get past it? You know, I don't know that I get past and I think you learned to live with it. And uh, you know, look, I grew up with a mother who died when I was thirteen and there was a mass shooting at the time. And you know, I've had a child it's died. I've had relationships that have gone sour, like most of us do. I mean, at a certain point in life, stuff goes wrong. And yet you realize everyone in this life gets something. You know, I had a son who died, but someone else got raped, someone else got assaulted, someone else's house burned down. Everyone gets something. Our job is to find healing in our something, whatever it may be. And part of writing this book is actually my healing. And I hope to people who read this new book find meaning, they're going to find, you know, healing in it, reading it the way I did in writing it. And do you think do you have any kind of like closing comments or anything you could say to our listeners who are listening to this right now feeling emotional, feeling lost and wanting to connect. Sure, you are not grieving wrong. Your body knows how to do this, Your soul knows how to do this. So honor what you're feeling. Let go of all your should's if you're judging yourself that you should be over it, or a family members telling you to move on, to let go of all that and really honor what you're feeling. I hope that people will connect with me on social media my handles or I am David Kessler. They can find me on Instagram and Facebook under I am David Kessler. And to you know, check out the book Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage. I do lots of retreats around loved ones dying or breakups, divorce. You can find them at grief dot com. Just look under events and know that you're not alone. You are not alone, and we can be here for each other. Thank you so much for today. I truly appreciate it. Oh, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it too. Okay, tux In take care, and before you guys go, a big thank you to Tokaya Organica. The rapidly expanding fresh, casual, modern Mexican restaurant chain and my kiddo's favorite. Tokaya creates both the date worthy atmosphere and the perfect place to grab a few tacos with friends at lunchtime, as each location includes an upscale bar area featuring fresh, handmade cocktails delicious Whish I could have one of those right now. The menu is fully vegan forward, yet accommodates a variety of other dietary preferences, using quality produce as its foundation. Between now and the end of the year, for every fifty dollar gift card you buy for someone on your holiday shopping list, you'll receive a ten dollar bonus gift card for yourself. Visit Tokaya Organica dot com to find your nearest location. So I think in closing, there's no right way or wrong way to grieve, you know, we just have to feel our emotions, be honest with ourselves and know that we're not alone. And if we remember those things, it's going to make some days easier, and you know what, some days it's not, but that's okay. So I, you know, I hope that this podcast was able to give you some tools but also just remind you that you are supported and there are people that you can talk to. So you can either reach out to David Kessler um David Kessler dot org. He has a lot of different ways that you can join a community, or you, of course are welcome to email us at Teddy T at I heart radio dot com or through Teddy T Podcast on Instagram. We love your questions, we want to get them answered. We feel you, we hear you, and we're there for you. Thanks guys, thanks for listening. Subscribe to Teddy T pot on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcasts.