You're listening to a Mum and mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded on It's a February morning in the winter of nineteen ninety four in the city of Placentia, California, and Kathy Torres's mother is worried her daughter never returned home from her shift at the local save on drug store last night. The police are called, but as they begin a search, they warn her concerned family. Sometimes young people her age just drive away to be by themselves for a while. That's not Kathy, her mum replies. The twenty year old is a high achiever, a sociology major, working two jobs to pay away in college. She lives at home with her mum, Mary, her stepdad, and three siblings. She'd never just disappear. Six days later, a police officer wakes Mary in the middle of the night. They need Kathy's spare car key Immediately, as they retreat with it in hand, they won't meet her eye. In the light of day, Kathy's loved ones are given the worst news imaginable. Kathy has been brutally murdered, her body shoved into the trunk of her car. But that is only the start of their nightmare. The details of Kathy's death will haunt them for years, and it'll be two decades before they finally see her killer brought to justice. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. From the start, detectives suspected Kathy's on again, off again boyfriend, Sam Lopez, but with little evidence went cold. Today's guest was the one who finally put him behind bars, securing a conviction twenty one years in the making. Matt Murphy is a former homicide prosecutor who has tried over two hundred criminal cases to verdict, including well over one hundred jury trials, in his twenty six year career. Many of the cases he covered during his time with the homicide Unit made headlines worldwide as he worked behind the scenes on some of America's biggest crimes, including the Dirty John case that was made into a global podcast phenomenon. He's just released a book called The Book of Murder, a prosecutor's journey through love and death. Matt joins us Now, Matt, I wanted to start with the murder of a young woman in the nineties. Her name was Kathy Torres, and you came into her story a decade or so after her. Is at what point in your career were you when you became involved in that case.

You're listening to a Mum and mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded on It's a February morning in the winter of nineteen ninety four in the city of Placentia, California, and Kathy Torres's mother is worried her daughter never returned home from her shift at the local save on drug store last night. The police are called, but as they begin a search, they warn her concerned family. Sometimes young people her age just drive away to be by themselves for a while. That's not Kathy, her mum replies. The twenty year old is a high achiever, a sociology major, working two jobs to pay away in college. She lives at home with her mum, Mary, her stepdad, and three siblings. She'd never just disappear. Six days later, a police officer wakes Mary in the middle of the night. They need Kathy's spare car key Immediately, as they retreat with it in hand, they won't meet her eye. In the light of day, Kathy's loved ones are given the worst news imaginable. Kathy has been brutally murdered, her body shoved into the trunk of her car. But that is only the start of their nightmare. The details of Kathy's death will haunt them for years, and it'll be two decades before they finally see her killer brought to justice. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. From the start, detectives suspected Kathy's on again, off again boyfriend, Sam Lopez, but with little evidence went cold. Today's guest was the one who finally put him behind bars, securing a conviction twenty one years in the making. Matt Murphy is a former homicide prosecutor who has tried over two hundred criminal cases to verdict, including well over one hundred jury trials, in his twenty six year career. Many of the cases he covered during his time with the homicide Unit made headlines worldwide as he worked behind the scenes on some of America's biggest crimes, including the Dirty John case that was made into a global podcast phenomenon. He's just released a book called The Book of Murder, a prosecutor's journey through love and death. Matt joins us Now, Matt, I wanted to start with the murder of a young woman in the nineties. Her name was Kathy Torres, and you came into her story a decade or so after her. Is at what point in your career were you when you became involved in that case.

So the way it works in Orange County, it's actually known as a vertical system. The way that works is you get as sign certain cities, and vertical means you follow the case all the way up, so it's kind of like TV. So I've been in homicide a few years when I first started working on that, and basically you start with the mismeanor jury trials, you do a tour in juvenile court, then you go through general felonies, and then I came through sexual assault. I'd been in homicide for a while, so I had cities assigned to me, so anytime there's a murder committed, we would actually roll out in the middle of the night. I'd go in with my investigator. You're there to sign search warrants and do what you can to help, and you do that for a while, and then I volunteered to be one of the two cold case deputies in our unit. So this was Placentia PD. Wasn't one of my cities, and this case wound up being fascinating.

So the way it works in Orange County, it's actually known as a vertical system. The way that works is you get as sign certain cities, and vertical means you follow the case all the way up, so it's kind of like TV. So I've been in homicide a few years when I first started working on that, and basically you start with the mismeanor jury trials, you do a tour in juvenile court, then you go through general felonies, and then I came through sexual assault. I'd been in homicide for a while, so I had cities assigned to me, so anytime there's a murder committed, we would actually roll out in the middle of the night. I'd go in with my investigator. You're there to sign search warrants and do what you can to help, and you do that for a while, and then I volunteered to be one of the two cold case deputies in our unit. So this was Placentia PD. Wasn't one of my cities, and this case wound up being fascinating.

I got brought in. I'd probably been in the unit, I.

I got brought in. I'd probably been in the unit, I.

Guess about five or six years at that point, and there was a change within Placentia Police Department. A new detective named Darren Wyatt came in and I'd worked on a couple of cases with Darren, and he was like a dog with a bone. It was something straight out of TV where you had this obsessed detective who really wanted to bring justice to a victim's family. And for all the high profile cases I did, this one didn't really have a whole lot of media on it. It was just a bunch of really nice people who lost their sister and their daughter and wanted justice. So that's how I first got involved. Darren showed up in my office saying that you wanted me to take a look.

Guess about five or six years at that point, and there was a change within Placentia Police Department. A new detective named Darren Wyatt came in and I'd worked on a couple of cases with Darren, and he was like a dog with a bone. It was something straight out of TV where you had this obsessed detective who really wanted to bring justice to a victim's family. And for all the high profile cases I did, this one didn't really have a whole lot of media on it. It was just a bunch of really nice people who lost their sister and their daughter and wanted justice. So that's how I first got involved. Darren showed up in my office saying that you wanted me to take a look.

By this point, you hadn't lost a case, right, And is it true that you were on the hunt the harder, bigger, something a bit more challenging. You right yourself that this was a doozy. You stumbled on a doozy.

By this point, you hadn't lost a case, right, And is it true that you were on the hunt the harder, bigger, something a bit more challenging. You right yourself that this was a doozy. You stumbled on a doozy.

This was a doozy that turned into an even bigger doozy than I ever thought. Yeah, so what happens is when you're in homicide, there's different kinds of murder cases, So like you've got like child abuse cases and you've got gang cases. You know, like liquor store robberies. They're really interesting when you first start doing them, and then you know, it's like any good addiction, you need more and more to get the same high than you did before. So that's why I volunteered for that spot. And then Darren came in. And this was a case that when I looked at the box, there were letters that had been submitted twice before and refused twice before. So some really good prosecutors took a look at it and determined that there was not enough evidence. So Darren, being kind of a genius, he's like, hey, I just want you to meet the family. And then I met Mary Bennett, who was Kathy's mom, and he knew exactly what he was doing.

This was a doozy that turned into an even bigger doozy than I ever thought. Yeah, so what happens is when you're in homicide, there's different kinds of murder cases, So like you've got like child abuse cases and you've got gang cases. You know, like liquor store robberies. They're really interesting when you first start doing them, and then you know, it's like any good addiction, you need more and more to get the same high than you did before. So that's why I volunteered for that spot. And then Darren came in. And this was a case that when I looked at the box, there were letters that had been submitted twice before and refused twice before. So some really good prosecutors took a look at it and determined that there was not enough evidence. So Darren, being kind of a genius, he's like, hey, I just want you to meet the family. And then I met Mary Bennett, who was Kathy's mom, and he knew exactly what he was doing.

So as soon as we.

So as soon as we.

Sat down, just the nicest lady. When we walked into the home, there was still sadness there, almost fifteen years after the murder.

Sat down, just the nicest lady. When we walked into the home, there was still sadness there, almost fifteen years after the murder.

Her brother was there.

Her brother was there.

Named Marty and her sister Tina, and like all these really really just instantly likable people, and a lot of folks don't realize that. I mean, we've all lost love once or will if we live long enough, and there's nothing worse except when you have a love one taken because of murder. And then the only thing worse than that is the person gets away with it. And they knew, the family knew who did it, they just couldn't get anybody to file the case. So I want to be in that guy.

Named Marty and her sister Tina, and like all these really really just instantly likable people, and a lot of folks don't realize that. I mean, we've all lost love once or will if we live long enough, and there's nothing worse except when you have a love one taken because of murder. And then the only thing worse than that is the person gets away with it. And they knew, the family knew who did it, they just couldn't get anybody to file the case. So I want to be in that guy.

Let's back up a bit, paint the picture a bit for listeners. As you said, there's nothing worse than having a loved one murdered, but reading what happened to Kathy, it doesn't get much more horrible than that. Can you tell us what happened to Kathy?

Let's back up a bit, paint the picture a bit for listeners. As you said, there's nothing worse than having a loved one murdered, but reading what happened to Kathy, it doesn't get much more horrible than that. Can you tell us what happened to Kathy?

Yeah, so she was in a kind of a stormy relationship with an ex boyfriend or a current boyfriend, depending on who you talk to or which letter we read. But it was a stormy off and on again sort of thing, and she went to go meet him one night and she disappeared. So the family was worried, sick, and she was a very responsible young woman. She was an honor student in college, and she wanted to be a social worker, and she tutored kids, and she lived at home still, and so this was not the type of person to get in trouble and type of person who would just leave. So several days later they discovered her car in the parking lot of a hospital called Placential Linda Hospital, and inside the car they found Kathy and she'd been stabbed dozens and dozens of times, including basically an ear to ear slash mark on her neck. She had slash marks in both wrists as well as a bunch of haphazard stab wounds to her back to her arms, so we had classic defensive type wounds. She'd essentially been butchered, but the cut to the throat is legally very significant because that indicates almost a premeditated decision to kill versus maybe a spontaneous series of stab marks. She had one shoe still on her body and the other shoe was found inside the car, and her sock was dirty, so you start putting the pieces together of that. And she'd been seeing another guy, totally legitimate because her and Sam had broken up at the time. His name was Albert Rangel and he had attempted suicide recently, so he was actually in a coma and she was writing the letters every day, and we had a letter halfway written to Alvert. It was stopped mid sentence, crammed between the seat and the center console. And one of the fascinating things about investigating homicide cases is fundamentally it's all common sense.

Yeah, so she was in a kind of a stormy relationship with an ex boyfriend or a current boyfriend, depending on who you talk to or which letter we read. But it was a stormy off and on again sort of thing, and she went to go meet him one night and she disappeared. So the family was worried, sick, and she was a very responsible young woman. She was an honor student in college, and she wanted to be a social worker, and she tutored kids, and she lived at home still, and so this was not the type of person to get in trouble and type of person who would just leave. So several days later they discovered her car in the parking lot of a hospital called Placential Linda Hospital, and inside the car they found Kathy and she'd been stabbed dozens and dozens of times, including basically an ear to ear slash mark on her neck. She had slash marks in both wrists as well as a bunch of haphazard stab wounds to her back to her arms, so we had classic defensive type wounds. She'd essentially been butchered, but the cut to the throat is legally very significant because that indicates almost a premeditated decision to kill versus maybe a spontaneous series of stab marks. She had one shoe still on her body and the other shoe was found inside the car, and her sock was dirty, so you start putting the pieces together of that. And she'd been seeing another guy, totally legitimate because her and Sam had broken up at the time. His name was Albert Rangel and he had attempted suicide recently, so he was actually in a coma and she was writing the letters every day, and we had a letter halfway written to Alvert. It was stopped mid sentence, crammed between the seat and the center console. And one of the fascinating things about investigating homicide cases is fundamentally it's all common sense.

Right.

Right.

So I had two of the best investigators on the planet working with me on this case, and Larry Montgomery and Darren Wyatt. But really what it boils down to is just that common sense life experience that we all have. So if you got one sock is dirty and she's got stab wounds in the back, what does that tell us? And what it means is there was a fight in the car where somehow in the struggles she lost one.

So I had two of the best investigators on the planet working with me on this case, and Larry Montgomery and Darren Wyatt. But really what it boils down to is just that common sense life experience that we all have. So if you got one sock is dirty and she's got stab wounds in the back, what does that tell us? And what it means is there was a fight in the car where somehow in the struggles she lost one.

Of her shoes.

Of her shoes.

The fact that the sock is dirty ment she got out of the car and was running. The biggest piece of the puzzle for me was on the inside trunk lid. We had what's on this arterial spurting, so we had drops of blood on the trunk lid. That means that she was alive when she went in the trunk. Her heart was still beating. So when you put those together and you look at the letter, she's mid letter to a man that is in an hospital, which is exactly the kind of trigger that a jealous boyfriend you might be set off by that. So when you start putting those puzzle pieces together that it starts to become clear.

The fact that the sock is dirty ment she got out of the car and was running. The biggest piece of the puzzle for me was on the inside trunk lid. We had what's on this arterial spurting, so we had drops of blood on the trunk lid. That means that she was alive when she went in the trunk. Her heart was still beating. So when you put those together and you look at the letter, she's mid letter to a man that is in an hospital, which is exactly the kind of trigger that a jealous boyfriend you might be set off by that. So when you start putting those puzzle pieces together that it starts to become clear.

So why was the case still cold? Then? If you could see all of this and there was a potential suspect, why was it in such a mess when you got to it.

So why was the case still cold? Then? If you could see all of this and there was a potential suspect, why was it in such a mess when you got to it.

Potential suspect is an interesting phrase. One of the things that's fascinating about being a prosecutor. You're the actual shock caller. You make the decision when there's enough evidence. I knew he did it, you know, So it's like potential suspect.

Potential suspect is an interesting phrase. One of the things that's fascinating about being a prosecutor. You're the actual shock caller. You make the decision when there's enough evidence. I knew he did it, you know, So it's like potential suspect.

You're very correct.

You're very correct.

That's the legal and being legally sound there, you're.

That's the legal and being legally sound there, you're.

Being very proper behind closed doors. The presumption of innocence is a very real thing. It's critically important, you know, and I believe in that whole hardly. However, when it's just the people work in the case, when it's me and Larry and Darren, we know who friggin did it. So the problem is is that we live in an era where forensic science is very important, right, So we had no DNA from Sam anywhere on her body. We had no fingerprints from Sam anywhere in the car. What we had was we had a DNA mixture on the left roough quarter panel next to the trunk. And it's a red car. So the crime lab actually did a nice job of processing the car. So it had been basically been left outside in the parking lot and it had rained. But there was one little smear next to the trunk that contained Kathy's blood and also the DNA from a guy named Javier Lopez, who was Sam's first cousin. They were very, very close. They were like practically brothers. The families lived in the same town. They spent a lot of time together. But this was back in the era of what's on a substrate DNA, So this was kind of this is the early nineties. DNA was still an evolving science, and there was this idea that somebody could touch object and then somebody else could come later and you could get blood over their DNA and you might have a mixture. Okay, So the DNA who reviewed it then said, hey, this is explainable. Number one, it's not Sam and number two, there's an explanation.

Being very proper behind closed doors. The presumption of innocence is a very real thing. It's critically important, you know, and I believe in that whole hardly. However, when it's just the people work in the case, when it's me and Larry and Darren, we know who friggin did it. So the problem is is that we live in an era where forensic science is very important, right, So we had no DNA from Sam anywhere on her body. We had no fingerprints from Sam anywhere in the car. What we had was we had a DNA mixture on the left roough quarter panel next to the trunk. And it's a red car. So the crime lab actually did a nice job of processing the car. So it had been basically been left outside in the parking lot and it had rained. But there was one little smear next to the trunk that contained Kathy's blood and also the DNA from a guy named Javier Lopez, who was Sam's first cousin. They were very, very close. They were like practically brothers. The families lived in the same town. They spent a lot of time together. But this was back in the era of what's on a substrate DNA, So this was kind of this is the early nineties. DNA was still an evolving science, and there was this idea that somebody could touch object and then somebody else could come later and you could get blood over their DNA and you might have a mixture. Okay, So the DNA who reviewed it then said, hey, this is explainable. Number one, it's not Sam and number two, there's an explanation.

And when they.

And when they.

Interviewed Hobber way back right after the murder, he said, I was at a record store and I got some stuff out of her trunk and there was an index fingerprint in an upward position belonging to Hobby Aer on the trunk, and there was this mixture of blood and his DNA so forensically back then, you know, in the mind of the prosecutor who reviewed it, that was reasonable doubt, and that's why they didn't file. In my mind at that point, I had done so many DNA cases coming out of sexual assault, and I'd done so many murder cases up to that point, I was far less impressed. And the filing decision really is a subjectible one. Every prosecutor has to make a subjective decision, like with my skill set, with what works for me in a courtroom. Do I have a reasonable likelihood of convincing a jury beyond a reasonable doubt? That can change depending on the prosecutor that reviews it. Right, So, but then we got so I charged the case as is, thinking that Javier would roll on Sam. You know, we call it flipping a witness or rolling a witness, and he didn't. I don't know if it's a polite term, but detectives call it holding their mud. So he refused to roll on his buddy, and he was in custody. So we submitted everything to the crime lab, and again we got nothing from Sam because it appeared that, again putting together our common sense pieces, somebody loaded her into the trunk, right, So Javier's story was I got something out of the trunk.

Interviewed Hobber way back right after the murder, he said, I was at a record store and I got some stuff out of her trunk and there was an index fingerprint in an upward position belonging to Hobby Aer on the trunk, and there was this mixture of blood and his DNA so forensically back then, you know, in the mind of the prosecutor who reviewed it, that was reasonable doubt, and that's why they didn't file. In my mind at that point, I had done so many DNA cases coming out of sexual assault, and I'd done so many murder cases up to that point, I was far less impressed. And the filing decision really is a subjectible one. Every prosecutor has to make a subjective decision, like with my skill set, with what works for me in a courtroom. Do I have a reasonable likelihood of convincing a jury beyond a reasonable doubt? That can change depending on the prosecutor that reviews it. Right, So, but then we got so I charged the case as is, thinking that Javier would roll on Sam. You know, we call it flipping a witness or rolling a witness, and he didn't. I don't know if it's a polite term, but detectives call it holding their mud. So he refused to roll on his buddy, and he was in custody. So we submitted everything to the crime lab, and again we got nothing from Sam because it appeared that, again putting together our common sense pieces, somebody loaded her into the trunk, right, So Javier's story was I got something out of the trunk.

We're at a record store.

We're at a record store.

I might have touched the trunk and maybe her blood was deposited over my DNA at some point later. Like for true crime fans or people that are into the forensics, it's a fascinating defense. But the problem is his story wouldn't have had her touching her Jenes right. And when we submitted everything back to the crime lab, we got a hit for Xavier's DNA on the back of Kathy's jeans, and that changed everything. Now we still don't have Sam's DNA, but Xavier had no business with his DNA on the back of virgins.

I might have touched the trunk and maybe her blood was deposited over my DNA at some point later. Like for true crime fans or people that are into the forensics, it's a fascinating defense. But the problem is his story wouldn't have had her touching her Jenes right. And when we submitted everything back to the crime lab, we got a hit for Xavier's DNA on the back of Kathy's jeans, and that changed everything. Now we still don't have Sam's DNA, but Xavier had no business with his DNA on the back of virgins.

They weren't dating.

They weren't dating.

He had no motive to kill her, and he was Sam's alibi the night of the murders. Now we've got he says he's with Sam. Sam said he's with Sam. They said they never saw Kathy that night. Then the big question is, well, then how did Javier's DNA wind up on the back of virgins?

He had no motive to kill her, and he was Sam's alibi the night of the murders. Now we've got he says he's with Sam. Sam said he's with Sam. They said they never saw Kathy that night. Then the big question is, well, then how did Javier's DNA wind up on the back of virgins?

So we decided to roll with that.

So we decided to roll with that.

Well, you did eventually get Javier to talk, didn't you.

Well, you did eventually get Javier to talk, didn't you.

We did, so Xavier eventually talked and he told us a story and he said, hey, look, Sam killed her. I had nothing to do with it. It's almost like you're too young to remember this. But there's an old series called Get Smart back.

We did, so Xavier eventually talked and he told us a story and he said, hey, look, Sam killed her. I had nothing to do with it. It's almost like you're too young to remember this. But there's an old series called Get Smart back.

In the sun.

In the sun.

Remember Get Smart?

Remember Get Smart?

Okay, you remember I Got Smart?

Okay, you remember I Got Smart?

Yeah, So Get Smart had a gag where it was, you know, he'd get caught in his whatever little spy hi jenks he was involved in, and he'd say, would you believe you know? And that's kind of what we got from Javier. It was like, Okay, I was there, Sam did kill her, but would you believe that? Sam told me about it, and then he told me he left the knife in the trunk, so he drove me back and then I was moving the body around and that must be how my DNA went up there, and I accidentally cut myself on the knife. And it's one of those interviews where my IQ is dropping as I'm.

Yeah, So Get Smart had a gag where it was, you know, he'd get caught in his whatever little spy hi jenks he was involved in, and he'd say, would you believe you know? And that's kind of what we got from Javier. It was like, Okay, I was there, Sam did kill her, but would you believe that? Sam told me about it, and then he told me he left the knife in the trunk, so he drove me back and then I was moving the body around and that must be how my DNA went up there, and I accidentally cut myself on the knife. And it's one of those interviews where my IQ is dropping as I'm.

Listening to it.

Listening to it.

The lawyer for Sam Lopez is my old mentor who left the dat's office. He became a private criminal defense lawyer. His name is Lou Rosenbloom. He is the most insanely talented, gifted trial lawyer I've ever seen. I mean this guy. So I'm thinking in my mind, what is Lou Rosenbloom the single best cross examiner I've already even heard of. What is he going to do to this lying knucklehead? And he's trying to sell his cousin down the river, but he's telling a story that nobody's going to believe about his own innocence. So I had to make the very difficult decision not to put him on the stand. And essentially that was one where good old fashioned common sense. You know, I'm going to get twelve members from the community. And Sam's interview was fascinating, so it's threecorded. There was a series of mistakes made by the Placential Police department back in the day, like they didn't submit the fingerprint on the trunk for three years from Xavier until he came back, So they made a bunch of very basic investigatory errors, but it didn't change any of the evidence that we had, and it didn't change the fact that we got arterial spurting on the trunk, which means she was alive, and Javier's DNA on the back of the knees, which means Javier was a principal to murder as well.

The lawyer for Sam Lopez is my old mentor who left the dat's office. He became a private criminal defense lawyer. His name is Lou Rosenbloom. He is the most insanely talented, gifted trial lawyer I've ever seen. I mean this guy. So I'm thinking in my mind, what is Lou Rosenbloom the single best cross examiner I've already even heard of. What is he going to do to this lying knucklehead? And he's trying to sell his cousin down the river, but he's telling a story that nobody's going to believe about his own innocence. So I had to make the very difficult decision not to put him on the stand. And essentially that was one where good old fashioned common sense. You know, I'm going to get twelve members from the community. And Sam's interview was fascinating, so it's threecorded. There was a series of mistakes made by the Placential Police department back in the day, like they didn't submit the fingerprint on the trunk for three years from Xavier until he came back, So they made a bunch of very basic investigatory errors, but it didn't change any of the evidence that we had, and it didn't change the fact that we got arterial spurting on the trunk, which means she was alive, and Javier's DNA on the back of the knees, which means Javier was a principal to murder as well.

So they were both charged with murder.

So they were both charged with murder.

But when Sam was interviewed, he came in and you know, when you look at it objectively, he was the picture of calmness. He was like, yeah, you know, and he told the story about it. He didn't see her that night, and he was with his cousin, and he was very, sort of mellow and sort of portrayed the quintessential innocent man, like almost somebody. He behaved as if somebody would have behaved if they were walking down the street and the police were just trying to eliminate them from a lista's suspects who had no dog in the fight, who had no emotional connection to any of this, And he answered the questions appropriately, and he was very I think the term would be nonplus and that's just not how Sam Lopez would have acted. Sam was kind of a hothead. He had a very stormy relationship with her. And if he was innocent, this is a guy who would have just learned that the love of his life because he'd actually asked her to a lope the week before she goes missing and she turned him down, he would be losing his mind, right, So the most important thing with jury's is that common sense application of life experience. So it's like, on one hand, on the surface, everything he said was perfect, he denied it, he had an alibi, he was calm, he didn't appear that he was worried about anything. But how would that man actually have reacted when he learned that somebody not only was his beloved girlfriend dead, but that somebody killed her and it took him over forty five minutes to ask how she died.

But when Sam was interviewed, he came in and you know, when you look at it objectively, he was the picture of calmness. He was like, yeah, you know, and he told the story about it. He didn't see her that night, and he was with his cousin, and he was very, sort of mellow and sort of portrayed the quintessential innocent man, like almost somebody. He behaved as if somebody would have behaved if they were walking down the street and the police were just trying to eliminate them from a lista's suspects who had no dog in the fight, who had no emotional connection to any of this, And he answered the questions appropriately, and he was very I think the term would be nonplus and that's just not how Sam Lopez would have acted. Sam was kind of a hothead. He had a very stormy relationship with her. And if he was innocent, this is a guy who would have just learned that the love of his life because he'd actually asked her to a lope the week before she goes missing and she turned him down, he would be losing his mind, right, So the most important thing with jury's is that common sense application of life experience. So it's like, on one hand, on the surface, everything he said was perfect, he denied it, he had an alibi, he was calm, he didn't appear that he was worried about anything. But how would that man actually have reacted when he learned that somebody not only was his beloved girlfriend dead, but that somebody killed her and it took him over forty five minutes to ask how she died.

That makes no sense.

That makes no sense.

So that's what we went with and trying that case against lou Rosenwood. That was probably the single hardest jury trial I've ever done because the defense lawyer was just so good, and in the end, the jury think they did the right thing. I really feel like we got justice for Kathy's family.

So that's what we went with and trying that case against lou Rosenwood. That was probably the single hardest jury trial I've ever done because the defense lawyer was just so good, and in the end, the jury think they did the right thing. I really feel like we got justice for Kathy's family.

Yeah, well you did win that case. Do you think it helped you learn anything as a prosecutor.

Yeah, well you did win that case. Do you think it helped you learn anything as a prosecutor.

Oh, yeah, you learn a lot more from the hard ones, for sure. Lou was the head of the homicide unit when he brought me in. Lou's record, Lou had sixty seven murders in twelve years. I did fifty two trials when I was in the unit over the course of seventeen years. Lou won all sixty seven. I won all the cases that I tried in the homicide unit thankfully as well. But sixty seven murders in twelve years, it's impossible, and Lou did it, and then they made him Head of the year. You know, it was like getting recruited by Michael Jordan to play basketball off your high school team. Lou taught me how to do those cases, and Lou taught me how to do cross examinations. He taught me how to construct prosecutions. And then I'm going up against him. Not only the best trialer or among the best I've ever seen, he was my mentor and very good personal friend, and so yeah, I learned a ton in that, But that was one that the good guys won.

Oh, yeah, you learn a lot more from the hard ones, for sure. Lou was the head of the homicide unit when he brought me in. Lou's record, Lou had sixty seven murders in twelve years. I did fifty two trials when I was in the unit over the course of seventeen years. Lou won all sixty seven. I won all the cases that I tried in the homicide unit thankfully as well. But sixty seven murders in twelve years, it's impossible, and Lou did it, and then they made him Head of the year. You know, it was like getting recruited by Michael Jordan to play basketball off your high school team. Lou taught me how to do those cases, and Lou taught me how to do cross examinations. He taught me how to construct prosecutions. And then I'm going up against him. Not only the best trialer or among the best I've ever seen, he was my mentor and very good personal friend, and so yeah, I learned a ton in that, But that was one that the good guys won.

That's so much pressure to win every single case that you prosecuted.

That's so much pressure to win every single case that you prosecuted.

Yeah, well, so I lost a couple of misdemeanors.

Yeah, well, so I lost a couple of misdemeanors.

I lost my first ball early on.

I lost my first ball early on.

I lost a couple of misdemeanors and didn't like that feeling at all. And the man who really taught me how to take my trial game to the.

I lost a couple of misdemeanors and didn't like that feeling at all. And the man who really taught me how to take my trial game to the.

Next level was Lou.

Next level was Lou.

Lou had never lost a felony, never lost murder, so that I think combined, we had one hundred and six murder cases between the two of us when we went into that trial, and neither one of us had ever lost.

Lou had never lost a felony, never lost murder, so that I think combined, we had one hundred and six murder cases between the two of us when we went into that trial, and neither one of us had ever lost.

You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. I'm speaking with former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy. Matt, let's talk serial killers. How many of you put behind bars? And did you like working on those cases?

You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. I'm speaking with former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy. Matt, let's talk serial killers. How many of you put behind bars? And did you like working on those cases?

Yes, and come off as a little twisted. I loved working on those cases.

Yes, and come off as a little twisted. I loved working on those cases.

I think I've seen you use the word mesmerizing.

I think I've seen you use the word mesmerizing.

They are fascinating creatures. They really are.

They are fascinating creatures. They really are.

So the vast majority of the cases you deal with in the homicide unit, you know, a lot of them are understandable types of killings. You know, it's like you got a methadict who goes and robs seven to eleven a bunch of cases are like that robbery's gone bad. He's twitchy, somebody walks in and he pulls a trigger on a gun. Or the domestic violence things, the husband that gets drunk and next thing you know, he chokes his wife to death. You see a lot of those. There's different kinds of murders. There's the gang murder, which wich is its own archetype with its own factors. Child to means murders. There's different types, and then you also have some very elaborate conspiracies to kill people for money, where people get together and they patch a plot.

So the vast majority of the cases you deal with in the homicide unit, you know, a lot of them are understandable types of killings. You know, it's like you got a methadict who goes and robs seven to eleven a bunch of cases are like that robbery's gone bad. He's twitchy, somebody walks in and he pulls a trigger on a gun. Or the domestic violence things, the husband that gets drunk and next thing you know, he chokes his wife to death. You see a lot of those. There's different kinds of murders. There's the gang murder, which wich is its own archetype with its own factors. Child to means murders. There's different types, and then you also have some very elaborate conspiracies to kill people for money, where people get together and they patch a plot.

Right.

Right.

In my experience, the most fascinating are the serial killers.

In my experience, the most fascinating are the serial killers.

The vast majority of murders. Really, when you break it down.

The vast majority of murders. Really, when you break it down.

And when it's your job to respond in the middle of the night or in the middle of the day to murder scenes, what you see over and over again are the same four or five reasons. People have been killing each other for one hundred thousand years.

And when it's your job to respond in the middle of the night or in the middle of the day to murder scenes, what you see over and over again are the same four or five reasons. People have been killing each other for one hundred thousand years.

You know.

You know.

It's jealousy, anger, greed. It's almost like the mortal sins, right. You see the same stuff over and over again. The jealous husband, the angry just speat between neighbors over a tree or a fence like stupid stuff like that, over and over again. Even though we would never do it ourselves, you sort of understand what the motivation is. Serial Killers are totally different. You know, as uncomfortable as it is, there are people out there who kill for fun, and that's truly what it is.

It's jealousy, anger, greed. It's almost like the mortal sins, right. You see the same stuff over and over again. The jealous husband, the angry just speat between neighbors over a tree or a fence like stupid stuff like that, over and over again. Even though we would never do it ourselves, you sort of understand what the motivation is. Serial Killers are totally different. You know, as uncomfortable as it is, there are people out there who kill for fun, and that's truly what it is.

It's fun.

It's fun.

They get sexual gratification from it. The classic serial killer, like the Ted Bundy, the Jeffrey Dahmer.

They get sexual gratification from it. The classic serial killer, like the Ted Bundy, the Jeffrey Dahmer.

We all have this image in our mind.

We all have this image in our mind.

Of what a serial killer is. And when I started, I talked about this a little bit in the book. When I started in homicide, you know, my experience with serial killers was limited to Silence of the Lamps. I eventually read Mindhunter by an fbi agen named John Douglas, which is an amazing book. But look at our two main serial killers and Sons of the Lamps. You got Buffalo Bill and for everybody who's seen the movie, he's murdering women because he wants to metamorphosize into a woman, so he's killing them to wear their skin. And it's based on a real guy and that existed in the Annals of serial Killers. And then the other one is Hannibal Elector and he's killing them to eat them right. Neither of those characters represents the real serial killer in my mind. As scary as they are, you know, you've got a creepy, brilliant psychiatrist and then you've got the weird guy with the van with the creepy house on the hill. Real serial killers are scarier than that. They're the guy that could be in line in front of you at a Starbucks and you'd never know. And there's this myth out there that I bought into very much when I started homicide that serial killers are the product of abuse, you know, like the character Buffalo Bill, like he'd been horribly abused as a child, and you almost have this built in sympathy. And one of the questions you hear over and over again is what in God's name could make somebody do that? Like what trauma did they go through to make them hate women that much? And the creepy thing about it is most serial killers, in my experience, weren't traumatized as kids. They were spoiled more often than not. And they do it because they like it. They sexually get off on it, and it's fun to them, and they tend to have success. They tend to be employed. A lot of them are married, a lot of them are professionals. And you know, Rodney o'calla has a case that I get into in the book. He was on the yearbook committee. He had a genius level IQ. He was in a really good high school. He had a girlfriend, he was a cross country varsity letterman.

Of what a serial killer is. And when I started, I talked about this a little bit in the book. When I started in homicide, you know, my experience with serial killers was limited to Silence of the Lamps. I eventually read Mindhunter by an fbi agen named John Douglas, which is an amazing book. But look at our two main serial killers and Sons of the Lamps. You got Buffalo Bill and for everybody who's seen the movie, he's murdering women because he wants to metamorphosize into a woman, so he's killing them to wear their skin. And it's based on a real guy and that existed in the Annals of serial Killers. And then the other one is Hannibal Elector and he's killing them to eat them right. Neither of those characters represents the real serial killer in my mind. As scary as they are, you know, you've got a creepy, brilliant psychiatrist and then you've got the weird guy with the van with the creepy house on the hill. Real serial killers are scarier than that. They're the guy that could be in line in front of you at a Starbucks and you'd never know. And there's this myth out there that I bought into very much when I started homicide that serial killers are the product of abuse, you know, like the character Buffalo Bill, like he'd been horribly abused as a child, and you almost have this built in sympathy. And one of the questions you hear over and over again is what in God's name could make somebody do that? Like what trauma did they go through to make them hate women that much? And the creepy thing about it is most serial killers, in my experience, weren't traumatized as kids. They were spoiled more often than not. And they do it because they like it. They sexually get off on it, and it's fun to them, and they tend to have success. They tend to be employed. A lot of them are married, a lot of them are professionals. And you know, Rodney o'calla has a case that I get into in the book. He was on the yearbook committee. He had a genius level IQ. He was in a really good high school. He had a girlfriend, he was a cross country varsity letterman.

He made it onto a TV dating show.

He made it onto a TV dating show.

Literally the guy.

Literally the guy.

Went on the Dating Game in nineteen seventy seven and won the dating game because he was charming, you know. And this guy had a mensa level IQ, just like Ted Bundy, very very similar like charming, smart guy that people liked. He's handsome, he had plenty of success with women, He had girlfriends, he had sexual relationships that were normal. That's the fascinating thing about serial killers, you know. And of course everybody's an individual and they're all a little bit different. But when you look over and over again. I talked a little bit about Jack the Ripper in my book, and the reason why Jack the Ripper was never caught, I will tell you right now, is because Jack the Ripper walked out into White Chapel, London in the eighteen eighties and it immediately blended with everybody else, and that's why they never caught him, because he wasn't that creepy guy with the house on the hill. He was just like everybody else. He's probably a professional. He's probably literally an English gentleman who could walk out with a cane having just butchered as victims and aroused zero suspicion. We have one on the East coast right now and he's just charged by a guy named Rex Huerman, also known as the Gilgo Beach Killer, and that one is fascinating, and he's presumed in a cent but that is almost one of the first post DNA if he's guilty serial killers, because they made him with mitochondrial DNA, which is DNA from hairs, not from nuclear DNA, which is things like blood or sperm or something that was more of the traditional DNA. But a lot of the serial killers also they're arrogant, and Rodney Alcalo is one they want to defend themselves.

Went on the Dating Game in nineteen seventy seven and won the dating game because he was charming, you know. And this guy had a mensa level IQ, just like Ted Bundy, very very similar like charming, smart guy that people liked. He's handsome, he had plenty of success with women, He had girlfriends, he had sexual relationships that were normal. That's the fascinating thing about serial killers, you know. And of course everybody's an individual and they're all a little bit different. But when you look over and over again. I talked a little bit about Jack the Ripper in my book, and the reason why Jack the Ripper was never caught, I will tell you right now, is because Jack the Ripper walked out into White Chapel, London in the eighteen eighties and it immediately blended with everybody else, and that's why they never caught him, because he wasn't that creepy guy with the house on the hill. He was just like everybody else. He's probably a professional. He's probably literally an English gentleman who could walk out with a cane having just butchered as victims and aroused zero suspicion. We have one on the East coast right now and he's just charged by a guy named Rex Huerman, also known as the Gilgo Beach Killer, and that one is fascinating, and he's presumed in a cent but that is almost one of the first post DNA if he's guilty serial killers, because they made him with mitochondrial DNA, which is DNA from hairs, not from nuclear DNA, which is things like blood or sperm or something that was more of the traditional DNA. But a lot of the serial killers also they're arrogant, and Rodney Alcalo is one they want to defend themselves.

This was fascinating reading about your experience with this because he gets up on the stand and basically he's his own lawyer. Yes, cross examining victims.

This was fascinating reading about your experience with this because he gets up on the stand and basically he's his own lawyer. Yes, cross examining victims.

He cross examined the mother of Robin Samso, who is a twelve year old girl that he kidnapped, raped, and murdered in nineteen seventy nine. It's fascinating. They want to represent themselves, just like Ted Bunny did. Ted Bunny represented himself. But whatever disconnects them from humanity that gives them that ability to torture people to death for sexual gratification. They also seem to have a hard time reading the room. So his cross examination of Robin's mother and her life was destroyed by that murder. The apoplectic grief that a victim's mother goes through when their daughter or son, you know, even adult daughter or son is murdered, Their life is never the same. And for Robin's mother, it was very, very sad, and she had to go through that. The case got reversed twice, so by the time I had it, it was the third trial for that murder, and then we had DNA hits on a bunch more. But he cross examined that woman, and his cross was technically pretty good, Like he learned the form of the questions. I mean, the guy was literally is a certified genius, so he learned how to ask a question correctly. He learned the form of the question, his command of the rules of evidence was as good as most lawyers. I mean, he had nothing to do but learn that. So technically it's great, but what the jury saw. What they saw was the horror of this man who raped and murdered her twelve year old daughter, calling her a liar, you know. And it was the same thing with Ted Bondi before his execution. He was convicted. He represented himself. And it's a fascinating thing about serial killers. I'm actually working on our second book right now, and it's all about serial killers.

He cross examined the mother of Robin Samso, who is a twelve year old girl that he kidnapped, raped, and murdered in nineteen seventy nine. It's fascinating. They want to represent themselves, just like Ted Bunny did. Ted Bunny represented himself. But whatever disconnects them from humanity that gives them that ability to torture people to death for sexual gratification. They also seem to have a hard time reading the room. So his cross examination of Robin's mother and her life was destroyed by that murder. The apoplectic grief that a victim's mother goes through when their daughter or son, you know, even adult daughter or son is murdered, Their life is never the same. And for Robin's mother, it was very, very sad, and she had to go through that. The case got reversed twice, so by the time I had it, it was the third trial for that murder, and then we had DNA hits on a bunch more. But he cross examined that woman, and his cross was technically pretty good, Like he learned the form of the questions. I mean, the guy was literally is a certified genius, so he learned how to ask a question correctly. He learned the form of the question, his command of the rules of evidence was as good as most lawyers. I mean, he had nothing to do but learn that. So technically it's great, but what the jury saw. What they saw was the horror of this man who raped and murdered her twelve year old daughter, calling her a liar, you know. And it was the same thing with Ted Bondi before his execution. He was convicted. He represented himself. And it's a fascinating thing about serial killers. I'm actually working on our second book right now, and it's all about serial killers.

I was so fascinated.

I was so fascinated.

I prosecuted thirteen people that technically met the FBI definition, but I had six true blue serial killers in my seventeen years. It's almost like the same.

I prosecuted thirteen people that technically met the FBI definition, but I had six true blue serial killers in my seventeen years. It's almost like the same.

Guy, just in different bodies.

Guy, just in different bodies.

It's fascinating, and I'm not religious, but those guys are evil and they love to inflict pain and they get off on that. You'll have a caseload full of murders that it's, you know, the greatest hits over and over again. It's anger, jealousy, drunk, dispute over and over. And then you got somebody who does it for fun because they enjoy it, and it's a totally different kind of investigation. But another thing that's fascinating about that, from the perspective of a prosecutor, most murders are one offs to spete between neighbors. The neighbor's never going to kill anybody again drunken bar fight. I'm not saying you should have any sympathy for anybody that beats somebody to death in a bar Chances are they're not going to do it again, especially if they're arrested and they go through all that serial killers when you try one of those cases, the price of failure on a normal murder is injustice right, the families denied justice, killer gets away with it, and all that is horrible. The price of failure when you're dealing with a serial killer in an investigation or trial is you are guaranteed one hundred percent somebody will die in the future and they're probably going to be tortured to death, and if you fail, that's what's.

It's fascinating, and I'm not religious, but those guys are evil and they love to inflict pain and they get off on that. You'll have a caseload full of murders that it's, you know, the greatest hits over and over again. It's anger, jealousy, drunk, dispute over and over. And then you got somebody who does it for fun because they enjoy it, and it's a totally different kind of investigation. But another thing that's fascinating about that, from the perspective of a prosecutor, most murders are one offs to spete between neighbors. The neighbor's never going to kill anybody again drunken bar fight. I'm not saying you should have any sympathy for anybody that beats somebody to death in a bar Chances are they're not going to do it again, especially if they're arrested and they go through all that serial killers when you try one of those cases, the price of failure on a normal murder is injustice right, the families denied justice, killer gets away with it, and all that is horrible. The price of failure when you're dealing with a serial killer in an investigation or trial is you are guaranteed one hundred percent somebody will die in the future and they're probably going to be tortured to death, and if you fail, that's what's.

Going to happen.

Going to happen.

The pressure there is pretty intense. I had a case like that where I had a guy named Alejandro Ovolos. The first death penalty case I worked on in the unit, a six year old girl was kidnapped and brutally raped and murdered, and that guy was acquitted on a series of child molests about a year and a half before in a different county, And that was an example of as a prosecutor, if you fail and you got a guy like that, somebody innocent is going to die. So that's one of the things about serial killers is the stakes are very very high. You have a huge responsibility and you want to do it right, not only for the families of the people that were victimized, but also the people out there that are going to be victimized if you lose.

The pressure there is pretty intense. I had a case like that where I had a guy named Alejandro Ovolos. The first death penalty case I worked on in the unit, a six year old girl was kidnapped and brutally raped and murdered, and that guy was acquitted on a series of child molests about a year and a half before in a different county, And that was an example of as a prosecutor, if you fail and you got a guy like that, somebody innocent is going to die. So that's one of the things about serial killers is the stakes are very very high. You have a huge responsibility and you want to do it right, not only for the families of the people that were victimized, but also the people out there that are going to be victimized if you lose.

And writting a call was.

And writting a call was.

Interesting because in nineteen sixty eight, he kidnapped and raped, an almost murdered an eight year old girl named Tali Shapiro who was walking to school and he ran out the back of the house. A Kiro police officer went up, saving her and he performed brook life saving measures. She's in a coma for thirty two days. It was one of these situations where it was like chase the fleeing bad guy or save the dying little girl. And he made the right call. He saved the little girl, but I'll call it got away, so he gets caught several years later working in an all girls summer camp, a sleepway camp in Vermont, and two of the campers recognize.

Interesting because in nineteen sixty eight, he kidnapped and raped, an almost murdered an eight year old girl named Tali Shapiro who was walking to school and he ran out the back of the house. A Kiro police officer went up, saving her and he performed brook life saving measures. She's in a coma for thirty two days. It was one of these situations where it was like chase the fleeing bad guy or save the dying little girl. And he made the right call. He saved the little girl, but I'll call it got away, so he gets caught several years later working in an all girls summer camp, a sleepway camp in Vermont, and two of the campers recognize.

Him from the FBI photo.

Him from the FBI photo.

Anyway, they catch him, he gets extradited, he gets convicted of that, but the prosecutor gave him a simple child molest so he was released by the California Department of Corrections after only thirty four months. So imagine that he's that don't take rides from strangers guys, gets a six year old girl, rapes her, almost kills her, and he's released after thirty four months. And my lead detective on that is again Craig Robinson. He's a superityguard judge now and he's absolutely brilliant. And when we were working on they'll.

Anyway, they catch him, he gets extradited, he gets convicted of that, but the prosecutor gave him a simple child molest so he was released by the California Department of Corrections after only thirty four months. So imagine that he's that don't take rides from strangers guys, gets a six year old girl, rapes her, almost kills her, and he's released after thirty four months. And my lead detective on that is again Craig Robinson. He's a superityguard judge now and he's absolutely brilliant. And when we were working on they'll.

Call a trial.

Call a trial.

His estimate, the other detectives who worked on other cases moulding him agree probably killed one hundred people and it was almost all of them after his release.

His estimate, the other detectives who worked on other cases moulding him agree probably killed one hundred people and it was almost all of them after his release.

That's insane.

That's insane.

Yeah, it's an example of the system really failing those victims. So there's lessons for people to learn.

Yeah, it's an example of the system really failing those victims. So there's lessons for people to learn.

And as you say, it's another example of just how much high pressure responsibility there is in your position. You explore two DV murder cases in detail in your book. The other one is one that many will remember. It was made famous by the podcast Dirty John John me and for those not across the story, he was an online dating con man. He pursued relationships with women to extort them. How did you become involved in that case?

And as you say, it's another example of just how much high pressure responsibility there is in your position. You explore two DV murder cases in detail in your book. The other one is one that many will remember. It was made famous by the podcast Dirty John John me and for those not across the story, he was an online dating con man. He pursued relationships with women to extort them. How did you become involved in that case?

So that was a Newport Beach case. What happened on that? For those of you don't know it, That podcast is phenomenal. So it was done by a friend of mine named Chris Gofford with the Los Angeles Times and Connie Britten and Eric Banner who's an Aussie. They did a multi part series on that that shows this what is it, The Tender Swindler on Netflix right now. Yep, Dirty John was sort of the original of that. And you got this guy who was using online dating to find vulnerable women and he would target older women with money and he would charm his way into their life and into their bed, and they would fall in love with them and then his nightmare side would come out. He portrayed himself essentially as an anesthesiologist, as a doctor. You know, he would show up for dates wearing scrubs, and he knew how to talk to talk because he was actually a nurse an esthetist before he lost his license in Michigan, and he got involved with this woman, Debora Newell, whose daughter Tara Nuwell is one of my favorite humans on the planet Earth, and we've become friends since this. And essentially, once their relationship went south and she realized that he was a con man and a monster, she was trying to divorce him, and Tara was walking her dog, who was an Australian shepherd. All these Aussie connections. Australian shepherd didn't Cash and they're walking through the parking lot at Newport Beach and it really is like something out of a movie. She gets attacked from behind by this big, giant guy with a knife and she realizes who it is. It's John Meehan. It's her stepdad basically, and he's got a knife. He stabbed her multiple times, and she weighs about one hundred pounds and Cash, the Assie shepherd, bites him. She's fighting somehow, She kicks the knife out of his hand, picks up the knife, and she's a Walking Dead fan, so she knows how to dispatch a monster, right, so what are you doing?

So that was a Newport Beach case. What happened on that? For those of you don't know it, That podcast is phenomenal. So it was done by a friend of mine named Chris Gofford with the Los Angeles Times and Connie Britten and Eric Banner who's an Aussie. They did a multi part series on that that shows this what is it, The Tender Swindler on Netflix right now. Yep, Dirty John was sort of the original of that. And you got this guy who was using online dating to find vulnerable women and he would target older women with money and he would charm his way into their life and into their bed, and they would fall in love with them and then his nightmare side would come out. He portrayed himself essentially as an anesthesiologist, as a doctor. You know, he would show up for dates wearing scrubs, and he knew how to talk to talk because he was actually a nurse an esthetist before he lost his license in Michigan, and he got involved with this woman, Debora Newell, whose daughter Tara Nuwell is one of my favorite humans on the planet Earth, and we've become friends since this. And essentially, once their relationship went south and she realized that he was a con man and a monster, she was trying to divorce him, and Tara was walking her dog, who was an Australian shepherd. All these Aussie connections. Australian shepherd didn't Cash and they're walking through the parking lot at Newport Beach and it really is like something out of a movie. She gets attacked from behind by this big, giant guy with a knife and she realizes who it is. It's John Meehan. It's her stepdad basically, and he's got a knife. He stabbed her multiple times, and she weighs about one hundred pounds and Cash, the Assie shepherd, bites him. She's fighting somehow, She kicks the knife out of his hand, picks up the knife, and she's a Walking Dead fan, so she knows how to dispatch a monster, right, so what are you doing?

Walking Dead?

Walking Dead?

She stabs him right in the eyeball and kills him. And inside the van that he was trying to pull her into, it was what detectives described as a kill kid. There was duct tape, handcuffs, there was a gun, there was even poison in there. So he was going to kill her and she fought back. And this is an athletic guy who weighed about two hundred and forty pounds, big strapping man and crazy, angry and cash the dog saved her and then she saved herself. Just it's an amazing story.

She stabs him right in the eyeball and kills him. And inside the van that he was trying to pull her into, it was what detectives described as a kill kid. There was duct tape, handcuffs, there was a gun, there was even poison in there. So he was going to kill her and she fought back. And this is an athletic guy who weighed about two hundred and forty pounds, big strapping man and crazy, angry and cash the dog saved her and then she saved herself. Just it's an amazing story.

And you came into the case on terror's side.

And you came into the case on terror's side.

I have to review every homicide that happens. My cities were Irvine, Newport Beach, Coast, Mesa, and Laguna Beach, California. So because it's a vertical unit, it means any murders that happened in those cities, I get the call, I'd go with my investigator and I would help.

I have to review every homicide that happens. My cities were Irvine, Newport Beach, Coast, Mesa, and Laguna Beach, California. So because it's a vertical unit, it means any murders that happened in those cities, I get the call, I'd go with my investigator and I would help.

Detectives work the case up from the very beginning.

Detectives work the case up from the very beginning.

So that was one where clearly in my mind it was self defense and the detective's minds it was self defense. But you have to go through the process of objectively reviewing the evidence and finding out everything we can about who he was, who she was, you know, and putting it together. Because there are murders, some of which I talk about in my book that at the beginning they look like one thing and.

So that was one where clearly in my mind it was self defense and the detective's minds it was self defense. But you have to go through the process of objectively reviewing the evidence and finding out everything we can about who he was, who she was, you know, and putting it together. Because there are murders, some of which I talk about in my book that at the beginning they look like one thing and.

Later it turns out to be completely.

Later it turns out to be completely.

Different, and you got to really be careful, of course, because you're talking about the life of the human beings. But that was one that the deeper we looked, the bigger monster Mihan appeared to be, and.

Different, and you got to really be careful, of course, because you're talking about the life of the human beings. But that was one that the deeper we looked, the bigger monster Mihan appeared to be, and.

Just the story just got crazy.

Just the story just got crazy.

So that's one where at the end of it, when we formally cleared her, I really thought that we needed to share that one with the world. That's one of the few cases that truly, you know, when you were homicides, you see a lot of really sad things, and that was the happiest ending I encountered in almost two decades doing that work.

So that's one where at the end of it, when we formally cleared her, I really thought that we needed to share that one with the world. That's one of the few cases that truly, you know, when you were homicides, you see a lot of really sad things, and that was the happiest ending I encountered in almost two decades doing that work.

So to talk about DV more generally domestic violence murder, you talk about it taking up half your caseload at any one time, and it's two often women that are dying at the hands of men. It's a topic that we talk about a lot on this podcast. What is your opinion on that? How do we improve those statistics?

So to talk about DV more generally domestic violence murder, you talk about it taking up half your caseload at any one time, and it's two often women that are dying at the hands of men. It's a topic that we talk about a lot on this podcast. What is your opinion on that? How do we improve those statistics?

One of the tragic things about those domestic violence cases is that you know, among the family and friends of the victim, oftentimes they can see it coming, and oftentimes you wind up put the situation where the woman as financially dependent on the man and they might have a couple of kids together, and alcohol or drugs is almost always a actor in that. But the early signs are a parent almost right away.

One of the tragic things about those domestic violence cases is that you know, among the family and friends of the victim, oftentimes they can see it coming, and oftentimes you wind up put the situation where the woman as financially dependent on the man and they might have a couple of kids together, and alcohol or drugs is almost always a actor in that. But the early signs are a parent almost right away.

You know.

You know.

I actually even read a little segment on this because that was an online dating case, and you know, post COVID, everybody who's single has been online. I think that one of the things that women really have to be cognizant of they meet a man at a wedding or at work where there's this sort of natural vetting process where you have friends in common. I think that the biggest red flag for a lot of women should be control. You've got a guy who's jealous early on, when he's got a problem with the men you might hang out with at work or even like and I know this is controversial along some men, but like a positive relationship with an ex husband or an ex boyfriend. Men that have a big problem with that are the same ones that oftentimes will want to isolate a woman from her friends and family and that controlling personality. Those are the types of guys that when they get drunk, they'll get physical and it's a cycle. Then they'll be super apologetic and the woman doesn't want to blow up her own life and I really legitimately love the guy. But you see that progress over time. So it'll start with grabbing a woman by the arm and then pretty soon it turns into a push when you get in to hit somebody that hits. I think that the danger of online dating is that natural vetting. Like if you meet somebody through mutual friends, they know most of the skeletons in the closet of the person they're setting you up with, whether it's a man or a woman. But you know, with online dating, we're really on our own and we learn. You know, on one hand, it's kind of cool because you meet somebody in the relationship is really just between the two of you and you can meet each other's friends. But on the other hand, you can be with a charming psycho like John Meehan, and it's very easy to get sucked into that if you're not careful. And there's plenty of guys that aren't going to murder you that are just going to be really terrible boyfriends or husbands. And I think that sense of control, jealousy, insecurity, all of those things are things that I think women should be very careful about.

I actually even read a little segment on this because that was an online dating case, and you know, post COVID, everybody who's single has been online. I think that one of the things that women really have to be cognizant of they meet a man at a wedding or at work where there's this sort of natural vetting process where you have friends in common. I think that the biggest red flag for a lot of women should be control. You've got a guy who's jealous early on, when he's got a problem with the men you might hang out with at work or even like and I know this is controversial along some men, but like a positive relationship with an ex husband or an ex boyfriend. Men that have a big problem with that are the same ones that oftentimes will want to isolate a woman from her friends and family and that controlling personality. Those are the types of guys that when they get drunk, they'll get physical and it's a cycle. Then they'll be super apologetic and the woman doesn't want to blow up her own life and I really legitimately love the guy. But you see that progress over time. So it'll start with grabbing a woman by the arm and then pretty soon it turns into a push when you get in to hit somebody that hits. I think that the danger of online dating is that natural vetting. Like if you meet somebody through mutual friends, they know most of the skeletons in the closet of the person they're setting you up with, whether it's a man or a woman. But you know, with online dating, we're really on our own and we learn. You know, on one hand, it's kind of cool because you meet somebody in the relationship is really just between the two of you and you can meet each other's friends. But on the other hand, you can be with a charming psycho like John Meehan, and it's very easy to get sucked into that if you're not careful. And there's plenty of guys that aren't going to murder you that are just going to be really terrible boyfriends or husbands. And I think that sense of control, jealousy, insecurity, all of those things are things that I think women should be very careful about.

Red flags, Yeah, they're red flagged. I know you've been retired now since twenty nineteen. Do you miss it or do you feel like you have a little bit more space to breathe now?

Red flags, Yeah, they're red flagged. I know you've been retired now since twenty nineteen. Do you miss it or do you feel like you have a little bit more space to breathe now?

All right, now, it's twisted as it sounds. I miss it every day. Really, I missed my team.

All right, now, it's twisted as it sounds. I miss it every day. Really, I missed my team.

I work with some of the most wonderful people. The crime lab personnel to show up at three in the morning, in the middle of the night are some of the best humans I've ever encountered. And the detectives, the men and women I worked with the law enforcement detectives and police in the United States right now, I don't know how it is an honest but they've had a really rough time in the last few years after George Floyd. And these are people that are in my experience, that are underpaid. I wish everybody could see what I see. You know, they haven't eaten in twelve hours and they're working a scene without complaint. A lot of times have to stand in the rain, we're waiting for warrance to get signed by a judge, and you know they The model in Orange County is the prosecutor goes out at the time of the murder and then assigned detective stays with the case all the way through to the end of trial. So you're I'm there with them reviewing search warrants the night it happens. They're sitting next to me at trial, and the jury comes in with a verdict and then it's sentencing. So you get this very close working relationship with them. They're amazing. I miss them every day. Seventeen years is a long time, but yeah, I do.

I work with some of the most wonderful people. The crime lab personnel to show up at three in the morning, in the middle of the night are some of the best humans I've ever encountered. And the detectives, the men and women I worked with the law enforcement detectives and police in the United States right now, I don't know how it is an honest but they've had a really rough time in the last few years after George Floyd. And these are people that are in my experience, that are underpaid. I wish everybody could see what I see. You know, they haven't eaten in twelve hours and they're working a scene without complaint. A lot of times have to stand in the rain, we're waiting for warrance to get signed by a judge, and you know they The model in Orange County is the prosecutor goes out at the time of the murder and then assigned detective stays with the case all the way through to the end of trial. So you're I'm there with them reviewing search warrants the night it happens. They're sitting next to me at trial, and the jury comes in with a verdict and then it's sentencing. So you get this very close working relationship with them. They're amazing. I miss them every day. Seventeen years is a long time, but yeah, I do.

I miss it.

I miss it.

And that's what you're hoping. I guess people get from your book to see that insider perspective, not just the crimes, but the people like you who dedicate their life, who sacrifice so much to make sure these bad people are put behind bars.