You know, the first step before you leave anyone, or before you make any big moves, is to dive into the psychological underpinnings of your own happiness. So stop making lists about sort of do I want to work from home, what city do I want to be in, what kind of money do I want to make, and really try to understand the psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable.

You know, the first step before you leave anyone, or before you make any big moves, is to dive into the psychological underpinnings of your own happiness. So stop making lists about sort of do I want to work from home, what city do I want to be in, what kind of money do I want to make, and really try to understand the psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable.

Here today we have the NYU professor Tesso West on the show. Doctor West studies the nature and dynamics of social perception. She's the author of the book Jerks at Work and more recently job Therapy, Finding work that works for You. In this wide ranging discussion, we discuss how to deal with jerks in the workplace, the different types of jerks, and five common sources of career frustration. We also discussed some great lessons she has learned from collecting data from people who hire, promote, and fire people, such as how to make a resume more appealing. It was so great to finally have doctor West on the show, and there's such a wealth of information in this episode that you won't want to miss. So with that further Ado, I bring you doctor Tessa West.

Here today we have the NYU professor Tesso West on the show. Doctor West studies the nature and dynamics of social perception. She's the author of the book Jerks at Work and more recently job Therapy, Finding work that works for You. In this wide ranging discussion, we discuss how to deal with jerks in the workplace, the different types of jerks, and five common sources of career frustration. We also discussed some great lessons she has learned from collecting data from people who hire, promote, and fire people, such as how to make a resume more appealing. It was so great to finally have doctor West on the show, and there's such a wealth of information in this episode that you won't want to miss. So with that further Ado, I bring you doctor Tessa West.

Welcome Tessa West to the Psychology Podcast.

Welcome Tessa West to the Psychology Podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Some ground rules. If you ever feel anxious or need any mindfulness are grounding during the show. You can borrow my chill pill.

Some ground rules. If you ever feel anxious or need any mindfulness are grounding during the show. You can borrow my chill pill.

Amazing.

Amazing.

It's two hundred and fifty milligrams. So so glad to have you here. Congratulations in your new book, job Therapy, finding the work that works for you?

It's two hundred and fifty milligrams. So so glad to have you here. Congratulations in your new book, job Therapy, finding the work that works for you?

Is it? Okay?

Is it? Okay?

Before we get into the nitty gridy of your new book, can we talk about some of your older works. Since this is your first time ever on the Psychology Podcast, I never had a chance to nerd out with you about like jerks at work for instance.

Before we get into the nitty gridy of your new book, can we talk about some of your older works. Since this is your first time ever on the Psychology Podcast, I never had a chance to nerd out with you about like jerks at work for instance.

Absolutely, yeah, I love that research.

Absolutely, yeah, I love that research.

So you wrote an earlier called jerks at Work Toxic co workers and what to do about them? First of all, do you think nowadays it's kind of calling everyone toxic is maybe starting to get overused a little bit, because now I'm noticing a trend on like TikTok or like every you know thirteen year old is they're like everyone around me's toxic.

So you wrote an earlier called jerks at Work Toxic co workers and what to do about them? First of all, do you think nowadays it's kind of calling everyone toxic is maybe starting to get overused a little bit, because now I'm noticing a trend on like TikTok or like every you know thirteen year old is they're like everyone around me's toxic.

Absolutely. Even when I wrote the book, I sort of hated the subtitle.

Absolutely. Even when I wrote the book, I sort of hated the subtitle.

That's funny.

That's funny.

You know, it's really easy to call someone toxic if they do something that you don't like or they give you negative feedback. I think toxic is overplayed, and it's also just a word we use anytime we feel uncomfortable in a social interaction. We immediately label the person toxic, and it's really hard to actually have a counter to that. Someone calls you toxic and you say, while I was trying to give you honest feedback, that makes you look even more toxic, right, And so yes, I do think it's problematic, and I will be the first person to throw that part of my book title under the bus.

You know, it's really easy to call someone toxic if they do something that you don't like or they give you negative feedback. I think toxic is overplayed, and it's also just a word we use anytime we feel uncomfortable in a social interaction. We immediately label the person toxic, and it's really hard to actually have a counter to that. Someone calls you toxic and you say, while I was trying to give you honest feedback, that makes you look even more toxic, right, And so yes, I do think it's problematic, and I will be the first person to throw that part of my book title under the bus.

Okay, so that said, there are legitimately toxic, legit toxic people at work. Yeah, what are some of the main characteristics, because I know you wrote a cool article saying they're different types of toxic people. I think you outlined five or so. Yeah, could you maybe like go through some of that.

Okay, so that said, there are legitimately toxic, legit toxic people at work. Yeah, what are some of the main characteristics, because I know you wrote a cool article saying they're different types of toxic people. I think you outlined five or so. Yeah, could you maybe like go through some of that.

Yeah, I think most of the kind of most dangerous toxic coworkers have some pretty enviable skill sets. And so one of my favorites is the kiss up kick downer. So this is that person who is just really good at making the boss happy. They tend to be pretty talented at work, and they tend to have a skill of reading the room well, so they know who in power they need to impress. But at the same time, you know, they're pretty mean to the people who work for them or the people who work at the same level as them. So their skill set is really knowing who to impress and who to kind of throw under the bus to help get ahead at work. So they're starfuckers, absolute starfuckers, and we all know, we all know that we know these people stars. They are fucking have no idea. They fall victim to flattery very easily, and I think for good reason, because these people tend to be actually pretty good at their jobs.

Yeah, I think most of the kind of most dangerous toxic coworkers have some pretty enviable skill sets. And so one of my favorites is the kiss up kick downer. So this is that person who is just really good at making the boss happy. They tend to be pretty talented at work, and they tend to have a skill of reading the room well, so they know who in power they need to impress. But at the same time, you know, they're pretty mean to the people who work for them or the people who work at the same level as them. So their skill set is really knowing who to impress and who to kind of throw under the bus to help get ahead at work. So they're starfuckers, absolute starfuckers, and we all know, we all know that we know these people stars. They are fucking have no idea. They fall victim to flattery very easily, and I think for good reason, because these people tend to be actually pretty good at their jobs.

Yeah for sure. Okay, so then what's another type. What's your favorite? What's your favorite type would you like to avoid?

Yeah for sure. Okay, so then what's another type. What's your favorite? What's your favorite type would you like to avoid?

I think the gas lighter is the most Oh, they are on kind of a different level. I like to say that jerks at work are kind of made. They're not born. You know, we grow them out of certain kind of systems in the workplace. But gas lighters there are their own category, and I think they have some kind of personality issues. They're also really motivated to destroy you, whereas I think most jerks are actually not the work. Jerkury is kind of a consequence of their actions, but it's not the real goal. Gaslighters. They lie with the intent of deceiving on a grand scale, and they tend to be very careful and get away with it because they can pull you into all kinds of, you know, unethical behavior that you don't actually see coming.

I think the gas lighter is the most Oh, they are on kind of a different level. I like to say that jerks at work are kind of made. They're not born. You know, we grow them out of certain kind of systems in the workplace. But gas lighters there are their own category, and I think they have some kind of personality issues. They're also really motivated to destroy you, whereas I think most jerks are actually not the work. Jerkury is kind of a consequence of their actions, but it's not the real goal. Gaslighters. They lie with the intent of deceiving on a grand scale, and they tend to be very careful and get away with it because they can pull you into all kinds of, you know, unethical behavior that you don't actually see coming.

That's true.

That's true.

I wrote an article for Psyicoloto Day where I outlined the asshole circumplex where I looked. I showed the agency versus communion, and then on every single one of the eight I listed what type of asshole it was.

I wrote an article for Psyicoloto Day where I outlined the asshole circumplex where I looked. I showed the agency versus communion, and then on every single one of the eight I listed what type of asshole it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool, it's really nerdy, and I knew you would appreciate it because of that, So I'll send you that article. I mean, it's like scientific. I validated it and everything, so amazing. Yeah, so I think maybe you could slot some of your toxic people into into your asshole this. Yeah, the quadrants, that's exactly. I have like the quiet asshole, then I have the arrogant asshole, then I have like the manipulative asshole, you know, and like all sorts of.

Cool, it's really nerdy, and I knew you would appreciate it because of that, So I'll send you that article. I mean, it's like scientific. I validated it and everything, so amazing. Yeah, so I think maybe you could slot some of your toxic people into into your asshole this. Yeah, the quadrants, that's exactly. I have like the quiet asshole, then I have the arrogant asshole, then I have like the manipulative asshole, you know, and like all sorts of.

Things, all the nice shades of asshole.

Things, all the nice shades of asshole.

Exactly. That's exactly. That's exactly.

Exactly. That's exactly. That's exactly.

I see a new book title coming of new fiction book title. Okay, so what can you do at work if you really like, can you avoid them? Like there's a power dynamic there and that puts you in a really tough situation. It's like, what do you do if you feel like you can't say no to requests that are unethical?

I see a new book title coming of new fiction book title. Okay, so what can you do at work if you really like, can you avoid them? Like there's a power dynamic there and that puts you in a really tough situation. It's like, what do you do if you feel like you can't say no to requests that are unethical?

Yeah? I think you know, most people who are victims of gas lighters, their instinct is to be really inward and try to fight the battle alone. And that's part of what got them there, right, So gas leaders tend to cut you off socially. In fact, that's the biggest red flag that you're being targeted by one of these high status people is they're taking you out of important meetings. They're telling you no one respects your likes you, or the kind of more interesting and dangerous one is the one who makes you feel special. You're part of this special new thing and we can't tell anyone about it yet, so keep it secret. So that's the real battle that they're fighting. I think for them, they need to start networking with people who are at their level, and not to throw their gaslight or to the bus or to gossip about them, but to get a sense of how they're actually perceived by others at work to get some reputational information about what other people actually think of them. You know, So most of these people have no idea. They're living under some illusion that they're either people are afraid of them or you know, people think they're incompetent and they need to do some reality checking before they can do anything about the actual you know, gaslight or asshole boss that they're dealing with.

Yeah? I think you know, most people who are victims of gas lighters, their instinct is to be really inward and try to fight the battle alone. And that's part of what got them there, right, So gas leaders tend to cut you off socially. In fact, that's the biggest red flag that you're being targeted by one of these high status people is they're taking you out of important meetings. They're telling you no one respects your likes you, or the kind of more interesting and dangerous one is the one who makes you feel special. You're part of this special new thing and we can't tell anyone about it yet, so keep it secret. So that's the real battle that they're fighting. I think for them, they need to start networking with people who are at their level, and not to throw their gaslight or to the bus or to gossip about them, but to get a sense of how they're actually perceived by others at work to get some reputational information about what other people actually think of them. You know, So most of these people have no idea. They're living under some illusion that they're either people are afraid of them or you know, people think they're incompetent and they need to do some reality checking before they can do anything about the actual you know, gaslight or asshole boss that they're dealing with.

What category would you put Michael Scott in?

What category would you put Michael Scott in?

Oh, gosh, you know, he's interesting because he has flavors of all of the different types, including my favorite kind of new research topic, which is just awkwardness in inappropriateness in the workplace. But yeah, yeah, he definitely kind of does all these little things micromanagement, misperceiving status ques, all the things.

Oh, gosh, you know, he's interesting because he has flavors of all of the different types, including my favorite kind of new research topic, which is just awkwardness in inappropriateness in the workplace. But yeah, yeah, he definitely kind of does all these little things micromanagement, misperceiving status ques, all the things.

Well, it is awkwardness always the same thing as inappropriate. Like, I feel like there are a lot of people in the nerdivergent spectrum, myself included, who you know, maybe sometimes awkward, But does that always mean it's inappropriate? Like because someone else is uncomfortable with your with your different social style, is does that necessarily make it inappropriate in the workplace?

Well, it is awkwardness always the same thing as inappropriate. Like, I feel like there are a lot of people in the nerdivergent spectrum, myself included, who you know, maybe sometimes awkward, But does that always mean it's inappropriate? Like because someone else is uncomfortable with your with your different social style, is does that necessarily make it inappropriate in the workplace?

I love that question. I actually think we're starting to think about awkwardness more is something that people do with another person, less about kind of being a personality trait, like you are an awkward person, I'm an awkward person. But more awkwardness is a dance that we do together, and a lot of that comes out of uncertainty around how to handle certain social situations. So it takes two to be awkward, and it takes two to actually resolve that awkwardness in the moment. And often, you know, the reason why it doesn't get resolved is because neither party know exactly what to do. Should I make a joke, should I apologize? And so it's really kind of an interpersonal dynamic more than it is a trait that someone has.

I love that question. I actually think we're starting to think about awkwardness more is something that people do with another person, less about kind of being a personality trait, like you are an awkward person, I'm an awkward person. But more awkwardness is a dance that we do together, and a lot of that comes out of uncertainty around how to handle certain social situations. So it takes two to be awkward, and it takes two to actually resolve that awkwardness in the moment. And often, you know, the reason why it doesn't get resolved is because neither party know exactly what to do. Should I make a joke, should I apologize? And so it's really kind of an interpersonal dynamic more than it is a trait that someone has.

I love that.

I love that.

I mean, like, there's nothing better than when I'm around a fellow awkward person because then we can have fun. Like people who aren't awkward boring, you know, and so.

I mean, like, there's nothing better than when I'm around a fellow awkward person because then we can have fun. Like people who aren't awkward boring, you know, and so.

They're super boring. And I think awkwardness isn't something that is objective anyway, It's something that is subjectively perceived.

They're super boring. And I think awkwardness isn't something that is objective anyway, It's something that is subjectively perceived.

Yeah, love that I just kind of talked over you. Noow, I'm self conscious that I'm toxic cause I just talked over.

Yeah, love that I just kind of talked over you. Noow, I'm self conscious that I'm toxic cause I just talked over.

Talking over each other is actually signed their conversations going.

Talking over each other is actually signed their conversations going.

Well, oh good souch asn't always it's not always an indicator that the person's starting Okay, good who I'm not just thinking very self consciously now looking at your five list the micromanager. The problem with okay, this is a cool topic. I really like being too nice at work because I I I created this, like the scale pathological altruism scale that I call it now, I call it. Intrusive helping is the phrase I use in my do so do you do? You do you think does that link to some of that work that you've ran about, like intrusive helping or the excessive helping?

Well, oh good souch asn't always it's not always an indicator that the person's starting Okay, good who I'm not just thinking very self consciously now looking at your five list the micromanager. The problem with okay, this is a cool topic. I really like being too nice at work because I I I created this, like the scale pathological altruism scale that I call it now, I call it. Intrusive helping is the phrase I use in my do so do you do? You do you think does that link to some of that work that you've ran about, like intrusive helping or the excessive helping?

Excessive helping is kind of a form of micromanagement, I think. I think when I think about people who are too nice, I tend to think of and I'd be curious what you think about this feedback that is generic but nice. So the less specific it is, the less useful it is. Nice. Specific feedback is fine. But what we tend to do at work when we feel on comfortable is we smile through our gritted teeth and we say, you're doing so great here in an effort to kind of avoid being called toxic. And I think some of that kind of toxic altruism comes from this workplace culture of everybody is really nice here, we should insult people instead of teaching people how to give useful, critical feedback in a way that doesn't feel harmful. We're just layering on the niceties after niceties, and they're not actually improving or getting any better.

Excessive helping is kind of a form of micromanagement, I think. I think when I think about people who are too nice, I tend to think of and I'd be curious what you think about this feedback that is generic but nice. So the less specific it is, the less useful it is. Nice. Specific feedback is fine. But what we tend to do at work when we feel on comfortable is we smile through our gritted teeth and we say, you're doing so great here in an effort to kind of avoid being called toxic. And I think some of that kind of toxic altruism comes from this workplace culture of everybody is really nice here, we should insult people instead of teaching people how to give useful, critical feedback in a way that doesn't feel harmful. We're just layering on the niceties after niceties, and they're not actually improving or getting any better.

Do you nice guys really finish last?

Do you nice guys really finish last?

Not in my age group, Scott. When women are in their forties, we are happy with the nice guys. But in your twenties, I think, Baby, I think, yeah, nice guys finish first as you get older.

Not in my age group, Scott. When women are in their forties, we are happy with the nice guys. But in your twenties, I think, Baby, I think, yeah, nice guys finish first as you get older.

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about your new book. Okay, let's talk about your new book. Wow, it's really good.

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about your new book. Okay, let's talk about your new book. Wow, it's really good.

First of all, I feel like it should be on every organizational psychology's bookshelf psychologist's bookshelf as well as obviously people in general public as well. You talk about five common sources of career frustration in this book. I found each one really interesting. So if we could double click on each one, I think that would selfishly be really interesting to me. So identity crisis. Is this something that is age dependent or is there no expiration date? To when you can have an identity crisis.

First of all, I feel like it should be on every organizational psychology's bookshelf psychologist's bookshelf as well as obviously people in general public as well. You talk about five common sources of career frustration in this book. I found each one really interesting. So if we could double click on each one, I think that would selfishly be really interesting to me. So identity crisis. Is this something that is age dependent or is there no expiration date? To when you can have an identity crisis.

I don't think there's an expiration date for an identity crisis or any of these crises. I think, you know, I frame this chapter around people who have spent some time becoming good at something enough time where they have sunk their identity into that career, into that part of their job, and questioning it is existential, it's uncomfortable, and you know, there is a bit of a cost that goes along with people who've been working in one profession for a long time. But you could also have just spent some time training in that profession, getting a degree and then realizing it's not really for you, you know, or just spent a lot of kind of psychological investment in that, or even investing by moving or breaking up with someone, or you know, taking a pay cut. There's a lot of ways we can psychologically invest identity wise into a career that it then becomes costly. And I think years spent on the job, is it necessarily the only way that we can do that. There's lots of other ways.

I don't think there's an expiration date for an identity crisis or any of these crises. I think, you know, I frame this chapter around people who have spent some time becoming good at something enough time where they have sunk their identity into that career, into that part of their job, and questioning it is existential, it's uncomfortable, and you know, there is a bit of a cost that goes along with people who've been working in one profession for a long time. But you could also have just spent some time training in that profession, getting a degree and then realizing it's not really for you, you know, or just spent a lot of kind of psychological investment in that, or even investing by moving or breaking up with someone, or you know, taking a pay cut. There's a lot of ways we can psychologically invest identity wise into a career that it then becomes costly. And I think years spent on the job, is it necessarily the only way that we can do that. There's lots of other ways.

Wow, Well, what first of all, don't panic, right if it's happening to you, Like, what's some advice like let's someone's listening this episode right now and they really are having this identity crisis and they feel like they should and maybe they're feeling even shame. I feel like all year five, there's I could see a case where you have a meta cognition where you have shame over having the thing. Yep, you know I was thinking about that.

Wow, Well, what first of all, don't panic, right if it's happening to you, Like, what's some advice like let's someone's listening this episode right now and they really are having this identity crisis and they feel like they should and maybe they're feeling even shame. I feel like all year five, there's I could see a case where you have a meta cognition where you have shame over having the thing. Yep, you know I was thinking about that.

Yeah, I think, you know. The first step for identity crisis, and really for all of them, but really for this one is to first just do a little bit of a self assessment, like how bad is it really and on what component are you really suffering from that identity lass? Are you, you know, de identified entirely with this thing? Are you just not satisfied with this particular workplace that you're having, And then I think you want to ask yourself a couple questions of how upset would I be if I could never do this thing again, had to let this goal go? You know I've done. I surveyed a lot of people for this book, and you know what I found is a lot of people are still highly identified with careers that don't make them happy. We see this in healthcare a lot where there's a lot of burnout and that's just a really rough psychological place to be in. It's very depressing to feel highly committed to something that makes you miserable. But I think anyone who's ever been in a relationship or a crappy marriage knows what it's like to commit to something that you hate, you know, that makes you unhappy. And so think about this through the Yeah, well I'm on my second marriage, so I definitely went through that first stage. You know, I think this husband is in the room and he's giving me. He's giving me major side eye right now. He's also quoted in the Identity Crisis, I interviewed Dave. I'm be able for that. He's the identity expert. But you know, we talk a lot about hating something that you that is still a part of you, and I think a lot of people can identify with that rough psychological.

Yeah, I think, you know. The first step for identity crisis, and really for all of them, but really for this one is to first just do a little bit of a self assessment, like how bad is it really and on what component are you really suffering from that identity lass? Are you, you know, de identified entirely with this thing? Are you just not satisfied with this particular workplace that you're having, And then I think you want to ask yourself a couple questions of how upset would I be if I could never do this thing again, had to let this goal go? You know I've done. I surveyed a lot of people for this book, and you know what I found is a lot of people are still highly identified with careers that don't make them happy. We see this in healthcare a lot where there's a lot of burnout and that's just a really rough psychological place to be in. It's very depressing to feel highly committed to something that makes you miserable. But I think anyone who's ever been in a relationship or a crappy marriage knows what it's like to commit to something that you hate, you know, that makes you unhappy. And so think about this through the Yeah, well I'm on my second marriage, so I definitely went through that first stage. You know, I think this husband is in the room and he's giving me. He's giving me major side eye right now. He's also quoted in the Identity Crisis, I interviewed Dave. I'm be able for that. He's the identity expert. But you know, we talk a lot about hating something that you that is still a part of you, and I think a lot of people can identify with that rough psychological.

Experien Well, usually if I hate something about myself, I don't identify it with it.

Experien Well, usually if I hate something about myself, I don't identify it with it.

You know what I'm saying.

You know what I'm saying.

You know what I'm saying.

You know what I'm saying.

That money, right, it's paying you a lot of money. Or you spent fifteen years into to learn how to remove this one thing out of the gall bladder, and that's all you're good at but you no longer want to operate on the gall bladder. Then that's that's going to lead to some kind of identity crisis, right, especially if you're really good at it and other people are relying on you to be that expert. You know, you're the only brain surgeon in town. You're the only dentist who can really do a good root canal. You know, leaving it, you're going to let a lot of people down. And I think that's that's something that a lot of people suffer with IM just thinking about all my life choices don't don't get to existent.

That money, right, it's paying you a lot of money. Or you spent fifteen years into to learn how to remove this one thing out of the gall bladder, and that's all you're good at but you no longer want to operate on the gall bladder. Then that's that's going to lead to some kind of identity crisis, right, especially if you're really good at it and other people are relying on you to be that expert. You know, you're the only brain surgeon in town. You're the only dentist who can really do a good root canal. You know, leaving it, you're going to let a lot of people down. And I think that's that's something that a lot of people suffer with IM just thinking about all my life choices don't don't get to existent.

Let's move to the next one. So drifted apart? Woll?

Let's move to the next one. So drifted apart? Woll?

I mean, look, I see a correlation between some of these. It's not like they're complete orthogonal. They're not in the factor analysis, you know what I'm saying.

I mean, look, I see a correlation between some of these. It's not like they're complete orthogonal. They're not in the factor analysis, you know what I'm saying.

You know what I'm like factor analysis humor. Okay, So you know.

You know what I'm like factor analysis humor. Okay, So you know.

It's gonna make a very Max's rotation. That would be lost.

It's gonna make a very Max's rotation. That would be lost.

I was gonna say these all god of team players on the principal component analysis.

I was gonna say these all god of team players on the principal component analysis.

Okay, our audience, it's completely lost.

Okay, our audience, it's completely lost.

No I can value jokes. Okay, So do you drifting apart? You know, do you do you recognize this as part of yourself anymore? And I and obviously that's right to the identity crisis one, but it does, you know, partially separate, like what is that?

No I can value jokes. Okay, So do you drifting apart? You know, do you do you recognize this as part of yourself anymore? And I and obviously that's right to the identity crisis one, but it does, you know, partially separate, like what is that?

What does that feel like?

What does that feel like?

First of all, it feels like I used to love this thing in front of me and I don't really recognize it anymore. And it's not that I don't want this career, you know, and I will I have to tell you slip into relationship language a lot when I talk about stuff. So you look at the person sitting next to you in bed, and who are you? You know? You used to be this fun, engaging, interesting person, and I don't you're frank to yourself or yourself or or I'm looking at him? Who are you? Who is this man who tweeting all the time? I don't record know he was always that person, you know. And it's not that you want a new career, you want the old thing back. And I think the problem is knowing whether that old thing exists in another place, and whether the changes you've experienced are due to kind of structural, top down, hard to see, hard to control things about the organization or the field or the economy or whatever. Or something kind of more local about your team or your boss. So knowing the level of change is important for these folks.

First of all, it feels like I used to love this thing in front of me and I don't really recognize it anymore. And it's not that I don't want this career, you know, and I will I have to tell you slip into relationship language a lot when I talk about stuff. So you look at the person sitting next to you in bed, and who are you? You know? You used to be this fun, engaging, interesting person, and I don't you're frank to yourself or yourself or or I'm looking at him? Who are you? Who is this man who tweeting all the time? I don't record know he was always that person, you know. And it's not that you want a new career, you want the old thing back. And I think the problem is knowing whether that old thing exists in another place, and whether the changes you've experienced are due to kind of structural, top down, hard to see, hard to control things about the organization or the field or the economy or whatever. Or something kind of more local about your team or your boss. So knowing the level of change is important for these folks.

Yeah, I mean that drifting apart is that can be so tough. You're drifting apart from yourself. We just don't talk about that enough. I mean I do because I love Carl Rogers and I love the idea of self connection and the idea of existential loneliness that they were the Humanistic Psychologist wrote about. Yeah, but I'm not everyone, you know, most you know, I think that this idea needs to be talked about more, especially in the workplace, you know, and people shouldn't be ashamed for you know, there are people who go forty years, right, and it's like I almost you'd almost expect after forty years you'd get like word with something aspect of you know something.

Yeah, I mean that drifting apart is that can be so tough. You're drifting apart from yourself. We just don't talk about that enough. I mean I do because I love Carl Rogers and I love the idea of self connection and the idea of existential loneliness that they were the Humanistic Psychologist wrote about. Yeah, but I'm not everyone, you know, most you know, I think that this idea needs to be talked about more, especially in the workplace, you know, and people shouldn't be ashamed for you know, there are people who go forty years, right, and it's like I almost you'd almost expect after forty years you'd get like word with something aspect of you know something.

Yeah, all of a sudden you wake up and it doesn't do it for you anymore, and you look in the mirror and you're like, who am I? Who is this job? Which one has changed? Is it me? Or is it the career? And so a lot of their soul searching is figuring out how much of it is them, you know, And that's a tough conversation to have with yourself how.

Yeah, all of a sudden you wake up and it doesn't do it for you anymore, and you look in the mirror and you're like, who am I? Who is this job? Which one has changed? Is it me? Or is it the career? And so a lot of their soul searching is figuring out how much of it is them, you know, And that's a tough conversation to have with yourself how.

Much work have you done in the field of job crafting, because they often say in the organizational psychology literature that if that happens, then you should job craft yourself out of it.

Much work have you done in the field of job crafting, because they often say in the organizational psychology literature that if that happens, then you should job craft yourself out of it.

What do you mean by job I love jargon, and I love making people explain jargon.

What do you mean by job I love jargon, and I love making people explain jargon.

Well, changing the role in a way that matches who the new you. You know, like if you're a teacher. Let's say you're a teacher, but you're really feeling like you want to be an actor, you know, you reframe your job as like, I'm not a teacher anymore. I'm like going to be like, you know, performing for my students.

Well, changing the role in a way that matches who the new you. You know, like if you're a teacher. Let's say you're a teacher, but you're really feeling like you want to be an actor, you know, you reframe your job as like, I'm not a teacher anymore. I'm like going to be like, you know, performing for my students.

I'm a performer of knowledge. Yeah, I mean there's some kind of mental gymnastics you can do. But I think you want to be honest with yourself about whether you've now fallen into what I call passion roles, which are just things you love to do, but no one's going to give you a RaSE for that. You know, you can become the teacher who also runs the drama club, but that's probably just some extra side gigage that you're not getting paid for, So be careful of that kind of slippery state of job crafting yourself into roles that people don't respect as much as you think they ought to. I tend to be very cynical about all these kinds of things if people will still pay you the same grade.

I'm a performer of knowledge. Yeah, I mean there's some kind of mental gymnastics you can do. But I think you want to be honest with yourself about whether you've now fallen into what I call passion roles, which are just things you love to do, but no one's going to give you a RaSE for that. You know, you can become the teacher who also runs the drama club, but that's probably just some extra side gigage that you're not getting paid for, So be careful of that kind of slippery state of job crafting yourself into roles that people don't respect as much as you think they ought to. I tend to be very cynical about all these kinds of things if people will still pay you the same grade.

Okay, good?

Okay, good?

Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, you shouldn't always care what other people think, right, And sometimes it takes some big risks, you know, to comsplutely change professions. Yeah, h torn in between places?

Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, you shouldn't always care what other people think, right, And sometimes it takes some big risks, you know, to comsplutely change professions. Yeah, h torn in between places?

Are you taking on too many roles at work?

Are you taking on too many roles at work?

Switching tests or stuck between What does it mean to be like stuck between two paths at work?

Switching tests or stuck between What does it mean to be like stuck between two paths at work?

Yeah? So I think when I think of someone who's torn between places, there's like two things. There's I'm taking on way too many roles like official job titles, and my research has shown that like the average person has like ten, you know, and a lot of these they're doing for visibility purposes because they think they will get a raise and they don't actually to raise for it. But then there's this the daily low level task switching problem that we all suffer from, where we don't know how to organize our work into like the right kind of spheres, or we're being you know, phone calls or text messages from the boss pulling us away from our work, which is different than the kind of structural role based problem. And I think people probably suffer a little bit from both, but they're very different kinds of problems with different solutions.

Yeah? So I think when I think of someone who's torn between places, there's like two things. There's I'm taking on way too many roles like official job titles, and my research has shown that like the average person has like ten, you know, and a lot of these they're doing for visibility purposes because they think they will get a raise and they don't actually to raise for it. But then there's this the daily low level task switching problem that we all suffer from, where we don't know how to organize our work into like the right kind of spheres, or we're being you know, phone calls or text messages from the boss pulling us away from our work, which is different than the kind of structural role based problem. And I think people probably suffer a little bit from both, but they're very different kinds of problems with different solutions.

Attached to them.

Attached to them.

Can you elaborate what are the different solutions attached to them?

Can you elaborate what are the different solutions attached to them?

For sure? I think you know for the first one. Taking on these roles, there's often this mismatch between what people in power who give you raises and promotions think you ought to be doing and the roles that you take on because a colleague or a collaborator tells you they're a good idea, And I think you really want to kind of square that circle, close that communication gap when you're hired, when you're actually interviewing and talk about those different roles. There's a lot of slippage going on at work and a lot of increase in high Yeah, sounds really gross when I say it that way. Goolipage. There's a lot of roles with fancy titles, you know, cheap Happiness officer and things like that, a lot of c suite titles, lots of kind of Yeah, that is a dying role sorry, CDOs, you know that are in the moment that people are taking on that don't maybe have the prestige or their career growth that they think that they should have, and they're lured into taking these things, so they need to have real conversations like is that actually are those roles worth it? Also, stop the volunteer work, folks. My research shows that people spend about twelve hours a week doing volunteer work that they are not getting paid to do at work. And this isn't like fun volunteering on the side. These are roles that someone else is probably getting paid to do that you're now volunteering and stepping in. And I think that is a little bit of a disease we all have in the workplace right now, this business of volunteering for other people's jobs in an effort to get visibility for it.

For sure? I think you know for the first one. Taking on these roles, there's often this mismatch between what people in power who give you raises and promotions think you ought to be doing and the roles that you take on because a colleague or a collaborator tells you they're a good idea, And I think you really want to kind of square that circle, close that communication gap when you're hired, when you're actually interviewing and talk about those different roles. There's a lot of slippage going on at work and a lot of increase in high Yeah, sounds really gross when I say it that way. Goolipage. There's a lot of roles with fancy titles, you know, cheap Happiness officer and things like that, a lot of c suite titles, lots of kind of Yeah, that is a dying role sorry, CDOs, you know that are in the moment that people are taking on that don't maybe have the prestige or their career growth that they think that they should have, and they're lured into taking these things, so they need to have real conversations like is that actually are those roles worth it? Also, stop the volunteer work, folks. My research shows that people spend about twelve hours a week doing volunteer work that they are not getting paid to do at work. And this isn't like fun volunteering on the side. These are roles that someone else is probably getting paid to do that you're now volunteering and stepping in. And I think that is a little bit of a disease we all have in the workplace right now, this business of volunteering for other people's jobs in an effort to get visibility for it.

Is that maybe like, is that related being too nice?

Is that maybe like, is that related being too nice?

It is? Everything's related. It's got to being too nice if we're all just bigger assholes.

It is? Everything's related. It's got to being too nice if we're all just bigger assholes.

Now wait, but there's truth to that. In my opening New Year and New episode, remember Michael, I said my New Year's resolution this year is too over my agreeableness levels thirty You do I think I'm doing a pretty good job this way.

Now wait, but there's truth to that. In my opening New Year and New episode, remember Michael, I said my New Year's resolution this year is too over my agreeableness levels thirty You do I think I'm doing a pretty good job this way.

When you're too agreeable, you over promise all kinds of totally it actually ends up biting you in the.

When you're too agreeable, you over promise all kinds of totally it actually ends up biting you in the.

Ass was too high, it was too something had to change, you know. So how about the under oh no, let's go to runner up?

Ass was too high, it was too something had to change, you know. So how about the under oh no, let's go to runner up?

Runner up?

Runner up?

Do you always feel like you keep coming in second?

Do you always feel like you keep coming in second?

Wow? That one hit, right, ship, that one hit, that one hit Okay, So that's it. That's the thing the kids say these days.

Wow? That one hit, right, ship, that one hit, that one hit Okay, So that's it. That's the thing the kids say these days.

They hit hit Yeah, that was emotional things hit yeah.

They hit hit Yeah, that was emotional things hit yeah.

Wow, personally resonant. Okay. So what do you do if you feel that way at work? What can you do? I mean, you can't like force your way to number one.

Wow, personally resonant. Okay. So what do you do if you feel that way at work? What can you do? I mean, you can't like force your way to number one.

You can't, but you probably peace with it, you know. So. So I surveyed hires and promoters and then also runner ups for that chapter, and there are these huge kind of gaps between them, and one of the big reasons why people fall into the runner up category is because they missed a role like two roles ago that they ought to have taken. And a lot of them are what are they get what's called battlefield promotion in the moment when there's a crisis at work, they were promoted to a position that they probably weren't quite ready for and it was super flattering and they took it, and then they can't climb up from that role, in part because they haven't filled in the sort of back roles that they needed to even get to that spot. And so they think, because I have the role, now I need to get promoted to the next role. They're qualified, but everyone looking at their resume is going there's a bunch of gaps. There's a bunch of things they needed to do about four steps ago that no one told them was necessary because they wanted them for this battlefield promotion. That is, that's kind of a terrifying thought, because now should I go back in time and fill in those roles or what exactly should I do to kind of fix that? That's the tough conversation.

You can't, but you probably peace with it, you know. So. So I surveyed hires and promoters and then also runner ups for that chapter, and there are these huge kind of gaps between them, and one of the big reasons why people fall into the runner up category is because they missed a role like two roles ago that they ought to have taken. And a lot of them are what are they get what's called battlefield promotion in the moment when there's a crisis at work, they were promoted to a position that they probably weren't quite ready for and it was super flattering and they took it, and then they can't climb up from that role, in part because they haven't filled in the sort of back roles that they needed to even get to that spot. And so they think, because I have the role, now I need to get promoted to the next role. They're qualified, but everyone looking at their resume is going there's a bunch of gaps. There's a bunch of things they needed to do about four steps ago that no one told them was necessary because they wanted them for this battlefield promotion. That is, that's kind of a terrifying thought, because now should I go back in time and fill in those roles or what exactly should I do to kind of fix that? That's the tough conversation.

Definitely, Well, this seems very related to the next one, the underappreciated star. I mean, sometimes you keep coming in a second, but you know that you're the best, right, you know, and like, what do you do if you're like, what do you do if you're you are crushing it and no one's noticing?

Definitely, Well, this seems very related to the next one, the underappreciated star. I mean, sometimes you keep coming in a second, but you know that you're the best, right, you know, and like, what do you do if you're like, what do you do if you're you are crushing it and no one's noticing?

Yeah, now you know this is diagnosing yourself as an underappreciated star is really tough, and I have a pretty high bar of like, are you actually a star? No? Really, no, really, you know, these folks tend to know that they're stars and they're under appreciated, and they're not just runner ups. Because there's a lot of carrot dangling. There's a lot of people are dangling a carrot in front of them, going carrot dangling.

Yeah, now you know this is diagnosing yourself as an underappreciated star is really tough, and I have a pretty high bar of like, are you actually a star? No? Really, no, really, you know, these folks tend to know that they're stars and they're under appreciated, and they're not just runner ups. Because there's a lot of carrot dangling. There's a lot of people are dangling a carrot in front of them, going carrot dangling.

Or dangling Karen dad dangling.

Or dangling Karen dad dangling.

I'm a California and I have a weird non you know, regional dialect accent. Yeah. So they often work for companies that say, once we get the next amount of investment, we'll be able to promote you, or will be able to give you that you know, share of whatever, or will be able to hire the staff that you need. So a lot of these folks are actually working for startup companies. You know, they want to do something new and exciting, and then they're kind of handed five hundred different things and it never actually comes to fruition, and so they sort of realize, I'm a star here, but I'm underappreciated in the sense that they can never compensate me exactly for what I want. Or they work in an industry where you know, there's just so few resources at the top that there's a whole bunch of undappreciated stars kind of at the middle level, and only one or two can never actually climb up. Oh boy, that yeah, I mean, I think we all know what it feels like to see a colleague get raised, get a raise of promotion because they got an offer elsewhere.

I'm a California and I have a weird non you know, regional dialect accent. Yeah. So they often work for companies that say, once we get the next amount of investment, we'll be able to promote you, or will be able to give you that you know, share of whatever, or will be able to hire the staff that you need. So a lot of these folks are actually working for startup companies. You know, they want to do something new and exciting, and then they're kind of handed five hundred different things and it never actually comes to fruition, and so they sort of realize, I'm a star here, but I'm underappreciated in the sense that they can never compensate me exactly for what I want. Or they work in an industry where you know, there's just so few resources at the top that there's a whole bunch of undappreciated stars kind of at the middle level, and only one or two can never actually climb up. Oh boy, that yeah, I mean, I think we all know what it feels like to see a colleague get raised, get a raise of promotion because they got an offer elsewhere.

And well, what if they get a razor promotion because they steal all your work?

And well, what if they get a razor promotion because they steal all your work?

Then they need to go back to my first book and read the chapter on the credit stealer. You know, I wrote these so that they could talk to each other.

Then they need to go back to my first book and read the chapter on the credit stealer. You know, I wrote these so that they could talk to each other.

They really are in tandem, and they are they are yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's true because you raised a point like you're wary of people's self diagnosing as the under pursuing star, because that isn't a type of toxic person who constantly feels underappreciated. That's vulnerable narcissism, you know. So how do you know if you're a vulnerable narcissist or you actually are being underappreciated.

They really are in tandem, and they are they are yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's true because you raised a point like you're wary of people's self diagnosing as the under pursuing star, because that isn't a type of toxic person who constantly feels underappreciated. That's vulnerable narcissism, you know. So how do you know if you're a vulnerable narcissist or you actually are being underappreciated.

Yeah, I really think the only way to do that is to actually put yourself out there and find out who the relevant social comparison. Other is, we often pick the wrong people. We pick the person who's in the office next to us who seems to get more than we do, but we don't actually know who's in the real pool of talent we're being compared to. So you want, you know, a lesson in humility and a reality check about your starhood. Put yourself out there, network with people who hire in your field, show them your resume, and find out who those others actually are that you're being compared to. And most of us are pretty off base. I mean, I know my grad students compare themselves to others in our program, not to the thirty other people who are going to be applying for jobs at the same time as then, because they don't even know those folks exist. Layer onto that the complexity that there is no static pool in the job market. It's iterative. It's constantly changing, and even hirers don't know who's in it all the time. It's like, you know, a slime mold that goes in weird directions. So it is very difficult to know whether you're a star relative to the right people. But that should be a question you should be asking yourself.

Yeah, I really think the only way to do that is to actually put yourself out there and find out who the relevant social comparison. Other is, we often pick the wrong people. We pick the person who's in the office next to us who seems to get more than we do, but we don't actually know who's in the real pool of talent we're being compared to. So you want, you know, a lesson in humility and a reality check about your starhood. Put yourself out there, network with people who hire in your field, show them your resume, and find out who those others actually are that you're being compared to. And most of us are pretty off base. I mean, I know my grad students compare themselves to others in our program, not to the thirty other people who are going to be applying for jobs at the same time as then, because they don't even know those folks exist. Layer onto that the complexity that there is no static pool in the job market. It's iterative. It's constantly changing, and even hirers don't know who's in it all the time. It's like, you know, a slime mold that goes in weird directions. So it is very difficult to know whether you're a star relative to the right people. But that should be a question you should be asking yourself.

That's a little self reflection doesn't hurt.

That's a little self reflection doesn't hurt.

It's hard though people don't like you know, Okay, am I really a star? Let me compare myself to people who hold my roles at the top organizations. You know, what do they look like on paper? Do? I? Am I really as good as those people?

It's hard though people don't like you know, Okay, am I really a star? Let me compare myself to people who hold my roles at the top organizations. You know, what do they look like on paper? Do? I? Am I really as good as those people?

It's a really good point. It's a really good point.

It's a really good point. It's a really good point.

Yeah, Okay, Well, you talk about a lot of situations where people really want to change their jobs, They want to get out of there, but they want to find something that's more in line with their values. And I actually see your research as fitting within a larger umbrella of research called meaningful work, which I is really hot right now. And as you know obviously, but I consider as I was reading your book, I was like, this fits nicely with that gene dot ins and all that. So what's your own spit on this? How people really can find things they're more in line with their values? And how do you know when it's time to quit and time to grit?

Yeah, Okay, Well, you talk about a lot of situations where people really want to change their jobs, They want to get out of there, but they want to find something that's more in line with their values. And I actually see your research as fitting within a larger umbrella of research called meaningful work, which I is really hot right now. And as you know obviously, but I consider as I was reading your book, I was like, this fits nicely with that gene dot ins and all that. So what's your own spit on this? How people really can find things they're more in line with their values? And how do you know when it's time to quit and time to grit?

Whndy grit? And when do you quit?

Whndy grit? And when do you quit?

Yeah? The question right, I think you have to stop thinking about your job is something that happens to you, and stop using this passive language when you talk about the work place like my boss did this to me, or this happened to me, and think about it like you would any other relationship. And you know, the first step before you leave anyone or before you make any big moves is to dive into the psychological underpinnings of your own happiness. So stop making lists about sort of do I want to work from home, what city do I want to be in, what kind of money do I want to make, and really try to understand the psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable here. I also think you need to dive into what makes you stressed out at work. And in this book, I have this daily stress test where I have people think about what are they anticipating stressing them out, and then at the end of the day write down what actually stresses them out. Most of the time, what we anticipate is not the thing that stressed us out at the end of the day, because we're good at planning for those things. It's the unanticipated stressors that actually eat away at our psychological wellbeing and our physical health. So if you collect a little bit of data on yourself, you're going to know what's actually triggering your stress responses and harming your sleep and making you yell at people at home. You know, you need to collect that data to understand why, and then think about your career as you want any other type of relationship where you have to ask these tough questions. I think in terms of when is it okay to stay? When is it okay to go? You need to collect some data on your ups and downs before you make that decision. And most of us, our memories are pretty bad when it comes to what makes us happy at work and for how long are we happy? We need to collect that data daily, as if we were in any other kind of relationship. Intermittent reinforcement that can really keep you kind of anchored to something, being embedded in the workplace, having an easy commute, you know, friends at work. Those things keep you embedded. So you've got to pull apart all of those things before you make the decision, and don't just make it about listing what you want and what you don't have, and you know, and get over the grass is greener thing. Grass is never greener. Grass is usually grass. You know, it's the dimensions on which you need to learn that you want to satisfice on that a lot of people don't do the soul searching on on Instagram.

Yeah? The question right, I think you have to stop thinking about your job is something that happens to you, and stop using this passive language when you talk about the work place like my boss did this to me, or this happened to me, and think about it like you would any other relationship. And you know, the first step before you leave anyone or before you make any big moves is to dive into the psychological underpinnings of your own happiness. So stop making lists about sort of do I want to work from home, what city do I want to be in, what kind of money do I want to make, and really try to understand the psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable here. I also think you need to dive into what makes you stressed out at work. And in this book, I have this daily stress test where I have people think about what are they anticipating stressing them out, and then at the end of the day write down what actually stresses them out. Most of the time, what we anticipate is not the thing that stressed us out at the end of the day, because we're good at planning for those things. It's the unanticipated stressors that actually eat away at our psychological wellbeing and our physical health. So if you collect a little bit of data on yourself, you're going to know what's actually triggering your stress responses and harming your sleep and making you yell at people at home. You know, you need to collect that data to understand why, and then think about your career as you want any other type of relationship where you have to ask these tough questions. I think in terms of when is it okay to stay? When is it okay to go? You need to collect some data on your ups and downs before you make that decision. And most of us, our memories are pretty bad when it comes to what makes us happy at work and for how long are we happy? We need to collect that data daily, as if we were in any other kind of relationship. Intermittent reinforcement that can really keep you kind of anchored to something, being embedded in the workplace, having an easy commute, you know, friends at work. Those things keep you embedded. So you've got to pull apart all of those things before you make the decision, and don't just make it about listing what you want and what you don't have, and you know, and get over the grass is greener thing. Grass is never greener. Grass is usually grass. You know, it's the dimensions on which you need to learn that you want to satisfice on that a lot of people don't do the soul searching on on Instagram.

I keep seeing the same thing over and over again, which is supposed to make people feel better, but it actually does make me feel better. It says a lot of people want what other people have, but they're not willing to do what it takes to be that person, or they wouldn't even like it, you know, the rest of the person's life they had it, you know, something like that. And I think there's there's a really large grain of truth to that.

I keep seeing the same thing over and over again, which is supposed to make people feel better, but it actually does make me feel better. It says a lot of people want what other people have, but they're not willing to do what it takes to be that person, or they wouldn't even like it, you know, the rest of the person's life they had it, you know, something like that. And I think there's there's a really large grain of truth to that.

Yeah. I mean I looked at people who are promoted and people who just narrowly missed a promotion, and I ask those that second group, you know, what does this other group have that you want? And I ask the same of that group, and they always think their lives are much better than they actually are after promotion. They even think they're getting more work life balance and more free time after a promotion, which is crazy to me. But I think people think they're just going to get more of all the good things after they get the new job, after they get the promotion, and they're not actually asking themselves, what am I willing to give up? Should I take on this role? And what are the ways in which I would fail at this new role? And do I have what it takes to make sure that doesn't happen. Those are questions you should be asking in the interview stage as well. But this loss frame is really important. What are you willing to give up if you change careers or if you're to go for this new company? You know, if you want me to take on this new role that means saying no to my coworkers. How am I going to protect myself from the social repercussions of that, the status loss of that? Would I now have to say no to people who are used to hearing yes from me. Walk through those kind of lost frame questions before you think that it's just going to be much better to have that higher status role or that new job in that new organization.

Yeah. I mean I looked at people who are promoted and people who just narrowly missed a promotion, and I ask those that second group, you know, what does this other group have that you want? And I ask the same of that group, and they always think their lives are much better than they actually are after promotion. They even think they're getting more work life balance and more free time after a promotion, which is crazy to me. But I think people think they're just going to get more of all the good things after they get the new job, after they get the promotion, and they're not actually asking themselves, what am I willing to give up? Should I take on this role? And what are the ways in which I would fail at this new role? And do I have what it takes to make sure that doesn't happen. Those are questions you should be asking in the interview stage as well. But this loss frame is really important. What are you willing to give up if you change careers or if you're to go for this new company? You know, if you want me to take on this new role that means saying no to my coworkers. How am I going to protect myself from the social repercussions of that, the status loss of that? Would I now have to say no to people who are used to hearing yes from me. Walk through those kind of lost frame questions before you think that it's just going to be much better to have that higher status role or that new job in that new organization.

It feels like no matter what your fantasy, your dream is like, if you get it in reality, you're it's never quite like you imagined it, you know. Like I keep thinking of like all these famous people, like who they dis like. I'm trying to think of some examples. What's the guy from a well.

It feels like no matter what your fantasy, your dream is like, if you get it in reality, you're it's never quite like you imagined it, you know. Like I keep thinking of like all these famous people, like who they dis like. I'm trying to think of some examples. What's the guy from a well.

Al write it?

Al write it?

Then?

Then?

What's his name?

What's his name?

Oh god, Jim Carrey carry Jim Carrey.

Oh god, Jim Carrey carry Jim Carrey.

You know, I saw an interview with him. He's like, wow, fame is totally not Yeah, yeah, it's not where it's at now. He's trying so hard to deprogram and.

You know, I saw an interview with him. He's like, wow, fame is totally not Yeah, yeah, it's not where it's at now. He's trying so hard to deprogram and.

To just be an exist He became an artist, right.

To just be an exist He became an artist, right.

I don't know what he's he's he's no self now. Apparently he's like I saw an interview. He's like, I am nothing now, I am nothing. I am not Jim Carrey, and I do not identify with Jim Carros.

I don't know what he's he's he's no self now. Apparently he's like I saw an interview. He's like, I am nothing now, I am nothing. I am not Jim Carrey, and I do not identify with Jim Carros.

It's very existential.

It's very existential.

So anyway, I think there's a deep truth there. It just doesn't.

So anyway, I think there's a deep truth there. It just doesn't.

It's it's never quite what it seems. And then and then like the day after you get it, like it doesn't. It's like okay, now what you know. It's like you're still living, just moving on.

It's it's never quite what it seems. And then and then like the day after you get it, like it doesn't. It's like okay, now what you know. It's like you're still living, just moving on.

You have to eat lunch and get coffee. We also think we're all going to get better over time, and we pretty much just stay the same. We just get different, you know, we don't become more moral or more interesting hotter, No, because you break up, we don't get I also, but I think it's just my makeup game is improving. It's like you make my makeup is not improving. Your hair is good though whatever your I got a haircut todays just today slid. Some of us, like you do, get hotter over time, but most of us do the same or get worse.

You have to eat lunch and get coffee. We also think we're all going to get better over time, and we pretty much just stay the same. We just get different, you know, we don't become more moral or more interesting hotter, No, because you break up, we don't get I also, but I think it's just my makeup game is improving. It's like you make my makeup is not improving. Your hair is good though whatever your I got a haircut todays just today slid. Some of us, like you do, get hotter over time, but most of us do the same or get worse.

I feel you, you know, well, but okay, not just not just that demean of life, but just like it just feels like, I mean, don't people grow more? Like you said morally for instance, And that just shocked me that you, like you had a very cynical view of that. You're like, You're like, yeah, most people don't grow more, they stay the same.

I feel you, you know, well, but okay, not just not just that demean of life, but just like it just feels like, I mean, don't people grow more? Like you said morally for instance, And that just shocked me that you, like you had a very cynical view of that. You're like, You're like, yeah, most people don't grow more, they stay the same.

Is that true? Like, I mean, I would think of my own self. I think, like I cringe when.

Is that true? Like, I mean, I would think of my own self. I think, like I cringe when.

I think of some of the things, you know, things the way I treat the things I've said when I was nineteen years old, you know, like I hope I.

I think of some of the things, you know, things the way I treat the things I've said when I was nineteen years old, you know, like I hope I.

Because the downwards social past self comparisons are salient, right, It's easier for us to think of all the ways in which we've gotten better. It's hard for us to think of all the ways in which we've gotten worse. And I actually think when it comes to job change, think about parallel changes you work. You know, I used to have X and now I want why or I used to be x and now I want to be hy. People will just be super aspirational in ways that are actually pretty tough to live up to those standards.

Because the downwards social past self comparisons are salient, right, It's easier for us to think of all the ways in which we've gotten better. It's hard for us to think of all the ways in which we've gotten worse. And I actually think when it comes to job change, think about parallel changes you work. You know, I used to have X and now I want why or I used to be x and now I want to be hy. People will just be super aspirational in ways that are actually pretty tough to live up to those standards.

Oh that's interesting.

Oh that's interesting.

You know, I think our day to day lives pretty much stay the same. You get up, you have coffee, you write your tweet, you go to work. At no point in there are you thinking to yourself, I'm just going to completely change all my moral foundations. You know, we're not that deep at the end of the day, and I think we just go about our lives and we're pretty consistent. We're much more consistent over time than I think we think we are in terms of what irritates us, what makes us happy, what tastes good, what tastes bad. You know, how motivated we are to exercise, It takes a lot to really disrupt that flow and to make us completely different people.

You know, I think our day to day lives pretty much stay the same. You get up, you have coffee, you write your tweet, you go to work. At no point in there are you thinking to yourself, I'm just going to completely change all my moral foundations. You know, we're not that deep at the end of the day, and I think we just go about our lives and we're pretty consistent. We're much more consistent over time than I think we think we are in terms of what irritates us, what makes us happy, what tastes good, what tastes bad. You know, how motivated we are to exercise, It takes a lot to really disrupt that flow and to make us completely different people.

Is that why we really gravitate towards these aberrant people that they get so famous and yeah for their like yeah for.

Is that why we really gravitate towards these aberrant people that they get so famous and yeah for their like yeah for.

Their ice baths or you know, in Silicon Valley we used to call them weekend warriors. You know, they would go all in on these crazy things. I think they're fascinating to watch because most of us could never actually do that, or we try it for five minutes and say, yeah, there's a reason why I don't, you know, have an ice tub in my backyard. It's actually quite uncomfortable and painful.

Their ice baths or you know, in Silicon Valley we used to call them weekend warriors. You know, they would go all in on these crazy things. I think they're fascinating to watch because most of us could never actually do that, or we try it for five minutes and say, yeah, there's a reason why I don't, you know, have an ice tub in my backyard. It's actually quite uncomfortable and painful.

Also change his heart.

Also change his heart.

But there is an idea that those people are better humans.

But there is an idea that those people are better humans.

They're not better humans.

They're not better humans.

I don't think they are, but there's this, there is this that's how we treat them on Instagram right where we treat these examples of people who like extremely focus on changing their bodies, you know, as like the paragon. You know, I would almost go so far to dare I use the phrase bro culture. Yeah, it's like I feel like there is a culture on Instagram of like treating that.

I don't think they are, but there's this, there is this that's how we treat them on Instagram right where we treat these examples of people who like extremely focus on changing their bodies, you know, as like the paragon. You know, I would almost go so far to dare I use the phrase bro culture. Yeah, it's like I feel like there is a culture on Instagram of like treating that.

And that's not moral development. That's you wake up at five am.

And that's not moral development. That's you wake up at five am.

Yeah yeah, that's and you're you think you're better than everyone else because you woke up at five and all the suckers are still sleeping.

Yeah yeah, that's and you're you think you're better than everyone else because you woke up at five and all the suckers are still sleeping.

It's the new status dimension. Actually, so I study sartorial cues of status, so the clothes we wear. It's kind of fascinating. So the new version of showing off that you're wealthy is having a six pack, It's not having a Louis Vuitton bag because you know, can like anybody can buy that with a credit card. So the minute it becomes mainstream, it's no longer dimension of status. You know, certain brands of clothing that have no labels on them are recognized by one percent of the population as being high status. So that's the whole thing. But now having an incredible fitness, especially into your fifties, is a status symbol because that's very difficult to achieve if you don't have money. We are misaligned on what actually matters, but we pay attention a lot to these kind of visible cues of status that aren't, you know, legitimate cues of status, but it's just it's rare and it's associated with having wealth.