22 year old Mahsa Amini died in custody after being stopped by the morality police in Iran. And now, women are leading the uprising.
Negar Mortazavi, host of the Iran Podcast, explains why women and their allies are taking to the streets in Iran.
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You know, show that we're in this connected world. We really are connected, and um don't let them feel like they're they're being subjected to this brutal violence on their own in one corner, and that nobody else cares. There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. On September six, Massa Amini, a twenty two year old Kurdish woman, was killed in custody while visiting Tehran. She was stopped by what's known as the morality Police, or a roving group of people in Iran who police help people, mostly women, present themselves, policing everything from how head scarves are worn, their clothing, or even their makeup. Massa's death and custody sparked anger, protests and the largest uprising in Iran since two thousand nine, and it's being led by women. My name is Niggar Mortaza Vi. I am an Iranian American journalist and political commentator and hosts of the Iran Podcast, and I'm based in Washington, d C. Nagar has had an incredibly storied and accomplished career. She studied international development and worked at the u N. But in two thousand nine, after incumbent President Amadinajad declared victory in the two thousand nine presidential election, protests broke out in support of the opposition candidates Musavi and Karobi, sparking what's often called the Green Movement. The wave of protests was the largest since the Iranian Revolution in the late seventies, and it changed the entire course of Nagar's career and her life. So, yeah, it was one of those moments. Sometimes I hear about civil rights activists saying that the civil rights movements sort of changed the course of their lives. It was one of those things that changed their careers, family, everything personal and professional. And I think the Green movement was also a moment that, just like the nineteen seventy nine revolution before I was born, the two thousand nine greevement Green movement was also a turning point that changed the course of professional and personal lives of a lot of Iranians. A lot of journalists had to escape the country. There was a mass exodus of journalists and political activists after the government crackdown of protesters, and also some of us who worked abroad in the diaspora were forced into exhaust so at a professional level, also changed my life. I haven't been able to return travel back to my homeland since two thousand nine. I've been living in exile and professionally, it also sort of pulled me into this media world. So you've lived it around and you've had to deal with the morality police or the guidance police personally, what was that for you? Well? As a journalist and analyst, you know, you tend to look at things from a bird's eye view or try to report staying outside of the scene. But in this case, it's just inevitable because I was also an average citizen, a young woman living in Iran until I was about twenty twenty years ago. Now you have my age when I moved to the US, So I yes, I dealt with the morality because I was never arrested by the morality pople is. That was one of the lucky ones. But it doesn't matter if you're arrested or not. You live with this constant fear. So the morality police, actually the literal term for it is gashed air shot, which is the guidance patrol. So they're supposed to patrol. You don't know where they are exactly they patrol and any moment you can encounter them in the public spaces. So there's this constant fear. Sometimes even women walking down the street telling you should be like, oh, don't go to that cross roads. There's a there's a gash or this petrol standing their harassing moment. Essentially it's a form of public harassment over the years, and um, so it's yeah, it's it's humiliating for someone to be telling you how to dress, and in a very subjective way because it's not like a very clear code. Over the years, in different areas of the country, different local cultures, women dressed very differently, So it's very it's become very subjective based on what the specific agent at the moment deems, very humiliating, very intrusive, and also from just this fear that women constantly have. And it's not only on the way they dress, it's just it's way of the life that's being imposed with the most visible aspect of it is the mandatory hitgeob Yes, I've heard that it can be clothing, makeup. Um, these incredibly subjective things. And when I think about what's triggered the protests happening in around right now. Um, the young woman my I mean her death, or some might say her murder. Um, you know, really tapping into a kind of anger that I think we're releasing explode. Now, can you tell us a bit about what's been triggering these protests. So the initial spark for the protest was the death in custody, regardless of what the exact circumstance of the moment of God, because the state is disputing the family's narrative, the family saying she was a healthy two year old with no underlying conditions and that she was subjected to violence under arrest. The state is saying, no, she had this heart attack and we didn't commit any violence, regardless of the exact details. And I'm not a medical expert, but she died in custody. The death came in police custody with their responsibility for well being her life and for what. Now you have even some religious serrounding us, some hit Jabi women saying what exactly was wrong with the way she was dressed? Because I've seen video of her in the detention center. So now the old country knows what the whole world knows exactly how she was dressed when she was detained, and this long mon too as we call it, or just cover up. She's long scarf, you look like you're average, small tongue girl. And a lot of women seeing are seeing themselves on her. They're saying, this could have been me, this is how I dressed yesterday, so how I'm going to dress tomorrow. A lot of men are seeing their own sisters on her. I heard from this one protesters and another small town saying, my own sisters were visiting Tehran on that same day, and this is how they dress. So would they would they also be killed for the way they're dressing. So it's it's how she was dressed. It's it's this whole episode of the death and custody and essentially the morality police now is a lethal, violent force that is imposing this subjective dress good on women. That you even have some religious scholars speaking up. I guess there was a Grand Ayatola. There was a couple of religious scholars saying this is not even moral or Islamic. You're not supposed to use violence to impose a faith based value or virtue on people who don't believe in it, and some of these women are not even Muslims. There's a Christian community around, there's a Jewish community, they're visitors. Some of them are nonbelievers. You know, it's just forced on everyone. And now you have some scholars even challenging that from a religious viewpoint. You were talking about people being visitors, and that's something about this situation that really sticks with me for some reason. You know, she was just visiting Tehran, she was a guest there, and this is what happened to her. And it makes me think that a lot of the anger and emotion in the situation is because people can really see themselves and their loved ones in her story. Exactly. That's what we're hearing from a lot of protesters in Tehran, saying, I am so sorry you were visiting my city and this is how you are treated. This is how you end up a dead body in a hospital. And I also buy visitors, I mean visitors from outside the country, So tourists who are not even Muslim, they're not even on the end um, and they're forced to observe this mandatory head job. So some religious communities and some religious scholars are challenging, saying what is the logic in that. I mean nowhere in religious did I was saying? Nowhere and nowhere in the religion is specified that Muslim should use this kind of violence and forced to impose their own religious value on others. He called it irrational because he says, this is backfiring, This is achieving the exact opposite. You're driving young people away from her job, from religion. What you're trying to guide them to accept is turning into the opposite of a sudden He also called it illegal. He said, nowhere in Iranian law is specified despite the mandatory hed job, which is a discriminatory rule, but it's not specified that you're supposed to put this in the hands of the police to enforce it and treat these women. They're treating women essentially like criminals. They arrest them like criminals. They throw them in these police vans. So they're famous for having these vans that they fill up patrolling around the cities. They fill up and then they go to the station to drop them off for further quote quote guidance or training sessions. What are these training sessions? Can you tell me about those? I've never attended one, thankfully, but um so you go in there. Sometimes you have to sign a paper acknowledging your violation of the dress code and committing that you're not going to commit it again. This violation again basically goes on your record like a criminal. The training teaches you how you're supposed to dress or behave according to the dress code. There are quote unquote experts there who will be talking to you and further quote unquote guiding you. All of this is just something that is very intrusive, very humiliating, and now you even have communities of religious Hijabi women. I saw this campaign on Instagram. Hundreds of thousands of UM posts were added that said I am Hijabbi and I oppose the morality police. So essentially women who observe it themselves saying, don't do this in my name. Um. I've even heard stories of religious women being stopped by the morality police. So women who observed the job in the private of their home go outside with their own interpretation of how they're supposed to cover up, and the morality police it's not acceptable by them. So a religious woman who even believes in that when the morality police is not around in the private of their home then get stopped by them because subjectively it's not the way they want them to be. So the opposition is not just coming from the youth, is not just coming from the secular communities. It's also coming from religious communities. That's coming from multi generational women and men or women and allies and even some scholars. There was a sitting member of parliament who went on national television challenging this what are we doing? What is this kind of violence? There were a few debates on national television that were unprecedented, people going out there really criticizing both the mandatory job and the and the morality police. And then there's also very radical slogans on the street that go beyond just the mandatory police on her job iss she was targeting the entirety of the system, the political elite, the corruption, the repression, and it's just layers of grievances that have been piling up and this is on top of that. Let's say, quick break at our back. Obviously, this death and custody is what triggered these protests, but are we also seeing other kinds of frustrations, political frustrations, economic, social sort of being layered in Tell why people are so angry, definitely. So there's an economic element to this. A lot of the Irani economies and very bad shipped Iranian you don't see much prospect for themselves. There's a lot of corruption in the in the political class, a lot of mismanagement of the resources, mismanagement of the whole COVID pandemic. Add to that U S sanctions, economic and political isolation from the world that plays a very significant role in the economic situation. There's also political demands. The political space is very it's close, it's very repressive. Last year the president was elected in a very controversial election. His competition and moderate competitors were disqualified, so a lot of people see him as like a shoeing candidate in a whose path was clear to win in the election. So um, it's it's also political, it's cultural, social. There's a lot of pressure on artists, on filmmakers. Even before Master's death, filmmakers were arrested, they were pressured artists, and now we're seeing even athletes, some football players that are speaking up are getting pressured. So it's it's multi layered. For or and everyone is on the street with their own grievance, But also this collective sense of multiple layers that people have taken to the street before in previous protests. In two thousand nineteen, I wasn't mostly sparked on economic issue a hiking fuel prices. In two thousand nine, that sparked with a political issue, the contests of presidential election. But when it's met with a crack with a violent crackdown without the actual demand being addressed, so people may go back home, but then the next time they come out bringing all of those grievances and demands with them. What are some ways that the protests that we're seeing today, how are they different than some of the ones that we saw in well in two thousand nineteen, the spark was an economic issue. It was a sudden hike in fuel prices, So you saw a lot of working class Iranians whose life costs suddenly dramatically changed just because of this fuel price. UM take to the streets, and a lot of young men were centered in those protests. Also, from the number of UM deaths people who were killed in the protests and the arrest UM there was more leaning to that. The middle class also participated. It was in UM cities and UM towns, but the demographics was a little bit more leaning towards that issue. This time around, it's the sparks of women's rights issues, So you have a lot of women, young women really leading these protests or taking the um being on the front line. The symbolic images of them burning their scarf essentially or cutting their hair, which is a sign of grief, it's also a sign of defiance and resistance. UM So the visibility of women is very strong. You see a lot of middle class um Iranian joining in the protests. It's still difficult to be because there's internet disruption. There isn't easy access to the media to cover these protests, so it's hard to gauge and do a fair comparison to something that's happened in the past and we saw the images later, but this time around, I think one of the most visible differences, or just one of the most visible aspects who sees that a lot of young women are at the forefront of this and very understandably it's a woman's right to issue and it's the death of a young woman. As we know, protesting in Iran is is dangerous, it's deadly, and you know these young women are taking to the streets and by doing so, they're truly risking their lives by shoving up and the images and videos that we're seeing, you know, women shaving their heads, not just taking off their scarves, but burning them. I feel like there's such a clear, visual, visceral defiance and the way they're showing up to the streets. It certainly is Yes, and as you said, it's incredible bravery and courage that we're seeing from this young generation brusking their lives. Essentially, we've seen the number of death dozen't have been killed, the number of arrest there's a lot of women. Human rights activists are saying there's a lot of women among the death those who were killed, there's a high percentage of women among the arrests, among the journalists were arrested. A prominent female journalists, Nil Parhamadi, who went to the hospital and covered the story, was arrested along side others. Um So, yes, it's it's incredible courage and bravery and also very raw anger. Women have been fighting this mora articalies and mandatory h job for forty years. They have been pushing back individually and now there's this collective um pushback that we're seeing in the form of these protests. More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. When you think about the role that technology, the internet and other telecommunication services plays and protests, it's easy to see the ways that this is a clear tech issue. Earlier this year, the Iranian government announced a plan to use facial recognition technology on public transportation and and other public places to identify women who don't comply with very strict laws around dress and wearing headscarves. And as the protests raged, outages of internet and cellular services created a barrier for women to spread their message and connect with each other. Many took to social media platforms like TikTok and asked anyone with a platform to share their messages and amplify their voices because they couldn't reliably do so without consistent internet. And this is not the first time that internet disruptions were used at the tactic to silence protests in Iran? Why is that better tactic that the state has used during times of protests? So the state wants to minimize coverage or evidence of violence committed by security forces. When they deny it, they say it's the protesters were being violent, it's being fomented by our foreign enemies, and we have no problem with peaceful protests. So according to the Iranian law the constitution, peaceful protests without arms should be allowed in the country. But that's not the case. And there was even a conservative group, not among more of the conservative camp or the hardline camp, who requested permission for a protest against the mandatory realize and it was denied. UM. So the internet disruption and the limitations on media as far as coverage of the protests um One of them is to discourage or limit protesters from recruiting more protests or organizing more protests. The other is to limit protesters from communicating with each other, so when they're out in the protests, they won't be able to find each other and others, to prevent them from disseminating the information to the larger communities, so if you live in a city, you find that there's a protest, you can go join it. If you don't, then you can't. And also from prevents them from sending images, videos, photos, and essentially evidence UM out outside of the country to the global media, to human rights organizations. All of these are ways that go hand in hand with the suppression and the crackdown. We saw it in two thousand nineteen and near shutdown, a total blackout of internet access, social media access, and it took a while for us to understand what exactly was going on and to see it visually. UM weeks later when the citizen of eyewitnesses were able to send these images out. I I report on social media a lot, and it was really TikTok where I saw so many women in around saying, you know, our internet services have been disrupted, so please help us share this message, boost this message if you can repost this message. And I thought it was really interesting and quite savvy that that was the clear ask that these women had. They were bringing it to social media asking people to boost that message and really help amplify it because they couldn't rely on having reliable internet access or media coverage exactly. So I running protesters have actually been running citizens. The young generation have been very savvy in using Internet and social media because they have to rely on these alternative sources because there isn't much free and independent media and um access in the country. So a lot of times even for an outlet, rely on these citizen journalists on everyday um eye witnessed videos with mobile phones to document and to report on these issues and cover them. And uh, we saw it in two thousand nine. Back then Facebook was really big and to some extent Twitter, but mostly Facebook. In two thousand nineteen we also saw there's another messaging app that's very popular and around Telegram that was very big. And then this time around, I think TikTok also talks to the generation that's really protesting. It's a lot of younger Iranians. And another thing I noticed is a lot of influencers on the social media who are not necessarily Irannia, but they're being um contacted and asked or urged by the Iranian followers to speak up. And I saw some influencers who are not even political, like on cooking or lifestuff, that are speaking up and bringing light to this issue and showing solidarity. And it's it's all going back to the savviness of the population. It's also a very young population around seventy percent of the countries under the age of forty and UM so it's just very young and connected and savvy popular nation. Despite all the limits that the government is putting on Wow, that's really something to have such a young citizenry. I think it speaks to this idea of feeling like you have the right to control your future and the right to demand something better for how your life can be and how you'll be treated from your government. And even if the government erects all of these barriers, young women are still being savvy enough to go around those barriers to make their voices heard. It is, it is, and it's not just women, it's men also, But it's so much more severe for women. The discrimination and family law in occupation, even in universities, UM, in child custody in UM, the glass ceiling that is above their head in life, in their career and their personal life, and women have to just strive and and put so much more effort and more compared to their male counterparts UM to to be successful. So it's very frustrating, and uh, it's very understandable that there's just so many multiple layers of anger that we're seeing outpouring on the streets, not just by women, but also there are men and alas. Yeah, I mean something that you that you talked about earlier. It's this idea of treating women like criminals just for being I mean not even I was gonna say, just for being outside of their home, but not even that right. And so I do think there's something about how difficult that makes it to participate in public life as a woman or a girl. If you, if you, if you can be treated this way just for existing, just for showing up, it's an incredible barrier just for being able to just to to live a life. Indeed, yes, it is a lot of women are essentially saying, in many cases we feel like second class citizens. The discrimination is just so suffocating. Um. There's also a vibrant movement women have been pushing back, demanding their rights, and they've made a lot of successes. And it's not just in recent years. It's been a century, a hundred years of their striving, from the Constitutional Revolution, through the seventy nine Revolution, through the Reformed days, and until today that women have been pushing they've made some successes. Um. But there's also this pool and push there's a pushback from not just the state, but also the foundations of patriarchy. This is not all necessarily wo did in religion. There's also that foundation of patriarchy. You sometimes even see it amongst secular Iranians and the traditions, and then combined it with this religious layer in the Islamic Republic. Obviously it takes UM a lot of its uh foundations and religions. So it's it's something that women have been pushing back and globally. It's not just the women in Iran or in the Middle East, UM, but it's something that I'm just in awe of the bravery and the courage of these young women in Iran. I'm so glad that you're mentioning how all of this is global. I feel like we're seeing women led protests and movements all over the world, in the Middle East, in the United States, in the global South, And I wonder, how can we make sure that we're really being in solidarity with each other and learning from each other and supporting each other in what we know is this global movement led by fed up, angry women. How can we keep these conversations rooted in global solidarity. Well, yes, it's very important to not lose sight of the fact that this is a global and historical fight. It's happening in different shapes and forms across the world. In each community, different issues are in the spotlight. Of course, we don't want to minimize the kind of violence and the severity of some of these issues that around women are dealing with, or the fact that massa man he died because of the way she was dressed, because of the vials of the morality police. But in different on different levels and different shapes and forms, women are dealing with this issue across the world. Here in the U S it's reproductive rights that's taking center side these days, and across the Global South, the Global North, different issues for minorities, for the majority of women. UM in this intersectionality of all of these issues that we're talking so, I think it's important. And Irunian women are also receiving a lot of messages of solidarity and sisterhood from some of their neighbor and countries. I've seen Turkish women joining, I've seen messages from Arab women in solidarity and also from not the region, from from the global UM collection of women activists, artists, celebrities, actors, athletes. It's just been an outpouring of support and solidarity, and I think that's something that UM gives a lot of hope and encouragement to them. Absolutely, if for folks who are listening. What can people do to help support? Are their causes people should be looking to donate to. How can books get involved? Okay, well, I would say listen to a lot of the voices from inside Iron. It's a grassroots movement, it's an indigenous movement, and a lot of women inside the country are risking their lives as we spoke, UM pushing for this issue. Try to echo their voices, share information about these issues, show solidarity, use the hashtags or as I Roundian women are saying, say her name Massa Mini. That's been one of the slogans. One of the other slogans was woman Life Freedom. It's I think such a progressive and forward looking and and all income passing slogan, women Life Freedom. Zan zendegi azadi. Um just you know, repeat this chance, use the hashtags, share the stories, show solidarity. If you have Ronnie in friends, talk to them, see if they need support. Here the stories, um, just you know, show that we're in this connected world. We really are connected, and UM, don't let them feel like they're they're being subjective to this brutal violence on their own in one corner and that nobody else cares. You know, you're doing such an incredible job of curating these conversations about life and Iran and the cultural and political aspects of the of the country. Where can folks? Can you tell us about the podcast and how folks can listen to it? Sure? So, the irun Podcast started over two years ago as a pandemic podcast. It's a weekly interview style conversation on Iranian politics, society, culture. We talk about these issues, women's rights, human rights. UH and we try to go beyond just your average, UM five minute mainstream media segments which mostly is about the nuclear program and the nuclear issue, and try to bring in feature experts that know so much about their field. Also you don't necessarily see them as the your everyday commentator on mainstream media. UM and Yes, so the podcast is available on major platforms Apple, Spotify, Google, cast Box. I think around ten or twelve platforms. UM. It's also available on Anchor, dot fm, slash the Iran Podcast. That's the main link where they can go and seal the platforms that's available, or just search the Iran Podcast on their favorite podcast app. I'm also very active on Twitter at Nigo Mortazavi, where I share all of my interviews, a lot of the information and also podcast episodes so UM and just also great outlets that are covering the news in Persian and also in English. UM and some organizations and NGO as an activists that are trying to bring this issue and keep the reporting alive in the global stage. I am in complete all of the bravery of these women risking their lives to fight for change in Iran and Irani and women deserve to be heard. So let's keep sharing their stories and amplifying their voices because solidarity is global and their voices are powerful. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our mark store at tangodi dot com slash Store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer, I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. For more podcasts from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts