Trillions“The House That Jack Bogle Built” is alive and well in sleepy Malvern, Pennsylvania. So far this year, the asset management firm that pioneered low-cost investing—so much so that “beta” is almost free now—has hoovered up another $256 billion of inflows into its US exchange-traded funds. But as the company nears its 50th anniversary, can it continue to succeed without changing its tried-and-true ways?
On this episode of Trillions, Eric Balchunas and Joel Weber speak with Vanguard’s Janel Jackson, head of bank and institutional in the company’s Financial Advisor Services division. They discuss her time at Vanguard, how she discovered the power of ETFs, why the company remains “true to label” despite the industry’s love of “spicy” products and even where Vanguard might look to push the envelope.
Woke no trillions.
I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Belchernas.
Eric, we have a guest who we've been trying to get on the podcast for a while, and she kept getting promoted and pushing us off. But finally we have her today.
Yeah, I mean we got her before she's running the whole company, which I'm sure will happen one day. But this person has come on ETFIQ a few times and I bump into her here and there. I saw her once at Vanguard. I go to Vanguard like every like six months or so for something, and I saw it the women in ETF's anniversary event, and just really always fun to talk to her. She's I don't know, I just find that she sees Vanguard in a unique way.
Yet she works there and has worked there for a while.
Yeah, and has worked there for a while, And so Vanguard is a little bit of a mystery to a lot of people. I mean, we see the flows, Joel, this year, they're gonna already, you know, they've taken in two hundred and fifty six billion into their ETFs. That's more than a billion a day. Only black Rock is close. And then the two of them are three times more than any other issuer. I mean, it's just ridiculous. The fish are jumping in the boat there, and so we see the numbers, we see the flows, but they're not out and about that much. And so to actually talk to somebody there about what's kind of going on inside and how it feels to be like looking at all this from the inside rather than the outside like us, I thought that would be fun.
We're talking about Jenelle Jackson, who's the head of Bank and Institutional Financial Advisor Services. That's a big title. She was previously global ahead of ETF Capital Markets. So this is a VIP for sure, this time on trillions inside Vanguard with Janell Jackson. Jenelle, welcome to the program.
Thank you for having me. That was quite a build up there, guys.
No pressure, no pressure, no pressure. Oh we're going to put that on the shelf. Thank you for joining us. Let's just talk about you and your journey through this little industry and how you ended up being an ETF rain maker.
All right now, I feel like I might be able to live up to the pressure because I feel like this is a pretty fun story and I hope everyone else not it does as well. Otherwise it's a podcast, right, so you can just speed right through it. But I've been in the industry for a couple of decades. I know it doesn't look that way, or at least I hope it doesn't look that way. But I started my career working for a bank doing manager research, so I was on the other side of the table from where my clients are now. I'm now in a sales role where my clients are those institutions, and my journey has been pretty organic from starting in that manager research type of seat. So back then, I was looking at what other portfolio managers were doing to run products, determining how they would best suit our investors, and whether or not we would approve those products for our platform so that clients would have access to them. I went to business school. I always wanted to be a portfolio manager. I joined Vanguard. They've got this really great program for folks who are straight out of business school called the NBA Leadership Development Program. So I went through three rotations pretty rapidly over an eighteen month period. So that's three of my Vanguard jobs that I've had in the past twelve years. One was again on the due diligent side of things, but this time seeing that through the Vanguard lens. The other was working with our institutional clients and then one back in research. So I launched into our institutional advice group after that. So it's bringing together that research background, getting closer to clients and Eric will love this. But I was in that role for about five months when a post went up internally for a chief of staff to the Chief Investment Officer, and so I applied for that role. At the time, our CIO was Tim Buckley, who's our former CEO. So I got to work for Tim as his chief of staff for three years, which is pretty long for a chief of staff. It's usually like an eighteen to twenty four month thing. And I say it's because Tim enjoyed working with me so much, and he says it's because I needed that much development. So the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Subsequent to that role, I went to our Australia office to run funds. So my whole career I had done research on running funds, talking to clients about funds, and then I got my own chance to touch the money. So I was in our quantitative equity group running factor multi asset and alpha products, at which point I came back to the US after a couple of years running our ETF Capital Markets team.
That's when I first met Eric.
A couple years in that role, and then I moved to lead our global ETF Capital Markets team, which includes our broker relationships and our index relationships, and then transitioned into the role that I am in today a few months ago. So it's kind of been like two years, two years, two years, two years. But I think it's just been a really organic process in how we develop people at Vanguard.
So let me get this straight. You were in Malvern and they sent you to Australia and then you came back to Malvern.
Malvern, Melvin to Malvern.
Yeah, you couldn't have You could have been doing this in Australia.
Maybe I'll go back some day.
Okay, Vanger is pretty big, it's in the country.
Yeah, I'm just saying that seems like a big dream job and a dream location. So so talk to us about Malvern. What's it what's it feel like there? Eric and I have been, but what's it feel like for for somebody who's been with the company for so long?
Man Malvern feels like the core of our culture. You know, we talk about our mission and we talk about putting clients first, and I think every organization says, hey, what sets us apart is our people and our mission. But when you get here, you really feel it. It almost feels like a college campus to me, and we all go to the same school and we're all, you know, cheering for the same team. And when you get to campus, you just feel that. And the funny thing is when you go to our offices anywhere they are in the world, it feels the exact same way. People are here to help each other, we're here to help our clients. It attracts a certain type of person to work here because of the mission. So I really think it's a happy place. There's a lot of people here working really hard, but at the end of the day, I think we're all very focused on helping investors reach their goal. So how does somebody get to retirement and feel comfortable. How do people think about their goals and saving for their children's education? You know, those are the things that make me skip out to my car at the end of the day feeling like I'm a part of that.
Yeah, you know.
And by the way, you know, Malvern is right next door to Valley Forge, which was the original office. You know, Bogel loved that. I think he even kept Valley Forge as a po box for a while so they can say they're in Valley Forge because of that's where the US Revolutionary Army was on, like really in their last legs, like they were probably about to just rough winter. Yeah, and that's where they kind of rose up in Bogel. He loved that, man, he was so into that. But I also think, like you're walking around this campus. I've been there. It is like a campus. There's people walking around. Now, the fish jump in the boat. There's flows coming in every day. Is I mean, I guess is that does the mood just is it just a great mood because there's always inflows.
I mean, I it does seem like it's a pretty happy like you.
Never see off flows, Joel. They have never seen. They don't even know what it's like. In two thousand and eight, they took in money every month.
The thing of here is, you know, it's it's a very humble culture. We think about it in the way that like, hey, this isn't our money. We're stewards of this capital for others, we're owned by our shareholders, so we're coming in. We're working hard every day to make sure that we're doing the right things for clients. So yeah, I hope everybody is happy, But we definitely don't take that success for granted. We're always being thoughtful about the future, about opportunities for growth, and about the best ways that we.
Can serve our clients.
But if I could take a second to go back to like how I think about my career, because I know some people are probably like, WHOA, she's just skipping around the place. But I think about this way of developing expertise akin to like the hospitality industry. So when I describe it to people, it's like, hey, I started my career doing research, which is akin to thinking through recipes, like working in a restaurant. So I'm helping somebody come up with the menu. Then you know, as a portfolio manager, I move into the kitchen and now I'm starting to cook up the things.
Now moving into sales.
All right, I'm like the may or d at the front of the house, and my team is bringing out the meals to clients, our patrons and hoping that they're happy with that we're offering it to them at a low cost. But the tricky thing now is that, you know, we sit on a street of restaurants and a lot of other restaurants are cooking up the same things we are, and some of those restaurants, Eric, are putting hot sauce on their meals. And so how do we keep clients coming back to us by making sure we have what they want that fits into, you know, a way that we think about the ingredients that we're experts and delivering. And so I just view my career as it's very organic and I feel like all of those opportunities that I've had to touch and lead different teams have helped me be successful over time and in the role that I'm in today.
We do talk about hot sauce a lot. And tip to Eric, what is the spiciest offering in Vanguard's portfolio?
Do you think, hmmm, spiciest offering in our portfolio? So I'm probably going I feel like this is the leading question.
No, it's just a question, just a question.
The things that we.
Think of are spicy, Like we still serve up with a glass of milk. So if you think about something like high old bonds, you know, and actively managed high old bond fund.
We're gonna have a quality.
Tilt on a product like that, so it's not gonna be the junkiest of the junk, but I'll still get you the exposure that you want in a safer way. So that's your hot sauce with a cup of milk.
I have a story about this real quick. So I wrote a note once. When you work at the quantitative group, you guys put out these factorytfs about like eight nine years ago, and they equal weighted, which jacks up the vall. And so this was the most volatile thing Vanguard ever put out. It was actively managed volatile factor stuff. At the time, everybody was putting stuff like this out. And I wrote a note that said, Vanguard serves up the hot sauce, but hold the bogel something like that. He used that in one of his books. He goes, Bloomberg knew how I felt about it. And so even something like that, it was like an equal weighted quality atf You know, there's the DNA of like s and P five hundred beta total market and then Vanguard. I feel like this is just my opinion. I'd like to get your take on it. You do kind of push the edges a little, you know, there's the Boglian DNA. Then there are places private equity China. There are definitely places that I think Vanguard goes that pushed the envelope a bit, but not anywhere near the way other issuers are pushing the envelope into the more hot sauce areas. Do you notice that, like, is there a constant push against the edges to see how far you guys can go?
You know, I would say that what our product lineup has evolved to be over time has just been aligned.
To the evolution of markets.
So we've had the same approach to product philosophy for our entire history, and we really focus on four things when it comes to product development. And I get questions all the time, like when is Vanguard going to launch an XYZ fund? And you know, I always take people back to our product philosophy around how we develop products.
So is there enduring investment merit?
And this is usually the one where people get hung up the most, like is this something that's been rooted in academics that it makes sense for a client's portfolio? You know, does it fill a long term need for a target client? Like that's number two, So enduring investment merit, long term investment need, So not any kind of tactical, trendy cool things that are happening right now, but things that will be enduring over time. You know, can we deliver this solution at a competitive advantage? Sometimes we're the best at things and that's where we like to produce products and where we can't do it or where we feel like it's a stretch for us from you know, how we think about portfolio management. We're not going to go there. And is it feasible to launch the product? So this is the boring stuff like regulatory operational hiccups, But it really always goes back to that first line. The first two really is there enduring investment merit around this? Has the research been done? Doesn't make sense? And number two, is it going to be something that is a solution that's going to have long term investment merit.
That's how we think about solutions for our client base.
Yeah, it's resulted in us, like you know, keeping a rake in the closet and the cash is just coming in and we rake it up.
That's kind of how it's been, and we like that.
When we bumped into each other in the one of the ship offices, I don't know name a ship type. It was in one of those what office does you work in capital markets? What was the name of the building?
Victory?
Victory. Yeah, so all the buildings are new after ships. That's another thing Bogel named is the whole company is named after a British worship that took down Napoleon. Anyway, if we look at this stuff, you sort of teased a little bit about this sort of trendy one thing that I've noticed as I've sort of become somewhat fluent in bitcoin. I spent the last year on Planet Bitcoin. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable now when we look at the growth of bitcoin, these ETFs have blown up, like ibid is now forty billion dollars. It's the top one percent of all ETFs. People will reply, it's like not enough for them to have like all this money, all time highs they get. They're still bothered by you. They're like, Vanguard, what's their problem? Why won't they bend the knee? There's a meme going around that has your ship logo, And then instead of Vanguard. It says, MGM, I not gonna make it, and the ship's like and the ship's breaking in half. Anyway, that's that's just do you think about this at all?
Do you care?
Is there any temptational I know Salim has basically kind of shot down that's the new CEO.
But that's Slim Ramsey who was on a trillion yeah, when he was at Blackrock before he made the transition.
But what does all that look like from afar? Or are you just insulated from all that noise?
You know what, It's a funny meme. I appreciate the feedback around products, so you know, hopefully there aren't too many more people jumping into my LinkedIn chats because of this, Like that does happen a lot. But yeah, I think we've talked about why we haven't entered that product space. But what I do think has been really cool is like you still see the vanguard effect there right, Like you kind of see these competitors that have fallen all over themselves to have the lowest cost product. And I think that even where we don't have a product, you can feel the vanguard influence. And so for clients who do want to, you know, leverage those types of products.
They're there.
I think there's plenty of competition. It looks like it's been a healthy year for those products. So yeah, I feel like we've done our job, even though we might not be directly, we've influenced what that looks like.
So basically, crypto Twitter, you're welcome. I like that. That's pretty good way to pivot from that to that.
I did not say that.
I think she was pretty clear about it.
Well, I saw I just sometimes I said LinkedIn you're welcome.
So you did hit on something there though. Seleem Ramji new CEO, and since you have interacted with previous CEOs, I'm curious previous CEOs at Van Gerd, I'm curious, how do you think he's going to make his mark and what's what's what's the plan?
Yeah, I think everybody's really excited that Seleema is here. He brings a host of knowledge to this organization. I will say, oh, I hope he doesn't fire me for this. But I think when he got here, we were all like, oh my goodness, there's a black, red guy here and you know he's running the ship.
But he's very thoughtful he's very warm.
I really like that, Like as a person, he's very warm. I think he has kind of looked at what's going on in the house and is thinking about his long term strategy. And what I'm most interested in is, you know, are we going to be more aggressive when it comes to product launches. You know, we've been pretty conservative, maybe a product or two here or there. I think there's some opportunities for us to think about, you know, what we can do, especially as it relates to active and ETFs and fixed income and ETFs, and I think those are areas of expertise that he brings to the top of the house. And so for me, I'm pretty excited about how he's thinking about the organization. We'll see what other impacts that he has beyond product, but I think that's the most exciting thing for me, especially as I'm getting closer to clients and they ask us questions like, Hey, why don't you have again X y Z product? And you know, as long as again it's lined to our investment philosophy, maybe we'll see some more products to come, as we have with you know, our recent active fixed income ETF launches and some of the work that we're doing with active muni eat.
Yeah.
So what we've noticed is that a lot of the recent products have been active actives having a bit of a renaissance in ETFs. It's not totally what it looks like. I think if you remove the buffers and some of the kind of we'll call it alternative active. You know, bond pickers, thought pickers definitely doing better than they used to. And I think it makes sense moving into active. I guess when when you're thinking about these products and active, Vanguard isn't really known for that. I think, you know, they're known for passive. And do you have to like educate them that you have active too, or do they they mostly know because they remember the mutual funds, because it does seem like, you know, Vanguard kind of basically got everybody to believe that active didn't add a lot of value. I mean, that was what again, I'll go back to Bogel. He spent many years doing that. Yet at the same time, your active funds grew to I don't know, one to two trillion dollars. I think you have an assets and active. How's that tension between you know, you're going to get these active ETFs out there, there's definitely a market for it, but you're also known for passive, so you're trying to sell like B and D, but also the ETFs trying to beat B and D.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is like a myth that I'm constantly dispelling. So yeah, we're we're an index powerhouse and an indexing pioneer. But you know, when you look back at the history of Vanguard and next year we'll be celebrating fifty years when the organization first started, all we offered was actively managed funds, so we're really rooted in active, and I think we've also had to dispel this myth around active versus passive, Like there's always been a role for both in a portfolio, but low cost has always been the Vanguard story. So even if you are going to active, be thoughtful about, you know, knowing what you own. You'll hear this a lot when you come to Vanguard next Eric that we're true to label, Like that's the new thing we say everywhere we go.
Trutally, they just look at what the title of a fund is.
Yeah, you have to look through the product, at the characteristics so that you know what you're getting instead of just what that headline is.
So when you look at a.
Fun name for a Vanguard product, when you look through with those characteristics, you'll find that we're true to label.
So fifty years, what are you guys gonna do? Are you gonna throw a big party? Or I could see.
Vanguard inviting himself before we even know Vanguard.
Knowing Vanguard, they're gonna have everyone bring in their own dish, you know what I mean? Because they're gonna spend like a very little money on it, because there is no money all the investors have byob.
Hey, look, we want to be doing our jobs.
If we had a big monster party for our fifty year, I don't know. Maybe we'll find some way to give something back to shareholders to celebrate fifty years there that would be pretty.
That would be on brandow that'd be true to label, true to label, boring but effective.
You're working your way off the invitees last year. I don't know about that.
All remain neutral throughout this, so keeping.
Keep me in the send the invite here. Wait, you got it?
Okay, So just on this active question though, because it does speak to sort of where the market is going and has gone, and you could put the bitcoin conversation, you could put the hot sauce conversation, and as elements of this, and yet there's this thing that is like you know to you know your true to label comment. How do you guys just look at innovation right, Like there's a lot of things that the market's going to do. When do you feel like you have to chase what the market's doing versus just like, we do what we do and we'll take our time and you know, assess our options accordingly.
Yeah, I think going back to the product philosophy, like we stay pretty disciplined around that, but I wouldn't say that we tuck our heads in the sand either, Like we're very conscious about how markets are evolving around us. We pay attention to all the products that are launched. We do a ton of research on products. That doesn't mean we always launch them or we're always aware of what's happening in the industry. So we might not launch the trendy products, but we know what they are. We know what our investor base wants and what they expect from us, and it's a two way street. So we try to meet clients where they are, but also in a way that's holistic to our philosophy and who we are.
Okay, Can I ask if you have product envy about anything that's in the marketplace that you wish you had in your portfolio? What would that be?
You guys are trying to get me in trouble, aren't you. I think there are a lot of cool things that are happening with alternative assets and bringing those things to the etf rapper. I don't know that those things are going to be successful, yeah, but that's definitely something that I'm keeping an eye on, you know, be it private equity or private credit. How are people thinking about structuring that into such a liquid instrument. I don't quite understand how that's gonna work yet, but if it does, I think that will be really neat to bring that downstream more to retail investors.
I'm with you.
This after digital assets. To me, this is the next new frontier State Street them an apollo. I hooked up Vanguard. I know you have an advisory service, and the advisory service I believe you have a relationship with a private equity firm to get some of your advisor clients that access. But that's different than packaging it into a liquid ETF. But that certainly is going to be something that I think is interesting down the road. I guess I was just also curious, like we all know Vanguard. It's like legendary company inside the bubble, but like out there in Malvern when you're like operating your regular life, do people know Vanguard? What's their reaction? Are they like a hometown hero in Malvern? Like, I'm just curious how how you how people respond that You're like, hey, I'm I'm pretty senior person at Vanguard. What do they say?
You know, I'll take this back to Australia when you know, I would be out and people would ask me what I do and I would tell them where I worked and they're like, what's that? What's Vanguard? And then I would tell them and they were like, oh shares, Like oh, you sell shares.
Share.
I can go to restate in the US, and once I say that I work here, people will either say thank you, or I'm a client, or you know, I appreciate the work that you do.
Like I don't think there's.
A lot of celebrities around here. I don't think you'll see somebody's face and recognize us. But we're here We're doing the work for our clients, and it's so great just to be walking in an airport somewhere and you know, you chat with somebody and they ask you what you do, and you tell them that you work here, and just to hear the appreciation in their voice and the thanks in their voice. Again, like, that's something that makes me so happy that I work here. You know, I could do this work at other organizations, but I really feel like our clients respect and value what we do every day, and in return, you know, I'm giving them the most that I have each and every day that I come here.
And I've obviously covered you guys a ton And the key ingredient for Vanguard to me isn't the index fun It's the mutual ownership structure. But when you say those three words, people's like eyes glaze over. You almost lost them just by saying the word mutual ownership structure. But it is the most powerful thing that has ever happened in the financial services industry in the last fifty years. It's like, when I go to see clients, I'm like, Vanguard is like the Big Bang, Like everybody has to now orbit around the fact that they made Beta free. But they didn't just make it free. It was a mutually owned company that slowly voted down to lower the fee year after year. How do you explain that unique structure that no one else has when you meet somebody who's maybe not in the industry.
Well, I mean, first of all, it sounds like you've been working in the back of the kitchen as well, so I think you know the end to end spectrum of all things Vanguard. You probably have a better answer for this one than I do. But you know, I would say that a lot of times people look at us and say we're boring, but we've been innovative, and I think this is one of those cases where you can see us having an innovative product structure that's provided our clients with enduring lif low cost investment vehicles for over two decades now, and we're confident that will be the case going forward. So we're happy that we've brought a tool to our clients that's been able to add value.
And when we talk about structures, obviously Bogel loved his TIFFs. This was traditional index fund, which was mutual funds, and you guys have a ton of assets in those Obviously, you have like seventy percent market share at index mutual funds, but with ETFs they seem like the future of Vanguard. Whenever you look at percent flows versus percent assets, ETFs punch above their weight every year. Are you guys really looking at this structure to be your future?
A and B.
Do you see any other structures that could challenge them, like direct indexing or tokenization which I can't help but editorialize I don't see either of those messing with the ETF for at least the decade DII in particular. But like, what's your take on the structures out there and like your future?
Well, first of all, I didn't know we were allowed to say MF on this podcast, but okay, we can talk mutual funds if you want to. I think that you know, it's all about investor preference for us, So yeah, we started with mutual funds. We built out our ETF business. Where I am in financial advisor services, you see a lot of preference for the ETF vehicle. You know where my counterparts are probably in our institutional business working with defined contribution plans, they probably still have a preference for MF, So I think they're still room for both. Where we've seen a lot more growth, for sure, has been on the ETF side of the house. Tokenization, I think is interesting. I think there's a lot of opportunity for operational efficiency for products regardless of the structure. So I think there's more to come there. But I don't know if it's going to revolutionize like product structure, if it's going to be more of an operational enhancement direct indexing, you know, we have an offer there. I think this is a unique solution for again, certain types of clients who may want to customize what their investments are. Who are you know, in a a bracket where they are being very thoughtful continuously about tax list harvesting, or they just want more insight and control over what securities that they own in a way that's structured and thoughtful. So I think there's a room for direct indexing. I don't know, if you know, when these solutions started coming out, they were like, Hey, this is the fun killer, this is the ETF killer. I don't know if we'll get to that point, but I think it's an interesting solution for a certain type of client.
As long as we're talking about Bogel a little bit you were at Vanguard while he was there, Eric and I came out and visited him once. Eric has written a book about him. Curious, what's your favorite memory of Jack Bogel oh Man.
I really loved first when I first started working here, which was twelve years ago, and I read all the Bogel books before I got here, and I knew he had an office on campus. But it's like it's like working with Beyonce in your office. So it's kind of like people would get so exciting when there would be a Bogel sighting. But the funny thing was he pretty much walked to the galley, which nautical theme is what we call our cafeteria. He walked to the galley every day, and he was so humble and would engage in conversation with anyone. He was never too busy, He was never too much of a rush to get his galley salader. I think Gally Peanut butter and jelly was his favorite.
But just this, Yeah, you guys have PBNJA with him.
Super humble, thoughtful person who was always accessible to crewe, which is what we call ourselves nautical term, and that is what I respected the most. Again, just bringing that like client centric culture and seeing it at the top of the organization is what really made that cascade down to the rest of us.
Yeah. Cool. I want to ask another question, because you know four A one case that's a place where Vanguard does a ton of business and especially in that m F world. What's it? What's it like? What's the Vanguard four A one K program look like JENNE for employees? Like just Vanguard top to bottom?
Yeah, yes, of course.
So we bring our low cost solutions to our employees, and I think that's important because if we're cooking it up, like we should probably eat our own cooking. I think we also, you know, from a regulatory standpoint, want to make sure that just like any other plan sponsor, we offer the best solutions to our employees, and we are thoughtful about like the manager search process and making sure that we have a lean lineup for our investors to use. I'd say we treat ourselves just like any other client, like we want to have the best products there for our crew to leverage, as they say, for their retirement goals as well. We also have really great benefits around our retirement savings plans.
So if anybody is looking for a job.
I hope the match is amazing.
It's impressive, well impressive.
When Vocals started this out, there was early in the early days, people were like, yeah, yeah, we're saving all these investors' money, but you know, we want to get a little something too, And so he created some programs internally that to help solve that because there is like, hey, we're doing God's work here, but you know, people go to business school, they want to make money too. There was always a little bit of a tension there, which I can understand. Speaking of that, I do think if Vanguard does have an achilles heel, it's customer service, and I was curious. I know that's a little out of your purview, but like, is that one of the focuses coming up or what can we can we expect to see a lot of resources put towards that in the future.
The answer to that is absolutely. I think.
There was an interesting article that came out on Salim's first day around our client experience, and you know, we've really been investing heavily in that space.
We listen to our clients, we hear the feedback. We're trying to leverage.
Lots of data that we have in our hands and lots of emerging technologies so that we can ahead of the game. We're not just trying to catch up when it comes to client experience. I think we all admit that we've fallen behind, but we've been working through technology modernization and I'd say we're most of the way there, and now it's the how do we kind of gain our footing back so that we're leaders in the industry when it comes to client experience. So that is definitely something that we're focused on. That's something that we are putting the right amount of resources towards, and something that in the coming years when I come here and chat with you guys on this podcast, hopefully we won't have to talk about because you'll be that impressed.
I'm in sales now, I can tell.
I can tell. All right. So last question one that we often ask folks, all this is going to be good favorite ETF ticker other than your own? So nothing that Vanguard does. What's your favorite ETF.
Ticker other than my own?
You can take some time, no rush.
I mean, I'm just gonna be silent until we run out of time on this podcast.
First time I think that's ever been the response just let the shot cloud go.
I think we have the most clever tippers when it comes to using romannumerals, So woo is my favorite.
It's five hundred.
Look, you guys have a lot going on, But could you tell is not one of them?
Could you tell that she works in sales? That was I wouldn't own.
I wouldn't claim that.
Yeah, who is kind of cool.
It's five hundred Roman numeral, but I mean that's we're going to get you a shirt.
And chill.
My my friend who's a heart doctor from college, that's his phrase. I saw him at the fiftieth birthday party, is.
Like woo and chill Man, Woo and chill. Anyway, on the merch, Janelle Jackson, thanks so much for joining us on Trillions.
Thank you for finally having me.
Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Baltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Bye
