This is Teddy Teapot. Hi, you guys, I am so excited to get into another week. I have Jen swallowed joining me today. Hi, And I mean, we are going to do your breakup? Should we call it bible? The Bible? It's the Bible. It's all the things you need to know to either get through a breakup, move on, find your voice whatever it is, divorced, get divorced, find somebody new. Um, I mean I can only start. I didn't have a ton of breakups. I mean I had high school breakups where it was like you did drive buy their house, drive by their houses and just to see if they were wrong. Is that stalking? I'm telling you in the nineties, that was a thing. We've all done it, um. But then no other than that, Like as an adult, I think I only had one serious boyfriend and he ended up being my first husband. And the way I kind of healed from it was just meeting somebody else. I think, you know, I knew it was time for us to be done. Like we broke up. I was sad because I missed him as a best friend. Wasn't mutual, it was it was mutual, So there wasn't that he didn't do anything to me. I didn't do anything to him. We just met too young, and we weren't in a place where we were willing to work to grow together, and so there was no anger. So it was like, yes, the first Christmas was really sad because it was the first Christmas I had spent without him. Um. And then you know, one day later, I met my husband out at a nightclub and headset with him the first time. You know, I didn't know that I'm the best. I did some research and we're bringing professionals in. That's fantastic. That's one way to get over it. Just move on. I mean the first couple of months Edwin and I were very messy because both of us were kind of not in a place where you you know, you think you're ready to be in a committed relationships, so we weren't. And then it just with time he realized like, oh, I kind of like this person. I should probably make an effort and it's not just a one night stand, because now it's been six months, and shoot, I love this freaking guy. You know, And when did you have the exclusivity conversation? I think the first time, well, it was two big combos. So he used to have a ponytail. He hit at night one that it was disguised and a hat like it was a hat like he had a bean me on and I didn't realize. And then the next morning I woke up at like six to my alarm and I was like, oh no, this is a hard note for me. I'm like, you gotta get out of here. And he's like, I'm like, you have a ponytail. This is a real situation. He was like, you didn't seem to mind last night. I was like, no time for kind of sexual INU window jokes either, like let's sip through it um. But we we had a lot of fun together, and then what ended up happening there was a wedding that we had gotten more serious where we were seeing each other a couple of times a week and I had a wedding hand needed to take him to. And I was like, you need to cut your ponytail and I need to know what to call you. But really what ended up happening is it led us to much more serious conversations about how we both need to make the decision if we're ready to commit, and then also if I'm going to be meeting his daughter. And then honestly, once I met his daughter, everything changed. He no longer was the guy I met at the club. He was a dad, and Isabella changed my life. I fell in love with her and everything became more serious then because you know, I was able to see the full picture and I was able to see our life together, and I knew all of a sudden, I did want children, and that I wanted to be a part of Edwin's life and Isabella's life, and I didn't want to be somebody that was committing or wasn't having those conversations that's beautiful. So I mean that was really how it was for us. It was once I got close with once I met his daughter, then everything started shifting. We you know, we had the conversation prior, because before even meeting his daughter, we wanted to have that conversation as right. So it was a wedding, his daughter everything. And you know that's why when people say like, oh, it's it's got to be right timing or this has to happen, I just I don't necessarily believe that. I think if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, and if you both really wanted to make it work, you can you can't, but you both have to be in the space correct And I don't But I don't think there's any amount of games or anything like that that you're gonna do that's going to make some guy more into you than he is get over another situation and or commit. Yeah, it's impossible. And when people like, oh, maybe if I wait longer to text back, I'm like, absolutely not there. Either I cue enough that they don't care when you text back, or they don't exactly. We have Samantha Burns coming on from love successfully dot Com and she is going to help us just truly with breakup tips. Samantha yea, Hi, it's Teddy and Gin here. Hi. Hi, how's it going. We're good, We're good. We're excited to have you on. Thanks so much for inviting me. So we're just getting right to business. We we really just need to know if you're in the throes of like a terrible breakup, what are five things someone can do to move on and heal? And like we can't get the like you need to take a bath because like someone told us that and we're all wrapped up about it. We need, We need real things you can do. Okay, so let's jump in the first thing you need to do is understand that the pain you're in is actually a physiological withdrawal from love. So what I mean by that is we know through neuroscience studies, so when you fall in love, you become physically addicted to your partner, and it obtivates the same brain regions that you see in drugs, alcohol, gambling, different types of addiction. So when we go through a breakup and we can't communicate with our X and we can't get their physical affection and we don't spend time with them anymore, our body goes through withdrawals and our minds a grubbing itself up, looking for that next fix, that next hie. And that's why we stop our X on social media, we drive by their apartments, we can't get them off of our mind. So if you can reframe your breakup pain instead of it being the one that got away, turn it into this is just a physical process of how my body responds to falling out of love. That's cool. I actually a loss of words right now. Okay, So that's one way. What's what's our next is so of course that healthy boundaries because your brain and body needs time and space to fall out of love. So you have to go around and set healthy boundaries like removing them from social media, taking down old photos, taking their number out of your speed dial, basically removing any triggers. So people places things in your life that reminds you of your ex, and I know that back to you really hard if you might work together or you share kids together. But as much as possible, minimize, minimize different triggers in your environment. And how do you do that if you see your ex with maybe a new partner. So we have to also face reality that our partner is our X I should say, is going to be dating new people and that can be really hard. Um, which I think also ties into another tips is that like your your partner's inability to see your worth doesn't mean that you don't have any, so don't. Um. You should never have to convince or beg someone to see you with you or love you. So when you see them with a new partner, kind of said, you know what they weren't They weren't my person. And if you do the work and you know, I'm a breakup coach. I help people get from that place of I just lost the love of my life to thank God, I just dodged a bullet. So when you do the work, you're gonna be like, oh, good riddance, like that person can have them. Okay, I love that. Samantha makes sense. Alright us too. Now we're moving on to number three. Okodness, let's see put me on the spot. I think, um, you can do it. Avoid what I call the frank and boyfriend effect. So the frank and boyfriend is when you start digging again. So many people make the mistake of trying to find a new partner who has all of the qualities that you adored and cherished about your ex mixed with all of the things that they were lacking. And you're trying to create this mythical Frank and boyfriend of human being. And that just keeps these stuff looking backwards instead of really reopening your heart, um to someone knew who has different qualities and attributes and interests. Does that go the same as like, uh, I have a type, this is my type. I'm only looking for this type. Is that the same? And how do you get out of that pattern? So that's a million dollar question, I actually passed that and breaking up and advancing back that has more to do So, yes, we are attracted to certain physical types and features, but that has more to do with your attachment style. So when we talk about attachment style, what that is is your level of comfort with intimacy and closeness in a relationship. And what we see over and over again is typically if you're someone who really desperately wants of an affection, you also tend to be someone who maybe is afraid of being rejected, who's afraid that your partner is going to leave you. You might be afraid that they won't like the version of you once they get to know the real you. And we tend to attract people who they're issue is they are uncomfortable with closeness and intimacy and they tend to sabotage relationships by they're basically like the bad boy or the game players. So they have what's called an avoidant attachment style, and they don't like their freedom being encroached upon. So they basically, if you think of seximis city um Carry and Big were that perfect example of he was anxious, he was avoidant, and they went around and around it in these cycles. So when we talk about the type, it's really ultimately like, are we at passing people who are going to hurt us leave us, who aren't truly emotionally available? And we tend to repeat those comments until we feel some of our more longstanding childhood wounds or wounds from past relationships. Okay, so nine times out of ten it's something in your past that you just haven't worked through that's just drawing you to this person over and over and over again. Yes, And that person can come in different passages, right, They can look like different people, they can have different jobs that ultimately, like that core wound keeps getting tapped into over and over again. Okay, So what about in the form of a cheater and it's not someone you're dating, it's somebody you're married to, Um, how do you come to or you have kids even together, how do you come to terms with leaving that person? Or will they actually change? Or what is it in us that makes us want to stay? Yeah? So that's such an end up question, um that I always tell people when I work through with couples through infidelity, I say, there's no shame in leaving, and there's no shame in staying. And it's such an individualized descision, UM, like you that taking into account kids and history and finances, there's so much. But ultimately, UM, we need to be in a relationship that honor are worth. And usually when we have low self esteem or we don't think we're worthy of love and commitment UM, or you know, we have these past wounds that keep getting activated, we kind of start settling and we start putting up with less than we deserve. And then when I see people sticking it out too long in relationships, it's because they've invested time and energy and love and commitment and finances and they almost feel like it's a failure if they were to leave. And what I always emphasize is that there's no failures in relationships if you and and also for the longevity of which you're with someone, you don't get like an award if you're in an a miserable marriage for twenty years, UM, versus if you call it off with someone after a year, after a great relationship, that you ultimately realize they're not your person. Because we can love someone m that it doesn't mean that they our best match. So in the case of infidelity. I mean, of course, always go work with a professional to sort through it. One thing I see sometimes you know couples, I've worked with couples who come out stronger on the other side of enough their infidelity. But there has to be commitment to strengthening the relationship. There has to be remorse, there has to be accountability, um, and there has to be changed. So if your partner to be straying is not willing to put in the work, then you need to walk away um before you And that's even more emotional energy and time. And you also have to be able to look in the mirror and say, how have I potentially contributed to relationships to satisfaction That doesn't have to a part in their behavior right for cheating or straying. That you have to be able to look at yourself and say, where can I take responsibility for this? And then also just taking it a little bit to the side. A lot of what I've realized in my life and I've seen throughout is I've had either friends or maybe it's a brother or sister whom I have where it is that's in a bad relationship, you're watching it happen. They're kind of quiet about it. Every once in a while you'll get a piece of like this is happening. I want to get out of it. I don't know how What is your best way to be a supportive friend and help that person without them then closing off because sometimes I'm a little bit of a note it. Also, I like we'll over talk about like come on, you know, he's a total narcissist. He's not coming home at night. It's obvious what he's doing, you know, And that's not necessarily the most helpful way to be a friend. So how do you think you can help build your friend up? But also you're still in your lane. I know that that is such a delicate balance. Um So I think empathy is always is always an important like communication skill and just human still in general. So when your friend expressive concerns or you can see there in pain, first making an empathetic non just mental comments like I can see you're really hurt, or hey, I've noticed you seem really stress lately, look what's going on? Or you know, gosh, I would feel really upset to in that situation. So first just to get them to sausen by feeling empathy, and once they're feeling like hurt or understood, then maybe UM, I wouldn't necessarily give your opinion unless they're asked or you say, hey, do you want my thoughts on this? Or how can I support you? Um, And at the end of the day, you can, you know, plant little seeds like, hey, I noticed that you seem really unhappy or dissatisfied in your marriage lately. Are you okay? Or what's going on? Kind of asking the open ended questions so like they can take you where they want to go. But the worst thing ever is like if you point out something to them and they're not ready to hear it, they're just gonna get offensive and full away from you even though you're trying to point out what air partner is makes sense? What about the friend that just never stops talking about the breakup five years later, six years later, ten years later. So so you get them a copy of my book, you have them come into my coaching program, and they need to realize like that they need some serious help, because I've lot of people come to me who are in like just twenty or miserable marriages and they're like finally taking the process of getting divorced or they put their ex on the pedestal and they have these rose colored glasses and all of that is just so painful, like being stuck and ruminating and obsessing. And that's where I see people rated the moment most amount of times, and actually too they talk to that point. There's absolute stages of break up Greeks that we go through, similar to when we grieve a death of someone. So you know, if you've ever talked to a widow or something who's still breathing a death for a long time. We we get stuck in those same stages. So we go through shock and denial, anger, bargaining, and anxiety. So bargaining can make it work, making like promises that you'll go to therapy or that you'll team anxiety. I added anxiety into the stages of brief because I think that's where we do ruminate and obsess over this breakup and we kind of have difficulty letting go, and eventually they go through depression and finally acceptance. And the problem is it doesn't always go in a linear question, so we can bounce around from the stages, which is one day maybe we feel like we're finally getting over it, but then we bump into our ex with their new partner, and it kind of sends us back into those earlier stages of anger or depressions. Um, so it's gonna be ruling process to get over a breakup, and there's no set amount of time, and there's no set amount of time. I always say, like, you know, everyone grieves in a different way. But for me, it's like if you're not seeing them progressed through the stages and have more signs of acceptance. So to me, acceptance means you know, you might not be happy about the outcome of the relationship ended, that you're at a more contented place, you're at peace with what's happened, and you also have optimism about your own future dating life and reopening your heart. So they're just stuff more not anger and grief. Like that's what I would say. You know, it's more than a few weeks, is probably more than a few months even but by that year point, if they are making no effort to take care of themselves to let go their harboring anger, um, they're really depressed and having difficulty even like getting out of better going to work, where they're abusing drugs and alcohol. That's the time to say, hey, it sounds like maybe you could use some professional support. Yeah, that's true. And then my last question, I know that I'm keeping you longer than I should, but I have so many questions. What about when it comes to loneliness or the fear of loneliness. I feel like so many people don't end up breaking up or ending a bad relationship because they just don't want to be alone and they don't really have a network of friends or whatever because they've kept so far just inside of this dysfunctional relationship that they don't really have anyone left. Right. So there's this really interesting uh psychological research that found that when we don't know the outcome of like making a big change or taking a risk, if we can't guarantee ourselves that the outcome is going to be better, so we're in a grumpy, horrible relationship and we don't know for a fact that we're going to meet Prince Charming and live happily ever after, we actually don't make change and it's really hard. So that's why you see so many people stuck in these lousy, dead end relationships. Um and so loneliness it's kind of for them, it's going to be about learning to strengthen their sense of self and rediscover their identity. And so in a big breakup, we often feel really lost or even in a toxic relationship, we feel like we've lost ourselves. And so the breakup process from beginning to date again is all about rediscovering yourself, working towards goals and hobbies and interests like creating your own fulfilling life. That means making new friends, investing. I'm into yourself. Um, I think over time and an unhealthy relationship are like self esteem gets tripped away, and so we don't think we're worthy or deserving something better, or we don't even know how bad it's gotten. So when you do have the courage to end a relationship where you're not happy, then this whole time, this is kind of transitional time into getting ready to date again, is all about investing in yourself. So we know the common theme. You have to take care of yourself in order to move on from any relationship or feel your best, you have to invest in yourself. Self care. Self care so totally, and self care like that is an act of love and respect and value to yourself every day and so many people you know, especially in my industry with dating and break up, the term like self love gets tossed around, and I just like to debunce the myth like we don't love ourselves a hundred percent of a time every single day. It's the same way that you create how happiness? Will you create self love by doing these little acts of self care whether it is, um, you know, making new friends or going to the gym or eating healthy like whatever it is, that's respecting yourself, your body, your mind, meditating. Um, it's a it's a daily practice. So I just like to I think people think like, oh, I love myself today, so therefore I will love myself tomorrow. And that's a myth. It's like a daily intentional act. Well, I love it. I think I love myself today. You know what, I'm not writing it down right here? Uh no. Thank you so much, so many great tips for our listeners and you know, for even us, So we appreciate it. Thank you, thanks for having me. Bye good bye. So now we're back. And I originally was turned on to Catherine because a friend of mine has read your book and she is following all of the steps and so like the journal with what do I love to do what comes naturally to me. What do I feel passionate about? She was telling me about these things, and I was like, Okay, now I need to really dig into these breakups. We have so many questions. I figured, maybe first you could tell us a little bit about yourself and what led you to start on this. Well, who else would make it their life's mission to have healthy, happy love than someone who had a decades of unhealthy unhappy I mean, that's really where I started. I think, Um, you know, we have some most of us have some relational traumas in our youth, and that causes us difficulty as we get older. In my situation, I had my mother was pregnant at eighteen, and this is in the fifties, so you definitely got married if you were pregnant, and they had kind of a disaster us marriage, a disastrous divorce. You know, a lot of people, a lot of anger and hostility that kind of festered around for a lot of years. And uh, and so consequently I was kind of a poster child for unconscious uncoupling, for what happened in a nasty divorce to the kids that I really struggled. I had like addiction issues. I had self esteem issues. It was incredibly codependent. I had um insecure attachment. I was totally love avoidant. I wanted love. It was like the central drama of my life. But anybody who got too close, I pushed them away as quickly as I could, like I was just you know, kind of a messed up girl. And and that fortunately led me into therapy and into transformational work and into meditation and spiritual work. And I basically made it my full time job to work on myself for years. It was also a singer songwriter and and mostly a waitress for years while I did all this and um and then one foot in front of the other. I'm just somebody who kind of when I work it out, I like to share it with people, and somehow became a therapist in the process. It was a very organic process. And when I was in my early forties, after all of these kind of disastrous love relationships, where my main pattern was unavailable people because when I lost connection with my dad was because he went to his wife. So I always had like this married men thing because I was going to get the guy back, right, So I had, you know, any kind of impossible love I was in but when I was in my forties, I really was learning about transformation and metaphysical principles. And I created a miracle just by standing for a future that wasn't predictable and organ organizing like who would I need to be to fulfill in that future? And I ended up connecting with this beautiful man who I dated six years earlier, who I thought of for years is the one that got away in this very magical way. And we got married and had baby, my first baby, my only baby, at the age of forty three. And then I thought, well, I know a lot of other people are struggling and suffering, So what did I just do to create this? And that's what became then calling in the one seven Weeks to attract the love of your life. And then it went and I wrote a book about it and became a national bestseller, and I started teaching, and then I had thousands of students from all over the world, and I had this, you know, an online course, and I have a coach training and I'm known throughout the world for helping people to manifest a miracle, particularly those who had a really tough time and love. And then ten years in my husband and I got divorced. I had a little pr problem, think you're going there, so good, so so, but the saving graces, we did it really well because we both had come from families where the parents were divorced, and we both had had that parental alienation thing. I lost connection with my father, he lost connection with his mother. So we made a decision to just figure out what it looks like to be a happy post divorced family so that our daughter could have a happy childhood. And that's what we did, and that then became conscious uncoupling, which then Gwyneth Paltrow heard of and kicked into the lexicon. So in a perfect world, I think you do conscious uncoupling before calling in the one, so that you're free and clear and you're not bringing baggage into a relationship. But it's really good, I am. But then I when I was ready, after you know a few years after that, then I decided to recouple, and I recently called in the next one. So I'm very happily partner. Where are you, Frisen? It's absolutely amazing to me, Like I just called him in wait up, like I had, you know, six vodka SODA's night Dad's called him, right, Yeah, that was my call, my dating call. Um. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. So anyway, I and and of course I'm a psychotherapist now, so I mean the work is actually quite deep when you really stop to think, like how are we getting in our own way? It's quite deep and it's quite profound. And the reason I love to look at it like that is because I think we feel so powerless if we've had bit toxic patterns. Like you know, if you want to go get a medical degree, you kind of know I need to get these scores, I need to go to school for this many years, Like it's a pretty clear path. But if you want to say I want to create true love, and all you've ever had is kind of messed up love, and you come from this really screwed up fat background, and there's even maybe a normal kind of screwed up background, but you still have problems. You feel kind of hopeless about it. So the key to accessing powers to really take profound personal responsibility for how we are the source of our patterns. And it doesn't occur like that incurs like men are like this, women are like this, dating sites are like this. There's no good men in my city. There's no you know, it just it really likes a lot of reasons external to us. But if you really say, okay, you know, I'm the through line of all of the patterns, and so it's almost like you're taking accountability for anything that's happening with the accounability to coach yourself. That's right. It's internal accountability to live consistent according to the future you're standing for. So even if you've gotten into multiple bad relationships, instead of saying it's because he was a narcissist, he's a cheater or this and that, it's you taking in what it is that you've put out there and why you continue to attract these men. Yeah, And so I like to say, because especially in a breakup, like people are so filled with there's you know, and probably the other person did behave badly, you know, if you're filled with feeling of having been victimized. But I'd like to say, even if it's the other person's fault, the gold is in your three percent, because you have to be able to trust yourself to never do this again. So that kind of brings me to a question that you know, if you are in a pattern where you consistently going after a married man or a married woman, or you're okay being cheated on repeatedly. Are these things like, what are what are ways that you can stop that pattern? Well, a lot of us are doing our work. You know, we're looking backwards, which is good. You know what happened in my childhood, who did happen with, where did it happen? And we're all kind of steeped in that world. But I think the fastest track to change something that's been a habitual pattern that's given you pain is to start with the future. Right, So you actually say, look, I'm going to set an intention. And this is what I did when I was in my early forties. I was with a group of people were all like supporting each other to set intentions. One person doubled their income, another person bought a house for the first time. And I had just had like another crash and burn with some man I thought was available who wasn't, And so I was So I was in so much pain that I called up a friend and I said, Okay, I know this is crazy, but I'm gonna I'm gonna just set an intention to be engaged by my second birthday and that was eight months away, and I had no prospects where I have been living right one and I've been trying to find the one for like two decades by then. But she said something that really changed my life because she said, Catherine, I'm going to hold that intention with you if you give me permission to hold you accountable to being the woman you would need to be in order for that to happen, so all the changes you need to actually and it shifted my focus immediately. Like I said, I wasn't running out to find love. I really was going within. I was connecting with my intuition. I was taking personal responsibility, but not like a psychological issue. I think the key to all of transformation is getting out of victimization and taking personal responsibility. And sometimes when we do our work, we're looking backwards. We're kind of like, well, my mother did this to me and my brother did that, so we're kind of looking at it from a victimized perspective. So what we have to do is to say, yes, that happened, and what did I make it mean about me? And how have I been living out inside of that that worldview in a way that keeps perpetuating it. How am I showing up and relating to people in a way that's communicating that I'm not valuable, or that's communicating that I'm invisible and I'm somehow there needs matter more than mine, Like we have to actually see because when you can really see the specifics of how you're showing up in that way, that's keeping that story alive. That's when you get to make a different choice and you get to actually say no, I need to I need to let that go. Like maybe that was something I did when I was twelve, a decision I made, and then I've been trying to keep myself safe. Like I'm twelve and I have no skills, but I'm an adult woman now I know how to keep myself safe. I can learn some skills that I didn't have back then, and we take responsibility for like growing ourselves in a way that would allow health and happiness and love to finally happen for us. So I have a question though, I mean a lot of our listeners wrote in and said, you know, I've been married for you know, seven years. My husband's cheated on me two times. You know how many times do I forgive him or you know, my husband and I are great, but then sometimes I feel like maybe he is emotionally abusing me because of some of the words he says, and then I feel like I lash out, Like there's people in unhealthy marriages that don't really know when it's time to say goodbye. Well, a lot of people, by the way, who are in marriages and are committed to stay in marriages actually do the conscious uncoupling process that I created because there's there's some missing development that would allow the relationships to actually realize their potential for greater happiness. Can you explain that to me in an easier for example. So, for example, just to even know your own filters, right, So, if you have a if you have like a wounding in your past where you had like a narcissistic mother, let's say, so you always have this feeling like I'm not good enough and always have to prove myself. So you're and how you're showing up in the relationship is kind of you're always looking for approval, You're always looking for validation, or you're always doing something to try and earn the other person's love. And and any time they do something, let's say they do something horrible. They cheat. The filter you have is see I'm not good enough. That becomes evidence for that filter. So you're not actually dealing with it from an adult center. You're kind of this wounded eight year old again who's who's kind of now stuck with more evidence that somehow you're not good enough, and you know now you're compiling evidence. So I think what the conscious uncoupling process does, we're calling in the one. I mean, basically all of my work is to really unpack how we are showing up in a way that almost pulls on people to kind of validate the old story, and that when we're in that story, we're centered in that story emotionally because most of us tend to believe everything we feel. So if you're kind of triggered into that experience again, you're literally kind of showing up trying to repair from an eight year old center as opposed to a more adult center, which is very grounded in your value and may be very grounded in the value of your marriage, and so you might end up fighting for that marriage. But something is going to change in the dynamic between you and your partner, and you're and you can you can't change it from the eight year old, you can change it from the adults setting new boundaries and yes, but see, I like to work on a consciousness level first, because it's not behavioral what I'm talking about. It ends up out picturing on a behavioral level. But we all know, like you know, sometimes the communication skills class, you take all that stuff, or you learn how to speak with eye statements, and they still don't work, and you're still kind of left with the residue of, you know, being humiliated or mistreated in that relationship. You think that if somebody is in a situation where they're humiliating you or they're any of those types of things, that they can change. Yeah, and the only way it's going to change is if you see your role in it. And that's why I start with the person, not because I think the person is to quote unquote blame. Never can I give a weird example. This is just what came into my mind. So I have a guy friend, let's say, who we communicate differently. I need a lot of communication. He needs like minimal communication. But I'm really trying to say, like, hey, just hit me back if you're busy. So I know you're busy, and then I won't worry about it. So the other day I had sent a text and called and he hit back and said, can't talk. I'm really busy today. And my initial reaction was like yuck, like why is he writing that? And I was all kind of about it, and then I took a minute and realized, like, that's all about me. He's doing exactly what I sort of wanted him, and now it's landing on me weird because I feel like, oh, he's too busy for me, Like I just try to stood up again. So I took a beat and was like, oh, he's being cool. It's like we internalize everything. No matter what we do, you can't win. Well, you can if you wake yourself up, like we all have certain defaults. I've actually been unpacking for over a decade now what I call like the twenty one most salient core beliefs, and that becomes the filter. And here's the thing about core beliefs. If you have like an I'm alone, for example, inside of the energetic of that, which is i e. The emotions of that, like loneliness, you feel kind of separate from people. You feel like you're on the outside looking in that nobody really cares about you, that everyone's always going to leave you, so you have anxiety. Like you know, beliefs are not in the mind, they're actually in the body, like an emotional default place. So when you're centered there, what you might do when somebody disappoints you is kind of put up a wall and do a preemptive strike of just kind of energetically pushing them away. Totally. I've been having a conversation in my head for about two months now that has not happened, like in this attempt to prepare myself for what could happen, and I finally was like, I'm done with that, Like it's so dumb, it's so dumb. I love that you're so self aware. This is so cool because what you want to do well, but so so you're like in the middle of the breed canal, but you know you have this filter and that you're interpreting a certain way that almost sets people up and sets that situation up because if you energytic, I couldn't win because I was already yeah, that's it, right. So I finally said, like I'm not gonna like try and have this conversation in my head, all right, so let me give you a trick about it. Let me give you a trick when you notice that, and maybe it's an invisibility, Maybe it's an a loneness. Maybe it's a feeling of not being good enough. Maybe it's not feeling wanted by anyone. So you're always kind of anticipating people don't like you and they're going to reject you. You have to take a deep breath and ask yourself, how old am I here? It's a young, huge part of you. Something happened. It was either like an acute crisis or is what we call a developmental crisis where you never really got what you needed over period of time. But you have to then extend love to that part of you and say, sweetheart, let me tell you what's really true about this idea that you're not loved or you're not wanted or you're all alone. And then you start with you know, if it's I'm alone, you say, I'm right here with you. You're not alone, I'm here, I love you, we're together. Right, you're kind of befriending that wounded part of yourself. But then there's a whole different set of skills that you might not know. So your way of dealing with conflict is number one, to avoid it, because God forbid any conflict happened, because that's the beginning of the end if you have that cluster of beliefs. But you also might then put up a wall and push people away energetically, which gives them the signal they should leave now, which then fulfills on your you know, your worldview. Um, but what you need to do is learn like something that is maybe completely foreign too, which is when there's a breakdown, you pick up the phone, you say, Hey, I really care about our relationship matters to me. I'm noticing that I'm feeling kind of disconnected and a little out of the loop with you, and I wonder if we could talk about it, because I want to make sure that we're good. It's so interesting that you say that, because, um, I would say the hardest time and that I've had in my marriage was after I had my kids. We had, you know, two kids, and I remember this moment of feeling really alone and feeling like lost. You know, I I was no longer going to a job every day that was telling me I was doing a good job, or I was no longer you know, seeing the same type of you know, I did a competitive sport, was my job, so like a first place told me you did good, you know, a sixth place told me work harder, you know, whatever it was. And so after I had the kids, I really became silent, and then I would look to my husband to validate me when he got home and if he had a stressful day at work or if something was going on and he didn't have a certain reaction to something that I said, like the kids and I did babba, I would immediately go to this deep dark place of like, we're failing, this is terrible, this is the world, you know, whatever it is. And it wasn't until I like made a shift in myself and changed my life that had nothing to do with him that then I felt comfortable to even say to him like, hey, Ed, can you tell me if you've had like a bad day at work or something's happened, so I don't take it personally when you come home if you're a little quiet, And he was like, you took it personally, and I'd be like, yeah, like if I come if you come home and I'm asking you questions and you're kind of short with me, I assume you're mad at me, And he's like, what, why would you think that there would be nothing for me to be mad at you about? But it was all of this pressure I was putting on myself every single night that I would base my mood on whatever his mood us and how he was validating me. So it really became like but once I asked him, like that was such a simple like he was like, for sure, I can send you a text on the way home and be like great day, can't wait to see you. Or I can be like gnarly day. Should we just zone out and watch a movie? You know, like whatever, we all gets strong enough so that we don't make everything about us? Yeah, what is that? And also why the dark place? Like? Why do I always go negative? So if I'm making crap up, why can't I make a positive crap instead of like negative crap? Like he hates me, he's not gonna text me back, I suck? Why not just be like I'm hot, He's gonna text me back, and if he doesn't, it's because his loss is busy. Whatever? Why do I make up? Yeah? Well, I think I think that we default to an old place inside of us it's like a wounded identity. It's it's an untrue, false identity. And we're because we're you know, when we were children like two, three, four, Like, our whole job was to create a sense of who am I and what's possible between myself and other people, and we solidified that as the years went on because inside of making those decisions, we actually never learned certain ways of showing up that would give us evidence to the contrary. So an example is like, if you have a narcissistic mother, you might just, you know, just assume that nobody cares about your feelings and needs and that it's even dangerous to be seen because it could make someone angry. And so you never learn how to negotiate for your needs with anyone. You You just keep disappearing yourself. And do you think your past prior relationships kind of feed into it too, Like a lot of people ask me, you know, like why do I feel like when I when somebody breaks up with me, their lying about their reason? Like why do people need to lie about the reason? Like a lot of the time of a man's reason would be you know, I'm just not in this place yet, I'm really focusing on my career, I'm doing this or doing what we're like, nine times out of ten it's probably a lie and they're just not that into you. But what's the bother? Why not just say, like, listen, I think you're great, but like I'm not feeling a connection. Wouldn't that be easier for us all to process? Why why do people want to lie? Yeah? Well, um boy, that's a whole. That's a whole gnarly not, isn't it. I Mean, I think it's just polite what you're talking about. And frankly, I think if somebody has already chosen to leave, to tell the truth is to then open the door to further engagement. Right, So, in a way, they're kind of done with you. I mean that's where I came in, and Jim was talking like I was done. When I said goodbye, I was like done because and and probably I don't know how you said goodbye, and it sounds like a long relationship. So it's obviously more than you know. I'm into other things now. But um but I think that if people are done, they're done. If they've been processing individually or they've been trying to work it out the other person isn't meeting them. At some point they're ready to move on and then they just kind of want to tie it up with a bow and not do any more damage. And do you think if they're because after that breakup happens, and the person and that the other person tends to always want to have those additional calls because there's something else they think that needs to be said. Do you think those calls help? Do you think there's no? Not really, because because the impulse is to go from soul mate to soul hate, and like a positive bond to a negative bond. You know, nature has designed us to bond either way. Nature will take a negative bond over if you think, you know, hatred is not the opposite of love. Hatred is very engaged and high energy and a lot of investment, a lot of energy going into more energy. It's so much energy. I mean, indifference is actually the opposite of love. Swift, says Taylor. Which one what is it called, you guys, the one that says, uh, I forgot you existed. Ah, it's not love, it's not hate, it's just indifference. There you go. That's what we're talking to. The swift, I mean, sometimes conscious you know a lot of times when when people saw Gwyneth and Chris, they thought, oh, conscious uncoupling is staying really good friends with your former partner. It's not. It's about being empowered and free. So sometimes it's being to me, you're not talking to the other person. But there is a difference between times. Can you talk, Oh yeah, of course, and especially if you have children, you know, shared community and talk and communicate. I only communicate with my acts about our son, but I see other I have friends who are divorced who have kids, and there's no communication. There's a lot of screaming and name Colleen and the tax. They can't even taught. But he's he's a gate opener to my house, so that he's able to, you know, drop stuff off or pick stuff up or you know. It's very it's we're not friends but friendly. We're friendly. Well as saying as there's no festering resentment between you, because if there is unresolved resentment, the children do feel it, even when we're on the surface friendly. And I will say that part of why I wrote conscious un coupling is like, I'm a big advocate of marriage and long term relationships, but you know, people break up in relationships and when happily ever after he was created, the lifespan was less than forty years of age and nobody was mobile. So like you know that we live in a very different universe than when that was created. We need to up level, you know, how we're doing things. So there's a way consciously to separate. But you know, you have you have these child written and if if you are going back and forth and kind of shuffling between two different families, you're always asking your children to be in a state of loss because they're losing one family to join other family. So even if you're quote unquote friendly, that's why I mean in conscious uncoupling, we have this idea of expanded family. We expand our family. So and I still have a family with my former husband. I call him my husband, my husband denied and his his girlfriend and now my sweetheart, and we all spend holidays together. Still, you know, I'm not sure how long we'll do that because we just sent my kid to college, so we're kind of winding that stage down and now I'm free to go to Italy for the holidays or something. But but we really work to have one more you know, and look, I don't know. I'm almost like a hippie with it. Because my he had been married before and he has another daughter, and so they would come to her. I'm invited them to her home for the holidays so that our daughters could have a relationship with each other. And then at one point my daughter was six and she said, you know, can my sister's mother be my godmother? Because I want to have the same mother as my sister. So I said, okay, so I really see. But here's coming from divorced parents like I. Once they were divorced, I didn't really want that. So I'm confused, like because I knew that when I was with my dad, I was with my dad, and when I was with my mom, I was with my mom. If there was an event, and even if they were getting along, I felt unneeded pressure because I wanted to make sure everything was going to be good and smooth and blah blah blah. So I wonder, like, yes, but yes, it is such a great thing to be able to all be together and do that. But like, kids were smart and we can feel any little thing. But that's what I'd say, that's what conscious uncoupling actually clears the field. You're not. But don't you think you can. You think you're cleared and you're not cleared. I it's not just an instruction to clear the field, like I literally tell people what to do to complete and to clear it. It's no like room freaking out that you invented conscious uncomforting. I didn't like that until now, And like Gwyneth made that so famous that I actually was like googled who invented conscious uncomming? To make sure that you weren't wrong. I mean, so Gwynneth got that from you, She actually got it from Habib's today he who got it from me. That's how that happened. Habib was a fan of mine and he followed my work. He and his wife Dr Sammy, and they followed my work and they were fans. And then we are in the presence of greatness, which is why I really need to understand that. I feel like, if you believe in conscious uncoupling, then it isn't that weird that I'm friends with exs no praise, like, but I have a question, so and I still want to address what you said about your parents and regards to conscious uncompling. Is there a need to be friends with your exes if you don't have children together. No, that's what I'm saying. There's no, but it's just about being complete with them and not having baggage but angst so they don't like knowing there's someone in the world that I loved that I have like but not some kind of it. So I work it out. I just work right, but work out. Working it out and saying I'm okay with this person and still being friends with them are two totally different things in my opinion. So so so what is what is disturbing you about that? No, I'm saying, Okay, let's say that you were to get married tomorrow to somebody else and she's good friends with all of her exes, eating dinner together, like all of those things. To me, is that going to bother her her husband? I think it's slightly disrespectful to her new Well, we'll ask him. Like, but I'm saying if it were me and I was friends example, I was, I was married before. We didn't have a nasty breakup, we were friends. It was not a problem for edwyn Um. But then when my ex got with his new girlfriend now wife, she was like you know what, we could kind of that could be you know, nipped in the bud. You guys don't And you know what I was like, Yeah, you're probably right, because it is some sort of little crutch holding on to one another because of something you used to have. It doesn't mean you like that, that you are in love with that person anymore, but having that kind of connection with somebody that you used to either be married to or have sex with, to me, is a little touchy to the new partner. Yeah, which it could be, and you have to take that into account. So you all did the right thing because you honored her. However, I think conscious uncoupling is neutral on what one chooses to do. Conscious uncoupling is really about being free. It's about learning your lessons, going deeper, taking personal responsibility, graduating from oldt Because when I don't do it, all I do is just hold onto that. I'm just holding onto the relationship where I didn't consciously uncouple, and it just causes me pain or angst or I think I love them or in my brain I'm talking about it all the time. It's like, when I do it right, Yeah, it's free. You're free. You're just free. Of it, and then of course it's a choice and you have to and I think conscious uncoupling is always The other thing is that we honor the whole community. We don't honor just um. We don't honor just the two people who are breaking up in a conscious uncoupling because relationship, because relationships belong to the community, to the children, to the school, to the neighborhood, to the extended family, your cousins and your aunts, and you know, there's a lot of other people who have invested in that relationship. So it's about everyone being well and happy. And that would of course include a new partner and being respectful of what that person can handle and what they're needing. I guess what I'm struggling is I almost feel like it's unfair to go into a serious relationship with somebody else and be like, listen, you're also taking on my ex husband and we're gonna we have dinner every Wednesday night because that's our thing and we are you know, that's who are you cool with it? I mean, anybody's gonna be like, oh well. I think what needs to happen in that situation is that there needs to be an effort for the for the former, like if you would if she had, if she had reached out to me and said, what should I do, Catherine, I would have said, called Teddy and invite her to lunch. And you create your own relationship with and some people are cool with the world is small sometimes, like I date somebody that's friends with somebody I dated before, and I'm not going to make it weird. We're all friends. It's all good. My circle is a tad small. I have a question, what So when you got forced? Was it ten? It was ten years ago? Correct? When did I get divorced into? In this book? Conscious Uncompanying came out of that divorce. So did you test it on that divorce? I did? I did, and then you wrote about it. Yeah, and what happened after your divorce? You wrote, wrote the book after my divorce? Yeah, but it was your process, Well, it was my process informed by the many bad breakups I've had because I wasn't doubled over in pain, but I have had breakups were like half the hair on my head fell out because I was in so much grief, and I started smoking again and I didn't need for you, what do you do when you're in that much pain and that's what we needed. Another add on to that, what is the difference between heartbreak and depression? Yes, good question, Okay, which one do we want to go to? First? Start break? What do you do that survived that pain of heartbreak where I'm in the shower and I say to myself, this is excruciating. Well, look at depression is actually, if you look at the stages of grief, depression is um is a step down the road towards recovery from the initial angst of heartbreak. Because depression means you're kind of inching your way towards acceptance of this is WHAT'SO. And you feel depressed because you're not fighting it anymore. But you know, you have the five stages of greep. You have denial, this can't be happening. You have anger, how dary you know do this to me? You have bargaining maybe if I had, you know, maybe if I lose ten pounds, or maybe if I you know, do this or that, or let's go to counseling. You know, now we're in the bargaining, you start to get depressure, like, oh, this is really happening. And then in those moments what if you have the urge of like, maybe I should get back with him, Well, you probably will, and so what I do is I kind of unpack. In the book Counts Uncoupling, Eye unpack what's happening in our biology because love, you know, love withdrawal, it simulates drug withdrawal in our brains, in our bodies. Nature has hardwired us to stay connected. We are not born to break up. So that you know, uh lu Casalino. Dr lu Casalino will talk about how the brain is actually a social organ. So we regulate our body functions with each other, We regulate our emotions with each other. It's that phenomenon of when somebody is hurting you and they're they're they're breaking your heart there withdrawing and then and you're in so much pain, and then they call you and you hear their voice and your whole body comes down like finally right. But this is the person hurting you so so so we regulate each other. And so what happens in a breakup is we are deregulated. We are in a relational trauma, which is which Judith Herman from the Harvard Medical School will say is one of the worst traumas we can ever go through um and you know, the rejection that we're feeling maybe is simulating, uh, it's it's hitting all the pain centers in the brain, so the brain is experiencing it almost is physical pain. Lately, doctors have been prescribing aspirin for heartbreak because of this. So we're really out of cutwork. It's shown to I don't know what right had. This podcast is Stomach. This week's podcast by asprit I Love. Okay, okay, good, alright, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. But so this is the person who is like here, like being left, mostly because the person who's leaving has had time to build an identity outside the relationship is pretty acclimated. By the time they finally put their foot down, they've you know, they've, they've they're they're onto the next thing already. Internally, there's the person who's being left that's this traumatized. Even if they've been told over and over again, if this doesn't happen, I'm going to be leaving, they somehow didn't think it was going to happen. And so they're the ones that you know, this particular step one is for, and that is when you're kind of wildly out of control, and that's when you want to pour bleach on all his good suits and you want to like his car. I don't have that. So if you were to follow all these steps, you could do it in seven weeks. Well that now that's calling in the one. So there's two books, right, But then I have just uncoupling and calling in. How long does it take to conscious uncouple? It depends on the person. It depends on the situation. I mean, because like I have these friends that will break up, and I have been hearing about this breakup for three years or five years. And then you know, and you for a while, you're empathetic and you're like, listen, I feel you. I'm there, you know, and then you get to the point where you're like, if I hear Jonathan's name one more time, I'm gonna call Jonathan myself, have him changed his phone number, you know, Like Google did extensively, and it said there's lots of different ones, but one said eleven weeks, and I sort of settled in on that one. Eleven weeks. Felt like, okay, all right, I don't think so. I I mean, I'm I'm I'm in the camp like this could go on for years, you know, I mean my look, my mother has been divorced from her third husband for about thirty five years, and a couple of years ago he was still taking her to court saying she owed him more money. So if you family, if you are if you are the friend that has the friend that's been talking about the same breakup for multiple years, and you it's at this point, what is a good thing to do as a friend to that person? You would buy her the book and you'd say, look, you really need to complete this, Like how do we actually get complete when something has been that fair for somebody who can't buy the book, somebody that's listening right now, what is a good first step? Six bucks? I just ordered it while on Amazon right now, but can okay, can there you go? But but I actually have a whole free starter kit Unconscious Uncoupling dot Com Forward Slash starter kit. People can do that for free and I and I take people through the five steps, and I have audios and people can listen to the audios. But there's there's a process that people need to go through to really come out the other side of it wiser, stronger, more capable of loving. I feel sort of good listening to you. Do you have private practice? I do, although it's narrow because I'm mostly trained coaches, but really yeah, I have all go a whole body of coaches that I trained. So if somebody can't get over break up the same way, I'm just talking about three years. But what do you think is actually going on, is that there's too angry or well, so they might they might be creating a negative bond as a replacement for the positive bond that sets soul mate to soul hate phenomenon and um, as I said, nature hates you know, it is kind of structured so that we stay together and in in Nature's universe. Better a hate bond than no bond at all. So it's understanding the cost and the consequences of that. You know, resentment is as hard on the body as if we're smoking a half a pack of cigarettes a day. Studies show, I mean, there's all sorts of reasons. Certainly, if you have children, if you ever hope to be in another happy relationship, we don't want to be taking that baggage in um if you are you know, the if you have children and your and you're and you're in the process of separating. You want to start to to to do the work immediately because you're in the midst of trauma and crisis and every action you take, every choice you make, or creating consequences that you and your children are probably going to be living with for the rest of your lives, or at least for the next decade or so. Do you still believe in marriage? I do you do? Do you well? Because I believe the container of all in commitment is beautiful and healing and and um a container for growth. I think it's the highest and the best creates a lot of safety. What do you think about this one? I have a friend who said he's not getting divorced because his kids are begging him not to. They're eight or seven or five or something like that. It's like, ah, well, I think, so it's a new frame. You know what, We're going to design our family like this, I mean, truthfully and a conscious uncoupling in a way you still decide to stay a family so that the kids are saying no, don't, don't let me come from a broken home. I don't want my poem to be broken. And conscious uncoupling started from this inquiry, like, could you actually have a divorce where you don't break the family, where you expand the family, You accommodate the new relationship that the parents want to create, and you evolve the family into a different place. But a lot of the times these divorces are stemming from you're married to a narcissist or you're married to an ada. So how do you consciously uncouple from one of those? Right? That's beautiful, So I and ideal a lot with that. People come to me when they've had, you know, really a tremendous amount of pain from narcissist. So this is at N three analogy because usually that three percent is a pretty helpful piece to look at about how someone has been sourcing their value from giving, how they haven't presence to themselves, how they source safety from disappearing themselves and focusing another person. So what you say is this is your grand opportunity to graduate forever so that you really could actually be capable of creating relationship where somebody sees you, somebody hears you, you see them, there's mutuality, there's maturity, but you're still having to be with that person. But well, if you have children, Okay, so you have to be response. You know, we all have karma. We all make decisions, and those decisions generate things, and then we have to be responsible for the decisions we make. If you marry a narcissist, you probably saw some of the red flags and did it anyway, and there are consequences to that, so you know, you make the best of it. But one of the things I teach unconscious uncoupling also is how to de escalate someone's rage, because if you're breaking up from a narcissist, they're going to have a lot of rage. It's called narcissistic rage. Do you de escalate because I just do that. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, you're right. Well, so dumb, No, it's not dumb. You could probably do it even more effectively. But you have really good instincts. Saymy, you have really really good instincts. Um on, how to you know? If you have children, you want to be able to kind of salvage the good and build on that, So you might do something like, wow, I while you're really angry, you kind of mirror their feelings back to them, Wow, you're really angry. Can you tell me more about that? Because and then your generative I really want us to understand each other so that this doesn't happen again, and we can you know, we can do co parenting. They're almost feeding the little narcissistics apply in the narcissist. You feed the beast what you want, you kind of do and you do it sweetly, and you keep your eye on what's the most important. But the narcissist then they don't think it even more confused and then dig in even deeper like them. No, you can diffuse them. You can. They're they're pretty once you kind of catch it. They're they're a little easy to man. I feel like anyone dealing with all of this, you have to be so strong, well core, This is what I was going to say. What you do? You need to do the internal work to get them out of the power position, because if you've been with a narcissist, it means you've given your powerway to that person. So the first three steps of conscious uncoupling are all about you. They're not about going there and do this with them. You have to, you know, Number one, get a handle on your emotions. That's fine. Emotional freedom is the first step. Number two is reclaim your power and your life, and believe it or not, it's about taking responsibility for your three percent so that you start knowing the amends to make yourself so someone. For a narcissist, one of the mechanisms is, you know, I always gave in. I never presence to myself, and so the amends to self is you need to presence yourself everywhere with everyone you call. What about you tell your boss what you're really feeling? You tell your someone that's you know, uh, mentally abusing you. Well, again, I'm not letting them off the hook for their crappy behavior. But if somebody comes to me because they're suffering from the from the horror of going through that experience, the best thing, the best medicine I can tell I can give to them is how have you been lying to yourself to stay in this relationship? What parts of your knowing have you been cutting off and throwing under the bus to try and salvage something? He does feel better. Even if you stand up a little bit and you have to be like strong and you do it, and then you don't back down because I have that sort of weird thing like where I stand up for myself. We hang up and then it's like I need to call back. I need to call back, I need to go back in again and something, and then you go nope, I'm good. Yeah, wow, that's great. Well, well, well so we're talking so which it's almost like which self are you sourcing the relationship from? Are you going to source yourself from the I'm you know, not good enough self? You're going to be in that conversation from the I don't matter self? Or are you're going to be in the conversation from I matter my feelings and needs mighter than letter to me to others. That's so cool. My I am so different in my current relationship then I was in the seventeen year marriage because I over communicate. I don't want to say over communicate, but I'm a pretty calm person. I really don't raise my voice, but I am I'm forced. I had to force myself to communicate my needs or if something was bothering me or if something triggered me. And he appreciates that because he doesn't have to guess. The guests were taking out the guesswork has been a game changer in my because we all want to assume the worst. Well I do. I want to assume the worst. And I actually that's something I do with my kids now too, and it's really helped us because you know, when they were first born, they were my hundred percent. It was us all the time. And then things started changing where like I started developing all in, I created a big business. I have forty eight women that work with me. I went on a television show, like life really shifted. So I started kind of setting their expectations and being like, hey, guys, tomorrow is like a crazy work day for me. I don't want you to think that I'm not paying attention to you. I love you, I care about you. It's going to be crazy. But then guess what Friday, it's us you know. But just like then they're not acting out because they're not feeling like they're getting a certain level of attention, and you realize, wow, it really just that took two seconds and like really meant something, and then and me and then I took the guilt off me, and they feel secure. Yeah, they're like, oh we're good, We're good. But it's crazy that like why we avoid doing something that could make all of our lives easier. Yeah, the beautiful And on the same same topic, when when you are finally deciding to whether you know, unconscious, when you decided to consciously, when it consciously, how do you get over being so upset that it's over? Um, I think we've all had those moments. I know I have. And it's really about making meaning of the breakup in equal or greater measure than the pain you're in. So, for example, you're going to say, I can't believe I messed this relationship up or I lost the opportunity of this relationship, and I really get the cost of when I behave in this way, when I give my power away to somebody, I really get the cost of when I show up out of my insecurity or you know, whatever it is, and that will never happen again. That's just what you said. It will never happen again. From this moment forward, I will be a different woman and I will show up different. So you kind of have to make that level of dramatic meaning and I don't have. Uh, I can't parallel this with a breakup for me, But for me, I've always struggled, um with with waite and I would, you know, with past food things. And I used to tell myself for many years, this will never happen again, and then it would happen again. So right, I was thinking, I will never do this again until in the next until I do this next fad diet, and then I do this next binge, and then I do this next you know, whatever I'm doing to myself. You know, now I've created. The reason it's shifted is because I've created kind of like a tribe of people to help me continue myself accountable. But before that, I you know, i'd say never do it again, and then I'd be like, well, you know, I had a bad day, so I'm doing it again. Here we go. But I think what you're saying is the key. I think that we need to be together in these things. I don't think that any of us can change in isolation. And and you know, I'm a therapist, so I get to pick my professional part a little bit. That's one of the reasons I don't really just to private practice, even though I know that's very valuable, is because I love working with groups, because I think groups is where it's at. And uh, and now what I'm doing is something called the True You Awakening, and I have workshops and classes in the True You Awakening so that we can really challenge the old beliefs and the identity we've been living out of standing the deeper truth of who we are and start to show up like that. And you know, you know, in any in all areas, so food, food would be one of them. Health and body image and what's my identity and my body? So what did you think? This is just a total sidebar, but I've just had to ask, okay, when everybody was sort of like conscious uncoupling, like and it feels like it was on Saturday Night Live, Like did you like that? I think it was on Saturday Night Love. People send it to me and I actually loved it. No, no, no, I loved it. It was you know, it's one of those things because I just shared about how broken my upbringing was and how my parents you know, had animosity for years, and how messed up I was. To have gone to a place where I would create something because that would kind of go global and change the conversation. It was extraordinary. It was really extraordinary. It was almost like you know, it was almost like hitting a home run in the ball like went out of the park. It was. It was a really exhilarating thing. So even when people were doing it with humor and stuff, it didn't really bother me because there was an equal measure. People who were saying, oh, a new paradigm of of of divorce just got created, Like how we could do this differently? Just got six dollars from me, girls, So tell what you worried about that? And I just opened up the questions onto my Instagram and one of them that just came in that I thought was interesting is how do you get over someone when you truly believe they're the one. That's a really great question. So what I say about that is they are the one at that level of your development, and if that is so, then you better grow yourself healthier and stronger so that you literally outgrow that person. You become a better version of yourself. That makes sense. Wow, that's why you have to keep growing together if you get married you I try to just say the universe is going to sort this all out. Ah, that's sweet. Well maybe, but I don't know if it's helpful to that person because she wants the universe to sort it out the way she wants, right. But I feel like if the universe is going to sort it out, it'll all come back around. And that's where faith true. We were earlier, you had talked about that you were in a relationship, and then six years later that ended up being your husband. For those people that continue to go back to an X or something like that, how do you know if it's the right thing versus the wrong thing? Well, I mean in that situation, I was the one who was messing it up right because in my scenario, there was always somebody who was unavailable, and most of the time it was them, But this time it happened to be me, So it was actually very trustworthy and solid, and I just created a lot of drama. Um, but I think that that's an excellent question. And um, you know, you have to really know what it is you're standing for having. Now we're in calling in the one right, like what what are you really creating? And what are you standing for having? If somebody is telling you that they're different, that they're going to show up differently, you have to really get like you have to really ask them like what's different? What how do you see this different? And why is this different for you now? And then you give it time to see if indeed it is different. I like second chances, but you have to go in with your eyes open and don't have it be a yes, you know, yes, let's be together again. It's more like a period of time so that you maybe date them and date other people. Maybe you're not into deep Maybe you're getting to see them over time to see what's different, and you you rebuild trust. If trust disbin breach and another question that keeps coming up as you're with somebody, it's not a good situation, and then all of a sudden you threaten to leave, or you actually do, and now they're begging for you back. They're saying, I'm gonna change, I'm gonna go to therapy, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do anything just to be with you because I can't imagine my life without. They're telling you all the right things. Yeah what what then? Yeah? I mean, look, we're all we're all believers in change. We wouldn't have this conversation if we didn't believe that we were capable of positive change. But I like to get very specific with people, and you know, the for me. It's always about how much personal responsibilities to someone take and not. And personal responsibility isn't like, well, I am the way that I am because my dad was like that with my mom and I can't help. But that's not person. That might be some insight, but there's no personal responsibility. Personal responsibility might look like, yeah, I become a when I don't get what I want and it's been cruel and it's been unkind and I have no business treating anyone like that, and I promise you that I will no longer do that anymore, and I will actually I'm going to learn how to communicate my needs in a much more healthy way, and then there's action. So but in the times that somebody does say those things, or they don't say the right things, but they still are like, I want you back, I want you back, and then nine times out of ten they get you back, and then nothing really changes over time. What is the need in the person that's doing the begging to get you back? Is that just because loss or well that's what I'm talking about before that how we're hardwired to stay together. So so there's this even there's this thing in the brain that happens when we're rejected, where instead of like the sensible thing that the brain would kind of lessen investment in that person, what happens in the brains is that we're flooded with hormones that are similar to when we first fell in love. So it desire actually increases. So people do run after, people do hurl themselves at the person leaving, like that's just what the brain and the biology is making them do. So um, you know, when you're in that situation, when you're leaving, you know, you have to take responsibility for who you were being in the relationship that had it not work and look at your part of it and then you know, bring the course correct. Like you know, well, I've I've been a doormat and somehow I've been sourcing my self esteem from giving. And the truth is is that I get my value and I don't need to source my self esteem from giving overgiving anymore. And I'm not going to overfunction and have you underfunction. So you know, if if you want to to get me back, you need to really unpack this. You know, your your self absorption or you know, and it's so it's both. People actually would need to change. It's not just the other person. I just with me when you said that. But even though it's percent them, it's all about your three percent. And even if that three percent is just tolerating crap, stop tolerating craps. I mean, I can say this all in a year, you'll be back and I'll be dated a little unavailable. No, don't create that future. We're creating a new future, creating a new future for you, Amy. I love narcissus. Well, they are kind of fun. I mean, they are the life of the party, charming and handsome and sexy. And I think, I think when we when we really start to love ourselves in those places, in that three percent area, you you actually lose interest. Like people say to me, what's the healthy response to a narcissist, I say, disinterest. Oh my gosh. Well, leaving it on that positive note, thank you so much for coming and helping us today. Thank you so excited that My god, your epic this is you know, it's awesome. I just only had that book and started reading just the first part that tells your story, and I'm like, is this my biography? Well, we appreciate it. Thank you so much. You think you gotta give me a little backstory on your on my recent divorce. So I was married for almost uh seventeen I was married for seventeen years. What I thought You're going to say, seventeen months. Oh, no, seventeen years. I was very young, Um, and I continued to grow as a person, and UM, he sort of just stayed, you know, into he was still the twenty five year old, right, and I had own So I had known for a long time, and there were issues that we had through throughout the years. Um, and we never we were really connected for a couple of years. But after that, I just I kept growing. When you got when you started feeling that you were disconnecting with you guys continuing to work on it or you're just like out of sight, out of mind. So it's so crazy because I'm also a psychologist, So I used every tool I had in my toolbox over the years to try and help make him grow. I couldn't. I couldn't, you can't, you can't. He didn't want to. He was comfortable, and probably the more that you wanted him to, the more he dug his heels in. And it was just we just what I realized was that we were just fundamentally different people, how we walk through life, how we treated people, um our, philosophies, everything. There was the one time that I decided this was probably about fourteen years ago. I was working for a major daytime talk show and I had clocked in a hundred and eighteen hours that week. I had taken one shower. I hadn't I had been home for maybe three hours. I survived on diet, coking cigarettes. I lost twelve pounds that week. Best at on the planet. I got home that Friday, and uh, the first thing he said to me was, you know, if you don't make yourself more available to me, then I'm going to have to go outside of the marriage to you satisfy myself. And I was so tired that it was just like okay, And I went upstairs and went to sleep because I just I had nothing left. I was like, I hadn't eaten in seven days. I you know, I was filled with diet, coke and nicotine, and I had no sleep. And I was just like, all right, do it. I mean I didn't say do it, but I was just sort of like, I don't have time for this right now. If that's what you like is that what he did? Yeah, you know, I think, I think so I can. Also, that's when I knew. I knew, but I could not find my voice. I'm going to up. I mean, I'm going to admit a lot of stuff that at one point made me feel weak, but now it makes me feel really strong. So, um, you know, I can fast. I did not look at a bank account in seventeen years. Wow, I didn't even know the passwords. And you were the thing. You were the one bringing home the money he was bringing home. He worked in the medical field, so he was doing really well, but never never knew anything. So that was part of my fear of you know, like I'm going to have to like, oh my god, I don't even know how to how to do this. So it took me a long time to find my voice. And it's probably confusing since I have a seven year old with him, right, But I kept working at it because I kept thinking, I have to make this work. My mom and dad are divorced. There must be a way to make this work. I'm just going to continue, continue, continue. Every day is a new day, just you know. Um. And then about two years before I was pregnant, I was standing. We had just gotten home from a party, and I'm not the kind of person who snooped through phones, like I just don't do that. But his phone was charging on the counter and a text came in from one of the nurses that he worked with, and it said, Oh, don't worry, I'm not pregnant. And I was like, oh, okay. I was so disconnected though. It didn't even you didn't even cry in that moment, so I didn't say anything. You didn't know. And I stayed up all night going Okay, how do I get out of it? How do I just say leave, go go away? And I was still scared. I couldn't find my voice. So I just kept working and working and working and getting up every day and going out with friends. And we didn't really do anything to got there. I was going to say, were you at this point where you guys still going on dates, where you're still looking having sex, where you still like, no, m hm, you were roommates, right? So then cut two? I mean, it was it was so crazy by then. Now I'm what seven or eight, and we're at this huge party in mon Olympus pool party where there's a tiger and it was insane tiger in a cage pool party. It was crazy. Everybody drank way too much taila. We end up going home. I am up pregnant two weeks later. Wow, which is a gift, by the way, because my son is like my heart. Then I was just focused on that right, just focused on him having him. We get him home in my acts, did nothing to take care of him. Never, you know, never woke up once. Never. He even took three weeks fraternity leave, did nothing. I wasn't there to support you, wasn't there to support your son. Nothing. No. At one time I had had to C section and it was like we were home for three days and he was like I really need a job, and it was like you should really go get one. It was like because I have staples all the way across my stomach, like go away. Um. But you know, so it went on for three years that he did nothing, nothing, and I was working. I went back to work when he was five months old and had so you had somebody come in full time to help because nanny during the day, but she left by four and then it was me all night and um. Even on the weekends. He may have taken him to the Park three times in three years. He I do have to say he is a way better dad now because he has to be. So my son was about three and I was suffocating, like I was just like I was like, if I don't get out of here, I'm going to die. Oh. I was just I mean, I was dying, like I just couldn't breathe. I couldn't even stand. It got to the point that I couldn't even stand to hear his footprints. It was like it would just send me into I wouldn't say anything, but I would. I just had so much anxiety, like almost making a sec Yeah. I would feel physically ill. And one of my friends. I only told one person, and this friend kept saying, I just have to keep practicing with you, like you need to say, hey, can you pass the sugar? I want to divorce, And I was like I I can't, Like I can't. It was always something it was like, oh no, it's his birthday. Oh no, it's our anniversary. Oh no, it's Thanksgiving. Oh no, it's Christmas. Now, it's New Year's now, it's Valentine's. I mean it was always Now my sister is getting married, so I don't want to steal the thunder, you know, I mean it was always something. So finally, it's like a week after Valentine's Rocco was about three and a half and I just I couldn't take it one more second. And I think it was a work night too. I just said, I was like, so, uh, I'm totally done. I'm out and we can go to therapy. I'm happy to I had already called a psychologist and I had told her what was going on over the phone, and I was like, therapist, a therapist, you know, I've you know, I was telling her the story and I would and I said, I would like for us to come in and so, you know, we can talk to you. He agreed to do that. By the end of that session, she looked at him and she said, you you guys are on such different planes. You know, it's um that you have to go see somebody for a while, and you know, and I'll continue to work with Jen, but she's done a lot of her work over the years. And so I was like, all right, here we go the waiting game, and then we um. So he kept going, kept going, kept going, and then why are you going? He was going, But then about two months into it. I mean, I had made up my mind. I was out. Two months into it. He comes home and he says, you know, you need to come to therapy with me next time because I can't figure it out and you need to figure it out for me. And I was like, no, I'm not doing your work for you. I said, this is why it won't work, this is why we can't like I can't. I didn't want my you know, I told him I don't want my son growing up thinking that this is the way a relationship is. No communication, you know, nobody you know, loving or talking or going out to eat and having conversation. Um, it was just I just didn't want it. Why do you think he didn't leave? Because so complacent and I was easy. You never he would say, I want to go to Vegas with all the guys, All right, go? And did you say that because you didn't want to put up a fighter? You just didn't care. I just didn't care. So then that was it. You know. We went to the therapy. It wasn't working, and he left for ten months and went to a different state and came back twice, and then he moved back here. And while we were going through all of the legal we went to a mediator and the deal was, he pays nothing at all. I do everything, so he pays no child's part. He pays nothing, doesn't even buy he buys nothing for him. I buy him out of the house. And he agreed to all that. And then at the very end he said, he looked at the mediator and he said, I want my last name back. I think you've been like dying to keep it. Oh well, you're entire, but your entire entire entertainment career. I didn't even think about that portion of it because normally that it doesn't play into it. He just wanted to stick it to you every single way he could. Yes, So we have so many mutual friends from a different state, and he has completely poisoned a lot of them because he tells them, oh my gosh, I pay for all the camps. I pay her child's part. She doesn't let me see him. You know. He takes them every Wednesday, every other weekend, um, whenever he wants. Really, but he doesn't ask for any more than that. But he he got off like Scott free nothing. So I do everything, even if he's going to be late on one of the nights that he has him, I still have to pay the nanny, right. Well, I mean this goes back to even what we were talking about last week when it comes to narcissism and when you are married to a narcissist and you have children with one, it's really just parenting with an elephant on your back. Absolutely, that's that's what she said. That's exactly my experience. And he is a narcissist. I mean, everything you're describing to me, I'm like, wow, I mean, but now I need to know is it his last name or your last name that you currently have? It's his? You got that, you got it, got it. That's one thing I thought, we still got a chance. I got the last name. I was like, I just need to know. And so now I'm dating. And how long ago was the divorce? We separated almost four years ago and the divorce was final a year ago. It took a long time. And even still talking about I can see that, like it's still hard to talk about it is. But I have to say, the second he walked out the tour, oh my god, I felt free everything. I was a totally different person I was. I was back to being me. Yeah, so many years of just doing what you felt like you had to do because I felt so trapped. So not only that, but I had to learn how to do everything. I had to log into the bank account. So do you think because you've been through so much pain during the relation and ship that the breakup was less painful? It wasn't painful at all because you were done. I was so done that as soon as I got the words out, I mean I had already grieved at all. I really had. You've been grieving for seventeen years. Yeah, it was a long breakup. It took you that long to get there. But that's a long time. Pass the sugar I wanted to lure. It seems like a good play. I need to meet that friend. Well, not bad, I know. And we learned today you have to know your worth and not be afraid to set at the table and eat dinner alone. And I've googled like how to get over a breakup like maybe like two times, and I just am so sick of like love yourself. But we learned like steps that you can take. Right. She had some good stuff also that it's like a drug withdrawal, So it's like you got to give it a minute. You have to remember that that feeling isn't that you need to be back with that person. That feeling is actually you're going through withdrawal, right, And when you think about it like that, it's like it is, isn't it so sorry telling me it's time to bring up I liked it. I still can't believe the conscious unkind here. And we didn't know that. We didn't even know when she said it. And I was about to be like, you know, saying a teddy type comment. I was like, a good thing. I didn't. Sometimes you listen to your guts her she still believed a marriage because I wanted to ask her so badly. It's Gwyneth and the new husband have moved into a house yet, because they did. Yeah, okay, I don't know how I missed that. I think because I'm so stuck on them living in separate houses for a year that they lived together. Now. God, I respect Gwynneth. I love every weird thing she does so much, like the fact that she's just like, I don't care, I'm gonna live in two separate houses. I think that could work. Apparently work, but apparent in the end, they ended up moving in together. They wanted to give the kids sometimes and I'm not making this up. I saw a given interview. I'm like, are you and are you and Gwyneth close? Um? I wish if I could be best friends with her, I'd be stoked. I want to be best friends with Gwyneth Paldrow. Can't get me on goop Her Garner. I think that chick is awesome to want is um and Drew Barrymore's one, I think I think they could be buffs and then I'd worship my Oprah. But whatever. Um. People should email us Teddy, because next week we're going to talk about infertility, getting pregnant later in life, getting pregnant on your own, like sperm donor um, all kinds of carriages, not having kids at all, like all the topics that surround women, and and honestly spent so many years of my life struggling with and I can't imagine talking not talking about this topic because so many of us struggle alone with it. That please, any questions you have, I am going to be an open book. I'm also going to bring in professionals that can help us understand and also help us get through it. Email us at Teddy t at I heeart radio dot com, or hit Teddy up on our Instagram. Thank you, I don't Thanks for listening. Subscribe a C. T. Pot on Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcasts.