On our final episode of this season, Bridget sits down with producer Mike to look back at where we've been and where we're going next.
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You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. What a ride it has ben y'all, And as we wrap up this season if there Are No Girls on the Internet, I wanted to take a look back of where we've been and where we're going. I started making this series about disinformation and conspiracy theories online right after the insurrection on January six. I live in d C, so that happened just a mile or so from my apartment, so it really felt like an attack on my home and I felt like I couldn't not respond. But from breaking down TikTok sex trafficking conspiracy theories to calling out Gwyneth Paltrow for pushing misinformation to women, I could never have imagined all the places this conversation would take us. I sat down with my producer Mike to try to put it all together. Well, hey, Bridget, thanks for joining me here for this wrap up episode of season two of their No Girls on the Internet Disinformed. How how are you feeling about the successful completion of season two. I'm feeling good. Uh. It's been a fun season. I feel like we've dove in Gove dived. I feel like we've gotten into so many different topics. Uh, it's almost kind of hard to wrap up because I feel like when we started the season, I had no idea where the topic was going to take us, and um, when we first started back in January to where we ended up in the end of the season, I could never never predicted where we would go. M But I guess that's the Internet for you. You don't know you know the story that you're telling until you tell it. Yeah, the Internet and disinformation, which is just people making up new stuff all the time. What has been your favorite topic that you covered in this season? So hard to choose. A couple of episodes that sort of spoke to the same theme. UM one with the former Pinterest employee of Foma Zoma who if you didn't listen, I haven't heard that episode. She essentially was an early hire on pinterest public policy team. Very early on she got the company to ban medical misinformation. This was before COVID, So for me, it was like a very classic you know, black women tried to tell you if all you would listen kind of moment. But finding out that she was docked and like harassed and abused by her own co workers, essentially doing her job. I think that if I had to sum up some of the episodes along a theme, that theme would be marginalized people, namely black women, fighting tooth and nail to make Internet spaces safer and better for everybody right now just for other black women or other marginalized people. Everybody benefits, but really fac seeing a material cost for doing that work and sort of having that work sort of be kind of costly for us or personally, you know, costly for us. Another example on that same line would be Sharine mitchell Um. We their an episode with her about early on about sort of why we should have been listening why disinformation is really a story about not listening to black women and the consequences for that. And so I think the theme for me really was like black women, queer folks, transpolkes, other marginalized folks, like we are the ones who are who they doing so much of the work of trying to make the Internet that is better for us but for everybody. But that work is costly, It is dangerous, it is exhausting, and it is you know, oftentimes like not rewarded, or if it is rewarded, it's sort of rewarded in this kind of shallow way where it's like, oh, listen to black women, trust black women that we're that's just sort of a platitude. Yeah, that's a great segue to my next question I wanted to ask, which is that in season one of Tango to You talked a lot about a racer as a concept, and I wanted to ask, you know, how did a racer show up in Disinformed? That's a great question. I mean, erasure is like one of the reasons why I wanted to to talk about disinformation in the first place. You know, I, in my other life have worked in the disinformation space professionally with the organization Ultra Violet, the gender justice organization that I worked for. But on January six, after the insurrection, it was like I woke up one day and everybody was talking about disinformation, and I felt like people like myself, who had really been talking about this since before, it was like a sexy issue. I think the insurrection really made it an issue that like everybody was talking about after the fact, right, and so it was like I truly feel like I went to bed one day and I worked on this issue that was like not very sexy and that people didn't really care about. And I woke up the next day and everybody was talking about it, And overnight a lot of like white men who worked at tech companies were all of a sudden just calling themselves different disinformation experts. And that erasure really stung, you know, as someone who has been working in this space for a long time, it the stung. Uh. It's stung to see panels organized about disinformation that didn't have any people of color or women on them, having that experience not at all match my lived experience of going to meetings with companies like Facebook or TikTok or Twitter, and where we are on the side of people trying to like hold them accountable or make the platform safer and better, and knowing how the people when I look around those meetings are always women, always people of color. Having having the reality not match my lived experience was a real feeling of a racer for me. So that was really something that drove the work in general. Yeah, I can imagine that that would sting and be frustrating, but it's not just an issue of injustice, Like those panels that don't feature black activists, women, people of color are missing the whole point of disinformation, right, Like, it's not just that they are excluding people who should be there, it's that they are not talking about the real issues that are at the heart of disinformation. Well, if you're not talking about race, identity, gender, if those things are not part of your perspective when you talk about disinformation, but also any experience on the Internet, you're not actually telling the full story. A great example is this documentary. You know, I love documentaries. A good example is this documentary I watched recently an HBO called Fake Famous, which I truly enjoyed, Like I really really enjoyed it. Um. It's all about this idea that on the Internet nothing is really as it seems, and that you could essentially buy your way into being an influencer if you had money to buy fake followers and things of that nature. One of the things that they dive into is this idea of what it comes to fake followers or bots, that fake social media accounts had a big impact on the election in they never mentioned the fact that a Senate inquiry confirmed that black folks were the biggest target, Right, So that is that is a not only is it a election integrity issue in a voting rights issue, it's also a racial justice issue. And if you are not equipped to to, you know, dissect these stories in the in ways that demonstrate how race and gender and identity are really at the center of them, and you're not telling the whole story. And I guess I just saw the identity aspect of the way that we talk about the Internet in general. I just saw that being erased time and time again, because frankly, a lot of these places don't have to range right. Like not to say that I'm doing it right, but if you are a team of all white people telling a story about the Internet, and you believe the Internet experience to be for white people, by white people, of course you're not going to be able to really speak to that to identity issues or you know, how things can be race issues or gender issues, if it's something that you're not poised yourself to grapple with. Yeah, and it's a shame because those issues are central. Anything, like you said, anything that doesn't include them and in effect center them is just a superficial treatment of the problem. Let's take a quick break looking back when we started production on Disinformed at the end of last year. It's almost funny to think that we were concerned people might stop caring about disinformation after the election, and of course I didn't happen. Instead, the January six insurrection happened, and Republicans are now passing voter suppression laws based on Trump's big lie and trying to convince us all that the insurrection was just a well behaved groups of civics enthusiasts touring the capital. What do you see as the emerging disinformation threats that maybe aren't on our collective radar yet? What a good question. I don't even know. First of all, I love how you put this um a group of civics enthusiasts. I think there's a lot of people very invested in not being the narrative. I think when it comes to disinformation, one thing I would say is there is a great risk of not seeing some of the laws that are being passed as deeply connected. You mentioned the voter suppression laws that we're seeing in places like Georgia, Florida, other states around the country that are rooted in a complete fabrication, a fabrication that says that our elections are not safe, and that then in the last election, there was like nefarious behavior going on. That's not true. It's it's just point blank not true. But the fact that now we have this kind of disinformation being codified into law that will make it harder for people, namely black folks and brown folks and first time voters to vote. That's also happening in other ways. It's happening with the spate of anti abortion legislation we're seeing all all over the country based purely in fictions about our health and our bodies. It's happening in really really harmful, dangerous laws about legislating trans identity, oftentimes focused on trans youth. A lot of these laws are based on complete fictions and fabrications about trans youth. And I don't see these as disparate. I see these as a coordinated series of attacks on our democracy being fueled by disinformation and lies and you know, falsehoods about marginalized people being spread and having a digital media ecosystem and landscape ready and employs to amplify them and help them fester and become more powerful. Yeah, I mean, it's it's all egregious. I think some of the worst is the disinformation about like trans kids right, like, why are children somehow a political punching bag for a lot of the same groups that you know are concerned that Amazon is selling children and you know, all these disinformation stories. It's pretty disgusting the way that they will create these fabrications about people and especially children. It's discus and let's I need to be clear, like this is going to kill people. People will die because of this kind of legislation. We know that trans youth are safer when they have access to gender or firmain healthcare. Everybody needs health care. To create laws based on fictions and lies and smears, smears that are fueled by someone's identity to further criminalize them, they're essentially a I believe, trying to legislate trans identity out of existence, so you know, eradicate trans identity starting with youth. And we're talking about youth who are often times so marginalized. So it's not it's it's cruel, but it's also people are going to die, people are going to be deeply, deeply harmed. And the worst part is is that it's all based in complete fictions, complete untruths that are allowed to fester and spread on social media. Oftentimes for profit, right, I think that like we're not fully I don't. I think it can be difficult to fully see that at the scope that it actually is. It's not a piecemeal it's not about a piecemeal anti trans bill and this state or voting might bill in this state. It is a coordinated network of larger attacks on our democracy fueled by disinformation. And I think that you know, Trump didn't start disinformation, but I think that we're living in a time right now where people see how powerful it is to weaponize and and what a powerful weapon it can be. And I think that we're really seeing we're only now seeing the results of that. I think it's I think we really are at a pivotal time where we're gonna have to decide if it gets better or worse. More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. You brought up a great point that there's a lot of money me being made on the spread of this disinformation, which came up a few times in the seat and disinformed as we talked about platforms, But there's a whole bunch of other ways that that we didn't touch on because of the focus on telling individual people's stories, but uh, that's another huge piece here. Yeah, when a Foma is oma was that Pinterest? She said that nine times out of ten, when someone was pushing medical disinformation or misinformation on the platform, it was because they were selling something, whether it was supplements or some bogus curative disinformation. People who push it can often be scammers looking to line in their pockets. I did an episode recently that was a little controversial calling out everybody's favorite. Uh well, miss Guru Gwyne Paltrow, I'm sorry, she's a scammer. You know, at what point do we call it what it is? If you make money, if you build an empire on telling people lies, lies about their health, lies about their bodies to make money, that's a scammer. We have a word for that. Just because someone is well dressed and they have a like you know ethereal vibe doesn't magnate less of a scam and we and I want to get to a point where the same way. But when we see someone selling fake gucci, you know, on in Times Square in Manhattan, that's a scammer. We need to see people who get rich off of disinformation and platforms and tech leaders who get rich off of it as the same kinds of scammers and worse because those scams kill people, they hurt people, they get people sit, and they criminalize people. Yeah, you mentioned platforms and the role that they have here, and you know, they're absolutely profiting off this disinformation, even if they're not the ones doing the scams themselves, they are enabling it, perpetuating it, and profiting from it. And I know in a lot of the work that you've done with Ultra Violet, you've been bringing this to the platforms. Uh, you know, especially Facebook and Twitter. Are those the big platforms that we need to be concerned about now? Where there are there others. So if you would have asked me this a few months ago, I would have said my big three were Facebook, Google which owns YouTube, and Twitter. But we need to be thinking about other platforms as well. We recently met with TikTok about disinformation on their platform. Um the episode that we did with blood Bath and Beyond and Abby Richards, who are two amazing TikTok ers who make amazing content really counterings on the disinformation that we see on those platforms, have really spoken to the way that TikTok has really gone under the radar, which is so horrible when you think about the fact that the average users age is fourteen, right, and so these are very young people who are really being targeted with a lot of harmful content. Never mind the sexist, racist, toxic content that's there that's like, yes, and but also harmful disinformation and disinformation about our bodies, about our identities, about sexuality. Imagine being four keen and having to wade through all of this, like it's a lot. And so I think that we really do need to be spending more time focusing on emerging platforms like TikTok. And something that blood Bath and Beyond brought up, which I thought was a really good point, is that we need to be having these conversations on the platforms where they start. And so if you see disinformation popping off on TikTok, you can't counter that on Twitter, you know. And so it's like, I, even though I am way older than the than the target user of TikTok, I am now on TikTok because I want to know what kinds of conversations, what kind of content is happening there, and what can we do to make sure that content is safe for this very young user base. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that it's been under the radar and it it needs to be a focus. They've got I just looked it up. Over a billion active monthly users. So not only are they is it young people, but it's a lot of them. So I'm thank you for doing that work. I mean, it's it's a little silly because I'm definitely I so. I love TikTok. I made my first TikTok two weeks ago. It is about my cats, Monika Um. I'm hoping to make her a TikTok star. There's a lot of good cat content on TikTok. It's a great platform and I completely understand why people go there and looking for community. You know, their algorithm is amazing and that like, you know, I'm a identify as a black beer woman. Within the first few scrolls of being on TikTok, their algorithm completely clocked me as a black queer woman and was serving servicing any content that we would put aligned with that identity. And so if they're algorithm is that good at knowing my identity understanding the kind of content I want to see? That should to show you how powerful it is, and so I want to make sure what these algorithms are being agents of good, agents of bringing people closer to communities that are healthy, not bringing them closer to communities that will endanger them or get them, you know, involved in toxic or extremist content. Yeah, so what can people do to curb disinformation in our everyday lives? Well, the number one thing that you can do is not to amplify it, not to share it, even if you're trying to debunk it. Oftentimes, when you retweet something that that is disinformation on disinformation, you're actually just helping it spread and helping it become more powerful by debugging it. Focus instead on sort of thinking of yourself as like an influencer of your own little pocket of the internet. So even if you don't have a lot of followers or you're not somebody who is like Kim Kardashian online, you still have influence over your little pocket of the web. So focus on becoming that trustworthy person that people know they can go to. They know they can go to your feed, your TikTok, your Twitter or whatever. They know that they can count on you for posting accurate, timely information and that means your community is going to be so nourished and so full off of the information that you share that is like good and accurate, they're not going to be as susceptible to fall for it when someone is posting bs. So focus on being like an influencer of your little pocket of the Internet. And then also if you see something that is suspect, google it right, Like I think on like like we see this a lot on TikTok with the trafficking content. I do believe that people are sharing misinformation not because they want to be bad actors who they're not looking to intentionally disinform. They're just you know, sharing something of their community because like they maybe and they think it will be helpful. Maybe you know, they don't know, like maybe it's true. I think it's like, don't fall into the trap of sharing something just because maybe it's true. Do a little research Google to try to find try to find a reliable source backing up what you say, and if you can't, don't share it. I would also say, you know, this came up from the episode we did with Nora from Pain America. Recognize that we all have a role to play in this. It's it's it's a little it like climate change. Right. I am one person. I am not a wealthy corporation. It is up to wealthy corporate wealthy in corporations wanted to change like fixed climate changes. They could, and they should. They're the ones with power, they should be the ones acting as leaders to do this. But in absence of that, I can still make individual choices that help, right, I can still you know, reduce my usage of single use plastics or whatever. Disinformation and misinformation is the same way. It is up to tech leadership and policymakers to step in and and and right this wrong, right, and and and make a big difference. In absence of their leadership, we can all make smarter choices of how we see it Internet. We could all be good stewards of the Internet. We can all think twice before we retweet something, or you know, pause and take a breath before we share something. I think that that, like, that realization was really helpful for me. Yeah, that makes sense. So that really aligns with what you've been doing over the past six months, year longer than that of both those things of helping educate people and raise awareness about disinformation and what we can all do, as well as your work with platforms and policy policymakers through Ultra Violet. Um, and you know you've you've had some help along the way and spreading that message. A lot of your friends and colleagues invited you onto their shows to talk about disinformation. What was that experience like for you? Oh? My god? So fun. The voice that you hear on the podcast is largely my own, and podcasting the reason why it's fun, the reason why I got into it because it's collaborative and so being able to collaborate with my community of podcast nerds has been amazing. I have got the chance to go on so many amazing podcasts. Um, I can shout some out right now, Uh stuff, Mom'm ever told you. I'm on every month talking about underrepresented voictions on the Internet. Shout out to Sam and Annie they are amazing. Um. I was on one of my favorite podcasts, Robert Evans is behind the Bastard. Shout out to Robert and Sophie. They are amazing. They do work chronicling sort of bastards throughout history. You know, so people like I don't know, Mark Zuckerberg, people who have you know, further bad things in the world. Um, I am a frequent guest on one of my favorite podcasts, Daily Zite Guys Shout out to the Zeit Gang. Amazing, amazing, definitely check it out. And then podcasts where they're doing interesting work thinking about the Internet in interesting ways, like Joe Piazzas podcast is phenomenal Under the Influence. She is chronicling the influencer community peicularly like Mom influencers and like Mom Instagram users, because people don't really cover or chronicle Instagram or influencers because I think there's so many women in that field, and so it's just not seen as worthy of actual consideration or actual um journalistic scrutiny. However, it's also a billion dollar industry and so if no one is covering this with the seriousness that it deserves the serious that other billion dollar industries get, you know, things go under their radar, people are exploited, things get you know, people need to know about what's going on. And so I was lucky enough to be on her podcast. I cannot recommend it enough. She is amazing. Another good one is the Daily Dapts podcast Two Girls, One Pad of really doing some interesting work again just talking about the Internet. In different ways. The experience of being on the Internet is so multifaceted, there's so many interesting angles to it. We rarely cover it with the depth that it deserves because it can be so difficult to spotlight marginalized experiences there. And it's like there's like a default assumption that the average user on the Internet is a white male, and that leaves out so many pockets, so many facets to what people's actual experiences online are actually like. And so I'm so happy that I am in a community of people really working hard to tell these stories with the you know, love and nuance and thoughtfulness that they really do deserve. Another great one um tech stuff. I'm not just saying that because Jonathan Strickland is the executive producer of this show. He also tells phenomenally interesting stories about the Internet and the experience of being on the Internet, from gadgets to trends to sort of more cless opical questions. I think there's so many interesting people having those interesting conversations about what it means to be a person on the Internet today. Yeah, and Jonathan has been so supportive throughout making this podcast, both in terms of the content and also like the behind the scenes, nuts and bolt stuff of making a podcast successful. Absolutely yeah. Um. Speaking of being successful, earlier this month, we found out that Tang Goody Want a Shorty Award, beating out other podcasts in our category produced by powerhouses like HBO and the NFL. How did you do it? What is your secret? My secret is an amazing producer and engineer, Tarry Harrison. Surely in this podcast would be would be non existent without her visions, Like if you've ever listen to something on the show about like, well that sounds cool, we're like, oh, that was a beautiful, beautifully soundscape part of the show that was sorry, And so really, she's a secret sauce of why it works. It's it's her, and it's the stories of all the interesting people who are doing such cool work online. So I feel like I have very little to do with it. Between the two of Between that those two things, it's almost impossible to not make an award winning podcast because they're so great. Yeah, Tart is amazing, your guests are amazing. I think you also had a little bit to do with it. Okay, I'll allow that I had a little something to do with it. So what can listeners look forward to in the next season of Tank GODI and when can they look forward to hearing it? So we will be back in your earbuds very soon, and we're gonna keep having these conversations about what it looks like online for people who wanted to represent it. Some of the episodes that we did this season that We're near and Near to my Heart were stories of women who were finding themselves at the said tour of not so pleasant experiences online and so things like online harassment campaigns, pylon campaigns. I'm really interested in how these women deal with it and will come out the other side of it. So that's something to look forward to in a fun little mini series. Really kind of the opposite about women who are just doing cool stuff online, like interesting women that you might not know about, who are making the Internet a better place. So a little bit of like light and dark, and I think it really is representative of the fact that being a woman or a person of color, or a queer person or a transperson online you deal with so much crap. There is ugliness there, but there is life there too, Like it is what brings me back to the Internet, is what brought me to the Internet in the first place, and I'm really interested in telling the full scope of that story. It's like Claire said in the very first episode, you know, don't fight the darkness, bring the light. So what are you gonna be doing while the show is on hiatus, You're just gonna be kicking to the beach. I wish a little bit of beach time. I definitely want to take some time for like actual meaningful rest. You know, I've been doing this show since January here it is almost June. It is been It's been fun. I'm great, but I'm looking forward to taking some time off. I'm going to continue holding platforms accountable. I met with Twitter just today to advocate for some policy changes. The meeting with TikTok. We continue to meet with Facebook, so that work will not stop. That is not work that you hear about on the podcast very often, because frankly, it's not really that interesting to listen to sometimes. But that will continue, and you know, I'm excited to sort of get back out there. You know, I have this little saying I am now vaxed, wax and relax. Actually it's not my saying. I saw it on TikTok, but It is the motto for this this part of my life right now, and I'm looking forward to traveling some safely. I'm looking forward to continuing to these conversations, and honestly, I want to keep talking about how we make the Internet a safer, better place and amplifying the voices of some of the women and folks of color who are doing that. And so if folks are interested in live events, I am interested in them too. If folks want to bring me out to speak for their organization or for an event they're having, I am very interested. As I said, I am vaxed, waxed and relaxed and down to get out there. That is just sound like the wax part is like part of that. If not, okay, good to clarify. A thousand people are hitting the backspace right now. Uh well, Bridget, that sounds great. Thanks for talking with me, Thanks for letting me come along on this ride of this season. Um, congratulations again on the Shorty Award and anything else to say. You know, I wish your listeners a good summer. Thanks for coming along this ride with us. I can't wait to see you every go next. I've loved getting your emails, your tweets, your messages. I cannot tell you how much it means to me. I've had so many times where I'm thinking no one's listening to my podcast. I should just give up, and then I'll get that perfectly timed review or email or shout out, and it means so much, and please keep it going and yeah, I'll see you on the internet. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tango e dot com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unbust creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tary Harrison is our supervising producer, and engineer. Michaelamato is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Toad. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Protect the Y