I Ami Amlah. I had a baby daddy relationship. I spent time in a relationship with a married man. I had to learn the skills and tools required to make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the Our Spot, a production of shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Listen. Leaving isn't easy. I just want you to know that leaving a relationship isn't easy. Maybe maybe I had mentioned once before, I just want to say again that leaving a relationship, a loving, intimate relationship, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not easy on any level, in leaving any kind of relationship, but loveship or familyship or friendship, it's not easy. But there are those times and situations when it's absolutely necessary. But there's a process and there's a way to do it. Sometimes you can't leave a relationship right away. Sometimes you have to leave in stages. I've mastered the art of leaving in stages, okay, and you must understand your reasons for doing it. Leaving isn't easy, but it can be done. Greetings beloved, Welcome to the Our Spot and how may I support you today? What is your relationship challenge the Lemma issue. First, I'd like to say thank you for sharing your talents with me today. I really appreciate you taking my call. Well, I appreciate you calling, I said. The issue that I'm having today is if marital issues with myself and my husband. We've been married eighteen years now. We have two beautiful children through adoption. It was a very long road to become parents, and I thought all was well in our world until about five years ago when he developed an emotional relationship with a coworker. It happened to be during a very stressful time in our life. My daughter was diagnosed to some neurological differences, and I was very stressed out with work, and so we just became disconnected and he found comfort in the companionship with another woman. I don't believe that there was a physical affair, but they were coworkers, so I don't know that for sure. I thought we had moved on from that, and then I had forgiven him and we were working on a relationship when two months ago I found out that he was communicating with a woman who he'd connected with over Instagram and sending um photos and videos back and forth. For a short period of time before I found them. And so today I'm very much struggling with what to do from this point forward, knowing that we have two beautiful children that I love dearly. I do love my husband. He has been different this time around in that he's, you know, he's he's promising to work on us and putting us first and repairing the relationship. Um, he's decided to go to counseling to find out, you know, the root cause of his insecurities and things, and and I do see a lot of effort on his apart my fears that I don't I don't really know what my heart wants at this point, whether that's move on or um, continue in the relationship and try to make it work. I feel like I owe that to our kids. But at the same time, UM, you know, this is kind of the second time that that I've really done just hurt so sadly. UM, and I'm not sure if I can move on from that. Okay, lots going on. Hey, yeah, yeah, So a couple of things I heard you say. Is it that you don't know what your heart wants or you're scared, afraid, hesitant to say what your heart warts. I think it's a combination of both. Um. I think I think I'm very much afraid of all that I'll lose in dissolving our marriage, such as UM, you know, family, stended family. After being married for nineteen years now, I love his family dearly. They've They've become as close to me as my own. Um. His parents are the type of parents that I would have always wanted. Um, My relationship with my own parents' is a little bit more strained. But he also is a good father, and if you're not married to him, he'll stop being a good father. No. No, I don't think you could stop being a good father. And if you're not married to him, you can't have a relationship with his parents. I think they would choose him over a relationship with me. I think they would think that that keeping ties with me might be not fair to him. Are you a college graduate? I am. Did you take psychic one on one in college? Oh? You didn't take psychic one on one to be able to see what other people are thinking? No? No? Oh, okay, because you seem to be so focused on what other people will think as opposed to asking questions. Yeah, I guess the reason my thoughts were on that end, is that they never reached out to me after they found the house the first time around, and I wasn't their business, wasn't wasn't their business? No, that's true. They can't be up in your marriage. Did you reach out to them? No, So you wanted them to come uninvited and unasked into your marriage. Yeah? And what did you want them to do when they got in the marriage. I guess I just wanted them to know that they were there for me, or that they would let me know that they were there for me regardless of what happened. Well, you don't know that they weren't because you didn't go as a woman to another elder woman woman his mother and say, look, I'm having this challenge with my husband, not with your son, but I'm having this challenge with my husband. Okay, So I want to ask you this question again. Is it that you don't know what your heart wants? Or is it that you're afraid to look at what your heart wants because you're looking at the negative possibilities? What does your heart want? And ask you what can you make happen? But what does your heart want? Honestly? Yeah? Yeah, honestly, no lie to me. I wish I could go back in time to wear before the heart ache. And what exactly is the heart ache and the broken trust? Yeah? Seeking seeking companionship and friendship and emotional connection with someone other than me. What does the story you tell yourself about why he did that that wasn't enough? Yes? And how old is that message in your brain? How old is I'm not enough? When was the first time you thought that? Oh gosh, childhood? Yeah? Yeah, this goes way back. So this is what I'm hearing you say. And if any of this doesn't land for you, just tell me and will pick it apart. Hearing you say that you were married, that you've been married to a man that you love, and in your time of mothering attending to your daughter in addition to work, in addition to your own brushing your teeth and combing your hair, your husband developed an emotional relationship with a woman. You're in dilemma as to whether you can trust the man you love, who's betrayed you twice, who's violated your trust twice. However, competing with that is your fear of dissolving your marriage and what that would mean to you. To your children, what that would mean in terms of your relationships with his family and under that you haven't really checked in with yourself to know what your heart wants, other than to go back in time time, which you know you can't do. I want to offer you that what you wanted your husband to get his stuff together and stop this foolishness running around with other women, that's what you really want. Would that be accurate? Absolutely? Oh? So why can't you say that? So? I wonder what else you don't say in your marriage from the fear and the belief that you're not enough. We'll talk about that right after this break. Welcome back to the OAR spot. Let's get back to the conversation. I want to know how you knew, how you found out about both the emotional relationship and the online relationship. How did you find that out? The first time? It was seeing his account on our shared electronic device and encountering the mess where he's professing his love to the person that this only circumstances were different, That you know that they could be together, but understanding why they couldn't, and that they would need to part ways, but that he would forever love her, and that made you feel? What did he hear? Your husband for professing his love for another woman made you feel? What? This completely utterly abandoned and rejected and as though I didn't matter in our relationship at all. And when you confronted him or confronted him about it, what did he say? Oh? He tried to tell me that it meant absolutely nothing, and of course I did not believe him. And how did you heal that? How did you heal that betrayal, that violation of trust, that broken commitment? How did you heal that? I tried to work on myself. I tried to um, I took up taekwondo, UM, I started being a therapist. I really tried to focus on me. Um obviously, you know, having thought that that my issues and my depression during that time, but that I was the problem and the the reason why he had disconnected. Okay, and then in the second how far apart were these instances the first emotional relationship? And yeah, approximately five years? Okay, five years? Please got the five years itch we had that happened to be up north with with friends of ours, the kids play in a lake, and um and came upon it, by surprise, came upon what um the well Uh, I'd asked to borrow a stone and he made sure to um close out all the apps before handing it to which brought on suspicion on my part. And so then I did go looking through the text messages to find something, some sort of indication of what why why he seems so suspicient before, you know, before handing over the phone. And then I had found a text from an unknown number saying, UM, you know, let's chat over WhatsApp. And when I found the WhatsApp apps, then I found them the dialogue and it had only been going on for about a week, but um, that time was enough to share some you know, not so um clean material and um again you know, just was crushed. So you are married to a man who you're disconnected from emotionally. I guess you're married to a man who's betrayed you to us. You're married to a man who's violated his commitment to his vows, married to a man who disrespects and dishonors himself because he's sneaking around with other woman. Women doesn't have anything to do with you. It's about him. You're married to a man who doesn't have integrity. You're married to a man who is emotionally dishonest. Never mind what he's done to you, Look at what he's done to these other two women, those women. So this is the man you want to stay married to? Is that what I'm hearing you say? I don't know? Yeah, you do know. Stop saying you don't know. You absolutely do know. It's just that hearing it is a little shocking and horrifying. Yeah, do you want to stay mad? See? See, here's the thing. Beloving. Love is durable. Love is like teflon on iron. It can endure, and it can be patient, and it can forgive, and it can do all of that never fails. It's trust that's fragile. And once trust is broken, it taints everything. And sometimes because we love, we love out a habit we think we are supposed to love or have to love and do love no matter what. The question becomes, do you want to remain married to a man you cannot trust and a man who triggers up your core belief that you're not enough? No, and you can heal up I'm not enough. You can do the work and you can uncover that, and you can heal that up. That's not going to repair the trust between you and a man who has no integrity, who is emotionally dishonest, who doesn't honor commitments, who's betrayed your trust. You healing your issue is not going to change that. So the question becomes, do you want to stay married to a man who behaves that way? And do you trust that he'll get his stuff together? Because if you do, go to counseling, get it handled and figure it out step by step. But it's going to start with you being honest with yourself about what the soup is that you're making. Because this is a soup. You got all kinds of stuff in here, his parents, your parents, you know, the love, the habits, the attachments, the fears, anger, hurt, rejection, abandon all of that's in the soup. Yeah, how tasty? Is it? Not? Very? No? And I dare to say, and please forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to be wrong. What was the consequence of him having this emotional relationship or him doing it again with somebody else? What was the consequence? I don't know other than yeah, why should he change? Why should he change? There's no consequence to his behavior He'll put up with you moping and poping and fussing and cussin or whatever you do, and and cheating him bad, putting him in a box by the stove for sixty days. You can't see your naked for another thirty and then you go right back to the same thing. So the question becomes, do you want to fight for this marriage with some real clear intentions and consequences, or do you want to keep sucking on this a bit of soup. I don't want to be I don't want to be heartbroken again. I don't I don't want to him in mistrust and living fear. You know. But you know, maybe here from now, two years, three years, five years from now, you know that I end up in the same exact place I am today. Have you told him that that I have? And what has his response been? He says he takes every day one day at a time, focused on the right things. He brought himself a bracelet that says commitment on it. Did he buy you one? No, he brought himself. Y'all should be wearing the same bracelet. Um. So he said he was just going to take it day by day, focusing on the right things. And making intentions to prove to me just how much I matter to him and how much he wants me in his life. Um, but it's only been a few months, and my concern is that over time, but that's you know, that's that'll fall by the wayside, and you know, five years from now we're left. You know, the things get back to the old normal. It may it may not, but you've given him all the power. What do you want? I think that's the first question I asked you, what do you want? See? When I was married, there are two things that I didn't do. I put up with a lot. I stayed in a marriage of domestic violence for nine years. Nine years I put up with that. The two things that you know just turned me into a Tasmanian devil. One is cheating and one is messing with my money. Do not mess with my money. I don't play that. I don't care who you are. I'm going, I'm out. I'm out. And unfortunately, so very often in marriages, we go into these marriages and we don't have a deal breaker. And when I counsel people into marriage, I set up the deal breaker up front, because then there's no more conversation this is the deal breaker. You break this deal, I'm out. I don't care if it's ten years, twenty two, eighty six. This is the deal breaker. So my question to you would be, what is your deal breaker? It's not a man who lies, because he's lied to you and you're there. It's not a man who lives honorably and with integrity because he's shown you that that's not who he is. And yes, people make mistakes, and yes people can change, but what is your role and responsibility towards yourself in the process. Then he's done this and there's no consequences, so why should he change? So you know you're so worried about what you're gonna lose, imagine what you're gonna gain. And I am not at all counseling you out of your marriage and the fact I want to support you in learning how to stay. But you gotta have a deal breaker, and that's got to be clear to you. You have to know what it is, and you have to know why it is. You have to communicate it to him with a clear consequence for breaking the deal, because if you don't do that, it's like if you don't have strong boundaries and strong walls. You know, any old thing passing by can just drop in. Sometimes when we face a life altering change, we dismiss it, or deny it or resist it because we don't know that we're enough to handle it. Are you enough for you? With him or without him? Are you enough for you? I need to work on that. Yeah. I need to share my strength. I need to establish clear boundaries and communicate them. You might want to tell him that, Okay, you broke my heart and I don't trust you, and you didn't buy me a commitment bracelet fool. So what are you actually committed to? Your risk? Is that what you committed to? Because obviously you ain't committed to me. I'm glad you can laugh, because you know you gotta find a humor into somebody's name. He's committed to his wrist. He ain't committed to you. Yeah, So what, my beloved, do you want to do? I need to prove that I am strong. I need to prove to myself that I am powerful, not prove. Believe, not prove, because in order to get proof, you need external validation. You need to believe that you are strong. You need to believe that you are enough. You need to believe that you are powerful. Okay, and stop lying to yourself saying you don't know what you want. You absolutely do know what you want. You want your marriage to work, but you want your marriage to work with integrity and with honor and with respect and with love and with gentleness and kindness. And if you can get laid every now and then that'll be good too. You don't want to be in a marriage with a man who's sending his pictures to his We needed somebody on them. What app Oh no, what's your What the hell I want? And you can let him know. I'm willing to fight for this marriage, but I'm not willing to fight for the marriage to a man who has no integrity and who dishonors himself, because you can't honor me if you're dishonoring yourself. And if you're not willing to fight like that, you know, and I say fight, meaning you know, stand up for your marriage. If you're not willing to fight like that, then make your exit plan. You don't have to leave tomorrow, but that's what I would do. I'm from Brooklyn. I don't know where you live. The Midwest. Oh yeah, that's what's wrong with that's what's wrong with you. You out there at La La Land are from the hard, cold city. Baby. Wait a minute, and here's what I want you to know. It's okay that you've been there. It's okay. It's okay that you've been sad and hurt and embarrassed and afraid. That's okay. Just don't buy real estate there. Okay, you're gonna be just fine. Stay in touch with your heart. Okay, that's quiet time, listening, journaling, ask her what she knows to be true. Get clear about your deal breakers and what the consequence of each one of them is. Get clear about that and be willing to enact your consequences as a sign of respect that you can trust yourself and take your power back from him. Take your power back, okay, and knowing that you are enough, you'll be good either way it goes you let me know, okay. I will thank you, ma'am. Okay, all right, my love, have a blessed day. All right, God bless you always, except thank you, bye bye. Leaving a relationship is not the same as leaving because this or that happened. Leaving a relationship is always a choice. It's a choice to do what's best and right for you. Because staying in a relationship because of what the other person may or may not do. Leaving a relationship because of what a person has or has not done, that's never gonna work. Staying or leaving has to be the right choice for you because you are the only one who gets to say what goes on in your life after the break. Will come back with my second caller, who has a similar issue, but for a very different reason. Welcome back. I am y'all len this is the our spot. Usually when people ask me should I leave? I sense that they know they should, They just don't know how. So they stay. They stay for a variety of reasons. They stay because it's comfortable thet stay before, because it's familiar, They stay because it's a habit. They stay because they take the little good parts and try to blow them up big enough to make the relationship work. It's not gonna work. Just listen. Good to new, my beloved. Thank you for your patience and welcome to the our spot. How can I serve support assists move with you through your relationship dilemma today? Thank you for having me. I'm just so blessed with this opportunity. My question is I've been in a relationship now for off and on for eight years, and during the eight years, we've been through a lot. And during that time, I went to therapy, and I've done any of management. I've done a few things to try to better myself. And so I mean, now we're at the point where we're not the same people anymore, and I don't know if it's something that I should continue to fight for and pursue or is it something that is now time for us to kind of dissolve and go our sepul Okay, so let me ask you a question. After eight years and all that you've been through, is this something that you should pursue or something that you should leasing go your separate way. I don't know, absolutely, you do know through our relationship, I want to pursue us being together. I don't want to release it, Okay, So stay it. Sometimes staying feels it though it doesn't align with who I am, But I know there's no one out there it's going to be perfect. So even if I release it and move on, I feel steel fight with you know, it's gonna be someone else that's not gonna be perfect, And how do you just know when it's time to fight and to stay. No, it's just not perfect. Well, after eight years, if it ain't what you want, it's probably time to move on. But I didn't know you were pursuing perfection because that's a that is a wasted effort. Yeah, it's all perfect. It's all the way it needs to be for you to learn what you need to learn. But you fell in love with somebody and you're not that person anymore, and neither is he that person. So it sounds to me like you're staying out of habit familiarity and comfortability. And is that what you want? Habit familiar You know? Grandma used to say, better the devil you know than the one you don't know. I'll go with the one I don't know because that might be a little exciting. But after eight years therapy and anger management, clear acknowledgement that you're not who you used to be, what is the question this time ago? Yes, you know, here's the question Rather than should you go? The real question is why would you want to stay? Because that's where the issue is. The issue is not in leaving. The issue is what am I pursuing here? And can I get it. The issue is if I stay, what am I staying in? Because I heard you say you've been on and off right, So rather than looking at the difficulty in leaving, I would look at the benefit of staying or the difficulty in staying, because that may be where the problem is. So if you stay, what are you staying in a relationship that's familiar to me? Being in comfort? Yeah, it is a lot easier. Oh, it's so familiar. Change's uncomfortable and I don't like. Yeah, staying in a relationship that's comfortable, staying in a relationship that's familiar, staying in a relationship that's easy to accommodate and tolerate the dysfunction or the lack of fulfillment or whatever. Um, you know, staying in a relationship out of habit, staying in a relationship out of fear that you find the same thing somewhere else, as opposed to staying in a relationship or getting out of a relationship with excitement that now you know what you don't want? You know, yeah, and when you have it's a blend of family. So you know, my friend is a part of this, and I, yeah, I don't want to go back and forth, and I don't want to stay in it just you know, just because so I want to you know, s an example for him as well. So it's just it's a lot in it, and yeah, I gotta make Yeah, well, you are setting an example for him how to be unhappy, how to accommodate what you don't want, how to how to be unfulfilled, how to do how to accept less than you want or deserve or desire setting an example for him? If that if he so, I know, I've told you I've went through therapy and I've done those things, and it was something that he wants he wants to try at this point, like I want to. I'm telling you this because that's another reason why I thought about saying again, which because now he's wanting to try and get better. But um, I think or would you agree with me, that it's best to kind of let him go off and do his own thing and and see what if it comes back around. So let me ask you this, for you and who you are and what you want to feel and how you want to be, is it best to stick around and see how therapy turns out for him? Or is it best for you to go off and maybe see if it comes back around. Probably best that I go off. The reason I'm asking you these questions is because I get a sense that you know, but you're afraid. I get a sense that you know, and that you are willing to diminish yourself by acting like you don't know. I I put everyone else before what YE know. He's feelings and how he would feel and how he's going to take it is probably over my feelings. And yeah, that's a problem. But yeah, here's something that you that you may want to consider. And this is going to sound very strange. See, the most powerful thing that you have going for you is your choice. Choice is your power. Now you can make a fear based choice, you can make the choice of least resistance. You can make a powerful choice. You can make a self serve supportive, self loving choice. Those are all different kinds of choices that you make. And what happens very often is that we traumatize ourselves by what we think will happen as an outcome of our choices, and then we just don't choose. But by not choosing, you're making a choice. So you're not making a choice for the relationship you're making a choice for you. Can you hear what I'm saying? I absolutely do. Yeah, that's a lot that's that was needed. And you're so right because when you know, you know, I know, and I'm aware of these things, but kind of hard to pull the trigger in it. You go back and forth, so sometimes you just kind of you didn't look at it in a different way. Oh are you are you happy in this relationship? Yes? Or no? No? Okay? Are you peaceful in this relationship? Are you fulfilled in this relationship? Are you sexually satisfied in this relationship that I am? Oh? Okay, So we got one thing. This is an important question. If you're sexually satisfied, why aren't you fulfilled and peaceful? Why are you giving yourself or sharing yourself with someone that doesn't fulfill you and someone that you're not at peace with could just fulfilled for that one area, that the intimacy part, But it's not fulfilled mine. It doesn't fulfil me as a person. So yeah, let me just say this to you. The madam will lie to you. She'll lie, she'll say, Oh it's good, you can do it for a little while, glad, just one more time, come on. It's good God. The madam will lie to you, so you have to tell her shut the hell up, because when you get up from here, you got a whole bunch of other stuff that you don't want to deal with. Shut the matter up, shut up. He will lie to you. Okay, she'll tell you. Oh you can, you can do it, goad, It's all right, just for this is one more time. Come on, come on, see it ain't that bad. And then you get up and you're like, what in the blazing but Jesus am I doing in this mess? Yeah? Yeah, shut her up? And the cycles continue, and then you're blinded to all the other things for just a little bit. Yeah, the same cycle. Not you are I am on it. I am, yeah, I am. Thank you for that. I am blinded to that. Yeah, but I won't see things clearly there. I'm giving them hope and excuses all over again. And yeah, because the madam is lying, do you she's lying. She's a liar. Oh ma, thank you so much for that point. I don't remember anything else about this. Listen. It takes very little to make her happy, very little to make her happy. Okay, a little, a little whatever, you know so much more to me than that. Mmmm. And if I chose to, yeah, just alve this relationship and the greeting process and the you know, the grieving process. Well, why does it have to be a breathing process? Why why can't it be? This is gonna be hurt. It's gonna hurt me. I'm gonna be very hurt. So what I never heard nobody cry theirself to death? No, no. But then one day I'm like, okay, it's a change. Yeah, it's a roller coast. Okay, I'm okay today, But tomorrow I'm and be hurting this. It's gonna be tough for me. I keep doing the same thing, so I'm gonna need it in the next day. I want to go back, you know that whole up and down. Let me let me just say this to you. This is gonna sound weird. I love bread. Bread is my friend. I love to smell it. I love to heat it up and slop all pounds of butter on it. I love love, blah blah blah blah blah bread. I love it. Do you hear me? I walk a country mouth for a p it's a hot bread. But back in twenty sixteen, I had a rupture in my colon, and they took out a piece of my colon and they put me back together and left me with this horrible scar on my belly. But I came home and I was like forty pounds thinner, and I said, I know it, I'll do. I'll eat bread. So I ate some bread, and that thing, girl, it took me down to my knees. I was speaking in tongue and casting out demons because that bread. So a few days later I had some more bread. Same thing happened. I let a few weeks go by, and I said, okay, let me let me have I mean, a sandwich, a barn roll. I can't do it. And finally I had to say to myself, Yamla, you love bread. Bread is your friend, but it's just not good for you. And in that moment, I had to make the choice, am I gonna spend days on my knees casting out demons and speaking in tongues because I love bread? Or am I gonna let the bread go? So when I go to a restaurant and they put it on the table, I have to say, y'amla, that's not good for you. Now go on and eat it. If you want to, but it's not good for you. You love it, but it's not good for you, And sometimes you just have to do that. You have to train yourself to say, you know, I love this. It gives me this or that, or it's comfortable, it's familiar, it's it's easy, but it's not good for me, and then you govern yourself accordingly. Now every now and then, I wi have a piece of bread, I have a sandwich, but I've learned to take my papaya enzymes first so I don't have to fall all the way on my knees. I only have to go halfway, right, Can you hear me? You may love him, but it's not good for you right now, and you don't have to leave today. Make your exit strategy, because the truth is you can't leave until you can stay. You really can't leave until you can stay. Until you can stay in the discomfort, stay in the dysfunction, stay in the unhappiness without judging it or making him wrong. Don't make him wrong. It's just not good for you. And you are the only one who gets to say what goes on in your life. Yes, ma'am, thank you so much for that. I really needed to come and take your time, don't rush yourself, and again, choose for you. Make a choice, not a decision, and don't make him wrong in the process. Don't make him wrong. It's just not I can't make bread wrong. Bread is wonderful, all kinds of bread, hot bread, white bread, brown bread, Italian bread, French bread. I can't make bread wrong. It's just not good for me. Okay, tell me what you know now that you didn't know when you call me today. I'm not fulfilled in a relationship. So yeah, I know a lot more than I knew before I call. I'm and the madam is always hernaged a little bit either. They're not listening to Yeah, she's a liar. You are gonna be just fine. Take your time, take your time. Eight years is a long time, and don't think that you waste the time. You've grown, you've learned, And right out of your mouth, you said to me, we're not the same people, so dare to be different and let me know how you make out. Okay, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you, thank you you to my love. Bye bye. You know, sometimes it's it's not easy to talk about some realities in life. And one of the realities it's hard for me to talk about with women is how the madam will lie to you should a liar. Now, if you want to stay, you've got to be willing to fight, but you got to know how to fight. Fight isn't doing war and doing battle. Fight is standing up for yourself within yourself and setting some real clear parameters and boundaries and require firements in the relationship. And one of the reasons it's hard for us to leave a relationship is because we don't know what our deal breakers are. There's some things that you just gotta know you're not gonna put up with. And if that deal gets broken, there has to be a consequence, and that consequence may be leaving and maybe staying under different circumstances of situations. But it ain't gonna be easy, but it can be done. I hope this has been helpful to someone, And if you have a question about this or any other relationship issue, you can call me live at seven seven five three zero seven seven seven sixty eight. Now be sure to follow me on social media for all of the calling times and until then, stay in peace not peace. The r Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

I Ami Amlah. I had a baby daddy relationship. I spent time in a relationship with a married man. I had to learn the skills and tools required to make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the Our Spot, a production of shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Listen. Leaving isn't easy. I just want you to know that leaving a relationship isn't easy. Maybe maybe I had mentioned once before, I just want to say again that leaving a relationship, a loving, intimate relationship, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not easy on any level, in leaving any kind of relationship, but loveship or familyship or friendship, it's not easy. But there are those times and situations when it's absolutely necessary. But there's a process and there's a way to do it. Sometimes you can't leave a relationship right away. Sometimes you have to leave in stages. I've mastered the art of leaving in stages, okay, and you must understand your reasons for doing it. Leaving isn't easy, but it can be done. Greetings beloved, Welcome to the Our Spot and how may I support you today? What is your relationship challenge the Lemma issue. First, I'd like to say thank you for sharing your talents with me today. I really appreciate you taking my call. Well, I appreciate you calling, I said. The issue that I'm having today is if marital issues with myself and my husband. We've been married eighteen years now. We have two beautiful children through adoption. It was a very long road to become parents, and I thought all was well in our world until about five years ago when he developed an emotional relationship with a coworker. It happened to be during a very stressful time in our life. My daughter was diagnosed to some neurological differences, and I was very stressed out with work, and so we just became disconnected and he found comfort in the companionship with another woman. I don't believe that there was a physical affair, but they were coworkers, so I don't know that for sure. I thought we had moved on from that, and then I had forgiven him and we were working on a relationship when two months ago I found out that he was communicating with a woman who he'd connected with over Instagram and sending um photos and videos back and forth. For a short period of time before I found them. And so today I'm very much struggling with what to do from this point forward, knowing that we have two beautiful children that I love dearly. I do love my husband. He has been different this time around in that he's, you know, he's he's promising to work on us and putting us first and repairing the relationship. Um, he's decided to go to counseling to find out, you know, the root cause of his insecurities and things, and and I do see a lot of effort on his apart my fears that I don't I don't really know what my heart wants at this point, whether that's move on or um, continue in the relationship and try to make it work. I feel like I owe that to our kids. But at the same time, UM, you know, this is kind of the second time that that I've really done just hurt so sadly. UM, and I'm not sure if I can move on from that. Okay, lots going on. Hey, yeah, yeah, So a couple of things I heard you say. Is it that you don't know what your heart wants or you're scared, afraid, hesitant to say what your heart warts. I think it's a combination of both. Um. I think I think I'm very much afraid of all that I'll lose in dissolving our marriage, such as UM, you know, family, stended family. After being married for nineteen years now, I love his family dearly. They've They've become as close to me as my own. Um. His parents are the type of parents that I would have always wanted. Um, My relationship with my own parents' is a little bit more strained. But he also is a good father, and if you're not married to him, he'll stop being a good father. No. No, I don't think you could stop being a good father. And if you're not married to him, you can't have a relationship with his parents. I think they would choose him over a relationship with me. I think they would think that that keeping ties with me might be not fair to him. Are you a college graduate? I am. Did you take psychic one on one in college? Oh? You didn't take psychic one on one to be able to see what other people are thinking? No? No? Oh, okay, because you seem to be so focused on what other people will think as opposed to asking questions. Yeah, I guess the reason my thoughts were on that end, is that they never reached out to me after they found the house the first time around, and I wasn't their business, wasn't wasn't their business? No, that's true. They can't be up in your marriage. Did you reach out to them? No, So you wanted them to come uninvited and unasked into your marriage. Yeah? And what did you want them to do when they got in the marriage. I guess I just wanted them to know that they were there for me, or that they would let me know that they were there for me regardless of what happened. Well, you don't know that they weren't because you didn't go as a woman to another elder woman woman his mother and say, look, I'm having this challenge with my husband, not with your son, but I'm having this challenge with my husband. Okay, So I want to ask you this question again. Is it that you don't know what your heart wants? Or is it that you're afraid to look at what your heart wants because you're looking at the negative possibilities? What does your heart want? And ask you what can you make happen? But what does your heart want? Honestly? Yeah? Yeah, honestly, no lie to me. I wish I could go back in time to wear before the heart ache. And what exactly is the heart ache and the broken trust? Yeah? Seeking seeking companionship and friendship and emotional connection with someone other than me. What does the story you tell yourself about why he did that that wasn't enough? Yes? And how old is that message in your brain? How old is I'm not enough? When was the first time you thought that? Oh gosh, childhood? Yeah? Yeah, this goes way back. So this is what I'm hearing you say. And if any of this doesn't land for you, just tell me and will pick it apart. Hearing you say that you were married, that you've been married to a man that you love, and in your time of mothering attending to your daughter in addition to work, in addition to your own brushing your teeth and combing your hair, your husband developed an emotional relationship with a woman. You're in dilemma as to whether you can trust the man you love, who's betrayed you twice, who's violated your trust twice. However, competing with that is your fear of dissolving your marriage and what that would mean to you. To your children, what that would mean in terms of your relationships with his family and under that you haven't really checked in with yourself to know what your heart wants, other than to go back in time time, which you know you can't do. I want to offer you that what you wanted your husband to get his stuff together and stop this foolishness running around with other women, that's what you really want. Would that be accurate? Absolutely? Oh? So why can't you say that? So? I wonder what else you don't say in your marriage from the fear and the belief that you're not enough. We'll talk about that right after this break. Welcome back to the OAR spot. Let's get back to the conversation. I want to know how you knew, how you found out about both the emotional relationship and the online relationship. How did you find that out? The first time? It was seeing his account on our shared electronic device and encountering the mess where he's professing his love to the person that this only circumstances were different, That you know that they could be together, but understanding why they couldn't, and that they would need to part ways, but that he would forever love her, and that made you feel? What did he hear? Your husband for professing his love for another woman made you feel? What? This completely utterly abandoned and rejected and as though I didn't matter in our relationship at all. And when you confronted him or confronted him about it, what did he say? Oh? He tried to tell me that it meant absolutely nothing, and of course I did not believe him. And how did you heal that? How did you heal that betrayal, that violation of trust, that broken commitment? How did you heal that? I tried to work on myself. I tried to um, I took up taekwondo, UM, I started being a therapist. I really tried to focus on me. Um obviously, you know, having thought that that my issues and my depression during that time, but that I was the problem and the the reason why he had disconnected. Okay, and then in the second how far apart were these instances the first emotional relationship? And yeah, approximately five years? Okay, five years? Please got the five years itch we had that happened to be up north with with friends of ours, the kids play in a lake, and um and came upon it, by surprise, came upon what um the well Uh, I'd asked to borrow a stone and he made sure to um close out all the apps before handing it to which brought on suspicion on my part. And so then I did go looking through the text messages to find something, some sort of indication of what why why he seems so suspicient before, you know, before handing over the phone. And then I had found a text from an unknown number saying, UM, you know, let's chat over WhatsApp. And when I found the WhatsApp apps, then I found them the dialogue and it had only been going on for about a week, but um, that time was enough to share some you know, not so um clean material and um again you know, just was crushed. So you are married to a man who you're disconnected from emotionally. I guess you're married to a man who's betrayed you to us. You're married to a man who's violated his commitment to his vows, married to a man who disrespects and dishonors himself because he's sneaking around with other woman. Women doesn't have anything to do with you. It's about him. You're married to a man who doesn't have integrity. You're married to a man who is emotionally dishonest. Never mind what he's done to you, Look at what he's done to these other two women, those women. So this is the man you want to stay married to? Is that what I'm hearing you say? I don't know? Yeah, you do know. Stop saying you don't know. You absolutely do know. It's just that hearing it is a little shocking and horrifying. Yeah, do you want to stay mad? See? See, here's the thing. Beloving. Love is durable. Love is like teflon on iron. It can endure, and it can be patient, and it can forgive, and it can do all of that never fails. It's trust that's fragile. And once trust is broken, it taints everything. And sometimes because we love, we love out a habit we think we are supposed to love or have to love and do love no matter what. The question becomes, do you want to remain married to a man you cannot trust and a man who triggers up your core belief that you're not enough? No, and you can heal up I'm not enough. You can do the work and you can uncover that, and you can heal that up. That's not going to repair the trust between you and a man who has no integrity, who is emotionally dishonest, who doesn't honor commitments, who's betrayed your trust. You healing your issue is not going to change that. So the question becomes, do you want to stay married to a man who behaves that way? And do you trust that he'll get his stuff together? Because if you do, go to counseling, get it handled and figure it out step by step. But it's going to start with you being honest with yourself about what the soup is that you're making. Because this is a soup. You got all kinds of stuff in here, his parents, your parents, you know, the love, the habits, the attachments, the fears, anger, hurt, rejection, abandon all of that's in the soup. Yeah, how tasty? Is it? Not? Very? No? And I dare to say, and please forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to be wrong. What was the consequence of him having this emotional relationship or him doing it again with somebody else? What was the consequence? I don't know other than yeah, why should he change? Why should he change? There's no consequence to his behavior He'll put up with you moping and poping and fussing and cussin or whatever you do, and and cheating him bad, putting him in a box by the stove for sixty days. You can't see your naked for another thirty and then you go right back to the same thing. So the question becomes, do you want to fight for this marriage with some real clear intentions and consequences, or do you want to keep sucking on this a bit of soup. I don't want to be I don't want to be heartbroken again. I don't I don't want to him in mistrust and living fear. You know. But you know, maybe here from now, two years, three years, five years from now, you know that I end up in the same exact place I am today. Have you told him that that I have? And what has his response been? He says he takes every day one day at a time, focused on the right things. He brought himself a bracelet that says commitment on it. Did he buy you one? No, he brought himself. Y'all should be wearing the same bracelet. Um. So he said he was just going to take it day by day, focusing on the right things. And making intentions to prove to me just how much I matter to him and how much he wants me in his life. Um, but it's only been a few months, and my concern is that over time, but that's you know, that's that'll fall by the wayside, and you know, five years from now we're left. You know, the things get back to the old normal. It may it may not, but you've given him all the power. What do you want? I think that's the first question I asked you, what do you want? See? When I was married, there are two things that I didn't do. I put up with a lot. I stayed in a marriage of domestic violence for nine years. Nine years I put up with that. The two things that you know just turned me into a Tasmanian devil. One is cheating and one is messing with my money. Do not mess with my money. I don't play that. I don't care who you are. I'm going, I'm out. I'm out. And unfortunately, so very often in marriages, we go into these marriages and we don't have a deal breaker. And when I counsel people into marriage, I set up the deal breaker up front, because then there's no more conversation this is the deal breaker. You break this deal, I'm out. I don't care if it's ten years, twenty two, eighty six. This is the deal breaker. So my question to you would be, what is your deal breaker? It's not a man who lies, because he's lied to you and you're there. It's not a man who lives honorably and with integrity because he's shown you that that's not who he is. And yes, people make mistakes, and yes people can change, but what is your role and responsibility towards yourself in the process. Then he's done this and there's no consequences, so why should he change? So you know you're so worried about what you're gonna lose, imagine what you're gonna gain. And I am not at all counseling you out of your marriage and the fact I want to support you in learning how to stay. But you gotta have a deal breaker, and that's got to be clear to you. You have to know what it is, and you have to know why it is. You have to communicate it to him with a clear consequence for breaking the deal, because if you don't do that, it's like if you don't have strong boundaries and strong walls. You know, any old thing passing by can just drop in. Sometimes when we face a life altering change, we dismiss it, or deny it or resist it because we don't know that we're enough to handle it. Are you enough for you? With him or without him? Are you enough for you? I need to work on that. Yeah. I need to share my strength. I need to establish clear boundaries and communicate them. You might want to tell him that, Okay, you broke my heart and I don't trust you, and you didn't buy me a commitment bracelet fool. So what are you actually committed to? Your risk? Is that what you committed to? Because obviously you ain't committed to me. I'm glad you can laugh, because you know you gotta find a humor into somebody's name. He's committed to his wrist. He ain't committed to you. Yeah, So what, my beloved, do you want to do? I need to prove that I am strong. I need to prove to myself that I am powerful, not prove. Believe, not prove, because in order to get proof, you need external validation. You need to believe that you are strong. You need to believe that you are enough. You need to believe that you are powerful. Okay, and stop lying to yourself saying you don't know what you want. You absolutely do know what you want. You want your marriage to work, but you want your marriage to work with integrity and with honor and with respect and with love and with gentleness and kindness. And if you can get laid every now and then that'll be good too. You don't want to be in a marriage with a man who's sending his pictures to his We needed somebody on them. What app Oh no, what's your What the hell I want? And you can let him know. I'm willing to fight for this marriage, but I'm not willing to fight for the marriage to a man who has no integrity and who dishonors himself, because you can't honor me if you're dishonoring yourself. And if you're not willing to fight like that, you know, and I say fight, meaning you know, stand up for your marriage. If you're not willing to fight like that, then make your exit plan. You don't have to leave tomorrow, but that's what I would do. I'm from Brooklyn. I don't know where you live. The Midwest. Oh yeah, that's what's wrong with that's what's wrong with you. You out there at La La Land are from the hard, cold city. Baby. Wait a minute, and here's what I want you to know. It's okay that you've been there. It's okay. It's okay that you've been sad and hurt and embarrassed and afraid. That's okay. Just don't buy real estate there. Okay, you're gonna be just fine. Stay in touch with your heart. Okay, that's quiet time, listening, journaling, ask her what she knows to be true. Get clear about your deal breakers and what the consequence of each one of them is. Get clear about that and be willing to enact your consequences as a sign of respect that you can trust yourself and take your power back from him. Take your power back, okay, and knowing that you are enough, you'll be good either way it goes you let me know, okay. I will thank you, ma'am. Okay, all right, my love, have a blessed day. All right, God bless you always, except thank you, bye bye. Leaving a relationship is not the same as leaving because this or that happened. Leaving a relationship is always a choice. It's a choice to do what's best and right for you. Because staying in a relationship because of what the other person may or may not do. Leaving a relationship because of what a person has or has not done, that's never gonna work. Staying or leaving has to be the right choice for you because you are the only one who gets to say what goes on in your life after the break. Will come back with my second caller, who has a similar issue, but for a very different reason. Welcome back. I am y'all len this is the our spot. Usually when people ask me should I leave? I sense that they know they should, They just don't know how. So they stay. They stay for a variety of reasons. They stay because it's comfortable thet stay before, because it's familiar, They stay because it's a habit. They stay because they take the little good parts and try to blow them up big enough to make the relationship work. It's not gonna work. Just listen. Good to new, my beloved. Thank you for your patience and welcome to the our spot. How can I serve support assists move with you through your relationship dilemma today? Thank you for having me. I'm just so blessed with this opportunity. My question is I've been in a relationship now for off and on for eight years, and during the eight years, we've been through a lot. And during that time, I went to therapy, and I've done any of management. I've done a few things to try to better myself. And so I mean, now we're at the point where we're not the same people anymore, and I don't know if it's something that I should continue to fight for and pursue or is it something that is now time for us to kind of dissolve and go our sepul Okay, so let me ask you a question. After eight years and all that you've been through, is this something that you should pursue or something that you should leasing go your separate way. I don't know, absolutely, you do know through our relationship, I want to pursue us being together. I don't want to release it, Okay, So stay it. Sometimes staying feels it though it doesn't align with who I am, But I know there's no one out there it's going to be perfect. So even if I release it and move on, I feel steel fight with you know, it's gonna be someone else that's not gonna be perfect, And how do you just know when it's time to fight and to stay. No, it's just not perfect. Well, after eight years, if it ain't what you want, it's probably time to move on. But I didn't know you were pursuing perfection because that's a that is a wasted effort. Yeah, it's all perfect. It's all the way it needs to be for you to learn what you need to learn. But you fell in love with somebody and you're not that person anymore, and neither is he that person. So it sounds to me like you're staying out of habit familiarity and comfortability. And is that what you want? Habit familiar You know? Grandma used to say, better the devil you know than the one you don't know. I'll go with the one I don't know because that might be a little exciting. But after eight years therapy and anger management, clear acknowledgement that you're not who you used to be, what is the question this time ago? Yes, you know, here's the question Rather than should you go? The real question is why would you want to stay? Because that's where the issue is. The issue is not in leaving. The issue is what am I pursuing here? And can I get it. The issue is if I stay, what am I staying in? Because I heard you say you've been on and off right, So rather than looking at the difficulty in leaving, I would look at the benefit of staying or the difficulty in staying, because that may be where the problem is. So if you stay, what are you staying in a relationship that's familiar to me? Being in comfort? Yeah, it is a lot easier. Oh, it's so familiar. Change's uncomfortable and I don't like. Yeah, staying in a relationship that's comfortable, staying in a relationship that's familiar, staying in a relationship that's easy to accommodate and tolerate the dysfunction or the lack of fulfillment or whatever. Um, you know, staying in a relationship out of habit, staying in a relationship out of fear that you find the same thing somewhere else, as opposed to staying in a relationship or getting out of a relationship with excitement that now you know what you don't want? You know, yeah, and when you have it's a blend of family. So you know, my friend is a part of this, and I, yeah, I don't want to go back and forth, and I don't want to stay in it just you know, just because so I want to you know, s an example for him as well. So it's just it's a lot in it, and yeah, I gotta make Yeah, well, you are setting an example for him how to be unhappy, how to accommodate what you don't want, how to how to be unfulfilled, how to do how to accept less than you want or deserve or desire setting an example for him? If that if he so, I know, I've told you I've went through therapy and I've done those things, and it was something that he wants he wants to try at this point, like I want to. I'm telling you this because that's another reason why I thought about saying again, which because now he's wanting to try and get better. But um, I think or would you agree with me, that it's best to kind of let him go off and do his own thing and and see what if it comes back around. So let me ask you this, for you and who you are and what you want to feel and how you want to be, is it best to stick around and see how therapy turns out for him? Or is it best for you to go off and maybe see if it comes back around. Probably best that I go off. The reason I'm asking you these questions is because I get a sense that you know, but you're afraid. I get a sense that you know, and that you are willing to diminish yourself by acting like you don't know. I I put everyone else before what YE know. He's feelings and how he would feel and how he's going to take it is probably over my feelings. And yeah, that's a problem. But yeah, here's something that you that you may want to consider. And this is going to sound very strange. See, the most powerful thing that you have going for you is your choice. Choice is your power. Now you can make a fear based choice, you can make the choice of least resistance. You can make a powerful choice. You can make a self serve supportive, self loving choice. Those are all different kinds of choices that you make. And what happens very often is that we traumatize ourselves by what we think will happen as an outcome of our choices, and then we just don't choose. But by not choosing, you're making a choice. So you're not making a choice for the relationship you're making a choice for you. Can you hear what I'm saying? I absolutely do. Yeah, that's a lot that's that was needed. And you're so right because when you know, you know, I know, and I'm aware of these things, but kind of hard to pull the trigger in it. You go back and forth, so sometimes you just kind of you didn't look at it in a different way. Oh are you are you happy in this relationship? Yes? Or no? No? Okay? Are you peaceful in this relationship? Are you fulfilled in this relationship? Are you sexually satisfied in this relationship that I am? Oh? Okay, So we got one thing. This is an important question. If you're sexually satisfied, why aren't you fulfilled and peaceful? Why are you giving yourself or sharing yourself with someone that doesn't fulfill you and someone that you're not at peace with could just fulfilled for that one area, that the intimacy part, But it's not fulfilled mine. It doesn't fulfil me as a person. So yeah, let me just say this to you. The madam will lie to you. She'll lie, she'll say, Oh it's good, you can do it for a little while, glad, just one more time, come on. It's good God. The madam will lie to you, so you have to tell her shut the hell up, because when you get up from here, you got a whole bunch of other stuff that you don't want to deal with. Shut the matter up, shut up. He will lie to you. Okay, she'll tell you. Oh you can, you can do it, goad, It's all right, just for this is one more time. Come on, come on, see it ain't that bad. And then you get up and you're like, what in the blazing but Jesus am I doing in this mess? Yeah? Yeah, shut her up? And the cycles continue, and then you're blinded to all the other things for just a little bit. Yeah, the same cycle. Not you are I am on it. I am, yeah, I am. Thank you for that. I am blinded to that. Yeah, but I won't see things clearly there. I'm giving them hope and excuses all over again. And yeah, because the madam is lying, do you she's lying. She's a liar. Oh ma, thank you so much for that point. I don't remember anything else about this. Listen. It takes very little to make her happy, very little to make her happy. Okay, a little, a little whatever, you know so much more to me than that. Mmmm. And if I chose to, yeah, just alve this relationship and the greeting process and the you know, the grieving process. Well, why does it have to be a breathing process? Why why can't it be? This is gonna be hurt. It's gonna hurt me. I'm gonna be very hurt. So what I never heard nobody cry theirself to death? No, no. But then one day I'm like, okay, it's a change. Yeah, it's a roller coast. Okay, I'm okay today, But tomorrow I'm and be hurting this. It's gonna be tough for me. I keep doing the same thing, so I'm gonna need it in the next day. I want to go back, you know that whole up and down. Let me let me just say this to you. This is gonna sound weird. I love bread. Bread is my friend. I love to smell it. I love to heat it up and slop all pounds of butter on it. I love love, blah blah blah blah blah bread. I love it. Do you hear me? I walk a country mouth for a p it's a hot bread. But back in twenty sixteen, I had a rupture in my colon, and they took out a piece of my colon and they put me back together and left me with this horrible scar on my belly. But I came home and I was like forty pounds thinner, and I said, I know it, I'll do. I'll eat bread. So I ate some bread, and that thing, girl, it took me down to my knees. I was speaking in tongue and casting out demons because that bread. So a few days later I had some more bread. Same thing happened. I let a few weeks go by, and I said, okay, let me let me have I mean, a sandwich, a barn roll. I can't do it. And finally I had to say to myself, Yamla, you love bread. Bread is your friend, but it's just not good for you. And in that moment, I had to make the choice, am I gonna spend days on my knees casting out demons and speaking in tongues because I love bread? Or am I gonna let the bread go? So when I go to a restaurant and they put it on the table, I have to say, y'amla, that's not good for you. Now go on and eat it. If you want to, but it's not good for you. You love it, but it's not good for you, And sometimes you just have to do that. You have to train yourself to say, you know, I love this. It gives me this or that, or it's comfortable, it's familiar, it's it's easy, but it's not good for me, and then you govern yourself accordingly. Now every now and then, I wi have a piece of bread, I have a sandwich, but I've learned to take my papaya enzymes first so I don't have to fall all the way on my knees. I only have to go halfway, right, Can you hear me? You may love him, but it's not good for you right now, and you don't have to leave today. Make your exit strategy, because the truth is you can't leave until you can stay. You really can't leave until you can stay. Until you can stay in the discomfort, stay in the dysfunction, stay in the unhappiness without judging it or making him wrong. Don't make him wrong. It's just not good for you. And you are the only one who gets to say what goes on in your life. Yes, ma'am, thank you so much for that. I really needed to come and take your time, don't rush yourself, and again, choose for you. Make a choice, not a decision, and don't make him wrong in the process. Don't make him wrong. It's just not I can't make bread wrong. Bread is wonderful, all kinds of bread, hot bread, white bread, brown bread, Italian bread, French bread. I can't make bread wrong. It's just not good for me. Okay, tell me what you know now that you didn't know when you call me today. I'm not fulfilled in a relationship. So yeah, I know a lot more than I knew before I call. I'm and the madam is always hernaged a little bit either. They're not listening to Yeah, she's a liar. You are gonna be just fine. Take your time, take your time. Eight years is a long time, and don't think that you waste the time. You've grown, you've learned, And right out of your mouth, you said to me, we're not the same people, so dare to be different and let me know how you make out. Okay, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you, thank you you to my love. Bye bye. You know, sometimes it's it's not easy to talk about some realities in life. And one of the realities it's hard for me to talk about with women is how the madam will lie to you should a liar. Now, if you want to stay, you've got to be willing to fight, but you got to know how to fight. Fight isn't doing war and doing battle. Fight is standing up for yourself within yourself and setting some real clear parameters and boundaries and require firements in the relationship. And one of the reasons it's hard for us to leave a relationship is because we don't know what our deal breakers are. There's some things that you just gotta know you're not gonna put up with. And if that deal gets broken, there has to be a consequence, and that consequence may be leaving and maybe staying under different circumstances of situations. But it ain't gonna be easy, but it can be done. I hope this has been helpful to someone, And if you have a question about this or any other relationship issue, you can call me live at seven seven five three zero seven seven seven sixty eight. Now be sure to follow me on social media for all of the calling times and until then, stay in peace not peace. The r Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.