Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep this in mind when and where you choose to listen to these episodes. Last episode, we've finished our exploration of the Christian Griggs case and also shared some resources for those of you who would like to support the Griggs family in their search for justice. On this episode, I'm going to be chatting with two people directly connected to our cases this season. First, I'll be speaking with Christian's sister Crystal about her experience living through her brother's death, as well as more ways you can support the Griggs family as they put pressure on Harnett County and the state of North Carolina. Then, I'm going to be speaking with Scott Pogancy from the Brandon WOODRUF case, who shares not only updates about where the case currently stands, but how Brandon is due. Today I'm Hillary Burton Morgan, and this is true crime story It Couldn't Happen Here. Hi, you guys, welcome to another episode of It Couldn't Happen Here the podcast. I have a guest today that I personally, am really excited to talk to because we've never been able to speak face to face before. I'm with Crystal, Christian Greg's sister, and we only ever spoke on the phone when I was at your parents' house. And so for our audience, if you could tell us a little bit about your background and where you're from, just so you know they have a sense of who you are outside of this story.

Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep this in mind when and where you choose to listen to these episodes. Last episode, we've finished our exploration of the Christian Griggs case and also shared some resources for those of you who would like to support the Griggs family in their search for justice. On this episode, I'm going to be chatting with two people directly connected to our cases this season. First, I'll be speaking with Christian's sister Crystal about her experience living through her brother's death, as well as more ways you can support the Griggs family as they put pressure on Harnett County and the state of North Carolina. Then, I'm going to be speaking with Scott Pogancy from the Brandon WOODRUF case, who shares not only updates about where the case currently stands, but how Brandon is due. Today I'm Hillary Burton Morgan, and this is true crime story It Couldn't Happen Here. Hi, you guys, welcome to another episode of It Couldn't Happen Here the podcast. I have a guest today that I personally, am really excited to talk to because we've never been able to speak face to face before. I'm with Crystal, Christian Greg's sister, and we only ever spoke on the phone when I was at your parents' house. And so for our audience, if you could tell us a little bit about your background and where you're from, just so you know they have a sense of who you are outside of this story.

Yeah, it's great to be able to finally have someone here. My perspective, from a sister's point of view, I feel like that doesn't happen often, so kind of starting from growing up wise, I was always known as Christian Griggs little sister. I don't think I ever developed my own personal like self until he was like out of school, honestly. So, I even remember growing up in middle school, especially because he was popular and soccer star and all of these things, and it was like, oh, yeah, you're Christian Gregg's little sister.

Yeah, it's great to be able to finally have someone here. My perspective, from a sister's point of view, I feel like that doesn't happen often, so kind of starting from growing up wise, I was always known as Christian Griggs little sister. I don't think I ever developed my own personal like self until he was like out of school, honestly. So, I even remember growing up in middle school, especially because he was popular and soccer star and all of these things, and it was like, oh, yeah, you're Christian Gregg's little sister.

Every teacher, every kid.

Every teacher, every kid.

I had all of the same teachers, his friends, their siblings were my friends. So it very much was that like small town feel, you know, where it's like everyone knows everyone, Everyone knew Christian, everyone loved Christian and so it always felt like I had just these really big shoes to fill, and I in a way enjoyed that because it was kind of easy. Like I felt like, as a little sister, it could be better. He was great, you know, he was smart, and so all of the people expected that from me to I just think growing up, we had this fun upbringing that you didn't have to like really stress because we were protected, we were loved, we were cared for.

I had all of the same teachers, his friends, their siblings were my friends. So it very much was that like small town feel, you know, where it's like everyone knows everyone, Everyone knew Christian, everyone loved Christian and so it always felt like I had just these really big shoes to fill, and I in a way enjoyed that because it was kind of easy. Like I felt like, as a little sister, it could be better. He was great, you know, he was smart, and so all of the people expected that from me to I just think growing up, we had this fun upbringing that you didn't have to like really stress because we were protected, we were loved, we were cared for.

Yeah, I mean your parents. I fell for your parents. The second I walked into your parents' home. It was like go into a you know when you go to your friend's parents' house, and like you're able to just walk in and go into the refrigerator and hang out and sit on the couch. Your parents are so warm. Even after this whole experience, your mother has applauded everything I've done in the year and a half since I've met them. You know, like when your parents pick someone, it feels like it's for life, and it feels so lovely. And the thing that struck me was that it was so clear what pillars of the community your family was.

Yeah, I mean your parents. I fell for your parents. The second I walked into your parents' home. It was like go into a you know when you go to your friend's parents' house, and like you're able to just walk in and go into the refrigerator and hang out and sit on the couch. Your parents are so warm. Even after this whole experience, your mother has applauded everything I've done in the year and a half since I've met them. You know, like when your parents pick someone, it feels like it's for life, and it feels so lovely. And the thing that struck me was that it was so clear what pillars of the community your family was.

Yes, and you know, my dad A lot of people don't understand too, is that he's also military, like active duty, so like his ability to you know, show up for us but also do those things, Like I don't think sometimes people understand like the magnitude of that.

Yes, and you know, my dad A lot of people don't understand too, is that he's also military, like active duty, so like his ability to you know, show up for us but also do those things, Like I don't think sometimes people understand like the magnitude of that.

To be able to emotionally carry both that really dark stuff and really light stuff for your children is that's a huge feat exactly.

To be able to emotionally carry both that really dark stuff and really light stuff for your children is that's a huge feat exactly.

Yes, And so you know, now that I'm a parent myself too, I see that the ability to do that is really special and not a lot of people have that capacity. But yes, growing up it just brings like the biggest smile to my face all the time because we had literally the best upbringing. It's what truly made me so excited to have my own family one day. And even still to this day, my friends call my mom Dolly girl because she has been there for my friends and their kids. But like I do think that pivotal moment in my life was when Christian died. I had almost like this naive trust in people to just inherently do the right thing. So you grow up thinking that's what the world is like, and then this happened with Christian and I realized that, like, wait, that's not how the world works, that's not Unfortunately, you know, I thought Patchies and Hall would go to jail, and I just remember that moment when I found out he didn't, and my entire world changed in that moment.

Yes, And so you know, now that I'm a parent myself too, I see that the ability to do that is really special and not a lot of people have that capacity. But yes, growing up it just brings like the biggest smile to my face all the time because we had literally the best upbringing. It's what truly made me so excited to have my own family one day. And even still to this day, my friends call my mom Dolly girl because she has been there for my friends and their kids. But like I do think that pivotal moment in my life was when Christian died. I had almost like this naive trust in people to just inherently do the right thing. So you grow up thinking that's what the world is like, and then this happened with Christian and I realized that, like, wait, that's not how the world works, that's not Unfortunately, you know, I thought Patchies and Hall would go to jail, and I just remember that moment when I found out he didn't, and my entire world changed in that moment.

And you have now watched the story of your family play out in a couple different mediums. You know, obviously we're in the podcast right now. We did the TV episode, but if you could take me back to the first coverage of what happened to Christian and what that felt like to have your family on TV and how they were depicted.

And you have now watched the story of your family play out in a couple different mediums. You know, obviously we're in the podcast right now. We did the TV episode, but if you could take me back to the first coverage of what happened to Christian and what that felt like to have your family on TV and how they were depicted.

So when it first happened, it's just so hard to see someone else write something about your family who was not there, right, So I think that's always first the most difficult part because even now I'm sharing with you, like all of the things that Christian was and then our family was and still is, and then they write a news article that doesn't match those things whatsoever. So I remember exactly when it first happened. We had just left the hospital, Christian had passed away, We already said goodbye all of that, and then we drove back home, which is probably the quietest moment of my eyes still can like feel and hear, just because I remember we were driving down the road and like you could hear just like every little bump under the tire, like every little like piece of groul or anything that you drove over, because it's like what do you say to each other?

So when it first happened, it's just so hard to see someone else write something about your family who was not there, right, So I think that's always first the most difficult part because even now I'm sharing with you, like all of the things that Christian was and then our family was and still is, and then they write a news article that doesn't match those things whatsoever. So I remember exactly when it first happened. We had just left the hospital, Christian had passed away, We already said goodbye all of that, and then we drove back home, which is probably the quietest moment of my eyes still can like feel and hear, just because I remember we were driving down the road and like you could hear just like every little bump under the tire, like every little like piece of groul or anything that you drove over, because it's like what do you say to each other?

You know?

You know?

And I think a lot of people don't even think about those moments that like we had this really traumatic thing happen and then we, you know, just we're driving back from the hospital and we haven't even processed that he's gone. And I remember we all that night, me and my dad and my mom sat on this little couch in our bonus room all together and we all slept there all night because we it was like none of us knew what to do, none of us knew what to say, but we just felt like we needed to be together. And so then the next morning I woke up with a bajillion text of what happened. And this is before I've even said anything. Yeah, and then I go and I look at the news article and there's this big article and it says pastor kills son in law and self defense. So that is the first thing that I saw, and I remember that is the moment that I lost complete faith in Harnett County. Honestly, how old were you. I was nineteen when it happened. I just happened to be on fall break and I had just seen Christian the night before. I remember seeing that news article and I'm like, what, Like, how is that self defense? That was my first thing? And then I'm reading through the article and all I see are people interviewed on the Chisenhall side saying that this is what he had to do, he was protecting his home, all of these things, and not a single one of us had been spoken to.

And I think a lot of people don't even think about those moments that like we had this really traumatic thing happen and then we, you know, just we're driving back from the hospital and we haven't even processed that he's gone. And I remember we all that night, me and my dad and my mom sat on this little couch in our bonus room all together and we all slept there all night because we it was like none of us knew what to do, none of us knew what to say, but we just felt like we needed to be together. And so then the next morning I woke up with a bajillion text of what happened. And this is before I've even said anything. Yeah, and then I go and I look at the news article and there's this big article and it says pastor kills son in law and self defense. So that is the first thing that I saw, and I remember that is the moment that I lost complete faith in Harnett County. Honestly, how old were you. I was nineteen when it happened. I just happened to be on fall break and I had just seen Christian the night before. I remember seeing that news article and I'm like, what, Like, how is that self defense? That was my first thing? And then I'm reading through the article and all I see are people interviewed on the Chisenhall side saying that this is what he had to do, he was protecting his home, all of these things, and not a single one of us had been spoken to.

Nobody had reached out to you guys.

Nobody had reached out to you guys.

No one reached out to us. There was no interview, and it was simply posted that way the next day, one sided, and that was the very first bit of information that was put out there. And from that moment on is when we knew that we had a battle that we were going to have to fight. And at this point, we didn't even have all of the things that we have now, right, Like, we hadn't even gotten all of the like anything that had really happened that day. This is literally just the next day. So the fact that there's even a news article on it was mind blown. And so I just knew from that moment it was just going to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately.

No one reached out to us. There was no interview, and it was simply posted that way the next day, one sided, and that was the very first bit of information that was put out there. And from that moment on is when we knew that we had a battle that we were going to have to fight. And at this point, we didn't even have all of the things that we have now, right, Like, we hadn't even gotten all of the like anything that had really happened that day. This is literally just the next day. So the fact that there's even a news article on it was mind blown. And so I just knew from that moment it was just going to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately.

Yeah, I mean, at this point, your family has to be their own lawyer, investigator, publicis, you know, pr person. There's just so many roles that a family has to take on, and it is so much harder when there's misinformation put out there.

Yeah, I mean, at this point, your family has to be their own lawyer, investigator, publicis, you know, pr person. There's just so many roles that a family has to take on, and it is so much harder when there's misinformation put out there.

Exactly like Christian's character was being just demolished. We knew that we had to do something. So that's actually where the Justice for Christian page that we have now originated was in twenty thirteen, when that news article came out, I told my mom, I'm like, let's start a Facebook page. And you know, looking at it now to what it's become now, it's great, but it's been I remember the first messages we were getting were just people defending Patches in Hall.

Exactly like Christian's character was being just demolished. We knew that we had to do something. So that's actually where the Justice for Christian page that we have now originated was in twenty thirteen, when that news article came out, I told my mom, I'm like, let's start a Facebook page. And you know, looking at it now to what it's become now, it's great, but it's been I remember the first messages we were getting were just people defending Patches in Hall.

When tragedy happens, sometimes I think it's easier if you don't know the person behind it, because then you can chalk it up to the universe being terrible. You know, when you know the person who did it, it is just such a complicated layer. And so as this news coverage unfolds and Patches in Hall is being painted as the pillar of the community, when you know very well that your parents are how do you even go to the supermarket after that? How do you move about the community without wanting to light everything on fire? I mean I would have lost my mind.

When tragedy happens, sometimes I think it's easier if you don't know the person behind it, because then you can chalk it up to the universe being terrible. You know, when you know the person who did it, it is just such a complicated layer. And so as this news coverage unfolds and Patches in Hall is being painted as the pillar of the community, when you know very well that your parents are how do you even go to the supermarket after that? How do you move about the community without wanting to light everything on fire? I mean I would have lost my mind.

You know, I grew up there. I have still a lot of like childhood friends there, and it created this sense of I cannot trust anyone here. You know, really struggle for a long time because I have these childhood friends who are friends with their family, you know. And then you are looking at news articles and you see comments and you see like, oh that's so and so's parent like and they're praising Pat for doing what he did. It kind of became this game of like whose side are you on? I felt like, like what type of connection do you have to their family? And so even now, you know, I when I go to visit my parents' house, I have to pass directly past that house where Christian died, and I have to I have seen patches and hall out on his front porch. You know, it's just like and my parents do too. It takes another level of just like self control to like because you have to like trust in a system that just hasn't been working unfortunately for our family.

You know, I grew up there. I have still a lot of like childhood friends there, and it created this sense of I cannot trust anyone here. You know, really struggle for a long time because I have these childhood friends who are friends with their family, you know. And then you are looking at news articles and you see comments and you see like, oh that's so and so's parent like and they're praising Pat for doing what he did. It kind of became this game of like whose side are you on? I felt like, like what type of connection do you have to their family? And so even now, you know, I when I go to visit my parents' house, I have to pass directly past that house where Christian died, and I have to I have seen patches and hall out on his front porch. You know, it's just like and my parents do too. It takes another level of just like self control to like because you have to like trust in a system that just hasn't been working unfortunately for our family.

Let's talk about the system then, because you you know, you're betrayed by this relationship with the Chisenhalls. You're betrayed by local law enforcement that decides not to press charges. You're betrayed by the local media who starts telling a narrative that you know not to be true. What is this next step with the civil trial? You know, how did the media react to your family making this move?

Let's talk about the system then, because you you know, you're betrayed by this relationship with the Chisenhalls. You're betrayed by local law enforcement that decides not to press charges. You're betrayed by the local media who starts telling a narrative that you know not to be true. What is this next step with the civil trial? You know, how did the media react to your family making this move?

The civil trial to this day, I believe was the most pivotal point of this case. That is where all of the information that we have known was finally forced to be put out, so you know, all of the things that you share, all of the inconsistencies were finally laid out for everyone to see, and that I believe is where the opinions started to shift. That civil trial was covered way differently by the media. They finally had, you know, access to information that they didn't have access to before, and it finally put the big question mark in is the self defense? And so that is where we started to begin to see not only the shift in the media, but the shift in people's opinions as well. People were like, wait, we didn't have this piece of information like this definitely makes it different, you know, and so I do believe that the coverage during that time time made the difference.

The civil trial to this day, I believe was the most pivotal point of this case. That is where all of the information that we have known was finally forced to be put out, so you know, all of the things that you share, all of the inconsistencies were finally laid out for everyone to see, and that I believe is where the opinions started to shift. That civil trial was covered way differently by the media. They finally had, you know, access to information that they didn't have access to before, and it finally put the big question mark in is the self defense? And so that is where we started to begin to see not only the shift in the media, but the shift in people's opinions as well. People were like, wait, we didn't have this piece of information like this definitely makes it different, you know, and so I do believe that the coverage during that time time made the difference.

Honestly, you've got the media who knew they covered it incorrectly and then said, hold up, sorry, let's shed some more light on this. We're gonna self correct. And they didn't have to do that, and they did, and it's a great example of how all systems should work. Self correction is so important. And what's really troubling is that local law enforcement did the exact opposite. All the cards were put out on the table and it was an opportunity for them to say, oh god, we missed this, you know, we missed the mark, and instead they doubled down.

Honestly, you've got the media who knew they covered it incorrectly and then said, hold up, sorry, let's shed some more light on this. We're gonna self correct. And they didn't have to do that, and they did, and it's a great example of how all systems should work. Self correction is so important. And what's really troubling is that local law enforcement did the exact opposite. All the cards were put out on the table and it was an opportunity for them to say, oh god, we missed this, you know, we missed the mark, and instead they doubled down.

M h exactly. But the fact that they've had so much pushback I think has made them double down because they realized that, like, now, there's been so many mistakes, how do we come back from this? But it takes one person to do the right thing to say we've made a lot of mistakes here and can't let this continue.

M h exactly. But the fact that they've had so much pushback I think has made them double down because they realized that, like, now, there's been so many mistakes, how do we come back from this? But it takes one person to do the right thing to say we've made a lot of mistakes here and can't let this continue.

And so your family, you know, has kind of gotten whiplashed from local media where it's so bad. But then the coverage is actually like very helpful and great when a show like ours comes along and law enforcement has doubled down. What was the conversation that you had with your parents when you're like, these total strangers who aren't from here have reached out and want to get involved.

And so your family, you know, has kind of gotten whiplashed from local media where it's so bad. But then the coverage is actually like very helpful and great when a show like ours comes along and law enforcement has doubled down. What was the conversation that you had with your parents when you're like, these total strangers who aren't from here have reached out and want to get involved.

I remember this very well. I remember the conversation when my mom actually brought it to me and was like, there is a show. It's called it couldn't happen here. She's like, nothing is, you know, officially yet, but they are wanting to do a story on you know, Christian, And I immediately said, I don't think it's a good idea.

I remember this very well. I remember the conversation when my mom actually brought it to me and was like, there is a show. It's called it couldn't happen here. She's like, nothing is, you know, officially yet, but they are wanting to do a story on you know, Christian, And I immediately said, I don't think it's a good idea.

Honestly, it feels bad to reopen the wounds. And I marvel at the families that come on our show.

Honestly, it feels bad to reopen the wounds. And I marvel at the families that come on our show.

Yeah, and you know, I told my mom I I guess I on't say I was officially like no. I was extremely cautious because of how I've seen the media portray Christian and some of the stories that I've read, and I just felt like, you know, I don't know what is this gonna do, you know? And I'm also I've been hesitant about anything, you know, true crime things like that, just.

Yeah, and you know, I told my mom I I guess I on't say I was officially like no. I was extremely cautious because of how I've seen the media portray Christian and some of the stories that I've read, and I just felt like, you know, I don't know what is this gonna do, you know? And I'm also I've been hesitant about anything, you know, true crime things like that, just.

Because yeah, it's predatory and it.

Because yeah, it's predatory and it.

Can be Yeah, and I think people really are about sometimes this is your story and we're gonna put it out there, and then it's like, Okay, you've put everything out there about us and then left us to what.

Can be Yeah, and I think people really are about sometimes this is your story and we're gonna put it out there, and then it's like, Okay, you've put everything out there about us and then left us to what.

You know, you have to fight all the comments on the message boards yourself.

You know, you have to fight all the comments on the message boards yourself.

Now exactly exactly. And I have been more about like, let's advocate for Christian Let's do what matters, Let's you know, put out petitions, let's talk to officials, let's go behind you know. I don't think I realized the fact that it needed, you know, this type of awareness spread to it, and I think I was just really hesitant. And then the more my mom talks to me about it and like the angle and the approach, I was still very cautious, but I felt a little more comfortable in the fact that like, Okay, this is going to put Christian story at the forefront of people's conversations. At least. I was just really thankful that we did, though, because I have seen how one like it was just I felt like, you guys are about advocating and actually helping, you know, and actually doing something about it. You see the inconsistencies, and I think one quote that I've like really hung onto actually is at the beginning of the documentary how you say, it takes very little scratching, you know, of the surface of this case to see that things are not as they appear. And you know, I think the momentum in Christian Story has also given people, you know, even in Harnett County, courage to step up and speak about wrongs that were done to them. Christian Story has already been and is going to be something that I truly believe is going to change laws. That's what we're for. We need to change laws. Castle doctrine is one of them that I'm really passionate about. But I also think the biggest one has been this loophole in North Carolina where the District Attorney holds so much power. We need to get this case out of Harnett County, and we need to get the DA to release the case and allow it to be handed over.

Now exactly exactly. And I have been more about like, let's advocate for Christian Let's do what matters, Let's you know, put out petitions, let's talk to officials, let's go behind you know. I don't think I realized the fact that it needed, you know, this type of awareness spread to it, and I think I was just really hesitant. And then the more my mom talks to me about it and like the angle and the approach, I was still very cautious, but I felt a little more comfortable in the fact that like, Okay, this is going to put Christian story at the forefront of people's conversations. At least. I was just really thankful that we did, though, because I have seen how one like it was just I felt like, you guys are about advocating and actually helping, you know, and actually doing something about it. You see the inconsistencies, and I think one quote that I've like really hung onto actually is at the beginning of the documentary how you say, it takes very little scratching, you know, of the surface of this case to see that things are not as they appear. And you know, I think the momentum in Christian Story has also given people, you know, even in Harnett County, courage to step up and speak about wrongs that were done to them. Christian Story has already been and is going to be something that I truly believe is going to change laws. That's what we're for. We need to change laws. Castle doctrine is one of them that I'm really passionate about. But I also think the biggest one has been this loophole in North Carolina where the District Attorney holds so much power. We need to get this case out of Harnett County, and we need to get the DA to release the case and allow it to be handed over.

To you know, the a state agency.

To you know, the a state agency.

Yeah, just someone, just release it, relinquish it. And because of the power that the DA has, they're holding on to it and they don't want to give it to a different county. And because they hold that power, that is our biggest hold up. Like if they would just simply give the case to someone else and allow someone else to look at it, allow someone else to, you know, make the judgment call on what should be done. Not alone, you know, can make the biggest difference. But again they've doubled down because they realize that there's been a lot of mess ups here.

Yeah, just someone, just release it, relinquish it. And because of the power that the DA has, they're holding on to it and they don't want to give it to a different county. And because they hold that power, that is our biggest hold up. Like if they would just simply give the case to someone else and allow someone else to look at it, allow someone else to, you know, make the judgment call on what should be done. Not alone, you know, can make the biggest difference. But again they've doubled down because they realize that there's been a lot of mess ups here.

It's an uh oh situation.

It's an uh oh situation.

Exactly, and the district attorney who has the case now again has followed suit in the previous district attorney shoes to not do that, to not give the case up.

Exactly, and the district attorney who has the case now again has followed suit in the previous district attorney shoes to not do that, to not give the case up.

It's so frustrating because I've spoken to you know, I go down to North Carolina for conventions in Wilmington, and I've spoken to other lawyers that I'm friends with. I've spoken to private investigators that I know down in the Wilmington area, and I always talk about your brother's case, and they're baffled. I mean, people are baffled when they hear about it. And so I have to imagine it's really frustrating for law enforcement in Harnett County. That's just not going away. They just want it to go away. And so the more we talk about it, the better. I can't wait to get back down there and talk the Attorney General.

It's so frustrating because I've spoken to you know, I go down to North Carolina for conventions in Wilmington, and I've spoken to other lawyers that I'm friends with. I've spoken to private investigators that I know down in the Wilmington area, and I always talk about your brother's case, and they're baffled. I mean, people are baffled when they hear about it. And so I have to imagine it's really frustrating for law enforcement in Harnett County. That's just not going away. They just want it to go away. And so the more we talk about it, the better. I can't wait to get back down there and talk the Attorney General.

You know.

You know.

I mean, it just feels like if the right people know about it, surely someone will come in and save the day. And so for people who have not seen the television episode that we did, you know, what is the takeaway that you want people to move away from the episode or this podcast with What do you want them to carry with them into their day to day?

I mean, it just feels like if the right people know about it, surely someone will come in and save the day. And so for people who have not seen the television episode that we did, you know, what is the takeaway that you want people to move away from the episode or this podcast with What do you want them to carry with them into their day to day?

But I would really want people to first and foremost gather is that when you're listening to any of these stories, if there is anything in you that says this is so unfair and it bothers, you do something about it. I don't think people realize that they have the power to change, and I think sometimes we feel like we're alone in that or it's difficult to do. But like we have the ability to, like Christian's eighth grade teacher, you know, sending out a tweet that is why we're here today, and you know, it just takes one person to do the right thing. We're always going to continue advocating, We're always going to continue spreading awareness. But like if you know someone, if you want to talk to someone, if you even if it's just a conversation with a friend on a run and you're like, hey, I heard about this case and it bothers me talk to him about it. Second, I would say, put yourself in their shoes, realizing that this could very well be your fan and if this was your family, what would you do. And then the third thing I would say is that see in Christian's case, where you specifically can make a difference and take action, And where that comes is that the DA has to have pressure. The DA has to have pressure to give up that case. You know, That's where we have to be now, and no one can do anything, unfortunately, until she gives up that case. So we are working extremely hard to put any kind of pressure, you know, whether we've had people calling, we've had people emailing, We've had people showing up that I want to talk about it, We've had people protesting in front of the courthouse. You know, those small actions they make a difference.

But I would really want people to first and foremost gather is that when you're listening to any of these stories, if there is anything in you that says this is so unfair and it bothers, you do something about it. I don't think people realize that they have the power to change, and I think sometimes we feel like we're alone in that or it's difficult to do. But like we have the ability to, like Christian's eighth grade teacher, you know, sending out a tweet that is why we're here today, and you know, it just takes one person to do the right thing. We're always going to continue advocating, We're always going to continue spreading awareness. But like if you know someone, if you want to talk to someone, if you even if it's just a conversation with a friend on a run and you're like, hey, I heard about this case and it bothers me talk to him about it. Second, I would say, put yourself in their shoes, realizing that this could very well be your fan and if this was your family, what would you do. And then the third thing I would say is that see in Christian's case, where you specifically can make a difference and take action, And where that comes is that the DA has to have pressure. The DA has to have pressure to give up that case. You know, That's where we have to be now, and no one can do anything, unfortunately, until she gives up that case. So we are working extremely hard to put any kind of pressure, you know, whether we've had people calling, we've had people emailing, We've had people showing up that I want to talk about it, We've had people protesting in front of the courthouse. You know, those small actions they make a difference.

Absolutely, I mean, yes, they make a huge difference. And for me personally, I can say that after learning about this case, after meeting your parents, you you know, it becomes impossible to not get involved. And so I just want so badly for every single person who hears about this story to just roll up your sleeves, sign a letter, make a phone call. You know, if it's done in big enough numbers, we can actually create change.

Absolutely, I mean, yes, they make a huge difference. And for me personally, I can say that after learning about this case, after meeting your parents, you you know, it becomes impossible to not get involved. And so I just want so badly for every single person who hears about this story to just roll up your sleeves, sign a letter, make a phone call. You know, if it's done in big enough numbers, we can actually create change.

I think so many people can see themselves in a Christian. I think the one thing that gives me peace is that Christian lived a life that so many people don't have, Like he lived so much in such a short amount of time, like twenty three. He lost his life at twenty three, he was killed at twenty three. If you could just realize that this is actually someone's life, think that makes a really big difference, and that should be honestly anything that is about anyone's life, Like, don't detach yourself, don't disassociate from the fact that, like someone is living this. You know, I don't have my brother, my kids don't have their uncle. You know, that's going to continue on for the rest of our lives. And I just think people have to realize that.

I think so many people can see themselves in a Christian. I think the one thing that gives me peace is that Christian lived a life that so many people don't have, Like he lived so much in such a short amount of time, like twenty three. He lost his life at twenty three, he was killed at twenty three. If you could just realize that this is actually someone's life, think that makes a really big difference, and that should be honestly anything that is about anyone's life, Like, don't detach yourself, don't disassociate from the fact that, like someone is living this. You know, I don't have my brother, my kids don't have their uncle. You know, that's going to continue on for the rest of our lives. And I just think people have to realize that.

And so for people at home, what is the best resource for them to learn about Christian's case and get involved.

And so for people at home, what is the best resource for them to learn about Christian's case and get involved.

So we have the Justice for Christian Instagram page, and then we also have the Justice for Christian Facebook page. On the Instagram page, there is a link in the bio with like five or six different ways that you can take direct action. You can email local officials from there. It also has the phone numbers with a script, and the email is also a template. You can feel free to add whatever you would like to it. And then there's also the calls you can make calls. We also provide a template for that. You can also sign the petition that is change dot org. Really though, like it's going to come down to also election time, so like when these you know, the DA all these people who are running, like, we have to get people in the position that are going to make a change. So if you are someone in you know, Harnett County and you hear Christian story and it resonates with you, think about that when you're voting and who you're voting into power, because again, this could very well be your family, and that's important.

So we have the Justice for Christian Instagram page, and then we also have the Justice for Christian Facebook page. On the Instagram page, there is a link in the bio with like five or six different ways that you can take direct action. You can email local officials from there. It also has the phone numbers with a script, and the email is also a template. You can feel free to add whatever you would like to it. And then there's also the calls you can make calls. We also provide a template for that. You can also sign the petition that is change dot org. Really though, like it's going to come down to also election time, so like when these you know, the DA all these people who are running, like, we have to get people in the position that are going to make a change. So if you are someone in you know, Harnett County and you hear Christian story and it resonates with you, think about that when you're voting and who you're voting into power, because again, this could very well be your family, and that's important.

Well, Crystal, I adore your family. I don't think I've been subtle about that. I think your parents are spectacular people and I love getting to see you as a mother and your kid. I mean, your son looks like Christian. When you post side by side pictures, you know, it's heartbreaking, but it's also beautiful.

Well, Crystal, I adore your family. I don't think I've been subtle about that. I think your parents are spectacular people and I love getting to see you as a mother and your kid. I mean, your son looks like Christian. When you post side by side pictures, you know, it's heartbreaking, but it's also beautiful.

Yeah, he was born on Christian's birthday, which is wild. Yes, they look alike. They act alike, and you know, I get to watch him with my daughter and it very much reminds me of me and Christian.

Yeah, he was born on Christian's birthday, which is wild. Yes, they look alike. They act alike, and you know, I get to watch him with my daughter and it very much reminds me of me and Christian.

Yeah. Well, I hope everyone at home takes those steps and gets involved and go tell five friends and tell those friends to tell five friends. And in the meantime, I hope I get to see you and your parents in person so I can give you a big hug. But I'm so grateful for you guys opening yourselves up to people so they can understand the real gravity of these stories. You know, you guys are heroes.

Yeah. Well, I hope everyone at home takes those steps and gets involved and go tell five friends and tell those friends to tell five friends. And in the meantime, I hope I get to see you and your parents in person so I can give you a big hug. But I'm so grateful for you guys opening yourselves up to people so they can understand the real gravity of these stories. You know, you guys are heroes.

Yep, We'll always be doing that forever.

Yep, We'll always be doing that forever.

For more information on Christian Griggs and the ways you can help his family, be sure to visit Justice for Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram. After the break, I am going to be sitting down with Scott Pogancy to discuss how Brandon Woodruff is doing today and possible movement in his case. Welcome back, you guys. Okay, Scott Pokency is here with me right now, and he is hands down the most focused guest we have ever had. Because the day we sat down for our television interview was so chaotic, and you maintained your composure and really filled us in on very important information with you know, five minutes. We had no time to do this. The morning of our interview, everything went sideways. Do you remember that?

For more information on Christian Griggs and the ways you can help his family, be sure to visit Justice for Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram. After the break, I am going to be sitting down with Scott Pogancy to discuss how Brandon Woodruff is doing today and possible movement in his case. Welcome back, you guys. Okay, Scott Pokency is here with me right now, and he is hands down the most focused guest we have ever had. Because the day we sat down for our television interview was so chaotic, and you maintained your composure and really filled us in on very important information with you know, five minutes. We had no time to do this. The morning of our interview, everything went sideways. Do you remember that?

Oh yeah, we had we had the shooting range in the background.

Oh yeah, we had we had the shooting range in the background.

Our original location to meet I think fell through, right, and so we were left with this like a campground, like clubhouse at a campground, gunfire the background, and there was a children's graduation party happening that day. So they told us, They're like, you guys have forty five minutes, you know, And that stressed me out.

Our original location to meet I think fell through, right, and so we were left with this like a campground, like clubhouse at a campground, gunfire the background, and there was a children's graduation party happening that day. So they told us, They're like, you guys have forty five minutes, you know, And that stressed me out.

And I am a seasoned interviewer. I've been doing this since I you know, I was eighteen years old. For you, I was so worried about you because there was so much pressure to just get it all right and fit it in from the jump, and you were so steadfast and so focused. You know how much pressure did you feel that day?

And I am a seasoned interviewer. I've been doing this since I you know, I was eighteen years old. For you, I was so worried about you because there was so much pressure to just get it all right and fit it in from the jump, and you were so steadfast and so focused. You know how much pressure did you feel that day?

Well, you know, it's one of those things where I've been I mean, I've been studying, I've been involved with the case for so long that I've just I pretty much know it by memory. So I really didn't even have to you know, prepare or anything like that. It was just like, hey, show up, tell them what you know. Obviously, we don't want to veer off too far about you know, things that don't matter, so I just really tried to stay on the topic and you know, just try to get the information across.

Well, you know, it's one of those things where I've been I mean, I've been studying, I've been involved with the case for so long that I've just I pretty much know it by memory. So I really didn't even have to you know, prepare or anything like that. It was just like, hey, show up, tell them what you know. Obviously, we don't want to veer off too far about you know, things that don't matter, so I just really tried to stay on the topic and you know, just try to get the information across.

Well, you're kind of the perfect example of what we want our viewers and our listeners to do. You know, you saw something was wrong, you jumped in, you got involved, and I think it's really easy for a lot of people to just turn the channel or turn the TV off, and you didn't do that. You know, when you saw the news story about his case, it stuck with you and you decided to do something about it.

Well, you're kind of the perfect example of what we want our viewers and our listeners to do. You know, you saw something was wrong, you jumped in, you got involved, and I think it's really easy for a lot of people to just turn the channel or turn the TV off, and you didn't do that. You know, when you saw the news story about his case, it stuck with you and you decided to do something about it.

Well, so the way that it all came about was back in like twenty seventeen. I had known Brandon for about six or seven years at that point, and there had been no progress at all about getting his case out there. And so I told him one day we were talking, I said, you know, your case is so complicated. There's so many players, there's so many different twists and turns. What we really need to do is get your story out there in some kind of video form that somebody can just lay down at the end of the day, turn it on, watch it, and just spend an hour, maybe hour and a half or whatever, just learning about your case, at least all the major parts of your case. And he agreed. So, you know, I was an EMT at the time. You know, I wasn't a filmmaker. I didn't have any special skills. But I just thought to myself. I was like, you know, I have a camera, I have a microphone, I have a computer. I can do this myself. You know, it may not look like Hollywood, but it is something that I can at least put together the information.

Well, so the way that it all came about was back in like twenty seventeen. I had known Brandon for about six or seven years at that point, and there had been no progress at all about getting his case out there. And so I told him one day we were talking, I said, you know, your case is so complicated. There's so many players, there's so many different twists and turns. What we really need to do is get your story out there in some kind of video form that somebody can just lay down at the end of the day, turn it on, watch it, and just spend an hour, maybe hour and a half or whatever, just learning about your case, at least all the major parts of your case. And he agreed. So, you know, I was an EMT at the time. You know, I wasn't a filmmaker. I didn't have any special skills. But I just thought to myself. I was like, you know, I have a camera, I have a microphone, I have a computer. I can do this myself. You know, it may not look like Hollywood, but it is something that I can at least put together the information.

Hold on, go back you were an EMT because I didn't know that. It's just crazy to me in this moment how much this case has changed your life. You know, how do you even start putting Brandon's story together?

Hold on, go back you were an EMT because I didn't know that. It's just crazy to me in this moment how much this case has changed your life. You know, how do you even start putting Brandon's story together?

When it first started, when we first started talking, it was just letters. You know, we were just pen pals, and you know, I'd send a letter off and maybe a month or two later, I'd get a letter back. And it just developed from then, especially when I started working on the film, because I would have to start I would need to start communicating with them more. I would say things like, Okay, tell me what I need to cover next. You know, what parts of the story am I missing here? And so it was actually kind of a collaborative effort with him. So because of that, we just started talking more and more. I think it's just a way for him to escape, you know, to keep his mind out of prison. And also the reason is because he's in I think in order to keep his mind right, he just calls me, calls his grandmother, he calls Edie, you know, it calls all these people all the time, just to try to stay you know, keep his mind out of prison.

When it first started, when we first started talking, it was just letters. You know, we were just pen pals, and you know, I'd send a letter off and maybe a month or two later, I'd get a letter back. And it just developed from then, especially when I started working on the film, because I would have to start I would need to start communicating with them more. I would say things like, Okay, tell me what I need to cover next. You know, what parts of the story am I missing here? And so it was actually kind of a collaborative effort with him. So because of that, we just started talking more and more. I think it's just a way for him to escape, you know, to keep his mind out of prison. And also the reason is because he's in I think in order to keep his mind right, he just calls me, calls his grandmother, he calls Edie, you know, it calls all these people all the time, just to try to stay you know, keep his mind out of prison.

Can you tell me who Edie is?

Can you tell me who Edie is?

Yeah, Edie Bullock is. So at the time of all of this, she owned a animal feed store and Brandon actually went to work for her over a couple summers, I think his junior and senior year, and so they just you know, she became close with Brandon of course, and Dennis and Norma as well, and then when all of this happened, you know, she was one of the first ones to step up and say, I don't believe what you're telling me about Brandon. Prove it to me, show me the proof. She's just one of those people that has been along with her husband Randy, they've just they've been by his side since the very beginning, and they are definitely his along with me and his grandmother, like the biggest supporters that he has.

Yeah, Edie Bullock is. So at the time of all of this, she owned a animal feed store and Brandon actually went to work for her over a couple summers, I think his junior and senior year, and so they just you know, she became close with Brandon of course, and Dennis and Norma as well, and then when all of this happened, you know, she was one of the first ones to step up and say, I don't believe what you're telling me about Brandon. Prove it to me, show me the proof. She's just one of those people that has been along with her husband Randy, they've just they've been by his side since the very beginning, and they are definitely his along with me and his grandmother, like the biggest supporters that he has.

Okay, so the circle is his former boss, you someone who'd been a total stranger before Brandon went to prison, and his grandmother. You know, that's his main circle. So you guys are the ones that he talks to and that he hears from on a regular basis. I remember when I first met Bonnie, his grandmother, she was sharing with me his beautiful artwork. Brandon is an incredible artist, and he was making all of this art in prison, and she was telling me that it gave him a lot of comfort. And so can you tell me, is that what he's still up to, Like what's his day.

Okay, so the circle is his former boss, you someone who'd been a total stranger before Brandon went to prison, and his grandmother. You know, that's his main circle. So you guys are the ones that he talks to and that he hears from on a regular basis. I remember when I first met Bonnie, his grandmother, she was sharing with me his beautiful artwork. Brandon is an incredible artist, and he was making all of this art in prison, and she was telling me that it gave him a lot of comfort. And so can you tell me, is that what he's still up to, Like what's his day.

To day like since we filmed right now at this particular time, Unfortunately, because of staffing and because of budget cuts and things like that, the craft shop isn't open anymore, hasn't been in the craft shop for three or four years at this point. Oh no, And they're blaming they just blame it on budget cuts and staffing. They don't have the staffing to cook the food and pass it out and all that kind of stuff. So right now in particular, and it's not just Brandon, obviously, it's the whole Texas criminal justice system at this point. I mean, really, a lot of the stuff that they're doing to these inmates right now is just cruel and humane.

To day like since we filmed right now at this particular time, Unfortunately, because of staffing and because of budget cuts and things like that, the craft shop isn't open anymore, hasn't been in the craft shop for three or four years at this point. Oh no, And they're blaming they just blame it on budget cuts and staffing. They don't have the staffing to cook the food and pass it out and all that kind of stuff. So right now in particular, and it's not just Brandon, obviously, it's the whole Texas criminal justice system at this point. I mean, really, a lot of the stuff that they're doing to these inmates right now is just cruel and humane.

Texas is complicated and for a variety of reasons, but just in terms of Brandon's case, I remember when we came down there to film the episode, there was hope on our end that so many years had gone by and that the stigma of being gay in Texas would be a thing of the past and a fresh perspective in the state would make it a no brainer that that tagline, if you could lie about your sexuality, you could lie about killing your parents, It would just make it so clear that that was bullshit, right, And then we were filming this wave of legislation hit Texas that was very discriminatory to the LGBTQIA plus community, and it's just been really disheartening because it makes me feel like maybe they won't care, you know, maybe they won't see this case for what it is, and maybe sexuality is still a punishable offense in the state of Texas.

Texas is complicated and for a variety of reasons, but just in terms of Brandon's case, I remember when we came down there to film the episode, there was hope on our end that so many years had gone by and that the stigma of being gay in Texas would be a thing of the past and a fresh perspective in the state would make it a no brainer that that tagline, if you could lie about your sexuality, you could lie about killing your parents, It would just make it so clear that that was bullshit, right, And then we were filming this wave of legislation hit Texas that was very discriminatory to the LGBTQIA plus community, and it's just been really disheartening because it makes me feel like maybe they won't care, you know, maybe they won't see this case for what it is, and maybe sexuality is still a punishable offense in the state of Texas.

Texas is kind of an odd state, and it really is, and This is why if you look at the majority of people in Texas, I would say the tides have changed about being gay, and most people are very tolerant. I live in a bigger city, I live in a suburb of Dallas, so I don't really have a lot of experiences with people that are just intolerant. However, the reason that all of these laws and all of these initiatives have been successful is because the majority of people in Texas of the population, live in the big cities. They live in Dallas, they live in Fort Worth, they live in San Antonio, they live in Austin. But unfortunately, like ninety percent of the counties are rural. But then when you realize, you know the legislature is made up of all these conservative Republicans. They're all from counties around the state. They're not from the popular cities like Dallas and Fort Worth and stuff. So that's why you still have these laws that are being made, is because you have a majority of Republicans in the state legislature that are making these laws. I don't think it's because a majority of the people in Texas are bigoted or whatever. I think it's because of the way that the laws are set out in the way that the people are elected, that we have this super majority in Austin of these Republicans, and they're the ones trying to pander to their constituents in Hunt Canty and in Lamar County and in all these smaller counties. I think that's why Texas is kind of an anomaly.

Texas is kind of an odd state, and it really is, and This is why if you look at the majority of people in Texas, I would say the tides have changed about being gay, and most people are very tolerant. I live in a bigger city, I live in a suburb of Dallas, so I don't really have a lot of experiences with people that are just intolerant. However, the reason that all of these laws and all of these initiatives have been successful is because the majority of people in Texas of the population, live in the big cities. They live in Dallas, they live in Fort Worth, they live in San Antonio, they live in Austin. But unfortunately, like ninety percent of the counties are rural. But then when you realize, you know the legislature is made up of all these conservative Republicans. They're all from counties around the state. They're not from the popular cities like Dallas and Fort Worth and stuff. So that's why you still have these laws that are being made, is because you have a majority of Republicans in the state legislature that are making these laws. I don't think it's because a majority of the people in Texas are bigoted or whatever. I think it's because of the way that the laws are set out in the way that the people are elected, that we have this super majority in Austin of these Republicans, and they're the ones trying to pander to their constituents in Hunt Canty and in Lamar County and in all these smaller counties. I think that's why Texas is kind of an anomaly.

You know, I don't even know how to combat that, other than just telling the story over and over and over again. Where is Brandon's case right now? Like, what are the steps so right now?

You know, I don't even know how to combat that, other than just telling the story over and over and over again. Where is Brandon's case right now? Like, what are the steps so right now?

The only thing that he has available to him is what's called an eleven oh seven writ of habeas corpus. Basically in Layman's terms, it's usually referred to as a writ of actual innocence. And the problem with this is and most people that are successful in this type of writ, they usually have DNA evidence, and you know, it's like a I don't know, let's say a rape kit and the DNA came back and it was someone else. Well, usually you know, that type of thing will get someone out of prison. In Brandon's case, he has basically just a preponderance of the evidence to show that there's no way that he could have done this. So when you bring a writ of habeas corpus are rid of actual innocence. You have to prove that you are innocent beyond any doubt, not beyond a reasonable doubt, like you do to be convicted, but you have to prove that you are not the one that did this crime beyond any doubt whatsoever. So right now the Innocence Project of Texas preparing and investigating and you know, still doing the work on a writ of actual innocence that she can present to the court. It goes to the court that he was convicted in, which unfortunately, right now, the judge in that court is the former DA that violated his sixth Amendment.

The only thing that he has available to him is what's called an eleven oh seven writ of habeas corpus. Basically in Layman's terms, it's usually referred to as a writ of actual innocence. And the problem with this is and most people that are successful in this type of writ, they usually have DNA evidence, and you know, it's like a I don't know, let's say a rape kit and the DNA came back and it was someone else. Well, usually you know, that type of thing will get someone out of prison. In Brandon's case, he has basically just a preponderance of the evidence to show that there's no way that he could have done this. So when you bring a writ of habeas corpus are rid of actual innocence. You have to prove that you are innocent beyond any doubt, not beyond a reasonable doubt, like you do to be convicted, but you have to prove that you are not the one that did this crime beyond any doubt whatsoever. So right now the Innocence Project of Texas preparing and investigating and you know, still doing the work on a writ of actual innocence that she can present to the court. It goes to the court that he was convicted in, which unfortunately, right now, the judge in that court is the former DA that violated his sixth Amendment.

Right, how is that not the most corrupt path possible to just kick it right back to the person that did it in the first place.

Right, how is that not the most corrupt path possible to just kick it right back to the person that did it in the first place.

Well, so judges and da in Texas are elected. So you know, as she furthered her career, she ran for judge and she you know, won the election. But obviously when it goes back to her court, she's going to be recused and there's going to be another judge that comes in. So we don't know yet, you know, if it's going to be another judge from that County, or what we're hoping for is that we can bring in a visiting judge from Dallas, you know well.

Well, so judges and da in Texas are elected. So you know, as she furthered her career, she ran for judge and she you know, won the election. But obviously when it goes back to her court, she's going to be recused and there's going to be another judge that comes in. So we don't know yet, you know, if it's going to be another judge from that County, or what we're hoping for is that we can bring in a visiting judge from Dallas, you know well.

And they also don't get out until the people who put them away have retired. That seems to be the trend over and over and over again, is that you are waiting at least twenty years until the people who put you there are gone. And that's a horrible pattern for us to have in our country, you know, where the egos of some people are worth more than the truth or the freedom of innocent people. And so for these you know judges in Texas, I think you're absolutely right seeing visible, loud support for Brandon is vital. And so where are the places that these people are gathering? What's the information that we can put in front of Brandon's supporters.

And they also don't get out until the people who put them away have retired. That seems to be the trend over and over and over again, is that you are waiting at least twenty years until the people who put you there are gone. And that's a horrible pattern for us to have in our country, you know, where the egos of some people are worth more than the truth or the freedom of innocent people. And so for these you know judges in Texas, I think you're absolutely right seeing visible, loud support for Brandon is vital. And so where are the places that these people are gathering? What's the information that we can put in front of Brandon's supporters.

Well, right now, anything that we do goes on to as website Freebrandon dot org. Also there's a change dot org petition that we're trying to get support for. I don't have a direct link. You just have to go to change dot org and search for Brandon Woodriff and it'll come up. But you know that type of thing is really anything that we do will be posted.

Well, right now, anything that we do goes on to as website Freebrandon dot org. Also there's a change dot org petition that we're trying to get support for. I don't have a direct link. You just have to go to change dot org and search for Brandon Woodriff and it'll come up. But you know that type of thing is really anything that we do will be posted.

There and so with his case. I was just in the Texas Innocence Project office and spoke to them about Brandon's case, and it's very much at the forefront of everybody's mind there this habe is hearing. Are there any dates? Is there anything set as of right now? Or is it just kind of floating the way our justice system seems to do.

There and so with his case. I was just in the Texas Innocence Project office and spoke to them about Brandon's case, and it's very much at the forefront of everybody's mind there this habe is hearing. Are there any dates? Is there anything set as of right now? Or is it just kind of floating the way our justice system seems to do.

Well with the rid of habeas core. He literally has one shot, so there's no I guess rush, you know, like we're not rushing to get this going. They're very much doing it methodically. They're investigating what they have to investigate. They're looking down every avenue that they have, because when they go into court, a habeas hearing is kind of like a tree with a bunch of branches, you know. It's like you're trying to give the judge a reason to exonerate somebody. So you give them a bunch of branches, You give them a bunch of reasons. Okay, Number one, here's the phone timeline. Here's what we found about the phone records. Da da da da da da da da da. Okay. Number two, here's what we found about witnesses that have come forward. Da da da da da da so you have all these different issues that you bring up on appeal, and like I said, you're hoping that the judge at least latches onto one of them and says, Okay, I'm not going to dismiss this because of one, two, three, four, seven or eight, but number five and six, I do believe you have a valid point. We're going to dismiss these charges. So that's why they're being methodical about researching every avenue that they have, every lead, they have, everything that they are looking into. They want to have it as thorough as they can because, like I said, you don't get a second shot at it.

Well with the rid of habeas core. He literally has one shot, so there's no I guess rush, you know, like we're not rushing to get this going. They're very much doing it methodically. They're investigating what they have to investigate. They're looking down every avenue that they have, because when they go into court, a habeas hearing is kind of like a tree with a bunch of branches, you know. It's like you're trying to give the judge a reason to exonerate somebody. So you give them a bunch of branches, You give them a bunch of reasons. Okay, Number one, here's the phone timeline. Here's what we found about the phone records. Da da da da da da da da da. Okay. Number two, here's what we found about witnesses that have come forward. Da da da da da da so you have all these different issues that you bring up on appeal, and like I said, you're hoping that the judge at least latches onto one of them and says, Okay, I'm not going to dismiss this because of one, two, three, four, seven or eight, but number five and six, I do believe you have a valid point. We're going to dismiss these charges. So that's why they're being methodical about researching every avenue that they have, every lead, they have, everything that they are looking into. They want to have it as thorough as they can because, like I said, you don't get a second shot at it.

Yeah, So it's our job in the meantime to rally everyone we can so that when it is go time, there is a force behind Brandon that sends a clear message. And Scott, honestly, I said it when we left Texas after meeting you. If anything ever happens to me, I want you on my team. You know, I hope everyone out there has a Scot in their life who shows up and you know, really embodies loyalty and and faith and the hard work it takes to get over hurdles like this. You know, it's remarkable what you've done, you brought us into the story. We will be standing by at any news from you or the Texas Innocence Project and in the meantime encouraging people to write letters, sign the petition, stay involved, show up when there is a hearing, you know, because to your point, pressure is what makes all the difference. And so thank you so much for being a constant source of pressure in this case. We're really grateful to have you.

Yeah, So it's our job in the meantime to rally everyone we can so that when it is go time, there is a force behind Brandon that sends a clear message. And Scott, honestly, I said it when we left Texas after meeting you. If anything ever happens to me, I want you on my team. You know, I hope everyone out there has a Scot in their life who shows up and you know, really embodies loyalty and and faith and the hard work it takes to get over hurdles like this. You know, it's remarkable what you've done, you brought us into the story. We will be standing by at any news from you or the Texas Innocence Project and in the meantime encouraging people to write letters, sign the petition, stay involved, show up when there is a hearing, you know, because to your point, pressure is what makes all the difference. And so thank you so much for being a constant source of pressure in this case. We're really grateful to have you.

Well, I thank you guys for everything. I know that your time is busy and valuable, and just the fact that you're taking time on Brandon's case is just from the whole support team. We thank you and we appreciate what you're doing.

Well, I thank you guys for everything. I know that your time is busy and valuable, and just the fact that you're taking time on Brandon's case is just from the whole support team. We thank you and we appreciate what you're doing.

To get involved with Brandon Woodruf's case, you can visit Freebrandon dot org or you can go to the free Brandon Facebook page at facebook dot com slash free Brandon. All Right, you guys, that is it for this week's episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. A huge thank you to our guests and on behalf of them and our crew. We really hope you continue to stay engaged with these cases, raise your voices, get involved, because together we can create a more just justice System. Now you may have heard this, but we have all new episodes of the TV shows starting April eighteenth. Be sure to join us next week because we are going to be teasing our all new season of Sundance TVs True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. We have brand new episodes for you, and they need your help too, so mark your calendars. We're coming to you April eighteenth. Join us next week as we continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for joining us. If you haven't watch Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive Producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson, Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by Philip Ridiotis. We want to say a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by our cases.

To get involved with Brandon Woodruf's case, you can visit Freebrandon dot org or you can go to the free Brandon Facebook page at facebook dot com slash free Brandon. All Right, you guys, that is it for this week's episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. A huge thank you to our guests and on behalf of them and our crew. We really hope you continue to stay engaged with these cases, raise your voices, get involved, because together we can create a more just justice System. Now you may have heard this, but we have all new episodes of the TV shows starting April eighteenth. Be sure to join us next week because we are going to be teasing our all new season of Sundance TVs True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. We have brand new episodes for you, and they need your help too, so mark your calendars. We're coming to you April eighteenth. Join us next week as we continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for joining us. If you haven't watch Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive Producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson, Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by Philip Ridiotis. We want to say a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by our cases.