After losing her job, Amanda Moore went undercover to investigate the white supremacists Making America "Great" Again.This episode was taped LIVE at Washington DC's Union Stage as part of Digital Void's Our Connected Future event.https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/amanda-moore-undercover-maga/Follow Amanda: https://twitter.com/noturtlesoup17Learn more about Digital Void: https://www.digitalvoid.media/
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There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Today's episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet was actually taped live from Digital Lloyd's Our Connected Future event a few weeks ago. So if you don't know Digital Void, they are a great multimedia project that studies the way that the Internet and technology shapes all of our brains as humans. And at their event, I was so excited to sit down with Amanda More. Amanda's story is fascinating. She worked in live events until COVID hit and then she lost her job, broke and struggling with how to get connected with financial services like unemployment, she did what anyone would do, created an alias and went undercover into the world of white supremacists and far right extremists for a year. Okay, so maybe not everybody would do that, just Amanda. Amanda fed stories to journalists help shine a light on the inner workings of the underbelly of white supremacists. She was at the Capitol during the insurrection on January six, and the night that we sat down together at Washington d c's union stage. The trucker convoy that started up in Canada was actively circling around d C trying to create chaos, which I feel like it's pretty fitting. Now. Amanda's story is a great reminder of how much dangerous, difficult work of making our democracy safer is being done by women. So let's listen. That's my theme song. Remember me. I am Bridget Todd. I am the host and creator of I Heart Radios. There Are No Girls on the Internet, a podcast where we explore Oh alright, I'll take that. Yeah, that's mattering of a pause. I have to say this is my first live podcast taping, so if I seem a little nervous, that is why. Um, you know, on the show, if you don't know what it's about, we explore all the different ways that marginalized folks, so women, people of color, transpolkes, queer folks, all the different ways that we show up or don't show up online. And you know, a reality of this work is that time and time again, so much of the work making Internet spaces safer, better, more inclusive is being done by women and other marginalized folks. And it is work that is dangerous. It is personally costly and we hardly ever recognize that work. And that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to be talking to my first ever live podcast guests, Amanda give it up for Amanda. This is also my first live podcast experience. So we are We're in this together. We got this. So Aman that you spent a year of your life being embedded with some of the worst sort of far right, extreme French folks, folks like UM. Give us a few of the names of the folks that you were kicking it with. So here's the worst part is that you won't know their names, but they're busy writing legislation. But they are like former members of Patriot Front and I Didner Europa and other hate groups that you would recognize. So how did this? How did you come to spend a year of your life doing this? Take us take us back? How did this start? UM? So, I've always had an interest in politics. I was raised Evangelical. My parents are both Trump voters, UM, and I was a libertarian until I was like twenty six, which is super embarrassing. UM, and a lot of people that I knew a libertarian movement ended up moving into UM. The extreme far right summer in jail. Some are you know, Proud Boys who should probably be in jail. H Some you know, like I was very I was not friends with Chris Kent well, the crying Nazi from Charlottesville, but we knew people in common, and um so I've always been able to kind of move within that word world. And my job was just completely belly up. I'm in live events, so it was it ceased to exist. During COVID, had a lot of free time, so I went to the top Steel rallies. I kind of just walked to them and you know, recorded whatever, and so that meant I was at the insurrection. So then I was at the insurrection. I was like, oh shit, this is this is real and we're really going to do this now. And um I kind of escalated from there without me attending for it too. Something that you write about so interestingly is, you know, we all know what happened here in d C on Januar ray six, but you actually talk about the way that the climate that was fostered at some of the earlier events and earlier rallies in d C, um you know, by people like the Proud Boys really did sort of lead to what we saw on the six. Can you talk a little bit about that, like, like, what were you seeing in the lead up to what happened on the six At some of these events, there's a moment that will live in my mind for the rest of my life. I was in front of the Supreme Court. It was December, the December stop the Steel rally, and this woman told me I was almost assaulted at the November rally. And I asked her what happened and she said she was walking back to the Trump Hotel and her phone had died, and uh, some guys ran past her and she she just took off running and that that was it. That was the whole story. That was the story of her near assault. And it was incredibly strange to me at the time. And she said, you know, she had to be like maybe fifty, and she said, I marched the Proud Boys last night until two in the morning. And you might recall the Proud Boys like stab people when they were doing that. So um it really it really just struck me that she was so afraid of everybody here and everything in the situation of just being in this liberal waste land where we're ninety for Joe Biden, you know, um that she thought that walking past her was almost assaulting her. And later that night, I was in front of Harry's after another stabbing, and um, we like I watched all the Proud Boys line up and they started marching and chanting, and Alex Jones was like giving us this pep talk, you know, seventeen seventy six, seventeen seventy six. And then the probably started like going off in groups of eight to ten, as though they were like going off to war, and so like Grandpa's or like telling them good luck, thank you, thank you, thank you for your service. And they're just walking around downtown do you see, like terrorizing whoever they see, And it's you know, it's it's so disgun from reality. But there was this it felt like a coordinated campaign to make everybody who flew here and came here from out of town, whether they were from a real like city or from you know, like the middle of nowhere, it didn't matter to just feel like everybody here was against them. And this this is Antifa. You're all Antifa. You know, if you're here physically present, you are like an Antifa super soldier. Um, and so just seeing that that coordinate effort was bizarre. Yeah, It's something I like about your work is that it really grounds it in this idea that d C is a city where people live, and that I think that for a lot of people, d C is an abstraction. They don't understand that people actually live here. And I have lived here most of my life, and you know, I still have friends from different cities who would swear that in d C burn of the ground and like cease us to exist. I'll be like, oh, how are you out there in d C? And I think that your work helps us see that this is a real city, if people live here, it's it's you know, And so I really appreciate that. Um. You know, when you think about how people report about extremist movements and extreme these extremist figures, what is something that folks leave out? What is something that you wish that people knew about how these groups actually operate. I think there's a lot of coverage of what the final result is without a lot of coverage of like that lead up in I first wrote about my experience of January six and the lead up to it and talking about people feeling like they were targeted just because they were like a Trump supporter with in d C. And not just targeted for people to really like you saw it go away, but like targeted for like actual like violence. Um, A lot of people reach out to me, were like, I had no idea it was like that in DC. You know, like a lot of people don't realize that Bowser told us to stay home. Our mayor told us to stay home and did not go out to that counter protest. And she told us that three times. And it's you know, in my opinions, possible that like January six could have possibly not happened if more people had left their houses in November December. And UM, I just think, you know, something is missing because I am like, I've also lived most of my life here and if I can see that failure, and a lot of these journalists who are writing about this, they lived here, and why can't they see it? You know, I don't know. I don't know if it's like an outlet issue whre they're not allowed to publish something like that. But um, there's there's a lot that goes on. UM. I think within the way that movements are organized, when people get pushed back they get really upset. Um. I mean, look at these truckers now, they're literally like crying because people are giving them the finger. And I'm someone that the truckers told to smile actually on the side of the road. So um, you know, I think like that component is missing, Like how how these extreme ast actions affect people before it becomes violent crimes, and like the situations which they live, um, and just how people people interact the other things Like I'm just like continue to go on and on. But like another thing that I've noticed is that for me, you know, I spent covid uh, you know, flying around the country like hanging out with some of the worst people. But you know, we were hanging out, we were at bars, and um, that camaraderie and that that sense of companionship that a lot of people were missing in one you know, we weren't missing. I mean I was deeply missing it because I hated everybody around me. But everyone else is having like a great time, you know. Um. So I think too, like that's been underreported, um a great deal, And I don't really know why because to me, it seems pretty obvious. You know, if you're going out every weekend and you're having a blast and COVID is unreal. Of course, you know you're gonna want to like adopt whatever you believe to the people that are around you. You want to fit in. Yeah, that's something that you write so compellingly about, is this idea of the camaraderie and the relationship building um in. You know, in my day job, a lot of it is thinking and writing about conspiracy theories how people get wrapped up in them, and a big part of it that we don't really talk about is the relationships that you know. I know I have friends from high school who are deep into Q and on, and a big thing about it is that, like they are in their day to day lives, maybe they're not being supported, maybe they're not being told that they're smart, that they're smart. Maybe they they don't feel very smart on a day to day basis, and now someone is telling them, not only are you smart, you're seeing something that no one else sees. You're smarter than everyone around you. And how seductive that is. And so, I don't know, I think that your work really helps us understand that so much of extremism and why people get wrapped up in it can really be about the relationships and the camaraderie. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Um, And then you know, I I was raised evangelical, and like a lot of being raised evangelical is being told, like you know something nobody else knows and you have to tell everyone so they understand. And you know, like people don't believe the raptor is going to happen, but when it happens, you know, you'll be up there in heaven and everybody who ever laughed at you will be down here. And I see a lot of that, especially within the Q and on community. Um, there were be times people talk to you and thank you and on I'd be like, oh am my eight years old again every back in church? Is that what this is? Because it feels like it. So yeah, I think, um, that sense of of we have figured something out that nobody else can, We've cracked the code, and you know for having a great time, I'll join it is is so important understanding why this happening. Yeah, I mean it's I think it's one of those things that's maybe difficult to acknowledge because it's a little bit complex. Um. You know you mentioned earlier when we first started talking that some of the names of the far right extremists that you were embedded with during this time in your life. Uh, we wouldn't know their names. And I guess one of my questions is, are there ways that you see these fringe movements and fringe leaders finding their way into more traditional mainstream right wing politics. They're already legislation and they work at foreign embassies, so I think they're there. M hm damn, Like, like, what can you really say to that. Let's take a quick break at our back. So, you know, when you were doing this work, when you were in bed with these people, did you ever have a time where someone said something to you and you almost slipped and you almost like what, like, what was it like to be embedded with these people? You know, you've got far right fringe people blowing up your phone, texting you for a date, stuff like that, Like what was that like? And did you ever have a moment where you almost slipt somebody said something to you that was so out of pocket that you almost were like, I'm gonna let this whole ruise fall by the wayside. Yeah, but it's like so stupid. It's um I dealt with so much for so long and I I I. My first undercover thing was in November, and then in August I flew to Portland, Oregon to go on a date with a former member of Patriot Front who again it's helping right legislation, and UM, he was like, there's gonna be a fight. Feel him and Tifa are going to fight the Proud Boys and you will have a picnic and we'll watch it. And I was like, um, is this like the Battle of bulve Run And he was like, that's the spirit. So I flew out and the whole thing was a bus because the Proud Boys minute up going into a Camar parking lot and then tear gassing themselves, so we couldn't have our picnic, but we did spend eight and a half hours in his minivan talking and UM. We were also like walking around in Portland and we were walking by, um some tents, and he started talking about homeless people and I was like, oh my god, this is like it's so humiliating and embarrassing, and I just people can hear you talk, and I wish that nobody could hear you talk. UM, and he was like, you know, the homeless, they could really be good for us because When I was at January six, I noticed all of the homeless people had American fly other tents and I was just like, you fucking idiot, we put those there? I like, I couldn't believe that this man actually thought people who don't have homes went out and bought Trump flags in American flags and put them up on their tents. And I I it took me like a minute to recover from it, because it's just like, how, how do you, like, what what about Trump's policies made you believe that, like people who don't have homes, Like that's a guy. And he was like, yeah, they'll fight because they believe in the cause. I'm like, I don't think that's true. And my response was so aggressive and because I'm like from here, you know, like I'm not like the docile like trad wife, like nobody nobody is falling for that trick um. And I was just like, no, that's so stupid, literally, demist I've ever heard, like, no, this is not we we put those tents. We put those flags there, and he's like are you sure, and like I lived there, like yes, I'm sure, um, and like that doesn't get broke me. But It's it's weird how you're able to like compartmentalize things for so long and then something so stupid. I mean that's like like I wouldn't be very clear, Like I like the same guy. The first night I met him, he asked me at a Turning Point USA event, which is supposed to be a mainstream conservative event, he asked me, what what would you, you know, do if you were rule of America? And I didn't want to radicalize anybody, so I always aired on the side of like kind of dumbing it down, like I don't know, I'm just a blondediot, so cool, Like what would you do? And he goes, I'm thinking like a friendly or Nazi Germany? So that did not break me. What broke me was this like idea that you really thought these people I bought these Trump flags and like decorated there, like the are just so stupid and so um you know. It's it's weird the things that like just dig into your brain when you're doing it, because you're you're able to like or I I mean obviously not everybody, but like I was able to just push so much aside, and then that just like so know that that's really the only time. Another time a guy told me conservatives won't have phones anymore. They're going to take away our phones, T Mobile, A T and t our Rise and it's coming. And I was like, do you want to tell me more? And you pointed at my phone, and so I, um, I recorded everything. I had the second iPhone, my old iPhone, and I had a wireless micup in my bra and the receiver was the iPhone. And you pointed it at my phone and said, your phone could be recording right now. And I was like, that's a little less you know, serious, But I did almost be myself. It was very oh my god, You're like, oh, well, that one was a freebie, so crazy my phone? Oh my god? Did you have moments like that? Like I can only imagine This work was legitimately very scary at times. Yeah, I mean it probably should have been more scary. I feel like I should have been more worried. You know. I was docks. I was docs in four Tan and I'm I was like doing like cuban On stuff and I was doing, um, like fascist stuff and so like you know, like like literal Nazis right, and the cuban On people figured me out um from four chan and when all around the telegram and I was like, okay, but like, I'm supposed to go to this event in Florida and we're having a hotel room party with three Hungarian fascists and six American Nazis. I could probably still go. My friends are like, no, you really, please don't go, Please don't go, and I'm like, but I think I can go. So you know, I did not have the uh wherewithal. I don't think to uh to judge because I was gonna go. I was gonna do it, um, so you know, I think, yeah, it's a good normal person would have been like, I'm flying to Portland's I'm going to go on this weird picnic day with his Nazi. I'm getting in his car now we're driving twenty miles away. I should be worried. And I was like, well, this is great. What are we doing? Where does this like, like, where does this come from? That attitude you just described if like not being a afraid, and probably maybe most people I would be afraid. Most people will be afraid, But where do you think that comes from? Any that you didn't have that fear? I mean, it's all I've ever known. You know, my dad, Um, my dad's pastor. He believes racist people from the dead. I went to a q and On event at my dad's pastor's church. Um, so it just, you know, it's like comfortable. It's it's not it's not it's scary or foreign or like a concept that nobody you know that I don't understand. To me, it just is. And that's why it was so easy for me, because I know the language and I know the culture. Um, you know, I broke my arm halfway through. It sucked. I had like tell my surgeon. I was like, She's like, we keep doing for surgery on Monday. And I was like, okay, so actually, um, are you familiar with the concept that Hillary Clinton is a pedophile and these children and only Donald Trump and stuff? And she was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, well, I have to go to a quan On events, so we can't do surgery. So I delayed surgery for like two weeks to go to this qun out event. People were praying and tongues on my arm and like most people, I feel like could not handle that. But to be I'm just like, yeah, it's just literally it's like being back in in fifth grade. This is normal, right, um? And so I think I think my upbringing really hoped make it not an issue for me. So I know when you were embedded, um with these these far right extremists, I was seeing reporting from I think Mother Jones based on your sourcing, and you know, I really want to underscore that it is so difficult for traditional journalists to really get a firsthand account of what's happening in a lot of these spaces. And you know, I think was it a Trump donor who was screaming white power? I saw a video? Was that that was your video? So I guess my question is when you were doing this project, did you find that people were news outlets were excited to work with you or was it were they more kind of you know, like, oh this, I don't know if we can publish this, like this is not what we want to publish. Like what was the what was the vibe like around outlets reporting the things that you were sourcing from being embedded with these communities. I heard um from a lot of editors this is extremely cool, um, also highly un ethical. So come back when you're done. People did not want to work with me. Individual journalists, we're okay with it. I mean, Zach knew, Um, I watched that get kicked out of an event with Gorka in Tyson's corner. Um. So you know, like I would message people who were at events that I was at and and you know, and obviously I grew up here, so I do have friends who were journalists. UM. But you know, by and large, everybody was like, this is very neat, but we literally cannot pay you to write about it unless you're going to write about your with your real name attached. It's like, well guess what. Um, the whole time was undercover. I um went by Frank on Twitter with a picture of a turtle, so people assumed I was a man, which was wonderful. Um. But yeah, you know, people didn't. They didn't want to mess with it, and I tried to rationalize. I was like, oh, yeah, it's unethical because like you can't wear a mask like the things I went to you. If you were a mask your journalist, you're out. Um. But you know that's not really what it was. It's just lying to a Nunzi is unethical, which is wild me more after a quick break, so if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast that I have great news for you. We just launched our brand new newsletter where I'm gonna be writing about things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe to our newsletter at Tandi dot com slash newsletter and it's gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you can also support the show by checking out our merch store at tangoti dot com slash store. Let's get right back into it. So I read one of your pieces where you talked about how in the beginning you would just show up to these events and you didn't, I mean like you were. You're a blonde woman, you know, you're not asking too many questions. A lot of people just assumed that you were one of them. And I think that's so interesting that I think that the way that you that your work relies on being white and also your gender, that I think a lot of these people are just like, oh, this like white blonde woman is hanging around certainly she's one of us. Certainly she like she can come to the next event with us. Certainly we shouldn't, you know, introduce HERR so and so and like move her along the ranks. And I think it's interesting how you basically just didn't challenge that. You let them run with whatever assumption that they were going to have, and that's what got you so deep into the middle and into the mix with these extremists. Yeah. Yeah. Some of my friends who are not white would always comment and I'm like, you know, you can do it too, but it's like a real commitment to the bit because it's gonna be like my granddaughter says, I'm racist, but you're here, so let's take a picture. You know. It's like it's a good thing I never had to do. Um. You know, I was never intending to like have a personality undercover. I I just went to see pack and I was like, well, it just records of stuff, and you know, I was like, like, whoever, like whatever lefty like podcast, they can't go And I had sold stuff to other podcasts, so I was like when I just recorded. And then this guy came up to me and he was like, hey, um, did you want to help recruit mac Gates to join our organization. And I'm like, what you know, And it's just no questions asked, just you're physically present, you look like you belong. So yeah, just come on, come on be with us. It's fine. I mean, this is You're almost inspiring me. This is like, like, just show up and just assume people are not going to ask questions that it might work out. You know. It's almost kind of like a like a a confidence thing. I think, you know, what do you think about scammers? Like you're an adelvis of the world and things like that. I think a big part of it is just sort of assuming that people are going to be like, oh, she looks like she belongs. It's fine. Yeah, I mean that's literally. So, like I said, I work in live events, um and there is a there's a place that hosts events in Columbia, Maryland. And I realized about eight years ago I could go to any event I went there if I parked an employee parking in war Khakis because I had done that for years, you know what I mean. So I just like you, just like I got it belong here, Like what's your question? I don't know. Yeah, it's like you know, when you go to an event and if you you look for the person with the clipboard, because that seems like they're in charge. They've got a clipboard. You know, you could just like bring a clipboard anywhere. They'll let you win. Um, pretty much. I guess one of the other questions I have for you is do you do you think that being a woman, like, do you think that you would have been able to do this in the same way had you been a man. Do you think that your identity really helped you? Yeah? Um, so obviously, Like when I got when a good docks, you could see like the tree of people like a fin as they realized. And it was like one guy realized, but he wanted to sleep with me, so he like didn't tell the guy who also wanted to sleep with me, but like he told his other friend, you know what I mean, So you could tell. I could tell over the course of like six weeks, like who like blocked me and like you know, when you know, out of their like out of their mind, like trying to like hide everything from me. Um. I think it gave me a very easy pass and it made people trust me more. And I also don't have to prove stuff the way I would have had to prove if I was a guy. You know, like, um, my personality was always the same. I was just like the racist, fascist version of myself, you know, like bizarro me. But I was like, it's too much to turn off my personality. So everyone I like kind of vibed with was you know, from Chicago or Detroit or Boston. You know, they weren't. I wasn't like hanging out people from Alabama or Kentucky because it's just not who I am, Like, you know, that wouldn't have not gonna again, not gonna be a chrad wife. Um, And they like it made them, you know, just kind of kind of let things go a little bit more. And I would always pretend to not know what stuff was. And like if I was a guy, that might not have made as much sense. But I was a woman, and we are naturally stupider, So yes, it was it was you know, like much easier to do that. And I I think too, if I had been a man, there would have been maybe a little bit more vetting of me. I literally used my real name, like I used a fake lass name, but not by much. And I told them like I was Amanda Lily, my name is a mine more um from Annapolis and I'm from Alexandria and I used to an Annapolis and there was like public record of Ie and nobody ever. They were like, oh, yeah, I know. I think she's she's great, everything great, you know, but I might have been drawn from Annapolis. They might have looked into me a little bit more, you know what I mean, and they just let it all go. They don't care. Wow, I love I love you using their own biases against them, like weaponizing their biases against them. Love it um. So one of my last questions for you is, I know that when you went undercover in these movements, you you know, were out of work. I also worked in life events before the pandemic, and so I was also out of work, and you were going through the same frustrating, funked up ass process that I was going through, which is trying to get unemployment, trying to figure out any kind of like services or support for myself after I lost my job. And you know, I read that you really that that that kind of radicalized you much farther left when you realize like, wow, the pandemic is hit and all of us are just kind of on our own and our government kind of abandoned us. And so I guess my question is, and I felt the exact same way. My question is, are there ways that you see a parallel with that in some of the people who were in these extremist movements, Because I would have to imagine that those people feel the same way that their government has abandoned them, that they don't have any real meaningful recourse in terms of civic engagement, and that is but obviously that has pushed them in the opposite direction. But I'm wondering, do you see a parallel there between your experience of being feeling abandoned in the pandemic and their experiences as well. You're the first person to ever ask me that. Oh, Um, Usually people ask me, um, what advice do you have? People going under cover and nice they don't do it? And a lot of it is that, Um, you know, if I was going to become a neo fascist racist, like that ship would have already sailed by now, given the way that I was like raised, right, um, And I if you look at the guy who's like running the trucker convoy right now, Brian brasse Um, he was he's a trucker, but he was doing stuff for music tours like zz Top. I think, so he was in the same boat as us. And a lot of what he attributes to what he's doing now is his son. His son passed away about six months ago. And also losing work, and like, I get it right, Like I lost my job because I'm mixed income, which means you're part W two and part to ninety nine. I got a hundred dollars a week for unemployment, which is DC is the lowest unemployment of a place in the country. So I really understand what Brian is going through. I did not decide to lead an insurrectionist group terrorizing residents of d C. You're welcome, um, And he did. And something that I think also scares me is that a lot of the moving on the right right now, especially with people under thirty five, is populism. And so I see exactly how someone could have been in my exact position and also be a white person who was raised in some type of Christianity and to be like, yeah, this is extremely appealing, you know, um, And I think, yeah, I think it's I think it's like an under underreported thing because people feel like, oh, if you've got an employment. On the right, people say, oh, if you've got an employment, you made more, you know, than you would have made working as like I did not. It's not true. I lost my home, like it's definitely not true. And on the left people are like, well, you know, like we helped you, and it's like, did you. I don't feel very helped um, but you know, I'm not. I'm not a racist asshole, and I don't think you need to be like that like mindset, but you have to kind of in a way to be open to it. And I can see how hearing stuff from the populist you know, definitely drags people that way. I want to be very clear. At the upper echelon is not like this. Other than Bryan. I think he's actually like an anomaly within this. I think most of the people who are leading things are you know, kind of set for life and if they want to have two point five kids and might pick a house and a wife that stays a home, they can have that. Um. But I do think a lot of the rank and FIO people are people who were in a position like may are you and you know, just different priorities, whether your priorities yourself or whether it's the greater good for people in general. That's really it's it's helpful. It sounds very scary, but also kind of hopeful in a kind of way, Like I guess, I guess it kind of gives me hope that people can be reached, some people can be I don't know, is that how you feel. I think that if I truly believe with all of my heart that this country we're like neo fascist racists, I wouldn't bother having this conversation. I'd already be in London, like by um, you know, I think I think a lot of people. It's something it's really hard to wrestle with, right because you have to be like I see why you went a little racist, and I see why you're a little anti Semitic, but like we're willing to still like work with you, like you should not work with the fascist or like a literal Nazi, but like the general population, and it's like it sucks. It sucks when you can't like I couldn't, I couldn't buy food, Like my clients were like from Australia were like sending me money because you're like, I cannot believe all America is like doing you guys right, Like, um, it sucks. It stuck to lose my home. It's hard to sleep on couches and to like stay with my mom. You know, Like I'm thirty three years old. I was awful, and I can see how, you know, if whatever, Like I see how you get there. And if we're willing to talk to those people and be like, actually, the people who are obstructing unemployment. You know, my dad like tried to tell me something about how great Republicans were, and I was like, actually, Dad, Bernie Sanders is why I am not like literally have not killed myself, you know, like he's why I'm getting this extra six d dollars a week, Like what are you talking about? You know? And if people if we can reach people and make them realize that, you know, I think there is hope to like pull people to the to the left. I think a lot of people just operate within their own self interest and and I think, you know, we look at them and say, oh, you're you're voting against your self interest, but in their minds, they're not. And if we can show them reality, um, and if you have. I just always feel like if you don't believe that, like, what's the point because it's half the country? Why a bother? Yeah? I think that you put that so so nicely. Um, you mentioned London earlier. I have to final questions. Where can folks follow you? And what's next for you? Do you have any any updates or news that you can share? Maybe a question mark so you can follow me on Twitter's where I'm most annoying. So Twitter, that's not true. You're one of my favorite Twitter follows. Thank you, um so Twitter, TikTok or Instagram at no turtle soup seventeen um. And then next for me is that I am hoping someone lets me write a book and if they do that, I'm going to London to write it because I can't write it here. I'll just drink too much and hang out with my friends too much. I'll never get done, so I gotta go far away. I know like eight people in London. That's way foreer people than I know here. I think it's a good, good, bad, beautiful Amanda Moore, Well, thank you so much for bringing so much of yourself to this conversation. If you want to tune into more conversations like this. Check out my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet on iHeart Radio. New episodes stop every Tuesday. I am Richard Tod. This has been amazing. Thank you for hanging with me for our first podcast, saving We did it. We did it together. There we Go. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I just want to say hi. You can be just a hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tang godi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget DoD. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.