I believe in life there's no one right answer, like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others, and part of the puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer.

I believe in life there's no one right answer, like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others, and part of the puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Aj Jacobs, the author of four New York Times bestsellers, including The Know It All, Drop Dead Healthy, and the Year of Living Biblically. Aj has given four TED talks to have total views of more than ten million. He's a contributor to NPR's weekend edition and writes for The New York Times and Esquire magazine, among others. Today, AJ and Eric discuss his book The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the most baffling puzzles ever, from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Aj Jacobs, the author of four New York Times bestsellers, including The Know It All, Drop Dead Healthy, and the Year of Living Biblically. Aj has given four TED talks to have total views of more than ten million. He's a contributor to NPR's weekend edition and writes for The New York Times and Esquire magazine, among others. Today, AJ and Eric discuss his book The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the most baffling puzzles ever, from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life.

Hey, Aj, welcome back.

Hey, Aj, welcome back.

Delighted to be back. Thank you, Eric.

Delighted to be back. Thank you, Eric.

Yeah, I am really excited to have you on. As I was saying to you before the show, so far, I've been reading everything that you have written. The book that will primarily be focusing on today is called The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the most baffling puzzles ever, from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life. So we'll get to that as well as some other things in a minute. But we're going to start, like we always do, with the Parable of the Two Wolves. And you answered this not that long ago. I think we talked sometime in November, so you've had only a few months. But I'll read it and see what you think about it this time. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I am really excited to have you on. As I was saying to you before the show, so far, I've been reading everything that you have written. The book that will primarily be focusing on today is called The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the most baffling puzzles ever, from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life. So we'll get to that as well as some other things in a minute. But we're going to start, like we always do, with the Parable of the Two Wolves. And you answered this not that long ago. I think we talked sometime in November, so you've had only a few months. But I'll read it and see what you think about it this time. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I love that parable. I love that you start off every episode with it. Now I can't remember, because I have a terrible memory what I said, So this might be a repetition, and if it is, just tell me and I'll come up with something else on the spot. But what it immediately reminds me of is I wrote a book about gratitude, and in that book I have my own version of the two wolves. That version is everyone in them has two sides, the mister Rogers side and the Larry David side. And of course the Larry David side is the one that is great at finding the negative and complaining, and the mister Rogers side is the one where you're able to find gratitude, appreciation, kindness. And I was born, I believe, with a very big Larry David side. I was very good at you know, the classic. If you hear ninety nine complements and one insult, what do you focus on? And so I think the Larry David side, which we all have wired into us, is the one that draws us to that. So my book on gratitude was trying to build up the mister Rogers side, and it is exactly what your parable says. The way to make mister Rogers or the kind wolf stronger is to feed it, and you feed it with thoughts. So I would try to remember the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of the three or four that go wrong. If I'm online at the pharmacy and it's taking twenty five minutes, I just try to stop my brain from racing and put a little pause in it and say, you know, first of all, the fact that we have modern medicine in this pharmacy, that's crazy. I've done a lot of historical books, and one of the mantras I always say to myself is surgery without anesthesia. Because you read about surgery without anesthesia, and you will be grateful that you live in current times. As many problems as we had, it is still better than two hundred years ago. And I'll try to remind myself that, you know, I have this brief time on earth. I try to notice. I'll try to look around and be like, oh, you know that fluorescent light? It's interesting. Look, can you believe that someone actually invented that? And people in factories made the glass and other people shipped it with a truck, And you know, that is pretty remarkable. So that is my attempt to feed the good wolf slash mister Rogers.

I love that parable. I love that you start off every episode with it. Now I can't remember, because I have a terrible memory what I said, So this might be a repetition, and if it is, just tell me and I'll come up with something else on the spot. But what it immediately reminds me of is I wrote a book about gratitude, and in that book I have my own version of the two wolves. That version is everyone in them has two sides, the mister Rogers side and the Larry David side. And of course the Larry David side is the one that is great at finding the negative and complaining, and the mister Rogers side is the one where you're able to find gratitude, appreciation, kindness. And I was born, I believe, with a very big Larry David side. I was very good at you know, the classic. If you hear ninety nine complements and one insult, what do you focus on? And so I think the Larry David side, which we all have wired into us, is the one that draws us to that. So my book on gratitude was trying to build up the mister Rogers side, and it is exactly what your parable says. The way to make mister Rogers or the kind wolf stronger is to feed it, and you feed it with thoughts. So I would try to remember the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of the three or four that go wrong. If I'm online at the pharmacy and it's taking twenty five minutes, I just try to stop my brain from racing and put a little pause in it and say, you know, first of all, the fact that we have modern medicine in this pharmacy, that's crazy. I've done a lot of historical books, and one of the mantras I always say to myself is surgery without anesthesia. Because you read about surgery without anesthesia, and you will be grateful that you live in current times. As many problems as we had, it is still better than two hundred years ago. And I'll try to remind myself that, you know, I have this brief time on earth. I try to notice. I'll try to look around and be like, oh, you know that fluorescent light? It's interesting. Look, can you believe that someone actually invented that? And people in factories made the glass and other people shipped it with a truck, And you know, that is pretty remarkable. So that is my attempt to feed the good wolf slash mister Rogers.

So I'm curious about an element of that. You do a lot of books where you sort of embark on a particular quest for a period of time. I'm going to thank a thousand people. I'm going to live biblically for a year. I'm sure you could expand the list. There's a bunch of them. What I'm curious about is how much of what happens in those little experiments sort of sticks with you and you know, carries on into your life. So for example, like if I was very focused on just gratitude for a month, I would be very grateful for a month, right, I would get that skill down to some degree, and then as my attention turned towards all my other things, that would tend to sort of flag. So I'm curious, how do you, if you do, integrate some of the lessons that come out of your different books to make sure that they remain sort of in your life.

So I'm curious about an element of that. You do a lot of books where you sort of embark on a particular quest for a period of time. I'm going to thank a thousand people. I'm going to live biblically for a year. I'm sure you could expand the list. There's a bunch of them. What I'm curious about is how much of what happens in those little experiments sort of sticks with you and you know, carries on into your life. So for example, like if I was very focused on just gratitude for a month, I would be very grateful for a month, right, I would get that skill down to some degree, and then as my attention turned towards all my other things, that would tend to sort of flag. So I'm curious, how do you, if you do, integrate some of the lessons that come out of your different books to make sure that they remain sort of in your life.

Yeah, great question, And I do feel that I take away a handful of lessons from every project. As you say, I could never continue to live completely biblically. I shaved my beard, and I stopped stoning adulters with tiny pebbles. But it definitely each one of them has changed my life in a small or not so small way, and over all they have a profound effect. So I'll just give you some examples of takeaways that have stayed with me. First of all, following all the rules of the Bible. Again, that overlapped with the gratitude because the Bible has a lot to say about gratitude, and it kind of spawned the gratitude project in a way. The gratitude project, as you say, it's a discipline. If you don't pay attention to it, it might fade away. If you don't feed that wolf. So I have different rituals that I'm very conscious of, very intentional about. That could be when I'm going to sleep, I try to think of one thing that I'm grateful for that day related to every letter of the alphabet. So a could be I'm grateful my parents named the AJ instead of My full name is Arnold, but I like AJ, so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for I don't know Bear Grills, he's an interesting guy on TV. For b you have to work at it, but it has definitely stayed with me. The Health Book. I wrote a book about trying to be the healthiest person alive. Now, of course I can't do everything I did during the book because it was literally a twenty four hour a day job because I was trying to follow every piece of health advice from every doctor and nutritionist. And yeah, it's very stressful, which is not healthy. So that was actually one of the takeaways is don't get overly obsessed with health because stress is not healthy. But I have massive takeaways from that. I still write my emails on a treadmill desk. I still have these sort of rules of thumb, these heuristics, that stay with me. Like, if I'm going for a snack, go to the fridge, don't go to the cupboard, don't go to the pantry, because the fridge has real food, real food rots. And what's in your pantry a lot of times is it may be chemically stable, but it's not good for you. It's going to make you lethargic and fat and all those other things. So every project has given me some wisdom takeaway, but I just want to stress it's always an ongoing process. So it's not like being grateful or compassionate automatically becomes natural to me. A little bit, maybe a little bit it sinks in, but it's still a discipline. I think for any of the good stuff, you still have to work at it. You still have to make an appointment, you still have to be intentional about it.

Yeah, great question, And I do feel that I take away a handful of lessons from every project. As you say, I could never continue to live completely biblically. I shaved my beard, and I stopped stoning adulters with tiny pebbles. But it definitely each one of them has changed my life in a small or not so small way, and over all they have a profound effect. So I'll just give you some examples of takeaways that have stayed with me. First of all, following all the rules of the Bible. Again, that overlapped with the gratitude because the Bible has a lot to say about gratitude, and it kind of spawned the gratitude project in a way. The gratitude project, as you say, it's a discipline. If you don't pay attention to it, it might fade away. If you don't feed that wolf. So I have different rituals that I'm very conscious of, very intentional about. That could be when I'm going to sleep, I try to think of one thing that I'm grateful for that day related to every letter of the alphabet. So a could be I'm grateful my parents named the AJ instead of My full name is Arnold, but I like AJ, so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for I don't know Bear Grills, he's an interesting guy on TV. For b you have to work at it, but it has definitely stayed with me. The Health Book. I wrote a book about trying to be the healthiest person alive. Now, of course I can't do everything I did during the book because it was literally a twenty four hour a day job because I was trying to follow every piece of health advice from every doctor and nutritionist. And yeah, it's very stressful, which is not healthy. So that was actually one of the takeaways is don't get overly obsessed with health because stress is not healthy. But I have massive takeaways from that. I still write my emails on a treadmill desk. I still have these sort of rules of thumb, these heuristics, that stay with me. Like, if I'm going for a snack, go to the fridge, don't go to the cupboard, don't go to the pantry, because the fridge has real food, real food rots. And what's in your pantry a lot of times is it may be chemically stable, but it's not good for you. It's going to make you lethargic and fat and all those other things. So every project has given me some wisdom takeaway, but I just want to stress it's always an ongoing process. So it's not like being grateful or compassionate automatically becomes natural to me. A little bit, maybe a little bit it sinks in, but it's still a discipline. I think for any of the good stuff, you still have to work at it. You still have to make an appointment, you still have to be intentional about it.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's you know, the other part of the parable is that basic idea that we just have to keep sort of choosing again and again and again and again what direction do we want to go, what's important to us, who's the person we want to be?

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's you know, the other part of the parable is that basic idea that we just have to keep sort of choosing again and again and again and again what direction do we want to go, what's important to us, who's the person we want to be?

Absolutely? Yeah. And the other thing about the parable that I think is interesting is in a sense you're saying it depends on whom you feed, and feeding is actually a very active process. You are actually choosing to give food to that wolf. And that is one of the themes that I have seen recurring through all of my projects, which is action behavior is very powerful. And I think we talked about this last time, but I love the idea of it's not just thoughts that change your behavior. You can change your thoughts by changing your behavior. And I might have quoted this. I wish that I came up with this quote myself. There's a big debate on the internet who came up with it, but it's a wonderful quote. It says it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. And I find this so often, even with gratitude, just forcing myself to thank people, even if I'm in a grumpy mood. You do it enough and it sort of tricks your mind and your mind catches up. And there's tons of science behind it. It's the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy. So it's ancient wisdom but also so huge evidence behind it.

Absolutely? Yeah. And the other thing about the parable that I think is interesting is in a sense you're saying it depends on whom you feed, and feeding is actually a very active process. You are actually choosing to give food to that wolf. And that is one of the themes that I have seen recurring through all of my projects, which is action behavior is very powerful. And I think we talked about this last time, but I love the idea of it's not just thoughts that change your behavior. You can change your thoughts by changing your behavior. And I might have quoted this. I wish that I came up with this quote myself. There's a big debate on the internet who came up with it, but it's a wonderful quote. It says it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. And I find this so often, even with gratitude, just forcing myself to thank people, even if I'm in a grumpy mood. You do it enough and it sort of tricks your mind and your mind catches up. And there's tons of science behind it. It's the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy. So it's ancient wisdom but also so huge evidence behind it.

Yeah, it may be the phrase I've used the most on this show over the years, and I heard it very early in recovery. The idea was very sound, which was basically, your brain is just going to be thinking about Heroin all the time. I mean, that's just what it's going to do. That's what it's wired to do. That's chemically what's going to happen. Like you may not be able to turn that off right now, right right, but here are the actions. Do these five things every day. Do these things you know, and over time, if you do that, then the thinking will come along. And so it was a huge lesson for me that was critically important in recovery, but turns out to be great advice for everything in life.

Yeah, it may be the phrase I've used the most on this show over the years, and I heard it very early in recovery. The idea was very sound, which was basically, your brain is just going to be thinking about Heroin all the time. I mean, that's just what it's going to do. That's what it's wired to do. That's chemically what's going to happen. Like you may not be able to turn that off right now, right right, but here are the actions. Do these five things every day. Do these things you know, and over time, if you do that, then the thinking will come along. And so it was a huge lesson for me that was critically important in recovery, but turns out to be great advice for everything in life.

I love that because, yeah, I'm not in recovery, so i don't know so much about it, but I'm fascinated and delighted that this is also powerful in recovery. I guess it covers every part of life.

I love that because, yeah, I'm not in recovery, so i don't know so much about it, but I'm fascinated and delighted that this is also powerful in recovery. I guess it covers every part of life.

Yeah, So, speaking of potential addictions, I've got to know whether you are up at four in the morning doing the spelling Bee this morning.

Yeah, So, speaking of potential addictions, I've got to know whether you are up at four in the morning doing the spelling Bee this morning.

It is true I do have an addiction. It's not good. I think any addiction is not good. But as far as addictions go, this one is perhaps one of the less dangerous ones. And I'm addicted to puzzles. I am addicted to puzzle. And one of the puzzles that I am addicted to is called the spelling Bee, and it appears on the New York Times website cruelly at four am or at three am. I believe. I don't know why they do that, but every day there's a new one. And every day when I wake up in the middle of the night too go to the restroom, I'm like, well, I really should not check the new puzzle, but I really want to as well, so I do. And it's just it is not healthy. But puzzles give me so much joy, and I'm happy to talk about why and why. I think they're a force for good. Despite the potential for addiction, I do think overall puzzles are a force for good.

It is true I do have an addiction. It's not good. I think any addiction is not good. But as far as addictions go, this one is perhaps one of the less dangerous ones. And I'm addicted to puzzles. I am addicted to puzzle. And one of the puzzles that I am addicted to is called the spelling Bee, and it appears on the New York Times website cruelly at four am or at three am. I believe. I don't know why they do that, but every day there's a new one. And every day when I wake up in the middle of the night too go to the restroom, I'm like, well, I really should not check the new puzzle, but I really want to as well, so I do. And it's just it is not healthy. But puzzles give me so much joy, and I'm happy to talk about why and why. I think they're a force for good. Despite the potential for addiction, I do think overall puzzles are a force for good.

Yeah, that is a good puzzle. That's the kind of puzzle that I can really solve, And so I like it.

Yeah, that is a good puzzle. That's the kind of puzzle that I can really solve, And so I like it.

Do you do it every day?

Do you do it every day?

No?

No?

You know, I did it every day for a while, and then I'm not a hardcore puzzler. It just isn't for whatever reason in my nature. But yes, for a while, I was doing it every day. I was not waking up at four am to check it. I suppose they're trying to get the London crowd in the morning, right, which is why they're doing that. It would be gas right. I love that, you know, yeah so, but still not so good for their core readership in New York.

You know, I did it every day for a while, and then I'm not a hardcore puzzler. It just isn't for whatever reason in my nature. But yes, for a while, I was doing it every day. I was not waking up at four am to check it. I suppose they're trying to get the London crowd in the morning, right, which is why they're doing that. It would be gas right. I love that, you know, yeah so, but still not so good for their core readership in New York.

That's right. So I appreciate them trying, but please, next time, just save it till eight.

That's right. So I appreciate them trying, but please, next time, just save it till eight.

So I'm going to give you a puzzle for us to go into.

So I'm going to give you a puzzle for us to go into.

I love it.

I love it.

Now. This may not be an actual puzzle, I don't know. It's maybe a question, but I'm framing it as a puzzle to get your attention. So it is this. What does living biblically, tackling the toughest puzzles, and gratitude have in common?

Now. This may not be an actual puzzle, I don't know. It's maybe a question, but I'm framing it as a puzzle to get your attention. So it is this. What does living biblically, tackling the toughest puzzles, and gratitude have in common?

Well, I love that quzz. I have a few answers. One I've written books about all of them. Maybe not the best answer, Okay. I think that a lot of it has to do with my quest for self improvement and that I feel I'm quite a fixer upper and I can always use help in getting better, and as we talked about, it's a process, I don't feel i'm anywhere near perfect, But I think just having the quest. I love having a quest, and sometimes the quests are admittedly a little silly, but I just think the activity of having a quest is one as humans we're built for, and I think we're built for puzzles in the biggest sense of the world. The first puzzle was how do I eat? What do I eat? Who do I meet with? Those are big puzzles, and that is why I think many of us are sort of drawn to these smaller puzzles, but which are good training for the big puzzles?

Well, I love that quzz. I have a few answers. One I've written books about all of them. Maybe not the best answer, Okay. I think that a lot of it has to do with my quest for self improvement and that I feel I'm quite a fixer upper and I can always use help in getting better, and as we talked about, it's a process, I don't feel i'm anywhere near perfect, But I think just having the quest. I love having a quest, and sometimes the quests are admittedly a little silly, but I just think the activity of having a quest is one as humans we're built for, and I think we're built for puzzles in the biggest sense of the world. The first puzzle was how do I eat? What do I eat? Who do I meet with? Those are big puzzles, and that is why I think many of us are sort of drawn to these smaller puzzles, but which are good training for the big puzzles?

Good answer, how did I do?

Good answer, how did I do?

Did you have a better answer?

Did you have a better answer?

Past? No, I had no answer. I had no answer. I just figured they were three things you've written about, and I wanted to see how you were going to time together. And we're going to get to puzzles in a second, I promise. But what you just said about quest made me think of something that you wrote for Men's Health magazine sometime I think late last year, and the title of the article is the life changing power of chasing absurd fitness goals, and in it, well, why don't you tell us what the goal is or what the quest is? In that one?

Past? No, I had no answer. I had no answer. I just figured they were three things you've written about, and I wanted to see how you were going to time together. And we're going to get to puzzles in a second, I promise. But what you just said about quest made me think of something that you wrote for Men's Health magazine sometime I think late last year, and the title of the article is the life changing power of chasing absurd fitness goals, and in it, well, why don't you tell us what the goal is or what the quest is? In that one?

Sure? Since I wrote a book on health. I've always been a fan of the treadmill desk, so putting my laptop on, I just have a little Jerry rigged system that I do myself, and I type emails while walking. But walking ten thousand steps a day was fine, but it kind of got a little boring, so I thought, let me try a new one. And I noticed I walk on the treadmill at an incline, like a twelve degree incline, and my treadmill keeps track of how many vertical feet I walk every day. And I said, oh, well, that's novel and interesting. And I figured I walked about eight hundred vertical feet a day, which is about the height of the Eiffel Tower. And I thought, well, what if I just kept track and spent the year trying to walk as high as I can? Could I walk to space? Could I be like Neil Armstrong? And I figured yes, because space officially begins about three hundred and thirty thousand feet above Earth, so in a year, I would walk about to space. It made me laugh because, as you say, it's such an absurd quest, but it stuck with me, and I put it on Facebook and I said, I'm going to walk to space. And what I loved is that there were thirty forty people who also said that is a great idea. I want to walk to space too, So we became a community of space walkers and we kept track on Facebook. You know, I'm up at the height of hot air balloon. Oh, I'm you know where falcons fly? And it was just Kilimanjaro. And it was just a blast and an interesting way to form a community. And like it said in the headline, there is something wonderful about having this absurd goal, whether or not you reach it. Just the idea of having something that you wake up every morning and I'm walking to space. That is interesting. Let me keep going. And one of the psychologists I talked to about this had a good point. He talked about sort of man's humans need for putting meaning on quests. So saying I'm going to walk to three hundred and thirty thousand feet that is much less appealing than saying I'm going to walk to space. The space part gives it a meaning, it gives it a reference, a context. So that has been fun. I've walked about four hundred vertical feet today and I've still got a ways to go.

Sure? Since I wrote a book on health. I've always been a fan of the treadmill desk, so putting my laptop on, I just have a little Jerry rigged system that I do myself, and I type emails while walking. But walking ten thousand steps a day was fine, but it kind of got a little boring, so I thought, let me try a new one. And I noticed I walk on the treadmill at an incline, like a twelve degree incline, and my treadmill keeps track of how many vertical feet I walk every day. And I said, oh, well, that's novel and interesting. And I figured I walked about eight hundred vertical feet a day, which is about the height of the Eiffel Tower. And I thought, well, what if I just kept track and spent the year trying to walk as high as I can? Could I walk to space? Could I be like Neil Armstrong? And I figured yes, because space officially begins about three hundred and thirty thousand feet above Earth, so in a year, I would walk about to space. It made me laugh because, as you say, it's such an absurd quest, but it stuck with me, and I put it on Facebook and I said, I'm going to walk to space. And what I loved is that there were thirty forty people who also said that is a great idea. I want to walk to space too, So we became a community of space walkers and we kept track on Facebook. You know, I'm up at the height of hot air balloon. Oh, I'm you know where falcons fly? And it was just Kilimanjaro. And it was just a blast and an interesting way to form a community. And like it said in the headline, there is something wonderful about having this absurd goal, whether or not you reach it. Just the idea of having something that you wake up every morning and I'm walking to space. That is interesting. Let me keep going. And one of the psychologists I talked to about this had a good point. He talked about sort of man's humans need for putting meaning on quests. So saying I'm going to walk to three hundred and thirty thousand feet that is much less appealing than saying I'm going to walk to space. The space part gives it a meaning, it gives it a reference, a context. So that has been fun. I've walked about four hundred vertical feet today and I've still got a ways to go.

Yeah. I love that, And it brought up in me some questions because what I do with a lot of people that I've done work with and in my Spiritual Habits program and all that is talk about the value of really small steps, like not taking on too much right, because we often come out of the gate too hot, right, and we're gonna suddenly work out for two hours a day and we're going to start writing in our journal and we're going to take up painting, and we fail. I wanted to think a little bit about what you're saying because I recognize instantly in a truth like yeah, of course, like a quest like that, what a great thing. We'll see people who say I'm going to train for a marathon. It orients their training. And then there's also the small step piece. And what I thought a little bit about was that what you're talking about is an accumulation goal. Yes, And the nature of an accumulation goal is a good one because it's not a pass fail. It's not I'm going to work out six days a week and when I only work out four, I give up because I failed. You can't fail. You could not hit the goal as quickly you wanted to, but the accumulation goal continues to add up. It's like with sobriety. You know, in sobriety, abstinence has been the thing that everybody's aimed for forever. And there are very good reasons for that, right because if you can't get to abstinence, you may not get rid of the psychological craving, which is torture. Right, So abstinence has a place. But the grading ourselves at either zero percent or one hundred percent, I think is really detrimental.

Yeah. I love that, And it brought up in me some questions because what I do with a lot of people that I've done work with and in my Spiritual Habits program and all that is talk about the value of really small steps, like not taking on too much right, because we often come out of the gate too hot, right, and we're gonna suddenly work out for two hours a day and we're going to start writing in our journal and we're going to take up painting, and we fail. I wanted to think a little bit about what you're saying because I recognize instantly in a truth like yeah, of course, like a quest like that, what a great thing. We'll see people who say I'm going to train for a marathon. It orients their training. And then there's also the small step piece. And what I thought a little bit about was that what you're talking about is an accumulation goal. Yes, And the nature of an accumulation goal is a good one because it's not a pass fail. It's not I'm going to work out six days a week and when I only work out four, I give up because I failed. You can't fail. You could not hit the goal as quickly you wanted to, but the accumulation goal continues to add up. It's like with sobriety. You know, in sobriety, abstinence has been the thing that everybody's aimed for forever. And there are very good reasons for that, right because if you can't get to abstinence, you may not get rid of the psychological craving, which is torture. Right, So abstinence has a place. But the grading ourselves at either zero percent or one hundred percent, I think is really detrimental.

Ah.

Ah.

I've got a client who every day that she's sober, she puts a marble in a jar. You know, she wasn't able to get to you know, one hundred percent sobriety all the time, but we're able to look at over a month, a year, two years, like, I mean, there are a ton of marbles in that jar, and so it's allowed her to really see progress and feel progress. And that's kind of what your space goal was. When I thought about it, I was like, oh, this is an accumulation goal that is done by a series of daily walks.

I've got a client who every day that she's sober, she puts a marble in a jar. You know, she wasn't able to get to you know, one hundred percent sobriety all the time, but we're able to look at over a month, a year, two years, like, I mean, there are a ton of marbles in that jar, and so it's allowed her to really see progress and feel progress. And that's kind of what your space goal was. When I thought about it, I was like, oh, this is an accumulation goal that is done by a series of daily walks.

There's a couple of things I want to dig into because I just love what you said. First, I love the idea. Yes, I agree, goals should not be all or nothing. I love the quote most of life is not an on off switch, it's a dimmer And so this goal walking to space, yes it's a goal, but there's so many sub goals along the way, you know, walking, I've walked to the top of Everest. I've walked to the top of five everests, and so it's fun. Like you said, that's very much like the chips or the marbles. The second part I loved is that I am also a huge fan of micro goals and step by step. So it's an interesting balance between having these big, crazy, wild goals and the more everyday goal of just doing one small thing. And actually I use micro goals all the time, including to get on the treadmill, right, because if I said I have to walk one thousand vertical feet today, that would not be motivating. Instead, I say to myself, all right, I'm just going to put on my sneakers. I'm not going to guarantee anything after that. I put them on, and I've got a little momentum and I say, okay, well, you know what, I'm going to get on the treadmill, maybe walk for thirty seconds. I'm not going to promise myself anything more than that. You're on the treadmill, You're like, all right, I'm here. I can make it to five to ten minutes. And it's the same with writing. I mean, thank god, I don't have to sit down every morning and say I'm going to write a book because I would be paralyzed, right, So instead I say today, I'm going to write a third of this section on say, you know I have a section on pencils. I'm going to write one third of the section on pencils today. That is my goal, and that allows me to continue as opposed to the big scary goal. But eventually I know my goal. My ultimate goal is to write a book.

There's a couple of things I want to dig into because I just love what you said. First, I love the idea. Yes, I agree, goals should not be all or nothing. I love the quote most of life is not an on off switch, it's a dimmer And so this goal walking to space, yes it's a goal, but there's so many sub goals along the way, you know, walking, I've walked to the top of Everest. I've walked to the top of five everests, and so it's fun. Like you said, that's very much like the chips or the marbles. The second part I loved is that I am also a huge fan of micro goals and step by step. So it's an interesting balance between having these big, crazy, wild goals and the more everyday goal of just doing one small thing. And actually I use micro goals all the time, including to get on the treadmill, right, because if I said I have to walk one thousand vertical feet today, that would not be motivating. Instead, I say to myself, all right, I'm just going to put on my sneakers. I'm not going to guarantee anything after that. I put them on, and I've got a little momentum and I say, okay, well, you know what, I'm going to get on the treadmill, maybe walk for thirty seconds. I'm not going to promise myself anything more than that. You're on the treadmill, You're like, all right, I'm here. I can make it to five to ten minutes. And it's the same with writing. I mean, thank god, I don't have to sit down every morning and say I'm going to write a book because I would be paralyzed, right, So instead I say today, I'm going to write a third of this section on say, you know I have a section on pencils. I'm going to write one third of the section on pencils today. That is my goal, and that allows me to continue as opposed to the big scary goal. But eventually I know my goal. My ultimate goal is to write a book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm working on a book two and it's new for me, so I'm a new writer. So for me, I'm not even at the point where I can say today I'm going to write X, because I have no sense of how long X takes.

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm working on a book two and it's new for me, so I'm a new writer. So for me, I'm not even at the point where I can say today I'm going to write X, because I have no sense of how long X takes.

Right.

Right.

So I always think it's interesting to think about how we measure things. Right, So for me, the thing that feels important to measure right now is just effort. Did I sit down and write for an hour and just like you, I often have to ease my way into that, like just sit down and just put your fingers on the keyboard. Yeah right, Like, okay, get started five minutes and you can quit right then. I usually get to my ninety minute goal. But it's interesting because knowing what to measure it can be really important because if I was trying to measure, I mean, I'm actually in a book proposal phase, so you know, write you know, four chapter summaries, that could be a real way to set myself up to fail because I'm not experienced enough to know what I'm capable of. Yet. You, on the other hand, have been doing this a long time. You're probably a little bit better able to say, all right, this is what I think I can get done in a writing block and have it be a little bit more accurate. So, you know, when working with clients or for listeners listening to this, I think it's really important to ask yourself, like what am I measuring in how because it makes a real difference.

So I always think it's interesting to think about how we measure things. Right, So for me, the thing that feels important to measure right now is just effort. Did I sit down and write for an hour and just like you, I often have to ease my way into that, like just sit down and just put your fingers on the keyboard. Yeah right, Like, okay, get started five minutes and you can quit right then. I usually get to my ninety minute goal. But it's interesting because knowing what to measure it can be really important because if I was trying to measure, I mean, I'm actually in a book proposal phase, so you know, write you know, four chapter summaries, that could be a real way to set myself up to fail because I'm not experienced enough to know what I'm capable of. Yet. You, on the other hand, have been doing this a long time. You're probably a little bit better able to say, all right, this is what I think I can get done in a writing block and have it be a little bit more accurate. So, you know, when working with clients or for listeners listening to this, I think it's really important to ask yourself, like what am I measuring in how because it makes a real difference.

Yeah, I love that. Well. First of all, I'm very excited for your book. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. Second, I do that same thing. Sometimes my goal will not be I'm going to write a third of the pencil section. Instead, it's I am going to spend twenty five minutes just trying to write something, and sometimes it's just nothing's coming to me. So I'll write about the pigeon bopping its head outside the windowsill, and just the feeling of pushing the keys and getting a little momentum gives me a little more courage to keep going and eventually write something. But that's also a very important strategy I have to myself, is I say, I am a kind of writer who it takes a while to warm up. So I try to block out two hours to write, and I tell myself, you know, the first thirty minutes of what you write is probably going to be crap. It's going to be unusable, and that's okay, that's part of the process. Don't freak out. And that is very reassuring because then if I'm not typing something masterful in the first three minutes, I'm like, I knew this was going to happen. Just keep going, It'll get there.

Yeah, I love that. Well. First of all, I'm very excited for your book. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. Second, I do that same thing. Sometimes my goal will not be I'm going to write a third of the pencil section. Instead, it's I am going to spend twenty five minutes just trying to write something, and sometimes it's just nothing's coming to me. So I'll write about the pigeon bopping its head outside the windowsill, and just the feeling of pushing the keys and getting a little momentum gives me a little more courage to keep going and eventually write something. But that's also a very important strategy I have to myself, is I say, I am a kind of writer who it takes a while to warm up. So I try to block out two hours to write, and I tell myself, you know, the first thirty minutes of what you write is probably going to be crap. It's going to be unusable, and that's okay, that's part of the process. Don't freak out. And that is very reassuring because then if I'm not typing something masterful in the first three minutes, I'm like, I knew this was going to happen. Just keep going, It'll get there.

Yeah, yep. It's that lead with the action, the thought will follow right right. It's getting started, which is I think oftentimes at least eighty percent of the battle is getting started. Oh yeah, just getting started it doesn't always get you through.

Yeah, yep. It's that lead with the action, the thought will follow right right. It's getting started, which is I think oftentimes at least eighty percent of the battle is getting started. Oh yeah, just getting started it doesn't always get you through.

Right.

Right.

Then you have to learn to sort of stay in it sometimes right, which is often just a variation on that right, at least for me, which is like, just keep going right, five more minutes, you know, just stay with it five more minutes, whether it be on the peloton or writing or preparing a talk or anything that feels difficult. Yeah, there's a desire to be like, get me out of here.

Then you have to learn to sort of stay in it sometimes right, which is often just a variation on that right, at least for me, which is like, just keep going right, five more minutes, you know, just stay with it five more minutes, whether it be on the peloton or writing or preparing a talk or anything that feels difficult. Yeah, there's a desire to be like, get me out of here.

I agree, And that's why micro goals I think are so helpful for just getting started.

I agree, And that's why micro goals I think are so helpful for just getting started.

Yep, I did read.

Yep, I did read.

About I think it was Hemingway who had a good strategy. I don't use it, but in case it's helpful to any of your listeners or to you. He would at the end of the day when he stopped writing, he would stop before the last sentence that he had written. You might have heard of this, but he would have the last sentence in his mind, and that way, when he picked up the next day, he would be like, all right, I'm not starting from scratch. I know the next sentence. Yeah, And then that would give him a little momentum.

About I think it was Hemingway who had a good strategy. I don't use it, but in case it's helpful to any of your listeners or to you. He would at the end of the day when he stopped writing, he would stop before the last sentence that he had written. You might have heard of this, but he would have the last sentence in his mind, and that way, when he picked up the next day, he would be like, all right, I'm not starting from scratch. I know the next sentence. Yeah, And then that would give him a little momentum.

That's a great one. Okay, puzzles, I'm actually going to get finally two puzzles. And you pose a question early in the book, are puzzles inn addictive peril or a crucial mind sharpened tools? Did you come to a conclusion.

That's a great one. Okay, puzzles, I'm actually going to get finally two puzzles. And you pose a question early in the book, are puzzles inn addictive peril or a crucial mind sharpened tools? Did you come to a conclusion.

Well, my bias, as you might suspect, is I am very pro puzzle. So I mean, of course everything is a tool and can be abused, but in my opinion, puzzles are mostly a force for good. And I love that puzzle that you posted earlier because you said I don't know if it's a puzzle, like what is the connection between But to me, I am very liberal in what I consider a puzzle. And one of my favorite quotes is from Quincy Jones, the musician, because he's been known to say his life philosophy is I don't have problems. I have puzzles. And I love that because the word problem is very intimidating and very negative. It implies maybe there is no solution, whereas a puzzle is very inviting and it's like I'm going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to solve this puzzle. And so I do try to see you know, I'm having a conflict with my wife. All Right, this is a puzzle. Let's see if I can make this marriage work better. That's the puzzle. If I'm you know, struggling to figure out what my book is, it's not a problem. It's a puzzle. Let's solve this puzzle. So to me, it's just a very motivating frame of a way to look at life.

Well, my bias, as you might suspect, is I am very pro puzzle. So I mean, of course everything is a tool and can be abused, but in my opinion, puzzles are mostly a force for good. And I love that puzzle that you posted earlier because you said I don't know if it's a puzzle, like what is the connection between But to me, I am very liberal in what I consider a puzzle. And one of my favorite quotes is from Quincy Jones, the musician, because he's been known to say his life philosophy is I don't have problems. I have puzzles. And I love that because the word problem is very intimidating and very negative. It implies maybe there is no solution, whereas a puzzle is very inviting and it's like I'm going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to solve this puzzle. And so I do try to see you know, I'm having a conflict with my wife. All Right, this is a puzzle. Let's see if I can make this marriage work better. That's the puzzle. If I'm you know, struggling to figure out what my book is, it's not a problem. It's a puzzle. Let's solve this puzzle. So to me, it's just a very motivating frame of a way to look at life.

I love that quote. I was actually going to ask you what's the difference between a problem and a puzzle? And when you were talking, it just reminded me of something that I often say to clients, which is, this is just a puzzle for us to figure out, because what I'm trying to get from is an orientation around I'm bad or I'm not the kind of person who can stick with things, or I'm lazy, or I'm like, we just haven't cracked the puzzle yet.

I love that quote. I was actually going to ask you what's the difference between a problem and a puzzle? And when you were talking, it just reminded me of something that I often say to clients, which is, this is just a puzzle for us to figure out, because what I'm trying to get from is an orientation around I'm bad or I'm not the kind of person who can stick with things, or I'm lazy, or I'm like, we just haven't cracked the puzzle yet.

I love that you yeah, of how.

I love that you yeah, of how.

You make this work. Actually, until you just said that, I hadn't even equated that, even after reading an entire book of yours on puzzles. So that's puzzling.

You make this work. Actually, until you just said that, I hadn't even equated that, even after reading an entire book of yours on puzzles. So that's puzzling.

That's stupid.

That's stupid.

I know, I couldn't resist.

I know, I couldn't resist.

Listen, I am not going to critique. I'm a fan. Anytime you want to say that. Well. One of my favorite quotes also that I mentioned in the book is I heard it from a child psychologist who is giving a lecture on how to raise kids during the pandemic, and he said, don't get furious, get curious. And I love a good rhyming piece of advice.

Listen, I am not going to critique. I'm a fan. Anytime you want to say that. Well. One of my favorite quotes also that I mentioned in the book is I heard it from a child psychologist who is giving a lecture on how to raise kids during the pandemic, and he said, don't get furious, get curious. And I love a good rhyming piece of advice.

Yes, rhyme's good, they don't always work.

Yes, rhyme's good, they don't always work.

But this one, I believe is very true and profound, and he was just using it for child rearing. You know, if your kid is throwing a tantrum, don't get angry at them, trying to figure out what's the puzzle, why are they doing it? How can we stop it from happening in the future. But I apply it to everything. So it's so easy to get angry these days. That seems to be sort of a favorite emotion. And I understand because I'll read the newspaper or the media and I'll get angry, or if I'm in a conversation with someone from the other side of the political spectrum, my default is to get angry, why do you think that? But instead I find it much more productive to say, all right, this is a puzzle. Let's get curious. Why do you believe what you believe. Why do I believe what I believe? Is there any evidence that could change one of our minds? Where do we go from here? Even if we continue to disagree, that is going to be much more productive than trying to berate them or get berated, which is just going to polarize both of us and make us more entrenched in our position and unhappy. I mean, I find being angry to be an unpleasant emotion. So if I can reframe it as a curious puzzle that has a positive solution, then I'm going to be much happier in any conversation I have.

But this one, I believe is very true and profound, and he was just using it for child rearing. You know, if your kid is throwing a tantrum, don't get angry at them, trying to figure out what's the puzzle, why are they doing it? How can we stop it from happening in the future. But I apply it to everything. So it's so easy to get angry these days. That seems to be sort of a favorite emotion. And I understand because I'll read the newspaper or the media and I'll get angry, or if I'm in a conversation with someone from the other side of the political spectrum, my default is to get angry, why do you think that? But instead I find it much more productive to say, all right, this is a puzzle. Let's get curious. Why do you believe what you believe. Why do I believe what I believe? Is there any evidence that could change one of our minds? Where do we go from here? Even if we continue to disagree, that is going to be much more productive than trying to berate them or get berated, which is just going to polarize both of us and make us more entrenched in our position and unhappy. I mean, I find being angry to be an unpleasant emotion. So if I can reframe it as a curious puzzle that has a positive solution, then I'm going to be much happier in any conversation I have.

Yeah, it makes me think of I think this is from a book called Crucial Conversations, which is a really great book about how to communicate that And I feel like the question posed in there is what would have to be going on in someone's mind for a well meaning person to act this way? And so now you've created a puzzle for yourself, right, You've created that curiosity? Well why? And It's partially what I've always loved about the Buddhist framing of the world in that recognizing that you know the commonality that we all have as every creature wants to avoid pain, and experience more pleasure. It is universal at the bottom line, underneath all of it, that is what we all want. We all have it in common. So if you start from there, then you can become curious about all right, that's what this person's trying to achieve. Now they're going about it in this way. Why would they go about it that way? Why are they picking that strategy? For me, it's always a way of like you're saying, it's a way of getting curious.

Yeah, it makes me think of I think this is from a book called Crucial Conversations, which is a really great book about how to communicate that And I feel like the question posed in there is what would have to be going on in someone's mind for a well meaning person to act this way? And so now you've created a puzzle for yourself, right, You've created that curiosity? Well why? And It's partially what I've always loved about the Buddhist framing of the world in that recognizing that you know the commonality that we all have as every creature wants to avoid pain, and experience more pleasure. It is universal at the bottom line, underneath all of it, that is what we all want. We all have it in common. So if you start from there, then you can become curious about all right, that's what this person's trying to achieve. Now they're going about it in this way. Why would they go about it that way? Why are they picking that strategy? For me, it's always a way of like you're saying, it's a way of getting curious.

I love that, and I also love the idea that as different as people are, they can still get in each other's minds. Yes, and you know, I think that we are all humans and we all can understand the desire to be happy, are to be fulfilled, to help others, and the dislike and the horribleness of pain. So yeah, I think it's a great way to remind ourselves what we have in common as well.

I love that, and I also love the idea that as different as people are, they can still get in each other's minds. Yes, and you know, I think that we are all humans and we all can understand the desire to be happy, are to be fulfilled, to help others, and the dislike and the horribleness of pain. So yeah, I think it's a great way to remind ourselves what we have in common as well.

Hey everyone, this is Jinny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots so much at the time. So to help with that, we've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one ufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.

Hey everyone, this is Jinny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots so much at the time. So to help with that, we've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one ufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.

So I think the answer to your question about whether puzzles are a addictive parallel or a crucial mind sharpening tool is, of course, it's just in how we use them, right, I mean nearly anything. I mean even a substance like alcohol. There's plenty of arguments for the good that it does, and there's plenty of arguments for the awful that it does. You know, when I say the good that it does, the benefits it brings people, right, the enjoyment that it brings people. So I want to jump ahead to a section that you wrote about the Rubik's Cube puzzle, and I'm just going to read what you wrote because I think it gets to some of what we're talking about here, which is this brings up a big question I've been wrestling with for years. How many of life's messy problems could we solve like a Rubik's cube or a pizza recipe. Are there step by step algorithms to happiness and success? I desperately want there to be right. I've always been a sucker for tools like one, two, three magic that give you the recipe for raising kids, or articles like ten Steps to Beating Depression.

So I think the answer to your question about whether puzzles are a addictive parallel or a crucial mind sharpening tool is, of course, it's just in how we use them, right, I mean nearly anything. I mean even a substance like alcohol. There's plenty of arguments for the good that it does, and there's plenty of arguments for the awful that it does. You know, when I say the good that it does, the benefits it brings people, right, the enjoyment that it brings people. So I want to jump ahead to a section that you wrote about the Rubik's Cube puzzle, and I'm just going to read what you wrote because I think it gets to some of what we're talking about here, which is this brings up a big question I've been wrestling with for years. How many of life's messy problems could we solve like a Rubik's cube or a pizza recipe. Are there step by step algorithms to happiness and success? I desperately want there to be right. I've always been a sucker for tools like one, two, three magic that give you the recipe for raising kids, or articles like ten Steps to Beating Depression.

Yes, that's action. Just to give some quick background, I love all kinds of puzzles, but my true first love is crossword and word puzzles. And I'm not very good at Rubik's Cubes. But Rubi's Cubes are perhaps the best selling toy of all time or puzzle of all time. Four hundred million people have bought a Rubik's Cube, and I interviewed some of these Rubik's Cube fanatics, including this hilarious guy named Jeff Barvanos, who was one of the first Rubik's Cube champions way back in nineteen eighty one, I believe, early eighties, and he won one of the very first tournaments. And he won, as all Rubik's Cube champions do with a series of algorithms, which is a series of steps. So if the Rubik's cube has you know, eight reds and one green, then you do this series of steps and he will get all red. Now, he did not go on to devote his life solely to Ruby's Cubes. Instead, he became one of the great pizza chefs in all the world. And he actually wrote a manifesto which he says was the number one pizza recipe on the Internet for many years, maybe it still is. And it's how to make the Perfect Pizza. And it is hilarious because it's not short. It's like forty five pages, and it is like the most detailed thing you can imagine because he tests did everything. He tried forty five different types of oregano, He let the dough sit for five minutes, for eight and a half minutes, for eleven minutes, and so he has through experimentation, figured out what he believes is the ultimate piece of pizza. And his argument is everything in life can be this, whether it's a marriage, whether it's dancing, whether it's your career, there is a step by step way. Now my feeling is there are ways to improve our lives that involve step by step a lot of them, a lot more than people realize. But I'm also a little skeptical that everything can be boiled down to a step by step routine. But I will say I think I do a lot in my own life where I have built up a step by step routine that makes me happy. And just to give you one example that popped into my head is I have a little card of everything that I want to do every morning, like my morning ritual. And I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff on to do lists, and those are really helpful. I mean, there's a very popular book a few years ago. So this is my morning to do list, and I find it very conducive to my happiness. So it's got the regular brush your teeth, but it's also got and send the note to my mom on what I'm grateful for that day. But it's also got some mental stuff. I wrote down Memento mori, which means remember death, which is a classic Stoics did it way back in ancient Greece, to remind yourself life is fleeting, try not to get stuck on the small stuff. I even, and this might be a little more of it for some of your listeners. I even on my computer, I have a rotating series of photos. Ninety five percent of them are my family and happiest memories, but five percent of them are actually friends who I've lost. Cost just to remind myself, you know, I lost friends. First of all, it's nice to remember them, but secondly, I like to remind myself that could be me, that could be me any day now.

Yes, that's action. Just to give some quick background, I love all kinds of puzzles, but my true first love is crossword and word puzzles. And I'm not very good at Rubik's Cubes. But Rubi's Cubes are perhaps the best selling toy of all time or puzzle of all time. Four hundred million people have bought a Rubik's Cube, and I interviewed some of these Rubik's Cube fanatics, including this hilarious guy named Jeff Barvanos, who was one of the first Rubik's Cube champions way back in nineteen eighty one, I believe, early eighties, and he won one of the very first tournaments. And he won, as all Rubik's Cube champions do with a series of algorithms, which is a series of steps. So if the Rubik's cube has you know, eight reds and one green, then you do this series of steps and he will get all red. Now, he did not go on to devote his life solely to Ruby's Cubes. Instead, he became one of the great pizza chefs in all the world. And he actually wrote a manifesto which he says was the number one pizza recipe on the Internet for many years, maybe it still is. And it's how to make the Perfect Pizza. And it is hilarious because it's not short. It's like forty five pages, and it is like the most detailed thing you can imagine because he tests did everything. He tried forty five different types of oregano, He let the dough sit for five minutes, for eight and a half minutes, for eleven minutes, and so he has through experimentation, figured out what he believes is the ultimate piece of pizza. And his argument is everything in life can be this, whether it's a marriage, whether it's dancing, whether it's your career, there is a step by step way. Now my feeling is there are ways to improve our lives that involve step by step a lot of them, a lot more than people realize. But I'm also a little skeptical that everything can be boiled down to a step by step routine. But I will say I think I do a lot in my own life where I have built up a step by step routine that makes me happy. And just to give you one example that popped into my head is I have a little card of everything that I want to do every morning, like my morning ritual. And I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff on to do lists, and those are really helpful. I mean, there's a very popular book a few years ago. So this is my morning to do list, and I find it very conducive to my happiness. So it's got the regular brush your teeth, but it's also got and send the note to my mom on what I'm grateful for that day. But it's also got some mental stuff. I wrote down Memento mori, which means remember death, which is a classic Stoics did it way back in ancient Greece, to remind yourself life is fleeting, try not to get stuck on the small stuff. I even, and this might be a little more of it for some of your listeners. I even on my computer, I have a rotating series of photos. Ninety five percent of them are my family and happiest memories, but five percent of them are actually friends who I've lost. Cost just to remind myself, you know, I lost friends. First of all, it's nice to remember them, but secondly, I like to remind myself that could be me, that could be me any day now.

And then I was worried you were going to say five percent of them are rotting corpses or something, which certain Buddhist traditions would meditate in the Charnel grounds, right, That's where they would go to do it, you know, in the cemetery or where they were burning bodies. So I'm happy that you're remembering friends that are gone, not corpses.

And then I was worried you were going to say five percent of them are rotting corpses or something, which certain Buddhist traditions would meditate in the Charnel grounds, right, That's where they would go to do it, you know, in the cemetery or where they were burning bodies. So I'm happy that you're remembering friends that are gone, not corpses.

I prefer sort of the happier momento. Mary, Yeah, and that's good. I do have on my desktop, I have a little picture of a skull, but it's like a fun, psychedelic, colorful skull. I didn't want like a scary, depressing skull. So yes, I feel there's a room for sort of happier momentto Maury. But anyway, that to me is a very good way to go through the morning. And it is step by step. It's not fool proof. I'm still sometimes to rest in the morning, but it structures my day and it reminds me of healthier ways to think.

I prefer sort of the happier momento. Mary, Yeah, and that's good. I do have on my desktop, I have a little picture of a skull, but it's like a fun, psychedelic, colorful skull. I didn't want like a scary, depressing skull. So yes, I feel there's a room for sort of happier momentto Maury. But anyway, that to me is a very good way to go through the morning. And it is step by step. It's not fool proof. I'm still sometimes to rest in the morning, but it structures my day and it reminds me of healthier ways to think.

I love this because I too share this question of how much of life can we turn into practical steps to creating a better life, and how much of life is too complex, too complicated for that. And you know, I guess, like most things, I land somewhere in the middle that, like, I just think there are some things like life is complex, humans are complex, emotions are complex. I mean, health is complex. There's so many variables that go into so many different things, and we're all different. Even the perfect pizza, the flaw there is that I'm not going to think the perfect pizza is the pizza that he thinks rightful, right, you know, So even there on something like that. That's the advantage of puzzles, as you often say in the book, which is that there is an answer in most of them. There's an actual right answer. The jigsaw puzzle goes together one way, the crossword puzzle goes together one way, and that is very satisfying because I don't think a lot of life is that way.

I love this because I too share this question of how much of life can we turn into practical steps to creating a better life, and how much of life is too complex, too complicated for that. And you know, I guess, like most things, I land somewhere in the middle that, like, I just think there are some things like life is complex, humans are complex, emotions are complex. I mean, health is complex. There's so many variables that go into so many different things, and we're all different. Even the perfect pizza, the flaw there is that I'm not going to think the perfect pizza is the pizza that he thinks rightful, right, you know, So even there on something like that. That's the advantage of puzzles, as you often say in the book, which is that there is an answer in most of them. There's an actual right answer. The jigsaw puzzle goes together one way, the crossword puzzle goes together one way, and that is very satisfying because I don't think a lot of life is that way.

Well. Absolutely, that is sort of the allure of puzzles. They're sort of the platonic ideal and they always have that one right answer. And I believe in life there's no one right answer. Like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others, and part of the puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer. But having the perspective that there is an answer, whether it's perfect or not, I think is very helpful. Yeah, I'm with you on that.

Well. Absolutely, that is sort of the allure of puzzles. They're sort of the platonic ideal and they always have that one right answer. And I believe in life there's no one right answer. Like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others, and part of the puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer. But having the perspective that there is an answer, whether it's perfect or not, I think is very helpful. Yeah, I'm with you on that.

I was thinking as I was reflecting on you and the spelling bee and how I played the spelling bee for a while and then stopped, and I did wordle for a while and stopped, and waffle for a while and stopped. I get a little bit of a thing. But there's two things I tend to keep doing, one of which I am certain should not qualify as a puzzle because it's too mindless, which is play solitary. It's just I can't give myself. Credit is just a mindless version. But the other one is backgammon. And you bring up chess in the book as a type of puzzle, and I find back game and a fascinating one because I feel like it mirrors life to a certain extent. And what I mean by that is that there is skill, right, you can be a better or a worse backgammon player, but there is also randomness because you are rolling dice. You know, if the person you're playing against has much better dice rolls than you, doesn't matter how skillfully you play that right, You're just gonna win. And so I think that to me that mirrors life a little bit in that, like, just take health. There's lots that we can do to be skillful about our health, and then there's just a randomness element to it. You can do all the right things and still get lung cancer. You can do all the right things and still get hit by a card. And so I was just reflecting on backgammon as sort of a puzzle but also sort of, you know, not exactly a puzzle because there isn't a right answer.

I was thinking as I was reflecting on you and the spelling bee and how I played the spelling bee for a while and then stopped, and I did wordle for a while and stopped, and waffle for a while and stopped. I get a little bit of a thing. But there's two things I tend to keep doing, one of which I am certain should not qualify as a puzzle because it's too mindless, which is play solitary. It's just I can't give myself. Credit is just a mindless version. But the other one is backgammon. And you bring up chess in the book as a type of puzzle, and I find back game and a fascinating one because I feel like it mirrors life to a certain extent. And what I mean by that is that there is skill, right, you can be a better or a worse backgammon player, but there is also randomness because you are rolling dice. You know, if the person you're playing against has much better dice rolls than you, doesn't matter how skillfully you play that right, You're just gonna win. And so I think that to me that mirrors life a little bit in that, like, just take health. There's lots that we can do to be skillful about our health, and then there's just a randomness element to it. You can do all the right things and still get lung cancer. You can do all the right things and still get hit by a card. And so I was just reflecting on backgammon as sort of a puzzle but also sort of, you know, not exactly a puzzle because there isn't a right answer.

Wow, I love that. First of all, congrats on the backgammon that is a wonderful game. I mean the people I know who are into games. I like it's underrated. It's been around since ancient times. It's had some crazes, sort of like the rub excube in the eighties. I forget what year there was a particular craze in the sixties maybe, But I also love the way you think about it as a metaphor for life, and I one hundred percent agree that we really, certainly, I did underestimate the amount of luck that is involved in life, and I think it's very important. It's important to my own happiness to remember that luck play. I can do everything right, but still something happens to me. I think it's important for compassion. Yes, you know, seeing people who are down on their luck literally like they might have worked hard, they might have done made a lot of great decisions, but then a tornado ripped up their house and that's not their fault. So have a little compassion. But yes, I luck plays a part. And interestingly, I've had this debate with my son, who's a big chess player, because there are some people who say that even in chess there's a lot of luck, and it's a controversial statement, but I kind of believe it because chess is so complicated you cannot predict the thousands of variables and different lines. So you can make a move that seems mediocre, but through luck, it turns out to be a brilliant move because it opens up these possibilities that no one would have predicted. So I think luck is in play everywhere, even in those things that seem totally skill based.