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You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on apocarplaying and broud Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on apocarplaying and broud Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Let's get more on you Mish my favorite indicator. Joanshu Is, University of Michigan, Surveys of Consumer Director breaking down these numbers for us, Joanne, it feels like it's a non mover. Really, like everything is status quo. Can you walk me through what you see in these numbers? Absolutely so.

Let's get more on you Mish my favorite indicator. Joanshu Is, University of Michigan, Surveys of Consumer Director breaking down these numbers for us, Joanne, it feels like it's a non mover. Really, like everything is status quo. Can you walk me through what you see in these numbers? Absolutely so.

Overall it is essentially flat from last from last month. However, that does obscure some pretty substantial movements within the population.

Overall it is essentially flat from last from last month. However, that does obscure some pretty substantial movements within the population.

First of all, you know, election news has.

First of all, you know, election news has.

Been really dominating the headlines, and we see that in our data. Sentiment for Democrats improved six percent this month, but this ended up being offset by a five decline for Republicans. And these movements were entirely in expectations, which is sensible given that you know, election developments. Kamala Harris becoming the new nominee for the Democrats is not something that affects current assessments, But is something that affects people's outlook for the future, and.

Been really dominating the headlines, and we see that in our data. Sentiment for Democrats improved six percent this month, but this ended up being offset by a five decline for Republicans. And these movements were entirely in expectations, which is sensible given that you know, election developments. Kamala Harris becoming the new nominee for the Democrats is not something that affects current assessments, But is something that affects people's outlook for the future, and.

How can we expect that to evolve as we get closer to the election.

How can we expect that to evolve as we get closer to the election.

Since we are still only in mid August.

Since we are still only in mid August.

It's going to be volatile, or that's what I would expect. So far, consumers are really folding in who they think is going to win the election. But of course, as the campaign season evolves, people's expectations for the election are going to change, and as such their their future expectations for the macroeconomy will as well.

It's going to be volatile, or that's what I would expect. So far, consumers are really folding in who they think is going to win the election. But of course, as the campaign season evolves, people's expectations for the election are going to change, and as such their their future expectations for the macroeconomy will as well.

What are some of the other things that you noticed, just in terms of either future expectation or current conditions, I should say which did improve?

What are some of the other things that you noticed, just in terms of either future expectation or current conditions, I should say which did improve?

Yeah, current conditions really didn't move much at all, and if anything, it edged down just a little bit. Consumers continue to be very frustrated by hype prices that continues to be top of mind. At the same time, consumers do expect inflation to continue stabilizing. They've been already. They weren't really reacting to a CPI print or any data that came out this month. They were really already folding in their experiences throughout the month, their own experiences shopping and seeing the prices around them.

Yeah, current conditions really didn't move much at all, and if anything, it edged down just a little bit. Consumers continue to be very frustrated by hype prices that continues to be top of mind. At the same time, consumers do expect inflation to continue stabilizing. They've been already. They weren't really reacting to a CPI print or any data that came out this month. They were really already folding in their experiences throughout the month, their own experiences shopping and seeing the prices around them.

And just looking at the report, so we see thirty five percent respondents expect unemployment rate to rise in the coming year. Growing number expect interest rates to pull back. How does that kind of impact consumer sentiment and kind of where we could be in the coming months.

And just looking at the report, so we see thirty five percent respondents expect unemployment rate to rise in the coming year. Growing number expect interest rates to pull back. How does that kind of impact consumer sentiment and kind of where we could be in the coming months.

So consumers aren't really that concerned right now that labor markets may be softening. So the thirty five percent expecting unemployment rates to go up, that's unchanged from last month, So that's pretty stable. Income expectations have edged up, improved just a little bit, or have gone sideways. There's no weakening in consumer views of labor markets in August. That being said, strength and labor markets is precisely It has supported robust consumer spending over the last two years in spite of the fact that consumers don't feel like they're thriving. And so if there is some unraveling in labor markets, some softening in labor markets, I would expect consumers to pull back.

So consumers aren't really that concerned right now that labor markets may be softening. So the thirty five percent expecting unemployment rates to go up, that's unchanged from last month, So that's pretty stable. Income expectations have edged up, improved just a little bit, or have gone sideways. There's no weakening in consumer views of labor markets in August. That being said, strength and labor markets is precisely It has supported robust consumer spending over the last two years in spite of the fact that consumers don't feel like they're thriving. And so if there is some unraveling in labor markets, some softening in labor markets, I would expect consumers to pull back.

All right, Joan, that being yeah, oh no, finish up. Sorry, yeah.

All right, Joan, that being yeah, oh no, finish up. Sorry, yeah.

And part of the reason why that consumers I think feel some confidence about labor markets is that they do expect interest rates to come down in the year ahead.

And part of the reason why that consumers I think feel some confidence about labor markets is that they do expect interest rates to come down in the year ahead.

Which leads us right back to the FED. Hey, Joanne, we do appreciate it, thank you very much. Joining to the University of Michigan Surveys of Consumer Director. Joining us on those numbers, A sentiment came in a touch better, current conditions a touch flower, and expectations a touch higher as well.

Which leads us right back to the FED. Hey, Joanne, we do appreciate it, thank you very much. Joining to the University of Michigan Surveys of Consumer Director. Joining us on those numbers, A sentiment came in a touch better, current conditions a touch flower, and expectations a touch higher as well.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

All right, let's get in here now and talk about how you think about these markets after the volatility that we've seen the last couple weeks. But if you went on vacation two weeks ago and came back now, you didn't really miss much at the end of the day, which is also kind of crazy. Shana Sissel joins us. She's president and CEO of Benri owned Capital Management, and she joins us, Now, Shana, isn't that funny two weeks ago. It's like it never happened. I mean, that kind of rebound in the S and P is quite striking. How does that set you up now for the next couple months.

All right, let's get in here now and talk about how you think about these markets after the volatility that we've seen the last couple weeks. But if you went on vacation two weeks ago and came back now, you didn't really miss much at the end of the day, which is also kind of crazy. Shana Sissel joins us. She's president and CEO of Benri owned Capital Management, and she joins us, Now, Shana, isn't that funny two weeks ago. It's like it never happened. I mean, that kind of rebound in the S and P is quite striking. How does that set you up now for the next couple months.

I always say the best thing we can do for clients sometimes is maybe take away their password to their brokerage accounts so they're not checking it every day, because if they didn't, they would sleep a lot better at night for that exact reason. The market has short memory these days because we have so much information out there in the twenty four hour news cycle. But I think the volatility, you know, Professor Siegel was on another network earlier this week taking back everything he said when the panic set in, and if the professionals that but you know, investors look to for guidance, are inclined to panic, I think that that says a lot about kind of the overall sentiment and psychology of the market right now. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know, as information became available, people stopped freaking out about the end carry trade. But it doesn't change the fact that we are in a slowing economy. We've had good data, and so I think people feel confident the FED is definitely going to cut twenty five basis points in September, and I think that if you are a long term investor that there's some opportunities when people freak out like that to take advantage of, you know, the psychology of the market and buy things at a discount.

I always say the best thing we can do for clients sometimes is maybe take away their password to their brokerage accounts so they're not checking it every day, because if they didn't, they would sleep a lot better at night for that exact reason. The market has short memory these days because we have so much information out there in the twenty four hour news cycle. But I think the volatility, you know, Professor Siegel was on another network earlier this week taking back everything he said when the panic set in, and if the professionals that but you know, investors look to for guidance, are inclined to panic, I think that that says a lot about kind of the overall sentiment and psychology of the market right now. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know, as information became available, people stopped freaking out about the end carry trade. But it doesn't change the fact that we are in a slowing economy. We've had good data, and so I think people feel confident the FED is definitely going to cut twenty five basis points in September, and I think that if you are a long term investor that there's some opportunities when people freak out like that to take advantage of, you know, the psychology of the market and buy things at a discount.

Shanna Jackson Hole next week, What are you looking for from j Powell? What can you say that can either reinforce the view that we're going to get a twenty five if not a fifty basis point cut, or could he even kind of throw a wrench into things and maybe push that for they're out again.

Shanna Jackson Hole next week, What are you looking for from j Powell? What can you say that can either reinforce the view that we're going to get a twenty five if not a fifty basis point cut, or could he even kind of throw a wrench into things and maybe push that for they're out again.

I can't imagine where he's going to throw a wrench in things. I do think that fifty base points is a stretch. There's not enough data that suggests that we need to do a larger than expected cut, and I think the Fed is cautious to not do something so abrupt and significant that it would upset the overall market sentiments. As I've noted a couple of times, does matter, and I expect that he will continue the same narrative that he's had for quite some time, which is that the economy is stable, it's doing okay. That data shows that it's slowing down and softening, but not of concern, and it supports a twenty five base point cut, and I think that's what he'll continue to say. I've watched him long enough now to know that he's not one to like very quickly change his tone. Last time he was out speaking, he was, you know, not necessarily overly dubvish, and I don't expect him to suddenly become overly duvish.

I can't imagine where he's going to throw a wrench in things. I do think that fifty base points is a stretch. There's not enough data that suggests that we need to do a larger than expected cut, and I think the Fed is cautious to not do something so abrupt and significant that it would upset the overall market sentiments. As I've noted a couple of times, does matter, and I expect that he will continue the same narrative that he's had for quite some time, which is that the economy is stable, it's doing okay. That data shows that it's slowing down and softening, but not of concern, and it supports a twenty five base point cut, and I think that's what he'll continue to say. I've watched him long enough now to know that he's not one to like very quickly change his tone. Last time he was out speaking, he was, you know, not necessarily overly dubvish, and I don't expect him to suddenly become overly duvish.

Which to be fair, most other ex FRED presidents aren't either. So there's that as well. So we're kind of like wrapping up the earning season. We got some retail that's trickling out obviously in video is going to be a big event at the end of August. But what stocks do you like after we're kind of past the real hump of earning season headed into an election cycle or policy will be very unclear.

Which to be fair, most other ex FRED presidents aren't either. So there's that as well. So we're kind of like wrapping up the earning season. We got some retail that's trickling out obviously in video is going to be a big event at the end of August. But what stocks do you like after we're kind of past the real hump of earning season headed into an election cycle or policy will be very unclear.

Yeah, So I have kind of a wide variety of different types of stocks that I like. You know, I like a name like Atlas Holdings, which is Ensure, a commercial insurance firm, followed it for a while since my days at Ariel, and it's a really interesting company with a really unique niche that is trading at a discount and has some relatively attractive upside. Pretty born, it's in financials. You know, so people it's not sexy like in video or any of the AI plays. V RT is an AI play, but it's a second derivative of traditional AI. It's data center cooling, which is really important because in you know, this growing AI demand and more and more people looking to incorporate it, you need greater computing power, and thus you need a lot stronger or a lot more powerful cooling systems, of which v RT can bring to the table. I also like Novartists, which is a healthcare company. So I'm a little all over the place, happy to go down any one of those roads for you. But yeah, I'm trying. I am trying to find ideas outside of what has been the hot trend because you want to get into other areas when you start to see dispersion of returns, which we have seen a little bit of, and you want to take advantage of opportunities to be a stock picker.

Yeah, So I have kind of a wide variety of different types of stocks that I like. You know, I like a name like Atlas Holdings, which is Ensure, a commercial insurance firm, followed it for a while since my days at Ariel, and it's a really interesting company with a really unique niche that is trading at a discount and has some relatively attractive upside. Pretty born, it's in financials. You know, so people it's not sexy like in video or any of the AI plays. V RT is an AI play, but it's a second derivative of traditional AI. It's data center cooling, which is really important because in you know, this growing AI demand and more and more people looking to incorporate it, you need greater computing power, and thus you need a lot stronger or a lot more powerful cooling systems, of which v RT can bring to the table. I also like Novartists, which is a healthcare company. So I'm a little all over the place, happy to go down any one of those roads for you. But yeah, I'm trying. I am trying to find ideas outside of what has been the hot trend because you want to get into other areas when you start to see dispersion of returns, which we have seen a little bit of, and you want to take advantage of opportunities to be a stock picker.

So yeah, I guess kind of when you look at how you're playing AI. You mentioned Verdev. I covered them when they went public through a spac so you're looking at kind of these derivative plays when you're thinking about implementation of artificial intelligence and who can be the winners or losers.

So yeah, I guess kind of when you look at how you're playing AI. You mentioned Verdev. I covered them when they went public through a spac so you're looking at kind of these derivative plays when you're thinking about implementation of artificial intelligence and who can be the winners or losers.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm someone who's followed and loved in video and been talking about in VideA now for years, and it has served me well. You know, I've made a lot of money for clients and in that stock, and I'm still very much bullish on the stock. I think the trends are very favorable for the long term, and we're still very early in the AI cycle. That said, I don't think it can maintain the growth rate that it's had going forward.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm someone who's followed and loved in video and been talking about in VideA now for years, and it has served me well. You know, I've made a lot of money for clients and in that stock, and I'm still very much bullish on the stock. I think the trends are very favorable for the long term, and we're still very early in the AI cycle. That said, I don't think it can maintain the growth rate that it's had going forward.

Now.

Now.

One hundred percent growth is still really impressive, but when you were at three hundred percent growth, it it feels a little disappointing. And and so I'm trying to find other ideas that will benefit from AI. Vertiv is one of them. I've talked a little bit about Cisco in the past, and i know they're all in the news with the announcement of their layoffs, but that's another player that has some second derivative exposure in AI as well, and trading very cheaply and obviously making so interesting, unattractive or unpopular decisions internally, but typically those decisions are made to improve overall financial performance. So that's another name, but it's not on my by list. But it isn't another like second derivative play And that's kind of what you have to look at at this point.

One hundred percent growth is still really impressive, but when you were at three hundred percent growth, it it feels a little disappointing. And and so I'm trying to find other ideas that will benefit from AI. Vertiv is one of them. I've talked a little bit about Cisco in the past, and i know they're all in the news with the announcement of their layoffs, but that's another player that has some second derivative exposure in AI as well, and trading very cheaply and obviously making so interesting, unattractive or unpopular decisions internally, but typically those decisions are made to improve overall financial performance. So that's another name, but it's not on my by list. But it isn't another like second derivative play And that's kind of what you have to look at at this point.

Heyhana really appreciate it. That's such a great point about Cisco. Shana Sizzel joining us. She's president CEO of Benrionna Capital Management joining us.

Heyhana really appreciate it. That's such a great point about Cisco. Shana Sizzel joining us. She's president CEO of Benrionna Capital Management joining us.

There you're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on Effo card Play and then Broud Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts a watch us live on YouTube.

There you're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on Effo card Play and then Broud Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts a watch us live on YouTube.

I'm Alex Steel alongside Bailly Lipschutz. Paul Sweeney is setting himself at the beach today. This is Bloomberg Intelligence Radio. We bring you all the top news in business and finance and economics through our lens of our Bloomberg Intelligence analysts. They covered two thousand companies and one hundred and thirty industries all around the world. One topic we wanted to tackle today was empox. So the who declared a fast spreading empox outbreak in Africa a global health emergency as the agency seeks to contain the spread of the potentially deadly virus. WHO Director General sounded that alarm at a press conference on Wednesday.

I'm Alex Steel alongside Bailly Lipschutz. Paul Sweeney is setting himself at the beach today. This is Bloomberg Intelligence Radio. We bring you all the top news in business and finance and economics through our lens of our Bloomberg Intelligence analysts. They covered two thousand companies and one hundred and thirty industries all around the world. One topic we wanted to tackle today was empox. So the who declared a fast spreading empox outbreak in Africa a global health emergency as the agency seeks to contain the spread of the potentially deadly virus. WHO Director General sounded that alarm at a press conference on Wednesday.

WHR has been working on the mpox outbreak in Africa and raising the alarm that this is something that should concern us all. The Emergency Committee met and advised me that in its view, the situation constitutes a publical emergency of international concern joining us.

WHR has been working on the mpox outbreak in Africa and raising the alarm that this is something that should concern us all. The Emergency Committee met and advised me that in its view, the situation constitutes a publical emergency of international concern joining us.

Now.

Now.

Sam Fazzelli, Bloomberg Intelligence director of Research for Global Industries and senior Forharmaceuticals analyst, is standing by. I hear you're in Bordeaux. I can only assume there's a lot of work happening there.

Sam Fazzelli, Bloomberg Intelligence director of Research for Global Industries and senior Forharmaceuticals analyst, is standing by. I hear you're in Bordeaux. I can only assume there's a lot of work happening there.

Oh lots, Alex, lots. I haven't moved from this seat for the past seven hours.

Oh lots, Alex, lots. I haven't moved from this seat for the past seven hours.

I mean, he could be telling the truth. Hey, Sam, when I have you? I assume when I heard the Empire's headline, I was like, I gotta get Sam on, give us the basics, like what is it and how dangerous is it?

I mean, he could be telling the truth. Hey, Sam, when I have you? I assume when I heard the Empire's headline, I was like, I gotta get Sam on, give us the basics, like what is it and how dangerous is it?

Yeah?

Yeah?

So, Alex, I think when the WHO Director General declares these emergencies, it's that that's already quite a significant and important milestone for a disease. And as you know, it has already there's been some an individual in Sweden apparently there's been diagnosed with it. So and as I said all along, infectious diseases are not about a country, they're not about a continent. They spread. That's the job of an infectious agent. So let's remember that as we talked through the rest of this conversation, and what we got here is not quite a replay of what we had two years ago, which was a slightly different version of this monkey pox virus that this is called empox now. And the virus comes in two flavors, Played one Clay two that kind of looks at it's based on its genomic structure, and this particular one is played one, which is normally less but often found. I hadn't you know. The last one was klay two. And this Klaye one has got a major chunk of its genome that's been taken out, and those who study these things have been writing that it has made it more transmissible through not just contact with us, for example, but also through sexual activity, which is not what klayed one previously had, but also just very close contact. So unlike COVID, if you remember, there were stories with COVID where you go into a restaurant and you sit diagonally across twenty thirty feet away, and you still have a risk of catching it because it gets blown around by the air conditioning. I don't think we're at that level with empocs yet. I don't with this particular clade. Won't be I can't be one hundred percent shore, but I don't think it's like that. You still do need the close contact, and that's where we're That's where my knowledge kind of ends at the minute. These viruses do have a nasty habit of bringing surprises to us.

So, Alex, I think when the WHO Director General declares these emergencies, it's that that's already quite a significant and important milestone for a disease. And as you know, it has already there's been some an individual in Sweden apparently there's been diagnosed with it. So and as I said all along, infectious diseases are not about a country, they're not about a continent. They spread. That's the job of an infectious agent. So let's remember that as we talked through the rest of this conversation, and what we got here is not quite a replay of what we had two years ago, which was a slightly different version of this monkey pox virus that this is called empox now. And the virus comes in two flavors, Played one Clay two that kind of looks at it's based on its genomic structure, and this particular one is played one, which is normally less but often found. I hadn't you know. The last one was klay two. And this Klaye one has got a major chunk of its genome that's been taken out, and those who study these things have been writing that it has made it more transmissible through not just contact with us, for example, but also through sexual activity, which is not what klayed one previously had, but also just very close contact. So unlike COVID, if you remember, there were stories with COVID where you go into a restaurant and you sit diagonally across twenty thirty feet away, and you still have a risk of catching it because it gets blown around by the air conditioning. I don't think we're at that level with empocs yet. I don't with this particular clade. Won't be I can't be one hundred percent shore, but I don't think it's like that. You still do need the close contact, and that's where we're That's where my knowledge kind of ends at the minute. These viruses do have a nasty habit of bringing surprises to us.

Well, Sam, that's my next question would be how quickly can this evolve in what is kind of that look like in terms of similarities or differences to as you mentioned the twenty twenty two empocs or something that's more kind of well not obviously in COVID.

Well, Sam, that's my next question would be how quickly can this evolve in what is kind of that look like in terms of similarities or differences to as you mentioned the twenty twenty two empocs or something that's more kind of well not obviously in COVID.

Yeah. Yeah, So twenty twenty two, we still had ninety five thousand people who were infected. It did become a major issue in many countries, so let's not forget that. And so far from the last count I heard about, there's been seventeen and a half thousand infections that have been documented in the regions that have reported it. So how far can this go? It all depends on that mode of transmission. It all depends on Remember the days we went from a standard if you want to call it, that coronavirus SARSCOBE two to the omicron variant, which had so many mutations that made it completely invisible to our immune systems, So everybody got another infection round. I'm pretty sure you do recall that last lockdown.

Yeah. Yeah, So twenty twenty two, we still had ninety five thousand people who were infected. It did become a major issue in many countries, so let's not forget that. And so far from the last count I heard about, there's been seventeen and a half thousand infections that have been documented in the regions that have reported it. So how far can this go? It all depends on that mode of transmission. It all depends on Remember the days we went from a standard if you want to call it, that coronavirus SARSCOBE two to the omicron variant, which had so many mutations that made it completely invisible to our immune systems, So everybody got another infection round. I'm pretty sure you do recall that last lockdown.

I think it was, Oh, definitely remember all that, zam, don't you worry?

I think it was, Oh, definitely remember all that, zam, don't you worry?

Yeah, But I.

Yeah, But I.

Mean, it just feels like a really weird period of our lives. And so here we have something that if the rules are that it plays with us still the same as before, it does meet close contact, which means you should be able to avoid an infection if you're careful enough. The other elements, of course, is that we do have vaccines that do work. There is a six to seven hundred million stockpile of small pox vaccines around both the older generation and new generation, and there are two of r n A vaccines in development that could be sped up if needed. So we do know that vaccination helps, but it does have a higher mortality rate standard to even the people who get it that are that's not just like elderly people, which was mostly a COVID issue than COVID did.

Mean, it just feels like a really weird period of our lives. And so here we have something that if the rules are that it plays with us still the same as before, it does meet close contact, which means you should be able to avoid an infection if you're careful enough. The other elements, of course, is that we do have vaccines that do work. There is a six to seven hundred million stockpile of small pox vaccines around both the older generation and new generation, and there are two of r n A vaccines in development that could be sped up if needed. So we do know that vaccination helps, but it does have a higher mortality rate standard to even the people who get it that are that's not just like elderly people, which was mostly a COVID issue than COVID did.

So it can kill more and it can kill all different ranges, not just say the elderly. But we do have the vaccine. What about a treatment.

So it can kill more and it can kill all different ranges, not just say the elderly. But we do have the vaccine. What about a treatment.

There was a treatment that actually was being studied by a complet called Siga and that just failed in trials only two days ago, and it was being tested in the Congo and it was being against klayte one. But the good, the silver sider, the silver lining of that report is that the mortality rate that they came out with was lower than what people talk about. People talk about three to six percent, but in that trial, mortality like not small one and a half one point seven percent from what I have read. So that does give you a little flavor as to maybe it's not as bad, but it's obviously one point six one point seven percent is too pretty awful.

There was a treatment that actually was being studied by a complet called Siga and that just failed in trials only two days ago, and it was being tested in the Congo and it was being against klayte one. But the good, the silver sider, the silver lining of that report is that the mortality rate that they came out with was lower than what people talk about. People talk about three to six percent, but in that trial, mortality like not small one and a half one point seven percent from what I have read. So that does give you a little flavor as to maybe it's not as bad, but it's obviously one point six one point seven percent is too pretty awful.

And Sam, how kind of quickly can some of those vaccinations be deployed? Is that something that's already playing out right now? Is that being centered primarily where the heart of the outbreak is is in Congo.

And Sam, how kind of quickly can some of those vaccinations be deployed? Is that something that's already playing out right now? Is that being centered primarily where the heart of the outbreak is is in Congo.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it from the latest news real force that I've seen that Bloomberg has been doing a great job of talking about that. Apparently there've been discussions because this has been not this is not something that happened overnight. It's been going on at least in the Congo unfortunately for a few months, and that there's been discussions between groups that provide the vaccines and the Congo, and they hadn't got to a the last I read to a to an agreement of getting those vacks nations out and getting it to people. Let's not forget we've learned this. Anywhere you go, having vaccine is not equal to people having it in their arms. The more difficult a country, a region, reaching people in rural areas, et cetera, is cold chain necessities, et cetera. The more difficult that is, the fewer people will actually be vaccinated. So that's two different things here. But I'm confident that we can have enough vaccines to ring fence at least infections and areas and travelers. But in order to go into the hundreds of millions of doses, I think we need the m RNAs to get going.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it from the latest news real force that I've seen that Bloomberg has been doing a great job of talking about that. Apparently there've been discussions because this has been not this is not something that happened overnight. It's been going on at least in the Congo unfortunately for a few months, and that there's been discussions between groups that provide the vaccines and the Congo, and they hadn't got to a the last I read to a to an agreement of getting those vacks nations out and getting it to people. Let's not forget we've learned this. Anywhere you go, having vaccine is not equal to people having it in their arms. The more difficult a country, a region, reaching people in rural areas, et cetera, is cold chain necessities, et cetera. The more difficult that is, the fewer people will actually be vaccinated. So that's two different things here. But I'm confident that we can have enough vaccines to ring fence at least infections and areas and travelers. But in order to go into the hundreds of millions of doses, I think we need the m RNAs to get going.

It's such a good point, Sam, that's why you're the best. Hey, Before we let you go. I just want to hit you on this headline here. Pfizer and Beyontech their flu covid vaccine failed.

It's such a good point, Sam, that's why you're the best. Hey, Before we let you go. I just want to hit you on this headline here. Pfizer and Beyontech their flu covid vaccine failed.

Well, talking about the mRNA here, it's a complicated thing. It was a combination mRNA is against three different types of flu and covid, and it failed against one of the flu variants, which is the or strains, which is the influenza B virus in that setting. So they need to go back to the growing board and see why. That is what is complicated here and we need to understand it better. Is that they had a success in phase two, then they took the same thing into phase three and it failed against the B influenza B. I've been out. I've asked a company whether that's because they think that the strain changed during the trial. It's possible to remember flu is one of those nasty ones that changes all the time, and the change matters a lot more, I would say, than covid does. So that is what that's what happened here, and it does give them a disadvantage versus Moderna which had a successful trial.

Well, talking about the mRNA here, it's a complicated thing. It was a combination mRNA is against three different types of flu and covid, and it failed against one of the flu variants, which is the or strains, which is the influenza B virus in that setting. So they need to go back to the growing board and see why. That is what is complicated here and we need to understand it better. Is that they had a success in phase two, then they took the same thing into phase three and it failed against the B influenza B. I've been out. I've asked a company whether that's because they think that the strain changed during the trial. It's possible to remember flu is one of those nasty ones that changes all the time, and the change matters a lot more, I would say, than covid does. So that is what that's what happened here, and it does give them a disadvantage versus Moderna which had a successful trial.

Such good perspective, Sam, you are totally the best. Sam Fazelli, Boomberg Intelligence, Director of Research, for Global Industries and Senior Pharmaceutical joining us from Bordeaux. I look forward to the picture, Sam, I require some of that just to see because do you make your own wine there? Like do you have Oh he's gone, he already left, already, he's back to the vineyard. Ah. Same, thanks Sam, I really appreciate that one.

Such good perspective, Sam, you are totally the best. Sam Fazelli, Boomberg Intelligence, Director of Research, for Global Industries and Senior Pharmaceutical joining us from Bordeaux. I look forward to the picture, Sam, I require some of that just to see because do you make your own wine there? Like do you have Oh he's gone, he already left, already, he's back to the vineyard. Ah. Same, thanks Sam, I really appreciate that one.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Bloomberg Intelligence Radio. We are broadcasting to live from Interactive Broker Studio right here in Midtown Manhattan. Also check us out on YouTube. But you know, Bailey doesn't have his bro vesque, so the appeal for that is a little bit less. A Bay Lipshaltz in for Paul Sweeney. So, Bailey, I'm an energy geek nerd. I've been covering energy commodities for like seventeen and a half years, so welcome. So naturally, every once in a while I have an energy guest on and this one's actually quite interesting. So it's a company called Sigma Lithium. It's ticker SGML trades about nine dollars fifty cents a share. It's been a one billion dollar company. It's a Canadian company, but it minds in Brazil lithium obviously, hence the name, and the idea is to basically make green lithium. Can you make it cost competitively and how do you bring your own cost down? Now, lithium is used in pretty much everything, but in particular the batteries for electric vehicles, So if we want to make the transition to green, lithium is something that we're going to need. But how you green that is definitely the question. So joining us now is Anna Cabral. She's Signal Lithium co chair and CEO. The company just reported earnings yesterday. What stood out to me really was reduced cash costs by twenty two percent an increase in margins there. So we wanted to get some more insight into how all this works, how it is to go green and be sustainable mining lithium, and can you sell it for what kind of profit? Anna joins us now, Anna, thank you so much for joining us. Can you just talk us through for those of you who are on energy geeks, what the company does and what it's hoping.

Bloomberg Intelligence Radio. We are broadcasting to live from Interactive Broker Studio right here in Midtown Manhattan. Also check us out on YouTube. But you know, Bailey doesn't have his bro vesque, so the appeal for that is a little bit less. A Bay Lipshaltz in for Paul Sweeney. So, Bailey, I'm an energy geek nerd. I've been covering energy commodities for like seventeen and a half years, so welcome. So naturally, every once in a while I have an energy guest on and this one's actually quite interesting. So it's a company called Sigma Lithium. It's ticker SGML trades about nine dollars fifty cents a share. It's been a one billion dollar company. It's a Canadian company, but it minds in Brazil lithium obviously, hence the name, and the idea is to basically make green lithium. Can you make it cost competitively and how do you bring your own cost down? Now, lithium is used in pretty much everything, but in particular the batteries for electric vehicles, So if we want to make the transition to green, lithium is something that we're going to need. But how you green that is definitely the question. So joining us now is Anna Cabral. She's Signal Lithium co chair and CEO. The company just reported earnings yesterday. What stood out to me really was reduced cash costs by twenty two percent an increase in margins there. So we wanted to get some more insight into how all this works, how it is to go green and be sustainable mining lithium, and can you sell it for what kind of profit? Anna joins us now, Anna, thank you so much for joining us. Can you just talk us through for those of you who are on energy geeks, what the company does and what it's hoping.

To do.

To do.

Absolutely well.

Absolutely well.

Sigma has been is a twelve year old company. We've been operating for over a year now. We're celebrating a year of shipments, consistent monthly shipments and we ship an equivalent amount. We ship approximately two hundred and fifty thousand tons to two hundred and seven thousand tons annually, twenty two thousand tons monthly, which translated into a chemical measure, is the equivalent of approximately thirty eight thousand tons of letum carbonate equivalent. So that's what we do. This is who we are. We have shoe operations. They're very distinctive, but they're vertically integrated. We have a mine the mines letium rock, and then that rock gets fed into an industrial pre chemical plant where we process that rock into letium materials and at that we are producing zero carbon lithium. And so we're the only company in the world that produces zero carbon litium in scale.

Sigma has been is a twelve year old company. We've been operating for over a year now. We're celebrating a year of shipments, consistent monthly shipments and we ship an equivalent amount. We ship approximately two hundred and fifty thousand tons to two hundred and seven thousand tons annually, twenty two thousand tons monthly, which translated into a chemical measure, is the equivalent of approximately thirty eight thousand tons of letum carbonate equivalent. So that's what we do. This is who we are. We have shoe operations. They're very distinctive, but they're vertically integrated. We have a mine the mines letium rock, and then that rock gets fed into an industrial pre chemical plant where we process that rock into letium materials and at that we are producing zero carbon lithium. And so we're the only company in the world that produces zero carbon litium in scale.

And how as Alex pointed out, margins look great at least according to the results, and cash costs down twenty two percent.

And how as Alex pointed out, margins look great at least according to the results, and cash costs down twenty two percent.

How does that.

How does that.

Play out I'm just thinking, if I'm a car manufacturer, I probably want the cheapest lithium I can get my hands on because I also want to make money.

Play out I'm just thinking, if I'm a car manufacturer, I probably want the cheapest lithium I can get my hands on because I also want to make money.

That's the whole point.

That's the whole point.

There isn't a green premium. We have been able to premiumize our product based on different attributes. The product has a chemical and a physical characteristic which brings actual measurable cost savings of twenty to thirty percent to the supply chain. Either the car maker or the battery maker, whomever owns the product within the supply chain will benefit from those cost savings. That's the basis for premiumization, and we're very let's say reasonable about it. We have a commercially win commercial win win approach where we take about ten percent of that and then the client takes about twenty to twenty center of that. So is a win win situation. But there's no green premium. Everybody wants it, nobody wants to pay.

There isn't a green premium. We have been able to premiumize our product based on different attributes. The product has a chemical and a physical characteristic which brings actual measurable cost savings of twenty to thirty percent to the supply chain. Either the car maker or the battery maker, whomever owns the product within the supply chain will benefit from those cost savings. That's the basis for premiumization, and we're very let's say reasonable about it. We have a commercially win commercial win win approach where we take about ten percent of that and then the client takes about twenty to twenty center of that. So is a win win situation. But there's no green premium. Everybody wants it, nobody wants to pay.

For it exactly. That's one hundred percent what I keep hearing about as well. So what enabled you to do this sustainably in this area? Like is it? Can you replicate this anywhere in any mind? And then uh, and then concentration facility or was there something specific to this?

For it exactly. That's one hundred percent what I keep hearing about as well. So what enabled you to do this sustainably in this area? Like is it? Can you replicate this anywhere in any mind? And then uh, and then concentration facility or was there something specific to this?

There are number of factors. The first factor, let's talk about scope one. When you when you think about the common load of a product, can you need to think about what goes inside your operations, which is scope one. And then the kind of power energy used to to run these operations, which is what we call scope two. And then the effect that your product is going to have in a supply chain, which is scope three. Right, which is we're all in guess for example, has a problem. So when we when we made this investment here uh which which which was now twelve years ago, the objective was to reach eventually a point where we will deliver the most sustainable litum in the world. We ended up going zero CAB, but we started with scope one, meaning we designed when we chose technologies and a processing method that were not aggressive to the environment, that we're not going to leave a serious, unabatable carbon footprints such as tailing dams. We have zero tailing dams because we developed a dry stacking module. Water. The use of water in our industry is highly problematic. We use sewage water and we recite, we recycle that water. So we have what we call recirculation, reuse of sewage water, so we don't use fresh water, so it's zero fresh water, right, So these were elements, and then we chose separation methods that do not use toxic chemicals, so we have another zero, which is zero toxic chemicals. So this all happens in that in the stroke QUOD. So then you moved to the mind, what is the responsible of carbon footprint inside the gate scope? One on the mind is mainly diesel and nitrates in explosives a NFO. So we went out to minimize that trying to add bland biodiesel, biofuels, biodiesel with diesel, and then using electronic triggers electronic explosives to minimize the user nitrate, so we obtained a pretty sizable reduction. The result of it, right unabated, like the result of all of that, after going through the hard to obey after all of it, is that we ended up with inside one, meaning point twenty six tons of carbon per tonnel material. So we did all that work and we got to that low level, which meant that then we could go out and offset the rest with credits because we are inside one, which meant we had to do a huge effort to be inside one. Comparing to our piers in these salars in South America is typically five tons of carbon per ton, and we were a point two six and other minds in other parts of the world is fifteen tons of carbon in certain high cost minds in Asia it's fourty five tons. So uh, it wasn't enormous amount of work on Scope one, so scope too though, Yeah, no.

There are number of factors. The first factor, let's talk about scope one. When you when you think about the common load of a product, can you need to think about what goes inside your operations, which is scope one. And then the kind of power energy used to to run these operations, which is what we call scope two. And then the effect that your product is going to have in a supply chain, which is scope three. Right, which is we're all in guess for example, has a problem. So when we when we made this investment here uh which which which was now twelve years ago, the objective was to reach eventually a point where we will deliver the most sustainable litum in the world. We ended up going zero CAB, but we started with scope one, meaning we designed when we chose technologies and a processing method that were not aggressive to the environment, that we're not going to leave a serious, unabatable carbon footprints such as tailing dams. We have zero tailing dams because we developed a dry stacking module. Water. The use of water in our industry is highly problematic. We use sewage water and we recite, we recycle that water. So we have what we call recirculation, reuse of sewage water, so we don't use fresh water, so it's zero fresh water, right, So these were elements, and then we chose separation methods that do not use toxic chemicals, so we have another zero, which is zero toxic chemicals. So this all happens in that in the stroke QUOD. So then you moved to the mind, what is the responsible of carbon footprint inside the gate scope? One on the mind is mainly diesel and nitrates in explosives a NFO. So we went out to minimize that trying to add bland biodiesel, biofuels, biodiesel with diesel, and then using electronic triggers electronic explosives to minimize the user nitrate, so we obtained a pretty sizable reduction. The result of it, right unabated, like the result of all of that, after going through the hard to obey after all of it, is that we ended up with inside one, meaning point twenty six tons of carbon per tonnel material. So we did all that work and we got to that low level, which meant that then we could go out and offset the rest with credits because we are inside one, which meant we had to do a huge effort to be inside one. Comparing to our piers in these salars in South America is typically five tons of carbon per ton, and we were a point two six and other minds in other parts of the world is fifteen tons of carbon in certain high cost minds in Asia it's fourty five tons. So uh, it wasn't enormous amount of work on Scope one, so scope too though, Yeah, no.

Go ahead, We only have about the thirty forty seconds left. But I do want to know if you can replicate this elsewhere.

Go ahead, We only have about the thirty forty seconds left. But I do want to know if you can replicate this elsewhere.

Well, that's the point. I mean Scope two. We were blessed with the grid in Brazil, which meant that, you know, we have access to abundant available renewable energy, so that also contributes a lot. Because our Scope two is green, it's one hundred percent renewable. So we ended up with a situation that's hybrid. Could we replicate Yes, we can replicate Scope one, but then we will need to plug it into a renewable source. So that's kind of the uniqueness of what we do. He is a combination of technology. We have a highly benign a grid.

Well, that's the point. I mean Scope two. We were blessed with the grid in Brazil, which meant that, you know, we have access to abundant available renewable energy, so that also contributes a lot. Because our Scope two is green, it's one hundred percent renewable. So we ended up with a situation that's hybrid. Could we replicate Yes, we can replicate Scope one, but then we will need to plug it into a renewable source. So that's kind of the uniqueness of what we do. He is a combination of technology. We have a highly benign a grid.

Well, Ana, we really appreciate it. It's a really interesting story because so often we hear about how this just isn't possible, and it's nice to get that success story as well. Look forward to seeing your growth as well. On a cabral Sigma Lithium co chair and CEO of joining us on Sustainable Lithium. You good, none, Bailly, you got it like you to feel.

Well, Ana, we really appreciate it. It's a really interesting story because so often we hear about how this just isn't possible, and it's nice to get that success story as well. Look forward to seeing your growth as well. On a cabral Sigma Lithium co chair and CEO of joining us on Sustainable Lithium. You good, none, Bailly, you got it like you to feel.

I learned a lot, I will say, though I'm a big markets watcher as you know. Uh, Sigma lithium about a year ago north of thirty bucks right now trade and round nine.

I learned a lot, I will say, though I'm a big markets watcher as you know. Uh, Sigma lithium about a year ago north of thirty bucks right now trade and round nine.

I mean it's lithium prices they've just been I mean that's the thing. It's super cyclical. And look at what's happening with the auto demand. At the end of the day.

I mean it's lithium prices they've just been I mean that's the thing. It's super cyclical. And look at what's happening with the auto demand. At the end of the day.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Act. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Act. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

We have a really interesting guest coming up now. So Appian is an American cloud computing and enterprise software company. It's headquartered in McLean, Virginia. It's been around for quite a long time, and the CEO and founder, Matt Calkins of Appian joins us. Now, hey, Matt, just dumb question. What does your company do.

We have a really interesting guest coming up now. So Appian is an American cloud computing and enterprise software company. It's headquartered in McLean, Virginia. It's been around for quite a long time, and the CEO and founder, Matt Calkins of Appian joins us. Now, hey, Matt, just dumb question. What does your company do.

Hey, Alex, We do processes. You know, processes make the world go around. Every organization is composed of its unique processes, and we automate those processes, We orchestrate them, and we make them better over time using our expertise in most of all our software.

Hey, Alex, We do processes. You know, processes make the world go around. Every organization is composed of its unique processes, and we automate those processes, We orchestrate them, and we make them better over time using our expertise in most of all our software.

And how do you guys fit into kind of this AI wave? When I look at you know a number of stocks that have continued to rip and move higher, It doesn't seem like Appian has been caught up in that shift.

And how do you guys fit into kind of this AI wave? When I look at you know a number of stocks that have continued to rip and move higher, It doesn't seem like Appian has been caught up in that shift.

Well, we're not the highest profile member of the AI wave, but we're really pertinent to it. You see, every process is made up of work getting done, and some of that work is done by AI. So we've been selling AI for nearly a decade and we have a unique angle on it. Our angle is that AI should work with private data.

Well, we're not the highest profile member of the AI wave, but we're really pertinent to it. You see, every process is made up of work getting done, and some of that work is done by AI. So we've been selling AI for nearly a decade and we have a unique angle on it. Our angle is that AI should work with private data.

Right.

Right.

You shouldn't as a user, You should not have to divulge your data at all to an AI algorithm that you don't own. You should preserve the sanctity of your information and still be able to get great AI results. So we work with kind of a virtual database to allow that instead of asking that our customers give us their data.

You shouldn't as a user, You should not have to divulge your data at all to an AI algorithm that you don't own. You should preserve the sanctity of your information and still be able to get great AI results. So we work with kind of a virtual database to allow that instead of asking that our customers give us their data.

So that would totally fly in like the large language models that we're dealing with now, or they sort of sour uce all this public data or so pay Reddit to get their data. That's not that would be very different.

So that would totally fly in like the large language models that we're dealing with now, or they sort of sour uce all this public data or so pay Reddit to get their data. That's not that would be very different.

Well it's okay, yeah, I'm not talking about how you build the generic AI model. That's what you're talking about. You first training a generic model. I'm talking about how organizations like corporations are frequently asked to train an AI model after it's already incorporated all that public data. But train an AI model, which has certain downsides. It means that you've made an investment in a model you don't own. It means you've divulged your data and that that could be risky. It means you can only get one form of answer back from that algorithm, because no matter what security clearance the question has, you've all got the same base of data to ask against. It means it's hard to retrain that model. There's a lot of disadvantages to training an AI model, and we would like to find we do find a way to get great GENAI results without that training step.

Well it's okay, yeah, I'm not talking about how you build the generic AI model. That's what you're talking about. You first training a generic model. I'm talking about how organizations like corporations are frequently asked to train an AI model after it's already incorporated all that public data. But train an AI model, which has certain downsides. It means that you've made an investment in a model you don't own. It means you've divulged your data and that that could be risky. It means you can only get one form of answer back from that algorithm, because no matter what security clearance the question has, you've all got the same base of data to ask against. It means it's hard to retrain that model. There's a lot of disadvantages to training an AI model, and we would like to find we do find a way to get great GENAI results without that training step.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Do you guys have any marquee partnerships?

Do you guys have any marquee partnerships?

It just feels like in terms of kind of this AI boom you mentioned that you guys have been operating in the space for quite some time has drawn a lot of money from Microsoft, Google, you name it.

It just feels like in terms of kind of this AI boom you mentioned that you guys have been operating in the space for quite some time has drawn a lot of money from Microsoft, Google, you name it.

For sure. We work with all of them, but we're AWS centric, so that's our primary partnership and it has been for a couple of decades now. We're also one of their early pioneers with the clip.

For sure. We work with all of them, but we're AWS centric, so that's our primary partnership and it has been for a couple of decades now. We're also one of their early pioneers with the clip.

What do you think AI regulation should be and where is it now?

What do you think AI regulation should be and where is it now?

It's nowhere near where it should be, that's the answer.

It's nowhere near where it should be, that's the answer.

We have a regulation at all?

We have a regulation at all?

Yeah, we should have some. We should have some to establish a a fair and well understood set of ground rules so that we can all compete without uncertainty. That would be ideal. But today AI regulation is mostly about fear. It's mostly about stopping AI from doing something catastrophic, to quote the recent California proposal catastrophic instead of worrying about bread and butter concerns. Is AI infringing on people's intellectual property? As you make the next model? I think we're much too driven by fear and too little driven by just creating a fair playing field for all participants in this emerging industry, which really what we need, less uncertainty, less divergent regulation. Depending on where you're doing business, it's this in Colorado, it's that in Europe, etc. It would be better to just come up with a standard, and that standard should address the first harms that AI is committing, which are harms of a breach of intellectual property, rather than the eventual hypothetical harms that most legislation seems targeted to address.

Yeah, we should have some. We should have some to establish a a fair and well understood set of ground rules so that we can all compete without uncertainty. That would be ideal. But today AI regulation is mostly about fear. It's mostly about stopping AI from doing something catastrophic, to quote the recent California proposal catastrophic instead of worrying about bread and butter concerns. Is AI infringing on people's intellectual property? As you make the next model? I think we're much too driven by fear and too little driven by just creating a fair playing field for all participants in this emerging industry, which really what we need, less uncertainty, less divergent regulation. Depending on where you're doing business, it's this in Colorado, it's that in Europe, etc. It would be better to just come up with a standard, and that standard should address the first harms that AI is committing, which are harms of a breach of intellectual property, rather than the eventual hypothetical harms that most legislation seems targeted to address.

And how would that actually, in your view, come to fruition.

And how would that actually, in your view, come to fruition.

It just feels like the kind of climate and DC maybe wouldn't be as conducive to actually implementing some of these practices at this point in time.

It just feels like the kind of climate and DC maybe wouldn't be as conducive to actually implementing some of these practices at this point in time.

Look, I live near DC and it's paralyzed right now. We're all thinking about the election. But I do have a proposal. I think that we should begin with a few broad statements like a bill Wright's almost around AI. I think AI should disclose its data sources. That would raise everybody's visibility into what's going on in AI and allow us to better figure out where the value is truly coming from. It's coming from the data more than we realize. And then for private data, privately identifiable information, and copyright information, all of that should be used with permission and compensation. So if we started with just that full disclosure and permission and compensation for all private information, I think we would have a fair baseline for how you're allowed to build an AI algorithm. You'd have good transparency, we'd be better understand what this technology really means. And then also it we'd actually be helping the industry become more valuable because we'd shift it out of the current race for information into something far more important, the race for trust.

Look, I live near DC and it's paralyzed right now. We're all thinking about the election. But I do have a proposal. I think that we should begin with a few broad statements like a bill Wright's almost around AI. I think AI should disclose its data sources. That would raise everybody's visibility into what's going on in AI and allow us to better figure out where the value is truly coming from. It's coming from the data more than we realize. And then for private data, privately identifiable information, and copyright information, all of that should be used with permission and compensation. So if we started with just that full disclosure and permission and compensation for all private information, I think we would have a fair baseline for how you're allowed to build an AI algorithm. You'd have good transparency, we'd be better understand what this technology really means. And then also it we'd actually be helping the industry become more valuable because we'd shift it out of the current race for information into something far more important, the race for trust.

Matt, that is your day job. That is the job that you've had for a long time. But you also have a side gig, and apparently you're super big into board gaming as am I I feel you on that. But you also make up your own board games. Is this true? Because I am so jealous?

Matt, that is your day job. That is the job that you've had for a long time. But you also have a side gig, and apparently you're super big into board gaming as am I I feel you on that. But you also make up your own board games. Is this true? Because I am so jealous?

I do.

I do.

I love it, and I've been designing board games for a couple of decades now, and I've got several in print, and it's a great pleasure to see other people playing them. It's one of my favorite things.

I love it, and I've been designing board games for a couple of decades now, and I've got several in print, and it's a great pleasure to see other people playing them. It's one of my favorite things.

Do you have like a favorite like? Is there one game either that you play that's not yours, and then the game that you created.

Do you have like a favorite like? Is there one game either that you play that's not yours, and then the game that you created.

Okay, it's hard for me to pick favorites amongst my own, but I guess I'd have to point to Sekigahara, which is still rated one of the top war games ever written, even though it was written more than a decade ago. That was a real pleasure to write. And my latest is called Chariots here about racing chariots by making simple card combinations. My favorites to play that I did not write would have to include power Grid, Acquire and Automobile.

Okay, it's hard for me to pick favorites amongst my own, but I guess I'd have to point to Sekigahara, which is still rated one of the top war games ever written, even though it was written more than a decade ago. That was a real pleasure to write. And my latest is called Chariots here about racing chariots by making simple card combinations. My favorites to play that I did not write would have to include power Grid, Acquire and Automobile.

Oh, I don't know, power Grid.

Oh, I don't know, power Grid.

I need to get that.

I need to get that.

I just put on.

I just put on.

I'll be the dumbest person in this conversation. Are these thinking games? Do I have to be like ready to have to think?

I'll be the dumbest person in this conversation. Are these thinking games? Do I have to be like ready to have to think?

Yeah, you'll do better if you think for sure. In fact, that's the fun of it. It gives me something to think about, a competition to engage your mind.

Yeah, you'll do better if you think for sure. In fact, that's the fun of it. It gives me something to think about, a competition to engage your mind.

Okay, that's a barely answer that question.

Okay, that's a barely answer that question.

Every day when we answer the anchor, do I have to think?

Every day when we answer the anchor, do I have to think?

Well, normally, I mean that's a TVD.

Well, normally, I mean that's a TVD.

To be honest, I'm a Yazi fan. I like to you know, you roll the die, you pick out the die. It's pretty straightforward strategy.

To be honest, I'm a Yazi fan. I like to you know, you roll the die, you pick out the die. It's pretty straightforward strategy.

There's some decisions, and if there weren't, it wouldn't be fun.

There's some decisions, and if there weren't, it wouldn't be fun.

I mean, I'm totally I'm totally okay, I'm gonna check those out. That was really great. We really appreciate it. Matt Calkins, thank you so much. A founder and CEO of Appy and joining us Nasdaq ticker is a p P. And wait, so you guys don't like have parties in Jersey with board games?

I mean, I'm totally I'm totally okay, I'm gonna check those out. That was really great. We really appreciate it. Matt Calkins, thank you so much. A founder and CEO of Appy and joining us Nasdaq ticker is a p P. And wait, so you guys don't like have parties in Jersey with board games?

Okay? So I love board games, so I didn't. I didn't want to downplay it. Okay, but I like Yati you play? Were you part of that code games? I guess yeah, maybe not. Board games is code names. It's a card game.

Okay? So I love board games, so I didn't. I didn't want to downplay it. Okay, but I like Yati you play? Were you part of that code games? I guess yeah, maybe not. Board games is code names. It's a card game.

It's it's a card Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. Okay, code name.

It's it's a card Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. Okay, code name.

So you like the code name names, Yazi, Yati? Have you played Chameleon?

So you like the code name names, Yazi, Yati? Have you played Chameleon?

No?

No?

Chameleons a lot of fun? Okay, it's good. I know you're not like, I don't know. If you go to breweries, it's good brewery game.

Chameleons a lot of fun? Okay, it's good. I know you're not like, I don't know. If you go to breweries, it's good brewery game.

It's a good brewery game. Okay. I mean, my daughter's not quite old enough for that, but it's a fair point. I'm a Katon person, so that's see.

It's a good brewery game. Okay. I mean, my daughter's not quite old enough for that, but it's a fair point. I'm a Katon person, so that's see.

I haven't put in the effort to learn how to play it.

I haven't put in the effort to learn how to play it.

Every once you do play oh man, Yeah, okay, the first time is a slog and it's confusing and then it might break up your marriage. But once I get past that point, it's so good. We're also playing Pandemic Legacy. That's interesting. Anyway, we digress. Bailey's looking at me like.

Every once you do play oh man, Yeah, okay, the first time is a slog and it's confusing and then it might break up your marriage. But once I get past that point, it's so good. We're also playing Pandemic Legacy. That's interesting. Anyway, we digress. Bailey's looking at me like.

I don't know what you're talking about. But JT's gonna come over. We'll play some Gaitan and build some roos.

I don't know what you're talking about. But JT's gonna come over. We'll play some Gaitan and build some roos.

Oh.

Oh.

I see what he's doing, and he's like, come over and then fix my leak or whatever.

I see what he's doing, and he's like, come over and then fix my leak or whatever.

This is the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast, available on Apples, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live each weekday ten am to noon Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal

This is the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast, available on Apples, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live each weekday ten am to noon Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal