My next guest is an Emmy Award winning television broadcaster and journalist and a New York Times bestselling author of sports biographies on Pete Merrivitch, Joe Namath, and Ray Boom Boom Mancini. He's out with a new book, Baddest Man, The Making of Mike Tyson. Please welcome, my buddy. I haven't talked to him for a long time, but it's great to see him. The one and only Mark Kriegeler is right here.

My next guest is an Emmy Award winning television broadcaster and journalist and a New York Times bestselling author of sports biographies on Pete Merrivitch, Joe Namath, and Ray Boom Boom Mancini. He's out with a new book, Baddest Man, The Making of Mike Tyson. Please welcome, my buddy. I haven't talked to him for a long time, but it's great to see him. The one and only Mark Kriegeler is right here.

What's up, big time? How are you man? Long time? How you been I'm good. It's great to see you too. Man, the hardest working man in the sports business. Just on the grind, Just on the grind, man.

What's up, big time? How are you man? Long time? How you been I'm good. It's great to see you too. Man, the hardest working man in the sports business. Just on the grind, Just on the grind, man.

Let's get right to this because there's a lot that's going on. You are a young reporter at the New York Daily News in the eighties when you were swept up into Mike Tyson Hurricane per se. How did y'all meet?

Let's get right to this because there's a lot that's going on. You are a young reporter at the New York Daily News in the eighties when you were swept up into Mike Tyson Hurricane per se. How did y'all meet?

Let's get that out the way. What was that like? My first Tyson assignment was shitty. Editor me up about four in the morning. He went up to haulm go to tap of Dan's my will? What's tap it dance like? Well? But no it's a clothing store. Go get up there, and as you said, I got caught up in that that swirl. A couple of weeks later, I get a call he'd torn up the place in Bernrangeville. He was living with. Robin Gibbings write that I covered his trial, covered his fights. I didn't become columnists until ninety one. If you remember when we met, we used to talk about basketball. You were covering high schools, yeah, and I was. I was a city side report. I mean we talked about like Fly Williams. I'd spent a lot of time in Brownsville as a police reporter. Anyway, I covered his stuff, but it wasn't until and I'm ashamed to say this, twenty twelve. And he had been the villain in my column for years, both at the Post and the News. Wasn't until twenty twelve that I actually looked on him as something different. I covered his one man show in preview in Vegas and it was not polished up yet. It was still raw. And I listened to it and it was fully confessional and eviscerating. But I found myself like holding back tears, and this is a guy I just killed. I was having a bad day, like well, I got Mike Tyes in the bash and we met after the show and I told him about you know, Mitch and running around with all the robing craziness, and he says to me, how'd that make you feel? And he was, I think, newly sober and vegan in that time or whatever. I said, what do you mean how to make me feel? What was that like? And he meant like chasing him around? Thought about it, and I thought about the the adrenaline of it, and I told him it was like it was it was a form of getting high. And he nodded at me, not disapprovingly, but just in sort of recognition. And to me, that was the day he became like fully human to me, not an abstraction, a real real guy. And I didn't the publisher broke this idea, would you do Tyson? Because I owe the publisher money on something else, and the publisher broch this idea, and I was like, I don't. Hell no, I ain't doing Tyson because my feeling has always been whether they cooperate with me or not, I don't care, but I have to love them. And I didn't love Mike Tyson. I kind of do now. But I didn't then, And I said, no, I ain't doing Mike Tyson, I torn my hamstring. So what made so? What made you decide to do it? What made you decide to do it? I thought about him. I wasn't I torn my hamstring. I'm not in my right mind. I'm thinking about it. That god friend of mine says, you can't give money back to the publisher at your duty as a writer. I started thinking about, like who I was then, who I am now? And I thought about that day in Vegas and what the guy had survived, and how I wasn't necessarily wrong, but I was pretty pig headed in vain about a lot of the stuff I wrote in the nineties, not proud of all of it. And I started thinking about what he had survived, woos drugs, Brownsville, that that whole generation of like stick up kids just blown off the face of the earth, got it boxing itself fain. He was famous in a kind of way that will kill you. That you know, that killed Elvis, that probably killed Tupac.

Let's get that out the way. What was that like? My first Tyson assignment was shitty. Editor me up about four in the morning. He went up to haulm go to tap of Dan's my will? What's tap it dance like? Well? But no it's a clothing store. Go get up there, and as you said, I got caught up in that that swirl. A couple of weeks later, I get a call he'd torn up the place in Bernrangeville. He was living with. Robin Gibbings write that I covered his trial, covered his fights. I didn't become columnists until ninety one. If you remember when we met, we used to talk about basketball. You were covering high schools, yeah, and I was. I was a city side report. I mean we talked about like Fly Williams. I'd spent a lot of time in Brownsville as a police reporter. Anyway, I covered his stuff, but it wasn't until and I'm ashamed to say this, twenty twelve. And he had been the villain in my column for years, both at the Post and the News. Wasn't until twenty twelve that I actually looked on him as something different. I covered his one man show in preview in Vegas and it was not polished up yet. It was still raw. And I listened to it and it was fully confessional and eviscerating. But I found myself like holding back tears, and this is a guy I just killed. I was having a bad day, like well, I got Mike Tyes in the bash and we met after the show and I told him about you know, Mitch and running around with all the robing craziness, and he says to me, how'd that make you feel? And he was, I think, newly sober and vegan in that time or whatever. I said, what do you mean how to make me feel? What was that like? And he meant like chasing him around? Thought about it, and I thought about the the adrenaline of it, and I told him it was like it was it was a form of getting high. And he nodded at me, not disapprovingly, but just in sort of recognition. And to me, that was the day he became like fully human to me, not an abstraction, a real real guy. And I didn't the publisher broke this idea, would you do Tyson? Because I owe the publisher money on something else, and the publisher broch this idea, and I was like, I don't. Hell no, I ain't doing Tyson because my feeling has always been whether they cooperate with me or not, I don't care, but I have to love them. And I didn't love Mike Tyson. I kind of do now. But I didn't then, And I said, no, I ain't doing Mike Tyson, I torn my hamstring. So what made so? What made you decide to do it? What made you decide to do it? I thought about him. I wasn't I torn my hamstring. I'm not in my right mind. I'm thinking about it. That god friend of mine says, you can't give money back to the publisher at your duty as a writer. I started thinking about, like who I was then, who I am now? And I thought about that day in Vegas and what the guy had survived, and how I wasn't necessarily wrong, but I was pretty pig headed in vain about a lot of the stuff I wrote in the nineties, not proud of all of it. And I started thinking about what he had survived, woos drugs, Brownsville, that that whole generation of like stick up kids just blown off the face of the earth, got it boxing itself fain. He was famous in a kind of way that will kill you. That you know, that killed Elvis, that probably killed Tupac.

Yeah, but Mark, let me go here, let me go here. We thought we've heard everything about Mike Tyson, like when you're talking about drugs, fame, you know, alcohol, women, whatever it is. You know, we heard it all before in our eyes. What is it about Mike Tyson that we're gonna learn in this book that we don't already know? Considering the fact that he was an open book, he was on Front Street. In terms of the fame, we saw him doing his his his you know, like you said, in Vegas, Broadway and other places. Spike Lee was producing these one man shows. We seem to have known everything about him. What is it that we're gonna learn? Give us a nugget of what we're going to learn in this book that we haven't already heard about Mike Tyson.

Yeah, but Mark, let me go here, let me go here. We thought we've heard everything about Mike Tyson, like when you're talking about drugs, fame, you know, alcohol, women, whatever it is. You know, we heard it all before in our eyes. What is it about Mike Tyson that we're gonna learn in this book that we don't already know? Considering the fact that he was an open book, he was on Front Street. In terms of the fame, we saw him doing his his his you know, like you said, in Vegas, Broadway and other places. Spike Lee was producing these one man shows. We seem to have known everything about him. What is it that we're gonna learn? Give us a nugget of what we're going to learn in this book that we haven't already heard about Mike Tyson.

I think to be human, human like you know, there's there's an incredible loss there that I don't think he can ever feel. I think probably the closest thing he came to filling it is right now. He got his life right with with Kiki, his wife. But you know, the loss of his mother was some It was a hole he couldn't fill the relationship with his father. I think that the idea, the way that this fame was constructed, the way he was built as a fighter, it's still relevant today. He drew one hundred, one hundred and eight million people saw him live stream with Jake Paul. Jake Paul's pretty good promoter, but he could have only done that number with Tyson. The question is why why we addicted to him? Why did he come back? Why was you know, the third act of a fighter's life is almost inevitably the tragic one. He's disproved everything, So I think you're going to find that that he's a human being in this and a lot of it has to do with accavating his past as an amateur as a kid. You know, there are certain things that run through this. One of the first people I spoke to was was his brother. His half brother was a running back at Purdue quit went off to go find himself. Really bright guy, and you could see certain things like that run through the Tyson family. First, the guy was a great athlete. Second of all, he's really really bright and he was searching. And I think that was that's not unlike Tyson. The other element to it. I think that there'll never be another fighter that comes up like this. He had literary cachet before he had street credit. The all the writers, some of them great, some of them were like my rabbis, my teachers, guys like Pete Hamill were so in love with custom Model that this fable cussing the kid cus to Model was the original trainer took him out of a juvenile pension and saved him. You know, I think that there's something to that that deserves more nuanced, that deserves to be deserves to be looked at again.

I think to be human, human like you know, there's there's an incredible loss there that I don't think he can ever feel. I think probably the closest thing he came to filling it is right now. He got his life right with with Kiki, his wife. But you know, the loss of his mother was some It was a hole he couldn't fill the relationship with his father. I think that the idea, the way that this fame was constructed, the way he was built as a fighter, it's still relevant today. He drew one hundred, one hundred and eight million people saw him live stream with Jake Paul. Jake Paul's pretty good promoter, but he could have only done that number with Tyson. The question is why why we addicted to him? Why did he come back? Why was you know, the third act of a fighter's life is almost inevitably the tragic one. He's disproved everything, So I think you're going to find that that he's a human being in this and a lot of it has to do with accavating his past as an amateur as a kid. You know, there are certain things that run through this. One of the first people I spoke to was was his brother. His half brother was a running back at Purdue quit went off to go find himself. Really bright guy, and you could see certain things like that run through the Tyson family. First, the guy was a great athlete. Second of all, he's really really bright and he was searching. And I think that was that's not unlike Tyson. The other element to it. I think that there'll never be another fighter that comes up like this. He had literary cachet before he had street credit. The all the writers, some of them great, some of them were like my rabbis, my teachers, guys like Pete Hamill were so in love with custom Model that this fable cussing the kid cus to Model was the original trainer took him out of a juvenile pension and saved him. You know, I think that there's something to that that deserves more nuanced, that deserves to be deserves to be looked at again.

Go on, what do you believe or when do you believe that Tyson?

Go on, what do you believe or when do you believe that Tyson?

In your eyes?

In your eyes?

What was the point when we talk about him being humanized per se? He talked about needing to be animalistic, needing to be the kind of individual that he needs to be in order to be a boxing champion in the heavyweight division. When do you think the side you know, where his humanity is being shown? What do you think it hit and does the book reveal that? Was it the whole Robin Gibbons affair. Was it having to deal with Don King? Was it the fact that he looked at his own mortality, particularly in the aftermath of losing to a Vander Holyfield and biting Evander holy Field's ear? What was the defining moment for the transformation per Se that you believe is in is in Mike Tyson's head where he reached the point where he said, Yo, I can't I can't be this person anymore.

What was the point when we talk about him being humanized per se? He talked about needing to be animalistic, needing to be the kind of individual that he needs to be in order to be a boxing champion in the heavyweight division. When do you think the side you know, where his humanity is being shown? What do you think it hit and does the book reveal that? Was it the whole Robin Gibbons affair. Was it having to deal with Don King? Was it the fact that he looked at his own mortality, particularly in the aftermath of losing to a Vander Holyfield and biting Evander holy Field's ear? What was the defining moment for the transformation per Se that you believe is in is in Mike Tyson's head where he reached the point where he said, Yo, I can't I can't be this person anymore.

I need to be better. I think. Look, this book is the first of two volumes. This ends with with with the Sphinx fight. But I think it came. I think the reformation, you know, the final blows came with losing a daughter, marrying Kiki and getting sod. But you talk about you know, he talks about wanting and needing to be an animal. His words, not mine. But the irony is that custom mottol was And this is this is why I think the history needs to be re examined. Cuts. The motto was famous for almost a theology of the bully. How do you beat a bully? When? When? When? When Ali was fighting Foreman, he consulted with custom motto and it was the mottola that you run across the ring and you smack him in the mouth, hit him with the right hand. Okay. The irony is that Cuts, whether by design or it just happened, Cuss rays might to be a bully. There's never been a guy that was that scared. Uh scary, I mean he was scared too. But that the way that he used a fear to inflict on other fighters. There's as a passage in the book as a matchmaker, a pretty good matchmaker named Ron Katz, and he remembers early in his career he'd have to push guys out of the dressing room in order to fight Tyson. So somewhere along the line, I mean, Custo motto was famous for making Troy Patterson the youngest heavyweight champion until Mike. Until Mike Tyson, no one wanted anything to do with Sonny Listing. But somehow Mike became the studdy listed and somehow the way I think people wanted a Sonny listen at that time, the rules changed. The other thing with Cus, let me just if I could one more thing about Cuss and if Mike. Mike pushed back on this with me. When I said, hey, maybe it's not like the smartest thing in the world to take a kid who's been in and out of spot right and put him under hypnosis and tell them you're going to be a scourge from God. I go, maybe that's not like the way the way to do it. And I said to me, what Cuss was asking you to do is make him live forever. It was a Faustian bargain. Make make the coach immortal. And he's and you know, I think he credits Cus was saving him and getting it. He goes, well, well didn't die, didn't I make him immortal? And yes he did. My question is at what price? At what price?

I need to be better. I think. Look, this book is the first of two volumes. This ends with with with the Sphinx fight. But I think it came. I think the reformation, you know, the final blows came with losing a daughter, marrying Kiki and getting sod. But you talk about you know, he talks about wanting and needing to be an animal. His words, not mine. But the irony is that custom mottol was And this is this is why I think the history needs to be re examined. Cuts. The motto was famous for almost a theology of the bully. How do you beat a bully? When? When? When? When Ali was fighting Foreman, he consulted with custom motto and it was the mottola that you run across the ring and you smack him in the mouth, hit him with the right hand. Okay. The irony is that Cuts, whether by design or it just happened, Cuss rays might to be a bully. There's never been a guy that was that scared. Uh scary, I mean he was scared too. But that the way that he used a fear to inflict on other fighters. There's as a passage in the book as a matchmaker, a pretty good matchmaker named Ron Katz, and he remembers early in his career he'd have to push guys out of the dressing room in order to fight Tyson. So somewhere along the line, I mean, Custo motto was famous for making Troy Patterson the youngest heavyweight champion until Mike. Until Mike Tyson, no one wanted anything to do with Sonny Listing. But somehow Mike became the studdy listed and somehow the way I think people wanted a Sonny listen at that time, the rules changed. The other thing with Cus, let me just if I could one more thing about Cuss and if Mike. Mike pushed back on this with me. When I said, hey, maybe it's not like the smartest thing in the world to take a kid who's been in and out of spot right and put him under hypnosis and tell them you're going to be a scourge from God. I go, maybe that's not like the way the way to do it. And I said to me, what Cuss was asking you to do is make him live forever. It was a Faustian bargain. Make make the coach immortal. And he's and you know, I think he credits Cus was saving him and getting it. He goes, well, well didn't die, didn't I make him immortal? And yes he did. My question is at what price? At what price?

And that's a very legitimate question because I got to ask you this. First of all, did Mike Tyson authorize this book?

And that's a very legitimate question because I got to ask you this. First of all, did Mike Tyson authorize this book?

So he did not? I don't know you had these don't do it like that. I mean we spoke a couple of times to get some ground rule. He was not to me. He was very generous, you know, never been antagonistic. And you know when people typically what would happen is people calling me, see if it's okay, So go called keekey. She'll tell you if it's cool or not. And most of the time it was yes, we have the same we have the same agent as it as it happens. But uh, anyway, I to answer your question, no, but but but he was could give me everything, every everything I needed. But that's what I'm wondering.

So he did not? I don't know you had these don't do it like that. I mean we spoke a couple of times to get some ground rule. He was not to me. He was very generous, you know, never been antagonistic. And you know when people typically what would happen is people calling me, see if it's okay, So go called keekey. She'll tell you if it's cool or not. And most of the time it was yes, we have the same we have the same agent as it as it happens. But uh, anyway, I to answer your question, no, but but but he was could give me everything, every everything I needed. But that's what I'm wondering.

So if he's ghibing you everything that he needed that you needed to write the book, on him.

So if he's ghibing you everything that he needed that you needed to write the book, on him.

Why would he authorize it? But I mean what I mean, I don't want to be in business with him. I mean I don't. I've never asked any in other words like like for instance, I want to do a book about Joe Namas, and I understand like like Joe thought of it in his world as as a as a licensing deal. He wanted money, he wants I don't want to be in busines this Maravich passed away man Cen. He cooperated fully. I had no expectation that Mike Tyson understood retell his life, you know from Mark Kriegle for for free. I just was like, hey, let's let me, let me do what I got to do. And he was okay, and I was more than I could have totally understand, totally understand.

Why would he authorize it? But I mean what I mean, I don't want to be in business with him. I mean I don't. I've never asked any in other words like like for instance, I want to do a book about Joe Namas, and I understand like like Joe thought of it in his world as as a as a licensing deal. He wanted money, he wants I don't want to be in busines this Maravich passed away man Cen. He cooperated fully. I had no expectation that Mike Tyson understood retell his life, you know from Mark Kriegle for for free. I just was like, hey, let's let me, let me do what I got to do. And he was okay, and I was more than I could have totally understand, totally understand.

Did Mike Tyson ever speak about the Michael Speakes fight, because if you remember, I know you remember this, I remember this that I believe it was Butcher Lewis the late promoter God rested, so I think it was him. Speakes was in the locker room crying because he had to come out and fight Mike Tyson. But Mike didn't know that, and he was punching walls because he thought that Spinks was, you know, using it as a delay tactic, when in fact it was Spakes was scared to death that Mike Tyson never talk about that at all.

Did Mike Tyson ever speak about the Michael Speakes fight, because if you remember, I know you remember this, I remember this that I believe it was Butcher Lewis the late promoter God rested, so I think it was him. Speakes was in the locker room crying because he had to come out and fight Mike Tyson. But Mike didn't know that, and he was punching walls because he thought that Spinks was, you know, using it as a delay tactic, when in fact it was Spakes was scared to death that Mike Tyson never talk about that at all.

No, no, no, it ends it ends on that. That's that's a pretty well known incident. But he does, he does put his hand, he does put his hand through the wall waiting. But there was a controversy because Butch Lewis started some stuff. Thought he was get in Mike's head, okay, and Butch Lewis comes back there and says retape he wants him to repay because I ain't retaping anything. I'm god. And it gets into a whole thing with the New Jersey Athletic Commission. Yeah, there were there were reports that Sphinx was scared by the way Spinx was like, no Trump. Spinx was a great courageous fighter. Yeah, Mark, you're talking to me. You're talking to me. Mark.

No, no, no, it ends it ends on that. That's that's a pretty well known incident. But he does, he does put his hand, he does put his hand through the wall waiting. But there was a controversy because Butch Lewis started some stuff. Thought he was get in Mike's head, okay, and Butch Lewis comes back there and says retape he wants him to repay because I ain't retaping anything. I'm god. And it gets into a whole thing with the New Jersey Athletic Commission. Yeah, there were there were reports that Sphinx was scared by the way Spinx was like, no Trump. Spinx was a great courageous fighter. Yeah, Mark, you're talking to me. You're talking to me. Mark.

Spink was a light heavyweight that moved up. He was not too heavyweight.

Spink was a light heavyweight that moved up. He was not too heavyweight.

Come on, Mike, no, but hold up. But here's the thing. Eddie Fudge had a plan. Mike fades after six rounds, stick and move, Stick and move. Have to be disciplined, and butch Lewis the Genius City Was goes right across and tells Michael listen, man to get that man. You gotta get your respect immediately. And that's what Sphinx does. And that was I mean, look, it was only a matter of time anyway. But Sphinx runs across, tries to throw a right hand, and he just gets smoked because he went to engage immediately. He listened. He listened instead of listening to Eddie Futch. You know, he might have had a shot for a little bit. Look at Mark Kriegel.

Come on, Mike, no, but hold up. But here's the thing. Eddie Fudge had a plan. Mike fades after six rounds, stick and move, Stick and move. Have to be disciplined, and butch Lewis the Genius City Was goes right across and tells Michael listen, man to get that man. You gotta get your respect immediately. And that's what Sphinx does. And that was I mean, look, it was only a matter of time anyway. But Sphinx runs across, tries to throw a right hand, and he just gets smoked because he went to engage immediately. He listened. He listened instead of listening to Eddie Futch. You know, he might have had a shot for a little bit. Look at Mark Kriegel.

I gotta get my glasses because I don't see what the hell you saying in that guy. I didn't see Spink walk over to the ring and try to engage Mike. He looked scared.

I gotta get my glasses because I don't see what the hell you saying in that guy. I didn't see Spink walk over to the ring and try to engage Mike. He looked scared.

From opening tap. I mean, he wasn't on.

From opening tap. I mean, he wasn't on.

His bicycle, but he tried to engage Mike.

His bicycle, but he tried to engage Mike.

Mike Tyson, come on down. I didn't see that. I'm not saying he wasn't scared. I'm not saying he wasn't scared, but he does go to engage him, and he tried, and he tried. Even when he tried to get up, he comes right back after him. And he's throwing the right hand when he receives the crew de grap got you last question was you?

Mike Tyson, come on down. I didn't see that. I'm not saying he wasn't scared. I'm not saying he wasn't scared, but he does go to engage him, and he tried, and he tried. Even when he tried to get up, he comes right back after him. And he's throwing the right hand when he receives the crew de grap got you last question was you?

Because I gotta get ready to go and I can't wait to see I can't wait to read this book. I'm gonna ask you this question any end. Who is Mike Tyson today? And is he happy?

Because I gotta get ready to go and I can't wait to see I can't wait to read this book. I'm gonna ask you this question any end. Who is Mike Tyson today? And is he happy?

Happier than he's ever been, happier than he's ever been, and for the first time in his life, he's his love. That that's not anything that I could have imagined. And I think like the great victory And this is where people like I had been his consistent you know, detractors or haters, and people who adored him and even Mike himself could agree on he was never supposed to be long for this world. His doom was like that was the safest bet, you know, if you're gonna bet Mike Tyson's life expectancy, you're gonna bet the under And here he is, He's beloved, and I think that's that's really the beauty of the story. And it's a destination that I mean, no one I know could have imagined.

Happier than he's ever been, happier than he's ever been, and for the first time in his life, he's his love. That that's not anything that I could have imagined. And I think like the great victory And this is where people like I had been his consistent you know, detractors or haters, and people who adored him and even Mike himself could agree on he was never supposed to be long for this world. His doom was like that was the safest bet, you know, if you're gonna bet Mike Tyson's life expectancy, you're gonna bet the under And here he is, He's beloved, and I think that's that's really the beauty of the story. And it's a destination that I mean, no one I know could have imagined.

Wow, Mark Kriegel, the Baddest Man. The Making of Mike Tyson is out tomorrow, June third, wherever you buy your books. Mark Kriegel's good to see you, man, it's been a long time man, Happy to see you.

Wow, Mark Kriegel, the Baddest Man. The Making of Mike Tyson is out tomorrow, June third, wherever you buy your books. Mark Kriegel's good to see you, man, it's been a long time man, Happy to see you.

What'll take you these? All right? All right one only Mark creegl right here with Steven Ales.

What'll take you these? All right? All right one only Mark creegl right here with Steven Ales.