Get Ready for the Hottest Hot Sauce

Published Nov 7, 2024, 9:00 AM

One of the year’s hottest investments? Bitcoin, which has surged on exchange-traded fund adoption as well as the return of the “Trump trade.” One way to go especially big on that bet is two new leveraged ETFs: MSTX and MSTU, which are 2X MicroStrategy—a company that’s already a highly exposed Bitcoin proxy.

Both ETFs effectively give investors a 4X exposure to Bitcoin. If that sounds volatile, it is: MSTX is the most volatile ETF in the US. Consider this space the “ghost pepper” of hot sauces.

On this episode of Trillions, Eric Balchunas and Joel Weber speak with Sylvia Jablonski, the CEO and CIO of Defiance ETFs—the issuer behind MSTX. They discuss how the product came into existence, what the Trump trade has meant for inflows, why there’s a modest rivalry with MSTU already, how investors are using options on the product and what makes a good “ghost pepper.”

Welcome to trillions.

I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Balchunas.

Eric, lots of things happening in the world. You and I were talking about things that have happened this year that have been significant, though, and there's been, you know, for the most part, not that much volatility. But you want to one thing that has been really interesting since the beginning of the year, how bitcoin has just been on a tear. How much do you think ETFs have had to do with that?

Certainly, Look, I've i get booed at on Twitter when I tell the bitcoin people that bitcoin would be trading at thirty thousand dollars if warn't for the ETFs. So right now bitcoin's around seventy thousand, and they don't like to hear that. But I'm telling you, when black Rock filed for the ETF last June, it was like basically a year ago. It went up eighty percent on the anticipation. Then when it launched there was a little pullback, but it ripped further. So I think it's up something like forty percent since then, so it's eighty plus forty. A lot of the forty percent was based on how the ets were taking in money, and this past couple of weeks, it's been crazy. Like this whole area is to quote the Paul Abdul song two steps forward, one steps back, which I don't know if you guy, it's a deep cut from like.

The eighties right there. I know that I know the cut. What does it mean here? I'm gonna I want to hear you great question.

Ye I forgot I went too far off the highway. I don't know where I am.

Yeah. No, so.

That is really funny. That's naturally funny. I get what you're saying. Hold on, okay, now I'm gonna answer that question.

Yeah.

So what I mean is like there's like two or three weeks of like intense flow, and then there's a little pullback. Then there's like a week or two where there's some outflows. Then there's like two or three weeks or a month of inflows, and so it's two steps forward, one step back this whole time. But you are netting twenty four billion in new net money, even beyond the GBTC outflows. So twenty four billion, just to put that into context. James and I safered on my team, we thought these would get ten to fifteen billion in their first year, so they're already nine billion beyond our upper band. So I think that what happened here was just that there was a lot of investors out there who were afraid, even if they were casually interested, they were afraid because of the FTX downfall. Who can you give your money to in order to get this exposure. Well, long comes black Rock and Fidelity, and it's like, oh, I know these I can use all their products. I completely trust them. So the ETFs brought trust and that was totally missing. Not only that you got low fees and high liquidity, So this is like major So it's not just that there was a little rally. I just think this is a a really powerful vehicle that a lot of people just trust and like to use for this exposure. So I'm not surprised as successful, but it's a little beyond what I thought. And so there's been all these interesting products now coming out that are ancillary. They aren't spot bitcoin, but they do something similar and those are hits too. So there's a bit of a feeding frenzy for anything that's sort of Bitcoin related, and that's.

What we're going to talk about today because that ancillary products sure there's bitcoin, but there's also things like micro strategy, and there's been multiple entrants and you when the first one came out, you call it, Bloomberg Intelligence called it most Volatile ETF.

How come and how does micro strategy fit into all of this?

Yeah, you know, we've used the phrase hot sauce plenty of times on this show. This is like a ghost pepper. This is the ghost pepper of the hot sauce bucket.

Okay, this is.

Where you invest in it and you film yourself on YouTube seeing how you react to It's very VOLTAIGJOL. So to give you some numbers, we're talking like one hundred and seventy one hundred and eighty percent volatility. To put that into context, the S ANDP is like ten to eleven percent, so it's like sixteen times the volatility of the SMP. But there is definitely people who are hungry to trade, and so this pushes the envelope on volatility. But at the same time, it's not just some random stock. It's a stock that a lot of the crypto world really enjoys trading. And so if you think about it, this was actually a clever way to make a four x bitcoin ETF because MicroStrategy is two times the volatility a bitcoin and highly correlated, and these are two x MicroStrategy, so you're looking at a four x bitcoin ETF, which is again a powerful concept because there's not just people using this product. People like leverage bitcoin trading all over the world. It's very popular. There's all kinds of derivatives being used. So this again the ETF industry is famous for democratizing stuff that might be happening elsewhere. So here you have again a democratization of a very leverage trade on bitcoin, which is popular elsewhere. So I'm not totally shocked that's popular here. But these two products were instant hits to the point where they're both around the top one two percent in terms of all ETFs in volume. I mean, so in other words, they launch and they're instantly in the top one two percent most traded. That's crazy.

All right, We're gonna speak with Sylvia Jablonski, who's the CEO and CIO at Defiance ETF's particular mst X, which launched in August this time on trillions.

Do you want volatility?

We got some volatility, Sylvia. Welcome back to trillions because you have. As you reminded us, you have been here before.

I have, and thank you for having me again.

Great to have you back and in a new capacity because I think last time you were not at Defince, you were at Directions, and that was a number of years ago. So welcome back to the podcast. Eric called your product ghost pepper. How do you feel about that?

I feel good about that.

I actually which may be surprising to some, but I actually think that that's an accurate description, right, and and it could be you know, the range of descriptions for Levered u versytfs in general, right, you have some that are that are kind of like mildly spicy, and then they go all the way off to ghost pepper. And I would say that we're on the ghost pepper side. So it's it is sort of the perfect recipe though for a LEVERTYTF product. You have this high level of volatility, as Eric mentioned, and you know a lot of a lot of interest due to the underlying sector being crypto related, and you know, low and behold it. It really did take off. The good thing though, is that it's kind of being used the way it's supposed to do. You kind of see that volume in that turnover being quick, you know, a day less than a day things like this, and so in that sense, it's kind of okay that it's ghost Pepper.

Yeah, so when did you get the idea to be like, you know, what we need is to effectively do what Eric said, we need to go four x bitcoint Where did you first identify that that would be a thing that you would want to do.

So this might be super interesting too, but the initial name of our company, like when you look at the founding documents, it was Crypto Beta LLC. And when we were at you know, Direction working with Levered n versus ETF products, the chairman and original founder Matt Belski was talking about, you know how he was going to go leave and start a crypto company basically, and it was you know, sort of just way too soon. That was that was a period of time where crypto was just you know, taking off, but there was no sense that you could put it in an ETF. You could put it in like a democratized ropper that you know, a black Rock was going to be launching a product on it. You just couldn't get it out basically, right. And so you know, for years we've tried to get into the crypto game, but it was oftentimes that you know, we were either too late or not the first mover when it came to a bitcoin ETF or a levered bitcoin ETF. And we knew that we couldn't compete with the likes of a massive institution like black Rock, and so we just started looking and thinking to ourselves, like, okay, what's so bitcoin did really well, they're levered inmverse ETFs, there are single stock ETFs.

Where can we play? What else is crypto related?

And we started looking at the performance of just the micro strategy stock as compared to bitcoin and bitcoin ETFs. And you know, throughout history we call it like four x leverage, right, but throughout history it's been like six times the performance of crypto in in trending markets or three times kind of depending on you know, when you run that comp and we saw the stock, we were like, okay, the stock is up three hundred percent, right, and it's it's a crypto company. It's it's democratized crypto built into an equity, and so we thought, get this to market levered up best crypto play.

Ever, let's break that down just a little bit though, in case somebody's not familiar with micro Strategy or it's business model. I don't know if it has a business model so much as it is just a vehicle for bitcoin at this point, right, can you explain that?

Yeah, so micro Strategy was kind of historically this this software company, right, and you can argue that they play an AI which I do think, you know, kind of helps they have that.

Overall AI theme.

But Michael Salor's goal was always to kind of scoop up as much bitcoins as humanly possible. And we just heard them announce that, you know, over the next three years you're going to be raising another forty two billion, which is, you know, I think more than they actually have in total right now of bitcoin. And so what they try to do is create this this access point for investors to buy their stock and have more crypto exposure than they could ever get on their own, right, Like, can you imagine having you know, forty two billion of exposure to bitcoin? You can't do that on your own, right. And and the fact that it's a stock, the fact that it's you know, traded in the marketplace, it has liquidity, it has transparency, you can get in and out of it whenever you want. You know, people started buying it to have exposure to bitcoin, and you know, then we also noticed that people started trading it in and out short term, and so we thought there would be appetite to put leverage on it. And that's you know, kind of how the ETF was born.

Now, one thing interesting about this, and you know, we call it the hot sauce arms race because there is a lot of competition out there for this area. One well one reason is, you know, they charge a little more in the fees here and you just need one hit. You know, we had Will Rindon Joel you know his two X Navidia ETF. Guess how much money that makes a year. I'll tell you sixty million dollars. You can see the magnet to do this as opposed to like trying to go into the core and complete against compete against black Rock and Vanguard. So I totally get it. Like and there's a you know, definitely a market for this. So when you guys came out, you were one point five X and then tuttle and then you launched that one point seventy five X, which again is still pretty volatile, given how volatile micro strategy is. But then Tuttle filed for two X Matt Tuttle and t Rex and then you guys launched. You get all this money really quickly, all this volume. He launches, and I'm like, rarely, if you're like four weeks late on a hit product, it's over, Like you cannot it's the chip has failed. It's very difficult. But he launched and kind of tied you. You both got an equal amount of assets and volume, and then you filed and now you're two X. I guess what all took shape there? And is point two five x extra volatility really that much of a deal breaker?

I mean, so there's a little more to this story. So actually we we had originally filed for two X, right, And there are different rules that you have to meet in order to launch an ETF at a specific leverage point. We call that basically called a var test, and it's kind of you know this this inside baseball stuff where you know, you have to kind of like prove what the value at risk is with the basket and the index that you're comparing yourself to is and things like this, and so there were you know, there are periods of time before we launched where we wouldn't have passed the bar test based on the index that we had been using to you know, submit for var and so we filed. We were approved at one point seventy five, but we were right there with two beta, right, and then we kind of thought to ourselves, like, let's get this product out because this is hot sauce and people are going to want this and trade this, and you know, and as soon as we got it out, our clients and traders started saying, you know, we want two X, we want two X. And at that point the rex filing was out there, right, we assumed that they were going to launch the ETF, And before they launched the ETF, we actually filed to update the leverage point to to beta. But you know that takes sixty days, right, so their launch came before our left change. And so I think it was this interesting race, right because we knew we had to get out because we also knew that the two X wouldn't come into effect, you know, before they launched. So we had the one point seven out, we gathered all the assets. They came out with two and basically everything our clients said was true that people prefer the higher leverage point, and then you saw our inflows slow down a little bit. You saw them kind of take over. And now we've changed to two X and over the last couple of days we're getting a little bit more in terms of inflows than they are. So, you know, long story short, I think the two beta mattered and we're like, you know, sometimes we get praised for it and sometimes we get criticized for it, but we're very nimble as an ETF provider, like we don't take our you know, we actually had the ticker I bit and it was a short block ETF and it was out around the time that you know FTX collapse, and you know, all of this stuff happened. That ETF was up thirty percent every other day and nobody traded it, right, and we kind of knew, like, Okay, the market doesn't market doesn't want this, and we moved on from it. You know, Blackrock has that to Kurnah went a little better for them. But you know what I would say is we knew that, like we had come up with this awesome product, but you know, the people wanted more, so we gave them more.

How much has the Trump trade factored into what these enplosive.

Books likes you think, you know, I think it's like anything else.

I always find this conversation so interesting, you know, when it comes to like what's the what's the playbook for the election, because like usually nothing happens for for if you if you look like a six months to a year out in the stock market, it kind of like reverts to the mean after whatever reaction is there for a couple of days, and then maybe as policies start changing and things like that, you see, you know, you see things happen over years. But there's certainly this this thought that you know, Trump is obviously like Republican government will be you know, less focused on regulations and things like this. Maybe there's the there's more room for crypto to grow and there's more leniency to have crypto you know, invested upon different platforms and things like this. So and the fact that he went to the crypto conference and said I love crypto quinn, I think that's going to help micro strategy. I think that's going to help bitcoin.

When you think about where the year began, or even let's go back even slightly longer. I mean, Eric mentioned Sam Bakeman freed and the FTX thing. Yes, to be where we are now and see the you know, the crypto rally be where it's at. When did you think you might, you know, looking ahead here there might be something more that the world needed that could be a micro strategy x ETF.

I mean right then, you know, Eric said it like the minute that those ETFs came out, all of a sudden, there was there was this massive loss of just trust right in crypto from retail investors and then for sure institutional types of players that have you know, rigorous due diligence and they probably had to get they're probably told like get out of this now, right, But I think you know, he made the point like as soon as it became like democratized and it became launched by companies that people trust, Fidelity, black Rock, we just knew and right away we were like filing for things and trying to find ways to get exposure to crypto and this was you know a great idea that we landed on here.

But does it matter that it's still not clear what it's really for?

So you know, we get this question a lot, like sometimes we'll talk so much about the rise of crypto and then somebody will say, hey, what is it?

What do we do with it?

Again?

You know, why why is it here? And I think it goes back to, you know, like there are two things. One you can be and you can be an investor because you believe in the utility of it. You believe that it will be used in some way, whether it's for trade, whether it's you know, digital gold, whether it's an inflation hedge, whether it's because it's good to have this decentralized asset away from central banks. And those are you know, kind of like good reasons that people buy into why they should hold trade by crypto. And then there are other people that will just, you know, kind of flat out tell us, I still have no idea if any of that will actually come to fruition, but I see that this is an asset class with a high level of momentum and volatility, and so I trade it for the technical reason. And you know, even like the largest institutional clients will tell us like, my five percent, you know, and you guys talk about this stuff a lot too, right, five percent of your portfolio is to have some fun talitate to an asset class that might not be along your map and take a gamble at it.

Yeah, no, the bitcoin is what is it for? I went through a lot of this, you know, as a tourist in that world. But I think also one thing that opened my eyes was like in other countries, especially the emerging markets, like the governments have just annihilated their currencies like they're worth nothing. The US does that to a degree, but it's not as pressing of a need here. I just think over time, it's something that the government cannot mess with because it is truly decentralized, and people like to have a little of something that they can't you know, mess with, you know, because obviously printing money is a very easy way to solve problems, and so I get that. I also think that it's sixteen years old, right, The white paper was sixteen years ago, written by Satoshi, and so I do call crypt bitcoin gold as a teenager, you know, where they used to make those movies like Young Einstein and stuff like that. This is like young gold. So it's sixteen years old. You know, it's got attitude, it's stealing the car, it's very volatile. So I just think it's kind of the best of both worlds. You've got this store of value. But you've got something that's hot saucy in whereas gold is very boring. It can go up, but it does. It's not a volatile which is a plus for some people, but in this case, I just think the hot sauce volatility is a feature, not a bug in this case. Speaking of that, one thing you guys have on mst X and MSTU, which is tuttles is options. So think about this roll. You can't get options on spot bitcoin ETFs. We do think they'll be approved in the next couple of months, but right now you can't do it. But you can get options on what is effectively for x bitcoin, which just shows you how sometimes regulation isn't as logical as you'd like it to be. I mean, if you add the volume of you two together, you trade like as much as Netflix every day. I mean, this is clearly there is a market to trade in this stuff, and I wondered if you want to talk a little bit about how, like who uses the options, what that's for, and how that market has grown.

Also, Yeah, sure, And another great point to just add to what you said about, you know, kind of like the teenager and gold, is that the two are also in scarcity, right, there's a limited quality, limited quantity in the world of both you know gold and crypto, which is you know, digital gold, and I think that's why they sometimes get married together. But so in terms of the options, I think, you know, we have investors using them for many many reasons, Like first it's to you know, hedge their crypto exposure, whether it's Bitcoin exposure, whether it's micro strategy exposure, whether it's exposure to our actual ETF. Other times it's finding ways to get more leverage on the leverage GTFU, and other times it's to actually you know, get exposure to an underlying you know, crypto index. And so the options growth has been massive. I actually have never seen I don't think and this is like, you know, coming from a past where I covered like nugget and dust and like highly voltaile ETFs, I don't think I've ever seen options lists so quickly on an ETF in my career. And that doesn't mean that that's right, but they happened incredibly quickly. They came out incredibly quickly, whether it was like the weeklies, the monthlies, and you know, so I think it's just another tool that allows you know, traders to kind of manage this exposure. But I feel like the options are used mostly by and I could be wrong about this. I think like it's picking up with retail, but just seeing the size of trays and things like that, I think a lot of it is like market makers too on the options. Yeah.

No, to me, options are like like a bunch of new colors to paint with. Like it's it just gives you more. You can sculpture what you want a little more. I get it. It's just gives you other dimension to your investment. So you you definitely get get a little of that artist there. I know, thank you. I've dabble.

Yeah, I can tell it's another dimension there.

Eric, we're gonna have bring your art to work day that maybe we don't even want to know. Maybe some things are vets left at home. One thing that me and my team have debated so is that these were such both of them were such an instant hit, and it's weird normally like even the two X Navidia ETF, which is really popular, it took like a couple months for it to start to trade over like a million dollars a day. You guys are in the hundreds of millions after a week or two, it's weird. And so we were wondering, is this because these are ghest pepper like volatility, like they have just pushed the volatility boundary to another place, or is it just the crypto crowd loves trading around micro strategy, Like what's the bigger attraction the heightened volatility? Again, it's the most volatile ETF in America or the crypto part. Like, if let's say there was a stock more volatile the micro strategy and you two x that, do you think it would be a hit just the same or is this more of a as we said at the beginning, a spillover effect from the popularity of bitcoin.

I think both.

So I do think that if you launched a more volatile stock it would take oft in a similar way because volatility for leverty like this, especially the secret sauce. I think for a LEVERTYTF is kind of like a retail sentiment and volatility of the underlying and a lot of the ETFs that have that recipe have taken off. The second thing is I think at first, when single name leverage ETFs came out, it was kind of like ho hum, right, we didn't see anything happened for a little while. Like, I mean, there are a few of them out there that are so good that still haven't taken off. And I think that it's a newer concept for retail investors to look at these single stock ETFs and get into them. So I think part of it is like seeing the success of that INNA video one kind of opened up that marketplace.

But you know, absolutely, like number one, I think.

It's because it's crypto related and it's micro strategy, and as Michael Saylor and number two, I think it's volatility. At number three, I think it's because people have started to embrace single name leverage gtfs. Like, think about all of this time since that first single name ATYTF had been filed, like nobody really put that much out into the market, right, and now the filings have picked up like crazy. I mean, your heart, it's hard to find a name that doesn't exist. I mean we're always looking at it and we're like, you know, dang, every ETF is taken, right, So it's just also grown in popularity and awareness.

I think also.

Helps that market as generally the market.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally risk on Yeah, risk on and and all that rates coming down.

I mean that's part of the part of it too.

Yeah, no, no doubt. This stuff definitely has more you see, more products and more volume in a bull market.

Yeah.

That said, you know, like the triple leveraged cues have hung around through many downturns. So if you get enough volume in an ETF, you're pretty much set for life. I think you guys are both good for a long time. Some of the other ones I think are going to close.

What about for UH traders when you when you kind of have a chance to like see how the products being you are there things that make you wins or also that you're like, wow, that was like exactly how you could have used it?

Right.

I'm curious when you when you have a chance to see that, what's your assessment then?

So if you asked me.

This question, and like, like I kind of got into this business in two thousand and eight, into the leven number CTF business. So if you had asked me this question like twenty eleven, twenty twelve, it would be it would be a WinCE for sure. I think that you know, the education at that point was pretty nascent. There were investors coming into the products that didn't understand how to trade them.

I mean, now I feel like everyone gets it.

Like the lever numbers, CTF providers have done such an awesome job putting the education out there. The platforms have the hey trade at your own risk, you know. So the biggest thing is, like, do people understand that they have to make a decision both on the direction of the market and the direction of volatility, right because range bound volatility is terrible for these things. Right, So when you have range brown vall you want to be a day trader. When you have a trend, trend is your friend. You can hold it for a little bit longer. But like every day understand that, yes, compounding is working in your favor.

But you're you know, kind.

Of now have have more you know, apples in the barrel than you did the day before. So I think that I'm kind of like comfortable now with with you know, kind of believing that the education is out there and people know how to use the products, and we don't promote them, and you know, we don't promote them as like long term investments. No levern you know, like tunnel doesn't do a direction, doesn't do appro Chares doesn't do it, and so I think, like the education's out there. And by the way, there's like this is so interesting because around the time of the derivative's role, we.

Did so much work to.

You know, kind of like provide input on what we thought levern Niversity tfs were and like the risk level and things like that.

I mean, there's way.

More leverage and other things and other like even like like fixed income products and futures and things like this than there are in you know, levern Nuniversity tfs. And also you know, they don't take up that much of the daily trading. Like at the open the clothes people thought that the rebalance must be you know, half of the day's volume. It was like two percent. It was not even two percent. It was like between one and two percent. And so I think a lot of that is now out there, and I'm kind of like less surprised now people using them.

All Right, Sylvia, how many products ETFs have you brought into existence? And where would you rank this one when you step back and think about your your trophies, your hall of trophies.

Yeah, I mean it's hard to say, Like I'm not one to like take credit for for the ETFs that our firms have launched, because there's so much like whether it's a direction or defiance, Like there's so much back and forth, you know, amongst like a million people who work at the company, I would say we've had like a defiance. We've had a sixty percent hit rate in terms of you know, ETFs that become profitable, the ones that you know some of them, some of the ETFs we have are you know having you know, they're in the ETF graveyard because they weren't profitable and people and trade them. But I mean, this is this is definitely our number one. This is definitely our number one.

One. Other interesting thing about this, so we have two X micro strategy here, but before these existed, believe it or not, they had three X micro strategy in Europe. Yeah, Europe's kind of weird, like they they're just I don't know, the rules are just really relaxed for anything outside that usid's program. So anyway, they have a lot of crazy stuff over there, but nobody cares. Nobody's sure eight Ethnosi it's and I always talk about how it's just the wrong market you launch something like that over here. Man, Look out right, So there's there's like a five.

X q's in Europe.

Have you looked at Europe for like ideas or I just puts your take on like how the US culture is just so much the appetite so much bigger for this than in Europe where they have this and then some.

Yeah, it's so interesting because I've you know again, I've been like in lever number CTF for a long time now, and I've traveled around the world, you know, whether it's marketing products, are trying to get them listed on foreign exchanges and things like this, and I can tell you that like Asia ETF lovers all around Asia, you know, you had like like Mexico loves leverage in Europe. Like I mean, I've been part of this too, listing leverage ETFs.

On the exchange there, on exchanges there.

None of them ever took off and they were they were, you know, two three four billion dollars ETFs in the US and when we listed them overseas, nothing happened. So you know, I don't know, it's it's interesting to me, but we like it's funny because when we were gonna launch mycrostrategy, we kind of looked at that and we were like, well that's there, and it's it's like this thing could could this thing flop because nobody's even touched that thing. And yeah, it's just I just think that there's a different level of risk appetite. There's a different you know. I think that the mindset there is a little bit different. It's kind of like say for retirement forever here it's do that. But also you know, also like retail loves training and day train and we have like a big, you know, social media culture now around trading. So I just think that they're I don't want to say behind, but you know, the popularity has has fallen behind the US and Asia for sure.

Joel.

I was actually in Europe recently and I have my Hot Sauce PowerPoint slide which has like literally these Tabasco containers with different Hot sauces in there. And when I got to that section, I could tell like they just they weren't. I could just feel they're like, I don't really get a lot of this, And I said, this is sort of like sports gambling, And I said, you guys have gambling on your phones, you know. They just like it's just a different culture there. You're right, Asia though they love this stuff. In fact, they might even be more into this than we are in certain Asian countries. So it's just interesting sort of insight there into what works in different countries. But I think it's interesting, like if you launched a three x micro strategy here, I mean, it would probably be a bigger hit than the two x.

Oh we would have if we could, but derivatives rule.

Could you launch an ETN that's three x, because like reck Shares has a couple three x energy etns.

Yeah, you know you could, But we've just found that, like if you look at the assets and the levered ETFs, they're just so much higher than they are in the etns, and people worry about, you know, the counterparty risk, and with this particular it's you know, it's hard to get challenging to get swap exposure on very volatile underlying assets and then so to get a bank to give you a note on something you know as ghost peppery as this is just challenging.

So I just don't know that.

You know, it would it would be like for that reason, I think people would be worried about the risk of the counterparty. We might not even find a counterparty, and you know, the ETF is just a better vehicle for this stuff.

What other ghost peppers are you thinking about growing in your garden.

I can't tell you what we're doing just because it's not public yet. But in the next two weeks yeah, no for sure, but in the next two weeks where you'll see some filings from Defiance and one of them is inspired by mister Eric Valchunis himself. And I've been like dying to tell what it is, but I can't because.

It's not file.

Yeah, but but keep an eye out because I think it'll be it'll blow your mind.

What it is. How do I talk about it doesn't exist?

I don't know.

You'll get it.

As soon as you see the filing you'll be like, that's it. That's the one, the one that's mine.

I'll ask him. Sylvia Jablonski thanks for joining us on Trillions.

Again, Thank you for having me, Thanks.

For listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Baltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus and Rickson.

Bye

In 1 playlist(s)

  1. Trillions

    219 clip(s)

Trillions

Money goes where it's treated best. That simple truth is a big reason why more and more money—trilli 
Social links
Follow podcast
Recent clips
Browse 218 clip(s)