Hi, No, let's take that from the stop. Oh lord had sounds like oh that does not come out of me normally from luminary. This is here to slay the black feminists, voting rights podcasts of your Dreams and Trussey McMillan cott um y'all, and I am your Negro suffragette Rocks fans game. I'm here to slay Trusse and I talked not only about voting right, So we also get into books, movies, TV, theater, food whom decore, which, by the way, I'm enjoying all the pictures you're posting on Instagram about little tableaus and I love a tableau girl. How could you not? We also do talk about politics. Yep, try as we might, we cannot get away from politics, Rockland. You know what that is, tuintessential black woman. We can never get away from politics. We win an election and get ready for a little R and R. But then what the Democrats forget that they love trust black women? Uh? And then Republicans look for new ways to keep black people from the polls and out of the body politics, and then we're right back where we started. We gotta talk about you do. I'm here to slay. We talk about it with women, mostly black women, usually women in media, arts, politics, journalism, women like Truscy and I who have thoughts and opinions and who are getting shipped done. Hey girl, hey, hey, opinions capital Oh we're not lowercase. Oh like some of those people. That isn't that all right? So we are like amped up. I don't know about you, Roxanne. You're in California. Yes, I do know about you. I don't need to ask about how y'all's weather and environment is going. Yes, it's gorgeous here in North Carolina is in the seventy It is what my grandmother would have called pneumonia weather. But I don't care because I believe in science now grandma, And so I'm worried about all kinds of things. But I'm also thrilled we can throw open the windows. I'm ready to live, even if it's just quarantine life. But this thing keeps pulling us back in, pulling us back in. I feel like we have to pay a little bit of attention to what is happening on the national stage. We do, and I gotta tell you, trustee, the weather is getting much better. And I'm excited about it. I'm thrilled, but I'm also terrified because I feel myself getting spring fever. Like I'm ready to live and uh, COVID is not over yet. We are not vaccinated yet, and exactly, you know, we're all going to have to just maintain a little more discipline to get through this. I don't know if I'm gonna make it. Girl, I don't either. Listen, Listen, I'm about ready to through. You know. I don't wear bathing too, but I'm about to put a bikini on and go and go do something somewhere like you know what, listen, All out want is a little air and my hair a little a little sprinkling of the ocean on my face. Is this too much to ask it? It is not go to that North Carolina shore, feel the outer banks on you. It misses me so much. But yeah, the politicians won't let us live. They won't let us be great. You're right, we are doing better with vaccinations, but are not where we need to be for us to just be all outside willy nilly, and Biden is still in his first one days and has been busy, but maybe not busy in the ways we wish. You know, we have to. I suppose, give any new politician, new president, some runway to get some things done. And so it's hard to really assess what a politician is doing. And until the first hundred days have passed and we know that Biden inherited a real ship show to be fair, to be fair, to be very fair. Again, Democrats don't know how to whole power. You know, we have the House, we have the Senate, and yet it doesn't seem like it. It seems like Mitch McConnell is still in charge and Joe Biden is already falling back on campaign promises. You know, last week we talked about he wants this ten thousand dollars ceiling on the student loans. And I read a news article about how the first migrant detention camp for children opened under the Biden administration, and this was something he said that he was going to eradicate. And I suppose a lot of us are just cynical at this point, because I read the story and I am horrified, But at the same time, I'm not particularly surprised. One of the things that Democrats will tell you is, yes, we have a public mandate, but the mandate is weak, right, we took the House in the Senate, but the Democrats did lose seats in the House. They didn't do so great and state racists like across the board certainly not at the level we probably would have expected considering how polarized the electorate was at the time. So Democrats defend themselves here by saying, well, we've got a mandate, but we don't have a filibuster proof mandate um and because of that, we've got to, you know, negotiate. We want to bring people to the table. But what that looks like bringing people to the table is it does look like continuing things like migrant children's detention camps, which is basically what they are. It looks like basically giving away parts of the store before the Republicans even demanded of us. So I don't, Yeah, I don't know if it's that I'm cynical. I think I'm pragmatic when I say I'm not sure we're going to get the big, bold, sweeping political gestures from this administration that we were hoping to get. Correct And so kind of a bitter pill to swallow, because you know, we keep hearing these Democrats talk about how we need Republicans and like, who is we? And Republicans don't give a fuck whether or not there are any Democrats around. They are merciless in terms of enacting their agendas. And I'm not saying that we should lower ourselves to their level. But at the same time, we should absolutely lower ourselves to their level and get some things done and lead like we want to be leaders. And part of that is to combat voter suppression, because the she naigans have already started in Georgia. Yeah, listen, never they never stopped, but then they ramped up. They lost that runoff election. Honey, voting on Sundays. That no early voting on Sundays. I'm like that we don't want any black people to vote. George, of course, is the center of the South where black voter turnout relies significantly on Black church turn out. And so what will often happen in the South for those of you who are not familiar. You go to church on Sunday, if you're black, go to your good a m Zion, you have your service. Your preacher stands up and says they're gonna be busses out front after service for the elderly and shut in. But listen, everybody gets on that bus, uh, and you go down to the polls. That's how they deliver and turn out the black vote in a lot of these black Southern enclaves. So when you say no voting on Sunday, you're basically saying yes, no black church vote, and that's a significant part of the vote. Um. The Georgia Republicans are not just shameless, they are flagrant. Right, none of this is happening in the dark bo. No, they're introducing this legislation in the Georgia State House. They're proud of this, and they're not the only ones. So uh, there are about a hundred bills across UM state legislatures out of control about Republicans right now that have various types and degrees of proposed voting restrictions. Republicans think they cannot win without suppressing the vote. And here's the thing. Political scientists will tell you they are right. They know that voter suppression is the only way to go because they in fact have very unpopular policies that well, now, that's the thing, you know, They policies serve a really small portion of the electorate, and it's weird that they have millions of people, tens of millions of people really that are like, yeah, I'm actually okay with the suppression that you want to put on me. I'm fine with that as long as you guys keep black people in mind and women in their place. It's really interesting to see just how unpopular their ideas are, how half asked, and then they're like, you know what, we know we can't win hearts and minds, and so we're just going to destroy those hearts and minds. When you see somebody like Ted CRUs or something and you're like trying to figure that guy out, Um, first of all, there's nothing to figure out. He is exactly what he looks like. I mean, but he is who he says he is. Like, believe him. He is that motherfucker that goes to Cancun when his state is in crisis. And the worst part, to me, I'm sorry, is then comes back and blames his children. If you want to talk about somebody's moral core, yeah, you know what trying to see. Let's talk about this just a little bit, yes, a little bit. Did you see what those people on his group texting, I mean, the group text is sacred, So that means his people hate him, and they don't just hate him, they hate him and his wife. His wife is trashed because they normally you would think that they would band around her exactly because she's and they're all like three dollars a night at the risk Carlton. It says so right here. Yes, they flamed him and her, which I thought said a lot about their place and their little local elite en claig. She clearly does the day to day work of the cruise brand around that town, and they cannot stand her. People always think that these political wives are like innocent victims, and I'm like, frankly, they're generally more lethal than their husbands. They are the ones who are about it about it. Let me tell you something a friend told me years ago that I never forgot. She said, Trusty, I was talking about a mismatch coupling in our friend group, and I was like, yeah, because like, the guy was a total pothead and among other things, I'm being kind here, I think there was some coking it. It was a lot happening there, but we call it party it. And he had hooked up with this girl who we thought of as being like really you know, pristine, sort of middle class princess and my friends to me and said, trusty, um, crackheads don't marry non crackheads. You might not know what she's doing, but the fact that they're in that house alone together, he is not the only person and getting high. I think of that with political couples all the time. Why you think you would have the devil, the political devil sitting there and he's married to an angel. That's just not how that works. You know what proverb Trussey crackheads do not marry. No. So she blew my mind. Jade, if you're listening, I give you all the credits were big on credits and my friendships. I was so angry and like, I don't know, disappointed in people when they were making that case about Milannia Trump when Donald Trump was first selected. They painted her as this victim, I know, this poor little victim, and Trump Tower just biting her tight. That is not how that works. Never ever, And later on, like years later, I think in the past year, I read an article that said that he and Milannia actually get along fairly well, that they are of the same mind, and that he goes to her for counsel, which means that she fuels a lot of his really fascist tendencies. There's no need to have any empathy for her. She's a getting paid and be exactly where the funk she wants to be. So we have all these political couples who were doing these really terrible things together, and we and they deserve the share the load of that. Let's replicate them both. And unfortunately we're seeing similar kinds of dastardly behavior at the state legislature level. They are up to no good. Today, we actually have a really great guest to help us make sense of a lot of the factors that are at play when it comes to one of the most pernicious evils in politics, which is voter suppression, and that is Brittney Gibson. She is a journalist covering voting rights for the American Prospect in the Politzer Center. Hi Brittany, Hi, how are you. I'm good, Thank you, Thanks for having me. Oh, it's great to have you. We're excited to get into this. So give us a sense of the scope of what Republicans are up to, because I suspect that they are up to absolutely no good. Yes, you would be right on that, So you know, even though the cycle is over, we should think of this as in terms of one legislative cycle beginning. So in state houses around the country, there have been more than two hundred bills that are either carried over or being In January, it was more than a hundred. Now we're up to I think it's about to fifty now of bills that would restrict people's voting rights around the country, all in different ways. You can. I was just imagine to say, what's the scope of some of these bills that you were seeing. Well, I think Georgia is the perfect example of good you know, anecdote for what's happening everywhere. It's most of the bills I've seen are pretty big attacks on the absentee system. So think of things like requiring witness signatures on absentee mail and ballots. Think about things like requiring early voting early in person ahead of election day, centers to have reduced hours or no voting on Sunday as you just mentioned things like that. So most of what I'm seeing now is attacking the alternatives, which really helped boost the turnout. Right, that was the big horse race there at the end, right the I remember what's our our little guy Willie. You know, what's the guy from MSNBC, the political analysts that you love, Roxy, Steve CORNACKI, Steve Kai that's it. I remember Steve using. You know, he has his board and he keeps going, this doesn't include the absolute mail, and that was the big mushy middle right. Everything was in there. So we're seeing lots of bills that are attacking what ended up being a real vote getting place for Democrats. Okay, it's interesting because it doesn't have necessarily be that way. It doesn't have to be the place where Democrats are getting there. That was a factor of you know, Trump saying my voters, hello, please do not go vote in this way, specifically, go vote in personal election day. So it's one of those things where expansion could actually help Republican voters. If you're a Republican voter over sixty five, and it's easier for you to vote by mail or vote early when there's less lines, or you know, whatever things can happen on election day, this expansions can help you as well. Yeah, it's funny you should say that because earlier Truscy and I were talking about how Republicans are going for voter suppression because they have such unpopular policies, and it's so interesting that even when they have this opportunity to capitalize on their base and encourage their base to get out to vote, they're like, no, no, thank you, We actually just are not interested in in using democracy as a tool. Yeah. Yeah, that's another interesting thing about all of the bills that are coming out of Georgia right now, because their absentee system was actually designed by Republicans and our Sunny Perdue just fifteen years ago. One thing that's being attacked right now is um the no absentee reasoning rule, if that makes sense. So in some states you have to have a pre approved state righting for why you'd like to vote absentee, and Governor Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Raethinsburger have just come out or in the last few months, i should say, saying that that system doesn't make any sense. But they're actually by saying that, attacking fellow Republican, former Trump Cabinet member and the system that he put into place, because when they were designing it at the time, they had a very solid Jerrymanderick plan, right. So the other thing that's sort of happened. Here has been very successful counter attacks at the court level of Jerrymander districts across the nation, right, so they felt more secure doing that sort of like mail and ballot to appeal to things like elderly voters who do to the lean more conservative. When the jerrymanderd maps were you know, defensible, now that those seem to be not unilaterally defensible um in the court level. Now now we have a question about whether or not the system works right. What kinds of things are people doing on the ground, both at the activist level but also in things like are we filing court cases yet? Like who's got their eye on the ball with all of these over two hundred bills. Absolutely, activists and organizers, the usual groups you think of, Brennan Center, a c l U Legal Defense Fund, they're definitely on this in terms of national and legal efforts. But one thing that's been really interesting, and sorry to keep going back to Georgia because that state is so well organized and so politically charged and motivated. What they did when uh these bills were first introduced was put basically a call out to all of their supporters. So groups like you know your Local and double a c P and a c l U chapters, in addition to groups like New Georgia Projects, the Local Common Cause is all of those groups. They basically said, these bills are not sent in stone yet, they're just introductions. So we need you to continue to stay motivated, continue to stay engaged. Call your state representatives, tell them how this would affect your voting, and the fact that there's not a lot of reason behind the restrictive bills, and if people are hearing from their constituents, you know, the letters, the emails, the calls, that could sway some people to vote against these bills. At least that's the I was going to say that encouraging. I wish there was more that we could do other than because every time there are these calls to call your representative, I wonder is that really effective? And I know that in many instances it is, but it makes you feel disempowered to know that this is really the only choice that you have. I think it's also important that we start to think about these issues on the federal level, and I know that in Congress there is the John Lewis Voting Rights Bill. Could you tell us a little bit about what that is and how that might help voting rights across the country. The way the US system works right now is there basically fifty mini federal elections, all the different systems, all the different procedures. You can live in California vote one way and moved to Alabama and all of a sudden, you can't vote that way anymore. And the last time we had a federal response was after Bush Vigore, after two thousand and the Help America Vote Acts. So it's been a while since the federal government, or at least Congress, looked at this um. So one of the things that the John Lewis Voting Rights Act would do that wouldn't have the largest impact on people right away is it would bring back in something called preclearance. Preclearance was a part of the Voting Rights Act, which was struck down by a Supreme Court decision, and it basically said, if you are a state or certain counties as well, that have a history of suppressing people's votes, making it difficult for people to vote either based on or race, or language requirements or you know, physical disabilities, whatever it might be, before you change any laws or procedures to your elections we need to review it and just double check that it it doesn't have bias against people, that it's not going to affect certain minorities, and that's not there anymore. The John Lewis Voting Rights Act would bring that in. And so a lot of the voting rights experts and lawyers that I've spoken to said, you know, if preclearance was still around, we wouldn't even see a lot of these bills. But another thing that I think it's lost or not talked about. As much as there are some changes to election procedures that don't go through larger bills or legislation. For example, on election day changing polling places, that's not a law that has to be passed or anything like that's really at a granular county level. But back when preclearance was there, that would have had to been reported. And that just makes it so much easier for grassroots activists as well as the national you know, big guns that can go straight to the courts to you know, help people interesting everyday level right right preclearances. I think of that as the last grand stand, the loss of preclearance, which turned on a Supreme Court decision that said we had worked through our voting rights suppression instinct, right, like that this was a historic relic, it didn't exist anymore, right, and it had created unnecessary administrative burden, and it was fine, right. Um. And then almost immediately thereafter I do love that the you know, history is over. And then almost immediately thereafter, every civil human rights in this country was immediately relegislated through a voting rights act. So the loss of the voting rights I cannot be overstated, not just by the way for black voters. I think sometimes we missed that. Like I really appreciate you pointing out that mattered for Americans with disabilities at implications, it mattered for people with who do do not speak English as their primary which it mattered to so many voters. Yeah, And what you just said about history being over is the rationale behind it. The way that case got brought up to the Supreme Court. Sorry if this is two in the leads, but it came from Shelby County, Alabama. Alabama already passed a voter ID law, they just hadn't implemented it. But after that Supreme Court case, it was twenty four hours later they implemented their voter ID law. That they didn't. They did not, and Shade and you'll probably hear that states have created these alternatives. Get a free voter ID car. We have a van that goes around. They had to do those measures because right after they passed that voter ID law, they just so happened to close down d m V stations in counties that had majority black populations. Yeah, I mean we saw after the last election. I mean I remember seeing reporting there were some d m vs that were open for like one day a week. So here's the thing that I do want to put out there, because this is one of those wonky things that I'm not sure lands always with us emotionally when we hear it. And it's important to point out when everybody's talking about the filipbuster, the filibuster, the filibuster, Uh, filibuster matters a lot to voting suppression and our ability to respond to it. Can you tell us a little bit about how that would relate to like the John Lewis Voting Rights Bill, what the possibility is of it with the filibuster. Absolutely, I'm generally an optimist in terms of things getting done, especially in terms of voting rights. You can't talk to grassroots activists and not walk away feeling, you know, positive about things. But because of the filipbuster, I don't see how you can get Republicans to you know, vote pass that, to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, despite the fact that I'm sure the House could pass it with their majority. Joe Biden at least seems to be motivated. I probably had more hope ahead of January six. But if you know, say editors Cruise and Hollie are willing to not want to certify electoral college results, I could see them tag teaming a filibuster on this. It doesn't currently doesn't seem likely. That was very act of you, though, just a little drop, because when you look at the landscape and I imagine as a journalist, who's you know and mentioned in all of this, it can seem pretty grim and overwhelming. Yes, I think the big picture definitely, But I've been really lucky enough to do a lot of on the ground reporting and the people that are doing the most ground level work, um whether they're connected to a larger organization New Georgia Project or a c l U, or if they're just individual people. I met a fantastic organizer from Sumter, South Carolinas, Dr Brenda C. Williams, And she just goes out of her way. She's retired physicians. She just goes out of her way to register people to vote, drive them to the polls she used to go into. I know so many women who have done that over the years, exactly. And so when you talk to those people that are really just combating the system on an individual, person by person level, it's impossible not to feel, you know, optimistic about things being able to move forward. Thank you for that gift, Brittany, and thank you for joining us here on here to slay. It's a pleasure to have you. Thank you for all of your great work. And you're reporting on this. I hope that we won't have to have you reporting on it indefinitely. How about that it would be great if you could get a new beat simply because this one. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Yeah. She was surprisingly optimistic, which frankly I appreciated because I tend to get It's not that I get I give up, but when I look at the way politics are and what a dirty business and the things that politicians on all sides of the aisle, frankly are willing to do and what they're willing to compromise to push their agendas. It can be really disheartening and dispiriting. Yeah. I have been accused before of being a pessimist, and I always say no, I practiced in the black feminist tradition of pragmatism, but I admit that that can sound quite that simistic, and so I appreciated Brittany managing to be both pragmatic and upbeat. And you know what, I attribute that to Roxanne? Yes, that helps. Did you see her glowing up? I mean, my god, I was like looking a little shot in her eyes. I know, my my eyes haven't been met white since nineteen eighty four. But I also attribute that to something she said about talking to people. You know, we've been isolated for a really long time, and I cannot ever be confused with a people person. But I am a writer and I'm an ethnographer, and I love to listen to people. And Brittany reminding me of why that is. It is really hard to be a fatalist m annihilist when you actually talk to people. It really is. That's why I think the work um, when like activists talk about how important it is to like get off of freaking social media or to turn off the television, especially like the news shows, you know, and they're like, you need to go outside and talk to some people, right, that's like activism and collective politics, one on one, go talk to some people. And I think that's one of the most important things that young black activists have especially reminded us of the last like five years with Black Lives Banner and Occupy, I think even before that, which is like how much better you actually feel when you go listen to actual people because you see them doing what we always you know, call the work, right, and they're not just talking about it, and when you recognize that there are people on the ground, and I I do to trace it back to Occupy, which was for our for at least our generation, you know, that was like this really mass movement. At the time, I was teaching at Eastern Illinois University and there was a little Occupy encampment on campus, these little kids in their tents and they were sincere about it. They were like, we may be in Charleston, Illinois, but we're about it. And I really admire that and so many young activists are doing this work. In fact, we get to have a conversation with one of these black activists. She's a woman, she's exciting. Her name is Amber J. Phillips, and she as a writer, a storyteller, a reproductive rights activist and organizer who lives in California, and she seems to have boundless energy. I know, I cannot even fathom what it is like to be that awake anymore. Um, listen, I love Amber. Yeah, I've just got to tell you. I tune into Amber on Instagram like it's television. We're going to drop her Instagram in the show notes. It is my gift to you. Go watch Amber Phillips on Instagram. She entertains me to no end and teaches me. I love love love having cohort members across the age spectrum. You know, a person doesn't have to be a certain age to teach you something, and Amber teaches me all the time. We got into a lot of stuff in this interview, but we started by talking about the way black people in particular have been engaged politically. Typically, when we engage black folks and communities of color or low income communities, any communities that are outside of the belt Way. It's this assumption that they're going to vote Democrat or they're going to vote for on the right side of history. But as a black girl who was embedded in black communities, I know that we deserve actual political education, like not just spill out your voter registration card, but to show up every two years exactly. And I'm like, who is I can't leave that work up to like Charlemagne the God or I'm joking. You can tell me what I can and can't say you have actually touched on a pet peeve of mine. I have many issues with Charlemagne, not God. And we keep outsourcing political education to entertainers, and I understand that that might and I've said this also about feminism. The superstar is the door, and that's fine. We need people to walk through that door. I embrace it. But what we have to give them more than just the door. You have to give them a place to walk into where we actually educate people on policy and not tell them what to think, just tell them what the options are. And that we don't do this, that we're so not we but that they are so condescending to black voters. Latino voters, uh to a lesser extent Asian voters, that they just say you should vote for us because we're not them. I just keep thinking, you're gonna actually need a better argument than that if you really want to sustain a black vote, if you really want to capitalize on what happened in georgan and not even just a black vote, but black leadership. We only talk about these communities in terms of what they can contribute to these establishments, as if it's not our grandparents and our aunties who are embedded in black communities. Who are my grandmother ran Um the food bank at my church, right Like, there's this assumption that all black people agree on how policing should work. There's this assumption that all of us are clear about what reproductive justice is. There's the assumption that we're clear about what kind of supports and policies black queer folks, and when we're reduced down to a vote during presidentials or mid term elections, all of us miss out on the visionary possibilities or the political leadership of black folks at the local level and there at the family level, as well as how that can impactum national politics. So I love that about we leave it up to celebrity, or we build political superstars only to reduce them down to a couple of talking points or a message box. Okay, so now that you said that, you know what I gotta ask you about. We've got a new crop of political superstars. Some people want to start with AOC, but I think what we really are talking about now is Corey Bush or we're really talking about the new freshman class who is often thought of as knowing exactly these narratives that you talk about. And I sometimes get in trouble. It's fine, I'm living. I like get in trouble for not being as enthusiastic as people expect and really obligate black women to be in public. They want to consume our emotions. I have to perform being enthusiastic. I have to perform being faithful, right, hopeful, because that's how other people feel it. They consume it from us. But I think that there has to be a way to go. Okay, you can see this thing happening, but still have your eye on the ball of the larger political picture. As somebody who has organized, who has been on both like local and nonprofit spaces, especially during this you know trumpion years, but also the Black Lives Matter years of trying to figure out how they were going to relate to electoral politics. What's your read on our emerging black political superstar class. I think it's exciting to see black folks running for office and holding leadership. I think sometimes when we talk about politics, we separate or we only think about electoral politics. We don't also look at how nonprofit organizing falls into that. Like when I moved to d C, everyone in my family thought I worked at the White House. I did not. I've only been there once so as an example, but I think, what um when I think specifically about like Ayana Presley and she was doing like sex education around uh for black women and girls, And I was like, Oh, that's really cool, right. And my hope is that as these folks are entering into these upper echelon power structures, that they're able to carry those threads. And really I want us to listen to what they're saying, if that makes sense, like I really want us to. Again, it goes back to this political education thing. I don't want to see Stacy Abrahams and not ask real questions about her pol stances. I don't want to see these folks and then not say, Okay, what are you doing around highe um repelling the High Amendment? And I think sometimes UM representation can kind of do a doozy on you. We're seeing as what come out here is right, it's like excited she's a black woman, but it's like, okay, but what about that policing record? Girl? Like how are we redistributing wealth in the form of these stimulus packages? How are we how are we doing all that work? That's what I really want people to ask them. Now, you raise a good point at one of the most frustrating things is actually, I'm very interested in the squad and then the people who entered this cycle, uh, and I wish more people would talk to them about policy. Lauren Underwood moved forward with her maternal her Black Maternal Health Initiative, and no one, not no one, but very few people are actually talking about it. People talk about, oh, diversity, there's diversity in Congress and so on, but like, what are they actually doing? What kinds of policy initiatives are they doing? And AOC I actually find her interesting. I like one of the things that's interesting about her is that she does on a granular level try to explain what's going on. She does try to teach people and sort of open up the mysteries of Congress. And I wish that more people of color had the platform to do that or the space, like I think what AOC is doing with social media. So I also did a lot of digital organizing when I was in d C, and a big push that I will always make was to be honest about where we are and to really show these processes. So when AFC got elect I was super excited about how she was using Instagram Live. She showed us up behind the scenes of her first swearing in. And sometimes the black women we feel so pressured on how we show up that we contend to only show up when everything is just right and what I want exactly like, So what, I think that a lot of them do have the platform if we're thinking about the use of digital media outside of things like the Washington Post and Politico and give a comment that they actually do have the power to speak directly to audiences. Um. And I think that's what AOC has done so well is she's clear about her role in politics, but she's also clear about how she's showing up in culture. And that's the piece that I think a lot of black electrics really could dive more into. And if I'm thinking about my entry point into politics, the first thing when you decide that you might want to run for office one day is you start cleaning everything up, right, You start to clean That's what exactly. You just start to do less of who you are and really just only talking about the work. And I was, and it made me a very uptight college student. I must say, I wish I would have had more fun. That's how I'm kind of pissed about this quarantine because I turned fair and I was like, I wanted to be out here, you know. So yeah, No, it's undermine. It's undermineing some good whole summers. Yes, let's be. Let's be is just gone. I just know come September, if if Budden really follows through on this three million vaccine thing, if it actually happens, and I say it's going to happen by the end of July, we'll see. I don't know. But if it happens, I think the fall we are going to be filthy. Filthy people go out, skies out, people are going to let me tell you as somebody who had listen and I had my good fair share of whole days. I really did I I did it when you were supposed to do it, and I'm going to do it again. If we can ever leave the house without feeling like that pressure of the hawk on your back, let me just tell you something. Uh, my friends, and not we're going to Carnival. I've got to go into all the then when minimal clothing. Yes, that is correct. I'm asking my people down to Mississippi if they know what you've joint. I'm asking people, Yes, I want a joint dark, Yes, little dirty glasses dark. I don't want I don't want to that Hell's Yeah. I want an incredible hulk in a dirty glass and to be pressed up against a wall that still got sick paper on it. Yes, I want to get I hear you. That's correct, and I literally cannot wait. So as nobody who even had her whole days, I am so sorry for everybody who's really grand whole days are being interrupted by this whole COVID nonsense. Um So before we want to more important things like our whole days, I just got to say this respectability thing that you talk about with how afraid we are to perform our real selves when we are political bull It also happens, I think in our professional lives, no matter whether it's politics or not. Like, the thing about being a good, respectable black woman is you immediately, yeah, you start putting on the drag, right, You've got to present this certain face. And like, I'm really empathetic to that because I think AOC has frankly some privileges she can draw on that somebody like Yana Presley cannot. Right, people are there to attack a black woman for just waking up in the morning, and if she were to like crack a joke on Instagram, I honestly think they send out the National Guard, you know what I'm saying. Having said that, I do think that with everything burning down like risk it anyway, That's where I'm at. Yeah, I hear people talk about my Instagram, even my mother, especially my mom, because you know, I look like her throughout time. This is what this is what, this is my life exactly her best thing. So my mom calls me that I'm her best thing. So it's you want to move into my house, anything to create a tiny when that Netflix or HBO moment happened, She's like, build me a tiny house. I was like, girl, you're gonna stay in the tiny house in the back Listen, listen, I'm going to tell you a quick story. Somebody's somebody whose parents live in the tiny house in the backyard. Let me tell you. My mom is already like I need three bedrooms, rocksand and I'm just like, that's definitely gonna be my mother. For sure. She does not disappoint. She's definitely gonna want to experience. But I think that's what I really am. Team take up as much space as you possibly can be yourself. Like it sounds like so frivolous, but as someone who was constantly trying to practice being my full self, you really don't know even how far it can go until you start the process. I remember the first time I got my hair colored, like when I decided to really commit to my uniform of crop tops, Like it's my favorite moment with my love. I love a crop top. Was when I had to before the pandemic, I had to present in d C. And I was presenting on political narratives and I wore a crop top and some some white leg pants and that's what she gave, because I just feel like a lot of these spaces weren't meant for me, regardless even if I am perfect. And if you put on the drag, that's the thing. Even if I put on the drag, I am never them. So I may as well be fully myself because I am not only more comfortable. But here's the thing that I don't think we give enough value to. I'm having a good time. I'm really having a ball. And the reality is this is when when I think about the folks who I bring into rooms with me, when I talk about black voters or black audiences, I'm them, you know, like, I'm not going to separate myself from that. Um when when you're organizing or you're coming into organizing, where people say, find your political home, find your political home. I spent most of my twenties finding this political home and really just not fitting in the way I assumed to I would fit in because I'm like, oh, we all agree, right, and it's like, uh no, um, even in black spaces. I'm a dark skinned, fat black girl, right and with its own set of challenges. But my my goal for folks is how can you become your own political home. How can you start with self to really, um, not just talk about black feminism, but enacted in your life. How are you thinking differently about your family structures? Um? I refer to my auntie, myself as an auntie. Literally, I'm an aunt um. And sometimes when we talk about parenting people or people who are raising kids, I'm left out of that narrative. But the reality is I'm a critical part of my sister's children's life, right, and I want that to be honored. And I started to include it more because I'll read bios from like people who are mothers and they're like, I'm a mother of three, and I'm like, well, I'm a yeah, you know, because that that's also part of my political friend. Let me just tell you I started doing that at some point earlier in my career, where I would list the women who had made me in my fio. Right um, O'rell's granddaughter, Vivian's daughter, right da da da? And I had a white woman come up to me after a talk. So this is this is post lower ed prefix. I'm in a you know, I got enough to be feeling myself, but I still need to keep a job, you know what I'm saying that was the moment and awful that that context is. And I knew her. She was not a stranger, So like this is somebody who's if anybody should have, you know, had a better read on who and what I am, is my point. And I will never forget this woman coming up to me after a talk I gave and said, just so you know, You're never gonna get anywhere, uh in life until you let go of that whole your whole mother problem, a mother problem. Yes, why yes that was white, and that she yet because thank you or any other kind of a miss Vivian, Because I mean, this was so foreign to my understanding of how you even navigate the fucking world as a human being. And I thought, I have heard about your wayward drug did the son for ten years. I know all that boy's business. He wrecked the car, he did. But somehow, when I say I'm some one's daughter, I'm the one with the narrative problem. And I started to understand that there was no narrative that I, as a black woman, that was going to have that wasn't going to piss off for the record, some white person somewhere or some man somewhere there is yeah. Yeah, So if anything, I have doubled down like you with like being an aunt. I'm like, yes, I'm my aunt, I'm a godmother, I'm this some of that, because what I really think they have a problem with is the fact that we are something other than an appendage of them, correct that we care for people other than, for example, our readership. Because find and this seems to be unique to black women, and I would say also Latin X women and Native American women. When we develop a following, however modest that following might be, people tend to believe that that is our primary thing that we have to care take. And I'm like, I actually don't care to take you at all. I write, you read, We engage perhaps, and you know, but I'm Nicole's daughter and Michael's daughter first and last and always, whether I'm happy with them or not. And you know, it's something I think that you know, there's this fundamental difference, and it's a cultural difference about what we prioritize. And this actually ties back to what we were talking about at the beginning of our conversation about how white people are excited for the political so and so to start up again while we are exhausted, and you know, it's because we have bonds, Like we have things that excite us and that nurture us and nourish us, and that we nurture and nourish beyond the political and it's interesting to see the absence. I actually feel quel sad for them. Yeah yeah, yeah. And at the at the very end of the day, these are the people who will take care of us, regardless of if that readership is they're not y, regardless of if we get the promotions and the raises. I go back to Carol Phillips and cry about this. I'm I'm always amazed to how there's this illusion that can be presented, especially to smart black girls, that somehow, once we go through college and we get these jobs that we are supposed to like separate from our families, like oh yeah, they're over there and we're over here. And the thing that I love, I'm also a twin, um, the thing that I have valued across time. Did you like? I'm like, how did I know? That's why Hannah is so my niece is so similar to me, even though we're fraternal twins. I really feel like my sister had my child. So but I think that's kind of the narrative that I got as a kid too, like when you're smart, you have to separate from everybody. So re positioning our families as not only our support system, but for me really amused and and they are who I take this stuff back to. If they don't get it, then I'm not going to keep moving in that direction. And this is I value education, I value knowledge creation, but I also want them to be a part of that. I don't want to stay too far in a place where they cannot enter. That's right, everywhere I go, my family can be Remember my mom coming to one of My mother has come to many of my academic talks. And what I love it is very early on in my graduate school career, she made a concerted effort to understand the career. Right. She was like, okay, she come to me, and she'd gotten to wait a minute, she said, because my mama could pick up on a shade. She may not understand the particulars, but she gets politics small p very well. And she go like, I didn't like the way that person said so, and so it's title what was happening there? You know? And so she made a concerted effort and to understand and like what my research was about. And so my mom has come to my talk to my niece comes to my talks in my book events, and I say to them, and my mom can get really sort of cag because not all of my family members know how to act. So she'll go, Okay, she'll go, you sure you won't Aunt Gene the gum, And I'm like, listen, if I'm there and Aunt Jane can't be there, I'm not there. So now, to be fair, Aunt Jane shows I asked every single time. The last time she came to a book event, for whatever reason, she had decided that day to have a Jamaican accent. Yes, that's all I'm telling you. You know, God bless her. She shows her ass every time. But I refuse to be embarrassed by my people. This is what we do. This is what we do. And I don't know if y'all feel this way too about I'm thinking about your essay, No your whites. But even all these years that I've been doing this work, when I have a real problem with how to navigate whiteness, my mother gives me the best hands down time. And it's been like that since I was a kid. What time I decided that I wanted to work a job and like make extra money. And I applied for a pharmacy position, which how did I get to do that? Yeah? I did that when I was Oh my goodness, I didn't say things, but I was a pharmacy. Yes, I applied for a job at CBS in the pharmacy. And you know, they used to do those tests about like us. It's like a morality test, like you need ten cents? Do you grab it from the cash register or do you like basically asking you a bunch of questions that will you steal from us? And I remember taking the test and I was like, mom, what is this? I don't know how to take this test? And she goes answered like a white person. I was like okay, and I answered the questions. And when I went into the interview, they were like, you really scored high on this, So you scored really high on this test. Would you mind taking it again in and that I know I couldn't. I can't. I couldn't. I couldn't do that particular job because already I was coming in. Yeah, I'm like I don't have about your mother? Your mother understood the test because your mom had been taking that that test, a version of that test or whole like, that's why our parents know that's right. They've been taking that test, whether it was on paper or not, they've been taking a version of the how White are You test their whole lives. And she knew exactly what that knew what it was. So when I come to her with a problem with like these huge entities, she's like, oh, dude, this like or think about it like this, or don't let people treat you like this, or this is a moment where it's absolutely okay for you to stand up for yourself. Yeah, we all say it, you know, they say it differently, but you gotta decode in that's right, that's right going off in the boardroom. Okay, So that to me that I want to make sure they're good and I want to create political practices and culture. You talk about political education being left to superstars, and I think what I know for sure is I have grown into this personality of being able to do both, being able to exist in this political space, in this cultural space, and I think my my goal with a lot of this stuff or with who who I'm becoming as a storyteller, as someone who is an activist who cares about certain issues. Is an entry point too, and sometimes a little sneaky entry point because some of the spaces I show up in, like the Breakfast Club when I was on there, it's like you're expected to do one thing, and I can grab you with a joke or with humor, with a good story, and then I'm like, well, have you heard about Bill Hooks? You know, like really trying to transition people into believe in themselves. I think that's that's I want black specific black women to believe what they're going through, to really know that it's not just us, that there are systems that play, that there are things happening around us. That it's not like whether or not you wore the right length skirt or whether or not you had a handkerchief to cover your legs or not. Like I want us to understand that there's all these things that play. That's why it's so important for us to enter as we are. That's the ultimate goal. You really have touched on something I think that's so crucial and that we've been talking about in different ways, that we live in the world as we are and where we come from and who we come from. How do we encourage people of color, black people in particular, to be comfortable enough to be in the world as we are because there are so many messages that we receive that we have to compromise our blackness, we have to fix our hair because there's something wrong with it. You know, it's overwhelming. And so when I see the lost black people who have given over too white supremacy, I'm not as much angry as I am sad because I know that they just gave up. And so how do you keep your head up? How do you do this? And what can other people learn to how to in terms of how to do that? Yeah, it is a giving up. That's I think. Going back to a piece of this, which is joy, I think we have to demonstrate it. I think sometimes we don't know until we know, We don't know until we see it. Um. Last night, my really good friend Jasmine Walker, who I did a podcast with called The Black Joy Mixtape, she had me watch this documentary called The Aggressives UM, which is about butch lesbians and studs and trans masculine folks. And one of the storylines was this person felt like they were a tomboy of their whole life. And then they went to the village and they saw women who presented as butch and they went home and cut their hair. And I think that I count. I can point to so many moments where I have seen something that I did not know what's possible, and then realize that's who I am, That's that's what it is. So I think that as storytellers, as creators, our job is to put a light on all these different ways of being and being that as well. I think initially I was talking to someone else about this show and I was like, the when I think about Joy, I think about the like you all are writers, your geniuses, and you're you're really contributing the culture in this way. But then I love the Instagram content that um you make around cooking, right, said like there are times like you literally don't know where this is gonna go, and you're like, tastes great, And I'm like, it's so yeah, it's so important. It's so small, but it's so important to see that part of your personality that yes, you will read down white supremacy and bake a bread that might not look good, but it tastes good right, it tastes good right, or trust your love of like decor, like very this very southern decor style of like I think about your your book party. That was one of my favorite Again, a moment where I'm like, oh, we can do this, like you know at Barnes and nobody's yeah, and I don't do that. Yeah yeah they're and whiskey shi. It was grids and I'm just like, what, you come to a trusty book party, you will be fat, and you will dance period dag on straight. You will. We don't play that. I looked around at all of those don't. I've gone to my fair share and we'll go to them again. It's fine. But if it's my party, it's gonna be a party. My party should feel like me. So I feel like what you're saying us is that if life is this part and this, if this is our party, it should feel like us. Yeah. I mean you literally get to pick everything out like you. And I also hear you saying roles and not in the cheesy way. But when you see people like living their truth, when you see Tracy having a kick ass book party or you know my little Instagram, you know that this is a possibility that I did not think was a possibility. Yeah, you can have a spiral Ham at a book party. If you don't if you learn nothing else from me, people, this is what I want you to know. You know what, let me say that you can't absolutely spiral hand. Those people will a lie to you and tell you that people don't do it. Ham goes everywhere, Honey, it does. Ham keeps. Okay, thank were telling me all this stuff. I said, first of all, everything you have described that does not keep Ham keets. You can put Ham in your purse and it'll be five hour later. So I'm just saying, respect the spiral Ham. Listen, fellas, We've got a question. We like to ask everybody, but especially black women who come in the show. Are you ready, yes, tell us how we can help you? Do you Roxy? And I to show the audience, how can we help Amber? Do you Wow? Such a excellent um one. The fact that you all see me is just chef's kiss. Like I I wish I had more words, But to be seen by other people is an honor, and to be named by them is always an honor. I think about how in the past as much as I talk about the rature of black women in films. I know that I'm speaking about that because that's often how I have felt. I have felt like, Um, my work isn't good enough unless it's coming off the lips of someone else, or um a lot of spaces, or work that a movement, work that I contribute to, or creative work that I contribute to. It's assumed that that's us what black girls do, right. We're not. We're not always named as the creative inspiration or the genius behind some of the culture that we spark. And I think how folks can help me is I love engaging with folks who are like, this inspired me to do this, or this is how I was able to carry on the work that you're doing. So I think naming is really important to me right now, and um, I'm working on releasing a project, and how folks can help me is like, just stay tuned. If you're already engaged on my Instagram, stay there. If you want to follow me on Twitter, do it. I think that I'm invested in building contexts around my experience as a black girl in any support of that. UM, naming of that is always excellent. I really, y'all y'all will be some of the first people I share it with. To be honest, I was about to say, let us know, yeah, I would love that. So I think there's a piece and then there's so much stuff that will tell us no. But I want y'all to keep going because I get so many knows. I take a lot of els and quiet, but I hope that whatever knows that you all get that you keep going. I'm like, this is all praise. But like when it came across mine, I look at the McArthur Jeans grants every year and I'm like, oh, ship, can I cus let it out? When I saw your your being on that, I was like, oh wow, may this continue? May get even more specific about the details and lives of black women, black girls by queer folks like trans people, because I don't want us to go another decade believing that we don't exist. Yeah, I just want to be in it for years and years and years, for generations and generations and generations. So that's how folks can help. Just stay tuned and please keep creating, keep sharing these thoughts because we need them. Hannah needs them, my Miles needs we all need it. We all need to be the keepers and the care I have a cultural legacy that that is us. Well. Amber, we know that you are going to be around for a seriously time and I speak for both Truscy and I when I say we are very excited to see what you do next. You are a bright, bright streeting star and a force in this world. And we thank you for everything you do for you A star war girl, you a Stara. Thank you Amber, Thank you Amber, Stay safe, stay well, stay joyful girl. I love it. Thank you ye. And that's our show for this week. Thanks to all of you who've been emailing us and tweeting about Here to Slay. We really do love hearing from you. Roxane and I are constantly shooting your messages back and forth to each other. A special thanks to Jamila this week, who told us that her husband is more aware of the staffing in his office because she makes him listen to Hear to Slay in the car and as on a result of being more aware, he is paying more attention to hiring black women because she said to him, did gotta listen to hear to Slay If you don't already force the man in your life to listen Okay, what's the worst that can happen? Meanwhile, follow us and tell us what you think of the show on Twitter and Instagram at h E A R to Slay from Luminary. Here to Slay is executive produced by US rock band Gay and Truscy McMillan, cottem Our. Senior producers Curtis Fox, and our producer is Katherine Fenelosa. Production support from Lauren Garcia and Caitlin Adams, and our wonderful interns are Ally McPherson and us Okay, Samuel Right. I felt like when we're on, we're on.