In this episode, James and Nate host Tony Cardello. Previously featured on  "I Am Second," Tony shares his testimony. He describes his life prior to coming to Christ and the way Christ healed his marriage, family, and life. 

To connect with James, visit usefultogod.com or get his latest book Serpents and Doves: Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness on amazon.com. You can also take the Serpents and Doves online course here.

In this episode, James and Nate host Tony Cardello. Previously featured on  "I Am Second," Tony shares his testimony. He describes his life prior to coming to Christ and the way Christ healed his marriage, family, and life. 
To connect with James, visit<a href="http://www.usefultogod.com/"> usefultogod.com</a> or get his latest book Serpents and Doves: Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness on <a href="https://amzn.to/3S11cUL">amazon.com</a>. You can also take the Serpents and Doves online course <a href="https://usefultogod.pathwright.com/library/serpents-and-doves-223289/about/">here</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Find more from James at https://usefultogod.com/.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/</a>.

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.

Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing World

Christians shouldn’t just think. They should think Christian. Join Dr. James Spencer and guests for calm, thoughtful, theological discussions about a variety of topics Christians face every day. The Thinking Christian Podcast will help you grow spiritually and learn theology as you seek to be faithful in a world that is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny Christ.
Find more from James at <a href="https://usefultogod.com/">https://usefultogod.com/.</a>

A Redemption Story: Tony Cardello's Testimony

What do you do when faith feels dry, confusing, or emotionally barren—when God seems absent, or even uncomfortably near? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer talks with Dr. Noelle Forlini-Byrte, author of God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament and part-time lecturer at Samford University, about the wilderness as a spiritual landscape for real Christians living real lives.

Noelle shares how this book was “twenty years in the making,” beginning with her first spiritual formation class and early encounters with the mystics—especially St. John of the Cross and the theme of God’s “dark night” and felt absence. Those questions followed her into doctoral work in the Old Testament, where narratives like Jacob wrestling at the Jabbok, the exile, and Israel’s wilderness wanderings became a rich theological map for suffering, disorientation, and divine encounter.

James and Noelle explore why the church often defaults to two unhealthy extremes: shallow, pithy “application” divorced from biblical context—or scholarship so clinical that it leaves the soul malnourished. Noelle argues that liturgy and scholarship must belong together: rigorous exegesis should not be an escape from spiritual formation, and devotional practices should not ignore the actual meaning of the text. The goal is not information alone, but a scripture-shaped life where God excavates the soul.

Along the way, they discuss difficult Old Testament passages without smoothing out their discomfort—especially the wilderness as a place of testing (Deuteronomy 8) and purgation (Hosea 2). Noelle draws on the Christian mystical tradition to describe purgation as the stripping away of “self-made props,” the idolatries and illusions that quietly sustain us until wilderness exposes what we truly trust.

One of the most resonant themes is acedia—the “noonday demon” from the desert tradition: spiritual weariness, malaise, and the temptation to give up when faith becomes costly and daily life grinds us down. James connects acedia to midlife, family pressures, and the subtle exhaustion that comes not from one tragedy, but from “death by a thousand cuts.” Noelle suggests that the very presence of these questions can be a sign of a deeper, weathered faith—because wilderness presupposes we are actually walking with God.

The conversation closes with a challenge for the church today: humility, honest questions, and a willingness to let Scripture form us rather than simply confirm us. Faithful discipleship requires more than confidence—it requires wakefulness and the courage to bring our real lives before God.

You can get God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament at ivpress.com(use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount) 

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Topics include:


Why wilderness is a central biblical image for spiritual formation


God’s felt absence vs. God’s “hyper-presence”


The danger of devotionals without exegesis—and scholarship without soul


Hagar, exile, and uncomfortable honesty in biblical narratives


Deuteronomy 8 and forgetting God in prosperity


Hosea 2 and purgation: God stripping away false securities


Acedia and spiritual weariness in midlife and modern discipleship


Humility, honest prayer, and faith that can handle “why” questions

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

What do you do when faith feels dry, confusing, or emotionally barren&mdash;when God seems absent, or even uncomfortably near? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer talks with Dr. Noelle Forlini-Byrte, author of God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament and part-time lecturer at Samford University, about the wilderness as a spiritual landscape for real Christians living real lives.
Noelle shares how this book was &ldquo;twenty years in the making,&rdquo; beginning with her first spiritual formation class and early encounters with the mystics&mdash;especially St. John of the Cross and the theme of God&rsquo;s &ldquo;dark night&rdquo; and felt absence. Those questions followed her into doctoral work in the Old Testament, where narratives like Jacob wrestling at the Jabbok, the exile, and Israel&rsquo;s wilderness wanderings became a rich theological map for suffering, disorientation, and divine encounter.
James and Noelle explore why the church often defaults to two unhealthy extremes: shallow, pithy &ldquo;application&rdquo; divorced from biblical context&mdash;or scholarship so clinical that it leaves the soul malnourished. Noelle argues that liturgy and scholarship must belong together: rigorous exegesis should not be an escape from spiritual formation, and devotional practices should not ignore the actual meaning of the text. The goal is not information alone, but a scripture-shaped life where God excavates the soul.
Along the way, they discuss difficult Old Testament passages without smoothing out their discomfort&mdash;especially the wilderness as a place of testing (Deuteronomy 8) and purgation (Hosea 2). Noelle draws on the Christian mystical tradition to describe purgation as the stripping away of &ldquo;self-made props,&rdquo; the idolatries and illusions that quietly sustain us until wilderness exposes what we truly trust.
One of the most resonant themes is acedia&mdash;the &ldquo;noonday demon&rdquo; from the desert tradition: spiritual weariness, malaise, and the temptation to give up when faith becomes costly and daily life grinds us down. James connects acedia to midlife, family pressures, and the subtle exhaustion that comes not from one tragedy, but from &ldquo;death by a thousand cuts.&rdquo; Noelle suggests that the very presence of these questions can be a sign of a deeper, weathered faith&mdash;because wilderness presupposes we are actually walking with God.
The conversation closes with a challenge for the church today: humility, honest questions, and a willingness to let Scripture form us rather than simply confirm us. Faithful discipleship requires more than confidence&mdash;it requires wakefulness and the courage to bring our real lives before God.
You can get God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament at <a href="https://www.ivpress.com/god-in-the-desert">ivpress.com</a> (use code IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount)&nbsp;
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3484" data-end="4006">
<li data-start="3484" data-end="3554">
Why wilderness is a central biblical image for spiritual formation
</li>
<li data-start="3555" data-end="3604">
God&rsquo;s felt absence vs. God&rsquo;s &ldquo;hyper-presence&rdquo;
</li>
<li data-start="3605" data-end="3680">
The danger of devotionals without exegesis&mdash;and scholarship without soul
</li>
<li data-start="3681" data-end="3747">
Hagar, exile, and uncomfortable honesty in biblical narratives
</li>
<li data-start="3748" data-end="3798">
Deuteronomy 8 and forgetting God in prosperity
</li>
<li data-start="3799" data-end="3861">
Hosea 2 and purgation: God stripping away false securities
</li>
<li data-start="3862" data-end="3935">
Acedia and spiritual weariness in midlife and modern discipleship
</li>
<li data-start="3936" data-end="4006">
Humility, honest prayer, and faith that can handle &ldquo;why&rdquo; questions
</li>
</ul>
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

Acedia, Purgation, and Faith That Lasts: God in the Desert (Noelle Forlini-Byrte)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/a0ed0dd9-6f43-4838-a945-b3d20171e577/transcript

What if a major driver of today’s mental health crisis isn’t simply “more disorders,” but more people who feel unseen, unheard, and alone? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer talks with Dr. Jackie E. Perry—Clinical Supervisor, Professor of Counselor Education at Columbia International University, and President of the Soulwell Center—about loneliness, the loss of emotional connection, and why the church must recover the skill of attuned listening.

Jackie explains how the Soulwell Center began: while teaching counselor “helping skills,” she realized many of those relational tools could be taught in a lay-friendly way to parents, pastors, and everyday Christians. The result is a training approach that combines practical listening techniques with the neuroscience of relationships—equipping people to hold a safe space where others can feel truly “seen and known.”

James and Jackie discuss a trend Jackie has observed across decades in the mental health field: in the last 10–15 years, more clients have been coming not primarily with severe pathology, but because they don’t have anyone who listens. Therapy becomes a paid place of connection—something that should not be rare in Christian community.

The conversation explores how technology can create distance (including the rise of AI-mediated communication), why many people lack a “mental model” for deep listening, and how shame and perceived “threat” can make relational closeness feel unsafe. Jackie introduces the concept of “eyes of delight”—the nonverbal experience of being attended to with warmth—and explains why nonverbal presence often does more than words.

They also connect listening to the broader formation of disciples: without embodied, relational connection, people drift into isolation, cope through substitutes, and struggle to develop distress tolerance—the ability to endure discomfort and stay engaged through conflict, hardship, and the messiness of real relationships. The result is not only loneliness, but fragility and retreat from vocation, mission, and spiritual maturity.

In the end, Jackie offers a simple but demanding vision: the church must become a community that can listen across difference and reflect the “eyes of Christ.” That kind of faithful presence is not optional—it is essential for discipleship, mental health, and a credible Christian witness today.

Topics include:


Soulwell Center’s mission and the “listening course”


Loneliness, mental health, and why therapy becomes a substitute for community


“Eyes of delight” and the neuroscience of connection


Shame, vulnerability, and why being known can feel threatening


Nonverbal communication and why presence matters


Distress tolerance, overprotection, and the formation of resilient adults


What the church must recover to make faithful disciples

You can purchase Heart Cries of Every Teen here. 

For more information onf the Soulwell Center visit www.thesoulwellcenter.com.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

What if a major driver of today&rsquo;s mental health crisis isn&rsquo;t simply &ldquo;more disorders,&rdquo; but more people who feel unseen, unheard, and alone? In this episode of the Thinking Christian Podcast, Dr. James Spencer talks with Dr. Jackie E. Perry&mdash;Clinical Supervisor, Professor of Counselor Education at Columbia International University, and President of the Soulwell Center&mdash;about loneliness, the loss of emotional connection, and why the church must recover the skill of attuned listening.
Jackie explains how the Soulwell Center began: while teaching counselor &ldquo;helping skills,&rdquo; she realized many of those relational tools could be taught in a lay-friendly way to parents, pastors, and everyday Christians. The result is a training approach that combines practical listening techniques with the neuroscience of relationships&mdash;equipping people to hold a safe space where others can feel truly &ldquo;seen and known.&rdquo;
James and Jackie discuss a trend Jackie has observed across decades in the mental health field: in the last 10&ndash;15 years, more clients have been coming not primarily with severe pathology, but because they don&rsquo;t have anyone who listens. Therapy becomes a paid place of connection&mdash;something that should not be rare in Christian community.
The conversation explores how technology can create distance (including the rise of AI-mediated communication), why many people lack a &ldquo;mental model&rdquo; for deep listening, and how shame and perceived &ldquo;threat&rdquo; can make relational closeness feel unsafe. Jackie introduces the concept of &ldquo;eyes of delight&rdquo;&mdash;the nonverbal experience of being attended to with warmth&mdash;and explains why nonverbal presence often does more than words.
They also connect listening to the broader formation of disciples: without embodied, relational connection, people drift into isolation, cope through substitutes, and struggle to develop distress tolerance&mdash;the ability to endure discomfort and stay engaged through conflict, hardship, and the messiness of real relationships. The result is not only loneliness, but fragility and retreat from vocation, mission, and spiritual maturity.
In the end, Jackie offers a simple but demanding vision: the church must become a community that can listen across difference and reflect the &ldquo;eyes of Christ.&rdquo; That kind of faithful presence is not optional&mdash;it is essential for discipleship, mental health, and a credible Christian witness today.
Topics include:
<ul data-start="3192" data-end="3645">
<li data-start="3192" data-end="3248">
Soulwell Center&rsquo;s mission and the &ldquo;listening course&rdquo;
</li>
<li data-start="3249" data-end="3330">
Loneliness, mental health, and why therapy becomes a substitute for community
</li>
<li data-start="3331" data-end="3387">
&ldquo;Eyes of delight&rdquo; and the neuroscience of connection
</li>
<li data-start="3388" data-end="3454">
Shame, vulnerability, and why being known can feel threatening
</li>
<li data-start="3455" data-end="3507">
Nonverbal communication and why presence matters
</li>
<li data-start="3508" data-end="3585">
Distress tolerance, overprotection, and the formation of resilient adults
</li>
<li data-start="3586" data-end="3645">
What the church must recover to make faithful disciples
</li>
</ul>
You can purchase Heart Cries of Every Teen <a href="https://amzn.to/49SSbGt">here</a>.&nbsp;
For more information onf the Soulwell Center visit <a href="https://www.thesoulwellcenter.com">www.thesoulwellcenter.com</a>.
Subscribe to our <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God: <a href="https://www.usefultogod.com">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on <a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

The Listening Church: Loneliness, Mental Health, and the Skills Every Christian Needs (Dr. Jackie E. Perry)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/dadb5e09-57e3-4768-8a23-b3d20033c7e4/transcript

In this final episode of our German Reformation series, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Greg Quiggle step back from the 16th century to ask a pressing modern question: what does it actually mean to be Protestant today—and what have we gained (and lost) since the Reformation?

Greg frames Protestantism with a memorable realism: it isn’t perfect—it’s the “least problematic” of the major options(Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism). From there, the conversation explores Protestantism’s strengths—Scripture in the common language, broad engagement with the Bible, the dignity and responsibility of ordinary believers, and the freedom to test tradition against God’s Word—while also naming the hazards that come with that freedom.

James and Greg dig into one of the central tensions of modern Protestant life: authority without a pope must still include accountability. The Reformation wasn’t a call for every individual to interpret Scripture with equal authority; it assumed a teaching office and depended on catechesis to form faithful readers. But in today’s digital ecosystem—where influence is often determined by charisma, algorithms, and audience-size—Protestantism can drift into fragmentation, echo chambers, and “pastor-as-pope” dynamics inside independent churches.

This episode also turns practical and pastoral: how should Christians live faithfully amid online outrage cycles, misinformation, and slander—especially when “everyone is a publisher”? Greg and James connect these issues to biblical ethics (truth-telling, false witness) and to the urgent need to rebuild theological formation in the local church.

In this conversation, you’ll hear about:
Why Protestantism is a “best worst” option—and why that matters
The strengths of Protestant diversity (and why it’s also dangerous)
Why the teaching office matters—and what happens when it collapses
How the loss of catechism has weakened Protestant interpretation
The modern digital “echo chamber” problem and credibility collapse
Why truth, slander, and false witness apply directly to social media
Practical next steps: near-term wisdom + long-term formation

Quotelos Travel offers small, expert-led “Tours for Ten” that provide an intimate and unforgettable way to explore church history and culture with guides who truly know the locations. Learn more at quotelostravelservice.com, and check out their upcoming trips to Germany, England, and Switzerland.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel

🔗 Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:www.usefultogod.com

To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you never miss an insightful conversation!

This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management. “Whether we’re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk. Call us at 1-800-793-8548 | https://trinitycredit.org/ 

In this final episode of our&nbsp;German Reformation&nbsp;series,&nbsp;Dr. James Spencer&nbsp;and&nbsp;Dr. Greg Quiggle&nbsp;step back from the 16th century to ask a pressing modern question:&nbsp;what does it actually mean to be Protestant today&mdash;and what have we gained (and lost) since the Reformation?
Greg frames Protestantism with a memorable realism: it isn&rsquo;t perfect&mdash;it&rsquo;s the &ldquo;least problematic&rdquo; of the major options(Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism). From there, the conversation explores Protestantism&rsquo;s strengths&mdash;Scripture in the common language, broad engagement with the Bible, the dignity and responsibility of ordinary believers, and the freedom to test tradition against God&rsquo;s Word&mdash;while also naming the hazards that come with that freedom.
James and Greg dig into one of the central tensions of modern Protestant life:&nbsp;authority without a pope must still include accountability.&nbsp;The Reformation wasn&rsquo;t a call for every individual to interpret Scripture with equal authority; it assumed a&nbsp;teaching office&nbsp;and depended on&nbsp;catechesis&nbsp;to form faithful readers. But in today&rsquo;s digital ecosystem&mdash;where influence is often determined by charisma, algorithms, and audience-size&mdash;Protestantism can drift into fragmentation, echo chambers, and &ldquo;pastor-as-pope&rdquo; dynamics inside independent churches.
This episode also turns practical and pastoral: how should Christians live faithfully amid online outrage cycles, misinformation, and slander&mdash;especially when &ldquo;everyone is a publisher&rdquo;? Greg and James connect these issues to biblical ethics (truth-telling, false witness) and to the urgent need to rebuild theological formation in the local church.
In this conversation, you&rsquo;ll hear about:
<ul>
<li>Why Protestantism is a &ldquo;best worst&rdquo; option&mdash;and why that matters</li>
<li>The strengths of Protestant diversity (and why it&rsquo;s also dangerous)</li>
<li>Why the&nbsp;teaching office&nbsp;matters&mdash;and what happens when it collapses</li>
<li>How the loss of catechism has weakened Protestant interpretation</li>
<li>The modern digital &ldquo;echo chamber&rdquo; problem and credibility collapse</li>
<li>Why truth, slander, and false witness apply directly to social media</li>
<li>Practical next steps: near-term wisdom + long-term formation</li>
</ul>
Quotelos Travel offers small, expert-led &ldquo;Tours for Ten&rdquo; that provide an intimate and unforgettable way to explore church history and culture with guides who truly know the locations. Learn more at&nbsp;<a href="https://quotelostravelservice.com/">quotelostravelservice.com</a>, and check out their upcoming trips to Germany, England, and Switzerland.
Subscribe&nbsp;to our&nbsp;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Useful_toGod">YouTube channel</a>
🔗&nbsp;Download a free resource "Making Everyday Decisions So That God Gets the Glory" from Useful to God:<a href="https://www.usefultogod.com/">www.usefultogod.com</a>
To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.christianity.com/author/james-spencer/">Christianity.com</a>.
📢 Stay Connected &amp; Keep Growing!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to&nbsp;subscribe&nbsp;to&nbsp;Thinking Christian&nbsp;so you never miss an insightful conversation!
This episode is sponsored by Trinity Debt Management.&nbsp;&ldquo;Whether we&rsquo;re helping people pay off their unsecured debt or offering assistance to those behind in their mortgage payments, Trinity has the knowledge and resources to make a difference. Our intention is to help people become debt-free, and most importantly, remain debt-free for keeps!" If your debt has you down, we should talk.&nbsp;Call us at&nbsp;1-800-793-8548&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://trinitycredit.org/">https://trinitycredit.org/</a>&nbsp;

The Legacy of the Reformation: Freedom, Fragmentation, and Accountability

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/5e27a451-e6e6-4c51-aa03-a7370003783c/clips/d62b7068-3aec-45eb-9478-b3e801622432/transcript

A Redemption Story: Tony Cardello's Testimony

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