Meghna Mahadevan is Chief Disinformation Defense Strategist at United We Dream, the country’s largest immigrant youth led organization. She explains how dis and mis information is threatening immigrant communities and how immigrant youth are fighting for a more just digital media landscape.
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If you're on Clubhouse, join me for a virtual happy hour this Friday, February. I'll be hosting a dynamic group of black women, technologists, researchers, and digital organizers for a conversation on disinformation and the Internet. All They're welcome, so grab a bev and meet us. There more info in the show description. You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Let's go back to the first wave of COVID is forcing people to stay in their homes, so we're all spending a lot more time sitting in front of our computers, and most of us are miserable. California is literally on fire. Trump is president, still on Twitter, using the platform to whip as supporters into a violent frenzy by peddling conspiracy theories about the election. Waves of racial justice protests are happening all over the globe, and bad actors are working overtime to exploit these uncertain times and inflame existing tensions between communities of color like the Latin X and Black community. That fall, a viral video showed three black women flipping over a table on an outdoor birthday party. Black Lives Matter destroys Hispanic child's birthday party. The caption reads only that's not true. Fat Checkers found that it was just a dispute between two neighbors. It had nothing to do with Black Lives Matter or protest. Big pages who shared the video just linked it to Black Lives Matter to further inflame tensions between the two communities, to drive home the idea that black folks and the Latin X community shouldn't trust each other. This and misinformation prey on people's base emotions, and when it comes to certain identities, disinformers can be very good at exploiting very real traumas or existing fears. Ahead of the election, immigrant communities are being flooded by inaccurate information about voting and now our country's very real legacy of racism, coupled with a media landscape that allows COVID misinformation to spread, is threatening immigrant communities access to the vaccine at a time when those same communities are among the most impacted by COVID. Megna Mahadeven It's the chief disinformation defense strategist at Unity Dream, the country's largest immigrant youth led organization. She fights the harmful spread of disc and misinformation in immigrant communities. But before that, she was just a frustrated tech employee in the Bay Area. I moved out to the Bay UM was working at Facebook during elections and had a pretty interesting experience working there. UM with the way that the election unfolded and kind of the way that people reacted UH in tech, it was really concerning to me. I had this whole image and idea of being from Georgia and the South. I thought that the Bay in California would be this super liberal place with really progressive values, and instead what I found was that in response to the elections, people were really drinking the kool aid at Facebook in a way that was super concerning to me. UM. No one was willing to acknowledge the role that Facebook had on the elections, UH, and there were just a lot of performative and um surface level reactions to what had happened, and I was pretty disturbed by the way that that went down. Megna left Facebook and started working at Google. In Google engineer James to Moore wrote what was commonly called the Google Memo, where he called Google a quote ideological echo chamber and blasted the company for putting too much emphasis on diversity in tech. It was pretty alienating. I don't know if remember the James Demore memo uh came out then, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that asshole in so long. You just took me back like I forgot about that. I also was on an all male team of all male engineers and I was only female, and I brought it to my manager and was like, I really think we should discuss this. I want to talk about this with the team. And just the rejection that I got in discussing it, talking about any acknowledgement of it was so frustrating. Uh. And it was just kind of experience under experience. So Magna had a lot of experiences like this, experiences that followed her from company to company, confirming that working in Silicon Valley just wasn't where she was supposed to be. Like how when she was working at Snapchat, they featured an advertisement game where users were asked if they wanted to punch Chris Brown or slap Rihanna, a survivor of domestic violence. Snapchat has now removed the ad with this statement, the ad was reviewed and approved in error. We are sorry that this happened. It was almost just my entire time of working in Silicon Valley in tech. I tried to attribute it to the tech company. I tried to attribute it to different environmental factors, but I really just felt an avalanche of so many different things constantly happening that I really felt the tech industry was just deeply problematic, and so I pivoted from there to the Kitboard Center really focused on diversifying the tech industry UM and bringing in specifically black folks UM as well as indigenous Latin X folks UM, and just more people of color, more women into the tech industry. UH. And after working there for about two and a half years, I came into this work earlier this year actually UM with everything happening, with the uprisings and the way that tech continued to handle and react all of these things at such a surface level, I knew I wanted to go deeper in fighting a lot of these systems. And there's a lot of different places in resistance against tech. UM. I've tried and believed in resistance in the tech company. I've believed and tried resistance UM at the level where you're working directly with them UM, working at the foundational level and partnering with tech companies. And I am really enjoying this space that I'm in now of being in movement against UM and resisting against tech companies because I think that there needs to just be a different power shift UM in the way that all of these actions take place, which is what brought me to a lot of disinformation work. So I'm very passionate about tech company accountability UM tech culture, but at the same time, I'm also very passionate about the power of communities of color and the power of building with community, and that's what brought me to my work at United with Dream. So how have you seen disinformation playing out in immigrant communities? Right? So, disinformation, to be clear, has been around since the beginning and the age of the Internet UM, and we've experienced in so many different ways. But with this particular year, something has shifted UM with where all many of us are socially isolated. UM. We are on the Internet more than ever, using our devices more than ever, and this UH disinformation campaigns are really coming in to take advantage of a lot of people's emotional vulnerabilities, their financial vulnerabilities, our unhappiness with the way that society has been upholding US, and particularly within the Lucky Next and the immage grant community, there is a way that disinformation and misinformation campaigns have prayed on UH immigrant communities general fear of political instability. Right, So, my family moved to the United States seeking a better life than what we were previously offered UM, and that's how most immigrant UM families come to the United States. Is just hoping for a better situation for our families, for children, etcetera. There's a lot of fear there in being associated or brought back to a previous situation or political instability or corruption. And the US is a really good job of playing up this facade of being a very stable, UM almost perfect utopian society, particularly in the immigrant eyes. So UM ways that this does come out or transpire is these affiliations with socialism and creating false associations with socialism that and still fear in people UM trying to create this image that America has been great will be great UM and just needs to continue on a certain trajectory, particularly the Latin X community. There's also a lot of work being done by white supremacists to create a wedge racially with the latin X community and other communities of color. And the way that this is done is very strategically almost creating a race hierarchy of affiliating um latin X with with more whiteness UM and kind of trying to create a separation from lackness. It also is a full rature of the upper latin X identity. So by using race as this wedge issue to divide communities UM and create this superiority among some latin X folks, there's really a way to misinform people that by accepting and siding with white supremacy, you are now offered the privilege of being white. When I have you know, dug into different types of disinformation I've seen, especially around the uprise, things I definitely saw, particularly on Facebook, these images of attacks on like latin X like businesses or churches and clearly meant to be giving this impression that oh, this this you know, wave of violence and and instability is coming and the only and like the sort of thing that they the logical next step is like, so vote for Trump, so being a braged so you know, whatever it is that they're trying to get, like, you know, get you to feel or get you to believe, and it's really just so insidious how it taps into these deep these deeply held fears and deeply held emotions. It really they so expertly exploited. It's it really is like I hate to say this, but I have found myself saying this over and over again during this series, like these distant informers are just really good, you know. It's like they really are effective. They know these things that are going to tap into something that that really can like trigger you have to feel to some Well, the thing is is we've set up an infrastructure for them to be good, right, Like we've really made it easy because we almost thirst for the kind of information that they're providing. And I think something really important to acknowledge because again, this disinformation work has been led by UM, by so many black researchers, by so many female researchers who have been doing this work for a very long time. But this year has provided a very different opportunity UM. Just in the same way that social media and internet algorithms have kind of been snowballing out of control. Right, there's a lot of ways that our attention is commodified UM, A lot of ways that our attention is driven towards these really wild news headlines. And that's been the case for years and years, And of course there's been many different political situations for the past years, but is something different right There's a pandemic, the recession, uprisings, the climate change. I mean, there were the few days when, um, I mean I've been living in Oakland for the past five years and the sky was orange. You know. It's a kind of different sensation happening right now where a lot of things are coming to a head to the point where the news headlines are pretty wild. But they've been wild for the past five six years because that's what gets attention, that's what gets engagement with the algorithm. And I really like to frame it as a sort of gas lighting, honestly. UM, my friends and I have this radio show called Dustopia now that we do on a local Oakland station for fun, and something we talk about very often is how confusing it is to live in a society that gaslights you constantly, that tells you that COVID isn't real, even though you're staying at home in your isolating you haven't seen your friends in weeks or months. But then you're being told that this disease or this virus isn't that serious. Um, there's so much gas lighting around just accepting the unknown, right, There's so many things that we just need to be okay with. We don't know what's going to happen, and some of that's just okay. It's okay to not know the answer. And on top of that, a lot of these situations and political situations, climate situations are really really complex and their nuanced and you can't just generalize about them. But what happens is these headlines and these articles and these different types of information they create an outlet. They create almost this really easy gesture of if I just accept this information or this theory, then everything makes sense. Then everything I understand exactly what's happening, why these things are happening, and how they all come together. And so it's almost an escape route from just having to sit with the unknown and sit with the reality of what this year is. Let's take a quick break and we're back. So if I sound a little harried throughout this conversation, it's because Megna and I were speaking in the fall and I was definitely on edge. I can hear it in my voice. In pre election meetings at work, we were both preparing for various election outcomes, including the potential for violence. I didn't know what would happen at the Capitol on Januy Ray six, but it's clearly you felt like something bad was coming. So there's a really funny example of Earlier this week, I was working with a colleague and writing a memo on what we'll do if there's a coup. And it was funny because we were framing it in the reality of the situation, right like, if this happens, we all need to move now. We need you to sign up for these things. And I said to my colleague like, this kind of sounds like a boiler plate email because we've been talking in this tone for so long. But in reality, this email is like a pretty crazy email. If I received this email, I would be like, Wow, where are we at? Um. And at the same time, it just feels like we've been in this state for so long that there's almost no emotional capacity to reckon with what's happening or process what's going on. Absolutely, I had a very similar moment earlier this week. So Um, as you know, As you know, I worked with ultra violet, and we were doing our election post election scenario planning, and I realized I looked at it my notebook, and I realized the thing I was planning for was um like a like mass mass violence, like a mass violent event triggered by the election. And I just had this moment where I was like, what is this. I am in a meeting right now planning for our contingency plan for what will happen if our election trigger some sort of like big scary thing. And truly it was a real moment that I could not wrap my head around. On the one hand, it seems very dystopiant that I would be, you know, um preparing for this, But on the other hand, it's something that we needed to prepare for. And I just never, I truly like never thought that I would the things that we are talking about and preparing for and dealing dealing with. I never in a million years that I would find myself dealing with them. Yeah, And I think that's also kind of attributed to again going back to this gas lighting feeling of the way that we have accepted normalcy or we're still expecting people to work eight to five when all of these different things are happening around us. It's pretty wild. And I think the way that disinformation also allows a place for people to put blame on really specific people, really specific parties, instead of understanding the way that all of this is so systemic. It's something that's rooted in the way that we move every single day. You know, we're still a tune to Yes, there's a pandemic and these different things happening, but I still need to be productive. I still need to I'll put all of these things. Um, it's so rooted into all of our behavior, and it's part of I think the way that we do consume this information and disinformation and conspiracies as almost a pacifier in these moments. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I I find myself like I was not to get too much, but like I was talking to my therapist about this, and I was like, you know, maybe maybe we shouldn't be like the fact that we are all continuing to work and like trying to be productive on the backdrop of what's happening to our country. Maybe we shouldn't be productive right now, right Like maybe like maybe we should be a little less okay with you know, what's happening, that maybe things shouldn't be business as usual and really kind of having to come to terms with the fact that we are working and living and living our lives in what feels like healthscape. Yeah, first of all, never too much talk about conversation your therapist. Honestly, that's a podcast I would listen to, UM, but yeah, it's it's really weird. And then there's just this added element of not being in community with people, which is another thing that's offered by disinformation and particularly with conspiracy theories UM that really prey on people who are lonely because there's so much isolation happening right now, but there's so much online community around certain conspiracies that it is again a place where you can go to talk about what's happening because there's not many outlets. And it's also again hard to reckon with political differences with loved ones in these times. And like, you know, I mean my friend are talking and it's she's she made this great point of like we're just in this moment where we're getting to know everything about everyone we know and love, and it's almost a little bit too much information. You know, I didn't need to know this extent of where your values fall and like where your lines are drawn. Um, you know, it's it's a lot of exposure to every single political opinion of another person and their values. You know, when we talk about disinformation, we're often talking about technical things like AI and algorithms, but it's important to remember that disinformation is also about relationships. Just listen to anyone who's lost a loved one to an all encompassing online conspiracy theory like Q and on. It tears apart families and creates deep divisions. Last fall, Magna and United Dream held a healing space for people harmed by its impact. Something that I've really found is that disinformation, it really can impact relationships. You know, finding out that you're someone that you have like your cousin or your aunt, someone that you love and trust and you you know, you think like this is a smart, thoughtful person and a like a thoughtful addition to my life and to my community. Finding out that they have been really misled by a conspiracy theory or different disinformation can be jarring. And I think that's something that I love about what you're doing with the Unitedy Dream. You know, you actually held a healing space around disinformation yesterday, I can you tell me a bit about like why that was, why that made sense for your organization to be framing in that way, like not a webinar or a training but a healing space. I think the thing with immigrant communities to understand is that there's a lot of cultural difference that happens. And especially being a child of immigrants in the United States, I can definitely attest to feeling like you come from two different worlds. Um my family immigrated from India. I feel like I have this Indian world at home, and then I also am this other not quite American person, and it's very difficult to merge the two. On top of that, being an immigrant, there's also a lot of value to coming to America. You know, there's a whole narrative with your folks and your family back home that you made it. You know what it took for you. You know that you beat the odds. You were one of very few people who were able to make it to America. It's a huge accomplishment. So to then come to America and question its political stability, um it's ability and power to be the life that you have always dreamed for. Your generations to follow in your children. It's a really hard thing to do to question the infrastructure whereas um, I mean, even if I look at my own family, right, So, my grandmother was married at age nine and she had ten children, and my parents come from the villages. They didn't have running water or electricity really until they were in their mid twenties. And then my sister and I who live a pretty liberal life in the United States. So the cultural difference is very vast, or can be very vast. And what we've seen with a lot of our staff is a lot of confusion and difficulty explaining what's going on with family and getting to realize that there's a lot of political differences and what's happening right now. And it's not necessarily that the values are different, right um, As I was saying earlier, a lot of people believe in ritual solidarity. They are folks of color. But what happens, and it's actually pretty concerning the way that misinformation campaigns are being run. But they are truly understanding or believing the misinformation in a way where it is fully indoctrinated into their understanding or it's they're so deep in the conspiracy theory that it's very difficult to pull someone out, and especially with topics that are so close to the heart UM, so things where we're talking about who we're voting for for president. To understand that suddenly you're realizing that your parents are Trump supporters is extremely painful. It's extremely emotional to realize that your parents are also uplifting and sharing the wrong videos of different contexts of UM birthday parties that are showing racial conflicts or like Black Lives Matter issues and they are picking the wrong side. It's extremely personal. So what we're finding there's been a lot of different situations I can talk about, but UM some of our staff have had to fully divorce from their families at this time, because when you're doing movement work or you're even trying to be in this space, it's really difficult to reckon with kind of having to explain who you are and your core values because in some way it's almost trying to explain your vision of this world, and it's scary with your family to feel invalidated UM with your vision for the world. It really is that serious. When people start to reveal UM the thoughts behind their politics, but the reason we're holding healing space, and we had an amazing time yesterday with our partner of Listening Works to really talk about the malicious um actors behind the disinformation. And I think it's important here to also call out the distinction between disinformation and misinformation, and that everyone's really looking for the truth right now, like what's actually happening with the government, what's actually happening with the pandemic, and in doing that, a lot of people are spreading misinformation where they're just trying to keep others informed. Then there's actors who have a malicious goal beneath what they're doing. And for most of us, our family and friends don't have a malicious goal, but they have become caught and we're targeted by people who are spreading disinformation, and we need to understand how this is really a racialized effort that's preying on some of the biggest vulnerabilities of immigrant communities, of communities of color, and that's where they're really getting into the heads of people who are vulnerable and who do need um basic societal things. And that's what's important for us to find ways to heal as a community, because yes, we can look at tech companies and tell them that they need to have more accountability. Yes, we can ask journalists to change their headlines, but at the end of the day, are they really going to do it. It'll take time. So it's really up to us as a community to be empowered to take power in these moments to rebuild and unifier communities. More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it. Disinformers prey on people who are already underrepresented. For instance, because there aren't enough places to get Spanish language news coverage. Bad actors can exploit that gap and fill it with harmful and accurate information. Disinformers are really exploiting a group of people who have been traditionally like underserved and underrepresented. You know, I know that one of the reasons why in the Latin next community, why Spanish language disinformation is so insidious, because disinformers are seizing on a like like a news gap. There aren't that many there aren't an enough you know, news sources in Spanish, and so they know, okay, well we can swoop in and fill that gap. These like this is a community that is that is currently underserved. We can serve them, but will serve them up harmful lies. There's an accountability gap um of checking Spanish sources, of checking Spanish articles, and that just really leaves the door open for people to pray on communities of color and Latino X communities in that way and manipulate the power that we all have as community of color and Latin X communities have to really shape their own agenda. Yeah, that's really what I see these. I mean, like, if we were to like zoom out on these conversations, I want to build a world where disinformation is not profitable where you know, I think that would be the only thing that gets platforms to relate. If we if we built a world where this was not a profitable thing to do and not a profitable thing to have on your a platform, I think that will be the way to actually solve it. I don't I don't see any other way. I think that is. Yes, appreciate, I do have a nail on the head. It's there's so many issues with the way that we make money off of disinformation. Right. One, it's just the general social media algorithm, because I think at this point we're already here, right the disinformation is rampant. People are deeply manipulated every single time that we hold a session. Whenever I get into the weeds of getting on the ground floor of the way that Florida, Arizona, Texas, all these battleground states, people have been deeply targeted and are getting deeply manipulated in a way where we really need to make a significant effort to pull people out of this information that has fully entrenched and confused them. But a big part of it is our social media algorithm makes money off of the engagement of articles, and the articles that kept the most engagement, and the news that gets the most engagement is the news that's disinformation and misinformation in the way that it's framed, the way that it's created. So we're already at this point. But these algorithms are learning on their own, and the Internet is learning on its own. So we're only going to fall deeper unless we have a serious intervention and unless we teach people how to protect themselves from the vulnerabilities on the internet. Well that's a great segue to my next question, how can folks protect themselves in their communities? So I think part of this it is kind of going back to healing, but we need to be understanding of one another. And this thing I'm personally working on um a really fun success story. I think of healing that I've been working on with my Indian community is me in a bunch of the other children. We all kind of immigrated here together from India. We have been trying to hold our family accountable. So we have monthly meetings where we bring up different topics and we talk about what's going on. And it's really really hard. It's hard to sit and listen to someone's opinion, no matter what it is. And that something I think we've only had an increasing intolerance for, or decreasing tolerance for, with the way that we have these comfortable Internet silos where we can live within only people who have our own opinion. But we need to make a call to unity this country, no matter what the election outcome is, no matter what happens, we are so divided, our families are so divided, our communities are so divided. We need to make time and effort to listen and bring our communities together on the same page and heal. I think that's something I really want to uplift as an effort to push against this information and misinformation and I think that also creates a stronger support system for people who do fall deep into the webs of conspiracy theories and um disinformation. Another piece of that is, whenever we're seeing things on the Internet, before we share them and amplify them, we need to just learn to pause. There's such an emotional experience and even an embodied experience when we're on the internet. Right, most people when they're on their phones are bent over neck down, pretty disassociated from their physical existence and lost in the internet. We need to learn to reconnect with our physical selves. What even when we're on our devices and notice, if something is making you feel uncomfortable, if it's making you anxious, think twice before you share it, fact check it, Think about why might someone have put this article out there? Why is this news being created? Who made it? What's the agency? What am I trying to do by resharing this and really thinking through the chain, the part that we all play in the chain of information. Oh my god, I have to tell you, but right before we got on this, on this call, I had had that moment myself. Right, so I train on disinformation. I give people that that same advice, right, don't amplify it. If it. If you think something is fake, if you think something is is disinformation, disinformation, take a beat, don't amplify it. I saw a video of t I, the rapper from Atlanta. So I saw this video of the rapper t I on a pretty big hip hop and culture website, and in it, he says that he can't get COVID because he drinks hot tea. Now we know that it is completely inaccurate and ridiculous. Hot beverages like tea do not cure COVID. And when I saw this video, you know, my heart was racing. I was thinking about all the different Black people who have died of COVID, the harm that COVID has done to our communities in particular, and all the different Black people who probably think of t I as a leader in our communities, as a voice of someone that they look up to or should listen to. And I got more and more angry. My first instinct was to retweet it and call him out and call the video out and force him to be accountable for it. But then I was like, do I really want more people seeing this video? Do I really want more people seeing this completely inaccurate, dangerous information. So I had to go through that process of kind of taking a minute, taking a breath, sitting with my emotions, and really just taking a step back. But in that moment, it was a real moment of emotional and cognitive surge. And that's that's what they're so good at, because what they're looking for is that engagement. And you know, even if you like it, if you look at it for a long time, all these media companies are tracking that how long you're looking at it, how many times you're watching the video, and that's what brings it engagement. And I think actually what comes to mind when you share that story is the amazing guide that you made an Ultra Violet UM when Kamala Harris was selected as a vice presidential candidate. And I thought that was really powerful. So this guide UM about what are the tropes that happened most commonly in the way that we talk about female political candidates and black female political candidates and um interracial immigrant of female candidates. So I think the way that you frame that of here are things not to uplift. Don't talk too much about the way that she's dressed or makeup, or her facial expressions or her family role, and that was super helpful to me, and I wish we even thought through that on a broader level in general, about social media, the internet and the way that we engage with any talking points to really decolonize and understand the way that we are uplifting racism by talking so much about what's little way in doing, what's U T I doing, etcetera. Yeah, I mean we were on a panel together, you and I where you made this great point that disinformation it keeps us from seeing from seeing who we really are, right, it keeps us from seeing each other fully. And I think, you know, it's important to have those conversations that we talk about this information, but I would love to have that conversation more broadly. What are the things that keep us from being able to fully see each other for who we really are? And you know, it's like we have these these filters on that that when you see a woman like like Harris, it's like, oh family role, oh complex, oh speak, like the way that she speaks. All of these little things that keep us from really seeing each other and engaging with each other for who we really are and like seeing each other fully. Yeah, what a beautiful question to ask for ship. You know, I was actually reading again last night. Um, I think it's a Sada shakur is that you can't spent all the Master's house with the Master's tool, you know I'm talking about and yes, the classic. I was like, I need to I need something uplifting, and I think it's really interesting in these times. So first of all, yeah, I want to credit that they these are ideas that came from her, But um, I think it's really a really great question in this moment where we are starting to finally begin to scratch the surface of the Black Lives Matter movement and talking about race in a more nuanced way, talking about intersectionality for the first time. I mean, I was pretty shocked to hear this that. I think it was a Biden that said, you know, black trans women are dying, and I thought that was really powerful. Um One, it's very late in the game to start realizing it. But at the same time, we are finally beginning to scratch the surface of intersectional identities and racial identities, and at the same time, the way that people want to talk about it is still by generalizing to the black experience, to the trans experience. Two very particular things and still try to categorize people into boxes. And I think in the same way, the reason that disinformation offers so much to people is because we don't want to really get nuanced. And at the end of the day, I'm talking all these things about um unifying, and we need to unify, but at the same time, part of unifying is also celebrating our differences. We need to understand and acknowledge the differences that we have and really figure out ways to define and understand the complexity of those experiences and uplift them, because that's really where our creativity lies, and that's where our power lies, and that's why we're stronger together is because we're different. And I think it takes a lot of work. It's really easy to be lazy, and I mean, I think that there's a lot of different narratives around race that are that can be lazy, that can be um kind of followed up into like a quick tweet, but it really shouldn't be um that short or pippy of a statement. It is very nuanced. And the more comfortable we get with the nuance with the unknown with patients, I think that's what it will take for us to really start to see each other and uplift one another. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from you at Hello at TANGOI Dot Come Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I Heart Radio, OH and Unbust. Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamoto is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the I Heart Medio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.