There's this warm, sharp, incredibly funny show on HBO Max called Starstruck. Oh the other day, I was in Australia. I was looking for something to watch and I saw this and I thought, well, let me give it a go. It's kind of like Nodding Hill, but with way more awkwardness and humanity and hilarity. Rose Mattifao is not only the star as Jesse, a New Zealander in London who has a one night stand with Tom movie star. She also wrote the show is a famous actor and you were a little rat nobody hash, but it's true. Each episode is around twenty two minutes long, so you can consume the whole season and really a little more than two hours. It's one of those shows where there are ups and downs, but there's no trauma. There's nothing horrific. It's just fun and warm and sweet, eat and loving. And so if you have a chance, check out Starstruck, which is not getting nearly the attention it deserves from luminary. This is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist, So on the Roxande Gay Agenda, I like to talk about whatever is on my mind, and then I talked with people who are really interesting to find out what's on their mind. On this week's agenda, Art and the collection thereof. As I've mentioned on this show before, I came to art collecting rather late in life, because for many years I admired art in museums, but I never ever thought it was something that I could own in my home because I would only really read about art when it came to these massive, multimillion dollar sales. And then I met my wife, Debbie, who has been an avid art collector for nearly thirty years, and she showed me that there are all kinds of price points between four dogs at a poker table and bosc yacht. I started trolling around art auctions and going to galleries and meeting artists. So I started slowly building a collection, and like many collections, it has now spiraled somewhat out of control. But I just love it because every day I get to look around my home and see art that intrigues and challenges and provokes me. At the same time, though there is a bit of a challenge, sometimes there's a whole world to navigate as an art collector. And if you're not wealthy or white, or heterosexual and sort of the kinds of people they expect to see collecting, you can run into all kinds of I don't know what the word is, but challenges is the bigist sort of container for it. Not everybody gets to buy the art that they want. Galleries like to make strategic choices about who they're going to sell art to, and oftentimes black collectors are not on that list. You also, there's a whole lingo you have to figure out how to negotiate the price and make a good case for yourself. In many ways, you have to audition to spend your own hard earned money, and it can be for someone like me who resists authority incredibly frustrating, and so I find myself mostly getting my art through auctions and charity events, and of course just going directly to artists and developing relationships with them if I admire their practice. Regardless though, what it really is about is not an investment for me. It is just being able to be part of an artistic community and engage with artists who do something so different from what I do but also incredibly similar. We're all just trying to make beautiful and interesting things to leave in the world. And that brings me to today's guest. I have three pieces by Barbara Kruger in my collection. One is called Surveillance, is Your Busy Work, another is Blind Idealism is Deadly, and the last, the most recent one, is I Shop Therefore I Am. These are all interesting, witty pieces, and every day I look at them and I smile. Barbara Krueger is one of the great artists of our time. Her work is bold, provocative, and visually arresting. She pulls apart the intersections between gender, feminism, consumerism, and power using principles of graphic design and propaganda. You might, in fact say her work is its own kind of propaganda, challenging the strictures of oppression and marginalization that far too many people in this world face today. She lives and works in Los Angeles, and she joins me via zoom. Barbara Krueger, thank you so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Happy to be here, wonderful as an artist. Does it feel strange for someone else to quote unquote own your work? I wouldn't say it felt strange, No, You know, when I first started beginning to think I could call myself an artist. The notion of selling my work would have been well, it was ridiculous because it didn't happen. For a long time. For many of us, the idea of showing had nothing to do with selling. So one continues one's practice and one's work regardless of whether it is border sold. I have little discomfort about finally being able to make money off of what I do, because for so many years I didn't. I never really thought much about being an artist artist. I have maybe a year and a half of school, no undergraduate or graduate degrees anywhere. The so called art world, which at that time was twelve white guys in Lower Manhattan, was incredibly you know, forbidding and narrow place. So you know now, I know when you entered the art world you initially felt marginalized and were you know, especially at that time, and not much frankly has changed, where women still are dealing with a lot of systemic issues. Do you still feel that way that you are sort of working as an outsider inside the art world. No, No, I would be deluded to feel that way. Uh, it's still in many ways, and I've said this before, really astounds me that people know my name and my work, because although I've worked hard and tried to be vigilant about the meanings I'm making, who is seen and who is not can be so arbitrary in the cruelest of ways, and the fact that I have emerged visibly the way I have is it's both incredibly gratifying and a goof wow. I never expected this kind of visibility and prominence, and I never take it for granted. Do you enjoy this kind of visibility and prominence. I am an incredibly self conscious person and all the publicness involved really stresses me. I get great pleasure out of trying to make my work out of installing it, which to me is anxiety provoking but very pleasurable. But the whole deal about openings and dinners and all that, I can't. I just can't stand that. I'm very bad at that. I actually understand that because as a writer, I write to stay behind the scenes. I have no interest in ever being in front of a camera, and the greatest surprise of my career has been the alarming frequency with which I have to be in front of a camera. Do you ever decide you know what I'm not going to play that game today. I'm not gonna do all the glad handing and the interviewing, and I'm just going to make my work. Well, I should say, I am never in front of a camera. I would rather go to Hell than be in front of a camera. So the camera on my device is covered. I haven't done TV or zoom live interviews in decades, you know, And in terms of public panels discussions, I haven't done that in twenty years. So I've sort of tried to figure out a way to make my meaning and make it reach people, and hopefully focus on what that work is rather than my own particular visage or backstory. One of your most well known pieces is Your Body is a Battleground, which I know you made in support of the Women's March, and especially in the past two years, we've seen that roe versus Wade is under attack. It always has been, but now that attack seems to be succeeding. How does it feel to know that this piece you made more than twenty years ago remains timely and could just as easily speak to the current times as it did back then. Well, you know, I was thinking recently, you know, I would like to live forever. I'd like to live forever with a minimum amount of pain, But I wouldn't mind if my work became archaic. M hm. You know, I I just think, of course, what's happening now around women's reproductive rights, what's happening globally right now. I just feel that no one should be shocked at anything now, because that just signifies a failure of imagination, and that failure of imagination has somehow allowed certain things to proceed as they are, especially in this country. You know. One of the things I've noticed about your work, you came up in an era where magazines and television and film where these dominant cultural forms, and now it's more the internet and social media. But I find that your work has translated extremely well in the new media environment. What do you think has given your work this timeless quality, both in terms of message and in terms of aesthetic. Well, thank you for that, first of all, but I think a number of things. Firstly, being an editorial to's miner really taught me a certain kind of economy of presentation. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the visuals like create are simple. It just means that their mode of address sort of cuts through the grease on a certain level. And I think that, tied with my own short attention span, has really allowed for me to develop a vocabulary that that hopefully others can take in and read in the same way that I have. Now I do durational works, I do you know, video and time based works which ask for a different kind of attention, but they still are rather direct and involve a language which is very secular, very in the world, one that I understand and speak. One of the other things that strikes me about your work is how many media you work as us You do photography, sculpture, print work, video and live performance. How do you decide which medium is going to be most effective for what you're trying to do with a given piece? You know, I think all work is site specific on a certain level, So you just figure out on a visual level. For instance, in terms of the scale of work, you know what the sight lines are, how available will it be? Is it outdoors? Will people walk by, will they drive by? How much time can one give to a work In a durational work, I make sure if it's indoors to have places to sit, comfortable places to sit, to give people time to try to, you know, read what I'm writing and showing. I basically think again that all my exhibitions are outdoor projects, are opportunities, and it is thrilling for me to really lives so many opportunities, especially right now coming up now, what's going on now with me is since I'm not twenty five anymore. Um, it's great to have these happening, even if it started kind of late for me. I am so appreciative of it. So let's talk about that. How you started and you we originally working in editorial design for magazines, right, Conde Nast, Mademoiselle, House and Garden. Yeah, when did you decide I want to do something more than this or in addition to this? At that point, it was not really supported the idea of doing work that looked anything like the work I did for a job. And what I saw was my job morph on the level of meaning into my work as an artist. So it was great to take that skill that I had developed as a designer and make it speak for me rather than have it be a client based relationship where I was, you know, selling a sweater or this or that. To put different meaning into those words, that was revelatory for me to think I could do that and that work would become part of a conversation. How are you as your own client? Are you hard on yourself creatively? No, I just think I try to be vigilant about how good and how short my reality testing is. You know, I think I'm a pretty good editor of my work. I mean, it's clear to me when stuff fails and when it works, and sometimes it works for me and not for everyone. Again, you can't be everyone's you know, perfect moment and if any perfect moment, So you know, it's just I see it as a process rather than an end product. But also then I just wanted to say, you know, the questions are for me, but for you and your visibility and the amazing amount of projects that you are involved with simultaneously. It's just so sort of mind blowing and impressive to me. I was wondering how you deal with so many things at once and how that motors your pleasures and engagements. That is the question. You know, it's challenging. I love what I do very very much, writing and reading our my first loves and they will be my last. When you spend so many years struggling to make it as a writer. When you start to make it, you decide, oh, I have to say yes to everything, because this could be the last opportunity. No matter how secure you think you are, there's always this nagging sense that I'll let me say yes to this other thing just in case. And so I find it to be incredibly overwhelming, both in a good way and a not so good way. All of the projects I'm working on thrill me in one way or another, and I am finally at a point where I can say no to things that just don't interest me anymore, like, because I get a lot of ridiculous requests for things that are not in my wheelhouse that I can tell they're just you know, like looking for like a token black person and don't really care about what I personally could bring to the project. So I'm glad to be in a place where I can say no to that. But I just miss a lot of deadlines, a lot of deadlines. I'm not proud of it, but there are only so many hours in my day. I have an assistant, and so with that support behind the scenes, it does free me up to make my podcast and write my books and work on some film and television projects and things like that. So I just it's a it's a constant, constant balancing act, and sometimes I dropped the ball, but I am trying to say no more. It's very hard for me to say no to people because then they get disappointed and then they come back and they like, I think I'm saying no as a negotiating tactic, when in fact I'm saying no because I simply can't do the thing they're asking. So I just try to keep it all together. And what about in the midst of all these multitudes, how does that feel on a level of stress for instance, Well, stress levels are pretty high. It's it doesn't feel great. And in fact, I go to therapy twice a week. And the key thing other than like my normal ship that we've been talking about is how I can declutter and de busy my life and do what I really want to do, which is right. Every time we talk about it and sort of she gives me some ideas for like how I could approach you know, like finding the backbone and be like, you know what, I'm not going to be able to do this thing after all, etcetera. I feel slightly less us and so I can tell that my stress level right now is simply because I've over committed. I know that i'mlike many artists. You won't work with assistance, that you prefer to just do it all yourself. Why you know, I've just found that, um, that sort of lean machine thing kind of works for me. But I just feel that I get more done. I think more economically in terms of you know, how I schedule things, and I I really don't take anything on that I feel I can't honor that commitment because otherwise, again, I I want to really try to minimize the stress going down every day. You know, Yeah, that totally makes sense. And you know, as a control freak, that's why it Like I do all my own writing. I could never sort of outsource it because then it wouldn't be me, it would be someone else. And so I totally get like that sort of single voice sing o vision thing. I know that you just finished an install it LACMA in Los Angeles, and before that, this installation was at the Institute of Chicago. So what is this installation about for people who may want to go check it out. Well, the exhibition is called Thinking of You Crossed Out. I mean me crossed out I mean you, So it just UM. The exhibition I did twenty years ago at Mocha and at the Whitney was called Thinking of You. I mean, what this is is just a sort of UM, rethinking, replaying. There's lots of new work in the show, most of it moving image work, and it's sort of UM and editing, a redoing of certain ideas that I've engaged in the past, but also working out some new visual solutions and UM. In Chicago it was it was very huge show, and I'm so appreciative for the institute pations that have supported me because for so many decades I was not visible in American museums. In LA it's a different show because the space is so different and architecture is my first engagement. UM. Design in the built environment was always something that was important to me. One of the reasons I loved being in l A was its history of architectural, residential structures and modernisms. And so part of the fun of it is to spatialize my work, to make it change from space and place to place, and it'll further progress in New York and I'm also doing an exhibition on the floor of the Noya National Gallery in Berlin, which is the Mace Building. This is an incredibly important time for me and my work, and I'm so appreciative. I'm never blag about any of it. Do you feel at the stage of your career that the art world is recognizing your work in the way it deserves to be recognized. Listen, I have no complaints. But what we are seeing in the last five years is a real historical reset and what is visible within the art world, both in terms of genders and of course in terms of race and all of this is a catch up game for centuries of marginality. So um, this is a change which not only is reflected in what is seen in galleries and museums, but also how museums and institutions are run. You know who constitutes their boards, their curators, their directorships. It's absolutely urgent that these changes are happening and continue to happen and not just be symbolic, but be in the real and part of a changing process. Do you think that these changes are going to be sustained or that this is a moment. I think it's both a moment and we'll be ongoing and will happen in fits and starts. But we will not be going back to the way it was. But I think that this represents a crisis in terms of cultural funding in this country, you know, and what philanthropy means. I just read this morning that, um, I see the new mayor of New York has cut the cultural funding. Um. You know, I don't know how that's going to play out, but of course this is always a challenge here in America. Years ago, corporations would you know, fund shows, but you know how many people wanted a show, and like in like the Philip Morris Galleries or the bp Pavilion. You know, it's um and these changes are important and they will be ongoing, and we see it not just here but in Europe and other places to yes, And you know that's the challenge. When there isn't public funding for art, you have to then think do I want this private funding to make my work possible? Especially and we've seen that in recent years with the Sacklers, and now their names are coming off museums left and right because people are realizing, oh, we don't actually want to be associated with these people. So I know that you because you teach, you encounter a lot of rising artists. Are there any artists working today that are really intriguing you and catching your eye? I am very bad at lists. I really resistant because I'm afraid that when I mentioned there were some people I won't mention. Let's just say this. I literally am so thankful that the so called art world is no longer a singular, that it is a plural made up of so many different kinds of people who can call themselves artists and tell stories and show and tell subjectivities that were never visit, never seen and heard before. So in many ways, like you were mentioning in your intro, sometimes well, first of all, the visual arts are so marginalized in this country that frequently the only thing people do know about it is certain secondary market auction prices or stuff like that, or n f T s and all that, and it's fifty nine billion dollars and all that. But that's really not what making art and creating commentary means to most artists, you know, it's how, somehow they can show and tell what it means, not on a literal level, but to live another day, to take another breath, to be in this world. And it comes out in so many different ways and now better than ever, because it's such a very group of people who are now making art, calling themselves artists, and having their work visible not only in so called alternative structures, but within gallery structure. And sometimes when they're very young, they will start selling work. But I always remind them, you know, never to take it too personally, because I truly believe that no work of art, no piece of music, no writing, is ever as amazing and major and extraordinary, or as flawed and damaged and minor as is written to be. You know, so much of our work is so explained through a hyperbolic lens, which is not always helpful. So I think I always encourage students to see the development of their work as a process. Sometimes you're gonna be flavor of the week, but one considers the brutal fickleness of a market culture, and that one continues to make work regardless of those sort of nice cities or punishments. You know, I think that's an important lesson for all creative people, because the market is indeed fickle um and creativity is a lifelong thing. Barbara Kruger, it has been a genuine pleasure to speak with you this afternoon Thank you so so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Thank you, thank you so much. If you are in Los Angeles or coming to Los Angeles anytime soon, you can see Barbara Cruger's show at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art or LACMA, through July sevent That show is thinking of you, I mean me, I mean you. You can keep up with me and the podcast on social media on Twitter at our Gay and Instagram at Roxanne Gay seven four. Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda at gmail dot com, and we would love to hear from you from Luminary. The Rocks and Gay Agenda is produced by Curtis Fox, our researcher as Yagya Moreno. Production support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bed feminist. Thank you so much for listening.

There's this warm, sharp, incredibly funny show on HBO Max called Starstruck. Oh the other day, I was in Australia. I was looking for something to watch and I saw this and I thought, well, let me give it a go. It's kind of like Nodding Hill, but with way more awkwardness and humanity and hilarity. Rose Mattifao is not only the star as Jesse, a New Zealander in London who has a one night stand with Tom movie star. She also wrote the show is a famous actor and you were a little rat nobody hash, but it's true. Each episode is around twenty two minutes long, so you can consume the whole season and really a little more than two hours. It's one of those shows where there are ups and downs, but there's no trauma. There's nothing horrific. It's just fun and warm and sweet, eat and loving. And so if you have a chance, check out Starstruck, which is not getting nearly the attention it deserves from luminary. This is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist, So on the Roxande Gay Agenda, I like to talk about whatever is on my mind, and then I talked with people who are really interesting to find out what's on their mind. On this week's agenda, Art and the collection thereof. As I've mentioned on this show before, I came to art collecting rather late in life, because for many years I admired art in museums, but I never ever thought it was something that I could own in my home because I would only really read about art when it came to these massive, multimillion dollar sales. And then I met my wife, Debbie, who has been an avid art collector for nearly thirty years, and she showed me that there are all kinds of price points between four dogs at a poker table and bosc yacht. I started trolling around art auctions and going to galleries and meeting artists. So I started slowly building a collection, and like many collections, it has now spiraled somewhat out of control. But I just love it because every day I get to look around my home and see art that intrigues and challenges and provokes me. At the same time, though there is a bit of a challenge, sometimes there's a whole world to navigate as an art collector. And if you're not wealthy or white, or heterosexual and sort of the kinds of people they expect to see collecting, you can run into all kinds of I don't know what the word is, but challenges is the bigist sort of container for it. Not everybody gets to buy the art that they want. Galleries like to make strategic choices about who they're going to sell art to, and oftentimes black collectors are not on that list. You also, there's a whole lingo you have to figure out how to negotiate the price and make a good case for yourself. In many ways, you have to audition to spend your own hard earned money, and it can be for someone like me who resists authority incredibly frustrating, and so I find myself mostly getting my art through auctions and charity events, and of course just going directly to artists and developing relationships with them if I admire their practice. Regardless though, what it really is about is not an investment for me. It is just being able to be part of an artistic community and engage with artists who do something so different from what I do but also incredibly similar. We're all just trying to make beautiful and interesting things to leave in the world. And that brings me to today's guest. I have three pieces by Barbara Kruger in my collection. One is called Surveillance, is Your Busy Work, another is Blind Idealism is Deadly, and the last, the most recent one, is I Shop Therefore I Am. These are all interesting, witty pieces, and every day I look at them and I smile. Barbara Krueger is one of the great artists of our time. Her work is bold, provocative, and visually arresting. She pulls apart the intersections between gender, feminism, consumerism, and power using principles of graphic design and propaganda. You might, in fact say her work is its own kind of propaganda, challenging the strictures of oppression and marginalization that far too many people in this world face today. She lives and works in Los Angeles, and she joins me via zoom. Barbara Krueger, thank you so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Happy to be here, wonderful as an artist. Does it feel strange for someone else to quote unquote own your work? I wouldn't say it felt strange, No, You know, when I first started beginning to think I could call myself an artist. The notion of selling my work would have been well, it was ridiculous because it didn't happen. For a long time. For many of us, the idea of showing had nothing to do with selling. So one continues one's practice and one's work regardless of whether it is border sold. I have little discomfort about finally being able to make money off of what I do, because for so many years I didn't. I never really thought much about being an artist artist. I have maybe a year and a half of school, no undergraduate or graduate degrees anywhere. The so called art world, which at that time was twelve white guys in Lower Manhattan, was incredibly you know, forbidding and narrow place. So you know now, I know when you entered the art world you initially felt marginalized and were you know, especially at that time, and not much frankly has changed, where women still are dealing with a lot of systemic issues. Do you still feel that way that you are sort of working as an outsider inside the art world. No, No, I would be deluded to feel that way. Uh, it's still in many ways, and I've said this before, really astounds me that people know my name and my work, because although I've worked hard and tried to be vigilant about the meanings I'm making, who is seen and who is not can be so arbitrary in the cruelest of ways, and the fact that I have emerged visibly the way I have is it's both incredibly gratifying and a goof wow. I never expected this kind of visibility and prominence, and I never take it for granted. Do you enjoy this kind of visibility and prominence. I am an incredibly self conscious person and all the publicness involved really stresses me. I get great pleasure out of trying to make my work out of installing it, which to me is anxiety provoking but very pleasurable. But the whole deal about openings and dinners and all that, I can't. I just can't stand that. I'm very bad at that. I actually understand that because as a writer, I write to stay behind the scenes. I have no interest in ever being in front of a camera, and the greatest surprise of my career has been the alarming frequency with which I have to be in front of a camera. Do you ever decide you know what I'm not going to play that game today. I'm not gonna do all the glad handing and the interviewing, and I'm just going to make my work. Well, I should say, I am never in front of a camera. I would rather go to Hell than be in front of a camera. So the camera on my device is covered. I haven't done TV or zoom live interviews in decades, you know, And in terms of public panels discussions, I haven't done that in twenty years. So I've sort of tried to figure out a way to make my meaning and make it reach people, and hopefully focus on what that work is rather than my own particular visage or backstory. One of your most well known pieces is Your Body is a Battleground, which I know you made in support of the Women's March, and especially in the past two years, we've seen that roe versus Wade is under attack. It always has been, but now that attack seems to be succeeding. How does it feel to know that this piece you made more than twenty years ago remains timely and could just as easily speak to the current times as it did back then. Well, you know, I was thinking recently, you know, I would like to live forever. I'd like to live forever with a minimum amount of pain, But I wouldn't mind if my work became archaic. M hm. You know, I I just think, of course, what's happening now around women's reproductive rights, what's happening globally right now. I just feel that no one should be shocked at anything now, because that just signifies a failure of imagination, and that failure of imagination has somehow allowed certain things to proceed as they are, especially in this country. You know. One of the things I've noticed about your work, you came up in an era where magazines and television and film where these dominant cultural forms, and now it's more the internet and social media. But I find that your work has translated extremely well in the new media environment. What do you think has given your work this timeless quality, both in terms of message and in terms of aesthetic. Well, thank you for that, first of all, but I think a number of things. Firstly, being an editorial to's miner really taught me a certain kind of economy of presentation. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the visuals like create are simple. It just means that their mode of address sort of cuts through the grease on a certain level. And I think that, tied with my own short attention span, has really allowed for me to develop a vocabulary that that hopefully others can take in and read in the same way that I have. Now I do durational works, I do you know, video and time based works which ask for a different kind of attention, but they still are rather direct and involve a language which is very secular, very in the world, one that I understand and speak. One of the other things that strikes me about your work is how many media you work as us You do photography, sculpture, print work, video and live performance. How do you decide which medium is going to be most effective for what you're trying to do with a given piece? You know, I think all work is site specific on a certain level, So you just figure out on a visual level. For instance, in terms of the scale of work, you know what the sight lines are, how available will it be? Is it outdoors? Will people walk by, will they drive by? How much time can one give to a work In a durational work, I make sure if it's indoors to have places to sit, comfortable places to sit, to give people time to try to, you know, read what I'm writing and showing. I basically think again that all my exhibitions are outdoor projects, are opportunities, and it is thrilling for me to really lives so many opportunities, especially right now coming up now, what's going on now with me is since I'm not twenty five anymore. Um, it's great to have these happening, even if it started kind of late for me. I am so appreciative of it. So let's talk about that. How you started and you we originally working in editorial design for magazines, right, Conde Nast, Mademoiselle, House and Garden. Yeah, when did you decide I want to do something more than this or in addition to this? At that point, it was not really supported the idea of doing work that looked anything like the work I did for a job. And what I saw was my job morph on the level of meaning into my work as an artist. So it was great to take that skill that I had developed as a designer and make it speak for me rather than have it be a client based relationship where I was, you know, selling a sweater or this or that. To put different meaning into those words, that was revelatory for me to think I could do that and that work would become part of a conversation. How are you as your own client? Are you hard on yourself creatively? No, I just think I try to be vigilant about how good and how short my reality testing is. You know, I think I'm a pretty good editor of my work. I mean, it's clear to me when stuff fails and when it works, and sometimes it works for me and not for everyone. Again, you can't be everyone's you know, perfect moment and if any perfect moment, So you know, it's just I see it as a process rather than an end product. But also then I just wanted to say, you know, the questions are for me, but for you and your visibility and the amazing amount of projects that you are involved with simultaneously. It's just so sort of mind blowing and impressive to me. I was wondering how you deal with so many things at once and how that motors your pleasures and engagements. That is the question. You know, it's challenging. I love what I do very very much, writing and reading our my first loves and they will be my last. When you spend so many years struggling to make it as a writer. When you start to make it, you decide, oh, I have to say yes to everything, because this could be the last opportunity. No matter how secure you think you are, there's always this nagging sense that I'll let me say yes to this other thing just in case. And so I find it to be incredibly overwhelming, both in a good way and a not so good way. All of the projects I'm working on thrill me in one way or another, and I am finally at a point where I can say no to things that just don't interest me anymore, like, because I get a lot of ridiculous requests for things that are not in my wheelhouse that I can tell they're just you know, like looking for like a token black person and don't really care about what I personally could bring to the project. So I'm glad to be in a place where I can say no to that. But I just miss a lot of deadlines, a lot of deadlines. I'm not proud of it, but there are only so many hours in my day. I have an assistant, and so with that support behind the scenes, it does free me up to make my podcast and write my books and work on some film and television projects and things like that. So I just it's a it's a constant, constant balancing act, and sometimes I dropped the ball, but I am trying to say no more. It's very hard for me to say no to people because then they get disappointed and then they come back and they like, I think I'm saying no as a negotiating tactic, when in fact I'm saying no because I simply can't do the thing they're asking. So I just try to keep it all together. And what about in the midst of all these multitudes, how does that feel on a level of stress for instance, Well, stress levels are pretty high. It's it doesn't feel great. And in fact, I go to therapy twice a week. And the key thing other than like my normal ship that we've been talking about is how I can declutter and de busy my life and do what I really want to do, which is right. Every time we talk about it and sort of she gives me some ideas for like how I could approach you know, like finding the backbone and be like, you know what, I'm not going to be able to do this thing after all, etcetera. I feel slightly less us and so I can tell that my stress level right now is simply because I've over committed. I know that i'mlike many artists. You won't work with assistance, that you prefer to just do it all yourself. Why you know, I've just found that, um, that sort of lean machine thing kind of works for me. But I just feel that I get more done. I think more economically in terms of you know, how I schedule things, and I I really don't take anything on that I feel I can't honor that commitment because otherwise, again, I I want to really try to minimize the stress going down every day. You know, Yeah, that totally makes sense. And you know, as a control freak, that's why it Like I do all my own writing. I could never sort of outsource it because then it wouldn't be me, it would be someone else. And so I totally get like that sort of single voice sing o vision thing. I know that you just finished an install it LACMA in Los Angeles, and before that, this installation was at the Institute of Chicago. So what is this installation about for people who may want to go check it out. Well, the exhibition is called Thinking of You Crossed Out. I mean me crossed out I mean you, So it just UM. The exhibition I did twenty years ago at Mocha and at the Whitney was called Thinking of You. I mean, what this is is just a sort of UM, rethinking, replaying. There's lots of new work in the show, most of it moving image work, and it's sort of UM and editing, a redoing of certain ideas that I've engaged in the past, but also working out some new visual solutions and UM. In Chicago it was it was very huge show, and I'm so appreciative for the institute pations that have supported me because for so many decades I was not visible in American museums. In LA it's a different show because the space is so different and architecture is my first engagement. UM. Design in the built environment was always something that was important to me. One of the reasons I loved being in l A was its history of architectural, residential structures and modernisms. And so part of the fun of it is to spatialize my work, to make it change from space and place to place, and it'll further progress in New York and I'm also doing an exhibition on the floor of the Noya National Gallery in Berlin, which is the Mace Building. This is an incredibly important time for me and my work, and I'm so appreciative. I'm never blag about any of it. Do you feel at the stage of your career that the art world is recognizing your work in the way it deserves to be recognized. Listen, I have no complaints. But what we are seeing in the last five years is a real historical reset and what is visible within the art world, both in terms of genders and of course in terms of race and all of this is a catch up game for centuries of marginality. So um, this is a change which not only is reflected in what is seen in galleries and museums, but also how museums and institutions are run. You know who constitutes their boards, their curators, their directorships. It's absolutely urgent that these changes are happening and continue to happen and not just be symbolic, but be in the real and part of a changing process. Do you think that these changes are going to be sustained or that this is a moment. I think it's both a moment and we'll be ongoing and will happen in fits and starts. But we will not be going back to the way it was. But I think that this represents a crisis in terms of cultural funding in this country, you know, and what philanthropy means. I just read this morning that, um, I see the new mayor of New York has cut the cultural funding. Um. You know, I don't know how that's going to play out, but of course this is always a challenge here in America. Years ago, corporations would you know, fund shows, but you know how many people wanted a show, and like in like the Philip Morris Galleries or the bp Pavilion. You know, it's um and these changes are important and they will be ongoing, and we see it not just here but in Europe and other places to yes, And you know that's the challenge. When there isn't public funding for art, you have to then think do I want this private funding to make my work possible? Especially and we've seen that in recent years with the Sacklers, and now their names are coming off museums left and right because people are realizing, oh, we don't actually want to be associated with these people. So I know that you because you teach, you encounter a lot of rising artists. Are there any artists working today that are really intriguing you and catching your eye? I am very bad at lists. I really resistant because I'm afraid that when I mentioned there were some people I won't mention. Let's just say this. I literally am so thankful that the so called art world is no longer a singular, that it is a plural made up of so many different kinds of people who can call themselves artists and tell stories and show and tell subjectivities that were never visit, never seen and heard before. So in many ways, like you were mentioning in your intro, sometimes well, first of all, the visual arts are so marginalized in this country that frequently the only thing people do know about it is certain secondary market auction prices or stuff like that, or n f T s and all that, and it's fifty nine billion dollars and all that. But that's really not what making art and creating commentary means to most artists, you know, it's how, somehow they can show and tell what it means, not on a literal level, but to live another day, to take another breath, to be in this world. And it comes out in so many different ways and now better than ever, because it's such a very group of people who are now making art, calling themselves artists, and having their work visible not only in so called alternative structures, but within gallery structure. And sometimes when they're very young, they will start selling work. But I always remind them, you know, never to take it too personally, because I truly believe that no work of art, no piece of music, no writing, is ever as amazing and major and extraordinary, or as flawed and damaged and minor as is written to be. You know, so much of our work is so explained through a hyperbolic lens, which is not always helpful. So I think I always encourage students to see the development of their work as a process. Sometimes you're gonna be flavor of the week, but one considers the brutal fickleness of a market culture, and that one continues to make work regardless of those sort of nice cities or punishments. You know, I think that's an important lesson for all creative people, because the market is indeed fickle um and creativity is a lifelong thing. Barbara Kruger, it has been a genuine pleasure to speak with you this afternoon Thank you so so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Thank you, thank you so much. If you are in Los Angeles or coming to Los Angeles anytime soon, you can see Barbara Cruger's show at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art or LACMA, through July sevent That show is thinking of you, I mean me, I mean you. You can keep up with me and the podcast on social media on Twitter at our Gay and Instagram at Roxanne Gay seven four. Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda at gmail dot com, and we would love to hear from you from Luminary. The Rocks and Gay Agenda is produced by Curtis Fox, our researcher as Yagya Moreno. Production support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bed feminist. Thank you so much for listening.