In this thought-provoking episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer welcomes Alex Kocman—missions leader and co-host of the Missions Podcast—for a wide-ranging conversation on immigration, national identity, and how Christians should engage politically without losing sight of Christ’s lordship. Together, they explore Augustine’s ordo amoris (order of loves), the biblical significance of borders and sovereignty, and the tension between compassion for the nations and faithfulness to one's own. Can Christians love both neighbor and nation rightly? Should the Church be silent on political issues—or speak with prophetic clarity? And what does the Great Commission demand of us in an age of global mobility and moral confusion? This episode doesn’t offer sound bites—it offers rooted reflection.

Listen to the Missions Podcast here.

Find out more about Alex at alexkocman.com

🔗 Learn more about Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

For more resources to help you grow in faith and deepen your walk with Christ, visit Useful to God—where you'll find books, courses, podcasts, and more to equip you for faithful Christian living.

In this thought-provoking episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer welcomes Alex Kocman&mdash;missions leader and co-host of the Missions Podcast&mdash;for a wide-ranging conversation on immigration, national identity, and how Christians should engage politically without losing sight of Christ&rsquo;s lordship. Together, they explore Augustine&rsquo;s ordo amoris (order of loves), the biblical significance of borders and sovereignty, and the tension between compassion for the nations and faithfulness to one's own. Can Christians love both neighbor and nation rightly? Should the Church be silent on political issues&mdash;or speak with prophetic clarity? And what does the Great Commission demand of us in an age of global mobility and moral confusion? This episode doesn&rsquo;t offer sound bites&mdash;it offers rooted reflection.
Listen to the Missions Podcast <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-missions-podcast/id1294937234">here</a>.
Find out more about Alex at <a href="https://alexkocman.com">alexkocman.com</a>
🔗 Learn more about Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
For more resources to help you grow in faith and deepen your walk with Christ, visit <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com/">Useful to God</a>&mdash;where you'll find books, courses, podcasts, and more to equip you for faithful Christian living.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Find more from James at https://usefultogod.com/.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/.</a>

Alex Kocman | Borders, Nations, and the Order of Love: A Christian Conversation about Immigration

What should Christians do with the hardest laws in the Bible—texts about slavery, sexual violence, capital punishment, and social inequality? Should they be explained away… or even crossed out?

In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Gary Edward Schnicker, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament at Cairn University, to discuss Schnicker’s recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society examining a provocative proposal by biblical scholar James W. Watts: that “immoral” commands in Scripture—especially in the Torah—should be struck through or repealed.

Watts argues that certain biblical laws are morally indefensible by modern standards and that retaining them enables abuse, violence, and injustice. Schnicker agrees that these texts deeply trouble modern readers—but strongly disagrees with the solution. In this wide-ranging and careful conversation, James and Gary explore why removing or canceling difficult passages creates dangerous “collateral damage”, both theologically and pastorally.

At the heart of the discussion is a crucial claim: many of the biblical laws that offend modern sensibilities are not endorsements of evil, but divine constraints on evil—laws designed to protect the most vulnerable people in the ancient world: slaves, women, the poor, and victims of violence. When these laws are removed or ignored, the Bible is reshaped into something that actually empowers the strong and exposes the weak.

Gary explains how Old Testament law often functions not to establish an ideal society, but to curtail injustice in deeply broken social realities. Drawing on ancient Near Eastern context, Jesus’ own teaching on the law, and long-neglected biblical scholarship, he argues that God meets people where they are—without endorsing the world as it is.

The conversation also addresses:


Why bad interpretation is not the same as biblical meaning


How “reception history” can be misused as a moral veto on Scripture


Why Christians are often embarrassed by parts of the Old Testament


The danger of modern “neo-Marcionism” and un-hitching the Old Testament


Why apologetics answers often fall flat for younger Christians


How ignoring these texts creates faith crises rather than resolving them

James and Gary reflect candidly on the church’s failure to teach these passages well—and how that failure has contributed to widespread biblical confusion, especially in a digital age where moral objections to Scripture circulate constantly but context rarely follows.

Rather than advocating pulpit shock tactics, Schnicker calls pastors, teachers, and church leaders to patient, informed engagement—to stop brushing difficult texts under the carpet and instead learn how they reveal God’s concern for justice, restraint of violence, and care for the vulnerable.

Resources mentioned:


Gary Edward Schnicker, JETS article (available free at carpentersstudent.com)


CarpentersStudent.com (Gary’s Substack)

If you’ve ever struggled with parts of the Old Testament—or wondered why Christians seem embarrassed by their own Scriptures—this episode offers a careful, honest, and deeply pastoral way forward that refuses to cancel the Bible while taking moral questions seriously.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Topics include:


“Immoral” commands in the Torah—what’s really going on?


Law as restraint, not endorsement


Slavery, sexual violence, and justice in the ancient world


Why cutting Scripture creates moral blind spots


The limits of modern moral frameworks


Teaching difficult texts without fear or defensiveness


Rebuilding trust in the Bible for the next generation

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

What should Christians do with the hardest laws in the Bible&mdash;texts about slavery, sexual violence, capital punishment, and social inequality? Should they be explained away&hellip; or even crossed out?
In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Gary Edward Schnicker, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament at Cairn University, to discuss Schnicker&rsquo;s recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society examining a provocative proposal by biblical scholar James W. Watts: that &ldquo;immoral&rdquo; commands in Scripture&mdash;especially in the Torah&mdash;should be struck through or repealed.
Watts argues that certain biblical laws are morally indefensible by modern standards and that retaining them enables abuse, violence, and injustice. Schnicker agrees that these texts deeply trouble modern readers&mdash;but strongly disagrees with the solution. In this wide-ranging and careful conversation, James and Gary explore why removing or canceling difficult passages creates dangerous &ldquo;collateral damage&rdquo;, both theologically and pastorally.
At the heart of the discussion is a crucial claim: many of the biblical laws that offend modern sensibilities are not endorsements of evil, but divine constraints on evil&mdash;laws designed to protect the most vulnerable people in the ancient world: slaves, women, the poor, and victims of violence. When these laws are removed or ignored, the Bible is reshaped into something that actually empowers the strong and exposes the weak.
Gary explains how Old Testament law often functions not to establish an ideal society, but to curtail injustice in deeply broken social realities. Drawing on ancient Near Eastern context, Jesus&rsquo; own teaching on the law, and long-neglected biblical scholarship, he argues that God meets people where they are&mdash;without endorsing the world as it is.
The conversation also addresses:
<ul data-start="2830" data-end="3255">
<li data-start="2830" data-end="2892">
Why bad interpretation is not the same as biblical meaning
</li>
<li data-start="2893" data-end="2964">
How &ldquo;reception history&rdquo; can be misused as a moral veto on Scripture
</li>
<li data-start="2965" data-end="3035">
Why Christians are often embarrassed by parts of the Old Testament
</li>
<li data-start="3036" data-end="3111">
The danger of modern &ldquo;neo-Marcionism&rdquo; and un-hitching the Old Testament
</li>
<li data-start="3112" data-end="3178">
Why apologetics answers often fall flat for younger Christians
</li>
<li data-start="3179" data-end="3255">
How ignoring these texts creates faith crises rather than resolving them
</li>
</ul>
James and Gary reflect candidly on the church&rsquo;s failure to teach these passages well&mdash;and how that failure has contributed to widespread biblical confusion, especially in a digital age where moral objections to Scripture circulate constantly but context rarely follows.
Rather than advocating pulpit shock tactics, Schnicker calls pastors, teachers, and church leaders to patient, informed engagement&mdash;to stop brushing difficult texts under the carpet and instead learn how they reveal God&rsquo;s concern for justice, restraint of violence, and care for the vulnerable.
Resources mentioned:
<ul data-start="4244" data-end="4454">
<li data-start="4244" data-end="4325">
Gary Edward Schnicker, JETS article (available free at <a href="https://CarpentersStudent.com/e/ReparingTorah.pdf">carpentersstudent.com</a>)
</li>
<li data-start="4326" data-end="4373">
<a href="https://www.carpentersstudent.com">CarpentersStudent.com</a> (Gary&rsquo;s Substack)
</li>
</ul>
If you&rsquo;ve ever struggled with parts of the Old Testament&mdash;or wondered why Christians seem embarrassed by their own Scriptures&mdash;this episode offers a careful, honest, and deeply pastoral way forward that refuses to cancel the Bible while taking moral questions seriously.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3846" data-end="4217">
<li data-start="3846" data-end="3905">
&ldquo;Immoral&rdquo; commands in the Torah&mdash;what&rsquo;s really going on?
</li>
<li data-start="3906" data-end="3943">
Law as restraint, not endorsement
</li>
<li data-start="3944" data-end="4006">
Slavery, sexual violence, and justice in the ancient world
</li>
<li data-start="4007" data-end="4058">
Why cutting Scripture creates moral blind spots
</li>
<li data-start="4059" data-end="4100">
The limits of modern moral frameworks
</li>
<li data-start="4101" data-end="4159">
Teaching difficult texts without fear or defensiveness
</li>
<li data-start="4160" data-end="4217">
Rebuilding trust in the Bible for the next generation
</li>
</ul>
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Immoral Torah? Why Removing Hard Biblical Laws Does More Harm Than Good (Gary Edward Schnicker)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/f06df642-fce1-42ee-b040-b3db0112157a/transcript

What if the most spiritually formative season of the Christian year isn’t Advent or Lent—but the long stretch of ordinary time in between?

In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Amy Peeler, Kenneth T. Wessner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College, to discuss her book Ordinary Time: The Season of Growth, part of the Fullness of Time series from IVP. Together, they explore how the church’s longest season—often overlooked or misunderstood—shapes Christian maturity, patience, and attentiveness to God’s work in everyday life.

Amy shares her own journey from a free-church background into the Anglican tradition, where the church calendarprovides a shared rhythm for worship, discipleship, and formation. Ordinary time, she explains, is neither feast nor fast. Marked by the color green, it reflects growth—slow, patient, often unseen—rather than dramatic spiritual highs. This season mirrors how most of life is actually lived: meals, conversations, work, rest, and faithful obedience in the ordinary.

James and Amy discuss how modern Christians—both liturgical and non-liturgical—often struggle with cadence, reflection, and rest. Without intentional rhythms, churches can become overly programmatic, while individuals drift into distraction, passivity, or burnout. Ordinary time offers a corrective: a space to reflect on God’s work, attend carefully to Scripture, and allow spiritual growth to “catch up” after seasons of intense focus.

The conversation also explores how ordinary time functions formatively:


As a season of growth rather than spectacle


As an extended invitation to rest and receptivity, not spiritual laziness


As a reminder that God is present in the mundane—not just in mountaintop moments

Amy draws on biblical texts (especially Genesis 18) to show how God often appears not in dramatic events, but in ordinary hospitality, conversation, and faithfulness. She also reflects on Trinity Sunday, explaining how ordinary time helps Christians attend more deeply to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—not as abstract doctrine, but as lived worship shaped by prayer, posture, and participation.

Throughout the episode, James and Amy examine how formation happens over time, why Christians need both structure and reflection, and how ordinary time can function almost like an extended Sabbath—a season where believers learn to cease striving and trust God’s work in them.

You can get Ordinary Time at ivpress.com (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount) 

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Topics include:


What “ordinary time” is—and why it matters


The church calendar and Christian formation


Growth, patience, and rest in discipleship


Green as the color of spiritual formation


Ordinary practices as places of divine presence


Genesis 18 and encountering God in the everyday


Trinity Sunday and worshiping the triune God


Liturgical vs. free-church approaches to time and rhythm


Why reflection is essential in a distracted age

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

What if the most spiritually formative season of the Christian year isn&rsquo;t Advent or Lent&mdash;but the long stretch of ordinary time in between?
In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer is joined by Dr. Amy Peeler, Kenneth T. Wessner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College, to discuss her book Ordinary Time: The Season of Growth, part of the Fullness of Time series from IVP. Together, they explore how the church&rsquo;s longest season&mdash;often overlooked or misunderstood&mdash;shapes Christian maturity, patience, and attentiveness to God&rsquo;s work in everyday life.
Amy shares her own journey from a free-church background into the Anglican tradition, where the church calendarprovides a shared rhythm for worship, discipleship, and formation. Ordinary time, she explains, is neither feast nor fast. Marked by the color green, it reflects growth&mdash;slow, patient, often unseen&mdash;rather than dramatic spiritual highs. This season mirrors how most of life is actually lived: meals, conversations, work, rest, and faithful obedience in the ordinary.
James and Amy discuss how modern Christians&mdash;both liturgical and non-liturgical&mdash;often struggle with cadence, reflection, and rest. Without intentional rhythms, churches can become overly programmatic, while individuals drift into distraction, passivity, or burnout. Ordinary time offers a corrective: a space to reflect on God&rsquo;s work, attend carefully to Scripture, and allow spiritual growth to &ldquo;catch up&rdquo; after seasons of intense focus.
The conversation also explores how ordinary time functions formatively:
<ul data-start="2427" data-end="2645">
<li data-start="2427" data-end="2478">
As a season of growth rather than spectacle
</li>
<li data-start="2479" data-end="2560">
As an extended invitation to rest and receptivity, not spiritual laziness
</li>
<li data-start="2561" data-end="2645">
As a reminder that God is present in the mundane&mdash;not just in mountaintop moments
</li>
</ul>
Amy draws on biblical texts (especially Genesis 18) to show how God often appears not in dramatic events, but in ordinary hospitality, conversation, and faithfulness. She also reflects on Trinity Sunday, explaining how ordinary time helps Christians attend more deeply to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit&mdash;not as abstract doctrine, but as lived worship shaped by prayer, posture, and participation.
Throughout the episode, James and Amy examine how formation happens over time, why Christians need both structure and reflection, and how ordinary time can function almost like an extended Sabbath&mdash;a season where believers learn to cease striving and trust God&rsquo;s work in them.
You can get Ordinary Time at <a href="https://www.ivpress.com/ordinary-time-fts">ivpress.com</a> (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount)&nbsp;
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3351" data-end="3804">
<li data-start="3351" data-end="3397">
What &ldquo;ordinary time&rdquo; is&mdash;and why it matters
</li>
<li data-start="3398" data-end="3445">
The church calendar and Christian formation
</li>
<li data-start="3446" data-end="3492">
Growth, patience, and rest in discipleship
</li>
<li data-start="3493" data-end="3538">
Green as the color of spiritual formation
</li>
<li data-start="3539" data-end="3590">
Ordinary practices as places of divine presence
</li>
<li data-start="3591" data-end="3642">
Genesis 18 and encountering God in the everyday
</li>
<li data-start="3643" data-end="3691">
Trinity Sunday and worshiping the triune God
</li>
<li data-start="3692" data-end="3752">
Liturgical vs. free-church approaches to time and rhythm
</li>
<li data-start="3753" data-end="3804">
Why reflection is essential in a distracted age
</li>
</ul>
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Ordinary Time: Spiritual Growth in the Everyday Rhythms of Life (Amy Peeler)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/b705f6d9-b8fe-4844-926e-b3d7016f9854/transcript

The abortion conversation in the church is often framed as a political battle—pro-life versus pro-choice, red versus blue. But what if that framing itself is the problem? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencertalks with Angela Weszely, author of Becoming Pro-Grace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice and founder of the Pro-Grace movement, about why Christians need a distinctly theological framework for engaging abortion—one rooted in Jesus rather than political parties.

Angela shares her personal journey into abortion ministry, beginning with work at a Christian pregnancy center in downtown Chicago. What she encountered there unsettled her: well-intentioned Christians operating with a deeply legalistic mindset, prioritizing agendas over people and persuasion over presence. That experience led her into a years-long theological reexamination of how grace, dignity, and the gospel should shape Christian engagement with one of the most emotionally charged issues of our time.

At the heart of the Pro-Grace framework are two core theological commitments. First, equal value and equal dignity—the Imago Dei applies fully to both the woman and the child, rejecting the false binary that pits them against each other. Second, grace as the path of transformation—real change does not come through coercion, shame, or law alone, but through the radical grace of Jesus that heals hearts and restores relationships.

James and Angela explore how political language and party loyalty often distort Christian witness, training believers to see one another as enemies rather than brothers and sisters in Christ. They discuss why laws, while important, are limited tools that can manage brokenness but cannot heal it—and why the church has too often abdicated its responsibility by outsourcing moral formation to government.

The conversation also dives into the lived experience of unintended pregnancy. Drawing on years of qualitative research, Angela highlights three dominant emotional realities women face: panic, isolation, and shame. These realities are rarely acknowledged in political debates, yet they shape nearly every decision made in crisis. James reflects on his own family’s experience with a difficult prenatal diagnosis, underscoring how support, community, and compassion dramatically alter the moral landscape.

Rather than offering a simplistic solution, Pro-Grace calls the church to something deeper: humility, listening, and imagination. What would it look like for Christians to lead with their kingdom identity, allowing political engagement to be shaped—rather than defined—by allegiance to Christ? What if churches became the safest places for women, men, and families navigating pregnancy, loss, and fear?

This episode challenges listeners to rethink not only what they believe about abortion, but how they engage the conversation—inviting Christians into a posture that looks more like Jesus and less like partisan combat.

Topics include:


Why political frameworks distort Christian witness on abortion


The Pro-Grace theological model explained


Equal dignity of women and children (Imago Dei)


Grace versus legalism in Christian ethics


Emotional realities of unintended pregnancy


The limits of law and the responsibility of the church


Why Christians must lead with kingdom identity, not party loyalty


How churches can become truly welcoming communities

You can get Becoming Pro-Grace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice at ivpress.com (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount) 

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

The abortion conversation in the church is often framed as a political battle&mdash;pro-life versus pro-choice, red versus blue. But what if that framing itself is the problem? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencertalks with Angela Weszely, author of Becoming Pro-Grace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice and founder of the Pro-Grace movement, about why Christians need a distinctly theological framework for engaging abortion&mdash;one rooted in Jesus rather than political parties.
Angela shares her personal journey into abortion ministry, beginning with work at a Christian pregnancy center in downtown Chicago. What she encountered there unsettled her: well-intentioned Christians operating with a deeply legalistic mindset, prioritizing agendas over people and persuasion over presence. That experience led her into a years-long theological reexamination of how grace, dignity, and the gospel should shape Christian engagement with one of the most emotionally charged issues of our time.
At the heart of the Pro-Grace framework are two core theological commitments. First, equal value and equal dignity&mdash;the Imago Dei applies fully to both the woman and the child, rejecting the false binary that pits them against each other. Second, grace as the path of transformation&mdash;real change does not come through coercion, shame, or law alone, but through the radical grace of Jesus that heals hearts and restores relationships.
James and Angela explore how political language and party loyalty often distort Christian witness, training believers to see one another as enemies rather than brothers and sisters in Christ. They discuss why laws, while important, are limited tools that can manage brokenness but cannot heal it&mdash;and why the church has too often abdicated its responsibility by outsourcing moral formation to government.
The conversation also dives into the lived experience of unintended pregnancy. Drawing on years of qualitative research, Angela highlights three dominant emotional realities women face: panic, isolation, and shame. These realities are rarely acknowledged in political debates, yet they shape nearly every decision made in crisis. James reflects on his own family&rsquo;s experience with a difficult prenatal diagnosis, underscoring how support, community, and compassion dramatically alter the moral landscape.
Rather than offering a simplistic solution, Pro-Grace calls the church to something deeper: humility, listening, and imagination. What would it look like for Christians to lead with their kingdom identity, allowing political engagement to be shaped&mdash;rather than defined&mdash;by allegiance to Christ? What if churches became the safest places for women, men, and families navigating pregnancy, loss, and fear?
This episode challenges listeners to rethink not only what they believe about abortion, but how they engage the conversation&mdash;inviting Christians into a posture that looks more like Jesus and less like partisan combat.
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3944" data-end="4387">
<li data-start="3944" data-end="4010">
Why political frameworks distort Christian witness on abortion
</li>
<li data-start="4011" data-end="4056">
The Pro-Grace theological model explained
</li>
<li data-start="4057" data-end="4108">
Equal dignity of women and children (Imago Dei)
</li>
<li data-start="4109" data-end="4154">
Grace versus legalism in Christian ethics
</li>
<li data-start="4155" data-end="4202">
Emotional realities of unintended pregnancy
</li>
<li data-start="4203" data-end="4261">
The limits of law and the responsibility of the church
</li>
<li data-start="4262" data-end="4331">
Why Christians must lead with kingdom identity, not party loyalty
</li>
<li data-start="4332" data-end="4387">
How churches can become truly welcoming communities
</li>
</ul>
You can get Becoming Pro-Grace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice at <a href="https://www.ivpress.com/becoming-prograce">ivpress.com</a> (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount)&nbsp;
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
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Becoming Pro-Grace: A Christian Response to Abortion Beyond Politics (Angela Weszley)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/37db013a-7878-4c03-984b-b3d3014e35f9/transcript

Alex Kocman | Borders, Nations, and the Order of Love: A Christian Conversation about Immigration

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Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

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