What if the church is trapped in the same invisible loop as an addict — and doesn't know it?

What does addiction science have to do with the body of Christ? More than you'd think. In this follow-up conversation, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma build on their interview with Dr. David Van Dyke (Wheaton College Marriage & Family Therapy) to explore how systems thinking unlocks a deeper understanding of church health, Christian formation, and why faithful people keep repeating the same destructive patterns.

Drawing on Kent Dunnington's groundbreaking work Virtue and Addiction, the conversation reveals that the opposite of virtue isn't simply vice — it's addiction. Both are habit-formed, systems-shaped realities. The hosts then turn this lens on the church: from organizational cultures stuck in toxic loops, to single-issue political formation, to Pharaoh's fear-driven decision-making in Exodus — and what it all reveals about how invisible systems shape us without our awareness.

This is a rare conversation: calm, theologically rigorous, and genuinely challenging for anyone who wants to think clearly about what it means to be the body of Christ in the world today.

Key Takeaways:
Why addiction is the true opposite of virtue — not vice — according to philosopher Kent Dunnington
How invisible systems shape our habits, reactions, and identities without our awareness
Why single-issue political engagement may be forming us into political animals rather than disciples
The Pharaoh principle: how fear-driven, system-bound thinking causes us to miss what God is doing
The Ephesus problem: the danger of being doctrinally right but missionally withdrawn
What Jeremiah 7 and Acts 7 reveal about mistaking second-order goods (doctrine, temples) for first-order realities
What does a multi-denominational coffee shop Bible study teach the church about unity?

Get early access and a bonus with aPatreon membership.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

What if the church is trapped in the same invisible loop as an addict &mdash; and doesn't know it?
What does addiction science have to do with the body of Christ? More than you'd think. In this follow-up conversation, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma build on their interview with Dr. David Van Dyke (Wheaton College Marriage &amp; Family Therapy) to explore how systems thinking unlocks a deeper understanding of church health, Christian formation, and why faithful people keep repeating the same destructive patterns.
Drawing on Kent Dunnington's groundbreaking work Virtue and Addiction, the conversation reveals that the opposite of virtue isn't simply vice &mdash; it's addiction. Both are habit-formed, systems-shaped realities. The hosts then turn this lens on the church: from organizational cultures stuck in toxic loops, to single-issue political formation, to Pharaoh's fear-driven decision-making in Exodus &mdash; and what it all reveals about how invisible systems shape us without our awareness.
This is a rare conversation: calm, theologically rigorous, and genuinely challenging for anyone who wants to think clearly about what it means to be the body of Christ in the world today.
Key Takeaways:
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">Why addiction is the true opposite of virtue &mdash; not vice &mdash; according to philosopher Kent Dunnington</li>
<li aria-level="1">How invisible systems shape our habits, reactions, and identities without our awareness</li>
<li aria-level="1">Why single-issue political engagement may be forming us into political animals rather than disciples</li>
<li aria-level="1">The Pharaoh principle: how fear-driven, system-bound thinking causes us to miss what God is doing</li>
<li aria-level="1">The Ephesus problem: the danger of being doctrinally right but missionally withdrawn</li>
<li aria-level="1">What Jeremiah 7 and Acts 7 reveal about mistaking second-order goods (doctrine, temples) for first-order realities</li>
<li aria-level="1">What does a multi-denominational coffee shop Bible study teach the church about unity?</li>
</ul>
Get early access and a bonus with a <a href="https://www.patreon.com/c/thinkingchristian/membership">Patreon membership</a>.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Find more from James at https://www.thinkingchristian.org/.

Christians shouldn&rsquo;t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://www.thinkingchristian.org/">https://www.thinkingchristian.org/</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

Christians shouldn&rsquo;t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://www.thinkingchristian.org/">https://www.thinkingchristian.org/</a>.

Systems, Virtue & the Body of Christ

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/fb1fad01-96b3-4475-bd18-b46500976b91/transcript

What does it mean to be human — really? In an age of AI, transhumanism, and relentless technological "progress," Christians are making confident claims about humanity without a solid theological foundation underneath them. In this episode, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Marc Cortez, Dean of the Litvin School of Divinity at Wheaton College, to explore one of the most urgent and underdeveloped doctrines in Christian thought: theological anthropology.

Dr. Cortez challenges the tendency to let the Image of God do all the heavy lifting — and makes a compelling case that the human body is not merely an instrument of the soul, but is fundamental to what it means to be made in God's 

image. Drawing from ancient idol language in Genesis 1, the resurrection, and modern cognitive science, this conversation reorients how Christians should think about embodiment, flourishing, technology, and even taking care of a tree.

If you've ever wondered whether your theology can hold up in a world reshaped by AI, this is the episode to start with.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
The Image of God (Imago Dei) uses ancient idol language — humans are the material means by which God manifests His divine presence in the world
We cannot think well about AI, transhumanism, sexuality, race, or disability without first building a robust theology of embodiment
The soul-body hierarchy in Christian history was never meant to devalue the body — but it almost always has
"Spiritual maturity" and "physical health" belong on the same list — our bifurcation of them reveals a modern, unbiblical blind spot
Before making confident claims about technology making us "less human," ask the prior question: what does it mean to be human in the first place?
Christian eschatology (resurrected, transformed bodies) gives us more theological complexity around human enhancement than most people realize
Dr. Cortez's shorthand for the Image of God: "We are the material means by which God is seeking to manifest His divine presence in a unique way in the world."

Get early access and a bonus with aPatreon membership.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

What does it mean to be human &mdash; really? In an age of AI, transhumanism, and relentless technological "progress," Christians are making confident claims about humanity without a solid theological foundation underneath them. In this episode, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Marc Cortez, Dean of the Litvin School of Divinity at Wheaton College, to explore one of the most urgent and underdeveloped doctrines in Christian thought: theological anthropology.
Dr. Cortez challenges the tendency to let the Image of God do all the heavy lifting &mdash; and makes a compelling case that the human body is not merely an instrument of the soul, but is fundamental to what it means to be made in God's&nbsp;
image. Drawing from ancient idol language in Genesis 1, the resurrection, and modern cognitive science, this conversation reorients how Christians should think about embodiment, flourishing, technology, and even taking care of a tree.
If you've ever wondered whether your theology can hold up in a world reshaped by AI, this is the episode to start with.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">The Image of God (Imago Dei) uses ancient idol language &mdash; humans are the material means by which God manifests His divine presence in the world</li>
<li aria-level="1">We cannot think well about AI, transhumanism, sexuality, race, or disability without first building a robust theology of embodiment</li>
<li aria-level="1">The soul-body hierarchy in Christian history was never meant to devalue the body &mdash; but it almost always has</li>
<li aria-level="1">"Spiritual maturity" and "physical health" belong on the same list &mdash; our bifurcation of them reveals a modern, unbiblical blind spot</li>
<li aria-level="1">Before making confident claims about technology making us "less human," ask the prior question: what does it mean to be human in the first place?</li>
<li aria-level="1">Christian eschatology (resurrected, transformed bodies) gives us more theological complexity around human enhancement than most people realize</li>
<li aria-level="1">Dr. Cortez's shorthand for the Image of God: "We are the material means by which God is seeking to manifest His divine presence in a unique way in the world."</li>
</ul>
Get early access and a bonus with a <a href="https://www.patreon.com/c/thinkingchristian/membership">Patreon membership</a>.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

What does it actually mean to be human?

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/2b2a0866-7d2a-49b3-8420-b465009fc5fa/transcript

Most people think of mental health as an individual problem. Dr. David J. Van Dyke — professor, marriage and family therapist, and co-host of the With You podcast — thinks that's exactly the wrong frame. In this episode, Dr. Spencer and Ashish sit down with David to unpack how family systems therapy fundamentally reorients the way we see suffering, relationships, and even the gospel itself.

From a rebellious teenager who kept losing possessions until there was nothing left to take, to Paul's language of perseverance in suffering, David draws a sweeping line between relational science and redemptive theology. He argues the entire arc of Scripture — from the intimacy of Eden to the rupture of the Fall to the systemic intervention of the Incarnation — is a relational rupture-and-repair story. And that changes everything about how we do therapy, parenting, church leadership, and discipleship.

If you've ever wondered why "doing everything right" doesn't guarantee good outcomes, why moral failure in a pastor becomes a congregational crisis, or what Phil Jackson and the Book of Job have in common — this conversation is for you.

Key Takeaways
Systems, not individuals, carry symptoms. Depression, anxiety, and misbehaviour often serve a function within the relational system — not just the person.
The therapist's real question is "how," not "why." Asking why digs into individual meaning; asking how reveals the relational dance keeping a system stuck.
The Incarnation as systemic intervention. Christ didn't just save individuals — He changed the rules of the game. Second-order change.
Resilience grows from optimal frustration, not comfort. Numbing pain also numbs joy. The goal is to come alongside suffering, not remove it.
Isolation is poison to the human soul. An embodied, safe community is the prerequisite for every hard conversation the church needs to have.
Love your spouse as an act of worship. Not a transaction. Not what they deserve. As worship — and it rewires the entire relational dynamic.
Western individualism is a therapy problem too. In Illinois, 1 in 15 licensed mental health providers is a marriage and family therapist. The rest are trained to see individuals. The relational blind spot is systemic.

Get early access and a bonus with aPatreon membership.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Most people think of mental health as an individual problem. Dr. David J. Van Dyke &mdash; professor, marriage and family therapist, and co-host of the&nbsp;With You podcast &mdash; thinks that's exactly the wrong frame. In this episode, Dr. Spencer and Ashish sit down with David to unpack how family systems therapy fundamentally reorients the way we see suffering, relationships, and even the gospel itself.
From a rebellious teenager who kept losing possessions until there was nothing left to take, to Paul's language of perseverance in suffering, David draws a sweeping line between relational science and redemptive theology. He argues the entire arc of Scripture &mdash; from the intimacy of Eden to the rupture of the Fall to the systemic intervention of the Incarnation &mdash; is a relational rupture-and-repair story. And that changes everything about how we do therapy, parenting, church leadership, and discipleship.
If you've ever wondered why "doing everything right" doesn't guarantee good outcomes, why moral failure in a pastor becomes a congregational crisis, or what Phil Jackson and the Book of Job have in common &mdash; this conversation is for you.
Key Takeaways
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">Systems, not individuals, carry symptoms. Depression, anxiety, and misbehaviour often serve a function within the relational system &mdash; not just the person.</li>
<li aria-level="1">The therapist's real question is "how," not "why." Asking why digs into individual meaning; asking how reveals the relational dance keeping a system stuck.</li>
<li aria-level="1">The Incarnation as systemic intervention. Christ didn't just save individuals &mdash; He changed the rules of the game. Second-order change.</li>
<li aria-level="1">Resilience grows from optimal frustration, not comfort. Numbing pain also numbs joy. The goal is to come alongside suffering, not remove it.</li>
<li aria-level="1">Isolation is poison to the human soul. An embodied, safe community is the prerequisite for every hard conversation the church needs to have.</li>
<li aria-level="1">Love your spouse as an act of worship. Not a transaction. Not what they deserve. As worship &mdash; and it rewires the entire relational dynamic.</li>
<li aria-level="1">Western individualism is a therapy problem too. In Illinois, 1 in 15 licensed mental health providers is a marriage and family therapist. The rest are trained to see individuals. The relational blind spot is systemic.</li>
</ul>
Get early access and a bonus with a <a href="https://www.patreon.com/c/thinkingchristian/membership">Patreon membership</a>.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

What if your family's biggest problem isn't the person acting out — it's the system they're trapped in?

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/7607c799-1130-4478-b210-b465008a7825/transcript

Is Christian parenting a strict formula to execute, or an art form to practice?

In a culture that bombards Christian parents with exhaustive 10-step checklists and uniform blueprints for family life, it is remarkably easy to accidentally provoke or exasperate our children. This week, Dr. James Spencer, PhD and Dr. Ashish Varma return to the podcast to look at fatherhood through the lens of scriptural wisdom rather than cultural anxieties.

True biblical wisdom doesn't produce recipe-followers; it forms adaptive disciples. Pulling from the book of Proverbs, the Sermon on the Mount, and the letters of Paul, James and Ashish discuss why parenting requires holy improvisation—a pastoral sensitivity that allows a father to receive his children exactly as they are and adjust his training to fit their unique design.

In this episode, we discuss:
The "Chopped" Mystery Basket: Viewing your child's distinct traits as raw ingredients that require expert, customized care.
The Education Fit: An honest, non-judgmental look at public vs. private schooling, and why identical principles led both hosts to entirely different local schooling choices for their kids.
Healthy Friction vs. Exasperation: Learning how far to push a child to build resilience without crossing the line into crushing their spirit.
The Long Game: Moving past the urge to "fix" every behavioral issue instantly, focusing instead on building the profound, long-term trust your children will need well into adulthood.

Form your character, drop the rigid checklists, and learn to enjoy the beautiful, improvisational calling of being a dad.

Get early access and a bonus with aPatreon membership.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

Join the movement: Sign up for our direct line loop of 140k believers at thinkingchristian.org.

Is Christian parenting a strict formula to execute, or an art form to practice?
In a culture that bombards Christian parents with exhaustive 10-step checklists and uniform blueprints for family life, it is remarkably easy to accidentally provoke or exasperate our children. This week, Dr. James Spencer, PhD and Dr. Ashish Varma return to the podcast to look at fatherhood through the lens of scriptural wisdom rather than cultural anxieties.
True biblical wisdom doesn't produce recipe-followers; it forms adaptive disciples. Pulling from the book of Proverbs, the Sermon on the Mount, and the letters of Paul, James and Ashish discuss why parenting requires holy improvisation&mdash;a pastoral sensitivity that allows a father to receive his children exactly as they are and adjust his training to fit their unique design.
In this episode, we discuss:
<ol>
<li>The "Chopped" Mystery Basket: Viewing your child's distinct traits as raw ingredients that require expert, customized care.</li>
<li>The Education Fit: An honest, non-judgmental look at public vs. private schooling, and why identical principles led both hosts to entirely different local schooling choices for their kids.</li>
<li>Healthy Friction vs. Exasperation: Learning how far to push a child to build resilience without crossing the line into crushing their spirit.</li>
<li>The Long Game: Moving past the urge to "fix" every behavioral issue instantly, focusing instead on building the profound, long-term trust your children will need well into adulthood.</li>
</ol>
Form your character, drop the rigid checklists, and learn to enjoy the beautiful, improvisational calling of being a dad.
Get early access and a bonus with a <a href="https://www.patreon.com/c/thinkingchristian/membership">Patreon membership</a>.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
Join the movement: Sign up for our direct line loop of 140k believers at <a href="https://www.thinkingchristian.org/learn/articles">thinkingchristian.org</a>.

Why Your Parenting Checklist is Failing (And What Scripture Offers Instead)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/3eac2be5-44f3-4058-901c-b45c00f31ce5/transcript

Systems, Virtue & the Body of Christ

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Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

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