One of the year’s hottest investments? Bitcoin, which has surged on exchange-traded fund adoption as well as the return of the “Trump trade.” One way to go especially big on that bet is two new leveraged ETFs: MSTX and MSTU, which are 2X MicroStrategy—a company that’s already a highly exposed Bitcoin proxy.

Both ETFs effectively give investors a 4X exposure to Bitcoin. If that sounds volatile, it is: MSTX is the most volatile ETF in the US. Consider this space the “ghost pepper” of hot sauces.

On this episode of Trillions, Eric Balchunas and Joel Weber speak with Sylvia Jablonski, the CEO and CIO of Defiance ETFs—the issuer behind MSTX. They discuss how the product came into existence, what the Trump trade has meant for inflows, why there’s a modest rivalry with MSTU already, how investors are using options on the product and what makes a good “ghost pepper.”