In this episode, James continues his conversation Ayanda Khumalo. Ayanda recently released his album titled In Jesus. He is also getting ready to release his second children's book as a follow-up to Aya and Abba. Ayanda and James continue to discuss Ayanda's music and the reason he decided to write a children's book. 

You can find Ayanda's album on iTunes and a variety of other platforms, which can be found at theakmusic.com.

Check out Aya and Abba at amazon.com.

In this episode, James continues his conversation Ayanda Khumalo. Ayanda recently released his album titled In Jesus. He is also getting ready to release his second children's book as a follow-up to Aya and Abba. Ayanda and James continue to discuss Ayanda's music and the reason he decided to write a children's book. 
You can find Ayanda's album on <a href="https://music.apple.com/us/album/in-jesus/1719095163">iTunes</a> and a variety of other platforms, which can be found at <a href="https://www.theakmusic.com/music.html">theakmusic.com</a>.
Check out Aya and Abba at <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Aya-Abba-Ayanda-Khumalo/dp/B08N9BY9RF/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2V1Y8GAHJ4AQZ&amp;dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.0Era6P_5SAI093iETLcgzWaUVXjvS-chfbTL_x5GCb42QxmPqZlzXqddZrWDB_3SZscCIfXLrw4W-4YgqjeH8w9jRlUGSBZAJNHMwMBF5uSJZ3VaidXtd6yXwNGvWrzJ4JuwJ1X3NyN45e7zOXNflMT5Z-Vz8BrWDhwdFYEztUBFTO1nvVYsPS91WuKsOeDzqlg1cO5XrJaAoYC9V3lSZYDdn0sLfSz6Jpb1D-9qjK0.I-8YUr160ZXunODDXfPsz7orq1HXF6XX_XbNUccfy4M&amp;dib_tag=se&amp;keywords=ayanda+khumalo&amp;qid=1708962743&amp;sprefix=ayanda+khumalo%2Caps%2C83&amp;sr=8-1">amazon.com</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Find more from James at https://usefultogod.com/.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/.</a>

How Should Christians Think about Worship? A Conversation with Ayanda Khumalo, Part 2

In this episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Rev. Dr. Andrew Hale, pastor, author, and host of CBF Conversations and Clergy Confessions, to discuss his new book Mending the Fracturing Church: How to Navigate Conflict and Build Trust for Thriving Communities.

Drawing on decades of ministry experience—and insights from cognitive psychology, social psychology, trauma studies, and theology—Andrew argues that church conflict today cannot be understood merely as a theological or political problem. Instead, it reflects deeper issues of discipleship, anxiety, embodied trauma, media fragmentation, and generational formation.

James and Andrew explore why church conflict feels uniquely intense in this moment, even though the church has alwaysbeen marked by disagreement. They examine how political polarization, algorithm-driven media, generational divides, and unaddressed physiological stress shape congregational life—often overwhelming the formative power of Scripture and worship.

A central claim of the conversation is that discipleship has failed to keep pace with formation pressures. Congregants spend far more time immersed in outrage-driven media ecosystems than in practices that shape Christlike humility, patience, and love of neighbor. The result is a church increasingly reactive, defensive, and fragile.

The episode also wrestles with difficult but necessary questions:


Is church fracture rooted less in ideology and more in unresolved trauma?


How do time, patience, and humility function in genuine spiritual formation?


What happens when faithfulness is reduced to being “right” rather than honoring one another?


How do different generations carry distinct “prototypes” of Jesus shaped by their historical circumstances?

Rather than offering quick fixes, Andrew calls churches back to slow, relational work: intergenerational presence, shared meals, play, embodied practices, and renewed attention to the whole person—mind, body, and soul. Drawing from Acts 2, the Gospels, and family systems theory, he argues that healing church communities begins not with better programming, but with learning to be with one another again.

This episode is a candid, hopeful, and theologically grounded conversation for anyone who loves the church and wants to see it become healthier, more faithful, and more resilient in a fractured age.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

You can get a copy of Andrew's book at www.amazon.com

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

In this episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Rev. Dr. Andrew Hale, pastor, author, and host of CBF Conversations and Clergy Confessions, to discuss his new book <a href="https://amzn.to/4tlEqrD">Mending the Fracturing Church: How to Navigate Conflict and Build Trust for Thriving Communities</a>.
Drawing on decades of ministry experience&mdash;and insights from cognitive psychology, social psychology, trauma studies, and theology&mdash;Andrew argues that church conflict today cannot be understood merely as a theological or political problem. Instead, it reflects deeper issues of discipleship, anxiety, embodied trauma, media fragmentation, and generational formation.
James and Andrew explore why church conflict feels uniquely intense in this moment, even though the church has alwaysbeen marked by disagreement. They examine how political polarization, algorithm-driven media, generational divides, and unaddressed physiological stress shape congregational life&mdash;often overwhelming the formative power of Scripture and worship.
A central claim of the conversation is that discipleship has failed to keep pace with formation pressures. Congregants spend far more time immersed in outrage-driven media ecosystems than in practices that shape Christlike humility, patience, and love of neighbor. The result is a church increasingly reactive, defensive, and fragile.
The episode also wrestles with difficult but necessary questions:
<ul data-start="2314" data-end="2673">
<li data-start="2314" data-end="2389">
Is church fracture rooted less in ideology and more in unresolved trauma?
</li>
<li data-start="2390" data-end="2468">
How do time, patience, and humility function in genuine spiritual formation?
</li>
<li data-start="2469" data-end="2563">
What happens when faithfulness is reduced to being &ldquo;right&rdquo; rather than honoring one another?
</li>
<li data-start="2564" data-end="2673">
How do different generations carry distinct &ldquo;prototypes&rdquo; of Jesus shaped by their historical circumstances?
</li>
</ul>
Rather than offering quick fixes, Andrew calls churches back to slow, relational work: intergenerational presence, shared meals, play, embodied practices, and renewed attention to the whole person&mdash;mind, body, and soul. Drawing from Acts 2, the Gospels, and family systems theory, he argues that healing church communities begins not with better programming, but with learning to be with one another again.
This episode is a candid, hopeful, and theologically grounded conversation for anyone who loves the church and wants to see it become healthier, more faithful, and more resilient in a fractured age.
Subscribe&nbsp;to our&nbsp;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗&nbsp;Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:<a href="https://www.usefultogod.com/">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to&nbsp;subscribe&nbsp;to&nbsp;Thinking Christian&nbsp;so you never miss an insightful conversation!
You can get a copy of Andrew's book at <a href="https://www.amazon.com">www.amazon.com</a>
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Mending the Fracturing Church: Discipleship, Trauma, and Trust (Andrew Hall)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/f91e9903-1603-4753-86a1-b3e8016dd1ed/transcript

In this episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer is joined by John Stonestreet, president of the Colson Center, to discuss the Truth Rising Project—a collaboration between the Colson Center and Focus on the Family.

John explains how Truth Rising emerged from a growing realization: many of the cultural “hypotheticals” Christians debated decades ago have become lived realities. The project frames our moment as what Oz Guinness calls a civilizational moment—a tipping point where cultures become “clipped off” from the roots that once animated them, often leading to decline, upheaval, or (rarely) renewal.

A key theme in the conversation is the difference between faithfulness and effectiveness. James presses the question: What happens when faithfulness doesn’t seem to “work”? John responds by grounding Christian hope not in saving Western civilization, but in the resurrection of Jesus Christ—and echoes Chuck Colson’s memorable line: “Despair is a sin.” Not because outcomes are guaranteed to improve, but because Christ is risen and his kingdom is the true story of the world.

The discussion then turns to cultural destabilization, dehumanization, and what it looks like to live “against the grain of reality.” John and James reflect on the way ideas produce real-world consequences—how societies can treat moral realities like “speed limits” (negotiable) when they function more like “gravity” (inescapable).

Finally, John highlights stories featured in Truth Rising—especially Jack Phillips and Chloe Cole—as examples of courage and costly faithfulness in public life. The episode closes with a practical invitation: Truth Rising is free, designed to equip Christians and churches to live with hope, clarity, and conviction in this moment.

Key topics bullets


Why Colson Center + Focus on the Family launched Truth Rising


Oz Guinness and the idea of a “civilizational moment”


Faithfulness vs. effectiveness—and why hope is rooted in resurrection


“Despair is a sin” (Chuck Colson) and the logic of Christian hope


Dehumanization, identity confusion, and cultural decline


Truth vs. “renegotiated reality”: gravity vs. speed limits


Jack Phillips, Chloe Cole, and the cost of courageous obedience


How to access the free documentary and 8-part study

You can find out more about the Truth Rising project at https://www.truthrising.com.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

In this episode of&nbsp;Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer is joined by John Stonestreet, president of the Colson Center, to discuss the Truth Rising Project&mdash;a collaboration between the Colson Center and Focus on the Family.
John explains how Truth Rising emerged from a growing realization: many of the cultural &ldquo;hypotheticals&rdquo; Christians debated decades ago have become lived realities. The project frames our moment as what Oz Guinness calls a civilizational moment&mdash;a tipping point where cultures become &ldquo;clipped off&rdquo; from the roots that once animated them, often leading to decline, upheaval, or (rarely) renewal.
A key theme in the conversation is the difference between faithfulness and effectiveness. James presses the question: What happens when faithfulness doesn&rsquo;t seem to &ldquo;work&rdquo;? John responds by grounding Christian hope not in saving Western civilization, but in the resurrection of Jesus Christ&mdash;and echoes Chuck Colson&rsquo;s memorable line: &ldquo;Despair is a sin.&rdquo; Not because outcomes are guaranteed to improve, but because Christ is risen and his kingdom is the true story of the world.
The discussion then turns to cultural destabilization, dehumanization, and what it looks like to live &ldquo;against the grain of reality.&rdquo; John and James reflect on the way ideas produce real-world consequences&mdash;how societies can treat moral realities like &ldquo;speed limits&rdquo; (negotiable) when they function more like &ldquo;gravity&rdquo; (inescapable).
Finally, John highlights stories featured in Truth Rising&mdash;especially Jack Phillips and Chloe Cole&mdash;as examples of courage and costly faithfulness in public life. The episode closes with a practical invitation: Truth Rising is free, designed to equip Christians and churches to live with hope, clarity, and conviction in this moment.
Key topics bullets
<ul>
<li>
Why Colson Center + Focus on the Family launched Truth Rising
</li>
<li>
Oz Guinness and the idea of a &ldquo;civilizational moment&rdquo;
</li>
<li>
Faithfulness vs. effectiveness&mdash;and why hope is rooted in resurrection
</li>
<li>
&ldquo;Despair is a sin&rdquo; (Chuck Colson) and the logic of Christian hope
</li>
<li>
Dehumanization, identity confusion, and cultural decline
</li>
<li>
Truth vs. &ldquo;renegotiated reality&rdquo;: gravity vs. speed limits
</li>
<li>
Jack Phillips, Chloe Cole, and the cost of courageous obedience
</li>
<li>
How to access the free documentary and 8-part study
</li>
</ul>
You can find out more about the Truth Rising project at <a href="https://www.truthrising.com">https://www.truthrising.com</a>.
Subscribe&nbsp;to our&nbsp;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗&nbsp;Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:<a href="https://www.usefultogod.com/">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to&nbsp;subscribe&nbsp;to&nbsp;Thinking Christian&nbsp;so you never miss an insightful conversation!
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Truth Rising Project: Hope, Truth, Identity, and Calling for Christians Today (John Stonestreet)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/a34c2971-95d9-48ab-84d4-b3e8016c305b/transcript

What if the most spiritually formative season of the Christian year isn’t Advent or Lent—but the long stretch of ordinary time in between?

In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Amy Peeler, Kenneth T. Wessner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College, to discuss her book Ordinary Time: The Season of Growth, part of the Fullness of Time series from IVP. Together, they explore how the church’s longest season—often overlooked or misunderstood—shapes Christian maturity, patience, and attentiveness to God’s work in everyday life.

Amy shares her own journey from a free-church background into the Anglican tradition, where the church calendarprovides a shared rhythm for worship, discipleship, and formation. Ordinary time, she explains, is neither feast nor fast. Marked by the color green, it reflects growth—slow, patient, often unseen—rather than dramatic spiritual highs. This season mirrors how most of life is actually lived: meals, conversations, work, rest, and faithful obedience in the ordinary.

James and Amy discuss how modern Christians—both liturgical and non-liturgical—often struggle with cadence, reflection, and rest. Without intentional rhythms, churches can become overly programmatic, while individuals drift into distraction, passivity, or burnout. Ordinary time offers a corrective: a space to reflect on God’s work, attend carefully to Scripture, and allow spiritual growth to “catch up” after seasons of intense focus.

The conversation also explores how ordinary time functions formatively:


As a season of growth rather than spectacle


As an extended invitation to rest and receptivity, not spiritual laziness


As a reminder that God is present in the mundane—not just in mountaintop moments

Amy draws on biblical texts (especially Genesis 18) to show how God often appears not in dramatic events, but in ordinary hospitality, conversation, and faithfulness. She also reflects on Trinity Sunday, explaining how ordinary time helps Christians attend more deeply to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—not as abstract doctrine, but as lived worship shaped by prayer, posture, and participation.

Throughout the episode, James and Amy examine how formation happens over time, why Christians need both structure and reflection, and how ordinary time can function almost like an extended Sabbath—a season where believers learn to cease striving and trust God’s work in them.

You can get Ordinary Time at ivpress.com (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount) 

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Topics include:


What “ordinary time” is—and why it matters


The church calendar and Christian formation


Growth, patience, and rest in discipleship


Green as the color of spiritual formation


Ordinary practices as places of divine presence


Genesis 18 and encountering God in the everyday


Trinity Sunday and worshiping the triune God


Liturgical vs. free-church approaches to time and rhythm


Why reflection is essential in a distracted age

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

What if the most spiritually formative season of the Christian year isn&rsquo;t Advent or Lent&mdash;but the long stretch of ordinary time in between?
In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Amy Peeler, Kenneth T. Wessner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College, to discuss her book Ordinary Time: The Season of Growth, part of the Fullness of Time series from IVP. Together, they explore how the church&rsquo;s longest season&mdash;often overlooked or misunderstood&mdash;shapes Christian maturity, patience, and attentiveness to God&rsquo;s work in everyday life.
Amy shares her own journey from a free-church background into the Anglican tradition, where the church calendarprovides a shared rhythm for worship, discipleship, and formation. Ordinary time, she explains, is neither feast nor fast. Marked by the color green, it reflects growth&mdash;slow, patient, often unseen&mdash;rather than dramatic spiritual highs. This season mirrors how most of life is actually lived: meals, conversations, work, rest, and faithful obedience in the ordinary.
James and Amy discuss how modern Christians&mdash;both liturgical and non-liturgical&mdash;often struggle with cadence, reflection, and rest. Without intentional rhythms, churches can become overly programmatic, while individuals drift into distraction, passivity, or burnout. Ordinary time offers a corrective: a space to reflect on God&rsquo;s work, attend carefully to Scripture, and allow spiritual growth to &ldquo;catch up&rdquo; after seasons of intense focus.
The conversation also explores how ordinary time functions formatively:
<ul data-start="2427" data-end="2645">
<li data-start="2427" data-end="2478">
As a season of growth rather than spectacle
</li>
<li data-start="2479" data-end="2560">
As an extended invitation to rest and receptivity, not spiritual laziness
</li>
<li data-start="2561" data-end="2645">
As a reminder that God is present in the mundane&mdash;not just in mountaintop moments
</li>
</ul>
Amy draws on biblical texts (especially Genesis 18) to show how God often appears not in dramatic events, but in ordinary hospitality, conversation, and faithfulness. She also reflects on Trinity Sunday, explaining how ordinary time helps Christians attend more deeply to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit&mdash;not as abstract doctrine, but as lived worship shaped by prayer, posture, and participation.
Throughout the episode, James and Amy examine how formation happens over time, why Christians need both structure and reflection, and how ordinary time can function almost like an extended Sabbath&mdash;a season where believers learn to cease striving and trust God&rsquo;s work in them.
You can get Ordinary Time at <a href="https://www.ivpress.com/ordinary-time-fts">ivpress.com</a> (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount)&nbsp;
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3351" data-end="3804">
<li data-start="3351" data-end="3397">
What &ldquo;ordinary time&rdquo; is&mdash;and why it matters
</li>
<li data-start="3398" data-end="3445">
The church calendar and Christian formation
</li>
<li data-start="3446" data-end="3492">
Growth, patience, and rest in discipleship
</li>
<li data-start="3493" data-end="3538">
Green as the color of spiritual formation
</li>
<li data-start="3539" data-end="3590">
Ordinary practices as places of divine presence
</li>
<li data-start="3591" data-end="3642">
Genesis 18 and encountering God in the everyday
</li>
<li data-start="3643" data-end="3691">
Trinity Sunday and worshiping the triune God
</li>
<li data-start="3692" data-end="3752">
Liturgical vs. free-church approaches to time and rhythm
</li>
<li data-start="3753" data-end="3804">
Why reflection is essential in a distracted age
</li>
</ul>
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Ordinary Time: Spiritual Growth in the Everyday Rhythms of Life (Amy Peeler)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/b705f6d9-b8fe-4844-926e-b3d7016f9854/transcript

How Should Christians Think about Worship? A Conversation with Ayanda Khumalo, Part 2

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