Two Jersey Js with Jackie Goldschneider and Jennifer FesslerTwo Ts Presents: Two Jersey Js: Til Death Do Us Part?
What are the main issues that tear a marriage apart?
Who cheats more, men or women? The answer may surprise you.
Plus, Jen shares how infidelity changed her marriage.
Hi guys, Hi everyone. I'm Jen Fessler, I'm Jackie Goldschneider.
And together we are two Jersey Jays and here we are. How you doing there, jack I'm good. Everything is good. It's beautiful out. It is beautiful out.
Finally, finally spring has sprung and everything's good. No complaints. Kids are healthy. Aiden's walking again. You know, he broke his knee. He's on the night we were at Madonna horrible. He is almost fully back and we're just getting ready.
We're going to Europe.
Nice, very nice, very excited and just happy to be here recording another pod with my best Yeah.
So we Jackie and I. When we were going over what to talk about for this episode. This past week, we had the pleasure of going to a live podcast. Uh. TJ Holmes and Amy Roeboch did their first live podcast after I don't know what to call it, a scandal types well, it was really a scandalal type situation, but it was if you guys don't know, it was very scandalous, and so if you don't know, Amy and TJ were hosts on Good Morning America for hours, yes not just the third hour. Amy hosted throughout and TJ was also like the sports oh okay, right, reporter throughout and he did a lot of like filling in, so so I mean, like you know, I would think like one of the most coveted broadcasting positions that one could have, right, They are big deals, and they had an affair, although they yeah, they get very upset with that. They call it a relationship, not just that, but they there were reasons they didn't call it an affair. TJ was already I guess, had already been separated from his life.
I mean, they said that they were not in good relationships. They were in relationships that were crumbling at the time that they started their relationship.
So they didn't really talk about their previous marriages, but they talked a lot about shame. They talked a lot about scandal, about getting fired. I mean, the news, the paparazzi reported on it, and like days later they were both fired from these really really high profile jobs and what it was like and you know, sort of trying to figure out they didn't even want to leave the house, but where to go from there. So they were really really honest and I love them both. And it's funny because we posted about this and I got some comments and some DM saying you had a great night with Amy and tj oh you enjoy spending time with cheaters, or because I think I said something to the effect of, like, you know, I admire them, and so I got some blowback for that, which kind of pisses me off in the sense that you know, all of these high standards that everybody is so perfect, everybody more perfect, right, And listen, I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes, and they actually talked about that. Their worst mistake was probably keeping it a secret for so long that they should have taken control of the narrative. But anyway, listen, you're also talking about a situation that I've you know, participated in terms of infidelity, and my husband and I have both experienced it, and shit happens and nobody gets away without either, you know, being the culprit. I'm not saying just a cheating, just there was so much judgment around what I had posted.
Yeah, so the thing that got me and I love the podcast and I love listening to them, and I find them both to be warm and adorable and very in love with each other. But what I wish that they touched on just for a second, was what happened?
What was happening in their relationships at the time, right, you.
Know, because then you're left to one or what I found myself wondering And I'm not second guessing them. I don't know them, you know, but like, was the other person blindsided?
Did they know how unhappy? Well you in TJ's I know, in Tech's case, he had already moved out. I know. You know, Amy talked about a photo that she had taken in Greece and that it was just felt like such a lie. We don't know. And again they probably were being respectful of their you know, ex or soon to be ex spouses. It was a podcast, It wasn't a discussion with, you know, a therapist.
But what I was left with was wondering, like, well, what happened what happens in your old marriage?
Like to get to that point, to get to that.
Point where you I remember one thing they said was and because they had been friends for quite a while, and then they said that like one day, like a look just turns into a gaze, and like what happens to get you to that point where the friend with a friendship crosses over?
Right, you know, and then the affair starts and what happens in the marriage that you're even open to it, which is what.
Is happening at home that you're open to it. So today we want to talk to an expert. Yees, we'll tell you.
Who she is about what goes on.
In a marriage that can get you to that breaking point and what can you do about it so that you don't get there.
Not just not just in terms of like having an affair, but you know, the disintegration of marriage and how to get back from a place you know that's that's really bad and maybe you know, get your marriage back on track or not, when do you call it quits? So you guys, today we have a very very special guest. It's someone that I know pretty well. I've known this person for years. She is a therapist. She has been in the business for what thirty years. She was the executive director of rehabilitation centers in Florida. She worked a lot, has worked a lot with addiction. She is currently running a practice here in Northern Jersey and she is beyond booked and there's a lot of focus for her right now on marriage counseling. I know all of this about her because I've known her for fifty four years, since she is my sister. Hi Robbie, Hi Ram introducing Robin Gutterman. You guys, we're so excited to have you.
Here because I know that you know all about this topic that we are going to discuss what causes the end of a marriage, because you tell her.
Well, you know we have been We've discussed before you hopped on, Robin that Jackie and I recently attended a live podcast with TJ Holmes and Amy Robock. I don't know if you know them. I think we've discussed it, but anyway, so the two of them, they had an affair. They were fired from Good Morning America like two days after the word was out. It was a huge scandal, and they recently, for the first time sort of shared the story. What they really didn't do is talk too much about their previous marriages. They didn't talk at all. Yeah, yeah, they really were more focused on the shame that came from the scandal, about how the affairs started, how they became best friends. They both know TJ struggled with a lot of depression in terms of the job he was doing. So Jackie and I have just you know, been talking a lot about them, and you know, a lot of our listeners, I am pretty sure, struggle with these issues. And even if it's not marriage, it could be long term relationships. I know that. You actually just attended a conference in Orlando, right, I.
Did a Marriage and Family Center conference from a really brilliant guy who is one of the top like gurus of marriage, of marriage and family counseling.
So I mean, you.
Take you take it people like Amy and TJ who seem very together, they have their shit together, their beautiful, loving, warm and you wonder what could have gone so wrong in their previous relationships.
That yeah, right, yeah, well, I mean they the affair the way they've represented it, and again they didn't really talk too much about previous marriages, but it was sort of more about the way that they fell in love. So we're but for our purposes, you know, I would love to talk about what is happening in the marriage and how does a marriage disintegrate, And I'm sure there's all different ways, but to the point where an affair happens, a divorce happens, how do you robin get people back on track? Can you always get people back on track. So one of the biggest issues. Yeah, let's start at the start. What's the what's the number one thing that tears people apart?
Communication, I would say, or an inability to manage conflict at.
House of what I say, is that something because we're you know, as you know rob our podcast, we're focused on women of a certain age, not necessarily newlyweds. But still, I don't know, maybe these problems run, you know, in terms of they run with newlyweds and then people have been married for years and years. But right, tell us, like, what is I guess communication is sort of the most common issue. Does that happen at the beginning of a marriage? Does the marriage disintegrate our kids the reason? Yeah?
Does that mean you just don't talk or you don't know how to resolve your issues?
I mean yeah, I think there are a lot of things that end up being the struggle for people in marriage. One of them, I mean, things do change after you have children, for sure, that becomes a big piece. Finances intimacy or lack of intimacy emotionallyhysically, sexually over time, especially in older women, I think that starts to decrease over time from what I'm seeing a lot of But you know, the things that people really focus on are the things that keep.
The marriage together.
And there are three things, right, So it starts with friendship being allies and partners in a relationship, putting each other first, making each other a priority above anyone and everything else is even the kids, even the kids, without a doubt, the marriage comes before the children.
Robbie, what does that look like on like in a practical can you give us like an example of that, like a practical example when for people that are dealing with the juggling the kids and the marriage.
Yeah, I think it's you know, on a daily basis, we talk about you're either turning towards or turning away from your partner.
And everything that you do on a daily basis.
So for example, you're sitting at the table, right and you're with your partner and one if you picks up the phone and is reading your text messages, that would be considered a turnway. Right, you're having a conversation, you're not giving eye contact, that would be a turnarway. One text the other throughout the day, the other one doesn't answer, that would be considered a turn away. There's many things that we do on a daily basis that we're either nurturing our relationship or we're doing things that set it up. Little things all the time, all throughout the day that's set it up for resentment over time, and it's things that we don't think about and we don't catch. But if the marriage isn't where it needs to be and it's not the priority, then everything that comes underneath that umbrella becomes an issue.
But don't you have to prioritize your kids. They're needy, they need you.
It's not that your children aren't a priority. Of course, your children are priority, but they're not the biggest priority. I like to say, shit runs downhill. So if the marriage relationship is strong, there's friendship, there's support, there's affection, there's love, there's togetherness, there's unity and parenting all of those things or what you're role modeling for your children. Right, So if that's what we're focusing on a lot a lot of the time, is making sure that relationship is the most healthy, then what your kids begin to see is what does it look like, right? What does it look like when we have a fight as partners, Well, it looks like we scream maybe, and we resolve it and our kids get to see how we deal with life, even though it's not perfect, how we deal with it together.
Right, So you're not saying like, if your kids have something they need to be at, like you choose a date night instead.
That's not what you're saying.
Okay, No, absolutely not. I'm just saying that the way that you connect in your relationship needs to be the priority over anything and everything else in your life.
I love otherwise other therewise there's holes over time.
Yeah, you said there were three things, and the first thing is friendship, which I love, which only in the sense that you know this is old news ready, but Jeff and I have had after twenty five years in April, we've certainly had our ups and our downs and separated for a year and a half, and there were infidelities, and there have been lots there's lots of stuff, right that's packed into that twenty five years. The thing that I can say now is that and that I cherish the most is the friendship is the and I think you said like that feeling of I don't know how you said it, but but we're such a team. All the other stuff and I don't know what comes after the friendship, but to me, that's for me, that's the most important part of my relationship. That's the part that I really treasure the most.
Yeah, it's being allies, being partners, making sure the other person knows on a daily basis that they're meaningful, that they're important, that they're a priority, right in the little ways, not in grand gestures, just in the little things that we do that let the other person know that we're leaning towards them, you know, throughout the day.
What was the next thing?
So the next thing is managing conflict hence communication, learning how to fight fairly.
Right.
I think we don't know how to listen to each other. I think we hear each other, but we don't know how to actively listen. And that's a skill, right, learning how to talk to someone so they can hear you.
Okay, But when you get in a fight and it's heated a lot of Evan and I get along great, but there are times when we just have to walk away from each other.
Mm hmm.
So what do you do in those kinds of circumstances?
I mean, I think it's it's learning how to do things that are going to promote healthy you know, healthy fighting and healthy communication. So the way that you talk to somebody you never you know, the way the.
Choice of words that you use are a big thing.
We don't think that they are, but all day, every day, the choices that we use make people defensive.
Give us an example.
Yeah, so if you want to say something along the lines of why didn't you take out the garbage? You never take it out. I always have to do it, and you're sitting in my office, I would say to you, Yeah.
No, that's not a good way to start, right.
Using a sentence that starts with you is going to be me talking about somebody else's behavior and a negative capacity.
You is the worst word on the planet to ever use.
Instead, I'm going to say, you know, it's upsetting for me when I feel like, you know, we both walk by the garbage and it seems like I'm the only one that's taking it out, and when that happens, I feel frustrated, right as opposed to why don't you ever do it? You never take it out? It's so annoying. Yeah, very different way of dealing. So it's the way that you're speaking, right that helps a conversation and it's also, as you said, Jackie, taking those moments where one person becomes flooded emotionally in a fight, which means emotionally and physically at their fill. Right, So if the other person says one more thing to me, I'm going to cut runneth over, I'm going to lose my mind. Right, I'm gonna scream, I'm gonna walk away, I'm going to do whatever they're is. So it's important when one person is flooded emotionally to be able to say, hey, I'm at my fill. How about we take a twenty minute break and go in the other room and calm down, and I say, read a magazine because that's the best way to get your body chemistry back down to normals. To read some piece of crap that means.
Nothing online or does it have to be like us Weekly? Did it be anything?
It can be anything, but it can't be from a phone. It needs to be something that you can pick up.
Interesting.
Yeah, And it's the number one intervention for emotionally de escalating.
You.
Wow, so interesting. I got to buy in the other room. Yeah.
You go in the other room for twenty minutes and then you come back together and you try to start again with an ice statement instead of a youth statement, which will immediately begin to change just how the tone is of the conversation.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. What is the third thing? So we've got friendship and communications.
Conflict, managing conflict.
Yeah, and the most important one to me after friendship, well, all of them are important is shared meaning?
What is that?
So as a couple, it's how do you dump yourself into somebody else's subjective reality. So the things that are important to them, their hopes, their dreams, their wishes, they're the things that make them.
Who they are.
How do you put yourself in that so you can create shared meaning together. An example would be one of my clients was talking about how she wanted to climb on Mount Everest and the husband and was scared of heights. So she's like, well, I've been wanting to do this my bucket list, it's my dream. So he's petrified, but he made a decision to go with her to do this as scared as he was, and he did the best he could and then stopped.
They went with a guide.
And she climbed up higher, so they oienced it something that was her dream together and created shared meaning.
And I think.
That's the biggest The things that you do on a daily basis, the rituals, right, even little things like my husband brings me coffee Jeff for you too every morning. What are the things that the two of you can jump into in each other subjective reality meaning the dreams, the hope, the wishes, the things that are important and become part of it.
So funny the growth and sake of the relationship.
I don't ever ask Jeff what are your Well, that's not true. I probably do, and he doesn't answer because he's like, I'm working, but when whenever, But he's like, like, what do you want? Like moving forward? Like what are your We want to do different things when we travel, so I personally know and so does See. We push because, for instance, Jeff could spend all day long. We're about to go to Vietnam. He's going to want to tour every historical site, and I more want to see the people in the I mean he wants to We want to do both, but like I will, I will push myself. I don't always, you know, want to see want to go to every museum or want to go to every monument and that's important him. Sometimes don't. I probably don't push hard enough. But I feel like that's what you're saying, like to actually, you know, and I and I'm trying to think of like do you have anything real life?
Well, I just wanted to ask so, But it's not always an instance like it would be okay if that husband said, you know, I'm really scared, I don't want to do this.
I'm like, I hope that you have fun on your own, Like is that okay?
Because there's oftentimes where things that I want to do that Evan is just so uninterested in, and I say, it's okay, I'll go do it, I'll grab a girlfriend, I'll do it, and like we'll do something else together.
Is that okay to still?
I mean, I think I think that it's okay.
I think that you know, we have to compromise and pick and shoes. We can't always just do the things that we want to do. Sometimes we have to jump into somebody else's love or interest because we love them and more not about it being about them, but us trying to understand who they are right as humans, Like what is it about this that's so exciting for you? It's like Jennifer learning football right her husband loves football. Finally making a decision to say, all right, I've been sitting on the couch with be bored on my phone for the last twenty years, Right, what can I do? What can I do different? Well, huh, maybe someone can teach me about football. I might not like it as much as Jeff Bessler, but now I actually might be able to say, you know what a down is, you know, and I might be able to have a conversation about a certain correct, there are things things like that, right, So not even all the way sharing what we can share to become part of the other person's dream and subjective reality, the things that are important as part of their truth.
So people, you know, a couple walks through the door and launching it to this at the point that they're at may not help. Like they're in the midst of you know, one of them has had an affair, they've been discovered, there's no intimacy left. How do you guide people that have grown so far apart? Yeah, like don't you? Oh?
Like so one part of me is like, of course you try to save any way that you can.
But the other part is like you live once life is sure.
You owe it to yourself to be with a partner who really makes you happy.
Where's the line?
Yeah, okay.
So I think that when people come in, there's two things that I try to really teach them. One is, are you here unconditionally meaning we got married for better or for worse, come what may, and no mat matter what happens, that's.
Our goal to figure it out.
Or I married you and it's conditional, meaning that if I'd a part in my life where I'm different, I've grown out of it, I'm unsure.
Then I need to figure out, you know, kind of where I am.
So if two people come in and they're both unconditional, great, they're both conditional I can still work with because it means there's hope there. If one's unconditional and one's conditional, I tell them they need to go home and have a conversation.
So like, what do you mean? So like if they both come in and one says, no, matter what you do, asshole, I'm sticking by you. I want to stay married to you, and I want this, you know, until the end of time, and the other says, well, I don't really feel it, and if things don't change, I'm out. That's when you know it's over. Is that what you're saying that?
And then the other thing is if I say to one one of the clients, tell me something good about your significant other, tell me something good. If you can't tell me anything good about your significant other, then you need to go home and have a conversation, because that means we're at the time where there's just contempt. And if we're at a place of contempt, then we really need to reevaluate.
And you can't help at that point.
If someone says to me that if they can't find something good about their partner, then I'm not one of those people that's going to try to create something where there's nothing left.
Okay, so other therapist, cool.
Here's a question. If you have all of those things, you have what seems to you to be a great marriage, the friendship, the intimacy, all of it communication, Is it possible that one person just falls for someone else? Can that still happen even with everything?
Yeah?
I think, Look, it depends on how much we're nurturing the relationship.
Right.
We can have a good relationship just day in day out and we're just not fighting, and we would just have you know we have a good marriage. There's another part, are we nurturing it or are we not and nurturing it is more about the things that I'm talking about with the shared meaning. People do end up having affairs for many different reasons, which also makes a couples count think very difficult. Right, So there's two things that make it difficult, and an abusive relationship and an affair.
Those are the two things that are very very difficult to do with well.
In abusive relationship, I would never advocate anybody going back to but an affair, and I think Jen and I sit very differently on this because I have no experience with it.
But can you ever.
Fully get the trust back? Like do you fully fully trust your partner?
Listen, I don't know. I can't answer that in a global sense. Do I trust Jeffessler one hundred percent? Yes, I do? And more than that, Like it's so I don't even think about it. It's just the last thing on my mind, you know, I don't. It's not like I'm maybe back in the day it happened. The infidelities both of ours have been so long ago, and I guess for years afterwards, I was, you know, suspicious looking at the phone or questioning, and I just know I don't ever even think about it.
I don't, but I think what Jackie said, I think there are people that can't let it go for sure. So you know, in counseling, I'll take a look at I'll have an individual session. If there was an affair and the person who had the affair, I'm going to ask them straight out if you need to tell the truth right there cannot be any more secrets end of it. So if you're not willing to tell the truth to the partner, I mean to your partner, to me and to the partner, but I meet it individually, so this person, you know, the partner will know where I stand on this, that the truth has to happen and the secrets have to be finished, and that the things that are discussed in terms of an affair are discussed. Everything that that the person who was this was done to, Everything is asked except the specifics of what happened in the bedroom. We all know what happens in the bedroom, right, We don't need to have a conversation in therapy about what happens in the bedroom. We know out side of that that person engaged in this behavior and the person who has been devastated deserves The answer is without secrets.
So is it a different counseling session if there was an emotional attachment versus just more about the sex.
No, I think it's the same thing in terms of what in terms of being the truth?
Right, what's the truth?
We're not going to have secrets in our marriage and it's going to continue to come up over time, right until there is trust that's built back, and trust is built back by acting remorsefully and understanding what the other person needs. And remorse is an action. It's not something we say, it's something we do and how we behave.
Am I an enigma? Rob? Do you think, like how many of the people that you counsel that where there's infidelity, how many of them do make the marriage last and you know, fix it?
I mean I don't really have you know, a percentage. It's really about what's reported and who continue used to come back.
You're not because Jennifer Aiden's marriage is fine? No, I don't mean. The only one I'm just saying is it rare? Is it really rare to be able to come back from infidelity? I mean, I can say, like, I have a lot a lot of friends who are divorced and who have you know been either you know, the cheaer or the one that was cheated on, and so it's I don't see that much although maybe nobody, not a lot of people tell me, but there's not often that bounce back of Okay, we survived it, we're back together at.
Least, you know what I actually do.
I think people that are committed because of the reasons that I said before, all the other things Jackie you brought up, I think that if people are committed, I think there is and invested in doing the work outside of therapy as well, because that's where most of the work happens. Right you're with a therapist for an hour, and you're both committed to coming and doing what's suggested.
I do think I have.
I can think of, just off the top of my head, five or six couples that had eat their emotional affairs Jackie asked, or affairs, and they're together, two of whom have had children since they started coming to me.
So I do.
I think it's really more about how invested are we and how are we working on the things in the marriage that help us to get to that place of earning back the trust right and in the relationship over time, and it's.
Got to be I don't know if this is this is the truth or just the way. I don't really know, but it feels to me like if we hadn't been through that and it was a long time ago, I don't know that we would be where we are today. I would not recommend I'm not advocating for infidelity, really I'm not, but I just think to myself, I still have this like there's this pervasive feeling that I'm lucky, you know, not just because I got we got back together. There are a lot of reasons why I feel blessed and that I have so much gratitude, But I feel like we don't take each other for granted like we did at the beginning of our marriage. It's not, you know, it's it's not a given.
Yep, that's not Can I ask you a question just some other things that in doing our research, we saw that it said finances, we're the biggest cause of stress in a relationship.
So but what can you do about that?
I mean, and do you advise women to have their own money and their own bank accounts.
I really think it just it depends on the dynamic of the relationship. What I've actually found is most people that are married first marriage, they have joint.
Accounts, interestingly enough, and then.
Most people that are on their second, third, eighteenth marriage, they usually have their own right. So now they've figured out for household expenses they usually have shared and for everything else they keep separate. And that's what I've seen the majority. I'm not sure why, Jackie. I don't know if it's just the first time around, maybe it's just do I think.
It's because they maybe want to protect if they have kids, they want to protect the kids right.
Right, if they have divorce, if they get divorced second time around, whatever, they have separate accounts.
Whatever it might be. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think everything is worthy of a discussion.
Okay, a discussion.
Yeah, what about relatives? Like extended families cause a lot of problems. What do you do about that? Because you can't just cut off your family, Like, what do you do about like mother in laws. I have a wonderful mother in law, but what do you do with a mother in law that like just won't stop interfering or in laws in generating.
I think it's important to first talk it out together. What are the things that are important, you know, husband and wife in terms of are boundaries and interference right, what is the most upsetting? Are we listening to each other about the things that we really need and the things that upset us or get disrupted by family? And a lot of the time it's an inability based on a history to set boundaries right with our parents, whether it's due to guilt, whether it's because they've been there for us our whole lives, whether it's because there's a dynamic that's happened since childhood that prevents them from setting up boundaries. So I think again, it's always going to be about a conversation. It's always going to be about how do we compromise on the things that are important to each of us when it comes to family members, So how do we stick up a boundary. Maybe it's a family that walks in without knocking, right, they just come over, Then there needs to be a conversation. If that's very disruptive to me and not to my husband, then I need to have a conversation. And the hope would be that depending on the dynamic, that one of us would have a conversation and start with validating and supporting the family. We love you so much, you know, we love having you come to our house, the kids. It makes the kids so happy, It makes us so happy. But sometimes it's hard for us when there's just a drop in because we have a lot of things going on and as much you know, we love, love, love having here. But we would so appreciate if you were, you know, to get a phone call before you come, just so we can make sure we're dressed and the kids are you know, we're ready or whatever it might be.
It just it makes it easier for us.
So again, talking for you, Jackie, about what you need instead of what the extended family or the you know, the family members are doing to you anything, y Right, it's what do we need to make.
Us feel okay?
And how can we validate and support the people that we love while trying to put up the boundary that says, hey, it's important to me that we get knocks on the door before people come over because it just kind of freaks me out.
So we'd really appreciate it.
Right, So instead of attacking the other person, or what other people are doing.
You make it more about your needs. I love that. Yeah, also Rob women around our age, Jackie, not you yet, but Robin, you and me? So the empty nest thing, right, So, I'm sure a lot of couples that you work with, probably the kids leave and what's left now? Right when when they've devoted so much time and effort to the kids, And is it do you find a lot of that couple struggling to reconnect after the kids are gone?
You know?
I think it really depends on the dynamic throughout in the relationship.
You know, I don't.
I do see it, but I don't know it's interesting enough. I don't know if I see it as much as I thought I would see it. I think there's a rekindling a lot of the time, or maybe that's the time where couples do come in and want to work on their relationship because they feel like they they put it on the back burner.
Yeah, I hear that, right, that they put their.
Relationship on the back burner as secondary to the children.
Right.
And that's where I try to change the dynamic. Like I said at the beginning, Oh no, no, no, no, no, you need to be as much of a priority as as your children. Otherwise you do end up with that. Now, where are we after the kids are gone?
So this is just a little funny anecdote. But years and years ago, Rachel, my daughter was I don't know how she was. She's a little girl, not little little, but little whatever. Maybe she was twelve, I don't know. But she said to me, who do you love the most in the world? And maybe she was younger, I can't whatever. I don't remember anything anymore, but but I remember she said it to me. And I was very conscious when I said to her, I want because I thought I want her to feel safe, right, And I said I love Daddy the most, which is a big Obviously, I think I made a big mistake. But I did it. I did it very I did. I made it. I made it very like purposely because I thought for I don't know why I would think that that that would just make her feel like mommy and Daddy. You know, I don't know what secure right. Anyway, she had a fit. She bitched, such a fit, the screaming exact Zack, do you do that? Oh my god, you see Rachel doing that? You know what, Mab We just said, she said he loves daddy bust. It was insane, and then I'm like trying to backtrack. I'm like, no, I just said that. I don't really mean it, Rach. I love you guys the most.
There's some good role modeling, Jenny, right, yes.
Exactly, but like you know that sort of like prioritizing the kids, I would think should see you prioritize you know your partner absolutely to be more than even not more than that.
What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to learn? I want them to learn love. You want them to learn partnership. You want them to learn friendship, you want them to learn togetheredness. Everything that I started with this at the beginning is what you're role modeling on a daily basis.
And we did not always do a great job of that. But you know, well, now they're out of the house, we're doing a really good job of it.
Well my kids are, and they don't love when we go out, and I like to go out fairly often, and I think it's a good thing, yeah, for them to watch us, because I don't want them to grow up and think that you have to devote your entire life to just staying home with your kids. I mean, of course you have to prioritize your children, but I don't want them to just sit.
Home, yeah with their kids. Yeah, No, I mean I think of.
I was just going to say.
The other thing is I hear literally daily, I hear when there's our problems in the marriage and people are at the verge of divorcing or feeling that they want to do something different.
To staying in the marriage for the children. I hear every day all day.
And when do you think if.
They're older, when the kids are older, right when they go to college, then we'll reevaluate. But right now, we don't want to do that to the kids. We don't want to separate from the kids.
What do you think of that?
I mean, I always tell people that you can't be in a marriage for your children. You're wasting a lot of years. You got to look at your own happiness and you stay in a marriage for the things that you get from it. You don't stay in a marriage for the things that you're fearful of losing.
Wow, I love that. I mean, I I just picturing scenarios where it is, you know, unhealthy for the kids to separate. I would think that is you have to prioritize that at some level, like even if you can coexist, then isn't that better for the kids then you know, a separated household.
But I don't. I mean, again, I don't agree. Where's the role modeling? Then? What role modeling are you teaching your children at that point?
I mean a lot of friends in unhappy marriages that just stay because the whole idea of being single again and living alone and honestly not seeing your kids all the time is completely overwhelming, and staying together in an unhappy relationship is just so much easier.
People.
I've heard quite often people say all men cheap. I happen to not think that's true, but realistically.
Not everyone gets caught. How many relationships do you think that there is adultery?
I mean, you know, I think that there is a big percentage. I wish I had my my notes on me because I get asked this question all the time, and a fifty four I can't ever remember anything. So I mean, I definitely think there's a percentage that's you know, maybe twenty percent, but I think I don't think it's half. I think there are many men in this world that are committed and loving and kind and respectful and want the same thing as you know. But I also don't think it's the end all be all either, Right, So it happens, and if it happens, what are we going to do. We're going to go and we're going to make our relationship hopefully, we're going to nurture it, do the things I'm talking about, and we're going to move forward healthier, right, and happier, and we won't be the old US, but we'll.
Be a new, anew US.
That's that's you know, well and improved, and that's what we're looking for. So I don't know, I don't agree with that all men cheat, absolutely not meither thine.
More men cheat than women. No, really really interesting, maybe not misdaining. Maybe back in the day it was different.
But I can tell you if I think of my caseload right now, it's probably fifty to fifty.
Wowly sally, Yeah, interesting.
And that's my caseload.
I don't know what it is, you know, with other people, but with what I what I see, I would say it's pretty equal. Okay, maybe maybe a slight tilt to the men, but not really that much, not that significantly.
I have we have like we could go on and on, like I have questions that are like not even we haven't even touched upon, like women that I know that would never like Jeff walks into this house and I am Jackie. I think you're different. Like you've said to me that like he walks in, I don't think there's a day that he walks in that I'm not in sweat, that's my hair in a frizzy ponytail, no makeup, like in usually in bed with food on the crumbs on the And you said you don't. I remember you said this man don't matter when that you do always like to look put together with them.
Yeah, I like to look put I mean not obviously, not when I'm going to bed, but yeah I'm not. I've just never been the type that walks around with like a scraggly pony in sweats.
But that doesn't have to do with Evan, or doesn't.
I mean, I also want to look attractive for him. I don't know, I like looking good for him, and he usually doesn't like bum around looking gross either.
Well do you think that matters, Rob?
I think it's it's it's yes, I mean I think that it's if we're looking sexually and we're looking.
Physically, we need to get into sex.
No, we did, and we missed the intimacy piece with women that are you know our age.
Yeah, listen, I have a healthy sex life, but like for a lot of women, they are between the child responsibilities and work and every else in life.
Like it's just not doesn't happen. Well, Jack, we had a podcast about sex and we talked about the fact that there are you know, women not just on reality TV, but in general that's claimed they have sex, you know, not only multiple times a week, multiple times a night, and there's you know this a lot of sex talk. And it certainly at my age, Jack, maybe not as much as yours, but it is not a priority. Only after twenty years of marriages, there's just not a priority like it used to be. But you know, as you get to be our age, I know that for men at least, this is what I know. For my friends, this is not I'm not saying I know this for a fact, but they want Most of my friends, the husbands or the partners want sex a lot more than the women do. And how to kind of reconcile that, right, And how much does that affect a marriage if there's you know, as women get older physically you become it becomes less enjoyable, like period, right, unless you use hormones and all of that. But the cravings I think for women, the women that I know, definitely go down, right, And how to navigate that in a marriage or in a partnership too, I.
Mean, I think it definitely women.
Menopause definitely changes things a lot, but so does children, right, So, and so I think Jackie, you had asked this, I think ahead of time or someone asked me this about you know, scheduling sex, right, So sometimes it's not as much about how often.
It's about making sure that it.
Is a priority and fitting in as a balance with the other things that are important in our lives. And at different ages, there's different things that are priorities, right, So I think it just depends. But scheduling sex, to me, when you have crazy life and you have children, and you have activities and jobs and all those things, I don't care if you put it on the calendar. I think it's a healthy thing to do.
Good because we quite often have to schedule sex, and I would absolutely. I've always wondered if that just just joys the intimacy that that part of it, Like we're like Thursday, nine thirty, can you we call it a conference call so that my kids, I hope my kids listen to.
This, so that they don't, you know, die of embarrassment. But we do know.
I think, yes, I think it's I think.
And what do you do in the marriages where where the one of the partners wants it and so much more than the other. What, Just like.
Everything else, I guess it's it's about we have to make sure that we're nurturing the other parts that create intimacy, the emotional, the physical, the affection, the conversation, the things that may be additionally fuel us in terms of how we feel, and with sex as well, and partners aren't going to be on the same page. So, like everything else, success in marriage is based on compromise, and it's based on an ability to vent our needs and our wants. That's the other main thing that keeps a marriage together is ability to vent and making sure that again we're putting ourselves in each other's subjective reality, right, shared meaning, and if something's more important to one person than the other. Then we need to find a compromise. So it's not all the time, it's a compromise.
So is that saying because I would I hear like women in the back of my head saying you should never have sex if you don't feel like it, Like, I'm sure that a lot of that's probably a pretty I don't know. I don't want to get myself in trouble here, but a little bit of a fit, right right? Yeah? And is it healthy to have sex because your partner really wants it and you want to make them happy physically, even if you're not in the mood.
Yeah, I do think it's okay.
So I might get about a backlash on this too, based on the world we live in today. But if I'm going from the perspective of shared meaning, and I'm going from a place of real love and a desire for connection, and I'm not saying all the time, but yes, if there is this a night and I'm absolutely exhausted or I had a terrible day and I'm in a terrible mood, am I then gonna force myself to do something? Probably not. But if it's just it's one of those nights and I just, you know, rather go to bed and my husband is into it. There's other things we can do to be intimate, right, we don't have to have sex. There are other things we can do physically and sexually without having intercourse.
Other things that we can do.
Yeah, that's a whole lot of conversation with you, sister. I love this.
I thought it was so good too. It makes me feel very fortunate. But I do recognize things that you know, Evan wants that I tell him to go do on his own, that I could probably give more of myself too.
But also, like I don't like we have when we there are things like the football thing, Rob, that my husband is obsessed with football. Like I was never going to become a football wife. I wasn't gonna sit down, you know and watch football games on Sundays, but Robin mentioned that. Yes, Like more recently, I had a friend kind of explained to me. I was like, it just became a little more enjoyable that I could share that with him. But he also was never like he never gave me shit about it. Like Jeff. In his family, there have been Giant season Giants season tickets for since Jeff was a little boy. Right, there were eight of them and I went to one game. Now that maybe is a marriage counselor that wasn't ideal, But I don't really think he gave a shit. I think he almost would rather have me not there, like annoying him during it. But there are other things, Yeah.
If you have to figure out what are those things?
One the things he really wants me to do with him, right, there are things, And I think the travel thing is a good example, because he doesn't want to go see, uh, whatever the historical sites are if we're both traveling to a different country on his own and I want to see some of them of course, but so trying to find some compromise there. Yeah, right, well we've solved all the marriage problems in the world. Who our listeners must be so happy, everybody, go forth and have go geta yes, exactly exactly. Thank you, this is amazing. You're amazing.
Good lung with you, guys. Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it and love you, Robbie, love you so much, Bye, honey.
So a few things.
First of all, you know Tiki Barber was on the show for one season, yes, like right before you guys, came along. Yeah, Jeff would have liked that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff would have died he We were at Melissa Gorgo's for a Christmas Eve, I don't know how many years ago, and then not many, No Melissa for ten years but whatever, And there were these two football players and I don't even remember what those who are those football players at the Gorgas that Christmas? Oh justin talk? Oh you were there. No, I wasn't there, but I know that they were friendly with them. I think John John, Pierre Paul. Anyway, whatever, the point is that.
The guy who he's the guy who blew off his finger with a firecracker.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, see I do know football. Yeah whatever, oh on the Jets doesn't matter, It doesn't matter for our purposes. The point is that, I mean, my husband lit up like a Christmas tree. It was like me running into I don't know, mad Madonna. It was just so crazy, like his passion is it runs really really deep. I don't know what my point in that is other than he's obsessed and I really haven't been. And but there are other things like so I compromise on on what I can. I guess I know he compromises for sure. Yeah, like I am. I think I'm harder than he is. For instance, on the weekends, you know, Jeff is working all week and he likes to go out. I would rather on any day. I'd rather stay home like any night. So I won't go out two nights on a weekend unless we have like real plans.
That is the exact opposite of my marriage. Yeah, and Evan likes to only go out like one time a week, which I respect you.
I don't even want to go out sometimes once.
He also coaches my kids basketball like all weekends and several nights a week. And I like to go out a lot, at least I don't.
If you look at my social media, it seems that I like to go out a lot, but I don't. I really, I really am a homebody. But I will make myself get up and either make plans or go out just because he wants you. That's not even a great example. But there's so many compromises that I think that we've you know, learned to make over the years, and we are not. I don't want to, you know, represent us as the poster children for an ideal marriage. We have our we still obviously after all these years. We have a lot of stuff, like everyone does.
But it's yeah, but I can tell by the way that you talk about your husband.
I can.
I mean, I've had plenty of conversations with my girlfriends about their husbands, and I can just sense when there's just constant frustration or when there's the occasional frustration, but so much love.
And you and Jeff love each other so much.
Which is amazing to me because I always grew up with this mindset of like, you cheat, it's over right, you know, And I think young girls are kind of taught that, like your spouse cheats on you and it's done.
I feel very lucky about that. And I can't really explain how we got here. I just feel lucky that we did. But I would say that more than anything, And it's the first thing that Robin pointed to. We are best friends and he we are allies, so not you know, doesn't mean that we don't have that we don't fight, but when something happens, you know, big, not always small. But but he's my always, my first phone call when I'm upset, when I'm I mean, girlfriends are different, right, There are things that I can talk to my girlfriends about that. I wouldn't talk to Jeff about But in general, like you know, we're just we're a team, and that is what I hope. I hope, hope, hope for my kids if they find someone and who can you know, be on the team with them, and I hope they have wonderful intimate relationships. But from where I sit, it's the most important thing is to feel that friendship. You know. Yeah, I agree with you. I love this. I love it too. Yeah, so it's good, all right, you guys. We are two Jersey days now. I was gonna say, I'm gonna go home and have sex with my husband, but I mean, I don't know how that led to this. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna I'm gonna get off the phone and uh definitely not have sex with my husband, but I'll compromise in another way today.
Okay, So we're two Jersey jays. Thank you for listening, Thanks guys for showing you.
Bye mm
Hm hm
