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The Tudor Dixon Podcast: How Impeachment Became a Never-Ending Payback Game

Published Sep 20, 2023, 8:00 AM

In this episode, Tudor welcomes Julian Epstein to discuss the division between political parties in the United States and the increasing use of impeachment as a political weapon. They express concerns about the impact of constant impeachment inquiries on the country's power and ability to address important issues. They also discuss the lack of meaningful discussions and debates in today's political climate, the role of politicians in staying true to their authentic selves, and the importance of resolving issues like the UAW strike. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday, Wednesday, & Friday. For more information visit TudorDixonPodcast.com

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Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today should be a very interesting conversation as we dig deep into the division between our nation's political parties. I'm joined by a man who knows a little bit about impeachments. Julian Epstein was the chief counsel to the House Judiciary Committee fighting Bill Clinton's impeachment. Now we're two impeachments, two impeachments and one impeachment inquiry later, some of us are asking if this justice system is becoming a political weapon, and if so, where does that lead. Julian Epstein, thank you so much for joining me, Tudor.

Thanks for having me on the podcast. And it's a delight to meet you. As I was just saying a few minute ago, I watched you on the campaign trail last year, and I was very impressed with a lot of what you said, and I actually thought you were going to be one of the upside candidates that was going to win and the last but I enjoyed watching you very much and I was very impressed by your candidacy.

Thank you.

I appreciate that well you've been in this political world a lot longer than I have. I obviously lived through watching the Bill Clinton impeachment from the outside, and you know, I'm probably at that point, I think in college, thinking what does this all mean? I'm at that point, I think, just a few years younger than Monica Lewinsky. And I don't think I could see it then for what I see it as now. But I mean in the midst of what I look at back then. Gosh, I just saw John Fetterman tweet something that I would think would get most people impeached back in the nineties. Now, you know, like things have changed. Let's just say that things have really changed. But we also see we had two impeachments of President Trump and now we have an impeachment inquiry into President Biden. Is that going to be the new normal? And how much does that take away from our power as a country, our preparedness as a country, our ability to protect our own citizens and make sure that we're keeping control over national security and all the things that you have to do as a US government if you're constantly embroiled in some impeachment inquiry.

I think it's an excellent question, and I worry that it is becoming the norm. I remember giving an interview to The New York Times during the first Trump impeachment saying that impeachment was going to become increasingly a political weapon rather than a tool of legal accountability, sort of like the War of the Roses going back a few centuries, and it would just be this sort of unending payback that was going to go on. And you know, I think there's some of that going on here, and I think in general it is our system of accountability, whether you talk about impeachment or whether you talk about Justice Department enforcement of laws against political figures, is becoming way, way too politicized. And I think there are probably sins on both sides, But to your point, it is as it did during the Trump presidency. It sucked up all the oxygen. Russia Gates sucked up the oxygen for all four years of the Russia of the Trump presidency. You know, notwithstanding the fact that the Durham Report found there really wasn't the quotion of evidence to begin the investigation in the first place. I think the Democrats grossly overplayed their hand on the whole Russia Gate matter, and arguably impeachment as well, and I think it is. It is becoming the political norm. You look at just the and I know you spoke about this is one of the reasons I was so impressed with your candidacy last year. You talked, you spoke about educational performance in the public schools and how poor our performance in the public schools, and how few high school are proficient in math and English, and how those numbers are getting worse. And I thought you made if I remember correctly, I thought you made a pretty good case on school choice, which I'm uscled for. And we sort of don't have that debate. We're not having the debate. I know you've been a big champion of manufacturing, and the Biden administration likes to talk about all the manufacturing jobs that are coming back, when in fact, very few manufacturing jobs have actually come back into the country. If you look at the trend line over the last ten years of manufacturing jobs, we're gaining maybe one hundred two hundred thousand a year, not that many. For the last ten years, the trends have been the same. The Biden administration basically has seen some of the rebound jobs from COVID comeback, but overall, the manufacturing sector has been hurting for a long time, and the growth in manufacturing has not been very substantial in the last two years or in the last ten years.

You said something that we're not having the debate. I think that that's the case in so many places. And this seems like when you see people say the country's so divided right now, we can't have a conversation. And I don't know if this is the fact that you have social media and you have so many loud voices out there that just proclaim something and everybody takes that as okay, that's where the party stands. But if you look at what we're seeing with education, we can't have the debate, and there are outside controlling factors that are taking over the debate. You have the teachers' union, you have the parents' groups. So those are the ones that are clashing. But nobody's sitting down and saying, well, I mean, come on, guys, is there something that we can actually talk about here and say, okay, we're going to agree that we can't accept a five percent reading proficiency rate. This is robbing these kids of an education and future, and it's filling our prisons. Those two facts are intertwined. So let's say we have to have a solution here. But if we're a Republican, we're on one side. If we're a Democrat, we're on the other side, and we're not coming together. I mean, we can talk about this when it comes to the border, when it comes to abortion, when it comes to all of these different discussions.

We don't.

We as humans live in the gray area. As politicians, you live in the black and white area. It's ridiculous.

Well, I mean that's one of the reasons I liked your candidacy because you spoke in terms like this, which I think people relate to. I think you could take you know, you could get ten Americans in a room, any ten random Americans, and eight out of ten would agree with what you just said. That we don't have a serious discussion going on about education, and our public school systems are going to hell, and you can just see it in the performance standards, and it's getting worse and worse all the time. Immigration has been a disaster under this administration. There's I mean, you can be as pro immigrant and as welcoming as you want, but the idea that we can absorb seven million folks without sort of any seven million migrants without any meaningful plan. Look at the chaos in New York right now. Yeah, I mean, I think your basic point is there's a lot of issues out there. Education, I think is the best example, but you know, retooling our economy so we're ready for what they call the fourth Industrial Revolution is an issue that no one talks about, and I don't think we're well enough prepared for. And I think it hits the middle class and the working class with huge numbers. But yes, I think your general thesis that you were your question, which is that we are becoming so ensconced in this political scandalization and the payback one administration after the next, we are not dealing with sort of these issues. And I think social media, to your point, has also had so many ill effects on our society. It is tearing apart the fabric of our society and in our politics, it is all it is doing is empowering the extremes on the left and the right, so that though eight and ten people that I think you speak to are not having their voice heard in the every day in our everyday politics, and it's so it's it's a shame that politicization is crowding out the debate. Social media, which empowers the extremists on the far left and on the far right, is crowding out the debate, and everyday people are not having their essential needs address.

Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I'll tell you something that I thought was funny when I first started running for office, because you have all these people that come in and they're giving you advice, and they're all your consultants, you know, And there are some people that are like, you got to do you know, Whitmer's doing TikTok videos get out there on social media. And I said, guys, I'm never going to do that because it's just not who I am and it would be very faked. And then someone said to me, well, you can't do that anyway, you're not running for congress. And I remember that striking so hard because I thought, are you allowed.

To be a clown if you run for Congress?

Like when did running for Congress become really different than running for any other office? Like you can just be you're a celebrity if you're running for Congress. And I think that that has become a part of the problem. We got away from a sampling of people from all different parts of the country, and you started to get this group of actors. And I mean, we've heard people call Washington, d C. The Hollywood for ugly people, but really you have a lot of people playing a part. And I would argue that even Joe Biden has played a part for many years because he's never been a working man. He's never actually he's never actually driven an eighteen wheeler. You know, he's talking about the unions right now, the UAW strike right now from a place of absolutely no personal knowledge on it.

And I'm looking at our guys here.

You know, I supplied the automotive industry for years, and I'm talking to the shops here and they're going, this is devastating to us to have these auto workers out, because every plant that's shut down means we shut down, and then somebody in the next state shuts down, and somebody in the next state shuts down, and all of those folks that are making fifty to sixty thousand dollars a year, they're not getting the five hundred dollars strike rate every week they're off. They're getting nothing. And so these guys that are all playing the part, they're not actually they have no idea of what the background is of what's actually happening in the country.

I think that's right. I mean, I think one, I'm glad that you say things, and I wish more candidates and politicians would say that, I am going to stay true to my authentic self, and I think very very few people do that. I mean, Christen Cinema is another person, an Arizona senator, who has just said, I don't believe in the orthodoxies of the left or the right. I'm going to be an independent voice and I'm going to call it as I see it, and I'm not going to be sort of dictated to by the you know, by the sort of the chieftains of the party as to what I have to think or what the orthodoxy should be. And I love that. I like that about you. I love that about Kristen Cinema, and I like that. So I think that's good. I think your second point about these politicians playing the clown game to get elected into office, I mean, I think that is the world that we are living in on social media, which is you are playing to a very small and vocal extreme minority. You know, Progressives, for example, in this country represent probably five or six percent of the voters. But the Democratic Party is sort of you know, genuflecting and cow taling to a lot of the presisive activists because they are so disproportionately active on social media and they will try to cancel and berate people that depart from the orthodoxies. And this is part of the thing that I think is is destroying our country. And I also agree with you on the multiplier effect the strike and the all of the surrounding communities and sort of the need to you know, hopefully see some resolution on that soon. So so yeah, I.

Wonder what it is with you. Well, I wonder if these conversations where you have folks coming out. I mean, that was really Gretchen whitmer Ran on the unions. I support the unions, you know, I support the Teachers' Union. Of course, she was getting millions, so of course she's supporting them. They're supporting her.

It's a team. They're a team.

And she's coming out and saying that like they can do no wrong. And I'm not saying that she should do something different, but I'm saying there is a conversation to be had. This is something independent from politics. And so when you empower people like that, just like politicians, sometimes those people take it too far. And you've got Randy Weingart and going over to Ukraine, and we're like, why is the teachers union leader going over to Ukraine, you know, holding the flag upside down? But whatever, you know, she's over there talking to these people, and she's now so important. But I have to say that she also, Gretchen Whitmer immediately came in and said we're going to get rid of right to work in the state of Michigan, which was pretty devastating to a lot of our employers. And I think that you are not really reading the tea leaves. I mean, you see, we just saw Ford put eleven billion dollars into Tennessee and Kentucky. Ford is Ford is Michigan. You know, you look at these auto companies, this is what Michigan was built on.

We built wheels.

I mean that we put the country on wheels, and they were looking at other states because it's a heck of a lot easier to pay for energy in Tennessee, where they make sure that they keep their energy costs low.

And where they don't have unions.

Let's just be honest, it's easier to not fight with your union bosses every day. And then she gets rid of right to work and lo and behold a few months later a historic strike where they strike against all three auto makers. I mean, and now she's just gone. She took her millions, she's run, she's not running again. Why are we having politicians dabble in the private sector and then get out when it's uncomfortable.

Well, I take your point, and I think, you know, I wish more politicians would spend more time in the private sector. I think they would learn a lot more about how businesses work, and particularly the press of small businesses trying to make ends meet. Before you know, they make a lot of policy changes, whether it's raising taxes or or or you name it. I think as to the right to work, you know, I think there are a lot of sort of blue state governors that are starting to rethink, you know, the loss of jobs and the right to work states. And I think that's sort of something that a lot of people are giving some some more thought to. You sort of, at the end of the day, have to look at the data, and and I think, you know, I think there's some examination of that right now. I would also separate the teachers' unions out from sor some of the other unions. I mean, I think at some point the teacher unions are going to have to say, there's accountability. You know, we have to accept some accountability. If the criticism is that you allow too much incompetence into the system, it can borrow in. You can't fire bad teachers, and that is showing up in poor test scores in math and English across the board, particularly for black and brown students. At some point, the teachers' unions are going to have to say we take responsibility. I mean, if they were if Randy Weingarten were in another profession, if you were the CEO of say Ford and Ford were performing just to circle back, and Ford was performing as poorly as the public schools are performing in terms of results, I mean, she would be fired in the blink of an eye. And I just think this is an issue. A school choice is an issue that is growing in popularity. You saw what happened in Pennsylvania with the governor, Governor Shapiro, who was for it, and then he got muscled by the unions and sort of backed down, and they found this sort of middle ground position, which I don't think is a real middle ground position, But that is an issue that is changing. It's changing in favor of school choice, and at some point the unions, I think are the teachers' unions, You're going to have to face the music on this issue. Their performance has just been abysmal and unacceptable. And I think voters, including Democratic voters in significant numbers, are seeing that now. And imagine that's the case in Michigan in part because of your campaign last year. But I think they're seeing it, and I think, you know, change is within the next decade on that.

That's something that we struggled to get across to people, but you know, we tried really hard. And that was one of the examples I would use. Look, if I had a production line that was making five percent good product and everything else had to be scrapped and I had to remelt it and report it and I only got ever five percent good product, I wouldn't be in business.

So how do we allow the schools?

How do we allow our taxpayer dollars to go toward ruining these children's lives, and let's be honest. I mean, we can't mince words here. You have robbed them of an education. They will not have a future because of this, and it absolutely is disproportionately black and brown children.

But if I if I.

Fight for that, I don't necessarily have a lot of support from certain Republicans. You've got Democrats who will never say it. And again, I don't believe it's because these people, regardless of what side they're on, don't want these kids to have a good education. No way, That's not what it is. We have become so politically divided that you are afraid to come out and have a strong stance on anything. And if you are afraid to have a backbone on certain issues like good child's education, then maybe you're not the right person to be in office.

But what have we done to politicians to make.

It controversial to talk about every kid succeeding?

I think it's outrageous.

But I mean, look at where we are right now with Joe Biden. I think that there are a lot of Democrats who watch his performance on a daily basis and they go, man, this is a problem. I mean, the man is aging before our eyes. But he is an older person. He's clearly suffering. He's had a lot of gaps. He's said a lot of weird things, whether it's aging or not. He keeps making up these stories about his personal background that simply aren't true. Democrats have to be in fear of how he performs in twenty four.

So you said a lot of things there, which I think I agree with a lot of them. First, with respect to the teachers' unions, they are extremely powerful. They are a huge union. They organize voters on election day, they have huge war tests, and I think a lot of Democratic politicians and just think it's not worth having a public fight with them, even though the performance is so poor in the public schools and they are losing support all of the time from voters. I think. Secondly, your point is which I again agree with, and I'll tie it back to the Biden question, is we are living in an age of intimidation because of social media, where the loud, extreme voices intimidate the common sense center, the eighty percent of us who want common sense solutions to everyday problems like education that you speak about. And this is a terrible thing, and I don't know what the answer is to it, but it is really ripping apart our social fabric and our political fabric. I agree with you on that. On a good example of that, which you tied it to, and I would tie it to, is the Biden question. I wrote a piece for The Wall Street Journal in March of this year saying that Biden should not run that the primary reason is because I think, with all due respect to him and his career, he's not mentally competent to be president. I mean, you watch him in any any extemporaneous interchange between him and a reporter, and he inevitably gets facts wrong, or he stumbles his way through a question, and it's embarrassing. And that is not the kind of mental competency you expect for the most powerful man in the world, the commander in chief of our country. And it's it's plainly obvious to everybody, including Democratic voters, two thirds of whom don't want him to run for reelection. So when I wrote that piece in March, I had dinner that night with a lot of political strategists, some of them Democrat, and all of them said to me, I completely agree with you, And I said to them, don't you say anything about them. Why don't you say so publicly? Oh, no, I can't do that. I'd get squashed. And I'm sure I got, you know, exed off for the White House Christmas Party list for writing that piece. And then in the course of the next week or two, I had different events. I hosted a couple of events at which Democratic elected officials were there, and to a t all of them said to me, I completely agree with what you said. Completely agree with what you said. And I said, we why don't you say that. We can't come out and say that, can't cross the president. It would just be bad for the party, it would be divisive. And so there is we are living in this situation. And I think that the teachers the teachers' unions is one good example. And I think also this question about whether Biden should run is another example where people don't say what they really think and they'ren't scared and they're intimidated. You know. Cato did a survey a couple of years ago which which found that somewhere between sixteen and seventy percent of them Americans were scared to say what they really think about everyday political issues for fear of the reaction that they would get, the sort of the outrage, the sanctimony of the extremes on the other side who would disagree with them, the contempt, the politics of contempt, which Arthur Brooks has written at AEI has written about very very beautifully. So we're in agreement that most I think Americans reside in the common sense center and want to hear common sense solutions and are being drowned out by the extremes, in large part because of social media and sort of the dysfunction that has become our politics.

When you see these indictments, I mean, currently we're looking at this impeachment hearing in DC, but we've got for indictments against the former president. Oddly enough, those are the two people running for president again that seemed.

To be in the lead.

What do you think that the country sees when they see these indictments? Do are there any folks on the Democrat side. I think a lot of Republicans feel like this is in many cases, in many of these indictments, these are outrageous. But do you think that there are Democrats who are also saying, I don't know, maybe this is going a little too far. Because I've had people on our side say, who's ever going to run for president again?

Who wants this?

And I got to tell you it makes you nervous, you know, I wrote.

I also wrote a piece about a month after the Biden shouldn't run piece. I also wrote another piece for the Wall Street Journal saying that, you know, Republicans overreached on the Clinton impeachment in ninety eight, and I lived through that up close and personal and sort of warning the Democrats should not overreach as well, and that they were dangerously close to that. So on the Trump indictments, I mean, look, I didn't vote for Trump. I don't like what Trump did on January sixth. I don't like the whole document. It's the taking of the documents after the classified documents, after we left office. I'm critical of those things that said, you know, with respect to January sixth, I think it's fair to ask the question, why is it taking the Justice Department over three years to bring the case. By the time the actual case occurs, I mean they knew about I mean sort of the facts were on the table. They did not have to wait for a congressional investigation. Sort Of a lot of the facts that they know were on the table or were ascertainable, I would say within twelve months. Why is it that they're waiting three years to bring the case in the middle of an election against the major party candidate. I mean, that just looks bad. Regardless of what the merits are or may not be of the case, that just looks bad. And I think Democrats have not given a very good answer to that. The brag prosecution in New York I've also written about that's a disastrous prosecution. That case should have never been brought with, never brought against anyone else. If the last name had not been Trump, and you know what.

We think, if he had not run again, would it have been brought Yeah.

I think so, because I think it's bloodsport for a lot of the lefties in our party. Yeah. I think they just have such a visceral dislike for him. I also think there's a codependency between Trump and the left and mainstream media. I mean Trump needs Trump needs the mainstream media and the left to beat up on him. It's part of his brand, It's part of what generates support in his base. Can you imagine what the ratings for CNN would have been in the last four years, if they had not had Trump to further to be every time breaking news. You know, the end is near. He is about to be frog marched, you know, if they didn't have that on a sort of hourly basis and a repetition loop, where the ratings would have been or where so many of our democratic what so many of our democratic politicians would have been talking about if it weren't you know, Trump's latest you know, alleged breach, they might have to be talking about school choice or education or other things that are important. So there is this weird codependency that goes on between Trump and the left and the mainstream media.

Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tutor Dixon podcast. And as you've mentioned, they can use Trump against other candidates. I mean, you hear them talking about the MAGA extremists and you can get lumped into that category and then that's like a stain that they can use against you, right, And.

You know, look, I would love to see nothing more than to see the Democratic Party, particular Democratic Party of old, the Clinton Democratic Party, which was a very centrist, mainstream you know, moderate culturally, moderate, economically, sort of pro business Democratic party that's sort of the Democratic Party I grew up in, and I believe them. But you know, you don't hear the Democrats talking too much about bid nomics. They like to. But you know, as sort of all the numbers showed, you know, the average person has lost money under the Biden administration, and mean wages have not kept up with inflation. We've had seventy percent inflation. Wages have just started really going up in a meaningful way, but the inflation has clearly outstripped them, and so the average family is losing six seven thousand dollars a year as a result of the policies in the last three years. But you know, you don't hear a great deal of depth of debate on that issue because we're it's Trump all of the time. It's Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. You know, prosecution, prosecution, this, you know this, this transgression, that transgression, So you don't you know it, like the social media problem that we were discussing, the Trump Trump has sort of eclipsed everything else in our politics, so we're not talking about what everyday Americans want to talk about and sort of comment send. So so I think back to the prosecution in New York. I think that prosecution was a disaster. It is a disaster. The notion that you would prosecute hush money as a campaign contribution, It's just not if you read the statute and if you see how the FEC Federal Elections Commission has interpreted what is and is not a campaign contribution. Spending money on something like hush money, funds on something like hush money, or a whole slew of other expenditures is not considered a campaign contribution, and to try to criminalize it is just, you know, it's it's just ridiculous overreach. I think it is a it is a travesty of a prosecution. And some Democrats have pointed them that out, but not enough have And you know, so I think that that is that's another concern about the prosecution. If you look at Georgia. You know, in Ruth Marcus made this point in the Washington Post, and she was one of the very very few people on the left to make the point. You know, that may be a case of overkill as well, essentially the same conduct as being tried by the Feds by Jack Smith on the January sixth batter. You know, it's not that it's necessarily a constitutional bar. It's not a double jeopardy issue for the state to try the same set of facts. But in many instances you would see the state, you know, defer or elect not to prosecute if the Feds are sort of prosecuting that set of facts. And I think sort of the rico is just you know, I think it's going to be a lot harder case than a lot of people think it is to prove.

What about these cases against the electors, the people that came out and had the alternative slate? What about those cases we have that in Michigan. That is also a situation in Georgia. And I think that that has really scared the grassroots of the party because they go, gosh, these people were they were created, as you know, voted in as electors. They had this political maneuver that if the courts went a certain way, their slate would be accepted. But I mean, we've got people that are in their eighties that are facing you know, decades in jail because of this. And folks on one side are saying this is not really illegal. They didn't they didn't break the law. The other side is saying, we're going to get them. We're going to put them in jail.

Yeah, I that's one of the reasons I think it is going to be a more difficult prosecution than a lot of people think. Basically, the alternate elector scheme is based on a what I think is an extreme, maybe a fringe reading of the twelfth Amendment, which is that the vice president can tabulate the counter votes. There were disputed elections in the nineteenth century, so the past of the Electoral Count Act, the Electoral Count Act is hopelessly confused. It is impossible to really go through, even as a skilled attorney. It is impossible to go through and sort of understand exactly what that means in various different scenarios. So, you know, John Eastman's point of view on that is that what governs is as an originalist, what governs is the twelfth Amendment, and the twelfth Amendment gives the vice president the sort of the sole discretion in counting the votes and counting which votes are legitimate and which votes are illegitimate. I disagree with that reading. I think that's wrong. I think that's a fringe point of view, But it doesn't mean that it's criminal to believe that and sort of the alternate elector's scheme flowed from that reading. So I think they're going to run up on some chat challenging arguments as to whether that conduct is protected by the First Amendment. You know. I think that's sort of the one question in the Georgia case. I think the second question in the Georgia case is when Trump called Rosenberger and said, I just need to find eleven seven hundred and eighty votes, did that mean necessarily that he was asking Rasenberger to falsify election returns? And I'm not sure you can make that leap. I mean, that's the Georgia Statute, the Georgia Statute. I'm simplifying things here. There are some complications and some nuances, but essentially the Florida statue, the Georgia Statute requires that you solicit a state official to falsify election returns. And Trump simply saying I just need to find eleven thousand, seven hundred and eighty votes does not necessarily mean he's asking him to false by the votes. It could mean I really believe there's one hundred thousand false votes in Georgia, just one trying to find ten percent of them and I need you to dig a little deeper. So I think there's I think there's you know, there's room for Trump defense on both of those issues.

So I think that's why we're seeing a lot of division right now. I think that's why we see I think I mean in Michigan, I see a lot of fear in the grassroots and they don't know how aggressive they want to be out there with their opinions.

Now.

I think there are some who will still continue to go out there and fight as hard as they can. But you see people that are kind of backing off of politics altogether. I think that's bad for both parties because people don't want to vote, they don't want to get involved, they don't want to be out there knocking doors. People are afraid to knock doors. They're like, gosh, you know, we had a woman knocking doors last year. She's eighty years old, I think, and ended up getting shot in the back by another older lady who was just mad. You know, this is we've become a society that is afraid to talk about that gray area.

Like I said, said, we.

Are so conditioned now to be in the black or white that when someone comes in and says, well, let's have a discussion. You just don't know how that's going to go. There's so much more that I want. I'm gonna have to have you back because I wanted to get into the documents and all of that. And I know we've run over time, but I am so I really have enjoyed having you here at Julian. It's been a great conversation and I really would like to have you back.

Sometimes I'd love to come back. And again, I'm delighted to finally meet you. As I said, I watched you a lot on the campaign trail last year and I was very impressed.

Well, thank you, and it was fascinating getting to hear your stories and your history from the Clinton administration to today. I want to get into it more, so we'll definitely do it again. Thank you, Thank you for being here and think sounds good, and thank you all for being here with us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to Tutor.

Disonpodcast dot com.

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