This is Gavin NewsomGovernor Tim Walz joins Gavin to discuss how the Democrats are losing men and why the party’s brand of populism isn’t resonating.
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This is Gavin Newsom and this is Governor Tim Walls. All right, Governor, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for being with us.
I am thanks for having me.
Uh, I'm kind of wondering where I follow this list of guests, but I'm excited.
You're not be friends for a while, so we're not appreciated.
But you and I have talked about this for a while, trying to trying to understand, uh, during a Trump presidency, how do we best serve our folks? How do we get back there? And the Democratic Party? I mean, we all need to be very candid. Is is not all that popular right now?
Well, that's how I wanted to start, just right up top. I mean, the timing of this couldn't be more opportunistic for both of us as Democratic governors. It's look, we're in the tank. I mean, it's not just a rough spot. It's an historically low at least in modern polling. Back to the nineteen nineties. CNN had the Democratic Party brand now down about twenty nine percent, and it was even worse in an NBC pull that showed twenty seven percent of people supporting our party. You've been out on the road. You were just in a couple of red states. You've been doing town halls. We've talked about this in the past privately. It's not just about what you say and how you say, it's also about where you say it. So I love the fact that you were out there, so give us a sense. I mean, what you're over under is about where the hell our party is right now?
Well, and I think that's what people are doing.
Look, this is something hadn't been done, what you're doing, and people are, you know, and they're we're trying to enter spaces and look, I don't know if all of them are going to work.
I don't.
But the fact of the matter is we don't want to win elections just to say Democrats want elections. We want to win elections to improve people's lives. When we're losing elections, chaos reigns, which we're seeing right now. I'm out of town hall and these folks are standing up. They're a VA nurse, you know, they're concerned what's happening in the VA. They're a farmer that's concerned. They are folks that are concerned about their personal reproductive rights and their life choices and if we can't be a respected opposition or alternative, that really worries me. And I say this, Kevin, that that I didn't I didn't go to the Democrats. They came to me with social Security, with gi Bill. You know, it was clear when at least my age growing up, Democrats stood with working people, Republicans stood with the wealthy, and there was nothing necessarily wrong with that that you know, it was. It was at least an argument. It feels much more polarized now, but people don't see us as that.
It's they see exactly the opposite of that, that we're the party of the elites, that we don't represent we represent quote unquote others, we don't represent them. In this notion that the working class now has been is embraced Donald Trump is extraordinary and so and what do you I mean, the million out on the camp you were out on the campaign show. I mean, it's such an interesting conversation for me to have with you and for those listening, because no one has more sort of a contemporary ear to the ground than you do. Just coming off a few months ago the campaign trail, meeting people all across this country. I mean, these new numbers that came out as CNN and NBC. I mean even you had to be shocked by how far we've fallen as a brand.
Yeah.
Look, and I felt excitement out there, and our policies are popular. By the way, when you pull our policies like paid family, medical lead, support for the environment, reproductive rights, they pulled very high.
We don't. So what I have to tell you, what I take away.
From that, Gavin, is is that I think we got to be very careful of drinking our own kool aid or believing we're in our bubble, because I truly did think we were going to win. And I say that as someone who is run in traditionally red districts won close races, and I felt like I had a feel, and I think this is where we're going to have to get out over our skis a bit, try new places.
I know we've had this argument. It was out there, Governor.
We didn't see you on a lot of you know, things that weren't mainstream media. We didn't see you on podcasts. We didn't see doing that. Are you willing to go into those We need to be willing to go into those spaces now, between you and Ikevin I don't think we're going to win over those seventy seven million that voted for Donald Trump. I'm concerned with the ninety million who stayed home. Now, I'm concerned that our policies positively impact those seventy seven million, because you and I represent a lot of independence, Republicans, Greens as well as Democrats, and we have responsibility. I don't know if we can necessarily win them over, but I think the thing that we should really soul search on is when the choice was Donald Trump and JD. Van's and Kamala Harrison myself and policies that we were clearly articulating. It got pretty close seventy seven to seventy five type of thing. But it's the ninety million that stayed home. Why did they think we were the same, Why did they think we weren't there?
And I don't.
I think by going into these spaces to be candid with you, it allows people to express their frustrations, It allows people to articulate what's happening in their lives. It better also be a place where we're hearing and learning, because I'm guessing you're hearing some things that you don't normally hear.
When you're going on with some of these folks, you're on with the understanding.
Here, and that's Yeah. This notion of uncomfortable conversations not just conversations. But let me let me, let me step back. I love what you said because it's interesting this notion of our policies are popular, but our party is not popular, and it begs the question some have asked me, and I want to pose it to you. Do you think one of the mistakes is we don't focus first on what we stand for and then make the case the policy that backs that up and reinforces it. That we are not fundamentally meeting people where they are. They want to know what we stand for.
Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah, And look, I and I appreciate. I think we're going to be in hard places, and I think we're going to get punched from both sides doing some of this. But we're not in this too. Like I said, we're not banking political capital to win another election. We're trying to improve people's lives. And let's all be very candas nobody's lives being improved right now except billionaires, and I don't see that changing. And so I think we're going to have to ask those questions. I think a lot of times the simple answer is it's the messenger, you know, which all acknowledged. Maybe the messenger is not good at this. I approach this always, Kevin like a school teacher. I give a lesson and then I do an assessment of that lesson, and half the students didn't do very well on it. Well, I don't assume that those half are terrible kids. I assume that they have a different learning style, or they weren't hearing the way I was teaching it.
Maybe these folks.
Were, you know, verbal learners, maybe they were kinesitic learners, whatever it might be. I think we have to approach the electorate like that, that we think we're telling them where we're at.
But for whatever reason, you're right, and this pains me. I tried to make the case. Look, I'm a public school teacher, went to a public university, and according to the Wall Street Journal, I'm the poorest person who ever ran for vice president. That didn't matter to them.
And so the idea here that we were trying to craft some one who, for whatever reason, there was a number of people that didn't register with So I'm with everybody else. And again when people ask me, I'm probably the last person you should ask for answers because I didn't get it done. But I do believe we were making inroads, and I will have to tell you one of the most powerful ones for me, Gavin. It's not a great use of campaign time, but we were up in Erie, Pennsylvania on Halloween before the election, and I sat down with five undecided voters and we had a forty five minute give and take on that. I think I got three of them for sure. Maybe, but you know that's how you view it. But the fact of the matter was is it was really good for me too, because it was coming back and forth and this guy says, well, I didn't realize, you know, you understood farm policy like this, because I'm not hearing that from you guys.
He was telling us.
He wasn't hearing that. I said, but I do know this, I know the price of corn, I know all these things work. So I think as Democrats, we're going to have to push ourselves into uncomfortable spots and these town halls. Look, I'll be the first technology of you. It's to highlight that their members are Congress on the Republican side are ashamed of Donald Trump's policies.
Is that? I mean, it was that fun foundationally, the why was that the inspiration to go out and do it?
Yes, And I don't demonize these representatives. I honor their service. I went out there, but I lived through this. I went to the town halls during the ACA and I made a full throated defense of President Obama's healthcare bill. And I got reelected. Now it was a tough fight, but I got reelected. These folks are not going out there, and I'll tell you it's a huge mistake. Democrats did this in twenty ten. Oh these are Republican operatives. They were not Republican operatives. They were my neighbors who were matter than hell. And we're getting misinformation. But I went out and filled that void. I think we as Democrats have left a void, and that Donald Trump is masterful. Say what you will about this. I don't give him credit. I don't think he's a genius. I don't think he knows how stuff works. But I do think he knows how media works. And I do think he knows that if we're assuming people here are arguments, they're just so SELFIH just like this teacher and me, I taught the lesson this should be easy. Well, that's not how all people learn. It's not all people's lives are at And again, I don't if someone who doesn't believe a woman should have the right to choose, if someone who doesn't believe the president should be restrained by the constitution, I'm not going to win them. But I don't believe that's a very large percentage of the population. But why are they not trusting us? What's your take? I mean, why are what are you hearing when you hear this? Why are people not trusting the message we were delivering? Because I keep coming back to this. We needed to have immigration reform to control our borders, and you can do that with humanity. Donald Trump just said they're invading our country, they're eating dogs and cats, and he got more votes. Why is it so?
I mean, and I want to and I have strong opinions on that, but I want to sort of stress test yours again because I think it's interesting. Back to my notion, and you say, you're the last person I'm going to completely dismiss. I think you're the best position to understand what's going on. But let me reflect on this notion of you being teacher and reflecting on on how your students did. Did you have an opportunity right off the election to sit down over the course. I mean, I hope you took time off with the family decompressed, but you had to have had with your team these conversations. Did you have them with the Harris team as well? Did you have them with the campaign team? Have you organized anything more formally even internally? You got books coming out they're going to shape those internal conversations. You got one book coming out in a few weeks called Fight that is already starting to frame what did or did not occur. Have you started that process or has that process been advanced?
Yeah?
No, you're right, and I've talked to my team about it. Look as a high school teacher and a governor whatever, I didn't think about writing a book, But being there, I have.
You know, I think we.
Got to tell our story and I think there's lessons learned to not go back and do you know, a deep bever or hotwash of this is irresponsible in my opinion. I spoke to the Vice president last week. We talked a little bit about this, of coming to it but we haven't done like a formal debrief, and you know, when you're part of it, you've done this that. When you're part of a team on this, you know you work together. And I stand by that. I signed up and I say this, Gavin, you'd appreciate not the cliches of coaching or whatever, but I feel like I'm the constant team player. If you are truly a team player, you have a responsibility to make your team better. And that means a responsibility to say, look, we're not making this block here, we need to do this or whatever it is, and we need to be honest that Again, I keep coming back to that number of the folks who stayed home. How in God's name could you stay home during this election? It's pretty hard to blame that on Donald Trump? You know what I mean that you've got a responsibility. They weren't going to vote for him, his people were, But you had a whole bunch of these folks that just said, what difference does it make? And how did we as a party get into that? How did we lose the narrative? How much are we seeding ground to the Fox News and the right wing talking heads? How much are we seeding to them, which we don't have a pushback on it. And that's fascinating to me. I see that with me, people who have a clearly defined vision who I am by what they listen to.
And I'm like, well, that's not true. None of that is true. But they have it.
They have it, and I mean, and it's so interesting. I think about you, and you know, we've talked about this before, this notion of you know you were there was an effort to swift boat you in terms of your military service, and it's interesting and Tim, we've also talked about the fact you were part of Carrie's campaign as a veteran promore watching Carrie by these same folks get swift in and did it.
And I'm telling you, this is one of the most painful ones for me, Gavin, not because I don't go down and throw this in people's faces, but my dad was koreat war, aor veteran.
He took me. I did it.
I don't go out there and say, you know, I'm better than you, because I did twenty four years. But how quickly these guys dismissed twenty four years of honorable service. I rose and served as a highest ranking enlisted soldier where you can get and they find a way to damn it. And my argument on that has always been it damages all veterans. But I bet if you went and polled, we see this. Veterans voted for Donald Trump where they voted for us. We as Democrats, how do you write this off? How do you do or this one? Republicans are more fiscally conservative? You know that's not true. Republican governors of California have not been fiscally conservative.
No, And I'll remind everyone eight point four trillion dollars added to the debt during the four years of the Trump administration. And if you want to dismiss that, say it was COVID. It was three trillion before the pandemic. He ran deficits every single year. So I stand by what you just said, Tim.
I mean, what do you think happening? Look, you're taking a different approach, You're doing other things. And I said, I think we as Democrats have to give whether it's Bernie Sanders, whether it's Jasmine Crockett, AOC, Gavin Newsom, JB.
Pritzker, all of the folks out there, because look.
What we have in common is we believe in working people, we believe in fairness, we believe in healthcare, we believe in the environment.
We're on the same team as the American public. But how do you see it? I mean, did it feel like we were.
Going to win? No, I mean we had that conversation. I felt like that up until election day for whatever reason. And look, but it's you know, it's interesting. I had the same false sense that I think we all fall prey to, and that is I was on those campaign buses. I was out there campaigning for you guys. And it's make believe in many respects. When they say, you know, when you want to go right, they say, oh no, sir, we got to go left because that's where the crowds are and we've been working hard to assemble them. And I wonder just in terms of that, And I want to get back to answering your question, but I want to just applaudge you for doing these red state tours. But do you fear and I'm curious of your experiences like this when you go into those crowds, which were huge. You were in Omaha, you were in Ohio and Iowa excuse me as well, and you had huge crowds. But do you fear they're just you were talking to our same folks or do you feel like there's a bunch of Republicans that were there to listen to you?
Now see, I don't fear it, but I I think we need to be honest with ourselves. The folks who took a beautiful Friday afternoon in de Mooinne to come listen to Tim Walls speak probably have a pretty good opinion of me in the first place. But that's probably too That's okay because they're screaming what are you guys going to do about it? But I do tell you there were some independence there. I doubt if there were a whole lot of Republicans. But I'll tell you what those Republicans were watching. And I think what I would say if I was them, is, look, our representative can do better than Walls. He should do it. He should get out there and do it. This is to put pressure on them to come forward, because then it really does become a debate about the critical issues. And like I said this, I you know they can just come and why did you cut the VA? Just tell us, tell us why you think that's a good idea because I would argue once again, eighty percent of Americans don't want to cut the VA, and you have to give them statistics and facts. And I think my purpose of this is is to force the hand of these folks, because I got to be honest with you. I think if they try and defend this stuff, they're going to lose. I believe strongly in that this isn't just us versus them, This is good policy versus bad policy.
And so that's the purpose.
But no, I want to be clear to folks who see that the folks showing up are excited.
But here's my thing. Four months after.
Losing this critical election, our base is still engaged. So I think that polling is interesting Gavin that it doesn't mean that there's less Democrats. And the reason that number is so low is if you pull every single year, if you ask the Republican Party their opinion of the Democratic Party, it's very low. The reason our numbers are so low is those are Democrats.
Yep, sixty three percent feel and I was grateful with.
Sixty three percent. Still, here's what I say. I'm not a Democrat, I'm Democratic farmer labor. I'm the one person in the country.
We're dfl so and I actually think, Gavin, this is an interesting point. While I won't cry and tell you we've kept the farmers all with us or whatever, we have kept some of them like Farmers Union in Minnesota and these issues around water quality and different things, and we're labor and.
In Minnesota we really do.
This was a marriage between the Farmer Labor Party, which quite honestly was more progressive and leaning into the issues of the working class and Democrats. And so I think on a national level, we're going to have the conversation of who we are because, like you said it.
People don't believe we're with them. They think we're a leaders.
What I love about what you did is you're meeting people where they are going into red states, but you're also not just meetium where they are. You're showing respect, you're not turning your back because you're looking an electoral map and recent experience say it's just seven swing states and that's all our need to focus on. And I think one of the things the Democratic Party absolutely needs to do is we need to respect the fact that we have to represent the American people, and that means all fifty states, and so keeping going back, showing up matters.
Howard Dean was right fifty strategy and just to be candid as one of the fringe, you know, kind of washed in with the wave in two thousand and six when there was the big Democratic wave, it was because of Howard Dean and a few folks that were out there that were saying, expand the map. Rama Manual of all people was one of them. Two said we need to expand the map everywhere. They went into a district that had one Democrat since eighteen ninety two and put a little money into it. And I want and so I think, if you want to govern this country, you can't tell Montana they don't matter, or Idaho or Mississippi. And look, you and I both know this. You also can't tell the Central Valley and things it were not everybody thinks, oh, California.
Solid quiet, The counture two thirds of the map is deeply red. I mean it's, you know, just America, only more so in California, more hunters, more ranchers, more farmers, and then other states and still the largest manufacturing state in America. People forget that as well. So this notion of industrial policy that's worker centered, so I have.
To say I appreciate and you're you're going on talking to it, you know. And I get frustrated with some of these folks, you know. I get frustrated with the talking heads and the folks who I think are bad actors. I don't get frustrated with my neighbors who are voting them. I don't understand it as well, but I'm trying to get them. You know, we have to figure out a way that we're not The Republicans have done a good job of this.
We're the enemy now.
Now we're in this situation where they see Russians as being more trustworthy than us.
You know, that's a sad state to be in.
Unbelievable state.
Yes, And I.
Don't know, again don't I don't know if I've got the ability to bring back those seventy seven million. I do believe we've got the ability to get the disenfranchised folks who are seeing the damage here. And I think that's really important because this is truly, this isn't about winning elections. This is about what's best for the country. And you'll never convince me siding with Putin and North Korea it's good for the country, or fighting a trade war with Canada and Mexico's good for the country.
I don't buy it.
Yeah, friends, And what more evidence we need to underscore this notion of these principles And what's happened today with the Alien Enemies Act seventy hundreds and the deportation and just I mean, it's this to me, of all the things that has happened during the Trump administration, the notion that you can completely disregard the Federal Court and literally challenged the court and for me, just just blatantly in contempt of court. I mean, that's that's the cornerstone of this constitutional democracy.
And here's what fascinates me is if that came up. I watched the Sunday talk shows yesterday. It was all about what's wrong with the Democratic Party?
Yeah?
Why do we buy their arguments? Why are we fighting fringe, red herring issues that get Democrats at Democrats that the Democratic activists screaming at other Democrats? How do we And I did it, Gavin, I admitted it. I took the dogs in cats argument and ran right with it, and he sucked me in. We have been in these issues where we may not all agree on all the issue, but we buy their frame. And then you have Democrats fighting against Democrats and they sail above it.
They say above it. I mean, so, then you don't want me ask the Schumer question in the shutdown because it falls right into that frame, doesn't it.
Yes?
Yes, And having served in Congress, you're an executive, you know what make the hard. I put out a budget and everybody's angry with me, all my friends, you know, including teachers who I'm looking out for them. But you have to do these things. But I think it's in the moment with this, and I look, and this is where Democrats we actually care about the institutions and we care about people.
Like you know.
My opinion on this is I believe Chuck one hundred percent believes that he made a decision that reduced the pain and the risk to Americans. I see it now that we're in a point where I think we're in a new world. That pain is coming anyway, and I think with you, with you, yeah, And they think we gave up our leverage. And to make it clear, who owns this because now to the American public who doesn't do this for a living and is out doing their job.
They said, well, they.
Passed this budget and they agreed with Donald Trump, and now we all own that. I think you should have made Donald Trump justify why things were getting so bad, and we as governors would do our best to protect the most vulnerable. That seemed to me to be the fight we should have had. But I think the public saying is you guys weren't even coordinated on that. You know you already weren't we weren't.
Let me, I mean, just let me ask you, as a party leader, are you? I mean, there's this notion people say, well, what's the party doing? Who is the party? And I'm asking you, I'm serious. Is the party of the DNC? Is the party? You? And Harris? Is the party?
Is it?
Party? Is it? Chuck? And Akeem? Who is the party? Is it a DGA?
I go back to it again, Kevin. It's not a flippant romant. It's the people. And then in a democracy they send people forward to be able to do this. The party is not leadership. The party is there to enable And I know for me, I wouldn't have got elected as a high school teacher with no connections, no political experience if I wouldn't have been able to go to Worthington, Minnesota and meet a woman named deb Howkan's and who already knew how to organize a little get together and put me in front of forty people and let me give my little speech. That's what the party was supposed to do. My job was to hear and reflect from them and then take our values and vote for them. And I think we've gotten ourselves in this bind where we think there's going to be one person now.
I want to be very clear about this.
It doesn't excuse any of us for not being organized, coordinated, thoughtful, delivering a unified message.
And by the way, Tim, we're not doing that. And you know we're not doing that. I don't get calls. I mean, we don't coordinate. There's no deep coordinating. Heck, even in our DGA meetings. Let's have that conversation that we're not even focused on policy. It's nice to see each other. We have those side conversations, we'll have panels, and we will discuss in some respects and policy, but at the gubernatorial level, when we're all together, we tend to be having tactical conversations about elections.
We're probably more unified than anybody too.
And we are ironically more unified.
Yeah, we're not a call.
But and again are the folks who are out there, whether are on social media or the folks at the local coffee shop or whatever. They want us to have a unified message. Here's where I really think they've missed in DC on this. It does feel to me that despite those numbers, the Democratic Party is unified. They're unified in being pissed off at the Democratic.
Party, you know, and they argutified in that Donald Trump's policies are going to hurt people.
So I would argue Gavin that there's an argument in here, and then I'm going to I like him a lot, and I think he's right. I think Ezra Klin is giving us a bit of a road kicking the butt. We blindly say all of our democratic institutions and our government institutions are unquestionably working as well as they should. We open it up, we should be striving to do things better. We should acknowledge I'm trying to do it here in Minnesota. I'm not going to cut, you know, safeguards around permitting, but I will be the first to acknowledge it takes us too long to permit projects. There you go and it bogs down systems, And I started, you know, we have to bring people in who look, you're you're going to cater to corporate interests or whatever. No, I'm trying to make it easier to build a solar field and be able to get that out there. I'm trying to make it easier for somebody to bring in a new business, but not sacrifice workers' safety, environmental safety in that.
And we don't acknowledge that enough. I don't think.
There you go and they.
You know, all the Republicans are I'll cut your taxes and you know, we'll cut government spending. But now you have all these stories people saying, well, I voted for Trump and I wanted them to cut government spending.
But I didn't mean me. I didn't mean my stuff.
We as Democrats have to connect that government does deliver positives, does deliver things, but we also.
Are were fallible and in some cases we get in the way. So say it.
Yeah, I love to. I mean, by the way, we're gonna have Ezra Client on the podcast next week talking specifically about this.
Ali thanks for.
Me because I agree with him on this. I think he's trying to figure out a better way, that this isn't an all or nothing, And this is an advantage for us because Republicans are telling people that all government stinks. You're going to regret this. And I was down in Iowa when the tornadoes are hitting. It's really good to have weather forecasting. Really it makes no sense, So tell that story.
That's important. And look, I mean for things to change, we have to change, and I think we have to own what you know, we can control the controllables, and that's how we govern and be more effective. And in so many ways the world we invented is competing against us as it relates to the paralysis of analysis and process years and years. As you say to not just you know, get a permit, but even to zone a solar projects. This is not just about large factories spewing pollution. This is also about the transition to low carbon, green growth economy. So I couldn't agree with your sentiment, and I appreciate Ezra and others bringing that up. Let me ask you, though, just broadly on the issue of the asymmetry, because we keep dancing around this and there is asymmetry in terms of the communication. You talked about how you're perceived after this election despite unprecedented amounts of money that you guys spent Harris Walt on the campaign trying to define our brand, but how successful they were defining us as opposed to Democrats defining them. It's important underscore. I don't think people appreciate this. You look at podcasts, nine out of the ten most influential podcasts skewed to the right, nine out of ten. Thank you to the podsey folks for saving us at least allowing us to fight. You've got fourteen of the fifteen top rated TV shows, fourteen of the fifteen on Fox. You've got Sinclair Broadcasting that's filling that void with local newspapers, with one hundred and eighty five plus stations flooding the zone coordinated attacks. They're staying on message, they're not allowing distractions to get them distracted, and they're reinforcing a message that's it seems to me be a wake up call to the Democratic Party to figure that out.
Yeah no, and look adjacent to this, Voice of America went silent today, which I tell you having listened to Voice America living in Asia in eighty nine. I found out that the Berlin Wall fell through Voice of America. And there's a reason that they didn't want you to hear that when you're living in China, because that's pretty threatening to their way of doing things. So I think we haven't conveyed the power of that communication, and as the landscape has changed so greatly, because look, I know you're taking a risk doing a podcast, doing something to try and fill a void that's out there, and hopefully trying to use it as a platform to articulate our values to a different or broader audience.
But we've not figured this out yet.
And don't do I think we'd have won this election if we'd have gone on one of those podcasts. No, No, probably not. But I don't think we'd got beat by more, know what I mean. I don't think I think would have been a chance. But I think any place we can go to talk about our values. The value of these town halls, too, Gavin, is that they slow things down and you can talk things through. And I think at the end of the day, you start finding out, you know, there are people out there saying, well, I didn't really realize that I didn't see it that way, But where is guilty of this too? I want to go on to places where I get you know, confirmation bias. USh I already believe it, and.
Then of course people turn to We've.
Got to broaden it. We've got to get to more people. We've got to recognize the disconnect between our policies and how people view them. And I think we always this is just me. I'm going to say it that I think somebody's got to be big and strategic and macro. I just look at every one of these issues through the individual lens how it's impacting them, and I try and stay in that space. And I'll be the first to admit to you I view most issues through the eyes of a teacher. It's just who I am, like a thing when those kids come in the classroom. That means I view homelessness, food, insecurity, you know, inclusion. I view all of those things through the eye of a teacher, what it means to be in that because I believe that that's that in America, that's the great hope, the great equalizer, the great experiment, and so something in there were missing in a pretty big way.
Obviously, I think the biggest and the most alarming part of these polls and is that people feel we're out of touch. And despite what I thought was an incredibly effective campaign in terms of highlighting the needs of the American people, I thought just the importance of having you on the ticket to articulate exactly what you just articulated really reinforced and underscored the benefits of someone that is able to know, through your lived experience and through your eyes, be able to express what I think the vast majority of people embrace. But again they're still not embracing what were.
The idea again? And you think it's because we appear.
We Yeah, Bill Clinton said it been on anyone years and years ago after slacking given the choice, I'm paraphrasing the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right.
Because I saw it from me, and not that I spend much time thinking about this, and it just baffled me how much time they spent trying to attack me that I wasn't like masculine enough in their vision, Like I would have never believed this. I saw Fox News did like a couple of days because I used a straw and I'm like, hell, man, what am I how else do you drink a milkshake type of thing. But they focused on it obsessively, which I think again is their obsession, their weirdness. We buy their frame on these issues of sexuality, you know, but their whole thing was is that they spent all their time, these guys on Fox News that Walls is gay, not masculine. You know, he doesn't coach football the way he should or doesn't. What do you think about this?
I mean, because it is a misogyny in here that's happened. Yeah.
Well, but this notion of masculinity is deeply part of it. That's one of the I mean, I think it goes you know, and you can look at the reasons why we've had this sort of dialectic over the Meat Too movement. We've had this dialectic even prior to the met To movement. This notion and well, this, this notion get.
Most of their ass I do that. I know I can run them, but I don't know if we're going to fall into that place where we want to.
Okay, we challenge you to a do you know, a wwe fight here type of thing.
But it is it's a natural reaction. I think it's one of the reasons we're losing so many men, and again it's multi ethnic. It's not just white men. We're losing them. We're losing them to these guys online. We're losing the people that I'm bringing on this podcast as well.
These are bad guys though, These are bad guys.
But they exist, and we could deny the exist. They exist. Not only the exist, they persist, and they're actually influencing young kids every single day.
How do we put some of those guys back under a rock.
I think we have to first understand what their motivations are. I think we have to understand what they're actually doing.
And I don't think that's a racism and misogyny.
I think there's a lot of that, but I don't think it's exclusive will be that. When you talk to a guy like Steve Bannon, you know, he reminded me a little bit of my grandfather when he talks about working folks and he talks about how we hollowed out the industrial coilist country. I understand that. But so we can dismiss the notion of election denihalism, we could completely dismiss what he did on January sixth, but I don't think you can dismiss. What he's saying reminds me a lot of what Bernie Sanders was saying, reminds me a lot of what democrats said twenty thirty years ago.
I mean, he's arguing he must right.
He hates musk, he hates the oligarchy. He totally agrees with you on the concentration of monopolistic powers. He completely dismisses the notion that we should extend the tax cuts for corporations and the very wealthy. He thinks we should lower taxes for the middle class and wants to see increase taxes.
But now when people say we should message, I can't message to misogynists. I can't message that women shouldn't have you.
But I think if we say people are misogynists, then we're falling prey. We're in that frame. Not everybody that disagrees with us is a misogynist. But I think this notion of toxicity in masculinity us to be separated, and I think it's been conflated, and I think we're going to have to work on that a little bit.
I think some of us scare them. I think I scare them a little bit. Why they spend so much time on it. No, I'm serious, because I can't fix the truck. They know I'm not bullshitting on this. I'm not putting this in people's grill. I don't know if my identity is not hunting, my identity is not football coaching, My identity is not you know, a beard in a truck.
I like all those things. But how did we get to this?
Where have they figured it out that the identity piece of this is more important than the actual substance behind.
Well, they've been doing it for decades. I mean, we've saw the welfare queen's They've seen the Southern strategy. We've seen it over and over. It's an old playbook, and we're as dumb as we want to be that we allow them to do this with CRT and ESG and DEI and every three letter word. And they demonize people, Yeah, demonized, and they weaponize grievance. They other people, They talk down to people, past people, they humiliate people, they weaponize difficult issues. But the problem line is, and I think it goes back to what we began with is and I applaud you for this, is we cannot continue to be on the defense reacting to this, We've got to go on the offense. We've got to meet people where they are. But I also think this and this is where you know, this is part of the conversation I'm trying to have is you got to respect people you disagree with, even you can't just dismiss people. We can't just turn our back on people. What you've learned from those guys that not only they have a huge following, there's a rationale, there's a ration. Look for Steve Banner. I'm not here to defend Steve Banner. I couldn't agree with you more as it relates to what he did on an election denihilism and you know, look that guy that he is. There's we could spend hours and hours going down the rabbit hole of Steve Bannett. But what he's talking about in terms of populism, what he's talking about in terms of working folks, what he's talking about from a global construct, about what's happened to Middle America and rural Americans and why they've lost trust with our party. What he's talking about with what's happening with men in this country and how they've lost their way and how they have significantly higher suicide rates. Lives of that are, you know, more despair and isolation. I think those are real issues that our party needs to come to grit.
Their populism went not over ours, because I'm actually a Prairie populist.
But I think we stopped talking about those things. We're not talking about what's going on with men in this guy my wife did a documentary called The Mask You Live In fifteen years ago, was talking about these things. Somehow, I don't know what happened. The party never picked up on these core things. There's trend lin. I mean, Scott Galloway gets it. He's a good, good guy across the board. There's a crisis of men and masculine in this country, and that's a hard thing for Democrats because we want to lift up women, we want to lift up the oppressed.
I think some of that comes from the dread as we lift up.
I always use this analogy that there's a whole bunch of people Gavin that see rights like a pie. If somebody gets some, they lose part of their pie. Yeah, ridiculous that way expanding rights that there's no one I keep coming back to that idea and this idea of freedom that well, that can be everybody. I don't know why they're in these small, little, narrow, divisive issues other than I think some of these people are masterful at it so they can get to their two goal, which is to cut taxes for the wealthy and shift shift wealth in their direction.
And by the way, and concurrently increase taxes for the middle class and the poor. And people forget that some of the highest tax plays. I mean, I live in a state and like your state was literally I mean, look exactly, by the way, what's what Bannon is arguing for, which is interesting and ironic considering some of the punitry. But let me just you know, make this point because it needs to be made. In Florida and Texas, they tax their poorest more than we tack our riches. The hell are we losing this tax debate?
Yes? Who are you for percent? You'll pay more high tax states apparently. Yeah.
And they have higher infant mentality, higher maternal mentality, lower wages, they have lower ensured.
Lower life expect every Yeah.
And by the way, seventy one I'm going to keep going. Seventy one percent of the economy in this country are Metro Blue Metro. So point being it's not that we're not right, but I think we're wrong not to understand more deeply and fully that people think we are deeply full of ourselves and we're talking down to people and past people. People want to be protected, they want to be respected, and they want to be connected. And I think this notion of respect is something that keeps coming back to me. People that just feel like we don't respect them.
How do we do that, though heaven and lay down a clear marker that you're not going to demonize LGBTQ people.
We're not going to happen.
How do we lay that market on because I'm not going to get into their their space with them of that that's what a man looks like, you know, demonizing these How do we stay firm, show that we're committed and not compromise on those values that we care about.
I mean, do we continue to do what you and I have done. We've led the nation in terms of laws anti discrimination laws. We have the back of our diverse communities. We don't just rhetorically say that we've done it through laws and regulations. We stand firm at the same time, you know, with respect. And this is where obviously, you know, I've kind of It's not like it even a break. I just think there's there are areas where we may overreach, and I think we have to acknowledge that as well. And if you don't acknowledge that, then I think you're going to lose people on everything else. I mean, I look at the issue of gay marriage, and remember I was in two thousand and four when our party was dismissing me because I sat and I said it was wrong to deny people the right to get buried or they're one of the same sex. And my party vehemently opposed that, and they were very vocal about it, the major leaders in our party.
I remember this. I ran on it in two thousand and six in a conservative district.
God bless you, and stood on principle.
Are we not doing that enough right now?
No, we are doing that. We continue to do that. I think we're firm in our foundation in terms of supporting our diverse communities. It's not that I think there's a broader message lot and there's a whole there's a whole world out there that's not just about protecting those rights, it's about also a knowledging the pain that other people are feeling that often are not part of our rhetoric and our agenda, and that's what I think we need to exploit it.
You're on I'm curious to listen.
I want to listen to Ezra next week because because I think that's the other thing that I think we talk a lot, and we have to deliver more.
You've delivered.
I think we've delivered in Minnesota, and I've seen this. When you deliver on things that improve people's lives, it's amazing how good the politics is behind that if you have good policies and get things done. And part of that is I think where Ezra's getting that is is do your best work, but acknowledge you know, really this agency is not doing that much for people. Like I'm doing this thing, just simple things to make them getting their driver's license eesier. You and I both deal with this the DMV, Like I'm trying to find why do we make them go every year? Maybe we should go every two years, you know, just something that people want to see. We did this thing where you can now get your license tabs through a vending machine at cub Foods, so you just go up there. It takes you too many that you put in your stuff and it spits out your tabs. You put your tabs on. That one to me is as conservatives are like good, I didn't have to deal with government. It was efficient, it was easy, but that was government. But it was good functioning government.
That's it. And that's that's so you were Doge before Doge without the pejorda sense of Joge, which.
Is not about that.
It's about that's about recklessness, that's just about destroying the administrative state. But what you're talking about is government efficiency, focusing on outcomes not just inputs, meaning customers where they are, which I love, and that's got to be part of our core messaging. And I think that's our challenge with Doge is we're reacting to Doge by saying it's all terrible, which it has been to date. For this notion of government efficiency.
It works so well formed because people believe that.
And look, there's been forty years since you know, your predecessor Reagan told them. You know, you don't want to see government coming. Government can be a great force of good, whether it's protecting your personal rights, whether it's Indivadie look.
Good for SpaceX.
I hope they succeed, but let's be clear, SpaceX stands on the shoulders of NASA giants and that's our taxpayer dollar that did that. There are great things, but I've always been a firm believer we can do the research, send it into the private sector, let them improve, you know, monetize it, and help people as long as there's guardrails. I think we find ourselves now pushing back anything that's business oriented. We're kind of negative to. I feel I'm hearing it from the business community. Look like they don't like Trump right now. They're not being courageous enough, in my opinion, to speak out, but they don't like this. But they also say, well, I don't hear a lot from you guys saying that, you know, these businesses added to the cultural you know, tapestry of Minneapolis.
My found I thought, I thought it was a master class. It offended all of us. It offended me. But also I thought it was a master class to have all those folks up there on stage. I mean, Trump was able to communicate without saying a word, his support for free enterprise. The same time it was I thought, you know, it was kind of humiliating. For those folks that felt they had to go up there. I think it was fear that they were up there for though, yeah course, I mean they had to fall in line. I mean, this guy doesn't play by any rules, and that's why there's more options Democrats can't cover by fear.
But I've said this, Gavin, I talked fourth grade. Fear is an incredible short term motivator, so you change behaviors.
Though for the long run, what are we going to have to do?
You know, you feel this excitement, you have these rallies, but what's that translating into. You know, what's that turning into?
Well, I think I mean look back to I think this forensic that's not just tactical. It's not just about you know how we can sort of just stretch and get another twenty thirty thousand votes in these swing states. I mean, I think it's I think it's an opportunity for us to address some of the issues we just discussed. I love that you said you can't be pro job and anti business. I mean you made a case for entrepreneurialism and innovation and research and development. I love that. I want Democrats to talk more about that. I want us to talk more about not begrudging people's success, but celebrating success. Is to be the aspirational party. I want to talk about patriotism and pride, not just sorry and and sorry GUV, but just you know. Back to Clinton, I love what Bill Clinton said when he talked about community, opportunity, and responsibility. I think we don't talk enough about responsibility. And I appreciated the opportunity agenda. I appreciate our focus on community and building community, But what about responsibility? What about service? What about civics? What about these notions the things that bind us together, all our interesting differences. We're good at focusing on interesting differences, but what about the things that unite us together. I think that's what people want to hear from our party.
People want to be part of something. That's why they're on with Trump. They're part of something, They're part of a team. I've always said this. In high school, I did everything. I coached all the sports, I worked on the play, the musical, I sponsored the student trips, I built the prom I did all that because what I understood was is kids will gravitate to groups, and it's better to be in the musical than in a gang. It's better to be with this group of kids in school, so we know this. If a kid is part of something, they do that. And I'm telling you this disenfranchisement with men, this not being there. Whatever they might have played on football teams, I think Trump gives them that feeling that I'm on the team.
I wear the same colors I do all this, don't look. You can laugh while you want about red hats. People like those damn things, don't they. And maybe some of it's sticking it in our grill, but I think it's being part of something bigger than themselves. And right now the Democratic Party doesn't feel like something bigger than themselves, and that's our whole goal.
Community.
I love it, no look, And that's why I'm such a believer in service, such a believer in shared experiences.
And I just kind to copy what you did on the service stuff. I said, Stanley Macrystal. You there's a few folks out there talking about this, you know, use service learning and these types of things. Stuff I've been interested in too. From the teacher perspective. If you do that, you are so engaged in your community. Now we celebrate and we rightfully should those who join and serve in the military. But there's numerous ways to serve your country, got it, not in uniform. And I'm thinking as we become more fragmented, our media becomes more fragmented, our TV becomes more fragmented. People want to be part of something. I think Trump knew that before us, and he brought them into that. And I you know, that's why you in the catchphrases and stuff. It may seem cheesy, but we're missing it. We're missing where people are not wanting to become part of something.
I said, the universality of this notion of being protected and respected. But back to your point, one hundred percent agree connected. We all need to be connected. There's an unmooring that's going on in society. There's there's I mean, people just feel lost, they feel more isolated, they feel more alone, and again particularly for young men, and so I just think we have to acknowledge that, we have to address that, we have to be sensitive to that, and we have to be willing to have those conversations and not feel like we're playing into the right wing. When we're having those conversations.
Politics will follow that.
Yeah, And it's it's in the politics. Go back to what you said, which I love mat its just the principle, Like what I love about you, and you know, and we're out of time, so I'm just going to end with just just mad respect is you're a man of principle, You're a man of values. You're a decent and honorable person. Forget the politician. What I love about the politician, Governor Walls is that you're all of those things I just said before the word politician.
I appreciate it.
No, and we'll we'll find the political way back. But I think we have to have some humility in terms of where we are, and I think we we can't be I just think we have to be careful about being too dismissive of where they are and the progress they've made. And I know, I know you you broadly agree with that, and I think the vast majority of people do. But I think we're this is an existential moment and our unity, our unity against Trump, is not increasing our trust. It's not helping the Democratic brand.
You know.
The more we attack Troupe, which is great, I mean, we've got to do it. We've got to hold them to account. And people, are you hear it? What do you say the primal screen?
We got to offer them something, we got offer we.
Have to exactly and that's what we need to I think that's that's that's the sole searching that we need.
We have to be the vikings to their packers, is what I would say, Gavin.
So we got to get people in.
And I think I would say to your listeners and everybody out there that we're going to have to ruffle feathers. We as Democrats aren't going to agree on everything, but our values are still there and we have to figure out how to have that. And I would ask, you know, a frustrated and scared, to be honest with you, scared electorate to stay engaged. They are, that's what they're showing up those town halls. And then I would encourage our folks to listen and rise to the moment and do the things that we need to do to get back, not to win elections, but to influence policy in a positive way.
So I'm grateful. I know you've got a big job.
You govern a country, and you and.
I both have day jobs which we can't forget. But look, this notion of a big tent, A big tent, that's what That's what built the middle class in the fifties, sixties, and seventies. What's brought us medicaid and medicare. That's what brought us the minimum wages we know it today. It was a big tent.
Or unions lean into labor. Unions and labor.
It's got to be workers center, industrial policy, that's workers centered. Uh. That's Tim Waltz my guest today here.
On The Guy.
This is Kevin Newsome. It's great to have you.
Thanks so much.
