02: Wrong Decision

Published Jun 30, 2024, 2:01 PM

Former Constable Larry Blandford will never forget the night Amy died, saying he never believed she killed herself. Now retired, he reveals what really happened and how the mishandling of her death continues to haunt those involved.

This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.

Panic.

I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead?

Eight Confusion World about five minutes, say sit not to suicide one hundred percent.

This is emersing. What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? The Truth About Amy?

Episode two.

I'm Liam Bartlett and.

I'm Alison Sandy.

At the next intersection, turn left.

It's a sunny still day as we head to Serpentine on the way to the house where Amy Wensley died.

Turnal left.

It rained the day before, so there's a heavy smell of petrocore, a unique earthy scent mixed with the rich eucalyptus so abundant in Australian flora. This area is alive with wildlife and despite the rain, the landscape is still dry dotted with autumn colored trees, green, yellow, and a rusty red. The semi rural estate owned by Robert Simmons, comprises more than two hundred thousand square meetings or about twenty hectares, and there's a long driveway heading up to the impressive pale yellow weatherboard, six bedroom, three bathroom, two story home. There's a dam, a riding arena for horses, and of course, a large industrial shed just next door to the prefabricated house where Amy lived with her daughters and David Simmons back in twenty fourteen. It's only about the size of a two bedroom unit, and Mark, a kind octogenarian who now lives there, agrees to take us on a quick tour. This is beautiful, he tells Allison how much he loves the location, especially being so close to the rest of his family.

Yeah, it's a lovely little spot though, like it looks good.

When you walk in the back door, there's a toilet on the right and a bathroom to the left. Straight ahead is the kitchen, which opens out to the dining and living room. After the bathroom is a small hallway leading to two bedrooms, with the master bedroom on the right. It's now Mark's bedroom and set out very similarly to how it looked when Amy was there, a queen size bed taking up most of the space, with a bedside table either side, a window to the right upon entry, and in front of the bed is a large built in wardrobe with mirror doors. Next to the wardrobe behind the door is where Amy's body was found. Allison is surprised at how tiny the area is.

Is very tight and I imagine the bed would have been very similar sort of way, because she was that's right, yeah, yeah, guns, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Four tens only a small book. The closure range is blood illegal.

Mark shows Alice and the large shed next door, where a lot of his belongings are held, including books and old records. He jokes about having spent a fair bit of time there, especially when his late wife got annoyed with him.

Too used to tell them clear off to.

The big spider up there, just sort of yeah, and how long ago did your wife die?

About three months ago?

Now.

Mark says he met David Simmons once became mere one.

Hole.

We ate and he keep saying me back tires, back to I said no, I said, I'll see it's not go And in the end Jesse.

Was with me. Mark is referring to one of his grandsons who also lives on the estate.

All he was trying to do was coveras in gravel. He hit the frog and spun it around and gravel went everywhere. But I said, there's another hells up the top of you now, he said, I know he used to have in Libya, so that was him. I've had some really strange people coming here, really have. And apparently the superintendent that came here to investigate in apparently wanted to go on Holy so he didn't want to know about Heim, so he just put it down as his suicide. Yeah, didn't need an investigating but they reckoned the angle.

She was shot out.

She couldn't have done it herself.

The estake was sold in twenty sixteen for one point seven million dollars. There were two police investigations into Amy's death prior to the inquest in twenty twenty one. One was an investigation by the Major Crime Squad in twenty fourteen and the other by the Cold Case Homicide Squad in twenty eighteen. In its investigation, Major Crime quickly concluded there was no criminality identified and no evidence to identify the involvement of another person. The investigation by Cold Case, called Operation Mix, was more thorough and involved interviews with sixty two people, of which thirty seven witness statements were obtained. Now, between the statements given to Major Crime Cold Case and the witnesses that testified at the inquest, there were a lot of discrepancies, some minor, some major, which we will discuss in more detail throughout this podcast, but none of them, not one of them, were considered important by officers assigned to review the case. In its final report, Cold Case attributes inconsistencies from Price and Simmons to trauma, alcohol consumption or both. They also concluded there was quote insufficient evidence to substantiate the involvement of another person in Amy's death. Their attitude is certainly at odds with that of the uniformed officers who were first on the scene. One of those officers, although no longer in the police force, was Larry Blandford. Larry tells me he'll never forget when he first saw Amy's body. Obviously, when this goes to air, it'll be ten years. Ten years is a long time. Do you feel any differently today than you did ten years ago.

I made a pledge to Aimy on that fatal night, I said the words out loud to her, I'm sorry for what's happened to you, Sis. We will get to the bottom of it.

You said that to her in the bedroom.

I said that to her in the bedroom, and I felt a little bit guilty by leaving the room and not being with her.

Why did you say that? Why did you feel compelled to say that?

Because because the evidence I gained from that room, it was obvious to me that she didn't shoot herself. So someone's got to be accountable for that action.

It's almost a fatherly thing to say, isn't it.

Yeah, I probably is. Yeah. I was sixty at that time, so you know, I wasn't a young cop. I got in it fifty four, and at this time I was about sixty, and I had a lot of life experience and done a lot of things abattoir and all the other stuff that I've done.

Seen a few things.

Yeah, been on my own affair bit as well, And you know I have to. When you're on your own, you have to be accurate. You have to be accurate, and everything you do you're driving your vehicle, maintenance, your level, a few extra batteries because you're miles from anywhere.

So detail is important.

Detail is important.

Yes, What was your rank and position on the day Amy died?

I was first class Constable, soon to be Senior Connie.

And are those events still fresh and clear in your mind? Larry? Is that fair to say?

Yeah? It was just like like I've been through it that many times in my head. I sort of think about it a fair bit, and it's just like it happened yesterday, which to me is pretty sad because I haven't been able to move on now. I was speaking to a Constable Dixon about two years ago, and she says, I think you need help, you need counseling, And I said to her, No, I don't. I know what I'm thinking. I know what I'm talking about.

Constable Dixon was one of the other uniformed officers, and there was also Constable Roberts.

Yeah, it was Senior Connie Ian Roberts. Yeah, good Blake, good operator.

Where were you and how were you told to attend that event?

It was start of the shift, so we were in the office. Obviously, we were on CAD the Tartess Information Service. Who who knows our PD numbers, radio numbers and our mobile phone AI police issued mobile phone?

So how does this work? All three of you asked to attend? Were they?

Well, we were three up. One of us may stay behind to do a bit of paperwork while they catch up. The other two will go out and do a job if there's a job. But at this time it seemed it was urgent, so all three of us jumped in the car.

And how did that call come in? What was the nature of it? Did you get a notification of a shooting or it.

Comes in by radio? Juliet one O one, we require you to attend an address in Serpentine would have been that. And then when you jump into the car, we checked the Tartness and that gives you the job. What's actually happened at that time and a location?

And what was the detail at that story? Which can you remember?

Yeah, a woman has been shot with a shotgun. That was virtually all it was.

Larry, can you take us through what happened when you got there, the moment you got there.

The moment we pulled up at the driveway. Gareth Price was sitting on the fence, rail and a bloke I now known to be Robert Simmons was standing by the gate.

David Simmons father, Yeah, Robert Simmons, Yeah, did you know Gareth Price?

Yes. I've had dealings with Gareth before. He's always to me, he's always been a pretty nice sort of bloke. I've never had any trouble with him, even though that i've I had arrested him in the past. And I actually met him with his friend somewhere and I said the words Gareth Edward told Price, and his mates all laughed because I knew his name.

Yeah.

So we're at the gate and I said what's going on? And Robert Simmons says there's been a shooting. Gareth would be the best person to talk to. So I said, Gareth, what's going on?

Mate?

And he said, ah, my friend's partner is up in the house and she committed suicide. And at that time I thought, well, have you been schooled to say that, because you know you're illiterate. It's a big word. So it's my partner has committed suicide. If he was in school, he just would have said my partner's been shot.

So that immediately sprang to your mind.

Sprang to my mind that there's better be on me toes here, you know, And.

Because you knew him previously, and he knew his level of intellect.

Yeah, when I interviewed he months before, his mother was there as the interpreter because he couldn't read, or he doesn't know how to read, which is it's not a fault. But and she was also there too as his interview friend.

And that's why that word suicide sort of stuck out for you. Then what happened.

I said to the fellas, say, at the gate, we're going up. So I and Pep and I went up the top Ian went into the shed and I went into the house. I think Pep came in too. And I didn't really want to Pep to see what I saw, but I says, oh, you don't have to stay in here. Anyway, she did her a little bit for the investigation.

You didn't know at the stage when you went through that front door. I mean it was a tiny house, but you didn't know which room Amy was in.

No, I didn't have a clue. You go from the back verandah into the kitchen, and there's a hallway off to the left and there's a bathroom to your right, and after that is a bedroom.

And how did you discover her?

That's probably the first door I pushed open, and there was something obstructing the door, as all evidence shows that her leg was pushing against the door. I looked around the corner and came into the room, and I sort of I wasn't shocked, but I was sort of alert to the fact that this is this is not right. I saw a blue towel over her head, and I never looked under that towel. And then there was a firearm about a meter away and four to ten shotgun, double barrel, side by side.

The gun was about a meter away on the floor. On the floor, yep. So you had squeezed through the door because her leg, one of her legs, was obstructing the door.

Yeah, as I pushed through like a bit of a bull because I didn't know this person needed medical help or what.

And you didn't know what the obstruction was.

No, So when I got into the room and sort of that out and it came in as well.

So effectively she was behind the door, sort of wedged behind the door.

Yeah. Well, there's a wardrobe in the room. There's a wardrobe to the right. The door opens into a recess. Yes, so it doesn't hit the wardrobe door. And in that recess, once the door is closed, there is a quite a substantial little recess there and that's where she was laying.

You say she had a blue towel on her head, Larry, covering her face? Yep, her head. How did the blue towel get put on her head?

What I learned later is that Gareth Price put the towel on her head.

He put the towel on her head. Yes, Why did he do that?

Oh? I would say out of respect. You know, he's not a disrespectful person and it would have been a shock to him.

Pausing here before speaking to Larry, we caught up with Gareth Price at his home, which you'll hear in a later episode. In that interview and all the others he's given since Amy's death, Price has never deviated from his description of the position of the gun when he first walked into the bedroom.

He's told us that when he discovered her, the gun was on her lap, Yes, and sort of down her legs, so to speak. Did he remove the gun and put it on the floor.

Yeah, he did make admissions that he removed the firearm from her lap and put it about a meter away. So that's the time I saw it at that location, at that position.

Why would you touch the gun?

Not sure, mate. There's a few things that you shouldn't do, and that's probably one of them. It's it's a situation that has to be has to be believed at the time, you know, because there's no cover up from the attending police officers. You know.

David Simmons father Robert, has also given evidence that he unloaded that gun. So he's picked the gun up and unloaded the spent cartridge, put it on a bedside table. Why would you do that?

That's another question. I haven't got a crystal ball. I can't answer that. But there was a live cartridge and a spent cartridge on the bedside table, which was probably about three three and a half meters from aim.

Now, as a police officer, did those actions strike you as strange?

Oh for sure.

Yeah.

At that time I just saw a mouth yep, I know. I went over and had a look, and I spent a few bit of time in the room looking in the cupboard, looking at all unsecured ammunition and rifles and bits and pieces laying around, so you know, I formed an opinion that it's it was it suicide. And as I looked at Amy, there was blood spatter on the walls and it was probably about as high as a chair, the first big blood spatter, and I thought, well, that would mean that she's been pegged on the way down. She was sitting on her right hand and she was right handed, so if she's going down, forced to go down, she'd use her right hand to push against the wall to go to the ground. And then she had gun residue on her fingers as well on a left hand, so she's pushing the barrel away.

So the gun residue on her left hand to you, indicated that she was using her left hand to try to push the muzzle away.

Yeah, I'm saying the gun residue on hand, I didn't know until forensics sorted that bit out after the fact. That was after the fact. But the fact is at that time her hand, her left hand was on her lap and her league was out. Her left league was out, so that was the only hand she had to defend herself with. And I wasn't surprised that it had gone residie on that hand.

But in those moments with you looking around the room and taking all that detail in, as you said, detail is so important, you formed the definite view. Did you that it was not suicide?

Yeah? I was convinced by my experiences that it wasn't suicide, and this was confirmed as I gained other information at later times.

We're all three of you in agreement at that time. Did you all think that there were suspicious enough signs that you needed the detectives and that it was a crime scene?

We congregated, the three of us congregated sort of every ten minutes or so. How'd you go? What did you find? I got this? I got that, and Pip went back to the car to check for more firearms because I had a bundle of firearms. Was about four I had and there was five registered for the for the residents of the property. And as we got together, I said, this is suspicious. This is just not a suicide. So I conferred with him. So that's why he in called for the crime car. We need a car, We need someone here to do this, We need help.

But both your colleagues agreed with you.

Yes, oh, yeah, one hundred percent, And to this day.

So there was complete consensus, yes, from three uniform police officers exactly exactly.

Forensically, it wasn't good because there had been three people that had handled that firearm. I didn't at the time that Robert Sipons had handled it and unloaded it, Gareth Price had moved it, and the perpetrator used it. So there's three people touch that fire up. So from then on we had to be really vigilant, let no one in the house, and it was declared a PFA.

PFA is protected forensic area ye.

So couldn't let anybody in, and we had to leave everything in its place and just seize items that needed seizing, but leave them where they are and we'll deal with it later.

It's apparent from the records that Senior Constable Roberts On declaring it a PFA, asked for forensics, a formal request for the forensics team to turn up, but they never turned up.

What happened there, well, he asked for crime car, so the detectives rolled up along with a second car with other trainee detectives. And I've seen these people around, but when people become a detective or in the crime car, blue collars not to accept it that, well, it's a bad habit that detectives have got. They don't want to listen to their ground crew, which are their eyes and ears, which are of the frontline police.

According to police records, detectives Tony Kirkman and Tom Wiederman arrived about seven pm.

So in the ranking system, you're well and truly the foot soldier and they turn up as officers. And there's very much division there.

Is there, I think, So, yeah, there's always been that division from years before. It's always been the same.

So let me just get this right. I'm struggling to understand this. So there's three police officers on the scene, and you're treating this bedroom and the house by extension, but you're treating the bedroom where Amy's body is still sitting as a PFA.

Officially, yes, the whole place, actually the whole shed's house, everything protected forensic area YEP. And by definition of that category, then a forensic team has to turn up. But somehow, somewhere in the ensuing two or three hours, that request gets overruled by somebody and the forensic team never turns up.

How does that happen?

Well, I think that when the crime car would arrive Normally they would call for forensics. We called for assistance with a crime car, so that, you know, they'd take it from there and we'd be the people just doing all the bagging and mopping up and taking statements if it's necessary. You know, we'd be doing all that.

You're telling me. The detectives overruled what the three of you were thinking.

Oh, definitely, definitely. When the detectives arrived, they didn't want to go in. Kirkman did all the talking. He said, no, we don't have to go in because he says, we've got photographs. Well, we'll just look at photographs. And I said, no, no, I know, you've got to go in. You can't just look at the photographs. And I was getting I was a little bit vocal because the truth is the truth, and I don't I don't like people Dutch shoving Dutch shoving jobs.

Hang on, you and your colleagues had taken photographs.

Ian took the photographs.

Yes, Senior Constable Roberts do for photographs in the bedroom.

Yes. On the police supplied camera. Everything has got a continuity of flows. So it has to be a police radio, a police phone, and a police camera.

So the photographs were taken on the police camera. Yep, the detectives turn up. What's the first thing they say?

They just said, well, what's going on? And we told them and he goes, oh, well we won't have to go in. Then I almost look at the photographs and it was a bit heated because I had a word and then Ian had a word as well with this Kirkman who was doing on talking. And then Tom Wiederman disappeared for a couple of minutes and came back and in his hand he dropped down the cover shoes. They're sort of forensic overshoe, right, So that meant that Weederman was saying, let's go inside.

Well, what sort of detective turns up to a crime scene and doesn't want to physically look at the crime scene?

While he's made his own admissions at the currentis Court that he was slack and he was also going on holidays that night, so he didn't want anything upsetting his leave.

So, just coming back to that point, is it fair to say that these heated words you and your colleagues embarrassed the detectives into going inside and having a look seeing what you saw, Oh for sure. Yeah, And when they did and then came out of the house.

Well about five minutes. They said, no, it's a suicide.

They spent five minutes in that.

Yeah, I think it's about five minutes. I didn't put the clock on it, but we were waiting outside and we weren't waiting that long.

It's that all.

Yeah, they might have been in their ten minutes, but it just seemed a very short time to me, not enough time to do a preliminary excavation in there to see what they can find, take more photos, look at spatter and stuff like that, look at the ammunition, I look at the gun, just see how Amy thought. So nights on the wardrobe and stuff like that. So, no, they didn't have enough time to do any of it.

Well, we know from the inquest that they took hardly any notes. Between the two of them. There was less than a page.

Yep.

So it backs up what you're saying. When they came out, how did they say that?

They said it's non suspicious like that, and Ian and I said again, you know no this, you know you're missing the point. There's the whole story is that it is suspicious. And I said, well, you've already dismissed it. Again and there's a car, a rocking hand car, taking two statements down the front driveway from Price and Simmons. You haven't read them yet, And their reply was, oh, yeah, well we'll read the statements and let you know. We'll ring the phone, and Pip had the phone and she advised about, I don't know, five or ten minutes later again now it's non suspicious. And then we declared it a non pair fait. So then it was open slab. You can go where you want, to do what you wanted, and click what you wanted and put it all in order, get an interim property receipt, ready to handle the goods over because you couldn't leave them there. So from then on we just sort of we're a little bit fizzed about it, but we just had our orders.

So it was no longer forensically protected. It was open slather yep. Once they decided the hammer had come down, they said, no, it's non suspicious. Yep. While this is going on, while they're in that house, even for that short amount of time, where are David Simmons and Gareth Price.

David Simmons and Gareth Price, we're giving a statement down at the front gate to the rocking Ham car.

That was a police car from the Rockingham point.

We were assisted. We needed a bit of help, and I said to the fellas earlier, I said to take a statement if you don't mind, from these two blogs, and keep them apart when you do it, and don't let anybody up the driveway. We don't want any more people up here. Shortly after that, we've still got Amy in the room. We've secured some firearms, put them in the back of our police car the lock door, and we were then joined by Price and Simmons.

So after David Simmons and Gareth Price gave their statements individually, they were allowed to come up to the.

House, allowed to come up to the area, but I wouldn't let them in the house.

And how would you describe David simmons demeanor at that stage?

Oh, I suppose he was a bit reserved. You know, I've known David Simmons for a little while. He was fairly reserved. And Gareth came up to get his car. They came up in Amy's commodore.

Did you talk to Simmons at all?

I had a word with him briefly. He made his way to the house and I said, boy, you can't go in there, mate. He said why, I said, because I said so, Because we hadn't shifted Amy. We don't know what she's got on her. So it was just a matter of keeping him out.

Why was he wanting to go back into the house of that stage.

He said the words I want to get my phone, and then Cantabell Dixon said there's a phone here. He said, no, that's not mine. Mine's pink and I said, no, mate, you can't go in the house. Definitely not. So he left the area with Gareth Price right, and then I said to Casper Dixon, I said, there's no big hair he guru or alive who owns a pink phone? That was my word, So you know, I was sort of that gets the point across straight away to pick that. Yeah, he does know a pink phone. And the pink phone was found a bit later on Tuckey in Amy's left sock, so it was Amy's fun.

He was Amy's phone, so clearly he was trying to access Amy's fun.

Yeah, for sure, why would you want that? I don't know, might might have had something on it that he wanted to see.

So the detectives then went and what read the statements of both Price and Simmons while they were on the property.

They down the driveway right down the front of the property. They read the statements, and about five minutes later it was declared and non PFA. They've read the statements. It's suicide.

So they just read the statements. The detectives did not interview them formally. No, there was not even an attempt to take either of them back to a police station and separate them and just have a formal interview.

No. Nothing.

You were in the police force for some what three years after this event, yep, and no one has ever come to you like we're doing today, sitting down and asking you questions about your experience.

I was approached by cold case to be interviewed. I was out of the police by then, so I had to go to Manda John's station and I spoke to the senior counciple in charge of the cold case.

And did she ask you a whole list of questions and talk about your experience.

No, she didn't ask me anything at all like that. All she wanted me to do was change my statement.

Why.

Well, I stood firm and I said my Statement's my statement. I said, I'm not changing anything. And this person dropped her insistence and said, why does your statement have a different font there? There and there? And I said, well, we use a different computer. You don't go to the same computer every time. And they'd written in extra things that I should have had should have said, well, they think I should have said, but it was all if it was a homicide. But it wasn't a homicide, so I didn't have to say a lot. I said enough, I've done enough statements to know what to do. So, you know, and you haven't got time to sit there. You haven't got all day or all shift ten hours to work on your file. You've got to get out in the road and protect the public and just you know, just be a police officer, mum, John. Police always had a backlog of work and there wasn't a lot of coppers there at the time.

So when the police, sorry to laugh, but that almost cometic. When the police did talk to you about about the case, they're more worried about the font. Yes, the different fonts on your statement.

And why I didn't put this in, didn't put that in? And I've got all these statements here if police want me to bring them forward, I'm only too happy to I've kept all the records.

But they've never sat down with you like this, No, and talked about the events of that night.

No.

Never. And I'll just let you know now, if I am interviewed by police, I will need an interview friend, because I don't know what's going on. I haven't got a clue.

You appeared at the inquest, Larry, yep, and you were represented partially by the police lawyer.

Yep.

What did the police lawyer say to you? Do they do? They want to tease out that this and find out what you knew?

The police lawyer, I think their role is to make sure that the the cops give good evidence. And I looked after.

They adequately represented, Yeah, for sure yep.

And I went to Perth with Ian Roberts and we went to police headquarters and I dropped in and saw this solicitor right and we had an appointment to be there. And when it was my team to go into the solicitor's office, I gave her a barrage of unanswered questions all out of my head and she just sort of looked a bit bewildered. Why I was asking all these questions. It's like, look, I haven't been spoken to. I'm so frustrated. So that all went okay. About a month later it was the currentis court. So when I did give evidence, this same solicitor said to me, I'll put a scenario to you. I answered a few questions, and then it was put a scenario to you. I turned to your honor and I said, your honor, can I speak freely? And your honor says, please do so. I said, don't you give me any scenarios. You weren't there because I was protective of the fact that the solicitor already stated that she committed suicide. So I didn't want I didn't want any scenario. I didn't want anything. I just want the truth. And well, for whatever this solicitor said wouldn't have been conducive to the way I think.

What were your impressions? What is your impression of the coronial finding?

I didn't go to every hearing, but I did hear your honor say to Tom Wiederman, three Unifine police offers reckoned exactly the opposite.

What Larry is referring to is the uniform officers were adamant they made it clear they didn't believe Amy's death was suicide, but the detectives gave the impression it wasn't express that firmly.

Did it occur to you that that could be consistent with someone trying to keep a door shut with their feet.

Yes, that is a possibility. But looking at when we went in and looking at the blood spatter, and again I'm not an expert, and that's something I regret that we didn't get certain experts out, But looking at the body where Detective Kirkman had sort of supervised me what he believed to happen, and I agreed that the shot would have been level because of the spatter. It made sense if she was sitting there when she got shot, So in our view, the body wasn't moved after death. Remembering that the barrel of the gun, and look, I'm not a gun person, Detective Kirkman is. I was led by his knowledge, which I know Kirkman. I've worked with him for a long time. I respect him. He's a good police officer. I have nothing but good to say about his investigating skills. There was blood on the barrel, which would indicate that the gun was reasonably close to the head as well, talked about would someone again fear as a factor, would someone cower in a corner when someone stands there with a gun? If someone shot from above her, the spatter would have been different, so the gun would have been in our view level.

So the position of her body behind the door with her feet against it and no door handle, he didn't notice there was no door handle, not.

That I recall at the moment. Sorry, the other things. We checked the body for injuries, you know, defensive injuries, we couldn't see any.

The counsel assisting Sarah Tyler then asks these questions, Are you.

Aware that the forensic pathologist undertook an examination and found bruising to Amy's right wrist?

I was told afterwards, yes.

Do you think, with the benefit of hindsight that it would have been beneficial to wait for the forensic pathologists to do a full examination before forming a view one way or the other?

Benefit of hindsight? And if I what I know now, I would have done a lot of further investigation at the time, But we can't go back.

I understand that when you exited the property having made the preliminary determination that the death was not suspicious. You spoke with the uniformed officers.

Again, I think it was more detective sergeant Kirkman. But yes, I was part of that conversation.

What's your recollection of that conversation.

I couldn't give you words. It happened six and a half years.

Ago, not words, just your general recollection of what was.

He explained what it was, and I don't recall that some of the uniform disagreed. But again I couldn't say it didn't happen. I don't have any recollection of that conversation.

You don't remember those officers saying we disagree.

I don't remember anyone saying, hang on, we believe it was suspicious. Quite frankly, at the moment, if someone said, hang on, this is suspicious, we would reassess and say why and either rule it in or rule it out.

Your perception is that if one of those officers had said to you, this is suspicious, you would have taken that on board and you would have reconsidered your position.

Yes.

Wiederman Is then asked about the statements from Simmons and Price, which they hadn't seen at the time of making that determination.

We've heard evidence from from some of the uniformed officers that suggest that there was some reluctance to even view those statements. Does that sound accurate to you?

We were always going to review statements.

You never make a determination and ignore statements that were taken at the scene. No where did you review the statements.

We went down to the front gate and we sat in the car. There were four of us. Kirkman read the statements out.

To us, and what was your impression of those statements.

Yeah, there were some inconsistencies, which is not necessarily bad. It means there's an independent thought process. I don't recollect anything raising any flags in the statements.

Despite the evidence being different from what he and Detective Kirkman believed on the night they investigated. Detective Weedeman doesn't believe they got it wrong.

You stand by the determination that it was a suicide.

I still believe it was a suicide. Now having said that, in hindsight, we would have done or I would have done. I can't speak for Kirkman. I would have done further inquiries.

The deputy coroner makes this point.

As a coroner for the last seven years, who does one hundred of sudden deaths, I can literally only think of one where a female committed suicide with a firearm. I find it surprising because we've had three uniformed officers who to this day have indicated they felt quite strongly that it was suspicious, and they feel like they conveyed that information effectively to the detectives, that it wasn't factored into the decision making. But your evidence is that you don't recall those concerns being raised, which is obviously very unusual. I have to weigh up the evidence of both, and it's quite clear to me that they all continued to feel strongly about this case ever since, and they all still feel that way.

I know Kirkman might inform the uniforms at the time of why it wasn't suspicious. Again, I wasn't in that conversation, so I don't know if there was something raised there.

Moving on to his partner, Detective Sergeant Kirkman, Kirkman acknowledges he was taking leave for seven weeks. The following day, he tells the inquest he remembers the missing door handle, but didn't think it was significant, and like Detective Weedaman, Detective Sergeant Kirkman still thinks Amy's death was suicide.

I can't imagine somebody sitting there and allowing somebody to place it directly onto her head and pull the trigger and her not move or try to prevent it. It's just not logical.

However, he admits he read it wrong and shouldn't have called off forensics.

I appreciate your own experienced detective and your experience with far arm matters generally. Do you have any qualifications in respect of blood spatter?

I'm not a blood spatter expert.

No, we are going to hear from a blood spatter expert in due course. My understanding is that their assessment of the blood spatter is that it wasn't consistent with a low to high trajectory. Do you think, with the benefit of hindsight, that it perhaps would have been beneficial to call an expert to make that determination?

One hundred percent yes.

Do you know why you didn't do that?

Arrogance over confidence, feeling like I was the person that was responsible, and I was the one that had to make the decision, and I made what I considered to be the wrong decision.

He's then asked about his argument with the uniform officers.

Do you recall that conversation the conversation was I'd explain to them what we'd seen and that it was my determination that it was suicide. How did the officers respond to that they disagreed? Yes, but like I said, it was my decision.

Did they disagree forcefully? It had been described in evidence as a heated discussion.

Yes, I've had many heated discussions. I'm quite abrasive. I can be rude, I can be blunt, but that was not a heated discussion.

Are you the type of detective given that you say you can be abrasive and a bit rude, that is unlikely to take the point of another officer.

I take other people's opinions, but like I said, at the end of the day, the decision, as wrong as it was, was mine and I made it.

So at the time, was it pretty clear to you that they didn't think you were right?

They disagreed at the beginning, but like I said, there was no you know, VM an argument or raised voice or even forceful conversation. But I don't think they agreed with me.

So it was clear with you that they didn't agree with you at the time.

That's correct, man, It was clear at the inquest the coroner had a hard time understanding any justification in the way detectives handled Amy's case, and.

Yet it's an open finding.

Well, it is an open finding now, yes.

Which I still leave suicide on the table Barry.

Yes, well that's right. Yeah, that open finding is probably the second best result we needed because it won't be closed. It won't ever be closed, you know, and police can still have a ping at it later on.

Ten years on. Is your view that Amy did not shoot herself still as strong?

Ah? Yes, I live with it. I've had high ranking police officers say to me at least a dozen she didn't cheat herself. And of all my mates at the Jarediae gun club, and a good friend of mine who who runs a Jaredile gun club and I go to him for support with fire ups, and they all said she didn't shut herself. No way. So I'm hearing it from everybody that she didn't shoot herself. It's and that makes me firm in what I think.

You haven't changed.

I'm not going to change.

Either, notwithstanding that the forensics were completely mucked up on the night and that has destroyed a whole stack of potential evidence. Do you think police have tried hard enough to find new evidence.

Well, I've offered a reward. So there's a lot of people that need closure on this, including myself, Gareth Simmons, and the families other police officers. So if someone comes forward with that little nugget of information, doesn't matter how trivial it seems, that little nuggative information may may enrich their wallet and solve the problem.

How many people do you think involved in this? No more than they're saying.

Oh, probably probably three or four. Definitely three or four.

If you had to single out the clues, if I can put it that way, Larry, if you had to single out the clues in this that to you on the day as a police officer stood out as being the strongest indicators that this wasn't a suicide. What would they be.

Robert Simons told me that they were firing the gun all afternoon, the four ten. And I can back this up by the fact that there was a skeep tucker in the shed and there was broken skeets all down the road. Clay pigeons, they called them, right, So they layered them up, flick it out and then shoot it with the four to ten. They've been using the four ten all afternoon. I'd been cutting figh what I believe in the morning. So forensics say there was nothing on their clothes that has to be considered. The police are saying that forensics didn't pick up any evidence of anything on.

Their clothes, no gunshot residue.

No gunshot residue, no blood, nothing but three drops of blood were found on the shoes and it was animal blood, right, So if you dig a little bit deeper, David Simmons had time to change his clothes.

So between the time of the shooting and the time that CCTV vision at the roadhouse happens, there is time, you think for a clothing change.

Oh, it takes me about a minute and a half to change, you know. And I've got standard tracksuit pants and tops that I've got five pairs of each sort of thing, so i could look the same, but I've got clean clothes.

On clarify here. The clothes tested were those provided by Simmons and Price, which they say they were wearing on the night. One of the witnesses, Joshua Brydon, says Simmons did change his clothes from a blue singlet and blue jeans, but he said it happened before Amy died, and it was because he'd been chopping wood in the rain. We'll also discuss this in more detail in a later episode of this podcast.

Amy's eldest daughter said in her interview this can't be admitted to court because she's too young. But she says in the interview that she sees one of the men dragging a wheellybin down to the road.

Yeah, I'm of the belief. Now I didn't see a wheely bin down the road anywhere. I believe that there was clothing in the wheely bin because it stands to reason, say, someone's just been killed, whether suicide or homicide, why would you bother towing a weely bin down the road. That's not your priority. That's not his priority anyway, because it's not Price's job to do that.

Why would you toe a weeely bin? Then it's not exactly midnight as a priority, is it.

No? But the thing is what was in the bin. That's the question. What was in the bin? Now, this clothes that they wore didn't have anything on them. It was a clothing that Simmons had to present to forensics. There should have been fire wood, chips, on them, and there are also should have been gun.

Residue from shooting the gun all after night.

From shooting the gun all afternoon. My theory is it's a break back four ten shotgun. When you break it, both empty cartridges fire out back at you and then they hit you. They tip upside down. You would have gun residue on your pants, around your belt line, your chest because most people hold it to the side and do it. But that's how you get this residue on you from a breakback.

Robert Simmons role in going into that bedroom, into that crime scene and unloading that weapon, the father of David Simmons. Why would you do that, Larry?

I don't really know how Robert Simmons thinks, but the police detectives didn't speak to Robert that night. Robert told me when we dropped the interim propery receipt off, because we had a crossbow and five firearms and a bag full of ammunition, and we took it up. We took the property receipt up, which is which you have to do if you're seizing something. And he told me at that time that they'd be far in the four ten all afternoon, and he unloaded the firearm and put the spent cart and the live cartridge on the bedside table.

I just don't understand why you do that. Why would you touch the gun at all?

I don't know, But why would you say my son's done it too? He said that in one.

Of his he said that in his call to the operator.

Well would you say that? Well? What else can I say?

Since the shooting? Have you had any contact with David Simmons?

Yes? I have. About a year later, Ian and I were going down Salist Highway and we got to Keysbrook because that's really the limit of our area, and we were stopped by a Pinjarra police car and that bloke had to talk to us and he said, if you ever arrest a bloke called David Simmons, take two cars with you because he's a handful.

Of thanks mate, and this is another policeman telling you it. Yep.

And I said, what's what's he done? He said, I'm driving under the influence, so he's got done for that as well. And after that, about three years two or three years later, my partner and I, who was a proby constable, went to a job at the tavern, of which that's where Simmons met Amy. She worked at the tavern. We go to the tavern, that's about it's probably about eight o'clock at night. We're on afternoon shift. But this is a few years after the show, a few years later, and I went into the hotel. My partner was a provy, so she was very green. She I don't know if she come in or not, but I've got a duty of care to look after it. But at this time, soon as I saw it was Simmons, I just had to focus on him and I said, come on, David outside because he's been kicking the toilet door and making a kerfuffle.

He was the subject of the call.

Was he David Simmons was the subject?

Yep?

He was a Blaker's disturbing everybody. And we went outside and I said, we know each other. Let's just get this sorted. And he goes, yeah, you took my kids off me, and you took all my guns off me. Nothing about Amy, and he is pretty full on and he went for my taser. So I pressed my PRESSL switch and all the time this is going on, the PRESSL switches on your radio and an alerts VICI that you need assistance, and I have a duty of care to accounstable. The LA was with and I'm trying to fend him off. And I looked Dave, and she's hiding behind the passenger seat passenger side front door, looking at me.

Were you armed?

I was armed with a taser and a firearm and a baton.

So was she?

That's right confronting? Yeah, oh yeah, because within five minutes a armada car roll up and two officers got out. One was a fairly tall junior officer with all the he had all the power about him, and the other one was a female sergeant. And Simmons said to me, you're dead. I'm going to kill you, kill your family and all this shit, and now do you like it if your partner gets killed and all this sort of shit, You're dead sort of thing. Has kept saying that, and then this young bloke, this young copper, jumps out of the passenger seat and throws him on the bonnet. And then the other officer come around. Then they handcuffed him right, but they did pull him off me, and.

So he got in a few punches to you, did he?

Oh? I offended him off. I wasn't worried about him too much. But the funny thing is he turned to the officer who threw him on the bonnet, Ah, you're dead. You're as good as dead. So they took him to arm at Our police station. I had to go there with my partner and she did the paperwork, hand him over sort of thing, give a statement of who's who and who's what. I sat in the car because it'd be best if I don't go into the lockup. And he was charged. He was remanded that night, and he was in charge and got nine months for assaulting me, got nine months in jail, yep, for sulting public officer.

And now he's up on another charge exactly the same.

I'm really not up with what he's up with. As I said earlier, to keep an open mind, i haven't listened to anybody's stories. I've just read my own notes, and I just want to be clearing the head without anybody giving me advice or telling me what's going on.

Larry, this is a value judgment, But the detectives on the night, I think it's been pretty well proven during the inquest. That's the arrogance and the sloppy detective work, the lack of judgment. All of that combined to really damage this case. But that's one thing. Why do you think for so many years the police have seemingly been so intent on maintaining this line about a suicide. It's almost like they're locked on and they won't consider anything else.

As I said earlier, a lot of police have spoken to me and they are convinced it's not a suicide. I don't think the right people have handled the job.

It's the state government that's come up with the reward money and police have gone into lockstep with that. And this case has been included as a bundle with a whole stack of other cases. So it's almost an accident, if I can put it that way, that it's turned out to be now a homicide. Appealing for information? Yeah, do you know if things are different for the two other constables involved because they're still in the police force, you're retired. Have they had anybody come to them and ask them questions that you haven't been asked?

I don't know. I have lost contact with them all. I've lost contact with every police officer ever known. I had some really good friends, but I don't see anybody now.

Why is that?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I sort of They used to come up my driveway when I was at home. You know, they're on shift and yan and then they'd burn off. But you know, it's sort of people change venues. I suppose as well.

You still think there are things that could be done, Oh.

For sure, Yeah, for sure, yep. But now it's got it's got beyond all the all the cops that are spoken to me. It's got technical. But I've worked it out, so why haven't they? I'm no hero, mate, but it's it's obvious, you know, sort of you're going to go with it.

You want to clear your conscience, too, don't you.

I want to clear my mind. My conscience is good. I've done the right thing, and I just want to have clarity, finalize this issue and move.

On and keep the promise you made to Amy.

That's dead, right, Yep? I will do that whatever whatever, I will not.

Stop from everything you saw, everything you witnessed, and the people you've spoken to then and after, what's your best guess at what really happened? What do you think is the real truth about Amy?

Gareth said to me one day, I wouldn't get between Simmons and his partner. So that meant to me straight away he's a bit shy, which i've Simmons having a guardian. I suggest that she didn't commit suicide. The only ways can now be proven, I think, is if they have some kind of inquiry and put all these police on notice that they'll have to go to the inquiry and answer the questions.

So you want a proper formal judicial inquiry, Yeah.

For sure, And that way I might be spoken to as well, I hope. So. But there's another little thing that's stuck in my mind is I had a great deal of arrests at Mono. John warrants, serve the summonses, the VROs and I've arrested fair few people prior to the new police station. And even now with the new police station, you're reluctant to take a person back there and arrested person unless there's other people in the office, because if you've got no one in the office, you can't sort of leave this person on their own in the lockup. You've got to monitor them, or you've got to get someone else to monitor them. The on the screen. So I always made it a decision to go to Armadale, and I've took most of my arrests to Armadah, and I actually went there that frequently. The OIC gave me a swipe card to get in through the gate, you know, because it might be afternoon shift, late or something like that. I had an arrest and I went to Armadale. My partner and I went into the lockup and they had a police auxiliary officer there doing the entry into custody. So I just said to my part I'm going to buck upstairs and notify the sergeant that we've got an arrest. So I go up and you know, I just wandered into the sergeant's office, Gale's serge, and it was Tom Wiederman. He looked up at me, and it was within a half a second said it was a bit strange that night, wasn't it. It's still on his mind. Three or four years later.

In Western Australia, State Corners Court figures reveal there were one hundred and seventeen deaths involving firearms between twenty fourteen and twenty twenty, of which ninety eight were suicides. Only three of those were female. WA Police procedure for firearm fatalities include securing the scene, examining and assessing it for possible suspicious circumstances or other party involvement, and if criminality suspected, contacting the homicide squad. Identify and photograph blood spatter and see if it's consistent with the scene. Consider whether the deceased could have reached the trigger. Verify scene factors, positioning of the body and weapon location, whether it's consistent with the method of death that's occurred. If further advice or specialist assistance is required, contact forensic if necessary, Bag the deceased hands in paper bags to protect gunshot residue search for a suicide Note.

This was in twenty twenty one following Amy's shooting. There wasn't much point in police going back because Robert Simmons had the cleaners in the very next day after detectives called off forensics, deciding a protected forensic area was no longer necessary as the case was closed, any evidence was gone. After the inquest into Amy's death, WA Police announced they had put procedures in place so that if lower ranked police officers harbored concerns about the conduct of their superiors in similar situations, there was now a number they could call. Undoubtedly, anyone who used that number wouldn't be very popular, and it's still not mandatory for forensics to automatically be called in the event of an unexpected sudden death. While the scene may have been lost, Amy Wensley's body was, however, subjected to further examination. This included chemical analysis by Forensic Science Laboratory Senior Chemist and Research Officer, doctor Cary Pitts, who reported the following.

One, no gunshot residue particles were detected on the sample elected from the right thumb of Amy Lee Wensley. Two twenty two particles consistent with gunshot residue were detected on the sample collected from the left thumb of Ami Lee Wensley.

While they were at the crime scene, Detectives Kirkman and Wiederman determined Amy could have held and fired the gun with her left hand, either with or without the assistance of her right hand. There was a suggestion she could have balanced the butt of the shotgun on the bed. You'll remember, Amy was a very petite young woman, just one hundred and sixty five centimeters tall and weighing just fifty kilotes. Wa Police's own tests to the possibility of her having shot herself were inconclusive. University of Western Australia Professor of up hyde Anatomy and Biomechanics, Timothy Ackland, is one of two biomechanical experts called on for independent analysis of Amy's death, specifically whether suicide was possible. Professor Ackland made findings on a series of questions, including one whether Amy could have supported this shotgun in a near horizontal orientation on her right side, with the barrel held to her temple, using her left hand or with the support of her right hand.

In my report to the Coroner dated fourteenth of August twenty eighteen, I concluded notwithstanding the deceased having sufficient strength to support the shotgun, this does not mean she would have had the ability to support, aim, and then push the trigger with her left hand. This is a very awkward posture to have adopted, especially when the task could have more easily been accomplished by the use of the right hand. I am not convinced that a person would attempt such an action with just a left hand, especially when the right hand could easily have been employed to support the gun or pull the trigger. Our attempt to recreate a scenario demonstrated clearly to me that such an action proposed by the detectives who attended the scene is not consistent with the evidence.

Two, The probability that after a self inflicted gunshot, the firearm could possibly have fallen where Gareth Price said he found it, being that the firearm was in Amy's lap with the barrel pointed up toward her head, while the gun's butt was on the floor, is as follows.

Mister Price as the first person who have entered the bedroom after mister d. Simmons has stated the location of the gun truthfully, then my conclusion remains that the gun was placed there by a person other than the deceased.

And three, Finally, whether it's possible Amy shot herself.

My opinion expressed in my report to the coroner was the deceased did not shoot herself. Nothing resulting from these simulations and reconstructions has changed my view in this respect. I therefore restate my opinions as follows. The evidence is not consistent with the assertion of detectives who first attended the scene that the deceased had pulled the trigger herself using her left hand by pressing the butt of the gun against the bed and leaning over with her left arm. The evidence is also not consistent with the possible scenario that the deceased had held the shotgun horizontally on her right side and pushed the trigger using her left hand. The evidence is highly consistent with the scenario that the deceased was shot by another person who had held the shot gun near horizontally on her right side with the barrel closed to her right temper.

So he then makes this determination.

Following these simulations, I am now in the position to add the evidence is also not consistent with the possible scenario that the deceased had held the gun horizontally on her right side and pushed the trigger using her right hand.

Similarly, on the thirteenth of April twenty twenty, the other independent expert engineer, Thomas J. Gibson, makes these following observations.

Based on the available evidence, Miss Wensley may have held the shotgun in two hands, left hand at the muzzle and right hand at the trigger, and discharge the gun herself. However, this scenario fails to adequately explain two features of the scene. The position of the right hand of miss Wensley under her right thigh and the position of the shotgun after the shooting as reported by witnesses. Therefore, it is unlikely the gun shot was self in flat by Miss Wensley. There is no evidence to suggest that the gunshot was accidental. The available evidence also allows an alternative scenario for the shooting. Miss Wensley, when seated upright behind the door to the bedroom, may have had a muzzle of the shotgun placed against her right temple and been shot by another person. The gunshot residue on Miss Wensley's left hand in this case, resulting from attempting to ward off the shotgun.

As well as being a chartered professional engineer with more than thirty years experience in the area of biomechanics of impact, injury causation and mitigation, Doctor Gibson has expertise in the areas of accident reconstruction, vehicle design, biomechanics, and injury causation. This is what the coroner said in her findings.

I have some reservations about accepting Professor Ackland and doctor Gibson's opinion that the biomechanical evidence is highly consistent with the scenario that Amy was shot by another person and taking that as compelling evidence that another person was involved in Amy's death, given the many limitations that were inherent in the experiment. In saying that, I make no criticism of Professor Ackland, as he was placed in a difficult position given there were so many unknowns. I accept he did his best as a scientist to eliminate those factors, but in my view, the weight to be given to the conclusions must be reduced as a result. However, what Professor Ackland and doctor Gibson's evidence does do is add to the other evidence suggesting Amy did not commit suicide sufficiently to create doubt about the police conclusion that the evidence that Amy died by suicide is compelling.

Hello, next week a family reunion. It's just so much, and we speak to Amy's daughters.

We shouldn't have come to the point where we didn't know what happened.

We should have just known on the.

Day solation You see soda Rea, then.

Until me.

Until If you knew Amy and have information, any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email us at the Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot AU. That's s E V E N. The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au or visit our website sevenews dot com dot au forward slash the Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com. If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can follow us to see photos and updates relevant to the case, but for legal reasons, unfortunately you won't be able to make any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series because it really helps new listeners to find us and Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett, Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blandford, and special thanks to Tim Clark and Brian Seymour. This is a seven News production.

The Truth About Amy

A 24 year-old mum tries to escape a violent relationship. She quickly packs the car – her two young  
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