Is he a Marilyn Manned or a member of MS thirteen. Today we will dive into the complex and often contentious world of immigration policy and legal battles facing the Trump administration. In this episode, we sit down with wil Chamberlain, Senior Counsel with the Article three Project to impact the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia for allegations of MS thirteen ties to a web of legal maneuvers that kept him the United States.

Is he a Marilyn Manned or a member of MS thirteen. Today we will dive into the complex and often contentious world of immigration policy and legal battles facing the Trump administration. In this episode, we sit down with wil Chamberlain, Senior Counsel with the Article three Project to impact the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia for allegations of MS thirteen ties to a web of legal maneuvers that kept him the United States.

We'll explore how this.

We'll explore how this.

Case exposes deep flaws in our immigration system.

Case exposes deep flaws in our immigration system.

Join us as we discuss.

Join us as we discuss.

The lies, the lawyers, and the broader implications for justice and national security. Stay tuned for wil Chamberlain. Well, it's great to have you on the show. I wanted to have someone on to talk about this case, and then I saw your post and reached out. So I appreciate you making the time and look forward to trying to make this case a little less complicated for people.

The lies, the lawyers, and the broader implications for justice and national security. Stay tuned for wil Chamberlain. Well, it's great to have you on the show. I wanted to have someone on to talk about this case, and then I saw your post and reached out. So I appreciate you making the time and look forward to trying to make this case a little less complicated for people.

Yeah, it's good to be here with you, Lisa.

Yeah, it's good to be here with you, Lisa.

All right.

All right.

So the media is obviously in the left trying to make this a situation where Abrigo Garcia.

So the media is obviously in the left trying to make this a situation where Abrigo Garcia.

He's just a Maryland man. You know, he's a father.

He's just a Maryland man. You know, he's a father.

He's done nothing wrong, really trying to turn him into a sympathetic figure. So you posted on x the story of kill maar Abrigo Garcia is not about the wrongful deportation of a Maryland father. It's about the abuse of our immigration system by illegal migrants, the lawyers who helped them lie, and the nonprofits who agitate to keep them in the country.

He's done nothing wrong, really trying to turn him into a sympathetic figure. So you posted on x the story of kill maar Abrigo Garcia is not about the wrongful deportation of a Maryland father. It's about the abuse of our immigration system by illegal migrants, the lawyers who helped them lie, and the nonprofits who agitate to keep them in the country.

I guess walk us through. How did Garcia abuse or immigration system?

I guess walk us through. How did Garcia abuse or immigration system?

Well, well, by his own admission, he crossed into the country in twenty twelve, and he did so without any legal status. He never applied for asylum. He never you know, showed up at a port of entry. He just crossed the border and he lived in this country illegally for seven years without having any interaction with immigration authorities until in twenty nineteen he was detained aimed by ice And when he was detained, he was about to be removed, and then he decided to say, well, actually I fear persecution in my home country, so I'm going to apply for asylum, but also something called withholding of removal, which means you would not be able to remove him to his native country. At El Salvador, he was granted that withholding and then managed to stay in the country six more years despite the fact that he was still removable to any country in the world other than El Salvador. And now in twenty twenty five, he's finally being removed, and everybody's portraying it as both at you know, this massive injustice, in this massive lack of due process. Now, I mean to be clear, I think there was a procedural flaw here, as the administration admitted, given that this withholding of removal was still in legal effect, he should have been he should not have been removed to l Salvador until that was fixed. But I see the story as more one of how illegal migrants and their lawyers help exploit the system, because you know, you go back to twenty nineteen, you had the first immigration judge, you know, he's somebody he asked for bond to be released pending you know, disposition of this removal petition, and the judge said, no, there's evidence you're a remember of MS thirteen, you can't prove you're not a danger to the community. No, you're you're going to stay in jail. And so yet somebody who had already been in the country for eight seven years illegally was you know, found to out at least there's some evidence that he's an MS thirteen gang member, was somehow able to stay in the country. And the reason he was is because, you know, a few months later he had this very well developed sob story that said that if he were sent back to Al Salvador, the eighteenth Street gang would kill him because eight years previously they had threatened his mother's papoosa business. They tried to extort it, and you know, the papoosa business had closed in the in the interim. But so what he said, I'm still They're still going to try and kill me. And I mean, this was just frivolous. So it was obvious what the actual reason he was saying all this stuff was. He was about to be removed, he was about to be a father to the child of you as citizen. He wanted to stay with his family. I get it, But the law says he needs to go home, and except if he comes up with you know, except if he actually has this credible fear of being persecuted. And so he came up with a credible fear of fearing being persecuted. And my suspicion is that his lawyers told him this is the only way you can stay in the country, and then left the room and allowed him and his family to concoct this story. And yet, so to me, this is an example of how immigration lawyers and their clients make a mockery of our system. You know, it works if people are being honest, But I don't believe this person was being honest at all. I think they came up with just a ridiculous story at the time to stay in the country. But even if his story is true, in twenty twenty five, it's irrelevant because now you Bukeley has crushed the gangs and now Salvador. So even if there was this fear of persecution, that fear should have been gone. He should have gone home. But no, of course not. He was trying to stay in the country. And you know, that's exactly what American citizens elected Donald Trump's stop. We wanted legal immigrants to go home.

Well, well, by his own admission, he crossed into the country in twenty twelve, and he did so without any legal status. He never applied for asylum. He never you know, showed up at a port of entry. He just crossed the border and he lived in this country illegally for seven years without having any interaction with immigration authorities until in twenty nineteen he was detained aimed by ice And when he was detained, he was about to be removed, and then he decided to say, well, actually I fear persecution in my home country, so I'm going to apply for asylum, but also something called withholding of removal, which means you would not be able to remove him to his native country. At El Salvador, he was granted that withholding and then managed to stay in the country six more years despite the fact that he was still removable to any country in the world other than El Salvador. And now in twenty twenty five, he's finally being removed, and everybody's portraying it as both at you know, this massive injustice, in this massive lack of due process. Now, I mean to be clear, I think there was a procedural flaw here, as the administration admitted, given that this withholding of removal was still in legal effect, he should have been he should not have been removed to l Salvador until that was fixed. But I see the story as more one of how illegal migrants and their lawyers help exploit the system, because you know, you go back to twenty nineteen, you had the first immigration judge, you know, he's somebody he asked for bond to be released pending you know, disposition of this removal petition, and the judge said, no, there's evidence you're a remember of MS thirteen, you can't prove you're not a danger to the community. No, you're you're going to stay in jail. And so yet somebody who had already been in the country for eight seven years illegally was you know, found to out at least there's some evidence that he's an MS thirteen gang member, was somehow able to stay in the country. And the reason he was is because, you know, a few months later he had this very well developed sob story that said that if he were sent back to Al Salvador, the eighteenth Street gang would kill him because eight years previously they had threatened his mother's papoosa business. They tried to extort it, and you know, the papoosa business had closed in the in the interim. But so what he said, I'm still They're still going to try and kill me. And I mean, this was just frivolous. So it was obvious what the actual reason he was saying all this stuff was. He was about to be removed, he was about to be a father to the child of you as citizen. He wanted to stay with his family. I get it, But the law says he needs to go home, and except if he comes up with you know, except if he actually has this credible fear of being persecuted. And so he came up with a credible fear of fearing being persecuted. And my suspicion is that his lawyers told him this is the only way you can stay in the country, and then left the room and allowed him and his family to concoct this story. And yet, so to me, this is an example of how immigration lawyers and their clients make a mockery of our system. You know, it works if people are being honest, But I don't believe this person was being honest at all. I think they came up with just a ridiculous story at the time to stay in the country. But even if his story is true, in twenty twenty five, it's irrelevant because now you Bukeley has crushed the gangs and now Salvador. So even if there was this fear of persecution, that fear should have been gone. He should have gone home. But no, of course not. He was trying to stay in the country. And you know, that's exactly what American citizens elected Donald Trump's stop. We wanted legal immigrants to go home.

You know. And we know that this credible fear narrative with asylum seekers is often abused. Do do we know how immigration judges determine if the individual has a true.

You know. And we know that this credible fear narrative with asylum seekers is often abused. Do do we know how immigration judges determine if the individual has a true.

Credible fear or not.

Credible fear or not.

I mean, it's literally if I read this case. Right in the law, as stated by the immigration judge, it's just literally up to the judge. The judge can make any kind of credibility determination that they want. And the remarkable thing is the judge explains that, you know, these migrants, they don't obviously they say they don't have any written evidence. Necessarily or because you know, the events leading to the fear of persecution happened in a foreign country, they're not expected to provide any evidence. So it's literally just if you were trying to figure out what is the evidence that Abrego Garcia presented to the immigration judge, it's just his own testimony and affidavits from his family. And the obvious conclusion there is well, of course his family would lie to the court in order to keep him in the country. Right, these people, you know, you start with the presumption this guy didn't have a lot of respect for our laws in the first instance, because he crossed illegally and stayed here illegally for eight years, seven years. Why are we treating his testimony to you know, avoid deportation as credible. I don't know, but the fact that our system, in our system, you can communicate this credible fear of persecution with nothing more than the testimony of you and your family. Well, that's ridiculous. I'm sorry. You should go home, And if you wanted to make these claims, you should have made them immediately when you got here.

I mean, it's literally if I read this case. Right in the law, as stated by the immigration judge, it's just literally up to the judge. The judge can make any kind of credibility determination that they want. And the remarkable thing is the judge explains that, you know, these migrants, they don't obviously they say they don't have any written evidence. Necessarily or because you know, the events leading to the fear of persecution happened in a foreign country, they're not expected to provide any evidence. So it's literally just if you were trying to figure out what is the evidence that Abrego Garcia presented to the immigration judge, it's just his own testimony and affidavits from his family. And the obvious conclusion there is well, of course his family would lie to the court in order to keep him in the country. Right, these people, you know, you start with the presumption this guy didn't have a lot of respect for our laws in the first instance, because he crossed illegally and stayed here illegally for eight years, seven years. Why are we treating his testimony to you know, avoid deportation as credible. I don't know, but the fact that our system, in our system, you can communicate this credible fear of persecution with nothing more than the testimony of you and your family. Well, that's ridiculous. I'm sorry. You should go home, And if you wanted to make these claims, you should have made them immediately when you got here.

Well yeah, I was going to say, I mean, we're trusting the word of someone who's already abused or laws and you know, had no regard for them to begin with.

Well yeah, I was going to say, I mean, we're trusting the word of someone who's already abused or laws and you know, had no regard for them to begin with.

We've got more with will.

We've got more with will.

But first, as you celebrate this holy season, let's take a moment to reflect on God's creation you. In Psalms, we learned that God knit you together in your mother's womb. His eyes saw your unformed body. He saw who you were created to be before.

But first, as you celebrate this holy season, let's take a moment to reflect on God's creation you. In Psalms, we learned that God knit you together in your mother's womb. His eyes saw your unformed body. He saw who you were created to be before.

You became you.

You became you.

Preborn Ministry is once to remind you that each one of you is made in the image of God, and life is sacred.

Preborn Ministry is once to remind you that each one of you is made in the image of God, and life is sacred.

Life is eternal.

Life is eternal.

You may have come to Earth as an unplanned pregnancy, but whether planned or unplanned, your life is value and every day of your.

You may have come to Earth as an unplanned pregnancy, but whether planned or unplanned, your life is value and every day of your.

Life is ordained by God.

Life is ordained by God.

Please take a moment today to thank God for life, and we invite you to remember babies in their mother's wombs. Their lives count two last year alone. Preborn's Network of clinics rescued over sixty seven thousand babies from abortion. Your tax deductible donation of twenty eight dollars sponsors one ultrasound and doubles a baby's chance at life. How many babies can you save? Please donate your best gift today. Just style pound two fifty and say the keyword baby. That's pound two fifty baby. Or go to preborn dot com slash booth that's preborn dot com slash booth boo tg sponsored by Preborn. Now, the allegation is that he had ties or you know, has ties to MS thirteen. What evidence is there for that is that relevant to this?

Please take a moment today to thank God for life, and we invite you to remember babies in their mother's wombs. Their lives count two last year alone. Preborn's Network of clinics rescued over sixty seven thousand babies from abortion. Your tax deductible donation of twenty eight dollars sponsors one ultrasound and doubles a baby's chance at life. How many babies can you save? Please donate your best gift today. Just style pound two fifty and say the keyword baby. That's pound two fifty baby. Or go to preborn dot com slash booth that's preborn dot com slash booth boo tg sponsored by Preborn. Now, the allegation is that he had ties or you know, has ties to MS thirteen. What evidence is there for that is that relevant to this?

So it's not exactly clear what evidence was that we have some idea there's there's because we have to go all the way back to the twenty nineteen immigration bond hearing, you know, which we've only seen a few a little bit of the records of. But it looks like that judge had in front of them both some sort of gang sheet like an identify vcation with the police that said this person was MS thirteen, along with testimony from sort of some sort of confidential informant, and the idea that he was wearing a parel that was aligned with MS thirteen. But we don't know that that's all the evidence. Like, let's that's literally what is mentioned in a two page immigration judge hearing. There might well be more. It's a little bit rich that everybody is just saying there's no evidence. Well, clearly there's not no evidence. This guy was found by an immigrant judge to be a verified member of MS thirteen, and that finding was upheld on appeal. And the people claiming either there's no evidence or this is wrong are just his lawyers. They're just his lawyers putting out press releases or filing up blate saying oh, this was nonsense, he's not really MS thirteen. Well, it's like that hasn't been tested. Now, granted, I think you know, we haven't. It hasn't been proven in a court beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a member of MS thirteen. But that's not the relevant standard because the question is what actually matters here for the purposes of whether or not this guy should be removed. Well, the MS thirteen could matter in the sense that if he is actually an MS thirteen member, then he's ineligible for withholding of removal. And so could have That would be one way that the administration could go to the immigration judge and say, you need to lift this guy's withholding of removal. But there's other ways to do that. As discussed, there's no real fear of persecution in l Salador anymore because it's now one of the safest countries in the Western Hemisphere. The real reason that he needs to be deportant is because he's an illegal alien or he was an illegal alien in our country. That was all that was needed from the get go, Like there's a red herring that the you know, the left media puts out there that it's like, well, he has no criminal record, so he's an illegal alien in our country. You don't have a right to be here. You could be removed period.

So it's not exactly clear what evidence was that we have some idea there's there's because we have to go all the way back to the twenty nineteen immigration bond hearing, you know, which we've only seen a few a little bit of the records of. But it looks like that judge had in front of them both some sort of gang sheet like an identify vcation with the police that said this person was MS thirteen, along with testimony from sort of some sort of confidential informant, and the idea that he was wearing a parel that was aligned with MS thirteen. But we don't know that that's all the evidence. Like, let's that's literally what is mentioned in a two page immigration judge hearing. There might well be more. It's a little bit rich that everybody is just saying there's no evidence. Well, clearly there's not no evidence. This guy was found by an immigrant judge to be a verified member of MS thirteen, and that finding was upheld on appeal. And the people claiming either there's no evidence or this is wrong are just his lawyers. They're just his lawyers putting out press releases or filing up blate saying oh, this was nonsense, he's not really MS thirteen. Well, it's like that hasn't been tested. Now, granted, I think you know, we haven't. It hasn't been proven in a court beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a member of MS thirteen. But that's not the relevant standard because the question is what actually matters here for the purposes of whether or not this guy should be removed. Well, the MS thirteen could matter in the sense that if he is actually an MS thirteen member, then he's ineligible for withholding of removal. And so could have That would be one way that the administration could go to the immigration judge and say, you need to lift this guy's withholding of removal. But there's other ways to do that. As discussed, there's no real fear of persecution in l Salador anymore because it's now one of the safest countries in the Western Hemisphere. The real reason that he needs to be deportant is because he's an illegal alien or he was an illegal alien in our country. That was all that was needed from the get go, Like there's a red herring that the you know, the left media puts out there that it's like, well, he has no criminal record, so he's an illegal alien in our country. You don't have a right to be here. You could be removed period.

Well, I think it sort of underscores the different way that we view immigration between the parties, right because the left clearly they don't believe that coming into the country illegally is grounds for removal, right like, they're perfectly fine with it, whereas obviously we are not as Republicans, you know. And it's interesting because during the first Trump administration, the argument for the left or from the left was that you know, the Trump administration was inhumane.

Well, I think it sort of underscores the different way that we view immigration between the parties, right because the left clearly they don't believe that coming into the country illegally is grounds for removal, right like, they're perfectly fine with it, whereas obviously we are not as Republicans, you know. And it's interesting because during the first Trump administration, the argument for the left or from the left was that you know, the Trump administration was inhumane.

Because of family separation. I feel like that was probably.

Because of family separation. I feel like that was probably.

Like a stronger political argument to make, you know, like oh children, you know. And now it seems like they are defending you know, potential prolomas sympathizers and you know, maybe.

Like a stronger political argument to make, you know, like oh children, you know. And now it seems like they are defending you know, potential prolomas sympathizers and you know, maybe.

AMMA thirteen members and you know, and so I wonder what the political fallout, you know.

AMMA thirteen members and you know, and so I wonder what the political fallout, you know.

I think that's also why they're trying to add this sympathetic you know, Maryland father, you know, kind of like trying to just to you know, add some of these more like sympathetic descriptive words attached.

I think that's also why they're trying to add this sympathetic you know, Maryland father, you know, kind of like trying to just to you know, add some of these more like sympathetic descriptive words attached.

To the guy.

To the guy.

But you know, it's an interesting I don't know politically how this will play out for them.

But you know, it's an interesting I don't know politically how this will play out for them.

Yeah, No, I agree with that. I think that it's a president Trump got elected running on a platform of mass deportation, and the American public in puls for obviously first they elected him, but also in polls they indicated that they support mass deportation. And I don't think the Democratic Party has got it through its head that you shouldn't be trying to make illegal aliens who abused our system into standard bearers for your party. And that's what they're doing. Both in this I mean, these are I was thinking about it. Somebody asked, like, why why is the Democrat Party doing this? And it's just because they're dominated by the sort of rook when professional managerial class journalists types, and you know, for these people, I mean, the victims of murder by legal aliens are irrelevant and annoying. But you know, the moment they can advocate on behalf of somebody who's in our country illegally, or somebody who's advocating on behalf of terrorist groups in Israel, they jump at it. It could because that's their mileu for whatever reason. And I think it's just if they keep making this mistake. And you know, there's the funny thing is they're in much better you know, the economy's got issues right now, Like I think Trump's going to pull it out with these troiffs. But you know that if I were, you know, a dispassionate political consultant advising the Democrats, I'd be like, we don't want to be talking about this. People hate this. We want to be talking about the economy in tariffs and how everything's getting more expensive.

Yeah, No, I agree with that. I think that it's a president Trump got elected running on a platform of mass deportation, and the American public in puls for obviously first they elected him, but also in polls they indicated that they support mass deportation. And I don't think the Democratic Party has got it through its head that you shouldn't be trying to make illegal aliens who abused our system into standard bearers for your party. And that's what they're doing. Both in this I mean, these are I was thinking about it. Somebody asked, like, why why is the Democrat Party doing this? And it's just because they're dominated by the sort of rook when professional managerial class journalists types, and you know, for these people, I mean, the victims of murder by legal aliens are irrelevant and annoying. But you know, the moment they can advocate on behalf of somebody who's in our country illegally, or somebody who's advocating on behalf of terrorist groups in Israel, they jump at it. It could because that's their mileu for whatever reason. And I think it's just if they keep making this mistake. And you know, there's the funny thing is they're in much better you know, the economy's got issues right now, Like I think Trump's going to pull it out with these troiffs. But you know that if I were, you know, a dispassionate political consultant advising the Democrats, I'd be like, we don't want to be talking about this. People hate this. We want to be talking about the economy in tariffs and how everything's getting more expensive.

And yet they're not well, you know, and you even have Democrats like Marilynd Senate Democrat Chris van Holland saying that you know he's going to organize a codell to elsum.

And yet they're not well, you know, and you even have Democrats like Marilynd Senate Democrat Chris van Holland saying that you know he's going to organize a codell to elsum.

Bukeley has the chance to do the funniest thing.

Bukeley has the chance to do the funniest thing.

Just not let him in.

Just not let him in.

No, just arrest them and throw him in jail time. I'm kidding, no, I but it's.

No, just arrest them and throw him in jail time. I'm kidding, no, I but it's.

Like that, you know, if it is a codel, that's like on us right, that's taxpayer funded resources for them to go make the argument and to make a spectacle out of a potential MS thirteen member and arguing for his return, which you know, to the broader point politically, it just does not seem like, you know, that's I.

Like that, you know, if it is a codel, that's like on us right, that's taxpayer funded resources for them to go make the argument and to make a spectacle out of a potential MS thirteen member and arguing for his return, which you know, to the broader point politically, it just does not seem like, you know, that's I.

Think the story never ends with him coming back because he has no illegal status in the United States. If you know, they want to say, well, he's not an MS thirteen member and we need to give him more due process. It's like, Okay, guess what happens. Bookeley releases him, He gets flown back to the United States, put right back into an IC detention center, and we go through the process and he'll get removed because the basis on which he got is withholding of removal. In El salvad Or, is this fear of the Eighteenth Street Gang extorting his mom's capoosa business. While the Eighteenth Street Gang is defeated, so you don't have any basis for it anymore. You never had legal status in the United States. You're going home, so it always ends up with him back in El Salvador.

Think the story never ends with him coming back because he has no illegal status in the United States. If you know, they want to say, well, he's not an MS thirteen member and we need to give him more due process. It's like, Okay, guess what happens. Bookeley releases him, He gets flown back to the United States, put right back into an IC detention center, and we go through the process and he'll get removed because the basis on which he got is withholding of removal. In El salvad Or, is this fear of the Eighteenth Street Gang extorting his mom's capoosa business. While the Eighteenth Street Gang is defeated, so you don't have any basis for it anymore. You never had legal status in the United States. You're going home, so it always ends up with him back in El Salvador.

Yeah, the Supreme Court's ruling to facilitate but not effectuate Gersia's return. What's the importance in the differentiation between those two words, and what exactly did the Supreme Court say with this case.

Yeah, the Supreme Court's ruling to facilitate but not effectuate Gersia's return. What's the importance in the differentiation between those two words, and what exactly did the Supreme Court say with this case.

Well, honestly, the Supreme Court was pretty vague, but this is my understanding on it based on reading the opinion and a lot of the briefing and the underlying cases. So there's been plenty of times where ice has been ordered to facilitate the entry of the legal aliens back into the country, or aliens rather back into the country so that they can get so that there could be further immigration proceedings for whatever reason that's happened in the past. What that's meant is you need to get rid of the obstacles, the United States side obstacles in the way of this person coming back to the country. Right, there's not an assumption that the government should go, you know actively. You know that the court has the right to order the government to go engage in diplomacy. The president is the sole diplomatic organ of the United States. And so when this District Court put in place in order that said facilitate and effectuate the return of a Brigo Garcia, Interestingly, like the lawyers for Brigo Garcia knew. I haven't talked to them, but they knew that this was too broad an order because when they were arguing this to the Court of Appeals, they were saying, oh, look at all these cases saying that ice can must facilitate the return of an alien. They knew that there's a difference between those two things, because to facilitate is to make something easier, but to effectuate is to make it happen, right, to bring the end result about, And that's what the Supreme Court objected to. They agree that, you know, the court obviously had the ability to order the to facilitate his return, to take care of obstacles on its own end, because the administration itself admitted that the deportation was administrative error, but they didn't have the right to just order the president to engage in diplomacy. And so the Supreme Court was nice and told the district judge, you need to clarify your order and ensure that you give due deference to the president's Article two authorities. It doesn't look like this this district judge, Judges Ennis did that. But that's that's the difference between facilitate and effectuate. Facilitate is to merely, in this context means to simply remove obstacles on your end, whereas to effectuate means to actively bring about.

Well, honestly, the Supreme Court was pretty vague, but this is my understanding on it based on reading the opinion and a lot of the briefing and the underlying cases. So there's been plenty of times where ice has been ordered to facilitate the entry of the legal aliens back into the country, or aliens rather back into the country so that they can get so that there could be further immigration proceedings for whatever reason that's happened in the past. What that's meant is you need to get rid of the obstacles, the United States side obstacles in the way of this person coming back to the country. Right, there's not an assumption that the government should go, you know actively. You know that the court has the right to order the government to go engage in diplomacy. The president is the sole diplomatic organ of the United States. And so when this District Court put in place in order that said facilitate and effectuate the return of a Brigo Garcia, Interestingly, like the lawyers for Brigo Garcia knew. I haven't talked to them, but they knew that this was too broad an order because when they were arguing this to the Court of Appeals, they were saying, oh, look at all these cases saying that ice can must facilitate the return of an alien. They knew that there's a difference between those two things, because to facilitate is to make something easier, but to effectuate is to make it happen, right, to bring the end result about, And that's what the Supreme Court objected to. They agree that, you know, the court obviously had the ability to order the to facilitate his return, to take care of obstacles on its own end, because the administration itself admitted that the deportation was administrative error, but they didn't have the right to just order the president to engage in diplomacy. And so the Supreme Court was nice and told the district judge, you need to clarify your order and ensure that you give due deference to the president's Article two authorities. It doesn't look like this this district judge, Judges Ennis did that. But that's that's the difference between facilitate and effectuate. Facilitate is to merely, in this context means to simply remove obstacles on your end, whereas to effectuate means to actively bring about.

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More with will.

More with will.

On the other side, the only place I don't agree with the Trump administration is that President Trump has said that he wants to send you as citizen to commit fund.

On the other side, the only place I don't agree with the Trump administration is that President Trump has said that he wants to send you as citizen to commit fund.

Like crimes to l Salvador.

Like crimes to l Salvador.

And obviously we can see how that becomes a real slippery slope, particularly during COVID when you know, people like me didn't get the COVID vaccine, and like nearly half of Democrats wanted to send us to government camps, so you know, like and now the left views basically all of us who have supported Trump, as you know, more or less terrorists. So I worry about that and what that would mean for us if we lose power or when you know, we inevitably lose power because it bounces back and forth between the parties and it will continue to do so for the rest of American history.

And obviously we can see how that becomes a real slippery slope, particularly during COVID when you know, people like me didn't get the COVID vaccine, and like nearly half of Democrats wanted to send us to government camps, so you know, like and now the left views basically all of us who have supported Trump, as you know, more or less terrorists. So I worry about that and what that would mean for us if we lose power or when you know, we inevitably lose power because it bounces back and forth between the parties and it will continue to do so for the rest of American history.

So, uh, like, yeah, let's not I'm totally fine with what.

So, uh, like, yeah, let's not I'm totally fine with what.

He's doing with legal aliens, you know, and people who don't deserve to be in our country.

He's doing with legal aliens, you know, and people who don't deserve to be in our country.

But like, I don't think we go there with citizens.

But like, I don't think we go there with citizens.

I completely agree, and I think that's ultimately where the president will end up. I think, you know, if we need, if we want to deal with if we have an issue with under incarceration in our own country, which we kind of do, there's there's there's there's more criminals that need to be incarcerated, but we can just build more jails for our own citizens. But I agree with you, I don't I think I don't. I don't understand what complaint that then Whalen's you know trenda iragual gang members have They never had a right to be in our country in the first instance. And really, I mean this is all a product of the fact that the Venezuelan government wouldn't accept their citizens being repatriated. It's like, well, okay, then We're going to find another place to send them to. And I think one of the things that Trump administration does understand is the need for deterrence, is the need to deter the entry of illegal aliens. And you know, I've seen a lot of people be very critical of Christy Nome and her photo opsits at the El Salvador, in prison or wherever else. The point of all this is the message isn't for us, the messages for illegal migrants. We want to make clear to them that if you come to this country legally, you will be removed and it probably won't be very nice. And that's why we've seen I legal immigration go down ninety five percent year over year illegal crossings. It's a real accomplishment of the administration. I think they need to keep it up.

I completely agree, and I think that's ultimately where the president will end up. I think, you know, if we need, if we want to deal with if we have an issue with under incarceration in our own country, which we kind of do, there's there's there's there's more criminals that need to be incarcerated, but we can just build more jails for our own citizens. But I agree with you, I don't I think I don't. I don't understand what complaint that then Whalen's you know trenda iragual gang members have They never had a right to be in our country in the first instance. And really, I mean this is all a product of the fact that the Venezuelan government wouldn't accept their citizens being repatriated. It's like, well, okay, then We're going to find another place to send them to. And I think one of the things that Trump administration does understand is the need for deterrence, is the need to deter the entry of illegal aliens. And you know, I've seen a lot of people be very critical of Christy Nome and her photo opsits at the El Salvador, in prison or wherever else. The point of all this is the message isn't for us, the messages for illegal migrants. We want to make clear to them that if you come to this country legally, you will be removed and it probably won't be very nice. And that's why we've seen I legal immigration go down ninety five percent year over year illegal crossings. It's a real accomplishment of the administration. I think they need to keep it up.

I mean, she did to kill dogs, so I guess you know, there's credible fear for the illegal aliens that they maybe that was.

I mean, she did to kill dogs, so I guess you know, there's credible fear for the illegal aliens that they maybe that was.

The reason she was selected. I was like, I thought her political career was as dead as that dog, but apparently not. And maybe maybe that's what you need to do. You need to you know, like what if you if we cross the border illegally, maybe what will happen to us, is what happened to the dog.

The reason she was selected. I was like, I thought her political career was as dead as that dog, but apparently not. And maybe maybe that's what you need to do. You need to you know, like what if you if we cross the border illegally, maybe what will happen to us, is what happened to the dog.

I don't know. If you can kill a cute little dog, then I guess anything's fair.

I don't know. If you can kill a cute little dog, then I guess anything's fair.

Game at that point.

Game at that point.

So I don't know if I want to Well to your point about the Venezuelans. I've made this point on TV as well, when people are like, well, why are we sending them to El Salvador.

So I don't know if I want to Well to your point about the Venezuelans. I've made this point on TV as well, when people are like, well, why are we sending them to El Salvador.

Like this is awful?

Like this is awful?

I get it, But like a lot of these countries, and I know we reached to deal with Venezuela at the end of March to repatriate, you know, some of these migrants and for them to finally take some people back. But a lot of these countries, who is going to want to take back Ms thirteen and trende Aragua gang members or murders or rapists. And so that's the challenge that President Trump is facing when he's trying to do these mass deportations.

I get it, But like a lot of these countries, and I know we reached to deal with Venezuela at the end of March to repatriate, you know, some of these migrants and for them to finally take some people back. But a lot of these countries, who is going to want to take back Ms thirteen and trende Aragua gang members or murders or rapists. And so that's the challenge that President Trump is facing when he's trying to do these mass deportations.

Particularly with the worst of the worst.

Particularly with the worst of the worst.

Is you know, these countries aren't gonna want to take them back.

Is you know, these countries aren't gonna want to take them back.

Right And I mean part this point with Trender Rogwitz the reason they were you know how this Alien Enemies Act proclamation is that it's pretty clear that the it's the Venezuelan government sent them here. That this wasn't unintentional. They sent a gang into our country to you know, make mischief and disrupt things. So yeah, no, of course they're not trying to take them back. Now with m S. Thirteen, it's actually much simpler. You know, Naibukeli is a really good ally, and he wants to take them and imprison him in them in his own jail, and that's, you know, really what this is all about.

Right And I mean part this point with Trender Rogwitz the reason they were you know how this Alien Enemies Act proclamation is that it's pretty clear that the it's the Venezuelan government sent them here. That this wasn't unintentional. They sent a gang into our country to you know, make mischief and disrupt things. So yeah, no, of course they're not trying to take them back. Now with m S. Thirteen, it's actually much simpler. You know, Naibukeli is a really good ally, and he wants to take them and imprison him in them in his own jail, and that's, you know, really what this is all about.

What do you make of the Trump Administration's used to the Alien Enemies Act.

What do you make of the Trump Administration's used to the Alien Enemies Act.

The Alien Enemies Act. I think it's probably not going to be that much of an increase in efficiency over the normal immigration process because I think the Supreme Court and other judges agree that while there's not, you know, any judicial role to remove to re sorry to review the president's decision that there's been a war or present predatory incursion, they still have the right to review whether somebody individually is in the class of people that are covered by the Alien Enemy Zach. So I'm not sure it actually speeds things up more than a standard issue deportation proceeding, given what the Supreme Court is doing. But I my view is I'm perfectly fine with it in the sense that President Biden launched a mass invasion of illegal aliens who are into our country. That's why there is a mass deportation. I think the Trump administration should be using every tool it's it's at its disposal to deport these people.

The Alien Enemies Act. I think it's probably not going to be that much of an increase in efficiency over the normal immigration process because I think the Supreme Court and other judges agree that while there's not, you know, any judicial role to remove to re sorry to review the president's decision that there's been a war or present predatory incursion, they still have the right to review whether somebody individually is in the class of people that are covered by the Alien Enemy Zach. So I'm not sure it actually speeds things up more than a standard issue deportation proceeding, given what the Supreme Court is doing. But I my view is I'm perfectly fine with it in the sense that President Biden launched a mass invasion of illegal aliens who are into our country. That's why there is a mass deportation. I think the Trump administration should be using every tool it's it's at its disposal to deport these people.

I agree.

I agree.

And the American people that's what they wanted.

And the American people that's what they wanted.

They voted for.

They voted for.

It was the second most important issue and President Trump won the popular vote. So Will Chamberlain, senior counsel at the Article three Project, appreciate your time.

It was the second most important issue and President Trump won the popular vote. So Will Chamberlain, senior counsel at the Article three Project, appreciate your time.

Thank you for breaking this down for us. It was very helpful, all right.

Thank you for breaking this down for us. It was very helpful, all right.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

That was Will Chamberlain, Senior counsel at the Article three Project. Appreciate him for making the time. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday.

That was Will Chamberlain, Senior counsel at the Article three Project. Appreciate him for making the time. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday.

But you can listen throughout the week until next time.

But you can listen throughout the week until next time.