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Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

If you think that one person has all the answers, don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two forces who've actually experienced it. I am Lola.

If you think that one person has all the answers, don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two forces who've actually experienced it. I am Lola.

Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

And today's Part one with our incredible listener guest Caitlin J. Lavety, a former member of Evangelical Healing Ministry, or as she calls it, cult, Operation Light Force. In this episode, she's going to tell us about how she joined the group when she was struggling with Crohn's disease, extremely sick and isolated, and how the group's promises of community, God and literal physical healing seemed like the answer in her moment of vulnerability and illness.

And today's Part one with our incredible listener guest Caitlin J. Lavety, a former member of Evangelical Healing Ministry, or as she calls it, cult, Operation Light Force. In this episode, she's going to tell us about how she joined the group when she was struggling with Crohn's disease, extremely sick and isolated, and how the group's promises of community, God and literal physical healing seemed like the answer in her moment of vulnerability and illness.

We'll talk about how the leader, Richard, began doing counseling sessions with her, teaching his followers that any physical ailment they experienced was a result of their own sin or trauma or maybe just satan. In any case, the goalpost was always moving and he was the one with the answers. Plus, stay tuned for part two next week, when we'll discuss how her counseling sessions led to being told she'd experienced satanic ritual abuse.

We'll talk about how the leader, Richard, began doing counseling sessions with her, teaching his followers that any physical ailment they experienced was a result of their own sin or trauma or maybe just satan. In any case, the goalpost was always moving and he was the one with the answers. Plus, stay tuned for part two next week, when we'll discuss how her counseling sessions led to being told she'd experienced satanic ritual abuse.

Oh boy, there's so much here. We talked for two hours and I feel like we barely scratched the surface. Like there's just so much. And she's so smart in how she thinks about it now, a lot of awareness. Yeah. So, before we jump in with Caitlin.

Oh boy, there's so much here. We talked for two hours and I feel like we barely scratched the surface. Like there's just so much. And she's so smart in how she thinks about it now, a lot of awareness. Yeah. So, before we jump in with Caitlin.

Okay, why did you guy? That was the craziest thing I've ever said?

Okay, why did you guy? That was the craziest thing I've ever said?

Because I hate so stupid why I'm tired of saving dive in socause if jump in is like a whole new way of saying it. Before we proceed with Caitlin, tell me your cultiest thing please.

Because I hate so stupid why I'm tired of saving dive in socause if jump in is like a whole new way of saying it. Before we proceed with Caitlin, tell me your cultiest thing please.

Okay, my cultiest thing this week is actually old news, but it's news that I had never seen before. And I found it interesting, sad, scary, interesting, and that I would share it with y'all. Maybe some of you all heard about it when it happened, but I had not. Anyway, I sign on to x Twitter, whatever you want to call it, and I don't know if this is your experience, but my Twitter feed is just like absolute violence. Yeah, Like all I want to look up is like positive quotes and like poppies, and it's just like people's arms being like ripped off, and it's just the most traumatizing shit. Right. One of the things that I saw was this man drowning, and I looked more into it, and he was this Indonesian kind of People were calling him a shaman or a cult leader or somebody who had kind of a spiritual group in his community. And he said that his chanting would make it so that like he couldn't get eaten by an alligator, and somebody had gone missing from an alligator attack. So they drop him in this body of water and he starts doing the chanting and an alligator just comes and drags him.

Okay, my cultiest thing this week is actually old news, but it's news that I had never seen before. And I found it interesting, sad, scary, interesting, and that I would share it with y'all. Maybe some of you all heard about it when it happened, but I had not. Anyway, I sign on to x Twitter, whatever you want to call it, and I don't know if this is your experience, but my Twitter feed is just like absolute violence. Yeah, Like all I want to look up is like positive quotes and like poppies, and it's just like people's arms being like ripped off, and it's just the most traumatizing shit. Right. One of the things that I saw was this man drowning, and I looked more into it, and he was this Indonesian kind of People were calling him a shaman or a cult leader or somebody who had kind of a spiritual group in his community. And he said that his chanting would make it so that like he couldn't get eaten by an alligator, and somebody had gone missing from an alligator attack. So they drop him in this body of water and he starts doing the chanting and an alligator just comes and drags him.

Stop.

Stop.

Oh my god, I missed that completely. When was that twenty seventeen? Wow?

Oh my god, I missed that completely. When was that twenty seventeen? Wow?

But for some reason, when I opened to X. It's the first thing it showed.

But for some reason, when I opened to X. It's the first thing it showed.

Me that's insane. So it was it was the leader himself who has taken Oh my.

Me that's insane. So it was it was the leader himself who has taken Oh my.

God, yes, and his followers are like, what what?

God, yes, and his followers are like, what what?

It just feels like such irony, Like that's you. That would be in a play, you know what I mean?

It just feels like such irony, Like that's you. That would be in a play, you know what I mean?

Yeah, And again this was a source on X. I did look it up. I found it in a few other places, but like a lot more information is needed. I just found it interesting. So often these leaders don't believe what they're saying and know they're full of shit, but this same definitely believed believed what he was saying and immediately got taken away by alligators. And just what that would feel like to his followers who are like, what just happened? Like that's some immediate fucking cognitive dissonance times nine thousand millions?

Yeah, And again this was a source on X. I did look it up. I found it in a few other places, but like a lot more information is needed. I just found it interesting. So often these leaders don't believe what they're saying and know they're full of shit, but this same definitely believed believed what he was saying and immediately got taken away by alligators. And just what that would feel like to his followers who are like, what just happened? Like that's some immediate fucking cognitive dissonance times nine thousand millions?

Yeah, how would you even? I mean, listen, Like, we obviously have seen a million examples of that where people are like, you know, this is the date that the end is coming, and then the end doesn't come or all totally reverse position on on anything, and there will always be some justification for it. But if he's not there to like come up with a justification. What do you then, how do you then make sense of that? That's so crazy?

Yeah, how would you even? I mean, listen, Like, we obviously have seen a million examples of that where people are like, you know, this is the date that the end is coming, and then the end doesn't come or all totally reverse position on on anything, and there will always be some justification for it. But if he's not there to like come up with a justification. What do you then, how do you then make sense of that? That's so crazy?

Wow? So yeah, I would love to know information about what happened to that group, how they at first dealt with the what they're reasoning around it was, because obviously you would have to have some reasoning I'm assuming.

Wow? So yeah, I would love to know information about what happened to that group, how they at first dealt with the what they're reasoning around it was, because obviously you would have to have some reasoning I'm assuming.

Like, yeah, like if you still wanted to stay in that group and maintain that belief system, Like I wonder maybe it's like, well, he wasn't up on his righteousness.

Like, yeah, like if you still wanted to stay in that group and maintain that belief system, Like I wonder maybe it's like, well, he wasn't up on his righteousness.

I'm sure they expected him to just come back.

I'm sure they expected him to just come back.

Maybe yeah, Yeah, that's where.

Maybe yeah, Yeah, that's where.

My mind would go, like, no, he didn't, right, he was extremely dead.

My mind would go, like, no, he didn't, right, he was extremely dead.

But maybe it's one of those things where it's like any day now.

But maybe it's one of those things where it's like any day now.

Still, you know, right, I mean, the brain will do weird things.

Still, you know, right, I mean, the brain will do weird things.

It's so true.

It's so true.

What about you, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

What about you, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

Well, I just was thinking about, you know, really relevant to this episode and a lot of the stuff we're about to talk about, this idea of religious healing preventing people from getting treatment that they actually need that could potentially save their lives. And this actually happened to one of Jack's family members. This actually happened to his aunt, who was very devout a part of a Christianish religion that basically didn't believe in healthcare. I think he's hazy on some of the details because it was it was a while ago now, but they were just doing prayer and juicing and saying that that was going to be enough and God was going to save her. And she did not go to the doctor and get the treatment that she needed and did end up dying, and it's just so it's just so sad. It's just so sad. I mean, there's so many people, you know, which is not just listen, like sometimes maybe they would have died anyway, but maybe their life could have been a hell of a lot longer, you know, or just I don't know, just giving someone hope like that as they're getting sicker and sicker. It just it's so fucking fucked up. And I haven't looked into this at all, so I'm just kind of talking out of my ass here. But one of the things I say in this interview with Caitlin is like I wonder if there has been a precedent set for a church or leader facing consequences for encouraging people to not get medical treatment when they need it, because it really is it seems like a form of like violence almost. I mean, you are encouraging somebody to not.

Well, I just was thinking about, you know, really relevant to this episode and a lot of the stuff we're about to talk about, this idea of religious healing preventing people from getting treatment that they actually need that could potentially save their lives. And this actually happened to one of Jack's family members. This actually happened to his aunt, who was very devout a part of a Christianish religion that basically didn't believe in healthcare. I think he's hazy on some of the details because it was it was a while ago now, but they were just doing prayer and juicing and saying that that was going to be enough and God was going to save her. And she did not go to the doctor and get the treatment that she needed and did end up dying, and it's just so it's just so sad. It's just so sad. I mean, there's so many people, you know, which is not just listen, like sometimes maybe they would have died anyway, but maybe their life could have been a hell of a lot longer, you know, or just I don't know, just giving someone hope like that as they're getting sicker and sicker. It just it's so fucking fucked up. And I haven't looked into this at all, so I'm just kind of talking out of my ass here. But one of the things I say in this interview with Caitlin is like I wonder if there has been a precedent set for a church or leader facing consequences for encouraging people to not get medical treatment when they need it, because it really is it seems like a form of like violence almost. I mean, you are encouraging somebody to not.

I mean, I'm on a lot of Jehovah's Witness redd up boards and one of the things, of course that wakes a lot of people up is like them being like and this seven year old refused the blood transfusion and like, praise God, yes he lost his life, but he went out like that is the first place I would start with that, And nothing's ever been done, you know, And that's I mean not to my knowledge on my Reddit board.

I mean, I'm on a lot of Jehovah's Witness redd up boards and one of the things, of course that wakes a lot of people up is like them being like and this seven year old refused the blood transfusion and like, praise God, yes he lost his life, but he went out like that is the first place I would start with that, And nothing's ever been done, you know, And that's I mean not to my knowledge on my Reddit board.

Again, we haven't done any research on this, so we could totally be wrong, but it just seems like one of the great injustices of you know, extreme religions and cults that do have these belief systems is that you are there is death that doesn't need to happen, or even just grave illness that doesn't need to happen.

Again, we haven't done any research on this, so we could totally be wrong, but it just seems like one of the great injustices of you know, extreme religions and cults that do have these belief systems is that you are there is death that doesn't need to happen, or even just grave illness that doesn't need to happen.

It seems like a loophole in the system that we've seen a million times with cults where it's like, well, you're choosing it.

It seems like a loophole in the system that we've seen a million times with cults where it's like, well, you're choosing it.

Right, but it's like if you have been told that that's the only way that you're late.

Right, but it's like if you have been told that that's the only way that you're late.

It's not right. But I could see where the law could be behind.

It's not right. But I could see where the law could be behind.

I mean, I think the law is very much behind, especially here. I think it's catching up in a couple of places in Europe maybe, And it really varies state by state how much the law really recognizes coerceive control. And it's a really difficult thing to prove. You really have to have lots of stuff in writing. And then even then a lot of states the law just isn't there yet. So I'll be curious to see if that changes at some point. But in any case, y'all, if you're feeling sick, please go to the doctor and listen. It's our medicals. Our healthcare system isn't great, but it's better than doing nothing. So that's my zing for the day.

I mean, I think the law is very much behind, especially here. I think it's catching up in a couple of places in Europe maybe, And it really varies state by state how much the law really recognizes coerceive control. And it's a really difficult thing to prove. You really have to have lots of stuff in writing. And then even then a lot of states the law just isn't there yet. So I'll be curious to see if that changes at some point. But in any case, y'all, if you're feeling sick, please go to the doctor and listen. It's our medicals. Our healthcare system isn't great, but it's better than doing nothing. So that's my zing for the day.

Whatever. Wait, amazing, Well should we talk to Caitlin.

Whatever. Wait, amazing, Well should we talk to Caitlin.

Let's do it. Welcome Caitlyn Jade Lavity to trust me. Thanks so much for being with us today.

Let's do it. Welcome Caitlyn Jade Lavity to trust me. Thanks so much for being with us today.

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on.

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on.

I'm so excited to have you on. So you were actually one of our listeners who called in with the craziest story that I think we were saying before we were recording. I think is really important to talk about because there is such a huge problem with this idea of religious healing and people being exploited in that way, which we really have not talked very much about. So to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about where you were at before you got involved with this group and how you got your diagnosis?

I'm so excited to have you on. So you were actually one of our listeners who called in with the craziest story that I think we were saying before we were recording. I think is really important to talk about because there is such a huge problem with this idea of religious healing and people being exploited in that way, which we really have not talked very much about. So to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about where you were at before you got involved with this group and how you got your diagnosis?

Absolutely so well, where I was at, like in terms of geography, in terms of religion, like.

Absolutely so well, where I was at, like in terms of geography, in terms of religion, like.

In terms of religion, emotionally, physically, like what was your life like?

In terms of religion, emotionally, physically, like what was your life like?

Well, I am from the Tampa Bay area, so kind of moved around a lot. I was kind of what I would say is like stereotypical, able bodied Southern Baptist girl, pretty sporty, perky, doing my thing, batsing around. I played volleyball with my friends. I went to church every Wednesday night youth group, and you know, Sunday morning and Sunday night. I went to a kind of strict fundamentalist Christian school, which I thought was weird, but my parents were like, and I didn't really listen to those guys like, it's our church is the way to do it, don't worry about it.

Well, I am from the Tampa Bay area, so kind of moved around a lot. I was kind of what I would say is like stereotypical, able bodied Southern Baptist girl, pretty sporty, perky, doing my thing, batsing around. I played volleyball with my friends. I went to church every Wednesday night youth group, and you know, Sunday morning and Sunday night. I went to a kind of strict fundamentalist Christian school, which I thought was weird, but my parents were like, and I didn't really listen to those guys like, it's our church is the way to do it, don't worry about it.

What church was that, Gosh, I don't.

What church was that, Gosh, I don't.

Quite remember what it was called. But they had their own way of doing things they believed, like women should not cut their hair, were in makeup, they shouldn't wear pants, you know. So I had very early on introduced the idea that Christianity had many different sets to it, and that people had different ideas of doing religion, and that everybody believed that their version was the correct version, and that everybody else was kind of doing it wrong, and don't worry over there, just stand your lane and God will bless you for doing it correctly quote unquote. And I just thought, cool, okay, as long as we're doing it the right way, no worries, and I didn't think anything of it. And then I went to a good Christian college. In my eyes, I wanted to go to a Christian college, and I, you know, I was a very dedicated Christian girl. You know, I abstinence only went to the youth camps, and I rededicated my life. I was a super anxious girl, so I like got saved at every altar call because I was worried about the rapture coming and taking me and being being left behind. If that resonates with anybody, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then as I went to college, I noticed that my stomach started to get tender a little bit more often than it used to. But I strang it up to maybe a few late night meals or a little bit too greasy tacos. You know, you're in college or eating fast food later than your mom maybe would have made you. And I'm listening to new music for the first time, and I'm out in the world for the first time, and everybody's so different, and oh wow, everything looks so cool. And then I just started getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And at first I was going into walking clinics and they said, oh, you've just got a stomach flu, No big deal, you know, take a z pac, Maybe do the Brat diet bread, rice, apple, sauce, toast. You'll be fine. Take a pediat. Shake it off. Kid, you're young. And it just kept getting more and more serious. And I was on Trycare American Military health insurance because my dad was in the military. And Trycare really is, in my opinion, good for specialty illnessness. It's really not good for anything other than like a cold, so and it takes a long time to get in. So once I realized, hey, I think there's something more severe there. It was about my sophomore year of college, and I had dropped like twenty five thirty pounds, and I was like, Okay, I need to see like a gastroenterologist here. Something is wrong, Like I'm having like diarrhea and vomiting every single time I eat. My skin is all splotchy, my hair to fall out like this, something's not right. And it took a few years to even get diagnosed. So that's stretched through my entire undergraduate course of me jumping to different doctors, eventually getting off of Tricare because it became clear that none of the gis that I could go to were qualified to diagnose me. They were mostly for Eldercare people. And that entire time, I was becoming more and more desperate. I was restricting my eating because you can't get sick you don't eat girl math. So you know, bad girl math, those in poor taste. No bad, yes, not not advisable girl math. But so I that whole time is growing thinner and thinner and thinner and more and more and more desperate and kind of reaching out to God as I knew it, being like hey God, it's me Margaret, Like hey, like where are you? I'm praying I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm I'm not seeing any relief. And it didn't quite come from there. And then I started taking advice from loose friends and relatives that start to come down up the woodwork when you get really sick, like, oh, have you tried maybe doing yoga, or oh have you maybe tried a juice cleanse, or you try to act you puncture? Have you tried essential oils or in the list goes on and on. I'm sure anyone with a chronic illness or any serious disability or disease will be familiar with tail. So I tried everything at a certain point, everything in anything that anyone would give me to try. I got desperate. Towards the point that I first interacted with my cults. I was getting sick upwards of twelve to fifteen times a day, and I was only eating maybe once or twice a week.

Quite remember what it was called. But they had their own way of doing things they believed, like women should not cut their hair, were in makeup, they shouldn't wear pants, you know. So I had very early on introduced the idea that Christianity had many different sets to it, and that people had different ideas of doing religion, and that everybody believed that their version was the correct version, and that everybody else was kind of doing it wrong, and don't worry over there, just stand your lane and God will bless you for doing it correctly quote unquote. And I just thought, cool, okay, as long as we're doing it the right way, no worries, and I didn't think anything of it. And then I went to a good Christian college. In my eyes, I wanted to go to a Christian college, and I, you know, I was a very dedicated Christian girl. You know, I abstinence only went to the youth camps, and I rededicated my life. I was a super anxious girl, so I like got saved at every altar call because I was worried about the rapture coming and taking me and being being left behind. If that resonates with anybody, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then as I went to college, I noticed that my stomach started to get tender a little bit more often than it used to. But I strang it up to maybe a few late night meals or a little bit too greasy tacos. You know, you're in college or eating fast food later than your mom maybe would have made you. And I'm listening to new music for the first time, and I'm out in the world for the first time, and everybody's so different, and oh wow, everything looks so cool. And then I just started getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And at first I was going into walking clinics and they said, oh, you've just got a stomach flu, No big deal, you know, take a z pac, Maybe do the Brat diet bread, rice, apple, sauce, toast. You'll be fine. Take a pediat. Shake it off. Kid, you're young. And it just kept getting more and more serious. And I was on Trycare American Military health insurance because my dad was in the military. And Trycare really is, in my opinion, good for specialty illnessness. It's really not good for anything other than like a cold, so and it takes a long time to get in. So once I realized, hey, I think there's something more severe there. It was about my sophomore year of college, and I had dropped like twenty five thirty pounds, and I was like, Okay, I need to see like a gastroenterologist here. Something is wrong, Like I'm having like diarrhea and vomiting every single time I eat. My skin is all splotchy, my hair to fall out like this, something's not right. And it took a few years to even get diagnosed. So that's stretched through my entire undergraduate course of me jumping to different doctors, eventually getting off of Tricare because it became clear that none of the gis that I could go to were qualified to diagnose me. They were mostly for Eldercare people. And that entire time, I was becoming more and more desperate. I was restricting my eating because you can't get sick you don't eat girl math. So you know, bad girl math, those in poor taste. No bad, yes, not not advisable girl math. But so I that whole time is growing thinner and thinner and thinner and more and more and more desperate and kind of reaching out to God as I knew it, being like hey God, it's me Margaret, Like hey, like where are you? I'm praying I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm I'm not seeing any relief. And it didn't quite come from there. And then I started taking advice from loose friends and relatives that start to come down up the woodwork when you get really sick, like, oh, have you tried maybe doing yoga, or oh have you maybe tried a juice cleanse, or you try to act you puncture? Have you tried essential oils or in the list goes on and on. I'm sure anyone with a chronic illness or any serious disability or disease will be familiar with tail. So I tried everything at a certain point, everything in anything that anyone would give me to try. I got desperate. Towards the point that I first interacted with my cults. I was getting sick upwards of twelve to fifteen times a day, and I was only eating maybe once or twice a week.

I'm WHOA, sorry you're describing.

I'm WHOA, sorry you're describing.

Yeah, it was miserable. It was absolutely miserable. I cannot express to you enough how absolutely horrible it was. And I think that that's something too, that it's important the context of what kind of placed me in the perfect position to kind of be desperate, because it's not always people that are kind of like I don't know. I think before experiencing this, I had in my mind maybe the idea of a person who would join a cult, and I don't think I would have fit that description, Like I consider myself a pretty intelligent person and like articulate and like charming, and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm just bopping down the street doing my thing. I'm from a suburb, Like you know, I don't join cults. And that's all horribly stereotypical and untrue. And now that's part of why I reached out to you guys in the first place. I'm like, if you are desperate enough or alone enough, something that I want to really stress. From that point in my life, I was advised to medically drop out of undergraduate and I refused because I didn't want to get behind in my schooling. I didn't want to lose a year. I was four hours away from my family because I was in school. I didn't communicate with them because I didn't want to let them know how bad it was. I didn't know how to talk to them about it. I didn't want them to feel the burden of how sick that I was, or that I think I was dying. I'm pretty positive I was dying, and it just was too much effort. So finally all of that happens, and I go home one summer, This was around twenty fourteen. This was the summer of my junior year. And I went home and essentially all I could do because with all of that lack of food, you lose energy, so I was essentially just bedridden. My brother came home from a Christian summer camp, youth camp like all all good boys and girls go to, and uh, he said, Hey, I left my backpack at youth camp. Would you come with me to go and get it? You basically just sit around like would you come with me?

Yeah, it was miserable. It was absolutely miserable. I cannot express to you enough how absolutely horrible it was. And I think that that's something too, that it's important the context of what kind of placed me in the perfect position to kind of be desperate, because it's not always people that are kind of like I don't know. I think before experiencing this, I had in my mind maybe the idea of a person who would join a cult, and I don't think I would have fit that description, Like I consider myself a pretty intelligent person and like articulate and like charming, and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm just bopping down the street doing my thing. I'm from a suburb, Like you know, I don't join cults. And that's all horribly stereotypical and untrue. And now that's part of why I reached out to you guys in the first place. I'm like, if you are desperate enough or alone enough, something that I want to really stress. From that point in my life, I was advised to medically drop out of undergraduate and I refused because I didn't want to get behind in my schooling. I didn't want to lose a year. I was four hours away from my family because I was in school. I didn't communicate with them because I didn't want to let them know how bad it was. I didn't know how to talk to them about it. I didn't want them to feel the burden of how sick that I was, or that I think I was dying. I'm pretty positive I was dying, and it just was too much effort. So finally all of that happens, and I go home one summer, This was around twenty fourteen. This was the summer of my junior year. And I went home and essentially all I could do because with all of that lack of food, you lose energy, so I was essentially just bedridden. My brother came home from a Christian summer camp, youth camp like all all good boys and girls go to, and uh, he said, Hey, I left my backpack at youth camp. Would you come with me to go and get it? You basically just sit around like would you come with me?

M hmm. I want to rewind really fast, because can you tell us what your diagnosis actually was and and did doctors able to were they able to do anything at all? Like what was your history at this point with the actual medical establishment?

M hmm. I want to rewind really fast, because can you tell us what your diagnosis actually was and and did doctors able to were they able to do anything at all? Like what was your history at this point with the actual medical establishment?

Absolutely? Yeah, thank you. So my diagnosis which came just like right before that, I had just gotten diagnosed like that summer. It took that long with Crohn's disease, So thank you very much. I appreciate that because I had totally forgotten. I'd skipped right over that part. I got diagnosed with Croms disease and pretty severe crumbs disease, So something to keep in mind for later. My Crown's disease essentially is an autoimmune disorder, and that is just essentially the immune system attacking itself in the intestines in my case, and it works in flares and remissions. So in my case, I will be in flares for several years and then I will be in remission for several years. So positives and then negatives.

Absolutely? Yeah, thank you. So my diagnosis which came just like right before that, I had just gotten diagnosed like that summer. It took that long with Crohn's disease, So thank you very much. I appreciate that because I had totally forgotten. I'd skipped right over that part. I got diagnosed with Croms disease and pretty severe crumbs disease, So something to keep in mind for later. My Crown's disease essentially is an autoimmune disorder, and that is just essentially the immune system attacking itself in the intestines in my case, and it works in flares and remissions. So in my case, I will be in flares for several years and then I will be in remission for several years. So positives and then negatives.

At that point, like, so you got your diagnosis and you're talking to a GI guy or girl, and what are they giving you as options? Like what are they telling you?

At that point, like, so you got your diagnosis and you're talking to a GI guy or girl, and what are they giving you as options? Like what are they telling you?

So at that point, because it had been untreated for solong, a lot of my options were just damage control. So uh, they started me off on steroids because I had a lot of active infections. So your prednozone essentially is what they give you to knock down any infection almost and then they'll give you a lot of biologics or what they're called essentially to kind of stomp down your immune system because the immune systems what's attacking you. So if you don't have an immune system, it can't attack you. Is essentially.

So at that point, because it had been untreated for solong, a lot of my options were just damage control. So uh, they started me off on steroids because I had a lot of active infections. So your prednozone essentially is what they give you to knock down any infection almost and then they'll give you a lot of biologics or what they're called essentially to kind of stomp down your immune system because the immune systems what's attacking you. So if you don't have an immune system, it can't attack you. Is essentially.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, oh man, that sounds so incredibly stressful.

Yeah, oh man, that sounds so incredibly stressful.

And it is very stressful.

And it is very stressful.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness.

So I was facing down that option, and then towards the end of going to that summer camp, they were like, hey, your biologics are not working. So the options we were looking at were uh, low dose chemotherapy or reconstruction surgery.

So I was facing down that option, and then towards the end of going to that summer camp, they were like, hey, your biologics are not working. So the options we were looking at were uh, low dose chemotherapy or reconstruction surgery.

Oh wow.

Oh wow.

So those were my choices as again like a nineteen.

So those were my choices as again like a nineteen.

Year old, Oh my gosh, wouild.

Year old, Oh my gosh, wouild.

Is scary, that's yeah, and terrifying. And I had like medical phobia at that point, so it was having anxiety attacks like every time I was even thinking about it.

Is scary, that's yeah, and terrifying. And I had like medical phobia at that point, so it was having anxiety attacks like every time I was even thinking about it.

Oh my god. So yeah, you're basically describing a situation that anyone who would be and that would be desperate for an answer, a solution, a cure because there's not like it's not like you can just be like, oh you have crones. Here you go, here's your crones pill, and then you're just right.

Oh my god. So yeah, you're basically describing a situation that anyone who would be and that would be desperate for an answer, a solution, a cure because there's not like it's not like you can just be like, oh you have crones. Here you go, here's your crones pill, and then you're just right.

But yeah, and there are like I was definitely taking pills. But at the end of the day too, like with with my level of severity there, it was maintenance pills, like there wasn't anything they can do. And Chron's disease is an incurable autoimmune disorder. So even if I got into mission, it's just about like maintaining remission. Even then I would still have symptoms. But we were at it like all time high flare, like your body is damaging itself. If we do not stop it, you are going to die. So I would have done anything. I literally would have done anything, and I kind.

But yeah, and there are like I was definitely taking pills. But at the end of the day too, like with with my level of severity there, it was maintenance pills, like there wasn't anything they can do. And Chron's disease is an incurable autoimmune disorder. So even if I got into mission, it's just about like maintaining remission. Even then I would still have symptoms. But we were at it like all time high flare, like your body is damaging itself. If we do not stop it, you are going to die. So I would have done anything. I literally would have done anything, and I kind.

Of did so.

Of did so.

Well understandably, I mean, especially given the context of you know, your life up to this point, which is somebody who was engaging with religion and like.

Well understandably, I mean, especially given the context of you know, your life up to this point, which is somebody who was engaging with religion and like.

Absolutely, and I think I may have even understated it, like I was a very dedicated Christian.

Absolutely, and I think I may have even understated it, like I was a very dedicated Christian.

I was gonna ask, like you said, you know, you went to college, You're listening to new music, You're meeting new exciting people, Like was there a part of you that thought, oh my gosh, I need to get away from all of this and like rededicate myself to I don't know, to the Lord or the Lord, and like this is this has been bad luck or something.

I was gonna ask, like you said, you know, you went to college, You're listening to new music, You're meeting new exciting people, Like was there a part of you that thought, oh my gosh, I need to get away from all of this and like rededicate myself to I don't know, to the Lord or the Lord, and like this is this has been bad luck or something.

Even when I was like I'm listening to new music and meeting new exciting people, like I was still that was like in my classes and like I heard new music in a car driving Vie I was still so afraid would.

Even when I was like I'm listening to new music and meeting new exciting people, like I was still that was like in my classes and like I heard new music in a car driving Vie I was still so afraid would.

Catch me at the right.

Catch me at the right.

Rapture and he'd be like, what are you listening to? And I'd be like, oh, my goad, sorry it was air A Smith and my god, you know. So I was so. I was very dedicated, and I even like led a Saturday morning Bible study a Pannana bread downtown, like I was still a hundred Panera literally the whitest thing you could think of.

Rapture and he'd be like, what are you listening to? And I'd be like, oh, my goad, sorry it was air A Smith and my god, you know. So I was so. I was very dedicated, and I even like led a Saturday morning Bible study a Pannana bread downtown, like I was still a hundred Panera literally the whitest thing you could think of.

But they were like, here's there's the Bible study.

But they were like, here's there's the Bible study.

That was fine, well okay. It was like they had a little outdoor courtyard bagels and we did it outside.

That was fine, well okay. It was like they had a little outdoor courtyard bagels and we did it outside.

I would go for much for sure.

I would go for much for sure.

Yeah, I'm definitely a carb girl, so I for like, if it was the morning, I'd go for those like crispy crunchy. Well when I could eat. You have to remember too, I wasn't really eating at that time. I'd buy a bagel for show and I would just like sit it next to me. I purchased something, so you can't really kick me out right, and I just give it.

Yeah, I'm definitely a carb girl, so I for like, if it was the morning, I'd go for those like crispy crunchy. Well when I could eat. You have to remember too, I wasn't really eating at that time. I'd buy a bagel for show and I would just like sit it next to me. I purchased something, so you can't really kick me out right, and I just give it.

Man, I was ministering, Yeah you were, and Panera bread that is a new one.

Man, I was ministering, Yeah you were, and Panera bread that is a new one.

Because I was a Panera minister.

Because I was a Panera minister.

We turned to cream cheese.

We turned to cream cheese.

They we're going to get a letter from somebody being like I was in a Panera bread colt.

They we're going to get a letter from somebody being like I was in a Panera bread colt.

Please, I cannot wait. I cannot wait for that day.

Please, I cannot wait. I cannot wait for that day.

I'm very sorry. But also I was the smear.

I'm very sorry. But also I was the smear.

All right, So you were religious as hell.

All right, So you were religious as hell.

Basically I was low key religious as hell. Yes, I could whip a sucker at a sword drill. Yeah yeah, sow.

Basically I was low key religious as hell. Yes, I could whip a sucker at a sword drill. Yeah yeah, sow.

O c d almost maybe like it was like taken out, Yeah.

O c d almost maybe like it was like taken out, Yeah.

A little bit. I started having anxiety attacks about the rapture and being left behind when I was like ten.

A little bit. I started having anxiety attacks about the rapture and being left behind when I was like ten.

So, Megan, are you relating so right now?

So, Megan, are you relating so right now?

I like, I was gonna ask if you were raised in the same thing as religion as me.

I like, I was gonna ask if you were raised in the same thing as religion as me.

But I know it sounded so similar.

But I know it sounded so similar.

It did, but you probably weren't. But anyway, did you did you meet in homes or did you meet in church buildings?

It did, but you probably weren't. But anyway, did you did you meet in homes or did you meet in church buildings?

So we actually did meet in church buildings?

So we actually did meet in church buildings?

Okay? Great? Then no different, different, different, different thing. Yeah okay, but I relate a lot to your story besides the crowns part.

Okay? Great? Then no different, different, different, different thing. Yeah okay, but I relate a lot to your story besides the crowns part.

Yeah sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, my story on a personal level.

Yeah sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, my story on a personal level.

Yeah, me too. I like the state of mind you must have been in with all of this going on at the same time, Like I can't even imagine to throw in being sick into all of that.

Yeah, me too. I like the state of mind you must have been in with all of this going on at the same time, Like I can't even imagine to throw in being sick into all of that.

Seriously really intense. So as you were starting to say, maybe you can start this sort of part of the story over, how did you then find out about Operation Light Force? Are you cool with saying their actual names?

Seriously really intense. So as you were starting to say, maybe you can start this sort of part of the story over, how did you then find out about Operation Light Force? Are you cool with saying their actual names?

I am cool?

I am cool?

Yes, Okay, how did you I'll say it again. Then how did you come upon Operation Light Force?

Yes, Okay, how did you I'll say it again. Then how did you come upon Operation Light Force?

Well, my brother had gone to a summertime youth group my I believe it was my junior year of undergraduate, and I had gone home for the summer and was laid up in bed being depressed for some reason.

Well, my brother had gone to a summertime youth group my I believe it was my junior year of undergraduate, and I had gone home for the summer and was laid up in bed being depressed for some reason.

I can't imagine why, why would you ever be?

I can't imagine why, why would you ever be?

Oh, I was really like bumbing people out for some reason. I don't know why that is. And he came up to my room and he was like, Caitlin, all you do is like lay around. Come sit in the car with me at least and like see some foliage as we drive by. And I forgot my backpack at camp, Like drive with me to go get my backpack at camp. And I said fine, because I love my younger brother, so uh I, you know, shout out to my younger brother if you hear this. We did it, bug, we got out. Oh my gosh, you know we were both in it together. Yeah. Oops sorry, So oops you're bad.

Oh, I was really like bumbing people out for some reason. I don't know why that is. And he came up to my room and he was like, Caitlin, all you do is like lay around. Come sit in the car with me at least and like see some foliage as we drive by. And I forgot my backpack at camp, Like drive with me to go get my backpack at camp. And I said fine, because I love my younger brother, so uh I, you know, shout out to my younger brother if you hear this. We did it, bug, we got out. Oh my gosh, you know we were both in it together. Yeah. Oops sorry, So oops you're bad.

Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly exactly your fault.

Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly exactly your fault.

Your fault.

Your fault.

No, he feels bad about it, but so he We wander back into like this convention center thick, old red carpeted like hall, and we find his backpack, but there seems to be like another worship service already happening, and I'm like, okay, let's not interrupt, like let's grab your backpack and go. And we kind of glance over and he's like, oh, I know those guys. They like led some sort of like little interim service for us once during our youth camp, Like they're kind of chill, you want to go poke your head? And I was like, no, know those guys and he was like no, no, they're really cool. Like I talked to them like let's just go poke our heads, and so I was like okay, and we went and kind of poked our heads in and it was in mind on first impression, a group of mostly middle aged people, very charismatic for my Christian raising group of people singing and dancing and praising and worshiping, and they've got like banners and ribbons and things. I'm just not used to that, Like, that is not how my group of people worshiped God at all. We stood in pewes and we had our hymndals or we read off of PowerPoint slide projectories and we stood still or maybe did a taste, so a little back and forth and that's all. But they were like they were going for the Olympics.

No, he feels bad about it, but so he We wander back into like this convention center thick, old red carpeted like hall, and we find his backpack, but there seems to be like another worship service already happening, and I'm like, okay, let's not interrupt, like let's grab your backpack and go. And we kind of glance over and he's like, oh, I know those guys. They like led some sort of like little interim service for us once during our youth camp, Like they're kind of chill, you want to go poke your head? And I was like, no, know those guys and he was like no, no, they're really cool. Like I talked to them like let's just go poke our heads, and so I was like okay, and we went and kind of poked our heads in and it was in mind on first impression, a group of mostly middle aged people, very charismatic for my Christian raising group of people singing and dancing and praising and worshiping, and they've got like banners and ribbons and things. I'm just not used to that, Like, that is not how my group of people worshiped God at all. We stood in pewes and we had our hymndals or we read off of PowerPoint slide projectories and we stood still or maybe did a taste, so a little back and forth and that's all. But they were like they were going for the Olympics.

They were raving.

They were raving.

They were like used car sales, new lan in front.

They were like used car sales, new lan in front.

Of the cow. That sounds fun as all.

Of the cow. That sounds fun as all.

Yeah, they were like joyful and they turned around and saw us and instantly just like kind of set upon us with these huge hugs and soles and they're like, we're so glad you're here. And they're like who is this and he's like this is my sister and they're just like oh, and all the women come around me and they're like, oh, you're so beautiful, you're so radiant, like like would you love to stay and like worship with us? And I was just like whoa wow. But at the same time they seemed so genuine and so sweet and so warm, and I'd never seen anything like this before, and it was it was a little on. I'm not gonna tell you it wasn't a little on, like the dancing and the waving and stuff, but it felt nice to be like complimented and stuff. And I never you know, I hadn't heard of doctor Hassan's bite model yet, Like I didn't have done all of my studying. I didn't know what love bombing was. So I was like, these are and I was going through I was a teenager. I was going through kind of a rough go with my parents, as all teenagers kind of do with religious trauma, especially, so I was having a tough time with my parents. These are essentially pseudo parent substitutes who all tell me that I'm gorgeous and beautiful and perfect and want to give me big hugs. So I'm like, OK, yeah, I'll come and.

Yeah, they were like joyful and they turned around and saw us and instantly just like kind of set upon us with these huge hugs and soles and they're like, we're so glad you're here. And they're like who is this and he's like this is my sister and they're just like oh, and all the women come around me and they're like, oh, you're so beautiful, you're so radiant, like like would you love to stay and like worship with us? And I was just like whoa wow. But at the same time they seemed so genuine and so sweet and so warm, and I'd never seen anything like this before, and it was it was a little on. I'm not gonna tell you it wasn't a little on, like the dancing and the waving and stuff, but it felt nice to be like complimented and stuff. And I never you know, I hadn't heard of doctor Hassan's bite model yet, Like I didn't have done all of my studying. I didn't know what love bombing was. So I was like, these are and I was going through I was a teenager. I was going through kind of a rough go with my parents, as all teenagers kind of do with religious trauma, especially, so I was having a tough time with my parents. These are essentially pseudo parent substitutes who all tell me that I'm gorgeous and beautiful and perfect and want to give me big hugs. So I'm like, OK, yeah, I'll come and.

Get hug show. Yeah. How many how many of them were there?

Get hug show. Yeah. How many how many of them were there?

Oh goodness? In total maybe at that worship service, like twenty twenty five uh. And they were just playing acoustic guitar, going for it, and over the course of the evening, like they broke into a little small group and they did like a Bible study, and they did like prophetic word, which I'd never heard or experienced before either, which essentially equated to them saying like, since you're a special guest, like we'll do it for you. We're gonna ask God if he has any words about or for you and about your future. And they all kind of went around in a circle, and I was like, you guys are gonna make everything just about me, and you're gonna ask God about me, okay, Like if you want sure, I'll do fortune telling all right. And it was all this lovely mixture of like like God cherishes you and like he adores you and you're like his blessed daughter, and like there's powerful things for you to do in God's kingdom and like the enemy sees that, and like he's trying to like put this stronghold on your life, and like the enemy is coming really strong against you right now.

Oh goodness? In total maybe at that worship service, like twenty twenty five uh. And they were just playing acoustic guitar, going for it, and over the course of the evening, like they broke into a little small group and they did like a Bible study, and they did like prophetic word, which I'd never heard or experienced before either, which essentially equated to them saying like, since you're a special guest, like we'll do it for you. We're gonna ask God if he has any words about or for you and about your future. And they all kind of went around in a circle, and I was like, you guys are gonna make everything just about me, and you're gonna ask God about me, okay, Like if you want sure, I'll do fortune telling all right. And it was all this lovely mixture of like like God cherishes you and like he adores you and you're like his blessed daughter, and like there's powerful things for you to do in God's kingdom and like the enemy sees that, and like he's trying to like put this stronghold on your life, and like the enemy is coming really strong against you right now.

Is an enemy?

Is an enemy?

The enemy?

The enemy?

Yes?

Yes?

And I'm like he is, yeah, Like I have a lot of really bad shit going on right now. And they're like mm we can sense that. Yeah, Like the Holy Spirit's telling us that, like you Loven, and I'm like I do yeah.

And I'm like he is, yeah, Like I have a lot of really bad shit going on right now. And they're like mm we can sense that. Yeah, Like the Holy Spirit's telling us that, like you Loven, and I'm like I do yeah.

And wait, this is like multiple people saying this to you.

And wait, this is like multiple people saying this to you.

A group of women like, wow, it was broken up by gender, and my brother was kind of separated for me and the men were all doing that for him. So it's essentially this big like cold reading thing.

A group of women like, wow, it was broken up by gender, and my brother was kind of separated for me and the men were all doing that for him. So it's essentially this big like cold reading thing.

Yeah summer seriously Yeah yeah interesting.

Yeah summer seriously Yeah yeah interesting.

Yeah. And then at some point the leader kind of comes over to me and my brother introduces me to him and his name is Richard, which his name you can include.

Yeah. And then at some point the leader kind of comes over to me and my brother introduces me to him and his name is Richard, which his name you can include.

What's Richard like.

What's Richard like.

Richard Richard is or was? Then I haven't seen or spoken to him in years and likely will not not likely will not characters he in that moment was very soft and gentle and charming. He was not and is not an overly handsome man or an overly alluring man. I think he was just he's average looking, average height, average build, kind of dad body, middle aged, white hair. The most striking thing physically about him. I think he has nice blue eyes. But he has a very good speaking voice, and he had a good cadence and uh, he just had an air of authority about him and he was a prophet.

Richard Richard is or was? Then I haven't seen or spoken to him in years and likely will not not likely will not characters he in that moment was very soft and gentle and charming. He was not and is not an overly handsome man or an overly alluring man. I think he was just he's average looking, average height, average build, kind of dad body, middle aged, white hair. The most striking thing physically about him. I think he has nice blue eyes. But he has a very good speaking voice, and he had a good cadence and uh, he just had an air of authority about him and he was a prophet.

Did he describe himself as such? He did in that first meeting. Uh yeah, wow, that's the bold thing to Okay, I'm Richard, I'm a prophet.

Did he describe himself as such? He did in that first meeting. Uh yeah, wow, that's the bold thing to Okay, I'm Richard, I'm a prophet.

Yeah, But it got off a little easier because he's like, we're all prophets of God. He's just kind of using that as like we're all apostles of Jesus or something. So I was kind of like, he's not calling himself a prophet per se. But as we continued on him like, no, he's like capital the prophet.

Yeah, But it got off a little easier because he's like, we're all prophets of God. He's just kind of using that as like we're all apostles of Jesus or something. So I was kind of like, he's not calling himself a prophet per se. But as we continued on him like, no, he's like capital the prophet.

I mean, it's it's really interesting. I feel like this is such a cinematical way to end to a group, because normally you hear such a it's a lot slower, it's a lot more subtle, and it's a lot less immediate love bombing from like a group of people all at the same time. But you're like getting the you're getting like the fast track version of all of this.

I mean, it's it's really interesting. I feel like this is such a cinematical way to end to a group, because normally you hear such a it's a lot slower, it's a lot more subtle, and it's a lot less immediate love bombing from like a group of people all at the same time. But you're like getting the you're getting like the fast track version of all of this.

And the thing is is that it's still It was the combination for me, I think of looking back, the combination of I didn't have any people in my life for me to bounce this encounter off of for me to talk to and say, wasn't this weird?

And the thing is is that it's still It was the combination for me, I think of looking back, the combination of I didn't have any people in my life for me to bounce this encounter off of for me to talk to and say, wasn't this weird?

Except your brother who already knew them and liked exactly.

Except your brother who already knew them and liked exactly.

Like my parents. I didn't really mention it too other than yeah, I met some people worshiping at Max Youth Camp and they're like, yeah, of course people were worshiping in Max Youth Camp, Like obviously that's what they do there, right, But like I at that time was really isolated and I didn't really have a lot of friends at school, and I was I had untreated depression because of the Chrome's disease and a lot of other stuff like depression and anxiety are comorbidities of Chrome's disease and a lot of other autoimmune disorders, and like mine are in like super well treated now, and I'm feeling fantastic in that regard therapy amazing, it works, fantastic. Everybody, go do it if you're able to, but like if it like because of that too, I was just like kind of isolating myself, and I just the combination of that isolation and the desperation of like my circumstances, I just kind of fell right in. And when they looked me in the eyes and they were like, you need help, don't you?

Like my parents. I didn't really mention it too other than yeah, I met some people worshiping at Max Youth Camp and they're like, yeah, of course people were worshiping in Max Youth Camp, Like obviously that's what they do there, right, But like I at that time was really isolated and I didn't really have a lot of friends at school, and I was I had untreated depression because of the Chrome's disease and a lot of other stuff like depression and anxiety are comorbidities of Chrome's disease and a lot of other autoimmune disorders, and like mine are in like super well treated now, and I'm feeling fantastic in that regard therapy amazing, it works, fantastic. Everybody, go do it if you're able to, but like if it like because of that too, I was just like kind of isolating myself, and I just the combination of that isolation and the desperation of like my circumstances, I just kind of fell right in. And when they looked me in the eyes and they were like, you need help, don't you?

I was just like yes, And what are the odds that the one time you leave the house this happens?

I was just like yes, And what are the odds that the one time you leave the house this happens?

Right? It felt like just my luck at that point, But also it feels like a time, like a miracle. I have email correspondents back and forth setting up scheduling appointments with them, because after that, their offer to me was like, how do we see you again? And I was like, well, I don't know, how do I see you guys again? Wandering we're shipping people, you know that of song and Ribbon. They were like, well, Richard thought that I could benefit from receiving some counseling. And I was like, oh, like therapy. And he's like, we call it counseling ministry because they legally can't call it therapy because it's not what it is. That's not right. And I've actually checked their website since then and they when I enrolled in, it was called counseling. They've changed the language on their website since then to remove the word counseling as well. Now it's just called ministry. It's called like healing ministry or something like that, because they can't call it counseling either. For the better, I suppose, but no one should do it anyway.

Right? It felt like just my luck at that point, But also it feels like a time, like a miracle. I have email correspondents back and forth setting up scheduling appointments with them, because after that, their offer to me was like, how do we see you again? And I was like, well, I don't know, how do I see you guys again? Wandering we're shipping people, you know that of song and Ribbon. They were like, well, Richard thought that I could benefit from receiving some counseling. And I was like, oh, like therapy. And he's like, we call it counseling ministry because they legally can't call it therapy because it's not what it is. That's not right. And I've actually checked their website since then and they when I enrolled in, it was called counseling. They've changed the language on their website since then to remove the word counseling as well. Now it's just called ministry. It's called like healing ministry or something like that, because they can't call it counseling either. For the better, I suppose, but no one should do it anyway.

In hindsight, now, without giving too much away about where you end up hierarchically in this group, like was there was there some kind of like system or teaching about how to approach no people that you can now identify in the way that these women spoke to you.

In hindsight, now, without giving too much away about where you end up hierarchically in this group, like was there was there some kind of like system or teaching about how to approach no people that you can now identify in the way that these women spoke to you.

What's interesting is, no, there was never anything so overt as that. And that's the thing to this moment that I still believe is that I don't think that the people at the level that I ended up at, at the very least, we're doing anything with malicious intention. I don't think that it was go out and you need to hit this many numbers today. And that's kind of the insidious thing about it, unfortunately, because I definitely did that to people. I definitely love bombed people, and I didn't know that that's what I was doing. I one hundred percent cold red people again in a way. But like it wasn't taught to me, like this is how you do it, this is how you make it convincing, this is how many people. It was just this is how you love someone in a godly way, and me are your spiritual gifts, and this is how you act godly and if you are a godly Christian and if you're in this group, this is how you should act kind of behavior.

What's interesting is, no, there was never anything so overt as that. And that's the thing to this moment that I still believe is that I don't think that the people at the level that I ended up at, at the very least, we're doing anything with malicious intention. I don't think that it was go out and you need to hit this many numbers today. And that's kind of the insidious thing about it, unfortunately, because I definitely did that to people. I definitely love bombed people, and I didn't know that that's what I was doing. I one hundred percent cold red people again in a way. But like it wasn't taught to me, like this is how you do it, this is how you make it convincing, this is how many people. It was just this is how you love someone in a godly way, and me are your spiritual gifts, and this is how you act godly and if you are a godly Christian and if you're in this group, this is how you should act kind of behavior.

Right, It's more implicit than that. Yeah, Okay, that's that's interesting. I mean it makes I think generally most people who are like recruiting it like, are still believing they're doing the right thing, and you know, like even when they are taught in a more explicit way. But it sounds like these women were just like, we must be godly towards this precious young girl who clearly needs our help.

Right, It's more implicit than that. Yeah, Okay, that's that's interesting. I mean it makes I think generally most people who are like recruiting it like, are still believing they're doing the right thing, and you know, like even when they are taught in a more explicit way. But it sounds like these women were just like, we must be godly towards this precious young girl who clearly needs our help.

I do think at least the majority of them, right, I think there there may have been a few, I think who were in for lack of a better term, like the higher echelons, who may have been more aware of what they were doing.

I do think at least the majority of them, right, I think there there may have been a few, I think who were in for lack of a better term, like the higher echelons, who may have been more aware of what they were doing.

But that's always there was always a few. It's always a few, but not most, not most of them, I would, I would estimate. But you mentioned traveling, So was this a group that's like traveling around? Like, what's the situation?

But that's always there was always a few. It's always a few, but not most, not most of them, I would, I would estimate. But you mentioned traveling, So was this a group that's like traveling around? Like, what's the situation?

So they were slightly itinerant insomuch as they did not have a church building, sort of to your earlier question, they did not have one church building. They met in people's homes or anywhere that would have them. Their whole stance was we need to get back to the true scriptural church. We need to meet in smaller groups in people's houses and homes and less flamboyantly. Ironically, we meet kind of as the original Church of Christ met, like the original apostles would have met. So we mostly met in people's houses at first, and we did kind of have a little boom there for a minute and then dwindled back down there again. Athy, we have our numbers fluxuary. Right.

So they were slightly itinerant insomuch as they did not have a church building, sort of to your earlier question, they did not have one church building. They met in people's homes or anywhere that would have them. Their whole stance was we need to get back to the true scriptural church. We need to meet in smaller groups in people's houses and homes and less flamboyantly. Ironically, we meet kind of as the original Church of Christ met, like the original apostles would have met. So we mostly met in people's houses at first, and we did kind of have a little boom there for a minute and then dwindled back down there again. Athy, we have our numbers fluxuary. Right.

So all right, so you get this message saying you're supposed to he wants you to do counseling with him. So what does that mean to you and how do you feel about it at that point?

So all right, so you get this message saying you're supposed to he wants you to do counseling with him. So what does that mean to you and how do you feel about it at that point?

At that point, I was ecstatic because when I heard the word counseling, I thought therapy, and I'd always been told and heard therapy is a good thing, and I thought that I needed it especially well, I just thought that I needed it. I recognized that I was probably anxious. And I had heard the word depression for the first time in undergraduate from like roommates who were like, hey, I think you might have depression, And I was like, what is that? So because yeah, so I was like what is that? And she's like, you should look it up on the internet. I think you might have that. Jesus. Jesus says, you don't have that stuff. I'm pretty sure, so I know. But so I was. I was excited, I thought, finally and a godly therapist too, how grand, So they won't teach you any of that bad evolutionary therapy or whatever it is.

At that point, I was ecstatic because when I heard the word counseling, I thought therapy, and I'd always been told and heard therapy is a good thing, and I thought that I needed it especially well, I just thought that I needed it. I recognized that I was probably anxious. And I had heard the word depression for the first time in undergraduate from like roommates who were like, hey, I think you might have depression, And I was like, what is that? So because yeah, so I was like what is that? And she's like, you should look it up on the internet. I think you might have that. Jesus. Jesus says, you don't have that stuff. I'm pretty sure, so I know. But so I was. I was excited, I thought, finally and a godly therapist too, how grand, So they won't teach you any of that bad evolutionary therapy or whatever it is.

Right, group's kind of one, right, right? And did you at that, like, did you already think that there was something special about him?

Right, group's kind of one, right, right? And did you at that, like, did you already think that there was something special about him?

Specifically absolutely after the first night. I mean, he emerged between a crowd of people with an acoustic guitar and looked me in the eye. But that I was a beautiful, perfect angel who God told him was a beautiful, perfect angel.

Specifically absolutely after the first night. I mean, he emerged between a crowd of people with an acoustic guitar and looked me in the eye. But that I was a beautiful, perfect angel who God told him was a beautiful, perfect angel.

I was like, God said that about me with his blue eyes, I'd be done. Yeah.

I was like, God said that about me with his blue eyes, I'd be done. Yeah.

He was essentially like a substitute father figure who had a direct line to Jesus. And Jesus also said that I was cool after like, my God, nineteen years of me worrying that I was blowing everything in regards to my Christian walk and that I actually wasn't even saved because the whole stand at the door and knock, and then Jesus says, actually, I don't even know who you are. Back up, Like, I was so worried that whole time.

He was essentially like a substitute father figure who had a direct line to Jesus. And Jesus also said that I was cool after like, my God, nineteen years of me worrying that I was blowing everything in regards to my Christian walk and that I actually wasn't even saved because the whole stand at the door and knock, and then Jesus says, actually, I don't even know who you are. Back up, Like, I was so worried that whole time.

So I was like.

So I was like.

Instantly, Yeah, this man says I can help you solve all your problems. And God, right, God wants to help you, God wants to heal you. I'm like I thought, even emotionally at that point, but I.

Instantly, Yeah, this man says I can help you solve all your problems. And God, right, God wants to help you, God wants to heal you. I'm like I thought, even emotionally at that point, but I.

Was like still on, yes, please bring right on.

Was like still on, yes, please bring right on.

M H.

M H.

And So tell us about those first counseling quote and quotation marks counseling sessions.

And So tell us about those first counseling quote and quotation marks counseling sessions.

Well, the first counseling sessions were long. They were long. It's the first thing I remember. They lasted like two to four hours at the beginning. Wow.

Well, the first counseling sessions were long. They were long. It's the first thing I remember. They lasted like two to four hours at the beginning. Wow.

Yeah, and you're sick.

Yeah, and you're sick.

Yeah I was sick.

Yeah I was sick.

Wow.

Wow.

So that was one thing and I always remember that that was a little odd, but I didn't really have anything to measure that against, so I was like, maybe therapy just takes a long time. They were free, which was good, but they did always stress me like we usually charge people for this, just so you know. And I was like, okay, so like are you going to start charging me at some point? Like should I be aware of that? And they're like no, just just so you know. And I was like, so I shouldn't like recommend it to people or like why are you telling me this?