If you let this fear sort of like spin out of control and let them become these like larger than life figures in your mind, then you do feel disempowered to do anything about it. Like if these are these aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just some fucking guy, and some guy can be defeated.

If you let this fear sort of like spin out of control and let them become these like larger than life figures in your mind, then you do feel disempowered to do anything about it. Like if these are these aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just some fucking guy, and some guy can be defeated.

There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgid Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Molly. Thank you so much for being here, Welcome to the show.

There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgid Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Molly. Thank you so much for being here, Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Bridgid.

Thank you so much for having me, Bridgid.

It's been pretty tough to know just how to respond in this moment. I've been personally spending a ton of my time really trying to zero in on what it is I want to be doing and why and how I can use my specific skills to create the change I want to see in the world. It's the kind of thing that Molly Conger has built an entire career of. She's a researcher and journal who focuses on the far right, so she's been pretty busy lately. Mollie's hit new podcast is called Weird Little Guys. And on it she explores who she calls quote the worst people you've never heard of, and how the hate mongers standing in the way of progress and equality are well, in a lot of ways, just weird little guys. But before all this, Molly was working in an office job at an early childhood ed tech company, and then the Unite the Right rally that left thirty two year old Heather Higher dead happened in her town.

It's been pretty tough to know just how to respond in this moment. I've been personally spending a ton of my time really trying to zero in on what it is I want to be doing and why and how I can use my specific skills to create the change I want to see in the world. It's the kind of thing that Molly Conger has built an entire career of. She's a researcher and journal who focuses on the far right, so she's been pretty busy lately. Mollie's hit new podcast is called Weird Little Guys. And on it she explores who she calls quote the worst people you've never heard of, and how the hate mongers standing in the way of progress and equality are well, in a lot of ways, just weird little guys. But before all this, Molly was working in an office job at an early childhood ed tech company, and then the Unite the Right rally that left thirty two year old Heather Higher dead happened in her town.

I've lost my job unexpectedly in the summer of twenty seventeen. It was, you know, it's a huge bummer. I'd been working there for a long time. It was my first, like big girl job, and I guess maybe my last one because I have another job since. And so I was just adrift, right, I was just at home trying to figure out what to do next when Unite the Right happened here in Charlottesville. And I was not someone who was politically engaged at that time. It was not I didn't know anything about that world, and I was bewildered by what happened here, like why did Nazis come to where I live and kill a woman who was, you know, around my age. Right, This Streles' is not a big towns to college towns, but fifty thousand people. It just didn't seem like something that could happen here. And I didn't. I just didn't understand, and I had the time to waste trying to understand.

I've lost my job unexpectedly in the summer of twenty seventeen. It was, you know, it's a huge bummer. I'd been working there for a long time. It was my first, like big girl job, and I guess maybe my last one because I have another job since. And so I was just adrift, right, I was just at home trying to figure out what to do next when Unite the Right happened here in Charlottesville. And I was not someone who was politically engaged at that time. It was not I didn't know anything about that world, and I was bewildered by what happened here, like why did Nazis come to where I live and kill a woman who was, you know, around my age. Right, This Streles' is not a big towns to college towns, but fifty thousand people. It just didn't seem like something that could happen here. And I didn't. I just didn't understand, and I had the time to waste trying to understand.

And I never stopped when this was happening where you like, Oh, I am carving out a lane of work for myself.

And I never stopped when this was happening where you like, Oh, I am carving out a lane of work for myself.

No, And I didn't ever intend for it to become a career or you know, become a subject matter expert in anything. I just I guess I don't have asked anything. My whole asked it.

No, And I didn't ever intend for it to become a career or you know, become a subject matter expert in anything. I just I guess I don't have asked anything. My whole asked it.

I know your work has been instrumental and identifying extremists to sometimes have committed actual crimes in the name of their ideologies. How did this come to be something you realized that you had a knack for.

I know your work has been instrumental and identifying extremists to sometimes have committed actual crimes in the name of their ideologies. How did this come to be something you realized that you had a knack for.

I've talked about this, I think, you know, like I did a workshop last year in a local bookstore about, like, you know, internet safety and sort of reverse engineering how to keep yourself safe by talking about the ways that I make other people less safe online, you know, less safe being you know, a hater in secret. And I think I think all women have this ability. It is a laden ability that all women of our generation have right that, Like you've stayed up all night trying to find your ex's pictures on social media? Like what is what are they up to? Did they get married? You know, we all have that skill set, and I think in another universe, I'm just a fucking menace on nextdoor. But I found a way to channel that like aggressive nosiness into something that's good for society.

I've talked about this, I think, you know, like I did a workshop last year in a local bookstore about, like, you know, internet safety and sort of reverse engineering how to keep yourself safe by talking about the ways that I make other people less safe online, you know, less safe being you know, a hater in secret. And I think I think all women have this ability. It is a laden ability that all women of our generation have right that, Like you've stayed up all night trying to find your ex's pictures on social media? Like what is what are they up to? Did they get married? You know, we all have that skill set, and I think in another universe, I'm just a fucking menace on nextdoor. But I found a way to channel that like aggressive nosiness into something that's good for society.

I love that. I love that being your superpower. I have said that on the show. Nobody is like smarter than like a group of girls with Instagram. They will find anything anyone you cannot hide from them.

I love that. I love that being your superpower. I have said that on the show. Nobody is like smarter than like a group of girls with Instagram. They will find anything anyone you cannot hide from them.

Like a scorned woman is more powerful than the FBI.

Like a scorned woman is more powerful than the FBI.

Absolutely correct. By now, I'm sure you've seen that horrifying video, a woman later identified as doctor Teresa Bornpole is forcibly dragged out of a public town hall meeting and zip Tide for speaking up. There was a time where town hall meetings were just the boring process driven Greece that kept the wheels of local government turning, not necessarily the hot beds of discontent we know them ass today. But Molly was someone who identified that town hall meetings were going to play an important role early on in twenty seventeen, she started live tweeting government meetings in Charlottesville after the deadly Unite the Right rally. You know something else that I really have to lift up about your work is that I feel like you're one of the early people who recognized the power of things like public town halls, public meetings, especially happening in Charlottesville. Today, we know that like, those are big flash points where you know, you might get dragged out by hired goons for saying the wrong thing. But I feel like there was a time where you thought of public town halls or town meetings as the like boring things that they were, not the flashpoints that they are today. What was it about those spaces that made you feel like I need to start tracking what's happening in these spaces.

Absolutely correct. By now, I'm sure you've seen that horrifying video, a woman later identified as doctor Teresa Bornpole is forcibly dragged out of a public town hall meeting and zip Tide for speaking up. There was a time where town hall meetings were just the boring process driven Greece that kept the wheels of local government turning, not necessarily the hot beds of discontent we know them ass today. But Molly was someone who identified that town hall meetings were going to play an important role early on in twenty seventeen, she started live tweeting government meetings in Charlottesville after the deadly Unite the Right rally. You know something else that I really have to lift up about your work is that I feel like you're one of the early people who recognized the power of things like public town halls, public meetings, especially happening in Charlottesville. Today, we know that like, those are big flash points where you know, you might get dragged out by hired goons for saying the wrong thing. But I feel like there was a time where you thought of public town halls or town meetings as the like boring things that they were, not the flashpoints that they are today. What was it about those spaces that made you feel like I need to start tracking what's happening in these spaces.

They should be boring. First of all, they should be boring, but no, so that when my sort of early quest for personal understanding, one of the first places I went was I went to the first city council meeting that happened after Unite the Right. So it was, you know, the week after this happened here, I didn't know where to start looking for answers, So I went to city Hall and it was this very explosive meeting because there was a lot of anger here. There's a lot of hurt. And over time those meetings, you know, fewer and fewer people showed up over time. I think Charles Fillson more engaged locality than most and we have remade that way over the years. But you know, over the over the months, people stopped showing up. But I was interested. I was interested in the way these decisions are getting made. And I guess once I committed to that, I couldn't stop. But it wasn't something I started doing for anyone else, right, I live have been. I fell off in the last couple of months because I'm busy with the show. But I spent seven years live tweeting city council meetings. And it wasn't something I was doing for people, because like arguably, there should be no audience for that. It's not interesting. But I learned a lot about about local government, about the kinds of people who show up to make themselves heard. You know, there are I don't know, I think because it is boring because it is time consuming, because it is hard to do, you know, six o'clock on a weekday evening, you have other stuff to do, you're still at work, or you're making dinner for your family. The kinds of people who show up are often people who have not great motivations, and so we shouldn't seed that ground to that one weird lady who wants to ban all the books at the library.

They should be boring. First of all, they should be boring, but no, so that when my sort of early quest for personal understanding, one of the first places I went was I went to the first city council meeting that happened after Unite the Right. So it was, you know, the week after this happened here, I didn't know where to start looking for answers, So I went to city Hall and it was this very explosive meeting because there was a lot of anger here. There's a lot of hurt. And over time those meetings, you know, fewer and fewer people showed up over time. I think Charles Fillson more engaged locality than most and we have remade that way over the years. But you know, over the over the months, people stopped showing up. But I was interested. I was interested in the way these decisions are getting made. And I guess once I committed to that, I couldn't stop. But it wasn't something I started doing for anyone else, right, I live have been. I fell off in the last couple of months because I'm busy with the show. But I spent seven years live tweeting city council meetings. And it wasn't something I was doing for people, because like arguably, there should be no audience for that. It's not interesting. But I learned a lot about about local government, about the kinds of people who show up to make themselves heard. You know, there are I don't know, I think because it is boring because it is time consuming, because it is hard to do, you know, six o'clock on a weekday evening, you have other stuff to do, you're still at work, or you're making dinner for your family. The kinds of people who show up are often people who have not great motivations, and so we shouldn't seed that ground to that one weird lady who wants to ban all the books at the library.

Do you feel like that's a big part of how we got to where we are now? Sort of? You know, I understand the temptation of focusing on president national politics what's happening federally, But while we were doing that and sort of not paying attention to the boring city council meeting or whatever, the lady who wants to ban all the books in the library really amassed a lot of power and now has goons, right.

Do you feel like that's a big part of how we got to where we are now? Sort of? You know, I understand the temptation of focusing on president national politics what's happening federally, But while we were doing that and sort of not paying attention to the boring city council meeting or whatever, the lady who wants to ban all the books in the library really amassed a lot of power and now has goons, right.

Because that's been an explicit organizing strategy of like right wing interest groups for a long time, is running city council candidates, running school board candidates. They've been filling those rooms with their goons for a long time, and you know, it varies locality to locality. I don't want to say there are no people pushing back against that. There are a lot of good people pushing back against that. But I think on average, we have seeded that ground to people who you know, you know at the Federalist Society or whatever, who understand that they can build power locally.

Because that's been an explicit organizing strategy of like right wing interest groups for a long time, is running city council candidates, running school board candidates. They've been filling those rooms with their goons for a long time, and you know, it varies locality to locality. I don't want to say there are no people pushing back against that. There are a lot of good people pushing back against that. But I think on average, we have seeded that ground to people who you know, you know at the Federalist Society or whatever, who understand that they can build power locally.

I'm curious, are you from Charlottesville, Like originally I.

I'm curious, are you from Charlottesville, Like originally I.

Moved here in two thousand and seven to go to Uba, and so I never left.

Moved here in two thousand and seven to go to Uba, and so I never left.

Yeah, I'm from Virginia. I grew up in Richmond. And you mentioned how Charlottesville people there are like perhaps a little more engaged civically than your average place. I totally agree, And I think that Charlottesville. I love Charlottesville. I grew up going there, Like I had a lot of friends that went to UVA. Like that was like the good when I was in high school. That was like the good college that you hope that you got into.

Yeah, I'm from Virginia. I grew up in Richmond. And you mentioned how Charlottesville people there are like perhaps a little more engaged civically than your average place. I totally agree, And I think that Charlottesville. I love Charlottesville. I grew up going there, Like I had a lot of friends that went to UVA. Like that was like the good when I was in high school. That was like the good college that you hope that you got into.

Public.

Public.

Yeah. Yeah, in Virginia you might know this. They just call it the university. They don't even call it the University of Virginia. Like that's how ubiquitous it is. And I do think like in a place like Charlottesville, where folks are pretty like plugged in, it's like a unique place. Do you think that that that that strategy of quietly taking things over, does that work in a place like Charlottesville where folks are pretty plugged in.

Yeah. Yeah, in Virginia you might know this. They just call it the university. They don't even call it the University of Virginia. Like that's how ubiquitous it is. And I do think like in a place like Charlottesville, where folks are pretty like plugged in, it's like a unique place. Do you think that that that that strategy of quietly taking things over, does that work in a place like Charlottesville where folks are pretty plugged in.

It doesn't work here. It doesn't work here Antonin Scalia's granddaughter did not successfully run for school board here. She tried and it didn't work. So I think, yeah, you have to be in that space and know what's going on. Run your own people, because I think, especially now that I guess the law doesn't matter at all at the federal level, that our local government is going to be our last line of defense. That when you know these terrible directives come down from the federal government, or you know, in Virginia we have a terrible governor who's going to cooperate government, your local government is your last line of defense. Like, like, are the regional jail board here makes decisions about whether or not the jail cooperates with ice, right, Like these local decisions have a very real impact on people's state to day lives.

It doesn't work here. It doesn't work here Antonin Scalia's granddaughter did not successfully run for school board here. She tried and it didn't work. So I think, yeah, you have to be in that space and know what's going on. Run your own people, because I think, especially now that I guess the law doesn't matter at all at the federal level, that our local government is going to be our last line of defense. That when you know these terrible directives come down from the federal government, or you know, in Virginia we have a terrible governor who's going to cooperate government, your local government is your last line of defense. Like, like, are the regional jail board here makes decisions about whether or not the jail cooperates with ice, right, Like these local decisions have a very real impact on people's state to day lives.

Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I personally, Bridget am going through a little bit of a I guess you could call out a tails a despair tailspin. Everything going on reasonable, Yeah, And I think I constantly finding myself kind of oscillating between just being like I need to with my job and dedicate myself to the calls full time. I don't have kids, my parents are dead like this like this is it is time to like lock the fuck in and being like I need to check the fuck out, I need to like disengage. And it almost and I bet a lot of people may be your feeling that way, and it almost sounds like what you're saying is that the antidote to the feeling right now of feeling like I can't do anything, I can't change anything is being like it checked in, engaged and formed, like even at the hyper local level, because that's where you actually could build up the build up the qualities that like make that strategy of taking over of extremists taking over your local government less likely.

Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I personally, Bridget am going through a little bit of a I guess you could call out a tails a despair tailspin. Everything going on reasonable, Yeah, And I think I constantly finding myself kind of oscillating between just being like I need to with my job and dedicate myself to the calls full time. I don't have kids, my parents are dead like this like this is it is time to like lock the fuck in and being like I need to check the fuck out, I need to like disengage. And it almost and I bet a lot of people may be your feeling that way, and it almost sounds like what you're saying is that the antidote to the feeling right now of feeling like I can't do anything, I can't change anything is being like it checked in, engaged and formed, like even at the hyper local level, because that's where you actually could build up the build up the qualities that like make that strategy of taking over of extremists taking over your local government less likely.

Exactly, And it doesn't have to you know, this push and pull of like I can't do anything or I have to do everything is overwhelming. But you don't have to do something big. You don't have to do something big. Just join a community group and be part of something that could be big. But it doesn't have to be you, right, and you don't have to have you know, in character syndrome. But stopping fascism, yeah, I don't think it.

Exactly, And it doesn't have to you know, this push and pull of like I can't do anything or I have to do everything is overwhelming. But you don't have to do something big. You don't have to do something big. Just join a community group and be part of something that could be big. But it doesn't have to be you, right, and you don't have to have you know, in character syndrome. But stopping fascism, yeah, I don't think it.

I don't think me personally nobody's gonna cut it.

I don't think me personally nobody's gonna cut it.

But there's this this feeling like if I don't do something enormous, if I don't put my whole life into this, then I am not contributing. And that's not true. I think you go to a school board meeting, talk to your teachers' union.

But there's this this feeling like if I don't do something enormous, if I don't put my whole life into this, then I am not contributing. And that's not true. I think you go to a school board meeting, talk to your teachers' union.

I really like that, and I think, especially right now, it is I mean, I feel overwhelmed. I think everybody's feeling overwhelmed. The idea that like, you don't have to do it all. You certainly don't have to do it alone. If you, you know, thought somehow that you were gonna be the main character of stopping fascism, like disavow yourself with that notion. And it actually is like helpful to feel that way, to think of it that way, right that.

I really like that, and I think, especially right now, it is I mean, I feel overwhelmed. I think everybody's feeling overwhelmed. The idea that like, you don't have to do it all. You certainly don't have to do it alone. If you, you know, thought somehow that you were gonna be the main character of stopping fascism, like disavow yourself with that notion. And it actually is like helpful to feel that way, to think of it that way, right that.

Like I don't know, your own insignificance can be a comfort to you that you are just one person in this this larger operation of people coming together and doing a little bit at a time. That's more manageable.

Like I don't know, your own insignificance can be a comfort to you that you are just one person in this this larger operation of people coming together and doing a little bit at a time. That's more manageable.

You know.

You know.

I have to say, like my own show has sort of been off the air for a while, like in part because of personal reasons and family reasons, but also part of it is just like straight up not really knowing how to show up in this moment. Like I have sort of struggled with my own kind of north Star because I want to provide to my listeners, like content that is valuable, that is useful, that educates them, that helps them understand what's happening, and how to get plugged in. But I don't want to be alarmist. I don't want to be you know, doom and gloom all the time. But what the moment that we're in right now is genuinely alarming, right, And so like part of me is like, well, if I don't want to be alarmist, I guess I can't say anything because like, we're in an alarming moment. Is is this something that you have dealt with, struggled with and have you managed to find a balance there?

I have to say, like my own show has sort of been off the air for a while, like in part because of personal reasons and family reasons, but also part of it is just like straight up not really knowing how to show up in this moment. Like I have sort of struggled with my own kind of north Star because I want to provide to my listeners, like content that is valuable, that is useful, that educates them, that helps them understand what's happening, and how to get plugged in. But I don't want to be alarmist. I don't want to be you know, doom and gloom all the time. But what the moment that we're in right now is genuinely alarming, right, And so like part of me is like, well, if I don't want to be alarmist, I guess I can't say anything because like, we're in an alarming moment. Is is this something that you have dealt with, struggled with and have you managed to find a balance there?

Gosh, So the last couple of weeks, actually, I've been really grappling with that exact thought. Right. So when the show launched, in the first few months of episodes, I'm telling these stories about history, right, I'm looking at sort of a specific incident or individual from the past, you know, guys from the eighties, crimes from the seventies, like crimes that are sort of discreete package stories of like look at this, Look at this little fucking guy, look at this, Look at fucking weird Nazi who had child porn on his computer. Right, it's just these like little vignettes of creepy little Nazis. But the last couple of weeks the episodes have really focused on tying together, like here's this thing that happened in the past, and here is its direct correlation that is ruining your life now. And it's I feel like there's a responsibility that I have to tie these things together. You know, I'm not just talking about you know, the American white supremacist movement as this interesting anecdote of history. It is something that has led us to this moment. So tying like not just like this is an echo of this, This is a direct consequence of this particular man's actions and words. And here's the clear through line that got us to today. It's us, It's not Stow.

Gosh, So the last couple of weeks, actually, I've been really grappling with that exact thought. Right. So when the show launched, in the first few months of episodes, I'm telling these stories about history, right, I'm looking at sort of a specific incident or individual from the past, you know, guys from the eighties, crimes from the seventies, like crimes that are sort of discreete package stories of like look at this, Look at this little fucking guy, look at this, Look at fucking weird Nazi who had child porn on his computer. Right, it's just these like little vignettes of creepy little Nazis. But the last couple of weeks the episodes have really focused on tying together, like here's this thing that happened in the past, and here is its direct correlation that is ruining your life now. And it's I feel like there's a responsibility that I have to tie these things together. You know, I'm not just talking about you know, the American white supremacist movement as this interesting anecdote of history. It is something that has led us to this moment. So tying like not just like this is an echo of this, This is a direct consequence of this particular man's actions and words. And here's the clear through line that got us to today. It's us, It's not Stow.

I wanted to write, let's take a quick break.

I wanted to write, let's take a quick break.

At our back.

At our back.

On her podcast Weird Little Guys, Mollie isn't just rehashing old stories of extremists from the past. She's connecting how these stories led to our current moment. For instance, when Don Logan, Scottsdale, Arizona's former diversity director, opened an office of diversity back in nineteen ninety eight, it was bombed. Six years later, Don Logan almost died, but the office stayed open. But the story didn't in there because even after surviving a dangerous bombing decades earlier, just recently the city government voted to shut the diversity offices doors. Well, in one of your episodes, you're talking about the diversity office in Arizona that was like bomb in two thousand and four, and you know the person who opened it survived that bombing only for earlier this year, a few weeks ago, that office to close when you know they voted to, as the Phoenix New Times put it, for no apparent reason or justification doing so other than for the council to align itself with Donald Trump's baseless culture war crusade against diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Like that seems exactly like I read this piece and it broke my heart. The person who was like, yes, I had opened the package that had a pipe bomb in it, a little bit differently, I would be dead today and now this office is shuddering in some ways. It does kind of feel like when you are threading that needle of these stories, that like we're moving in the wrong direction. And I guess I wonder, like, how do you, as somebody who tells these stories for a living and threads that needle for a living, how do you deal with that, this feeling that like we are going in the wrong direction, like we simply are not moving forward.

On her podcast Weird Little Guys, Mollie isn't just rehashing old stories of extremists from the past. She's connecting how these stories led to our current moment. For instance, when Don Logan, Scottsdale, Arizona's former diversity director, opened an office of diversity back in nineteen ninety eight, it was bombed. Six years later, Don Logan almost died, but the office stayed open. But the story didn't in there because even after surviving a dangerous bombing decades earlier, just recently the city government voted to shut the diversity offices doors. Well, in one of your episodes, you're talking about the diversity office in Arizona that was like bomb in two thousand and four, and you know the person who opened it survived that bombing only for earlier this year, a few weeks ago, that office to close when you know they voted to, as the Phoenix New Times put it, for no apparent reason or justification doing so other than for the council to align itself with Donald Trump's baseless culture war crusade against diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Like that seems exactly like I read this piece and it broke my heart. The person who was like, yes, I had opened the package that had a pipe bomb in it, a little bit differently, I would be dead today and now this office is shuddering in some ways. It does kind of feel like when you are threading that needle of these stories, that like we're moving in the wrong direction. And I guess I wonder, like, how do you, as somebody who tells these stories for a living and threads that needle for a living, how do you deal with that, this feeling that like we are going in the wrong direction, like we simply are not moving forward.

Yeah, that story, in particular, I think really it instilled in me this idea that I have a responsibility to be clear that these stories aren't over right, Like I spent I spent two full months chronicling the life of Dennis Mahon, that klansman who built that bomb in two thousand and four, Like I followed him for decades. I dug through archives and court records and transcripts and old clanned newsletters and watched videos of sermons given at the Arian Nation's compound. And you know, I spent months writing this story, and I thought, Okay, it's over. He's in prison, his trial was very interesting, he was convicted, and that story is over. And then not a month after I finished writing it, the city council shut down the office that refused to shudder because of a bombing, right like he sent them a bomb. Don Logan almost died, and the city said, No, diversity is important to us. Diversity is important to us. Klansmen don't get to decide that it's not. And then twenty one years later, some Republican mayor with too much botox decided that no, actually, diversity sucks and we hate it, and so we are moving in the wrong direction.

Yeah, that story, in particular, I think really it instilled in me this idea that I have a responsibility to be clear that these stories aren't over right, Like I spent I spent two full months chronicling the life of Dennis Mahon, that klansman who built that bomb in two thousand and four, Like I followed him for decades. I dug through archives and court records and transcripts and old clanned newsletters and watched videos of sermons given at the Arian Nation's compound. And you know, I spent months writing this story, and I thought, Okay, it's over. He's in prison, his trial was very interesting, he was convicted, and that story is over. And then not a month after I finished writing it, the city council shut down the office that refused to shudder because of a bombing, right like he sent them a bomb. Don Logan almost died, and the city said, No, diversity is important to us. Diversity is important to us. Klansmen don't get to decide that it's not. And then twenty one years later, some Republican mayor with too much botox decided that no, actually, diversity sucks and we hate it, and so we are moving in the wrong direction.

And I don't know.

And I don't know.

I was speaking to an undergraduate class at EVA the other day about the show. A professor invited me to talk to the students about the show, and a lot of their questions for me were like, well, what do we do? What do we do? What does the future look like? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a political organizer, I'm not a prognosticator. I don't I'm just trying to tell a story and hopefully it can inform the organizing work of people who are good at that kind of thing. But all I have are these old clan newsletters.

I was speaking to an undergraduate class at EVA the other day about the show. A professor invited me to talk to the students about the show, and a lot of their questions for me were like, well, what do we do? What do we do? What does the future look like? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a political organizer, I'm not a prognosticator. I don't I'm just trying to tell a story and hopefully it can inform the organizing work of people who are good at that kind of thing. But all I have are these old clan newsletters.

Well this might sound wild, but like, stay with me here. So I love Tony Morrison, I love Angela Davis, and they were close friends. And Tony Morrison was working as an editor at Random House, right, and she was very clear that like her during the you know, black political movement of the sixties and seventies. She was like, oh, my role is like being an editor writing blah blah blah. And Angela Davis, who of course was like this amazing organizer, an activist and bet arrested and like, you know, was really in the streets and in the struggle. Tony Morrison said, you need to write an autobiography, a memoir. You need to write the story of your struggle in the streets so people can read it. And Angela Davis was like, no, I'm too young. I don't I'm too young for a memoir. Maybe I'll do it in ten years. And she said that Tony Morrison was the kind of person who had a way of telling people to do things where they understood they really ought to do it. And she wrote that memoir and you know it, it went on to inform an entire generation of political organizing and social movement and theory and practice. And Tony Morrison was very clear that she wasn't going to be in the streets, but her gifts. The thing that she was good at was editing and getting people, like identifying the person whose story needed to be told and making for that story got out into the world. And I really see that as like a similar thing, right of Like you know, you were saying, like I'm out an organizer. I can't tell people like how you push back, but you know where your gifts lie, right, Like you know what you're good at. You're good at pouring over research archival. I mean, part of me almost wonders if if the thing that we should all be thinking about is like, what is the skill that we're good at that they can't take away from us? And how can I lean into that in this moment? And yours is clearly like going over the meticulous you know, archives and telling a story, making a story.

Well this might sound wild, but like, stay with me here. So I love Tony Morrison, I love Angela Davis, and they were close friends. And Tony Morrison was working as an editor at Random House, right, and she was very clear that like her during the you know, black political movement of the sixties and seventies. She was like, oh, my role is like being an editor writing blah blah blah. And Angela Davis, who of course was like this amazing organizer, an activist and bet arrested and like, you know, was really in the streets and in the struggle. Tony Morrison said, you need to write an autobiography, a memoir. You need to write the story of your struggle in the streets so people can read it. And Angela Davis was like, no, I'm too young. I don't I'm too young for a memoir. Maybe I'll do it in ten years. And she said that Tony Morrison was the kind of person who had a way of telling people to do things where they understood they really ought to do it. And she wrote that memoir and you know it, it went on to inform an entire generation of political organizing and social movement and theory and practice. And Tony Morrison was very clear that she wasn't going to be in the streets, but her gifts. The thing that she was good at was editing and getting people, like identifying the person whose story needed to be told and making for that story got out into the world. And I really see that as like a similar thing, right of Like you know, you were saying, like I'm out an organizer. I can't tell people like how you push back, but you know where your gifts lie, right, Like you know what you're good at. You're good at pouring over research archival. I mean, part of me almost wonders if if the thing that we should all be thinking about is like, what is the skill that we're good at that they can't take away from us? And how can I lean into that in this moment? And yours is clearly like going over the meticulous you know, archives and telling a story, making a story.

Out of it, right, and like giving people sort of the language to assist them in understanding the moments such that they may take the action that they're good at. Right, Like, you know, people are like, oh, these you know, it's a fascist government, it's the you know, we're experiencing fascism, and then there's this pushback of well, you can't just that's such a big word. You can't say that, but if I can give you the information that you need to say. No, I know where this idea came from. I know whose mouth those words came out of last time they were spoken. You know that this isn't just normal Republican politics.

Out of it, right, and like giving people sort of the language to assist them in understanding the moments such that they may take the action that they're good at. Right, Like, you know, people are like, oh, these you know, it's a fascist government, it's the you know, we're experiencing fascism, and then there's this pushback of well, you can't just that's such a big word. You can't say that, but if I can give you the information that you need to say. No, I know where this idea came from. I know whose mouth those words came out of last time they were spoken. You know that this isn't just normal Republican politics.

This is.

This is.

This is something you come from an old clan newsletter.

This is something you come from an old clan newsletter.

How much of your work is like digging into old clan newsletters or like looking through speeches that are archives and things like that, things that like maybe read as boring, but help us understand this.

How much of your work is like digging into old clan newsletters or like looking through speeches that are archives and things like that, things that like maybe read as boring, but help us understand this.

It's not boring to me. It's not boring. It's like, I guess that's you know, we all have our special interest. This is the research is my favorite part. I love it. Like I spent most of last week trying to translate a blurry PDF of a thesis that was written in the nineties in Afrikaans, like and ocr does not like the AI does not want to read this to me, it is I'm like line by line because I know there's golden there and I'm gonna get it.

It's not boring to me. It's not boring. It's like, I guess that's you know, we all have our special interest. This is the research is my favorite part. I love it. Like I spent most of last week trying to translate a blurry PDF of a thesis that was written in the nineties in Afrikaans, like and ocr does not like the AI does not want to read this to me, it is I'm like line by line because I know there's golden there and I'm gonna get it.

You know something that I appreciate about Weird Little Guys is that is the part of the show that's like that you've never heard of, Like that part I think is very important. You know, there are so many of these names that folks might know, like Richard Spencer, who I always you know, I have. I had to give him a special shoutout because he was punched in my hometown of DC. And it's like a claim to fame that I love to mention. But you're talking about people that like extremists that people might not know right or might not have heard of. And you know, I live in d c. Into. Like you've talked about Aaron Hoffman, who was a police officer in nearby Prince George County, who you identified as a Proud Boys member, you know, who was advocating for violence against as a Supreme Court chief justice. And I guess I wonder, like, why do you think it's so important that people don't just know the sort of like big name extremists that get fancy write ups in the Times or whatever about their haircut, but also the people in your hometown, on your police force, on your school board.

You know something that I appreciate about Weird Little Guys is that is the part of the show that's like that you've never heard of, Like that part I think is very important. You know, there are so many of these names that folks might know, like Richard Spencer, who I always you know, I have. I had to give him a special shoutout because he was punched in my hometown of DC. And it's like a claim to fame that I love to mention. But you're talking about people that like extremists that people might not know right or might not have heard of. And you know, I live in d c. Into. Like you've talked about Aaron Hoffman, who was a police officer in nearby Prince George County, who you identified as a Proud Boys member, you know, who was advocating for violence against as a Supreme Court chief justice. And I guess I wonder, like, why do you think it's so important that people don't just know the sort of like big name extremists that get fancy write ups in the Times or whatever about their haircut, but also the people in your hometown, on your police force, on your school board.

Yeah, I guess the idea. You know, the name of the show is Sophie's actually Sophie's brainchild. Weird little guys, right, It's like it's not just the splashy big names that you've heard of. It's there's the whole networks of these. It's like you pick up a rock and there's all these roly pollies under there, right, there's never just one bug under that rock. And they're just these terrible little losers. Right, They're not these larger than life incomprehensible figures, these you know, great men of history quote unquote, right, it's it's just like a bunch of fucking losers who are mean to their wives.

Yeah, I guess the idea. You know, the name of the show is Sophie's actually Sophie's brainchild. Weird little guys, right, It's like it's not just the splashy big names that you've heard of. It's there's the whole networks of these. It's like you pick up a rock and there's all these roly pollies under there, right, there's never just one bug under that rock. And they're just these terrible little losers. Right, They're not these larger than life incomprehensible figures, these you know, great men of history quote unquote, right, it's it's just like a bunch of fucking losers who are mean to their wives.

Yeah. So I was once behind the bastards and I was talking to Robert about this and I forget, I forget who we were talking about. But he had a very whoever it was, had like a very messy interpersonal life and that was his undoing. And I was like, dang, imagine being like this like high up figure and extremist movement and you're undoing is like your interpersonal messiness with your girlfriend. And he was like, bitch, it's all of them like that.

Yeah. So I was once behind the bastards and I was talking to Robert about this and I forget, I forget who we were talking about. But he had a very whoever it was, had like a very messy interpersonal life and that was his undoing. And I was like, dang, imagine being like this like high up figure and extremist movement and you're undoing is like your interpersonal messiness with your girlfriend. And he was like, bitch, it's all of them like that.

It's like yes, Like there's there's a a white nationalist group that does not exist anymore because it fell apart after the leader caught his best friends slash father in law sleeping with his they were God, okay, so Matt heinbuch It's married to brook and Brooks stepfather Matt Parrott was having an affair with Oh god, oh the diagram is escaping me.

It's like yes, Like there's there's a a white nationalist group that does not exist anymore because it fell apart after the leader caught his best friends slash father in law sleeping with his they were God, okay, so Matt heinbuch It's married to brook and Brooks stepfather Matt Parrott was having an affair with Oh god, oh the diagram is escaping me.

You need like the like stringboard, like there is no Pepe Sylvia, like no, like we call it.

You need like the like stringboard, like there is no Pepe Sylvia, like no, like we call it.

We call the Night of the Wrong Wives, right, because this Nazi group collapsed because they were like they were fucking each other's wives.

We call the Night of the Wrong Wives, right, because this Nazi group collapsed because they were like they were fucking each other's wives.

Yeah, people with the moral high ground, for sure, these are the people that we want architecting.

Yeah, people with the moral high ground, for sure, these are the people that we want architecting.

Are like traditional values.

Are like traditional values.

Yes, I mean that is that a strategy here? Like really exposing the ways that these are just like small, weird losers and that they're not larger than life figures, and that like we are smarter than them. There are more of us than there are of and that like yeah, and like we need to remember that that like we can defeat them. They're not like big, smart, savvy people. Is that is that a strategy here? Yes?

Yes, I mean that is that a strategy here? Like really exposing the ways that these are just like small, weird losers and that they're not larger than life figures, and that like we are smarter than them. There are more of us than there are of and that like yeah, and like we need to remember that that like we can defeat them. They're not like big, smart, savvy people. Is that is that a strategy here? Yes?

So it's like you know, I'm not saying they're not scary or they're not dangerous. It's absolutely not the message here. But like if you let this fear sort of like spin out of control and let them become these like larger than life figures in your mind, then you do feel disempowered to do anything about it. Like if these are these aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just some fucking guy, and some guy can be defeated, right, this the idea of the monster is much more frightening than the weird guy.

So it's like you know, I'm not saying they're not scary or they're not dangerous. It's absolutely not the message here. But like if you let this fear sort of like spin out of control and let them become these like larger than life figures in your mind, then you do feel disempowered to do anything about it. Like if these are these aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just some fucking guy, and some guy can be defeated, right, this the idea of the monster is much more frightening than the weird guy.

Yeah, after watching I mean that horrifying video of a woman being dragged out of a meeting in Idaho, I when I saw the video was like this is I mean, it is terrifying, right, But then you hear you read about the sheriff who you know speaks to her initially, and everybody is like, oh, you want to know more about this guy. Here's his history of like weird, shitty, terrible behavior, And part of me is like wow, like he read like, first of all, if somebody with that kind of a background, I'm like, you probably should not have put yourself out here to be publicly scrutinized on a national stage. But also it's like, these are people with so many frailties and skeletons in their closet and like, I don't know somebody about that story. I found very empowering of like yeah, get them, Like I'm glad we're all talking about like whether or not he's pulling some kind of a disability scam right now? Like do you know what I'm saying? Like like who decided that the who put these assholes in charge? Like who decided that this person knows better about how to run anything than me?

Yeah, after watching I mean that horrifying video of a woman being dragged out of a meeting in Idaho, I when I saw the video was like this is I mean, it is terrifying, right, But then you hear you read about the sheriff who you know speaks to her initially, and everybody is like, oh, you want to know more about this guy. Here's his history of like weird, shitty, terrible behavior, And part of me is like wow, like he read like, first of all, if somebody with that kind of a background, I'm like, you probably should not have put yourself out here to be publicly scrutinized on a national stage. But also it's like, these are people with so many frailties and skeletons in their closet and like, I don't know somebody about that story. I found very empowering of like yeah, get them, Like I'm glad we're all talking about like whether or not he's pulling some kind of a disability scam right now? Like do you know what I'm saying? Like like who decided that the who put these assholes in charge? Like who decided that this person knows better about how to run anything than me?

Exactly? Like they they all have just something terribly humiliating in their background, right Like, oh, you may be the guy who wrote the book that inspired of you know, dozens of mass murderers to commit accid, unspeakable terror. But like I've read your bankruptcy filings and I know you got fired from Walmart, Like.

Exactly? Like they they all have just something terribly humiliating in their background, right Like, oh, you may be the guy who wrote the book that inspired of you know, dozens of mass murderers to commit accid, unspeakable terror. But like I've read your bankruptcy filings and I know you got fired from Walmart, Like.

Yes, yeah, weird little guy. I mean like that really that title really does say it all. These are weird little guys.

Yes, yeah, weird little guy. I mean like that really that title really does say it all. These are weird little guys.

They're small, They're small in you know, they're mentally small, Their minds are small, their hearts are small, and we can defeat them.

They're small, They're small in you know, they're mentally small, Their minds are small, their hearts are small, and we can defeat them.

You know, there's been a lot of talk about this really being a time where folks should be leaning in and staying checked in and showing up at town hall meetings or meetings in their local communities to demand accountability from elected officials. Do you have any advice for folks doing that, maybe for the first time meaningfully in their lives.

You know, there's been a lot of talk about this really being a time where folks should be leaning in and staying checked in and showing up at town hall meetings or meetings in their local communities to demand accountability from elected officials. Do you have any advice for folks doing that, maybe for the first time meaningfully in their lives.

Oh gosh, just go, just go to the meeting. And no, I don't know, Oh gosh, me think it's been so many years. There's this steep learning curve, Like you know, when I first intern showing up to these meetings, like they seem overwhelming, it's confusing, Like there's a very specific language of the wave bureaucracy is conducted. You know. It's so don't be afraid to just sit quietly for a meeting or two until you figure out the space that you're in. You know, read the agenda online. You can watch old meetings online if you want to. If there's local groups in your area that go to these meetings in an organized fashion, talk to them, ask them questions. I'm sure there's someone there who will talk to you about it. I know you're rights. I think there's a lot of intimidation that goes on, right like you, if you don't know that you are allowed to be there, you might be bullied out of that room. Like when I first started going to not just city council meetings, I started going to every public meeting I could find because I was very unemployed, and there's all these boards and commissions in my town. I would go to these meetings, and it was obvious in some of these rooms that no one had ever come before, that no member of the public had ever walked into that room and watched them have their meeting. Because they would say things like, oh, you can't be in here, and I would have to say, well, no, I'm familiar with the law, and yes I can. The law says you have to let me be in this room.

Oh gosh, just go, just go to the meeting. And no, I don't know, Oh gosh, me think it's been so many years. There's this steep learning curve, Like you know, when I first intern showing up to these meetings, like they seem overwhelming, it's confusing, Like there's a very specific language of the wave bureaucracy is conducted. You know. It's so don't be afraid to just sit quietly for a meeting or two until you figure out the space that you're in. You know, read the agenda online. You can watch old meetings online if you want to. If there's local groups in your area that go to these meetings in an organized fashion, talk to them, ask them questions. I'm sure there's someone there who will talk to you about it. I know you're rights. I think there's a lot of intimidation that goes on, right like you, if you don't know that you are allowed to be there, you might be bullied out of that room. Like when I first started going to not just city council meetings, I started going to every public meeting I could find because I was very unemployed, and there's all these boards and commissions in my town. I would go to these meetings, and it was obvious in some of these rooms that no one had ever come before, that no member of the public had ever walked into that room and watched them have their meeting. Because they would say things like, oh, you can't be in here, and I would have to say, well, no, I'm familiar with the law, and yes I can. The law says you have to let me be in this room.

To gaslight you into making you think that you were like trespassing essentially.

To gaslight you into making you think that you were like trespassing essentially.

Like that you're oh, you're not supposed to be in here, we're having a meeting. It's like, yeah, I know, that's why I'm here. I'm here to watch you have this meeting. And it changes their behavior, Like even if you say nothing, just the act of witnessing them have their government meeting changes their behavior. And so I think, even if you have no intention of making a public comment, go be in the room, make them look at you, make them know that their constituents are aware of what they're talking about.

Like that you're oh, you're not supposed to be in here, we're having a meeting. It's like, yeah, I know, that's why I'm here. I'm here to watch you have this meeting. And it changes their behavior, Like even if you say nothing, just the act of witnessing them have their government meeting changes their behavior. And so I think, even if you have no intention of making a public comment, go be in the room, make them look at you, make them know that their constituents are aware of what they're talking about.

Do you think that, especially now that it seems like, oh, I mean, when I think about what's happening federally. I just it's very hard to find anything hopeful to grab onto you.

Do you think that, especially now that it seems like, oh, I mean, when I think about what's happening federally. I just it's very hard to find anything hopeful to grab onto you.

Yeah, I'm not looking there for hope.

Yeah, I'm not looking there for hope.

Yeah, I mean maybe it's local. Maybe, like that's where like that's where you can actually like grab on to something.

Yeah, I mean maybe it's local. Maybe, like that's where like that's where you can actually like grab on to something.

Right, Like I have no like, you know, calling my congressman's not going to do anything. He was at January sixth, like he looks like a haunted Marionette doll and he loves fascism. Like I'm not called him, but I know, but I know that, you know, when it comes up for a vote at my school board. You know, a couple of years ago, they voted to take the cops out of our local schools, right, because having cops in schools is proven. There's academic studies proving that it like worsens outcomes, particularly for black students. It increases the level of violence in the schools. It does not make anyone safer. So they took the cops out. They did the right thing, and they took them out. But now they're talking about putting them back. Right, So like, I can't make my congressmen do anything about fascism at the federal level, but I can be in the room to make sure that, you know, black kids at my local middle school aren't terrorized by a school resource officer. That's something I can do.

Right, Like I have no like, you know, calling my congressman's not going to do anything. He was at January sixth, like he looks like a haunted Marionette doll and he loves fascism. Like I'm not called him, but I know, but I know that, you know, when it comes up for a vote at my school board. You know, a couple of years ago, they voted to take the cops out of our local schools, right, because having cops in schools is proven. There's academic studies proving that it like worsens outcomes, particularly for black students. It increases the level of violence in the schools. It does not make anyone safer. So they took the cops out. They did the right thing, and they took them out. But now they're talking about putting them back. Right, So like, I can't make my congressmen do anything about fascism at the federal level, but I can be in the room to make sure that, you know, black kids at my local middle school aren't terrorized by a school resource officer. That's something I can do.

I mean that that actually feels a little like that feels real to me, Like that, Like that feels like a like a change that like you could see you can feel in your commune, like in your town.

I mean that that actually feels a little like that feels real to me, Like that, Like that feels like a like a change that like you could see you can feel in your commune, like in your town.

And it's not meaningless, right, these small things they feel insignificant, you know, in the face of the horrors that are that are inundating us every day. But it's not meaningless to the people whose lives it touches, right that, Like you know, one fourteen year old black boy gets arrested by the school resource officer, that's the rest of his life ruined, right, Like that is a life changing act of violence for a child. And that's something that you can have an impact on.

And it's not meaningless, right, these small things they feel insignificant, you know, in the face of the horrors that are that are inundating us every day. But it's not meaningless to the people whose lives it touches, right that, Like you know, one fourteen year old black boy gets arrested by the school resource officer, that's the rest of his life ruined, right, Like that is a life changing act of violence for a child. And that's something that you can have an impact on.

More.

More.

After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

In all of this work, I mean, I have to ask, Like we talk about this on the show kind of a lot, like a lot of the sort of dangerous work of chronicling extremists, pushing back against extremists is being done by marginalized communities. Women. You know that I think that that's not a coincidence. And all. So women are like uniquely targeted for this work. Like it's usually not just us, it's like us in our family, us and our partner. How do you, how do you how how has that been for you? And how do you keep yourself sort of fafe and like okay to show up and do this work.

In all of this work, I mean, I have to ask, Like we talk about this on the show kind of a lot, like a lot of the sort of dangerous work of chronicling extremists, pushing back against extremists is being done by marginalized communities. Women. You know that I think that that's not a coincidence. And all. So women are like uniquely targeted for this work. Like it's usually not just us, it's like us in our family, us and our partner. How do you, how do you how how has that been for you? And how do you keep yourself sort of fafe and like okay to show up and do this work.

Dissociation number one Number one, just I don't I don't live in this body. I'm not a here. I mean, that's laughing, that's not funny. Although I will say I haven't gotten a death threat in months, and that's the first time in years that I can say that. Like it used to be like every week I was getting, you know, a message from some guy who's like, I'm gonna shoot you in the chest and then fuck the whole you know, like weird stuff.

Dissociation number one Number one, just I don't I don't live in this body. I'm not a here. I mean, that's laughing, that's not funny. Although I will say I haven't gotten a death threat in months, and that's the first time in years that I can say that. Like it used to be like every week I was getting, you know, a message from some guy who's like, I'm gonna shoot you in the chest and then fuck the whole you know, like weird stuff.

Lord, Like.

Lord, Like.

Okay, Dad, I think they're afraid of being on the show.

Okay, Dad, I think they're afraid of being on the show.

Oh my god, if they were a weird little guy, it's like today, I'm weird little guys. Listen to that voicemail that Chad left me and then it's played in its entirely entirely.

Oh my god, if they were a weird little guy, it's like today, I'm weird little guys. Listen to that voicemail that Chad left me and then it's played in its entirely entirely.

Yeah, I think they're afraid of being on the show. But no, I think this is something that especially you know, the female colleagues that I have. That is something we've been talking about for years, right, is that there are you know, white men with well paying staff jobs in newsrooms who do similar work and they don't really get the same threats I want say they don't get them. I mean, I'm you know, not stealing valor or you know, diminishing the threats that we all face in this work. But it is different for women. It is different for people of color, It is different for Jewish anti fascists, like it is it is different for people who are not white men. The level of a triol is much more appalling. The amount that people care when it happens to you is significantly less. And I think we know why both of those things are true. God, I will never forget this. Years ago, but a white man who makes a living writing about the far right told me that he was jealous about how many threats that I get because it just seems so interesting to him and if that's never happened to him in his work, that it was just he was a little bit jealous, Like why would you say that to me?

Yeah, I think they're afraid of being on the show. But no, I think this is something that especially you know, the female colleagues that I have. That is something we've been talking about for years, right, is that there are you know, white men with well paying staff jobs in newsrooms who do similar work and they don't really get the same threats I want say they don't get them. I mean, I'm you know, not stealing valor or you know, diminishing the threats that we all face in this work. But it is different for women. It is different for people of color, It is different for Jewish anti fascists, like it is it is different for people who are not white men. The level of a triol is much more appalling. The amount that people care when it happens to you is significantly less. And I think we know why both of those things are true. God, I will never forget this. Years ago, but a white man who makes a living writing about the far right told me that he was jealous about how many threats that I get because it just seems so interesting to him and if that's never happened to him in his work, that it was just he was a little bit jealous, Like why would you say that to me?

My god, I mean.

My god, I mean.

People are calling the hospital where my mom works to like say gross stuff and you you like that? Do you think that would be fun?

People are calling the hospital where my mom works to like say gross stuff and you you like that? Do you think that would be fun?

I mean this might sound like a silly question, like I think I know what you're gonna say, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. What like fills your cup? What brings you joy? What nourishes you to keep you checked in here?

I mean this might sound like a silly question, like I think I know what you're gonna say, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. What like fills your cup? What brings you joy? What nourishes you to keep you checked in here?

I mean the show is called Weird Little Guys because I genuinely love finding a weird guy, and so like Sophie came up with the name because like in the in the work chat, like I'm constantly coming, coming, you know, coming to everyone and being like, look look at this, Look at this fucked up thing I found. Look at this weird guy that I found. Right And like you know when your dog finds like a really nasty dead bug outside and he's like so excited to show it to you, Like that's me. I love it, like I made I made a little discovery last week that that's going in next week's episode, like over the Moon, just like out of control, excited. I found something crazy.

I mean the show is called Weird Little Guys because I genuinely love finding a weird guy, and so like Sophie came up with the name because like in the in the work chat, like I'm constantly coming, coming, you know, coming to everyone and being like, look look at this, Look at this fucked up thing I found. Look at this weird guy that I found. Right And like you know when your dog finds like a really nasty dead bug outside and he's like so excited to show it to you, Like that's me. I love it, like I made I made a little discovery last week that that's going in next week's episode, like over the Moon, just like out of control, excited. I found something crazy.

So I thought, what we're gonna say, you're dogs, But I was even more.

So I thought, what we're gonna say, you're dogs, But I was even more.

Yes, of course, my precious dogs.

Yes, of course, my precious dogs.

I will tell you one time I was walking down the shoe with my partner and there was a guy walking to Doccins and my partner looks over and says, look at those two double look at those double d's. And it was the funniest thing I've ever heard. And every time you post a picture of your dogs, I think about it, like it's like double d's, so double d's, Oh.

I will tell you one time I was walking down the shoe with my partner and there was a guy walking to Doccins and my partner looks over and says, look at those two double look at those double d's. And it was the funniest thing I've ever heard. And every time you post a picture of your dogs, I think about it, like it's like double d's, so double d's, Oh.

I mean looking at a Docson, I think is just an unparalleled experience. I mean I love to look at any dog. I love to look at a dog. I love to see a dog, love to pet a dog, love dogs. But something about a weeder dog is like, I mean, you think I'd be over it. They're like eight and a half years old now. But every time I look at them, it's like, why do you look like that?

I mean looking at a Docson, I think is just an unparalleled experience. I mean I love to look at any dog. I love to look at a dog. I love to see a dog, love to pet a dog, love dogs. But something about a weeder dog is like, I mean, you think I'd be over it. They're like eight and a half years old now. But every time I look at them, it's like, why do you look like that?

They always look like they're worried about something. It's like what should be worried about? Like Buck.

They always look like they're worried about something. It's like what should be worried about? Like Buck.

Buck looks like he works two jobs and can't make rent, Like he looks so pressured by the world. Otto does not He's never and it had never in his life, had a single thought in his head. It's so beautiful, like he's he's fine. All he prefaces by saying he's fine now, but he was completely paralyzed. In twenty twenty one, he had a spontaneous rupture of one of his discs in his back, which is unfortunately something that kind of happened to Dodson's, like he had no existing injury. It just happened, and all of a sudden he was completely paralyzed and he had to have back surgery and the prognosis was bad. And so after the surgery, he was home and his back legs didn't work and he was wearing a diaper. He was drugged up and like and so he couldn't This bladder didn't work. So I had to manually express his bladder by like squeezing on it. And the that was like, dogs, really don't like this. He's probably gonna bite you, And I was like, it's not. And for two weeks paralyzed, miserable, having to have his bladder manually expressed every three hours around the clock. He never he did not care. It didn't even seem to register with him that anything was wrong.

Buck looks like he works two jobs and can't make rent, Like he looks so pressured by the world. Otto does not He's never and it had never in his life, had a single thought in his head. It's so beautiful, like he's he's fine. All he prefaces by saying he's fine now, but he was completely paralyzed. In twenty twenty one, he had a spontaneous rupture of one of his discs in his back, which is unfortunately something that kind of happened to Dodson's, like he had no existing injury. It just happened, and all of a sudden he was completely paralyzed and he had to have back surgery and the prognosis was bad. And so after the surgery, he was home and his back legs didn't work and he was wearing a diaper. He was drugged up and like and so he couldn't This bladder didn't work. So I had to manually express his bladder by like squeezing on it. And the that was like, dogs, really don't like this. He's probably gonna bite you, And I was like, it's not. And for two weeks paralyzed, miserable, having to have his bladder manually expressed every three hours around the clock. He never he did not care. It didn't even seem to register with him that anything was wrong.

He was just vibing, not a thought in that doggy head.

He was just vibing, not a thought in that doggy head.

And I think we can all learn a lot from Otto. Don't think yeah by just.

And I think we can all learn a lot from Otto. Don't think yeah by just.

By I aspire to be like Auto. I mean, as I say, like, the the joy that you get out of researching and breaking down these weird little guys is palpable when you listen to the show, and I do, like, I mean, it sounds weird to say, but like you can tell that it is very much a labor of love when you listen to the podcast. And is that Is that how it's better for you?

By I aspire to be like Auto. I mean, as I say, like, the the joy that you get out of researching and breaking down these weird little guys is palpable when you listen to the show, and I do, like, I mean, it sounds weird to say, but like you can tell that it is very much a labor of love when you listen to the podcast. And is that Is that how it's better for you?

Yes, And I'm glad that that comes through because I you know, if it stops being a thrill to you know, to hunt and find and seek and dig, and if it stops being you know, emotionally crushing to tell the stories of harm that was done to people, then I'll stop. Then I'll stop if I can go, you know, if there's not an episode where Rory has to edit out the takes where like I'm audibly crying, then like it's time to go, because I think that matters.

Yes, And I'm glad that that comes through because I you know, if it stops being a thrill to you know, to hunt and find and seek and dig, and if it stops being you know, emotionally crushing to tell the stories of harm that was done to people, then I'll stop. Then I'll stop if I can go, you know, if there's not an episode where Rory has to edit out the takes where like I'm audibly crying, then like it's time to go, because I think that matters.

You know.

You know.

I started telling these kinds of stories for my own community, right like I had. Don't look it up. It's still on the internet somewhere. It's not good. But years ago. It was twenty eighteen when the man who murdered Heather Hier went on trial. I was able to attend the entire trial, and many people were not because it was the courtroom was so full of like, you know, fucking ghouls from out of town, like you know, CNN reporters doing their nightly hits. And so I during that trial, I made this like little podcast that my intention was it was just for my community, right, So I started telling these stories for my own community, and even though that's not what I'm doing anymore, right, I'm telling them for these broader audiences. I just got an email the other day from a listener in Scottsdale who said, you know, I heard the way that you talk about Charlottesville, and it's obviously very personal for you, but you talked about my city the same way, and that meant a lot, right, And so just being able to carry that sort of care with me that I'm telling these stories that affected real people's lives, that are continue to affect real people's lives. And if I can't do that with care, then I shouldn't do it.

I started telling these kinds of stories for my own community, right like I had. Don't look it up. It's still on the internet somewhere. It's not good. But years ago. It was twenty eighteen when the man who murdered Heather Hier went on trial. I was able to attend the entire trial, and many people were not because it was the courtroom was so full of like, you know, fucking ghouls from out of town, like you know, CNN reporters doing their nightly hits. And so I during that trial, I made this like little podcast that my intention was it was just for my community, right, So I started telling these stories for my own community, and even though that's not what I'm doing anymore, right, I'm telling them for these broader audiences. I just got an email the other day from a listener in Scottsdale who said, you know, I heard the way that you talk about Charlottesville, and it's obviously very personal for you, but you talked about my city the same way, and that meant a lot, right, And so just being able to carry that sort of care with me that I'm telling these stories that affected real people's lives, that are continue to affect real people's lives. And if I can't do that with care, then I shouldn't do it.

I am so glad that they haven't made us stop caring, Like I'm so good, Like they throw shit at us every day, but the fact that you still care and it still connects, and that you're still moved by these stories, I think really says a lot. And I'm just very glad that that passion and real empathy is still there, because like I wake up every day worried that like if today the day we're like I turn it off or I'm like I've stopped feeling, I'm numbed out, I don't give a fuck, like do what you're gonna do, like going down with the ship. I worry about that in myself, and it's just very clear that, like you have a vast reservoir of that inside, and I'm very glad for that.