0:12 - Intro: The "Tinder Swindler" becomes our new dating app villain; how do we spot a fraud and con artists?
5:27 - The 10 Year Anniversary of Kony 2012. Social media's 1st phony moral panic, but certainly not our last.
16:40 - "Don't Say Gay" Bill: Our newest phony moral panic, and the social media movement to distort a Florida bill about parental rights.
27:27 - Breakdown of current issues in the Russia-Ukraine conflict: Status of the military campaign, replacing Russian oil production, and Victoria Nuland's strange exchange with Marco Rubio
50:18 - Former Lead FBI Negotiator Chris Voss and Beyond Media Founder Nicole Benham join Matt to discuss "The Tinder Swindler", what this tells us about human nature, and how to protect yourself from frauds and con artists.
Calvary Audio Ladies and Gentlemen March Town, the two thousand and twenty two. I am at Bolinsky. This is your weekly dose of sanity, the prevailing narrative. As we always talk about on here, the internet is a wild, wild plays. There are some dark corners that they're now showing showing a light upon revealing some of these digital dating villains. It's called these online dating villains. We talked about west Down Caleb a few weeks ago. Things seem to have quieted down around him, but he has been replaced with the Tinder Swindler. So there's a pretty popular documentary on Netflix kind of regaling the tales of a gentleman named Shimon Hau a k a. Simon Levive who would meet women on Tinder posts, a wealthy jet setting mogul or the son of a wealthy jet setting diamond icon um, who the women with gifts, trips in the prospects of emotional rescue and love, and only to con the women out of millions of dollars. And it turns out he was perpetuating a bit of a Ponzi scheme where uh he'd be whining and dining one of the women with the money that he can from the last woman, and it's a pretty wild story. It tells you a lot about human nature and about human relations. And a little bit later in this episode, I am going to be UH discussing the topic with an expert on human relations, a gentleman named Chris Voss is the former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation UH, founder of the Black Swan Group, and author of a book called Never Split The Difference negotiating as if your life depended on it. So nobody's been in more tense situations where you have to read people, you have to understand what what's making people tick, what their true intentions are than Chris. I'm talking about negotiating for the release of hostages in the Middle East from murderous thug terrorist groups, and obviously you learn a lot about human nature through those experiences, and Chris brings that to Baron. We're gonna be talking a little bit about UH that with also with my friend Nicole Benham, who is the founder of Beyond Media, who's also very shrewd, kind of shrewd mind documenting these things. We talk about kind of the the controversies and the frauds that pop up in the digital dating world all the time. Um But basically, and as Chris's book recounts, he's focuses on the techniques and principles that hold the keys to unlock profitable human interactions in every domain, and for better for worse, the techniques and principles that can unlock profitable human interactions can also unlock risky human interactions. Right. The people that have these skills and these techniques down, they can use them for good or they can use them for evil. In the case of the Tender swindler, obviously he used them for some unsavory objectives. And we're going to get into how how do you how do you spot a fraud, how do you spot a liar? How do you deal with a liar? And how do we kind of take self inventory to understand what our own vulnerabilities may be in being duped by somebody like the Tinder swindler. And it always kind of hearkens me back to an early experience I had in my professional career. That is why I've been able to have a better radar for these things, because I experienced it kind of young and Luckily there are no negative impacts from this. But I had a client UM will remain nameless, and someone had preferred to me, and he would I never met him face to face. We'd only communicate but a phone and digitally. And he kept on finding himself in trouble with various landlords and jumping from renting a home, renting home to home. And he seemed like a nice enough guy on the phone, but he'd always have an excuse as to why he couldn't pay someone, why he was late on his you know, three months behind on his rent to his landlord, and UM seemed perfectly fine. I mean I I was trying to assist him in a professional capacity, so UM, obviously I was inclined to believe his stories, but they're clearly clearly there is a pattern of behavior here. And and and eventually it turned out that this gentleman was lying to everybody about you know, his identity, UM, his profession. And it just showed me that certain people are capable of of lying to an extent beyond what a normal person is capable of. And I think that's part of the reason why people are susceptible to frauds like the tenderest one there is that you don't believe that there's anyone who would lie to this extent. You don't believe anyone either one would have such malicious intent, or two is capable of of lying this much and then sleeping at night. The first lesson in being able to sniff out these frauds is understanding that there are people who are truly sociopathic. Okay, they will believe their own lies. They will uh some way, somehow. They tell themselves before they go to sleep each night that whatever this fantasy of of their excuses, or why they haven't been able to fulfill their obligations, or why they told this person that they were going to pay them six months ago and they're they're still waiting for payment, why that's okay, and why there's some excuse, and why they're really being oppressed by somebody actually trying to collect on the money that this person owes them. And so understanding that the more elaborate someone's story is, the more that you have to come up with explanations for why this person's behavior is not fraudulent. That's usually a pretty good tip off that that this person is giving them the run around. So Chris Nicole and I are going to get into this in far more detail, and we're gonna be able to lean on all the principles that Chris disgust in his book, who is obviously geared towards negotiating, but all the skills and tactics that are useful to one in a negotiation, whether it be a business or personal context. Also, you know, are very translatable to understanding how to spot a fraud, particularly the digital dating world or in just the digital world in general, because we're experiencing so many people with their their digital facade first before we meet them in person. So I think it'll be a really interesting and useful conversation for everybody. Okay, So, also this week the tenure anniversary of Coney two thousand and twelve. Everybody remember Coney, the first instance of hashtag activism, SLA activism, and what Susie Weiss and a fascinating piece this week referred to as the legacy of the Internet's first moral panic. And these moral panics around these social media causes or these foes social justice cause, they keep on popping up. And you know, Susie's thesis was that we we've never escaped Coney, that Coney was the first in it tipped us off to what we were going to see continually in the social media era of some moral hannock around us, supposed moral wrong that if we just build enough awareness around will somehow solve it, and if we want to feel like good people, we can participate in it by speaking up on social media and somehow contributing to the implementation of justice. So if people don't quite remember Coney, it was a viral video that was released on YouTube that just did incredible numbers hundred and three million views within about a week, and it was about some Ugandan warlord named Coney who was committing atrocities all over the place, recruiting child child soldiers, um molesting a female inhabitants of towns that he would invade in just a horrendous anything you could think about that could go wrong with an evil African warlord, this was what Coney was engaging in. And so an individual named Jason Russell, as Susie Wise explains it. So as Jason Russell, Invisible Children's Young Blond Enthusiastic co founder explained in the mission video, Jason told us Coney was an elusive Ugandan war lord and leader of the Lord's Resistance army, and he was terrorizing northern Uganda, capturing girls, turning them into sex slaves, and turning boys into child soldiers. There are montages of facially mutilated Ugandan people, and then other kinds of kids dancing, slick graphics, and even a song by Mumford and Son's nine nine Inch Nails. We were told that Coney would be captured if only we could quote unquote make him famous. That was the slogan. The logo was Donkey, a donkey and an elephant in an olive branch, which is actually reminiscent of the Obama campaign. And that's something that I think for people forget is that the artwork around Coney was essentially a replica of the Obama artwork, and as she says, it fits snugly with another one of the campaign's mottos. One thing we can all agree on. The whole drive was meant to culminate an event called Cover the Night on April twelve, when all of the teen activists would stay out past curfew, blanketing our towns with posters of Coney. So when the grown ups woke up in the morning, they would have no choice but to just go and get him already. So here here's what's kind of happening. The idea that once again identifying an injustice, creating a social media campaign to kind of foment posting and sharing around this topic that make people feel that they're participating in in some really righteous social movement simply by posting on social media, and that by creating enough awareness, say his name, make him famous, it will somehow solve the problem. But much like with many of these campaigns that are based around this, this these illusions and slocaneering, it all ended up being bullshit. Apparently, by the time the Coney video came out, the Lord's Resistance Army and Coney hadn't even been active in Ugandi since two thousand and six, they hadn't launched a large scale attack anywhere since two thousand and ten. Apparently Obama had already made an attempt to capture comment Coney, which failed, and and the whole idea that this was an active African warlord actively committing these atrocities and something that was definable enough a problem, definable enough to go and solve was a complete illusion. Um even beyond that. About ten days later, Jason Russell, the founder of this organization and and the producer of this video, went insane and was caught on video in San Diego naked, attacking and vandalizing cars. He had a mental breakdown and was involuntarily put in a mental institution for about three months. So also is something that becomes quite a consistent pattern of these things. It ended up being an embarrassing failure and embarrassing everybody who decided to participate in it. So getting people's hopes up that they're participating in a righteous social justice cause, only for it to be an embarrassing failure and an illusion, and of course the normal celebrity participation. Angelina Joe Lee got involved. Justin Bieber posted on it. Bono said that Jason Russell deserved an oscar, and Oprah threw in two million dollars, a two million dollar donation through her foundation. And so it's really interesting because Coney was such an embarrassing failure. It turned out that the founder, you know, it, was a complete nut case. And this this was all some fabricated attempt just to kind of a marketing campaign playing on people's emotions and you think that, Okay, well, well that would kind of signal to society we shouldn't do this anymore, We shouldn't participate in these kind of fabricated social media marketing campaign causes um around these moral panics that there's some great outrage or and justice that we need to go solve using our phone as a tool. But the exact opposite thing happened. This became a hallmark of society, and we've just been perpetuating these moral panics in these fo social justice online causes, in this hashtag activism ever since. It's incessant, and you can look at something like me Too and say that you know whether or not me Too might have gone a little too far, that there there was a lot, uh, that there was meat on the bone there, that that this was identifying an actual injustice, and that there were tangible results from it. But let's look at the score card. Let's look at the track record of hashtag activisms and PHO social justice moral outrage campaigns on the Internet, and let's be honest, more of them ended up like Coney two thousand twelve, then like me Too. And I think it's very telling because it really reveals where society's moral compasses at and where society's moral centers. And also you know where people are putting their attention, right, because if people continue to just repetitively fall for these these marketing campaigns that end up being somewhat misrepresentative um and don't actually accomplish anything, that it shows that people are putting a lot of time, attention, and effort and resources into things that do not move the ball forward, um, Into things that do not perpetuate or proved society. And why is that? And and I think Susie why she made an interesting point everyone forgets right, We're only about four or five years into the smartphone era when when Coney happened, you know, iPhone released two thousand and seven, and I think, you know, we really didn't pick up kind of full blown adoption of smartphones right around in two thousand and eleven twelve, and just kind of see that with the advent of Instagram and photo sharing apps, so you know, we finally have this tool in our pocket that can provide us, you know, communication with anyone and any piece of information known to men at the snap of our fingers. And con and all these hashtag activism campaigns. They give people the impression that they have a tool that they can use to feel better about themselves, to to improve their moral standing in the world, and to really make a difference by participating in these campaigns. There's a guy named Chris Buiser I believe his house name is pronounced I found on Twitter and he had a lot of interesting thoughts on Coney kind of broke down said, Okay, what was really going on here? What does this say about society and signaling why we've we've become a society of hashtag activist campaigns going forward. Um So, some of his thoughts, the central concept of Cony repeated over and over. If enough people know who Cony is, his reign would end. The reason it imploded so fast that was pretty soon it became clear that enough people didn't know who he was and that awareness failed. So you think if someone tolds you, hey, if we just make enough people aware of cancer that we will cure cancer, I mean you obviously would tell them that that's absolutely ridiculous. But with some of these other these other campaigns, we we believe that this is actually how things work. That awareness in and of itself, or at least awareness as the first step to towards some other, you know, indefinable, er vague goal towards in further rance of solving a problem. I mean, it just it feels like it's giving us a false sense of how easy it is to solve society's problems. Right, And let's say Cony was actually still active in Uganda at the time. Was there really a chance that we were going to go, you know, send a militia or some special forces to go shut him down, and that this social media campaign was going to create the conditions to do so. While our government and you know, the the hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars we're spending towards UH foreign affairs, the military and military intelligence, and that that that money was just all sitting dormant, and then some of it was gonna start to be put towards solving this Coney problem if only we made it a big enough deal on social media. Apparently some people thought so, or at least subconsciously. Buyser goes on the ideological hyperstition vork text of awareness drives a viral adoption curve. Belief itself is given quasi magical powers. It becomes an end in its own right, belief itself has given quasi magical powers. I think that's a very interesting way to put it. Um He puts this as a mill a millenarian missionary movement. It feels like that that's also a good description here. It feels like these are all missionary movements. Like, hey, if you if you want to kind of pay your dues to society um and and contribute in a moral manner, because you're not contributing on a day to day basis in your own life, participating these hashtag activist campaigns and and that will get you to put get you the karma deposits that you need. And so I guess I kind of see this as more replacement. Is that participation in these campaigns one. I mean, they're based on kind of the shallow investigation that that social media really indulges too much. Nobody nobody does the research, right. We see this viral video UM regarding Cony, and nobody investigates whether or not it's actually true. They tug on people's heartstrings. It's got very vivid imagery. We think, oh, there's no way a person like Jason Russell is is pulling one over on us. This must be some righteous campaign this, this must actually be going on. We don't actually look to see. Wait a second, is this warlord? Is this story true? Is this warlord active? Have there been attempts to capture him previously? If so, If not, why weren't Why weren't they And if so, why were they unsuccessful? Had they done any research, they would have all seen that this was going to end as a dumpster fire. So that's also one of our kind of consistent universal habits now shallow inquiry and research. Beyond that, I mean, it's just the reliance and the reaction being so reactionary to slogans. As Susie Wise continues, we learned to pair each year slogans and posts infographics and put our preferred pronouns in our bios and believe that this was the same thing as fighting injustice. We let corporations and opportunists tell us that they take care of the hard part if only we donate our money or email our representative, and we use their forms and language and dedicated our feeds to the cause. So I think that is very telling as to this being a replacement for true morality that people don't feel great about what they're contributing to the world from a personal and professional standpoint in their day to day lives, so they figure, okay, participation in these causes or in these social media movements that will fill the void, that will put the points on the board that I don't otherwise score in the rest of my life. But at the end of the day, it's simply not true. This is all really just traditional marketing campaigns using the same advertising tricks persuasion tricks that advertising and marketing firms have been using forever, except for to play on people's emotions to participate in what would be otherwise be very serious hues. And this is really just an un serious way to approach serious issues, as we'll get to in a second reguarding what is being called again very falsely, just like Coney was very false the Florida don't say gay bill yet that this is a problem we've got. We need to return to seriousness. Unless we're looking at these moral these online moral panics and hashtag activism campaigns with an initially skeptical eye, we will we will continue to slide into un serious attempts to solve serious problems. God, it is so fitting that this is the tenure anniversary of Coney because we have almost a perfect analog this week with another hashtag activist foam moral outrage campaign based on a false pretense. This time it is the Florida quote unquote don't say gay bill. Okay. So the background here is there's a House Bill fifteen fifties seven termed the Parental Rights and Education Bill, that was passed by the Florida House of Representatives a few weeks back, now went this week to the Florida Senate where it was just approved. We'll go to the governor's desk for final approval, okay. So what's going on around that? All the Google results around this story refer to the bill as they don't say gay bill. Okay. So that's the slogan that they've chosen for this one. And what is the supposed injustice or outrage instead of Ugandan warlords? Now, we have apparently a bill that prevents you from saying gay in public schools in Florida, um, in public and in school curriculums, and is silencing and erasing the homosexual community via doing so. Um So they, as I said, there's hundreds upon hundreds of stories written about this this topic, all referring to it as they don't say gay bill, So then you look at it, and okay, obviously the state legislature is not gonna term the bill don't say gay, So okay, who decided that that's what we were going to call the bill? Obviously their opponents to this legislation, and they have decided to label it, successfully in this case, as don't say gay. All right, so let's look at it. Does it actually do this? Does it prevent anyone from saying gay in any circumstance whatsoever? Now, let's look at the legislation's language. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through third grade, or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate. So let's read that again. May not occur in kindergarten through grade three. Okay, So pretty much what this is doing is preventing school curriculum from involving sexual orientation or gender identity for kids up to the age of about seven or eight. Well, it looks like this one was complete and utter bullshit as well. And this is obviously to play on people's emotions because they want to believe that there is this evil attempt to erase gay people from the public school curriculums are or shroud or require gay teenagers gay students to silence themselves and and prevent them from expressing their sexual orientation or gender identity. And of course it turns out that is not at all what is happening, and it's simply not allowing curriculum or or teaching materials on these topics for kids up till about age seven or eight um. But the the reaction is obviously completely devoid and completely detached from those realities, and everybody and the usual suspects both you know, people who have no desire to actually look at the the text of the legislation or investigate any further. I want to participate in this righteous cause and engage in these ridiculous social media hysterics and theatrics to show to be part of to to try to solve the problem. If we can build awareness of I say gay and I've gone and save the homosexual youth community in the state of Florida. Um Luke Skywalker of all people, got Mark Hamill the actor who played Luke Skywalker, tweets out gay gay gay gay gay sixty nine times in a rainbow emoji on his Twitter profile the other day. Um Man, I mean, we're seeing cony all over again. People just all just goes to a dumpster fire based on false pretenses, and people engaging in these ridiculous hysterics all to be part of some cause that turns out to be phony. I mean this is As a reporter responded to Hamill named John Nikosia said that don't say gay bill and quotes might be the largest real time fake news spread by the majority of the mainstream media and history. I won't go quite that far, but clearly this is a falsification of what's going on in the bill. So then when you identify that this is not actually what the bill says, how do people react. Well, then they just they pretty much gaslight. They've deflect and say, well, the problem isn't what it was actually in the bill. The problem is what the bill implies. Right. So a Florida State Representative, Carlos Smith, um he put it that this bill goes way beyond the text of its page. It sends a terrible message to our youth, that there is something so wrong, so inappropriate, so dangerous about LGBTQ people, we have to censor them from classroom instruction. Once again, four kids who are five, six, seven, up to eight years old. To these kids, is sexuality even part of their existence? Why? What is this insistence that we need to talk about sexual orientation or identity with kids who haven't even hit puberty yet. How is this the most important civil rights issue of our time? Right, or at least that people want to want to uh, misframe it as such. And that because Carlos Smith and these people cannot defend, because they realize that they've been revealed to have misrepresented the Billets stuff, they have to come up with some other excuse. So because they can't, they know that their argument as to the actual bill is incorrect, they have to say, oh, well, the bill goes beyond the page, the text of the page. That if you say that we shouldn't be talking about homosexuality with seven year olds, then it signals to seventeen year old homosexuals that there's something wrong with them. I'm sorry that that's that's just not that's such a broken way to look at this topic. And the world in general, we have to acknowledge that like maybe maybe sexuality is not particularly appropriate for various kids in various stages of development, and also that someone sexuality or or gender identity is not the defining characteristic of that person. In general, that just because you're not talking about someone's sexual orientation does not mean that you're not talking about them. Because people are more than just their senses category, They're more than just their identity group. And you know something, I get a lot of direct dem s from gay people and gay followers of mind that are not on board with this stuff. They acknowledge that their their lifestyle is a deviation from head M normativity, and that that that doesn't acknowledging that doesn't necessarily mean that people are being critical of them. They understand that there's a biological foundation to procreation and that you know, I had a gentleman, a gay follower of mind message me in response to this topic today and say, like, listen, me and my my husband, we we had a surrogate and we have two daughters and we have a loving, wonderful family, and that's fantastic. But I can explain to my child that this is why you have to that you know that that you were not born to a mother and you have two fathers. Okay, And just because it's appropriate and makes sense for me to be able to explain that to my kid doesn't necessarily mean that it should be taught to everybody else's kid through a public school curriculum in second freaking great. And it's just it's a really bad sign that so many people realize that very sensible approach that I just described that that that's the right approach, but feel uncomfortable saying it because once again, these these are just intimidation campaigns under the guise of social justice, these moral panics that we're doing the right thing and if we participate in this, then we're bending the arc of the universe towards justice. But it's all ship. But then you look and once again, it's the responsiveness. It's that people don't feel good enough, whether people are corporations, don't feel good enough about how they're conducting themselves on a day to day basis that when when they see one of these campaign where they see the pressure, they see that hey, there's a wrong, there's there's an injustice and a wrong to be righted, and here's an opportunity for me to participate in that, or that they they are concerned or suspect that they'll be subject to criticism for not participating in it, that they have to get vocal about it. And that tips over into the corporate world, because look at this. Disney CEO Bob Schapick says he called Governor to Santis this morning and conveyed his disappointment quote unquote regarding that don't say gay bill. He and Disney execs will meet with the Governor. He adds that Disney is signing a statement opposing such legislation across the US. Then chap It goes on to say, I understand our original approach, no matter how well intended, didn't quite get the job done. Look at what's actually happening here. The most prominent kids entertainment brand, youth entertainment brand on Earth fuels sure from people to go and oppose legislation and express their disappointment at a bill that says that we shouldn't be discussing someone's gender or a sexual orientation or gender identity with kids who are five through eight years old. Okay, look look at how broken armor. This is a lost society right when you have powerful organizations that are supposed to be there to entertain, to provide loving, charming and inspiring content and amusing content to children, beloved content. Now feel that that it's their moral imperative to make sure that we discuss that that we are able to talk about any types of alternative sexuality or gender orientation, or people who have gender gender dysphoria um to two little children, regardless of their developmental stage. That this is not something for the home for parents, That this is something that needs to be run through all public institutions. And why is this Do you think Bob Shapeck and the shareholders in the board over Disney really think that this is the issue and the folcrum on which the morality of society turns. No, it's because the most vicious, the most ignorant people who misrepresent the nature of the bill and it will just dismiss once it's revealed their ignorance is revealed, will just move on to another excuse in another criticism. Because they are the loudest and most vicious on the internet, they get to trigger and they get to catalyze action by corporate actors. Because note because these corporations are still so overly reactive to any criticism on the internet whatsoever. What do you think was gonna happen to Disney if they just didn't comment on this, if they just move the hell on right, nothing was going to happen to them. In two weeks, everyone's gonna move on from this topic. You'll get a couple of stragglers, and it's gonna be out of the news cycle. But these corporations, they just can't They cannot help themselves. They can't resist it when anything hits a news cycle and they are subject to any type of palpable criticism whatsoever, they think they have to react. They just don't get it. Just shut up. Wait everybody, everybody loses attention and moves onto something in a week and a half of all the topics for them to get involved in and take a stand on um General named Kyler, Shutelery, mention and on on Twitter. If Disney's corporate leadership thinks it as a fiduciary interest in teaching sex to precate a third graders, maybe a more intensive investigation of their business practices is in order, Like this is kind of devious, This is kind of degenerate. It's like, no, I'm sorry, I don't want Disney chiming in on teenage and youth sexuality. Disney has no place commenting on whether or not there are certain young uh boys and girls who have a mental dissociative disorder where they believed that they were born in the wrong body and want to be the other gender. No, Disney has no place commenting on that topic whatsoever. Yet, because we live in we live in the age of Coney all stretching back to that incident and how hashtag activism became a thing, Um and more were trying to all build. You know, we kind of uh believe that everything is a function of awareness. These corporations now think that they need to get involved in these types of subjects and topics. So I don't know, I want to go support the companies that don't get involved, that focus on their fiduciary interests or also focus on true injustices that are relevant to their business. I'm sorry. Making sure that we teach second graders about gender identity and sexual orientation is not the great civil rights battle of our time. And if you think it is, you're really being dishonest, and it seems like you're searching for something. You're searching for you don't You don't really have enough good to feel about in your own life that you feel like you have to snatch for for kind of uh more, you have to snatch for tokens of salvation through these types of campaigns, and you gotta step off this stuff. Okay. So the war in the Ukraine is still raging. All the effects of the Russian invasion are being felt, and we're seeing what the second third, fourth order impacts are um on the world's economy, commodity prices, social media and communications, and companies detaching themselves from Russia, the global balance of power. That they're just so many storylines that that go into this or could be relevant to that situation right now that it's almost impossible to choose one. So right now, I'm just gonna go through a handful of kind of sub storylines that seem interesting and materials that I've found that that I think help give more texture, help you be more informed on the topic. UM One thread that I found that was very interesting a friend of mine, Matt Palmer Um. He's a security consultant and he he has he's had some very interesting UM perspectives on the Russian invasion and even kind of called it a couple of weeks before it happened, when I was a little more skeptical that it was going to happen. Um. So here's from Matt some notes on the war in Eastern Europe and it's rapidly propagating consequences. It is incredibly important to recognize that the belligerence in this ship fight have been part of the same polity for polity for over a thousand years less the last thirty, Right, so the Ukraine and Russian and Ukraine have kind of been under the same you know, they have a lot of ethnic crossover and been under the same sovereign blanket for most of modern times. Right. The last thirty years have only have been the exception to that rule. And that is something that is coreta understanding why this conflict is taking place, is that there is a depending on who you talk to, a valid or or what an invalid but palpable over whether these two nations should be set separate countries, whether it be separate sovereign or whatnot. And and you've got a lot of the ethnic conflicts that have raged for hundreds of years and have a long legacy that play into that. So he goes on, I don't say this to diminish the Ukrainian cause in any way whatsoever. Kiev and live are entitled to self government, independent of course of dictates coming from the Czar or is low rent postmodern stand in obviously being referring to Putin. What is being litigated is the legitimacy of this millennial old polity. The ruling step power, whether must Muscovites, ars mongol at Bolshevik, has made a habit of treating the people who live in what we now call Ukraine like absolute ship. They have every reason and every right to violently reject the reimposition of Muscovite hedge money. Um so this is nothing new. Once again, the people who live in the kind of western regions where where Asian and Eurasia, where Europe and Eurasia attached to each other, have always been under threat of conquest from those from the the Russian or Muscovite steps right, whether you know more to the north with the Russian people's or to the south, but the Mongols right so, and once again, thinking about this only in terms of the post Cold War order where we drew these somewhat arbitrary lines of nationhood. Um, that's that's not the right way to be thinking about these things. And you can't see this conflict other than through its historical perspective. Speaking about historical perspective of very interesting exchange happened in Congress this week between Marco Senator Marco Rubio and Under secretarive Under Secretary of State of Political Affairs, Victorian Newland, who was Victoria Newland. She has quite a resume in public service, United States Ambassador to NATO under George W. Bush, spokesperson for the United States Department of State under Barack Obama, succeeded by Jensaki, of all people, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs towards the later Obama years, and then came back into government service after Donald Trump was gone, and is now the Under Secretary of State of Political Affairs. UM. Victoria Newland has quite a history with the Russia Ukraine conflict because, as is described in all of her personal materials, Newland was the the u S point person for the Revolution of dignity. The Revolution of dignity, as we all know was the Orange Revolution, the street revolution in the Ukraine in two thousand fourteen that overthrew a more Russian friendly president at such time installed a a more independent, more Western friendly UH regime, and the really that was the pretext to this entire conflict. Everyone who thinks that this war started to two years ago as missing out of the point. This has just been an escalation of the war that was raging in this region for many years, whether the start was the Revolution of Dignity or Vladimir Putin's responsive invasion of Crimea and his annexation, but either way, Victorian Newland was coordinated with non governmental organizations on the ground in the Ukraine to provide them financial support, one billion dollar loan guarantee and the promise of additional American support if if the the revolution, if the the coup against the Russian president Viktor Yanukovich at such times succeeded. So once again, this is one of the events that is key to the causality of this situation. Right everyone, once again, we'll say, well, if you just acknowledge causal factors and realities that of course you're you're blaming the United States of the West and saying that it's our fault quote unquote that Vladimir Putin invaded his neighboring Ukraine. Uh, instead of just once again acknowledging causal realities, but once again. Victorian Newland has quite a long and sortid history of activity in this region and her she's very much a neocon. Her beliefs are that the United States needs to exercise its power and its authority to mold the the international order in its image. And if that means, you know, getting involved in foreign affairs and overthrowing a government or help in one country invade its neighbor or arming it in order to prevent an invasion, then hey, the the United States interests are relevant to all of these situations and we need to get involved. Okay, So what happened here this week with her and Marco Rubio. Um So, Glenn Greenwald has a fantastic peace on this Victoria Newland. Ukraine has biological research facilities, worried Russia may seize them. Okay, so um Over the past couple of months, there's been some some rumors going around that their bioweapons or biosecurity labs in the Ukraine, and those those claims have been fact checked a number of times, and this has all been labeled misinformation or a false conspiracy theory. As Greenwald explains, self anointed fact checkers in the US corporate press have spent two weeks mocking his disinformation and a false conspiracy theory, the claim that Ukraine has biological weapon labs, either alone or with US support. They never presented any evidence for their ruling. How could they possibly know, how could they prove the negative? But nonetheless they invoked their characteristically authoritative, above it, above it all tone of self assurance and self arrogance, right to the decree of truth, definitively labeling such a false claim. Okay, So the idea that there were any bioweapons labs in Ukraine or that the Ukraine has any bioweapons was just brushed aside his misinformation and nonsense. So that brings us to yesterday in Congress when Victorian Newland is appearance speaking being questioned by Marco Rubio, and ostensibly Senator Rubio was there to debunk these claims that there are chemical weapons labs in the Ukraine, and he smugly asked Newland does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons? And uh, let's go to Greenwald. Rubio undoubtedly expected a flat denial by Newland, thus providing further proof that such speculation is dastardly fake news emanating from the Kremlin, the CCP, or Q and on. Instead, Newland did something completely uncharacteristic for her, for neo cons and for senior US foreign policy officials. For some reason, she told the version of the truth. Her answer visibly stunned Rubio, who, as soon as you realized the damage she was doing to the US messaging campaign by telling the truth, interrupted her and demanded that she instead of affirmed that if a biological attack were to occur, everyone should be a hundred percent sure that it was Russia who did it. Okay, so what was her answer? Rubio asked this question? The question is does the Ukraine possessed chemical or biological weapons? Newland does not deny it at all. She goes, Ukraine has a biological research facilities, and we are now, in fact, quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of those labs. So we were working with Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach. So apparently this was not the answer that Marco Rubio was expecting. I mean he he was asking this very blythe and clib question in order for it to be debunked, right right. You know, if I ask whether the Ukraine has any bioweapons labs and this high ranking defense official can just brush that insinuation or that claim aside, then okay, we've made it look foolish and this is clearly a conspiracy theory. That's not what happened. I mean, Newland kind of soft acknowledged that there are some labs studying chemical and biological weapons in Ukraine and this and to that effect, because this is a matter of national security that if we're going to get involved in this conflict, that Ukraine and its Western allies and the countries that pretty much everyone who has lined up in support of Ukraine does not want Russia to seize these labs and whatever the materials are that are being made there. And then yes, Rubio Rubio proceeded to try to clean up the situation by saying, oh wait, it seems it's been revealed that there are by by a weapon labs there. Well, okay, well, what are they do? They have just a purely defensive posture, and then he asks this kind of vague, meaningless question about, well, if there's a biological attack, it clearly was was done by the Russians and Newland you know, answers in the affirmative, But what does that really tell us? Like it seems like this gives it gives reason or predicate for further inquiry. Right, what are these labs? What what's being made there, what's being studied there? And who's supporting them? Because there's a lot of claims going on that the U s it does have a number of these labs around the world, um, and it's supporting them. Um. China has gotten to the fray in these claims, as Greenwall goes. The Chinese Foreign Ministry this month claimed that the US has three thirty six labs and thirty countries under its control, including twenty six and Ukraine alone. Once again, I have no dog in this hunt. I don't want to blame the United States. I don't want to believe that the United States is the bad actor or is being dishonest. But there's a claim that the United States is supporting the study of biological weapons abroad and certain hot button country and Victoria Newlands seems to have acknowledged that those claims are true, right, Okay, so now it seems like we need to we need to investigate this further, like more needs to be and be revealed about what's going on at those labs. Um So, I don't know, we'll see if this topic just disappears into the ether, or if there is further inquiry, or if the Russians go ahead and there's evidence or documentary footage revealed of them capturing such a lab. Um. But it was very interesting and I think if you want to understand more about the situation some of the I mean, it's just so such a loaded word to to use the term fault. But to the extent that we can should not be surprised that Vladimir Putin took a you know, Western provocation in involving itself in affairs in its neighboring country, um as as some sort of provocation. The roles of the role of Victoria Newland and people of her in other States department employees, that's something to look into. And I think she's she's an unfortunate, you know, character who want fortunately is very critical to the scenario. Okay, so what's the military situation on the ground as it stands right now? Last week I interviewed sam O Boria, who's an expert on these topics, who described how everybody was probably jumping and being jumping to too many conclusions and being a little too reactive to just the first few days of the war. Um and understand that while the Russian forces probably did not perform as well as had been anticipated and encountered a number of logistical challenges and the Ukrainian resistance was stiffer, that this only told so much because the Russian forces and't just war in general takes longer to play out that you know, Given the the asymmetrical or the lopsided uh standing of military force and the Russian military's heavy, heavy reliance on heavy artillery as opposed to air power, it was just inevitable that this conflict was going to drag out a little bit longer. As he put it, these wars move at the speed of tanks, not tweets. Okay, so a week later, where do we stand. So Obviously it's incredibly difficult to find good and to verify information on this, but a couple of people that I found do seem pretty uh pretty credible on the topic. One individual is Bill Roggio. He's a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defensive Democracies UM. He summarized what he sees as the situation on the ground right now, and he believes that things are starting to look not so great for the Ukrainian military. They have held up and fought, fought bravely and admirably UM, But from what he's seen, the strategic situation for Ukrainian force in Kiev in the east is not good. There hasn't been a lot of movement by the Russians overall. However, it appears that the Russians are consolidating their positions, preparing and positioning and moving with the goal of encirclement in several key regions. Russian forces are moving to cut off the far eastern areas close to the Dumbas region, both north northeast of Marjahpool and east of Isum. There are also credible reports the Russians are seking to march on the city of Nepro on the Niepr River, and if the Russians can take this region, then the eastern half of Ukraine would be cut. UM. So okay, it seems that just the inevitable, that the the totality in the weight of Russian forces just wearing down the Ukrainians and although they've they've inflicted far more damage on the Russians than anticipated. Just eventually, this this weight, you know, it's like a seven game series, UM, amongst you know, the first seed in the eighth seed in the NBA playoffs. Eventually, while the first you know, number one seed has more firepower, more manpower, they might have trouble over the first couple of games, but across a longer sample size of a seven game series, eventually the stronger team wins out. And that seems to be what's happening here. Okay, so what is that? What is the diplomatic situation? UM? There have been apparently there have been negotiations going on between the parties. Appears that UM is really President enough Tally Bennett or sorry, Israeli Prime Minister enough. Tally Bennett has been trying to intervene here, and he was meeting with Putin this week and that the proposal put forth was deemed difficult but not impossible, and it's worse than what Zelinsky would have gotten before the invasion. But the gaps between the sides are not great. So what are the specifics? Here? A piece in the Jerusalem Post mentions Zelinsky can fortify Ukraine's independence, but we'll have to a heavy price. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested dun Bus region officially recognized. The pro Russian dissidents in the Ukraine pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If you decline the proposal, the outcome may be terrible. Perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die, and there's a high probability that this country will completely lose its independence. So it looks like Putin's going to achieve a number of his objectives, just as at a heavier cost than he was anticipating. And this once again speaks too simple, simple strategic realities, that the military imbalance between the two countries was just too great, and given Putin's will, given his willingness to take to to shoulder those costs, um and bear them, which you know, given Russian Russian history, they've always been been willing to bear significant costs in war. It was just inevitable that this conflict was going to turn out this way. Who knows there could be a miraculous defeat of the Russian army. Um, there could be a there have been no shortage of rumors of low morale and these logistical problems that we've mentioned. Who knows there could be a brave last in and to turn around by the Ukraine. But it is looking like we are fast approaching some sort of diplomatic solution over the next week or so um based on just the inevitable military reality that that the Russian forces are encircling key regions of the Ukraine and the Ukrainian forces can only hold on for so much longer. Okay, so what other key issues are popping up right now related to this situation? Obviously gas, I am sure if you're in the United States right now, you have seen gas prices and they are eye popping, crazy and out of control. According to gas Buddy data, the average price of diesel in the US has reached five dollars per gallon this week. That is the highest level ever recorded. Another inevitability that you know that Vladimir Putin smarter than people, seems some people want to give him credit for he had been preparing for this for a while and just incrementally made the West and Western Europe dependent on Russia for natural resources like oil and gas and to and put us in a position where if they wanted to, if we took a hostile position towards Russia and putin there was gonna be paying at the gas pump. And that seems to be what we're seeing right now. Um. So we've got sky high prices. I mean, it's has an incredible inflationary effect um on the American economy. And now you know, some people are even wondering, wait, are is the Fed even gonna have to go ahead and raise raise rates? Are we going to have to cut off quantitative easing because an increasing gas prices seems to be soaking up all the money. I mean that that is pumping the brakes on the economy more than a rise in interest rates. Um. So how are we adapting to this? How are we responding? Well, we're the US obviously with Russia, now that Joe Biden has declared an embargo on Russian oil and gas that we will not be taking it and will trying to squeeze Russia on its natural resources. We got to look to our our other suppliers. UM. At least, the initial overture to Saudi Arabia and the u a E did not go very well. UM. Saudi and m Arati leaders decline calls with Biden during Ukraine crisis. Apparently, this week President Biden reached out to leaders of Saudi Arabia and the UAE to try to convince them to increase Opeque oil production to to replace Russian supply. UM. The first call did not go so well. It it looks like the u a E has turned around a little bit, and you know responded and mentioned that they are in favor of increasing production and will advocate for increased production by OPEC. But why are we having having so much trouble. We've been close allies with Saudi Arabia for god knows how long, and they've always been Some could say that the American economy, UM, the engine of the American economy has been cheap gas from this region, given our strong strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia over the years. Well, you know, oil is not the only factor that determines the quality and health of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Um our relationship with Saudi Arabia has deteriorated quite a bit since Joe Biden has taken office. As a Wall Street journal piece summarizes the scieties of signal that the relationship with Washington has deteriorated under the Biden administration, and they want more support for their intervention in yemen civil war, help with their own civilian nuclear programs Iran's moves ahead, and legal immunity for Prince Mohammed bin Sultan in the US, as Saudi official said, as the crown Prince faces multiple lawsuits over the killing of journalists Jamaal Kashoghi in two thousand eighteen. Okay, so what's been going on in Saudi Arabia in recent years? Saudi Arabia has made overtures to the West. It's trying to modernize. You've got a very young crown Prince, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Selmhan, who's wanted to modernize the nation. Um granted additional additional rights to women, has taken a condor and software approach towards Israel for a number of reasons, further integration into the world's economy and also as a counter as a counterweight to the growing influence of Iran Um. Iran is a Shiite Muslim country, Saudi Arabia is a Sunni Muslim country, and those are pretty we could one could say that those are the two most prominent countries of those two sects of Islam. Right, so in playing off in the enemy of my enemy is my friend, uh Saudi Arabia has been warming up to the West. And also, you know, Donald Trump did seem to be very forgiving of some of the marks on the Saudi Arabian record and was welcoming the overtures of of the Saudi Arabians and Prince Been salmon Um that has been reversed under Joe Biden, and all of a sudden, You know, if you if we do not support the strategic interests of our allies, we can't be surprised when they don't support our strategic interests and they're not as forthcoming. So this, the selling of this relationship once again harms our strategic interests because we werely we have a certain dependence on these countries for natural resources, Okay, and if we we just have to accept the reality that the countries that have access to oil and gas, for the most part, are not countries that conduct themselves in ways that we always approve of, all right, So we have to choose amongst a rogue gallery of potential bad actors that if we don't want to, if we're not going to be supplied by Russia, we may have to be supplied by the Saudi Arabians, may have to be supplied by the Venezuelans. And there's even been some talk of releasing any number of sanctions on Venezuela in exchange for an increase in oil supply. So it's just a reality that you're kind of damned if you do, when you're damned if you don't. And the idea that we can go and get involved in all these different conflicts around the world without affecting our interest really as you see you you want to get involved in the Ukraine Russia conflict, okay, Well that you're gonna, you know, pull a lever in one direction that's going to affect your energy production, your as your access to energy over here, and you're gonna have to go pull another lever in the other direction to warm up to an otherwise um hostile nation or someone you know whose values you don't do not support over here. Um. And these are just the inevitabilities and the realities of geopolitics. UM. So those are ones that are are stark and in the face of every American right now, because this this could get really bad. I mean, yes, well, let's hope that OPEC jack's up production. Um there have been some we can wake up in the morning tomorrow and see if this is this is the case. But one gas futures analyst that I follow says that tomorrow we're going to expect an absolute massive drop in the price of oil because of the signals from OPEC that they're increasing production. But this is clearly a messy situation, and our our supply options have been constricted, and we're gonna have to cozy up to some people who we don't necessarily want to cozy up to in order to in order to replace Russian supply. So, uh, this could get messy for the American economy even you know, a thirty cent fifty cent dollar across the board rise in oil prices for a sustained period of time is going to squeeze a lot of people. And while a lot of politicians can make these lofty overtures and appeals to American sense of duty and responsibility, and that you know, it shouldn't be a sacrifice for us to drive less or have to deal with higher gas and oil prices in order to stand on principle with the fine people of the Ukraine. I don't think a lot of American people are gonna feel that way, okay, And that that is another another reason why we need to question what truly our interest. While we would like to be able to enforce justice and righteousness all across the globe, that the attempt at one we we those things aren't necessarily in our control, and they also have responses in second and third and fourth order impacts that might not be so pleasant. So we really have to have a more judicious and sensible consideration of these interests. And if we thought we could avoid these issues in these topics and staring these questions right in the face before, well I think we all know we can't. We cannot avoid the questions any longer. Um So who knows. By next week we could see a ceasefire and a diplomatic resolution. Things could implode get even messier, and the country could fall into chaos or who knows the Russian army the the rumors of their impending collapse from some corners of the Internet national security could turn out to be correct. Incredibly interesting times. Needless to say, um, so that is the my summary of as many interesting news worthy angles on the rush of Ukraine conflict as as I could fit in here, folks. Um coming up once again, we have Chris Voss, former head FBI, kidnapped negotiator, and my good friend and founder of Beyond Media, Nicole Banam. We will be talking about the tender swindler, get into some culture and how you can protect yourself from being to fraud or being the victim of one of these characters like the tender swindler, God knows who. So it should be a really interesting discussion. Please stick around for it. And this is the prevailing narrative, and we'll have more of the prevailing narrative after the break. So noted romantic philosopher Chris Rock once said, on a first date, you're not meeting someone, You're meeting their representative. That idea is taken on disturbingly heightened meeting in the air of dating apps, with the Internet facilitating reach and increasing the opportunities for deception. This issue has been top of mind recently with the release and popularity of the Netflix documentary The Tinder Swindler, telling the story of Shimon how You a k a. Simon Leviev, who would meet women on the dating app Tinder, posing as a wealthy, jet setting diamond mogul, woo them with gifts, trips, and emotional rescue, only to con the women out of millions of dollars. Here to discuss the topic today, we have Chris Voss, former lead international kidnap negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, founder of the Black Swan Group, and author of Never Split the Difference, negotiating as if your life depended on it. Also we my good friend Nicole Banam, founder of the discussion platform Beyond Media, Web three advisor and interviewer and always a shrewd observer of these dynamics. Chris, Nicole, thank you so much for joining us. It's fun to be in fantastic so um. You know, Chris, obviously you've developed so many incredible insights about human nature and interaction through your experience as getting the most intense UH kidnapping UM and and you know, hostage negotiation situations, and these are the types of things that kind of play into the social dynamics that we see going on in the digital sphere, in the digital dating sphere. Um. You know, in your book you kind of describe what you're doing as discussing the techniques and principles that hold the keys to unlock profitable human interactions in every domain. And those those principles can obviously be very profitable and used for for good and for for evil. And you know one in particular that seems to be prevalent with the the tender Swin learned one that you discussed quite a bit in your book as a as a principle called mirroring. Um. The way it's described as a basic but profound biological principle, we fear what's difference and are drawn to what's similar in that using mirroring, and you know, it could be mimicking vocal donation, body language, speech patterns, vocabulary, or just showing common interest is a way to build rapport, um, build trust and and essentially you know, win someone over. Maybe you could get into a little bit of mirroring, you know, and and kind of the what's underlying that principle, how it's used and how sometimes you know, those who wish to do us wrong, those fraudsters like the tender swindler might use that, you know, as one of the tools in their tool kit. Yeah, well, it's it's really about getting the other person to open up, and their variety of ways to try to get people to open up and similarly similarities. You know, if you're like me, some people might refer to his common ground is one way. And you know con man, uh, tender swindler, anybody is doing that stuff. You know, they're not care they don't care about what works in the majority of people. They're just looking for people to have the vulnerability is to that. So you know, they just keep fishing until they get they find a freset like said bait, so to speak, and and that's how they hit on it. And they know that most people don't, but there are enough to do that they just keep fishing until they hit it. And what would you say if a person is thinking about and trying to be self analytical of their own vulnerabilities of being one of those people who might be susceptible or might have blind spots, Well, you know, and Nicole and I were talking about this a little bit earlier, so I know she's got some stuff, some some enlightening thoughts to share on it, no doubt. But as far as you know, trust your instinct, trust your intuition. You know, people they might get overridden by the con so to speak, or you know this is the somebody like this very sort of in trying to overcome um your obstacles and your resistance by um praying on your weaknesses. But your initial intuition is something is wrong. He should be willing to listen to that. And that's kind of what you were telling me earlier, wasn't in Yeah, um, I remember, I mean multiple times because you know, Chris is a mentor to me, So if I'm in situations where I've felt weird, I have contacted him. And I remember multiple times when I couldn't tell if I was nervous or excited. He'd be like, well, you should listen to that, because it's so easy to confuse the two, like does this person is this person making me like anxious nervous? Or am I super excited to see him? But if you really listen to yourself, like you have the answer and Chris, you always talk about how you know women have really good intuition and how important it is to sharpen that, and it's true. I mean, there's there's nothing better than listening to yourself when it comes to these types, because they're so charismatic, and they're so charming, and they're so I mean, it's easy to fall for you don't know, you know the telltale signs are and so Nicole, obviously, I'm sure you've never encountered or are you very early on sniffed out anyone who might be as malicious as the Tender swindler. But Chris Rock's admonition that you're meeting somebody's representative, I imagine that has rang true in the digital dating world in your experiences. I don't know what. I imagine that that's something that is pretty prevalent when you're meeting people, at least initially online, that they send out their representative, meaning like a completely different version of who they are essentially. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's probably easier to do that on a dating app. The other thing with dating apps is like in the case of the Tinder swindler, he had all these photos with private jets and nice clothes, and it looked like he was living a really fancy lifestyle. And you know, women, I don't speak for every single woman, but women generally look for men who are providers and men you know, who look like they're at least mildly successful. And he was showing that he's very successful just just with images. So with that alone, and he wasn't bad looking either, a majority of women are already going to swipe right just seeing that, so that and you know something after the initial initial impression though, obviously to get to the point at which that that he kind of pulled these women to or they're they're giving up their life savings in order to supposedly rescue him from dire circumstances, and um, he had to come up with a number of stories that but would not necessarily make sense, that would tip off and understanding that what woman's intuition is very powerful, that their instincts probably were tipped off that something was going on, but they somehow explain it away. And this is something that I see often with with fraud sters in various walks of life, is that their story gets more complicated and the you have to layer on more and more excuses for why it makes sense, and it seems it's one of the fascinating ynamics is that people keep on finding ways to make it makes sense. And some people would label this confirmation bias that once they've believed that a person is genuine or holds um promise, that the relationship with this person holds a lot of promise for them, that they'll keep on making internal excuses to justify whatever inconsistencies there are in their story. I don't know, Chris, would you describe that as confirmation bias or or what? What's that dynamic where people um kind of tell themselves lies to to explain away inconsistencies in the story. If someone that want to trust, Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a confirmation bias and people, you know, people are starting to get themselves in a little bit deeper. You know, the the ego starts to override. You know, I can't be fooled or I'm a trusting person. You know, trustworthy people trust, which you know then can potentially make you vulnerable without a sounding Board's somebody to talked to that you're willing to listen to. And you know, then Nicole was talking and we've talked about a lot of stuff. You know, she's she's she said, hey, you know I'm talking to this guy. This doesn't head up, this is this is what doesn't make sense to me. And I'll say, okay, yeah, that doesn't make sense. But if you want to navigate it, navigate it with your eyes open, you know, don't kid yourself as to as to what you're looking at. So in many cases, you know, trusted sounding board we'll help a lot of people navigate these kind of issues because you can get caught up in your own uh ego looking for the best and other people which your command praise on you know, they're look, they're looking for that weakness and that vulnerability, and if you don't have somebody to talk it out with, then you begin to ignore your intuition. There's something's wrong and they're taking advantage of an aspect of your nature that uh they figure that can override what you're gonna just telling you or uh yeah, you start thinking that you're crazy. But the other thing I wanted to bring up about why don't mean I'm not crazy? Um, you're crazy the best way, But I think I think we all are. But I I think the thing that really stands out here to me, especially when you're talking about, you know, people lying to themselves. I think in many cases I've seen, whether whether you're a man or a woman, if you like someone enough, you'll start lying to yourself. You'll make excuses for their behavior, and that's when it gets dangerous. So I think the tender Swindler took people to that point. But and the way that he did it, from what I saw, was becoming very hot and cold, because that feels like gambling. You don't know when he's going to contact you. He's so unpredictable that every time he does contact you, it feels like a reward. There are men who strategically do that to women. I've had friends who told me they do that. It's like a game strategy. So that's something that that I saw him doing. And then also the fact that he was always away. You know when people in long distance relationships, and that's what that was. Um, it makes you miss the other person. You start fanticizing about out them, and he knew that, and that's when he would hit that like the girl is sitting there thinking this may be the love of my life. Oh my god, he's in danger. Of course, I'm gonna wire money to him. This could be my husband, That's what's happening. Do you think that there's any elements of shame in that certain people get into a situation where it, once again, instincts are tipped off that something's wrong, but they don't go to a sounding board because of the shame that if they do go to the sounding board and it turns out that the sound the sounding board gives them the input they don't want to hear that they felt, feel ashamed that they were even led on to this point. Yeah, I think I think that's true. But also I think that whoever is in that situation sorry to take this in a different direction, but needs to choose better friends. I have no problem calling you know, Chris and telling him this is how I feel. I feel attracted to this man who's potentially dangerous. I don't think he would judge me for feeling that way. Like the you know, human beings have normal emotions. I think it's normal even to feel attracted to a guy who maybe a con artist. He's using tactics that are are you know, historically they work, So I think that's a matter of you know, overcoming shame by choosing the right friends. No doubt. Another one of these tactics and principles that that once again could be used for good and for evil is reciprocity. Um. And this is something that is some a little difficult to frame within um the notion of hot and cold, because the ideas that he wanted and died these women, he gave them really aggressive gifts right off the bat, and that kind of endeared the and turns out that they were gifts bought with the purchase with the money that he had swindled from the last victim of the crime, and kind of can perpetuates this kind of Ponzi scheme. But um, how powerful is that that principle of reciprocity, that that once someone uh engages in an act of generosity in your favor, that you're then endeared to participate in one for them, even if it's one that you don't necessarily feel great about. You know, that's an interesting question too, because basically, when when we teach the black Stan method, and we've got enough data to back this up from our own experience, basically three types of people in the world when it comes to interaction, conflict, etcetera, fight, flight, make friends, um and the des sentence from the caveman days that we're at that we descended from. You know. Uh, they saw a saber two tiger on a jungle path, they fought it, they ran from it, they made friends with it. A person who couldn't make up their mind. The caveman couldn't make up their mind and got eating. And they don't have any ancestors. So one of the three types, you know, to make friends type is extremely vulnerable to reciprocity. Now, the other two, the assertive and the analytical type, you know, the assertive for lack of a better, better poster child Donald Trump, Donald Trump, the assertive negotiator. I'm a I'm a natural born assertive. I get something. I figure I should have had it all along. So therefore, I don't you know, I my my natural type is not recognized. Reciprocity a whole lot. You know, you you you know, if you're if you're a love interest and you wine and dine me, I'm gonna say, hey, I deserve that all along. I'm not gonna feel any guilt. The analytical type, they're wary of reciprocity. It's real hard to get them to take anything because they're gonna they're gonna be worried about triggering reciprocity. Somebody pointed out to me in a Big Bang Theory an episode I didn't see, you know, somebody, somebody gave Sheldon, you know, the real smart dude, to gift and as soon as as soon as they handed it to he dropped it. He said, that's not a gift, that's an obligation. They didn't want to have anything to do with it. Not But the e comedy that make friends, the relationship, total relationship oriented type, they're very vulnerable to reciprocity. And that's that's what I was saying before the con man. It's not that these things work on most people. Two out of three people reciprocity is a no go, but one in three it's very powerful. So you just start you just start looking for that fish and and you're gonna hook. Yeah. Yeah, they It seems another one of the kind of preternatural skills that these people have is to be able to sniff out the vulnerable parties. And uh, it's something it's luckily early on in my career and just kind of being around here in the city of Los Angeles, where you're always swimming with the sharks. Luckily came early on with the stakes low and with me not in the crosshairs, came across some of these people who are just able to lie beyond what a normal person has the capacity to do. And you you don't imagine that people like this could actually exist, and if they did, how they sleep at night? But they somehow, they somehow sell themselves on whatever the lies are, and and they continue to perpetuate it. I mean, Nicole, I imagine you know, both in the kind of relations and relations sorry, relationship wise and professionally. I mean you've experienced people like this, uh and your benches around the Los Angeles business and romantic community. Yes, so yeah, not just not just romantically, but workwise. I mean, I I do recall there was something professionally that happened where someone was, you know, lying profusely, and I took it to Chris. I may have discussed it with you, and Chris said to me, you know, I don't know if you should completely rule this guy out, because I want you to sort of observe the way that they operate. You don't need to get too close. You know, don't obviously don't emotionally get in bed with this person. But he's like, I want you to see what people are capable of so that you have the intuition to identify it later on. Um. But you know, when you were talking, Chris about the analytical personality type, UM, it made me think about it made me think about UM. When girls the guys who they later identify as narcissists, they sort of become obsessive. I don't know if you guys have seen, you know, a woman who has gone through a bad relationship, all of a sudden, she's like, worried that every other guy is a narcissist just like her x So, so when that happens, they start looking for telltale signs. One of them is love bombing. And what falls under that category is the lavish spending, the excessive gifts, the early you know, professing your love. So two types like that, especially the ones who have already been through it. This is so easily identifiable. The only danger there is when you start thinking that everything's a con. So, you know, these girls that got swindled, I think probably are are on the lookout constantly, and maybe now they have a wall up that they can't really put down because every nice act that comes their way, every gift that comes their way, they're like, does he try to manipulate me? You know? So there's that danger too, Yeah, absolutely, and so one. And this kind of falls a little more squarely within under the umbrella negotiation, where a lot of these cons do eventually turn into once once the mark is tipped off that something's wrong, that they've departed with certain funds and are now at the point where they're supposed to get it back, but they're having a tough time getting it back. There seems to be this, uh, this kind of pattern that always plays out where the con man promises the money is going to be returned by a certain day or at a certain place or through a certain mechanism, um sends a check or or even establishes a meet up place, but then somehow either a check bounces or or the the meet up goes awry, and yet they're able to continue to draw the person along still believe mean that there's some ways, somehow going to get their get their money back. Um. It feels like a kind of a strategy that is as considered incrementalism or something with the carrot on a stick. I don't know, Chris, how do you see that dynamic where the you continue to make it's to keep the the the return of the funds just barely out of reach. Yeah, well, it's a it's a great game. I mean, it's a hustle. It's a it's a way any hustle or any con artists keeps going. And it's it's hard to extra for any human being. It's hard to extricate yourself from that dynamic. You know, cutting your losses, you know, it's a business problem, Sun costs. I can't walk away from this deal. I've wasted too much money on it already. You know, these these are tough decisions to make. And then being embarrassed by having made the mistake. Uh, you know, everybody's gonna get can somewhere along the line. It's uh, it's not making a mistake is not the sin. The sin is not learning. And so you know, be willing to be smarter today than you were yesterday. And how do your losses is a tough thing to do, but often the smartest thing to do. Whether the person meant to kanya or whether they were just taking you because they couldn't help themselves. So I mean, you get this some cost thing, you get your ego involved. You know, however they trigger you turn it and walking away from your loss is a very hard thing to do and in many cases one of the smartest things any person could do. But it's very hard. And so what do you think is that internal ankst that prevents someone that they don't that they don't want to be believe that they were conned, that they still have some hope and kind of the long tale of confirmation bias that okay, not everything that I initially believed was was wrong, and I'm gonna look look for any any um, any elements that kind of confirmed my initial impressions. Yeah, it's mostly being unwilling to just accept the loss and move on. You know, there's there's a you know, you lost, you lost a much money you you think you could get it back. I mean, it's it's a hard thing to do. Whether it's just kind of a con again, you know, a liar or someone whose behavior is just really bad. You know, when you sunk things into the relationship, emotions, money, time, each one of these has a multiplying effect which is very hard to walk away from but actually everybody should sort of practice it in small steaks so that you just don't get slaughtered on on a big steaks loss. One other dynamic that seemed to play with the tender swindler was kind of the the fulcrum at which he the fulcrum of his con was at the point at which he mentioned that he would he sent he would send the mark pictures of his bodyguard bloody and bleeding, and mentioned that he was in danger and uh that he needed he needed access to their credit cards, were needed money because his enemies had cut off all his finances and he was in trouble. And that seems to trigger a certain kind of rescue response that's very much inherent with with a lot of females. Um and may you seem that females are uniquely in their their desire to be nurturing and protective and and you know, and to s sometimes rescue men who seem to be imperil um. That really played on that. I mean, Nicole, is that how you see it? Yeah, It's definitely how I see it, um, And and that's part of the strategy. That's why he hooks them first, makes them feel like they're actually in a committed relationship. You saw the video that he sent to everybody. Every single woman got the same video. I love you, I miss you. You know, finally a woman hears this and she's like, oh, maybe this is real, Maybe this is something that the guy's in danger. Boom, of course I'm gonna come save you know, save his ass. I love him. That's what. That's what. That's the response that he elicited. And so yeah, I'd imagine that that instinct is very powerful with females. I mean, Chris, you know, many of your situations with the FBI, you were dealing with, uh, not not nice nurturing females, but some harsh, harsh dudes out there from you know, various terrorist groups in the Middle East who had kidnapped individuals. And is there uh, you know, any way to utilize that in high stakes negotiations of that sort um where you know, you can almost even when negotiating with someone that that it's very transparently an enemy can kind of appeal to a sense of sympathy or danger even to you know, at first glance, very harsh and brusque individuals. Yeah, well, from from my world, what there's a two different issues of what works in a short term and what works in a in a long time. Like as ridiculous as it sounds, every hostess the negotiator is gonna want to be able to be prepared to meat they adversary on another battlefield and still be able to deal with them out of respect. So there's a there's a very long term perspective for any smart negotiator, whether it be a hostas negotiator or whether it be in business and personal life. Now, you know that's to ignore tremendous short term score. Is that you're gonna roll up, and and that's what a con is all about. I mean that then in a long term gain, that's rolling up as much as possible. You know, again the cold Nicole and I were talking about this earlier. You know, the Ponzi scheme of love if you will, you know, it's uh, it's running stand just standing ahead of the losses, keeping a big scores coming in in front of you because you know the the bridge behind you is burning. All you gotta do is keep going. And that's short term gain. Ultimately a realization at the long term loss is coming. You know, I'm my world, I'm always looking for long term relationships, no doubt, um more to brass tacks. Are there any tip offs? There are any tricks from body language, voice language, linguistics, anything that do kind of are there? Is there a cheat sheet to to spot a liar? It's mostly first of all, when things don't add up. But a liar of this life is going to be very assertive in their lives, and so it's it's when the stuff doesn't add up, there they're gonna come at you. You know, it's almost the phrase gas lighting. I mean, they're throwing a lot of stuff out. You're trying to trying to get you to doubt yourself by being very aggressive. So the more aggressive the other side is in convincing you when you disbelieve is a fine line. Are they aggressive in trying to convince you? Or when somebody is telling the truth and you expressed disbelief, they're they're responsive. Likely you're it, you know, and and they get they get they get aggressive, but in a way to withdraw, like, looky, you're so stupid that you're not gonna believe me, I'm gonna cut off the relationship right now. Whereas and and they mean it, Um, they are actually angry at you. And it's a very fine line between the aggressive attack for not believing them and the con artist is gonna come at you aggressively, assertively the Pinocchio effect, if you will, which is more words used to try to convince you because they know they're lying, and so then in the face of your disbelief, there increase the onslaught to try to get you to believe the lies. Mhmm, yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, it seems like they're every Hey, if people anyone who figured out how to tell a liar right off the bat would go be at the World Series of Poker right now. But at some point it's about, you know, drawing it out at a little larger sample size and seeing if somebody's story adds up, and I'll throw something at you real quick, because that's an interesting analogy. But the people that are really good at poker, they find, you know, a poker player by the other side's tealth, I mean, their gun instincts will be telling them let me, let me take the loss because I've got to confirm what I'm seeing. So you know, by the other side's tell take the loss. I saw, I saw daniel Le grin. I think it was do this in poker. One time. He looked the guy the other side and he said, your your whold two face cards in reduced Now that's what the guy had in his hand. But the only way he could find out was he had to be willing to go ahead and call the bluff on the other side to find out for for sure. So what's the translation to real life if you assume that some if you're concerned that somebody's lying to you, you know, find a way to confirm that it's a lie, as opposed to don't confirm it, and then be willing to be gas gaslight or gaslet you know whatever. The verbia chies. Sure. So, I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to be hesitant to make a prediction that might end up being wrong. But if they end up or if they make an assertion that turns out to be inaccurate, that'll Even if it's inaccurate, they'll it'll still add to their data set of information, helping make more informed decisions going forward. Yeah, definite seems that it's something that is the if you can get past it, it's a hallmark of of a shrewd negotiator and we'll have more of the prevailing narrative after the break, um Nicole, you know, kind of going to a little more uh kind of practical matters of this digital dating world. At the tender Swindler um, he cranked it up to twelve. But a lot of other guys, while they may not necessarily be running cons and trying to separate human beings from their money fraudulently, they are, you know, as we go back to showing them represent kind of not showing themselves, but they're representative. Um. They seem to kind of depart from usual so typical social behavior in trying to uh peacock show off their their assets and resources and engaging kind of some strange behavior and in trying to kind of accelerate uh anything short of pretty much breaking out their bank statements, in showing uh how you know, what they do necessarily have to offer. And it kind of seems a little sociopathic to me and some of the examples that you've told me over the years. But is that do you kind of see when when guys entered that aspect of the dating world that they simply stop acting normal and it's almost like they're they're trying to bullet point out their profile to you. Yeah, I mean they do it with me and and several of my friends. I've seen when they're when they're overly sharing about like how much money they make or you know, how successful they are and who they know and name dropping and stuff like that. To me, it's not always necessarily a con but a sign of deep insecurity, like this person feels like they need to be someone else so that I'll like them, or that you know, whoever the person is on the other side can like them. Um, I mean, I think that stuff to look out for, whether the person is a con artist or not. Of course, we're all on our best behavior in the beginning of the dating phase, Like you know, I do it too. I always present my best self from my most polite, I'm the kindest, and you know, we all do it. But it's like nobody is that perfect. And I think I think like not showing vulnerability over time, uh, not sharing your weaknesses, acting like you're so perfect as a deep sign of insecurity. So you think this has been accentuated during the era of digital dating, when people's attention is so much more fragmented and people aren't. You know, typically if you ended up on a date with someone previously, you had to meet them in a social situation or through a friend. And in the era of digital dating, whether it's through an actual app or just kind of buy happenstance incidentally on another social media platform, that that people are just more inclined to develop their facade because that's how how everybody else is encountering them for the first time. Anyways, Oh a thousand percent, are you kidding me? I mean, look at how many people take men and women take videos of themselves or photos of themselves getting onto a private jet. Mean, what are we trying to tell each other? It's like or or think about, you know, on on women's and I know some men edit their photos, but like, look how much women are editing their photos so that you know, they can sort of reach the standard of beauty which is so hard for women's to reach, especially as they get older and or older. This is just the thing that I've seen, you know, just from from the women's side. But men, of course, like when I'm out with some of my guy friends and they're single, they'll if they're like in a suit or where at a fancy party, They're like, hey, can you snap a photo of me? Because when a guy is in a suit, it sort of implies though he's a businessman, he's successful, whatever they want. They're watching the photo that it's it's just stuff like that that that people start getting concerned about when putting out the republic image, no doubt, no doubt. So let's shift to Okay, how do we navigate these treacherous waters um more shrewdly and you know, without being manipulative, but with with using with with an understanding of human nature, um, Chris. One principle you you harp on or you mentioned in your book is called unconditional positive regard. You mentioned it um within the context of negotiations with the terrorist group ABUSA off and UH the release of an American health hostage Jeffrey Shilling, and you described it as real change is only possible when you accept the subject where he or she is at. So another way I've heard this describe, perhaps was pacing and leading, um, where you you have to meet someone and understand where emotionally they're currently at in order to get them emotionally or or you know, in terms of any interpersonal relation where you would like them to be. Yeah, well, there's a couple of things you threw in there, and both of them are good. And I'll tell you something that we've really since the book came out, and in a number of ways that we've uped a level of our game really is genuine curiosity. Um, there's a lot more neuroscience out there even today than it was when a book came out five years ago. Uh that s. Nicholas Taleb's got a book out from several years ago called Anti Fragile, which I stumbled over recently because he says curiosity is an anti fragile mindset. Like when you're genuinely curious about the other side, an awful lot of this stuff starts to go away. The curiosity is basically a positive mindset that keeps you out of negative mindsets. When you're in a positive frame of mind, you're smarter, Like when you're genuinely curious, then you know you can take a look at the other side. You're not going to get can because when you're in a positive frame of mind, your pattern recognition comes to you more quickly, and there's the self doubt tends to go away. You can't be in a curious and being a negative mindset simultaneously. So just genuine curiosity is one of the hacks to protect yourself because then you're not emotionally invested in you're seeing things. You're far more likely to see things for the way that they are. So curiosity, just genuine curiosity, is a great approach to nearly any human vey m And I imagine that an extension of genuine curiosity, and one that you mentioned is mentioned the open ended question, which can be used, you know, a very very effectively in uh, you know what, obviously you want that to be an extension of genuine curiosity, but that open ended questions are are useful both in kind of tense you know, adversarial negotiations, but also um in order to you know, to except to optimize your personal relationships. So I appreciate the way that you studied the book. I mean, and of course you've gotten what a lot of people extendency to get out of it, Like if you really dig into the book, like you begin to see the applications for this like everywhere, which is also a great way to practice. Yeah. So yeah, it's uh, you're you're you're dead on opening the questions are really good for a whole bunch of reasons. And if you're genuinely curious and you ask opening into questions and you pull a lot of information about the other side, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I mean, hey, it's uh, guess the the only gate to that are the is how willing you are to listen and people's patients, and I know that's in short supply of these days. I don't know, Nicole, you're feeling similarly in that the this era you've been so active on social audio platforms and uh and participating in the digital space, do you feel like people's attention spans willingness to listen has been shortened a little bit? I mean, how do you know, you're you you're involved in kind of rich, extended conversations with a lot of people. I mean, how are you kind of you know, how are you maintaining some pretty um uh extending maintaining the duration of some of these conversations on some pretty you know, uh dense material. I mean I definitely noticed that, and now now that you mention it, I feel like even my own attention span has been compromised. Um. Hey, I don't know, I'm that's how I feel. I'd imagine these interviews are actually a great exercise to extend that attention span and being forced to have these deeper, extensive conversations, you know where interviewing people on their expert he's I mean, man, I imagine that that hopefully is something that builds those muscles, because without something, if you're not cognizant of it, that you can really start to get snipped. Absolutely. But the other thing is you also start to notice what you don't care about. And then I think in terms of like dating or even who you want to work with, you start you start getting a sense of you know, do I actually enjoy working with this person? Listening to this person? Like being curious about yourself is really important too, That's what That's what develops your intuition, Like do I want Chris Voss as a mentor or this other guy who also looks good on paper, but he bores me when I talked to him. His advice isn't exciting when I tell him, I don't feel like he's invested in my problem, you know what I mean. So so that's what that makes me think of. So it's also good to pay attention to like, what can you pay attention to? What can't you pay attention to the other thing with curiosity. UM, I love what Chris was saying about be curious. The only thing I would say as a woman is don't don't use curiosity as an excuse to become obsessing, because again, someone like the tinder swindler or like a con artist, you could get so curious that you're like, oh, I just want to understand him. What happened in his child? So that he's like that makes him? Let me think, we all know like sometimes women like projects, so that's something that that that made me. Yeah, you know, like this guy's under Yeah, this guy, he's under attack from international terrorist. Ooh, I guess I gotta fix this thing. Why don't I send him my entire life savings a quarter million dollars? And uh? Turn around in five minutes later, he's at a club in you know, freaking uh Montenegro with some other women. UM. So the kind of core principles of negotiation and Chris right in the title of the book, it's never split the difference, um and a lot of people, as you describe in the book, see negotiation as compromise and the two are not analogous terms. UM. One is was very much different UM. And the way that you describe it is that uh, in terms of a let's call it um validity of the demand. In your situations dealing with hostages and and and terrorists, the validity of many of their their demands had no validity in the first place. Thus giving inter meeting them halfway would not have been a reasonable compromise. Right, So in a situation like that, where with asymmetrical validity, UM, how would you suggest people going about dealing with with difficult UM tense situations where you know, where they can't where we're splitting the difference is not a reasonable option, and they have to find more creative ways to reach compromise. You know, compromise Splitting the difference is always a bad idea. It just it just always is. UM. People are very vulnerable to it, and the people that want to take advantage of you understand, and how vulnerable most people are to it. And and the people that are there to cut your throat to to really really take you to the cleaners understand. There's a vulnerability of people who want to collaborate. And you know, again the accommodating people that are really desirous of the great relationship or are enormously enormously vulnerable to this. And it takes up people a little bit to understand that genuine compromise just never works out. It just leaves leaves both sides unhappy. And you're and whether it's a personal relationship, professional relationship, you know, both sides being unhappy, it's just a bad idea. So again, it's the willingness to move on, the willing willingness to you know, say, look, this is this, this isn't working. Um, you got to be able to walk away from the table. Yeah, and and and just don't but don't walk away abruptly. I mean, any business deal, uh or personal professional relationship me or anybody in my company walks away from the other side is never surprised. I mean, we've started to let out know a little out of time. To borrow phrase from a buddy of mind, Net COLLETTI used to manage the Dodgers, you know, he likes to say, I like to let out know a little out of time. So then the other side is warned that it's coming. And if their manager that there, they've been warned then that's the sign of a predator. Somebody wants to punish you for something you've warned them as coming. When they punish you for it, that's another sign that yeah, it's it's time to get out there, that it is just time to move on. Predatory people want to make you feel guilty, oversetting a boundary, and so move on. I understand that when they trigger your guilt, that's one more confirmation that was the wrong person triggering the guilt. Yeah, when they start making allegations that you know, essentially it was a hilarious line like hey, uh, I paid back. Remember when I paid back that loan last month? Now you owe me a favor. It's like, no, guy, You've got to understand when someone's in a genuine favor when they're trying to kind of disingenuously guilt trippy, and that's that's definitely gotta be a tip off that you're in a situation where you got to get out of. I guess the question being, you know, how do you how do you manifest that when the others walk away from the table, when on the other side of the table, as someone holding a human being and someone's and their life is in your hands. Well, and in my negotiations it was we we put a limit on behavior, and you know, we we coached the negotiation in Columbia one time where they were threatening to to harm a child and we coached the mother who was in a negotiation and she said, let me be clear, I can never deal with anybody that would harm a child. And they stopped because they wanted to continue to deal. So that you know that when you're put a boundary on that, you know your first you put a boundary on their behavior, and if they don't respect the boundary on their behavior, then it's one more side the you gotta sign that you gotta get out now hostage negotiation making the other being willing Are we gonna walk away from the table, We're gonna give the impression we're ready to walk away from the table, happy to give the impression. M Absolutely, yeah, yeah. You gotta understand that even if you're dealing with some tough cookies on the other side, the fact that they're at the table means that they want to negotiate. And so you know, if you can kind of shrewdly find ways to to kind of chip away at their leverage or take a couple options off the table, without taking all the options off the table. You can use that to your benefit. And man, that's right, you got them. You got the magic chords at me. That's right. There you go. Also the magic words they so everybody. These are the gems that you will find in Chris's book. Uh, never split the difference, negotiating as if your life depended on it. Um. This was a fantastic chat. Hopefully you come away from it with a little deeper understanding of human behavior and nature and some more of the tools to avoid, uh, the fraudsters and huckster's and conment that are, unfortunately you know, all over the place these days, even if you're not. As we discussed earlier, they can sniff out the vulnerable. But there I've seen that some people try to get one over on some pretty shrewd people. And the earlier you can sniff this stuff out, the better. And one of the keys uh to that from our discussion is clearly being willing to take that early loss that at some point you have to accept that. Wait a second, if it turns if this, if I accept my gut instinct that this person is a fraud ster, then I've lost a little bit, you know, my trust or whatever I contributed to this relationship, but it's saving me from a major headaches down the road. So something to really be be cognizant of and understand what your tolerance and ability is UH to take that loss and be honest with yourself. So, Chris Nicole, if you could both let everybody know where to find you on on the internet on social media. Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, I'm at Nicole, benam v H and a M. People always get that confused. Instagram, I am and I tripped, We'll see be um and on TikTok TikTok, I'm at asked Nick and everywhere else I mean, and what about beyond oh, Beyond the Interview You can find on Instagram at Beyond the Interview That is my media platform. Fantastic And Chris, for you and the black Swan group, Yeah, the best places go just go to our website black Swan ltd dot com. We get tons of free material. You know, we got a lot of stuff to help you get better and then when you really up the level of your game, we got some really high speed negotiation training. It's available as well. The high speed negotiation training stuff we all need these days, everybody. I hope you guys found this conversation fruitful. I know I did. Watch out for those tender swindlers. Keep it just to the documentary. If if their only involvement in your life is a Netflix and chill night, you know, consider yourself lucky, but be on the lookout. Um. I'm at Bolinsky and this is the Prevailing Narrative. I am at the sky once again. You can listen and subscribe to the Prevailing Narrative on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you're listening right now. Make sure to follow me on my socials at Matt Bolinsky m A T T B I L I N s k Y. The Prevailing Narrative is a Cavalry Audio production and association with I Heart Radio, produced by Brandon Morrigan, Executive produced by Danna Bernetti and Kegan Rosenberger for Cavary Audio. I'm Matt Bolinsky