I like totally saw the owl and like what it was doing, and it was like a moment where I realized, this is what line this can be. It doesn't have to be the exclusion, it doesn't have to be a separation. Like there was nothing missing from that moment for me. It was me and my son enjoying this experience together, and vision was secondary.

I like totally saw the owl and like what it was doing, and it was like a moment where I realized, this is what line this can be. It doesn't have to be the exclusion, it doesn't have to be a separation. Like there was nothing missing from that moment for me. It was me and my son enjoying this experience together, and vision was secondary.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Andrew Leland. He's the author of the Country of the Blind, a memoir at the End of Site, which was long listed for the twenty twenty three Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence and Nonfiction, and was named by Publishers Weekly as one of the ten best books of the year. His writing has appeared in The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and the San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. From twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen, he hosted and produced The Organist, an arts and culture podcast for KCRW. Andrew has been an editor at The Believer since two thousand and three.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Andrew Leland. He's the author of the Country of the Blind, a memoir at the End of Site, which was long listed for the twenty twenty three Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence and Nonfiction, and was named by Publishers Weekly as one of the ten best books of the year. His writing has appeared in The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and the San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. From twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen, he hosted and produced The Organist, an arts and culture podcast for KCRW. Andrew has been an editor at The Believer since two thousand and three.

Hi, Andrew, Welcome to the show.

Hi, Andrew, Welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Hey, thanks for having me.

We are going to be discussing your book, The Country of the Blind. But before we do that, we'll start like we always do at the Parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

We are going to be discussing your book, The Country of the Blind. But before we do that, we'll start like we always do at the Parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well. My work in my life for the last couple of years has been really focused on thinking about the experience of acquiring a disability, really in particular for me, of the very gradual process of becoming blind. And I'm still in the midst of that process. The disease I have RP or retinis pigmentosa is a very gradual one, so you know, I still have a little bit of central vision, but I've lost a tremendous amount of vision over the last you know, thirty years. And there are a lot of different ways to approach that experience, and so I think the parable suggests sort of the two paths that one can take in confronting that experience. And I do see it, you know, and I think I try to be really clear about it and honest with myself about it, that there is a certain amount of bad wolf feeding that I think is necessary, if I could put it in those terms, Like, you know, there's grief and there's resentment and there's anger that I think are natural reactions to that feeling of loss of control or just of losing something that is incredibly useful. But I think one thing that I've discovered through this process is that there is actually a good wolf too in there, which is to say that there are are ways to inhabit one's blindness or disability that are actually in line with the good wolf that Grandpa describes there, you know. And I guess if I had to name how that works, it has to do with thinking of blindness not as a tragedy, not as like an affliction, but rather as really like a constraint, a set of problems that one needs to innovate to solve in the same way that any thinker confronts problems in the world and tinkers and you know, thinks and works and researches and experiments and finds tools to work through it.

Well. My work in my life for the last couple of years has been really focused on thinking about the experience of acquiring a disability, really in particular for me, of the very gradual process of becoming blind. And I'm still in the midst of that process. The disease I have RP or retinis pigmentosa is a very gradual one, so you know, I still have a little bit of central vision, but I've lost a tremendous amount of vision over the last you know, thirty years. And there are a lot of different ways to approach that experience, and so I think the parable suggests sort of the two paths that one can take in confronting that experience. And I do see it, you know, and I think I try to be really clear about it and honest with myself about it, that there is a certain amount of bad wolf feeding that I think is necessary, if I could put it in those terms, Like, you know, there's grief and there's resentment and there's anger that I think are natural reactions to that feeling of loss of control or just of losing something that is incredibly useful. But I think one thing that I've discovered through this process is that there is actually a good wolf too in there, which is to say that there are are ways to inhabit one's blindness or disability that are actually in line with the good wolf that Grandpa describes there, you know. And I guess if I had to name how that works, it has to do with thinking of blindness not as a tragedy, not as like an affliction, but rather as really like a constraint, a set of problems that one needs to innovate to solve in the same way that any thinker confronts problems in the world and tinkers and you know, thinks and works and researches and experiments and finds tools to work through it.

Yeah, there's a couple things in there. I'd love to touch on them, And I think the first one is that the parable can give the sense that having things like grief and fear and all that are bad and they're obviously not right. They're natural emotions that you know, we need to process and work through. And then the other thing that you said there reminds me of a friend of mine and a guest who's been on the show a few times, AJ Jacobs, who's a great writer and he wrote a recent book all about puzzles. He's a puzzle guy. But the thing about it that I loved was this idea of thinking about problems as puzzles and the way you just described that, right, you were describing a puzzle mindset, right, which was like, I got, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to figure that out. And I just have always loved that reframing of a problem to a puzzle. It just moves your right to solution, right.

Yeah, there's a couple things in there. I'd love to touch on them, And I think the first one is that the parable can give the sense that having things like grief and fear and all that are bad and they're obviously not right. They're natural emotions that you know, we need to process and work through. And then the other thing that you said there reminds me of a friend of mine and a guest who's been on the show a few times, AJ Jacobs, who's a great writer and he wrote a recent book all about puzzles. He's a puzzle guy. But the thing about it that I loved was this idea of thinking about problems as puzzles and the way you just described that, right, you were describing a puzzle mindset, right, which was like, I got, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to figure that out. And I just have always loved that reframing of a problem to a puzzle. It just moves your right to solution, right.

Yeah, that's such a great point. And you know, a blind mentor of mine has used that word puzzle. He called it a magnificent puzzle in fact. Oh and you know, and I think the importance of reframing something as a puzzle, in addition to what you said about it orienting one around solutions, is it also encourages curiosity. Yeah, and that is such a crucial idea for me, is that you know, you can approach something with resentment or grief or revulsion or fear. But almost anything in the world you can approach with curiosity, which doesn't mean that that the thing you're curious about has to be good, right or I have a positive experience or makes you feel pleasurable, but you can still instead of pushing it away, you can say, Okay, well it's there, like, what is it? Let's poke at it a little bit, let's think about it. That's the kind of spirit of the puzzle solver that I think is incredibly powerful for anyone in a situation like acquiring a disability.

Yeah, that's such a great point. And you know, a blind mentor of mine has used that word puzzle. He called it a magnificent puzzle in fact. Oh and you know, and I think the importance of reframing something as a puzzle, in addition to what you said about it orienting one around solutions, is it also encourages curiosity. Yeah, and that is such a crucial idea for me, is that you know, you can approach something with resentment or grief or revulsion or fear. But almost anything in the world you can approach with curiosity, which doesn't mean that that the thing you're curious about has to be good, right or I have a positive experience or makes you feel pleasurable, but you can still instead of pushing it away, you can say, Okay, well it's there, like, what is it? Let's poke at it a little bit, let's think about it. That's the kind of spirit of the puzzle solver that I think is incredibly powerful for anyone in a situation like acquiring a disability.

So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good Wolf. Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Goodwolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one youfeed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. Tell us just a little bit about your condition when it started, kind of what the process has been, just so listeners kind of have an idea of the overall kind of picture of what this journey has been like for you.

So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good Wolf. Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Goodwolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one youfeed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. Tell us just a little bit about your condition when it started, kind of what the process has been, just so listeners kind of have an idea of the overall kind of picture of what this journey has been like for you.

Yeah, I have a pretty classic version of this disease from what I understand There's a lot of different experiences of RP, but mine is that when I was a teenager, I noticed that I had a lot of trouble seeing in the dark, and so I would start to do these teenage eerly things like, you know, go out with my friends, to go up walk on the hillside behind their house at night, you know, to do bed not too bad things, but you know that the things that teenagers do when they're off on their own, sure, you know. And I was just like, why is everyone so adept at picking their way up this hillside compared to me, or you know, going out to the movies, the prospect of going to get a drink or go to the bathroom in the middle of a movie. I was like, why would anyone put themselves through that stress? You know. And it took a couple of years of that to really realize, like, actually, because it's so ambiguous, you know, like it's something that I kept to myself, and then when I would talk about it, people would sort of be like, I don't know, it's dark, yeah, sure, it's hard to see. And it really took this accumulation of experiences that I thought, I think something actually is going on here. And I had self diagnosed on the early Internet. My dad bought me a modem, and then years even beyond that continued until finally I complained about it enough to my mom that when I was taking a semester off after my first year in college, she said, Okay, let's go to a rental specialist and see what's happening. And then lo and behold, I had the real diagnosis. And when that happened, when I was around nineteen, the doctor said to me, the prognosis for RP is it'll be this very gradual decline in your vision, and it goes from the outside in, so it's like this very gradual tunnel vision and then when you hit middle age, it'll accelerate a lot and you'll be blind. And that was a lot to take in in that moment. But also, you know, middle age for a nineteen year old felt very very distant, and so it's you know, I think people expect that story to have this sense of like and then my life was forever changed, and my experience of it was not that way. It really was like, well, that's a curveball, but like now I'm going to go back to college and you know, continue being an English major and you know, continue doing my college radio show, and you know, like my life continued, and you know, his prognosis was pretty accurate. I would say, you know, I went through my twenties and thirties with this very very very gradual narrowing of my field where you know, confusing moments like leaving people hanging for high fives or handshakes. You know, my night blindness increased. I realized it was not that safe to drive at night, you know, And there was just this very slow progression of milestones that I hit where I stopped driving at night, stopped driving during the day was the major one, you know, stopped riding a bike. And then about eight or nine years ago, when I moved to Massachusetts, that's when I decided, Okay, like I'm moving to this new town, I don't know anybody. I'm just going to use the white cane wherever I go, because I had had a white cane before that, but it's just so stigmatized and it just made me feel so so much like an impostor using the white cane with visions still, you know, and people look at you like you're totally blind with the white cane but I just saw you look at your phone, like, what's that about. I really had so much resistance built up to it, and then when we moved here, I said, okay, I'm just I know that it's going to help me. And then that was really the beginning of this whole journey that I read about in the book, because it kind of inserted the social aspect of blindness into every part of my life that I couldn't ignore anymore.

Yeah, I have a pretty classic version of this disease from what I understand There's a lot of different experiences of RP, but mine is that when I was a teenager, I noticed that I had a lot of trouble seeing in the dark, and so I would start to do these teenage eerly things like, you know, go out with my friends, to go up walk on the hillside behind their house at night, you know, to do bed not too bad things, but you know that the things that teenagers do when they're off on their own, sure, you know. And I was just like, why is everyone so adept at picking their way up this hillside compared to me, or you know, going out to the movies, the prospect of going to get a drink or go to the bathroom in the middle of a movie. I was like, why would anyone put themselves through that stress? You know. And it took a couple of years of that to really realize, like, actually, because it's so ambiguous, you know, like it's something that I kept to myself, and then when I would talk about it, people would sort of be like, I don't know, it's dark, yeah, sure, it's hard to see. And it really took this accumulation of experiences that I thought, I think something actually is going on here. And I had self diagnosed on the early Internet. My dad bought me a modem, and then years even beyond that continued until finally I complained about it enough to my mom that when I was taking a semester off after my first year in college, she said, Okay, let's go to a rental specialist and see what's happening. And then lo and behold, I had the real diagnosis. And when that happened, when I was around nineteen, the doctor said to me, the prognosis for RP is it'll be this very gradual decline in your vision, and it goes from the outside in, so it's like this very gradual tunnel vision and then when you hit middle age, it'll accelerate a lot and you'll be blind. And that was a lot to take in in that moment. But also, you know, middle age for a nineteen year old felt very very distant, and so it's you know, I think people expect that story to have this sense of like and then my life was forever changed, and my experience of it was not that way. It really was like, well, that's a curveball, but like now I'm going to go back to college and you know, continue being an English major and you know, continue doing my college radio show, and you know, like my life continued, and you know, his prognosis was pretty accurate. I would say, you know, I went through my twenties and thirties with this very very very gradual narrowing of my field where you know, confusing moments like leaving people hanging for high fives or handshakes. You know, my night blindness increased. I realized it was not that safe to drive at night, you know, And there was just this very slow progression of milestones that I hit where I stopped driving at night, stopped driving during the day was the major one, you know, stopped riding a bike. And then about eight or nine years ago, when I moved to Massachusetts, that's when I decided, Okay, like I'm moving to this new town, I don't know anybody. I'm just going to use the white cane wherever I go, because I had had a white cane before that, but it's just so stigmatized and it just made me feel so so much like an impostor using the white cane with visions still, you know, and people look at you like you're totally blind with the white cane but I just saw you look at your phone, like, what's that about. I really had so much resistance built up to it, and then when we moved here, I said, okay, I'm just I know that it's going to help me. And then that was really the beginning of this whole journey that I read about in the book, because it kind of inserted the social aspect of blindness into every part of my life that I couldn't ignore anymore.

Yeah, you turned this book in probably a couple of years ago, right, So what's your current state of vision? I'd be curious kind of what it is now and even what the change has been since maybe when you wrote the book. Yeah.

Yeah, you turned this book in probably a couple of years ago, right, So what's your current state of vision? I'd be curious kind of what it is now and even what the change has been since maybe when you wrote the book. Yeah.

I mean I went through significant changes in vision while writing the book. And I have to be clear about what I mean by significant changes of vision, because this is something I've talked about with my I doctor, you know, because my doctor it's kind of funny to use this word, but she's a scientist, right, Like she's a retinal researcher. She publishes papers on retinai's pigmentosa yep. And for her, the retinal degeneration is very much like a plot on a graph, and the lived experience of what you know, the visual field. Normal visual field I think is something like one hundred and eighty degrees or something like that, you know, and I think I'm at something like five or six degrees. I think it's different in each eye, but percentage wise, you know, it's a tiny you know, it's like four or five percent of what normal visual fields see. So I'm looking through a very small tube. And the changes that she's tracking are really like from five percent to four point eight six percent, right, So it's like for her, she's like good stuff, Andrew like this is very slow decline. You're doing great. But functionally, for me, those changes can sometimes feel immense. It can be really hard to predict, Like the change from five point one to five don't really notice it, but like five to four point nine is like I'm crying and it's overwhelming and what's going on? Yea. And so you know when I say that I'm going through big changes writing the book, like it's within that framework of very confusing subjective experience, but it's real. And so you know, like I said with the Cane, like it's not like there was any moment when my eye doctor or the state of Massachusetts or anybody was like, you are now official blind enough to need to use this cane wherever you walk, right. It was like I had like kicked enough dogs and like bruised my shin on enough fire hydrants that I was like, you know what, like this is going to make my life better if I use this thing in public. And while I was writing the book, I had a similar revelation about reading print. It's like even today, you know, if you was a weird example, but like if you poisoned me and like a mystery novel, you know, we were like the recipe to the antidote is in this edition of Moby Dick that we've changed one sentence that has a recipe for the antidote. Like I would survive. I could like make it through Moby Dick in normal print, but it would suck, Like I would just be so unhappy. And so during the course of writing the book, I started writing in twenty nineteen, and you know, it took me about three years. I retired from print, which you know, like stopping driving, like using the cane, and that is a major milestone. And even though like like I say, I still could technically find the antidote as a writer particularly, it was a sea change for me and it pushed me even deeper into this world of figuring out what a system technology, you know, screen readers and learning Braille in that whole world that changed while I was writing the book and then since I finished the book. It's so hard to explain, but I'll try. You know, it's such little things. It's like I'll walk into a room and I'm just more comfortable using other senses. They're not heightened, I should be clear, Like it's not like The Daredevil is the comic book, right, Like you don't have superhering or super touch, but you use them more. And it's kind of a two way street. Like I forced myself to do it more and then I just naturally do it more. Like if I'm looking for something, I'm just starting to get the memo that like raking my small, little five percent visual field over a table is not an efficient way to do it, so why not just run my hands over it? And it's embarrassing because I think if somebody sees me, like when I do that. First time I did that in a cafe, I felt so strange, just like wiping my hands over the table to make sure I hadn't forgotten my sunglasses or whatever. But now it feels natural and it's just like a blind way of checking to make sure I didn't forget anything.

I mean I went through significant changes in vision while writing the book. And I have to be clear about what I mean by significant changes of vision, because this is something I've talked about with my I doctor, you know, because my doctor it's kind of funny to use this word, but she's a scientist, right, Like she's a retinal researcher. She publishes papers on retinai's pigmentosa yep. And for her, the retinal degeneration is very much like a plot on a graph, and the lived experience of what you know, the visual field. Normal visual field I think is something like one hundred and eighty degrees or something like that, you know, and I think I'm at something like five or six degrees. I think it's different in each eye, but percentage wise, you know, it's a tiny you know, it's like four or five percent of what normal visual fields see. So I'm looking through a very small tube. And the changes that she's tracking are really like from five percent to four point eight six percent, right, So it's like for her, she's like good stuff, Andrew like this is very slow decline. You're doing great. But functionally, for me, those changes can sometimes feel immense. It can be really hard to predict, Like the change from five point one to five don't really notice it, but like five to four point nine is like I'm crying and it's overwhelming and what's going on? Yea. And so you know when I say that I'm going through big changes writing the book, like it's within that framework of very confusing subjective experience, but it's real. And so you know, like I said with the Cane, like it's not like there was any moment when my eye doctor or the state of Massachusetts or anybody was like, you are now official blind enough to need to use this cane wherever you walk, right. It was like I had like kicked enough dogs and like bruised my shin on enough fire hydrants that I was like, you know what, like this is going to make my life better if I use this thing in public. And while I was writing the book, I had a similar revelation about reading print. It's like even today, you know, if you was a weird example, but like if you poisoned me and like a mystery novel, you know, we were like the recipe to the antidote is in this edition of Moby Dick that we've changed one sentence that has a recipe for the antidote. Like I would survive. I could like make it through Moby Dick in normal print, but it would suck, Like I would just be so unhappy. And so during the course of writing the book, I started writing in twenty nineteen, and you know, it took me about three years. I retired from print, which you know, like stopping driving, like using the cane, and that is a major milestone. And even though like like I say, I still could technically find the antidote as a writer particularly, it was a sea change for me and it pushed me even deeper into this world of figuring out what a system technology, you know, screen readers and learning Braille in that whole world that changed while I was writing the book and then since I finished the book. It's so hard to explain, but I'll try. You know, it's such little things. It's like I'll walk into a room and I'm just more comfortable using other senses. They're not heightened, I should be clear, Like it's not like The Daredevil is the comic book, right, Like you don't have superhering or super touch, but you use them more. And it's kind of a two way street. Like I forced myself to do it more and then I just naturally do it more. Like if I'm looking for something, I'm just starting to get the memo that like raking my small, little five percent visual field over a table is not an efficient way to do it, so why not just run my hands over it? And it's embarrassing because I think if somebody sees me, like when I do that. First time I did that in a cafe, I felt so strange, just like wiping my hands over the table to make sure I hadn't forgotten my sunglasses or whatever. But now it feels natural and it's just like a blind way of checking to make sure I didn't forget anything.

Yeah. I think what's so f fascinating about your story, and you talk about this a lot, is the gradual nature of it and the fact that you can't really be in non binaries, meaning you're not blind or sited, you're both. Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of life unfolds in that way. A lot of life unfolds in this in between state. As somebody who's studied a lot of Buddhism, you know, in Buddhism they talk about the Bardo. You know, it's the in between state, and technically it's used to refer to sort of between lifetimes, but many teachers talk about all the Bardow states that we go through in our own lives, and that's kind of what you have. There is this I can see sort of, but I also can't and I don't really fall into either camp fully, which leaves you in a weird place.

Yeah. I think what's so f fascinating about your story, and you talk about this a lot, is the gradual nature of it and the fact that you can't really be in non binaries, meaning you're not blind or sited, you're both. Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of life unfolds in that way. A lot of life unfolds in this in between state. As somebody who's studied a lot of Buddhism, you know, in Buddhism they talk about the Bardo. You know, it's the in between state, and technically it's used to refer to sort of between lifetimes, but many teachers talk about all the Bardow states that we go through in our own lives, and that's kind of what you have. There is this I can see sort of, but I also can't and I don't really fall into either camp fully, which leaves you in a weird place.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's true. And you know, just to push the ambiguity even further, you know, one of the things that another blind mentor of mine said to me, my friend Will Butler, and I write about this in the book. He says, you know, Andrew, like, you might be going blind for a really long time, and you might be more blind, you might be less blind, but at a certain point you might just have to sort of say you're blind, even if there is one percent or three percent of vision remaining. And so even though I think you're right to say that, like I'm not blind and I'm not sighted, at the same time, one thing that I'm really pushing towards is to find a way to say, even with this site, i am blind, and I'm okay with that.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's true. And you know, just to push the ambiguity even further, you know, one of the things that another blind mentor of mine said to me, my friend Will Butler, and I write about this in the book. He says, you know, Andrew, like, you might be going blind for a really long time, and you might be more blind, you might be less blind, but at a certain point you might just have to sort of say you're blind, even if there is one percent or three percent of vision remaining. And so even though I think you're right to say that, like I'm not blind and I'm not sighted, at the same time, one thing that I'm really pushing towards is to find a way to say, even with this site, i am blind, and I'm okay with that.

Right, right, And I assume you know, given the gradual nature of this, that that position has shifted and changed over time.

Right, right, And I assume you know, given the gradual nature of this, that that position has shifted and changed over time.

Yeah, Because if you're wanting a binary like this world is not for you, right, there's very, very rarely a binary that's going to be satisfying in that way. Like I write a little bit about this ancient Greek philosophical paradox of the heap, where it's like, you know, if you put a grain of sand on the table, is that a heap? No, of course not. You know, like three grains of sand. That's not a heap, you know, ten grains of sand? Like how many grains of sand does it take? Or you do it in reverse, like there's a heap of sand on the table, how many do you remove? And like this binary of like heap or non heap. It's sort of impossible. You'll never find the binary no matter how much you try to think it through.

Yeah, Because if you're wanting a binary like this world is not for you, right, there's very, very rarely a binary that's going to be satisfying in that way. Like I write a little bit about this ancient Greek philosophical paradox of the heap, where it's like, you know, if you put a grain of sand on the table, is that a heap? No, of course not. You know, like three grains of sand. That's not a heap, you know, ten grains of sand? Like how many grains of sand does it take? Or you do it in reverse, like there's a heap of sand on the table, how many do you remove? And like this binary of like heap or non heap. It's sort of impossible. You'll never find the binary no matter how much you try to think it through.

Yeah, there's another old story. It's the ship of I can't remember what it's called. You may even reference it.

Yeah, there's another old story. It's the ship of I can't remember what it's called. You may even reference it.

In your thesus, the ship of Theseus.

In your thesus, the ship of Theseus.

It's the same thing, right, tell us about it. It comes up a lot on the show. I love it.

It's the same thing, right, tell us about it. It comes up a lot on the show. I love it.

Oh, it's such a good story. Yeah, so don't make me tell you. Like the names of the Greek dudes who are surely Theseus is one of them. I think it's his ship. We can agree, but.

Oh, it's such a good story. Yeah, so don't make me tell you. Like the names of the Greek dudes who are surely Theseus is one of them. I think it's his ship. We can agree, but.

I just call him Apollo and Zeus and Frank.

I just call him Apollo and Zeus and Frank.

Yeah, Joey. But basically, there's the ship going on, as the Greek epics always tell you on epic adventures across the seas, you know, and as you do, a plank will get rotted or break off in a storm, and so you replace it, and over the years every plank on the ship is going to be replaced, and it's a similar philosophical question. We're like, well, so if the none of the original wood is there, is it still the Ship of Theseus. Maggie Nelson, who wrote a really beautiful book called The Argonauts, which is a lot about gender transition, uses that story to talk about gender transition, you know, and it really is a story about identity at its heart, and you know, like we in our lives go through these profound transitions, whether it's just something like gender transition, or acquiring disability, becoming blind, or even just aging or you know, moving somewhere or going through a divorce. You know, there you can sort of name any number of these sort of cataclysmic or transformational transitions, and you do feel utterly different, and yet there's this paradoxical sense that, like the Ship of Thesus, like even though everything is radically changed, there's still something that is coherent about you and who you are. Yeah.

Yeah, Joey. But basically, there's the ship going on, as the Greek epics always tell you on epic adventures across the seas, you know, and as you do, a plank will get rotted or break off in a storm, and so you replace it, and over the years every plank on the ship is going to be replaced, and it's a similar philosophical question. We're like, well, so if the none of the original wood is there, is it still the Ship of Theseus. Maggie Nelson, who wrote a really beautiful book called The Argonauts, which is a lot about gender transition, uses that story to talk about gender transition, you know, and it really is a story about identity at its heart, and you know, like we in our lives go through these profound transitions, whether it's just something like gender transition, or acquiring disability, becoming blind, or even just aging or you know, moving somewhere or going through a divorce. You know, there you can sort of name any number of these sort of cataclysmic or transformational transitions, and you do feel utterly different, and yet there's this paradoxical sense that, like the Ship of Thesus, like even though everything is radically changed, there's still something that is coherent about you and who you are. Yeah.

Well, I love that story and use it often because in Buddhism, when we talk about this sense of a self right that I am this unique distinct thing, you know, Buddhism would say, yeah, not really, right. They even use the term heaps. They're like your five different heaps of things, right, But it is identity, and I think one of the fascinating things is the identity. I want to read something you wrote. You said, I met people who said that their blindness meant nothing to them, that it was a mere attribute like hair color, and others whose blindness utterly defined and upended their lives. Say more about that, because that's what we're kind of talking about here, right, is identity. Andrew Solomon, another great writer, has been a guest on the show. In his book Far from the Tree, talked about illness or identity.

Well, I love that story and use it often because in Buddhism, when we talk about this sense of a self right that I am this unique distinct thing, you know, Buddhism would say, yeah, not really, right. They even use the term heaps. They're like your five different heaps of things, right, But it is identity, and I think one of the fascinating things is the identity. I want to read something you wrote. You said, I met people who said that their blindness meant nothing to them, that it was a mere attribute like hair color, and others whose blindness utterly defined and upended their lives. Say more about that, because that's what we're kind of talking about here, right, is identity. Andrew Solomon, another great writer, has been a guest on the show. In his book Far from the Tree, talked about illness or identity.

Mm hmmm. Yeah. Solomon is a big is a big influence. I think that book is really important and was one of my introductions to thinking about disability and identity in the terms you're talking about. Yeah, I mean that quote that you read. There is such a spectrum of people's relationships with blindness, and I can't pass judgment, you know. I think I don't begrudge people who say they don't want anything to do with other blind people, you know. I think I think everyone has to sort of make their peace with it or or just understand it differently. And I think you see that across identity really, Like, I think there are people who have similar relationship with the race, right. There's somebody who says, like, you know, as a Jew, that's the most important thing about me, and people who are like no, like yeah, my mom's Jewish, but like, don't it's not part or gender or anything else. One of the revelations to me and researching the book was was finding this oral history with a blind bioethicist named Adrian Ash who died about ten years ago. But this oral history, it just like leaped off the page because she was wrestling with so many of these ideas about identity and blindness and sort of how central it should be in ways that I've just been searching for. And it was one of those reading experiences when you're like, oh, I found this person who has been thinking about everything and is ten times smarter than I am, and I'm so grateful. But you know, her conclusion, if I can paraphrase it, is that for her and again, this is just one person's approach, but I found it really powerful. She doesn't want blindness to be central in her life. You know, there's a there's a writer Georgina Kleigue, who I really admire, who talks about like on some days it matters less than the weather. And I've experienced that too, Like for all the focus I've put on it in writing and talking and thinking about it, you know, when I'm at home eating dinner with my family, it's not like I'm a blind man eating dinner with my family, right, it does disappear. What she says is, you know when she experiences discrimination when she applies for a job and they say, what are you talking about? We can't hire a blind person like that sponkers no, you know, then she's blind, and then it kind of gets forced on her. And I don't totally subscribe to that. I do want to reserve space for a more positive place for blindness to have in my life. I feel like that framework, it's like either disappears entirely or it's a negative trait, you know, And just the experiences I've had with other blind people kind of in community is really beautiful, and so there's that part of it too. But I just like the way that the way she describes it, it doesn't have to be in this fixed place like for me, blindness is in position a seventeen, and like it moves depending on your relations with other people and yourself.

Mm hmmm. Yeah. Solomon is a big is a big influence. I think that book is really important and was one of my introductions to thinking about disability and identity in the terms you're talking about. Yeah, I mean that quote that you read. There is such a spectrum of people's relationships with blindness, and I can't pass judgment, you know. I think I don't begrudge people who say they don't want anything to do with other blind people, you know. I think I think everyone has to sort of make their peace with it or or just understand it differently. And I think you see that across identity really, Like, I think there are people who have similar relationship with the race, right. There's somebody who says, like, you know, as a Jew, that's the most important thing about me, and people who are like no, like yeah, my mom's Jewish, but like, don't it's not part or gender or anything else. One of the revelations to me and researching the book was was finding this oral history with a blind bioethicist named Adrian Ash who died about ten years ago. But this oral history, it just like leaped off the page because she was wrestling with so many of these ideas about identity and blindness and sort of how central it should be in ways that I've just been searching for. And it was one of those reading experiences when you're like, oh, I found this person who has been thinking about everything and is ten times smarter than I am, and I'm so grateful. But you know, her conclusion, if I can paraphrase it, is that for her and again, this is just one person's approach, but I found it really powerful. She doesn't want blindness to be central in her life. You know, there's a there's a writer Georgina Kleigue, who I really admire, who talks about like on some days it matters less than the weather. And I've experienced that too, Like for all the focus I've put on it in writing and talking and thinking about it, you know, when I'm at home eating dinner with my family, it's not like I'm a blind man eating dinner with my family, right, it does disappear. What she says is, you know when she experiences discrimination when she applies for a job and they say, what are you talking about? We can't hire a blind person like that sponkers no, you know, then she's blind, and then it kind of gets forced on her. And I don't totally subscribe to that. I do want to reserve space for a more positive place for blindness to have in my life. I feel like that framework, it's like either disappears entirely or it's a negative trait, you know, And just the experiences I've had with other blind people kind of in community is really beautiful, and so there's that part of it too. But I just like the way that the way she describes it, it doesn't have to be in this fixed place like for me, blindness is in position a seventeen, and like it moves depending on your relations with other people and yourself.

I'm fascinated by identity and also labels or diagnoses, right, So, like I'm a recovering heroin addict and alcoholic, right. And so at one point, particularly as I was getting sobered, that was a big part of my identity. And interestingly, the thing that sort of caused me to move away from twelve step programs was the fact that that identity was still meant to be central and it didn't feel central to me anymore. Right. There was this positioning of there's us, the alcoholics, and then there's the normal people, and I went, that's a false distinction. That's not true. Of course, when I drink, I have problems that Bob doesn't, But fundamentally, Bob and I are still very much the same. Yeah, And so you know where identity fits. You know, I have been a depression sufferer, and so you know, do I have depression? You know, Like, I'm always fascinated by where And this is exactly what you're saying, Where identity or diet, ignosis or whatever is helpful and when it ceases to be helpful. Yeah, And I love what you're saying that it doesn't hold a fixed position. It should naturally sort of move based on where you are, what's happening with you, you know, like I would imagine for you if you've suddenly noticed a shift in your sight for a little while, your blindness becomes more central. Of course, yeah, then as it kind of goes on, because we just adapt to anything, right, we just get used to nearly anything. So I'm just fascinated by and love the idea of like how can I use identity or diagnosis or whatever you want to call it as a tool that can be helpful like you said, and other times like not helpful.

I'm fascinated by identity and also labels or diagnoses, right, So, like I'm a recovering heroin addict and alcoholic, right. And so at one point, particularly as I was getting sobered, that was a big part of my identity. And interestingly, the thing that sort of caused me to move away from twelve step programs was the fact that that identity was still meant to be central and it didn't feel central to me anymore. Right. There was this positioning of there's us, the alcoholics, and then there's the normal people, and I went, that's a false distinction. That's not true. Of course, when I drink, I have problems that Bob doesn't, But fundamentally, Bob and I are still very much the same. Yeah, And so you know where identity fits. You know, I have been a depression sufferer, and so you know, do I have depression? You know, Like, I'm always fascinated by where And this is exactly what you're saying, Where identity or diet, ignosis or whatever is helpful and when it ceases to be helpful. Yeah, And I love what you're saying that it doesn't hold a fixed position. It should naturally sort of move based on where you are, what's happening with you, you know, like I would imagine for you if you've suddenly noticed a shift in your sight for a little while, your blindness becomes more central. Of course, yeah, then as it kind of goes on, because we just adapt to anything, right, we just get used to nearly anything. So I'm just fascinated by and love the idea of like how can I use identity or diagnosis or whatever you want to call it as a tool that can be helpful like you said, and other times like not helpful.

I think it's so important to the way that one defines it oneself versus having it imposed from the outside, you know. And I think there's an element t which off like I'm introducing you and I'm like, this is Eric who is a former addict, you know, Like it's like no, like you don't get to say that about me, Like that's that's yours to say, yes, And you know, I think this is a really common experience of people with disabilities, where like I'm just a guy waiting for the bus, but suddenly it's like sir, you are blind, and I allow me to. You know, the good intentions are there. But what it does is it takes me from being a guy reading the paper waiting for the bus to suddenly like, I am a blind problem in the world. And I think it's a version of that Adrian Ash sense of oppression, even though it's like a super low key, like microaggression version of it. Like it's not like being denied a job, yeah, but it's still like it doesn't let me just be a human in the world. It forces me into this identity category that for someone else has a bunch of problems that I don't necessarily feel.

I think it's so important to the way that one defines it oneself versus having it imposed from the outside, you know. And I think there's an element t which off like I'm introducing you and I'm like, this is Eric who is a former addict, you know, Like it's like no, like you don't get to say that about me, Like that's that's yours to say, yes, And you know, I think this is a really common experience of people with disabilities, where like I'm just a guy waiting for the bus, but suddenly it's like sir, you are blind, and I allow me to. You know, the good intentions are there. But what it does is it takes me from being a guy reading the paper waiting for the bus to suddenly like, I am a blind problem in the world. And I think it's a version of that Adrian Ash sense of oppression, even though it's like a super low key, like microaggression version of it. Like it's not like being denied a job, yeah, but it's still like it doesn't let me just be a human in the world. It forces me into this identity category that for someone else has a bunch of problems that I don't necessarily feel.

I think that's really an important point, right, because I can choose internally which identity I want to adopt and use, but externally I often don't get the choice, right, race being a great example, right, you know, like I can have my own internal identity around that, but in certain situations out in the world, many situations, right, it's being imposed upon me. And I love something you say in the book. You say, this is something lying people have said but really shouldn't have to over and over to the sighted world around us. We're still people we don't see or see very well. But aside from that, we're just like you.

I think that's really an important point, right, because I can choose internally which identity I want to adopt and use, but externally I often don't get the choice, right, race being a great example, right, you know, like I can have my own internal identity around that, but in certain situations out in the world, many situations, right, it's being imposed upon me. And I love something you say in the book. You say, this is something lying people have said but really shouldn't have to over and over to the sighted world around us. We're still people we don't see or see very well. But aside from that, we're just like you.

Yeah. Yeah, It's something that just comes up again and again, And I try to be careful about implicating myself here too, Like part of what I do in the book is really chronicle my own journey not just from being cited to being more blind, but also this sort of attitudinal journey of like I start the book and I'm really painfully honest in some cases about the ableism that I bring to my encounters with other disabled people. So I've heard from readers that that's useful in part because they feel like it's not like I'm letting them off the hook, because I don't let myself off the hook. But it's a way of acknowledging that we're all starting from a place of you know, like their blindness is a pretty low incidence disability. Reality is, like most people haven't hung out with a blind person, so you're not going to know this stuff, and I certainly hadn't, So I do think it's important to both make that point that in the quote that you read, and say like, yeah, it's important to think about the harm that you might do by treating a blind person as like an alien who's just been transported from another planet, but also like not just come out swinging in a way that's going to cut off any possibility of real connection or change.

Yeah. Yeah, It's something that just comes up again and again, And I try to be careful about implicating myself here too, Like part of what I do in the book is really chronicle my own journey not just from being cited to being more blind, but also this sort of attitudinal journey of like I start the book and I'm really painfully honest in some cases about the ableism that I bring to my encounters with other disabled people. So I've heard from readers that that's useful in part because they feel like it's not like I'm letting them off the hook, because I don't let myself off the hook. But it's a way of acknowledging that we're all starting from a place of you know, like their blindness is a pretty low incidence disability. Reality is, like most people haven't hung out with a blind person, so you're not going to know this stuff, and I certainly hadn't, So I do think it's important to both make that point that in the quote that you read, and say like, yeah, it's important to think about the harm that you might do by treating a blind person as like an alien who's just been transported from another planet, but also like not just come out swinging in a way that's going to cut off any possibility of real connection or change.

Yeah, and I think you know the thing about when a non disabled quote unquote person encounters a disabled person, Right, there's stigma, but there's often also compassion of a like, how do I interact in a way that is most helpful to you that feels right? And the challenge I've discovered is that every person with the disability may have a very different feeling about that.

Yeah, and I think you know the thing about when a non disabled quote unquote person encounters a disabled person, Right, there's stigma, but there's often also compassion of a like, how do I interact in a way that is most helpful to you that feels right? And the challenge I've discovered is that every person with the disability may have a very different feeling about that.

You know.

You know.

Like one of my best friends has been in a wheelchair since he was like two years old, and I grew up with him, you know, and so I'm very used to a person in a wheelchair and what they might need and what they might not and where the challenges are. But even within that, I can't assume that my friend and how I treat him and how he wants to be treated is the same as Apollo his wheelchair, right. Yeah, And so that's I think it makes it hard, is because I do think there's stigma, but there's also compassion, like how do I relate to this person in a kind and decent way? But I don't know how to do that because everybody's a little different in how they want to be related to h in regards to their disability.

Like one of my best friends has been in a wheelchair since he was like two years old, and I grew up with him, you know, and so I'm very used to a person in a wheelchair and what they might need and what they might not and where the challenges are. But even within that, I can't assume that my friend and how I treat him and how he wants to be treated is the same as Apollo his wheelchair, right. Yeah, And so that's I think it makes it hard, is because I do think there's stigma, but there's also compassion, like how do I relate to this person in a kind and decent way? But I don't know how to do that because everybody's a little different in how they want to be related to h in regards to their disability.

Yeah. Yeah, One really basic but important place to start with that question is to ask rather than offer. I guess offering is a form of asking, So let me rephrase that. I think it's to ask or offer rather than intervene. And I think people have a pang of compassion, a pang of concern, or of you know, a desire to be helpful, and then the mistake is to let that feeling motivate intervention, and that's when you end up grabbing somebody. I promise you this happens every day in every city in this country to a blind or disabled person. Or like you're sitting on the street corner, maybe not even trying to cross that way, but somebody's like sees the green light, sees the blind person like, okay, you're good to go. I'm gonna here we go. Like they grab the elbow and they pull, and it's like, I can't tell you how many black people have told me like I wasn't even trying to cross the street, like I was waiting for my taxi or whatever. Yeah, that's the problem is that it's an intervention, whereas if you just say, like, heyre trying to cross the street, can I give you some help? No, I'm good, and then okay, on your way, right.

Yeah. Yeah, One really basic but important place to start with that question is to ask rather than offer. I guess offering is a form of asking, So let me rephrase that. I think it's to ask or offer rather than intervene. And I think people have a pang of compassion, a pang of concern, or of you know, a desire to be helpful, and then the mistake is to let that feeling motivate intervention, and that's when you end up grabbing somebody. I promise you this happens every day in every city in this country to a blind or disabled person. Or like you're sitting on the street corner, maybe not even trying to cross that way, but somebody's like sees the green light, sees the blind person like, okay, you're good to go. I'm gonna here we go. Like they grab the elbow and they pull, and it's like, I can't tell you how many black people have told me like I wasn't even trying to cross the street, like I was waiting for my taxi or whatever. Yeah, that's the problem is that it's an intervention, whereas if you just say, like, heyre trying to cross the street, can I give you some help? No, I'm good, and then okay, on your way, right.

I had something like that happened today. It was not even with the disabled person, but was at a restaurant and you were supposed to clear your own table, and there was a younger lady there who was holding a bunch of plates, and she clearly was struggling. And I didn't just go grab the plates and take them away. I said, can I help you? And she said sure, and then I took them. So I think you're you're absolutely right. It's probably a generally good idea in society across the board these days. Don't touch somebody just without with them. Seriously, there's very few times that's ever the right thing to do. I mean, I suppose if somebody's about to get run over by a car, perhaps grabbing them is a good idea, But in general, don't touch people without permission.

I had something like that happened today. It was not even with the disabled person, but was at a restaurant and you were supposed to clear your own table, and there was a younger lady there who was holding a bunch of plates, and she clearly was struggling. And I didn't just go grab the plates and take them away. I said, can I help you? And she said sure, and then I took them. So I think you're you're absolutely right. It's probably a generally good idea in society across the board these days. Don't touch somebody just without with them. Seriously, there's very few times that's ever the right thing to do. I mean, I suppose if somebody's about to get run over by a car, perhaps grabbing them is a good idea, But in general, don't touch people without permission.

One hundred percent. I have a friend who's blind who talked about how she actually loved one aspect of the pandemic and the sort of social distancing that it engendered because people just stopped touching her in the way that she was. So she lives in New York City and she was so sick of it, and suddenly, like twenty twenty comes around and people stopped like intervening into her life. And she also put it in those terms of I think kind of capitalizing in a good way on the me too movement. You know, she would say when somebody grabs her arm, like you don't have consent to touch me, which has a much different weight to.

One hundred percent. I have a friend who's blind who talked about how she actually loved one aspect of the pandemic and the sort of social distancing that it engendered because people just stopped touching her in the way that she was. So she lives in New York City and she was so sick of it, and suddenly, like twenty twenty comes around and people stopped like intervening into her life. And she also put it in those terms of I think kind of capitalizing in a good way on the me too movement. You know, she would say when somebody grabs her arm, like you don't have consent to touch me, which has a much different weight to.

It now it certainly does.

It now it certainly does.

I think it's smart. I think it's a good approach.

I think it's smart. I think it's a good approach.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect, what's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders stop and be present, can't it? If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise. I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash SMS and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you Feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash SMS and let's feed our good Wolves together. One of the great parts of the book is you're interacting with different parts of the blind world that are out there right the blind communities. And there's a group called the NFB that you talk about a lot. I'm going to read something else you wrote talking about them. They say the NFB philosophy straddles two seemingly opposing ideas. On the one hand, the organization argues that blindness is an incid general attribute that doesn't affect one's ability to accomplish nearly anything. On the other hand, they demand accommodation and special benefits for blind people. These two ideas are difficult to hold at the same time. Are the blind equal to everyone else? Or do they have special needs? And then you go on to say, but in practice they're not mutually exclusive. In fact of the central tensions of the American way of life, say more about any aspect of that that you would like to because there's a bunch of directions you could take that.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect, what's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders stop and be present, can't it? If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise. I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash SMS and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you Feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash SMS and let's feed our good Wolves together. One of the great parts of the book is you're interacting with different parts of the blind world that are out there right the blind communities. And there's a group called the NFB that you talk about a lot. I'm going to read something else you wrote talking about them. They say the NFB philosophy straddles two seemingly opposing ideas. On the one hand, the organization argues that blindness is an incid general attribute that doesn't affect one's ability to accomplish nearly anything. On the other hand, they demand accommodation and special benefits for blind people. These two ideas are difficult to hold at the same time. Are the blind equal to everyone else? Or do they have special needs? And then you go on to say, but in practice they're not mutually exclusive. In fact of the central tensions of the American way of life, say more about any aspect of that that you would like to because there's a bunch of directions you could take that.

Yeah, yeah, I mean the first thing that comes to mind, and it is this very complicated idea that I'm still wrestling with, but I think one thing that comes to mind is the way that one can remove the value judgment from an accommodation. So I think in the same way that we're talking about the sort of misplaced compassion, like we tend to think about accommodations as like something's wrong with you. I mean, this is reductive, but I do think it's an attitude that we see out there, like you have a problem, We're going to give you this accommodation to help solve that problem, right, Like you have special needs, right, And I think what the NFB is saying is like they're not really special needs. Like it's not like it's like tragic loss for me that I can't read print. It's just that as a blind person, print doesn't do much for me, so I need things in braille or an accessible format. And there's like a subtle shift, but I think it's an important one to just say, Like the word that they use a lot, which I think is really useful, is an alternative, like I actually need that in an alternative form. There's a philosopher whose name I forget, but I can send it to you later. But there's a philosopher who writes about disability, who talks about mere difference versus bad difference. And I think that's a really useful idea. So, like the idea of a mere difference is like, for example, with some exceptions, like being vegetarian, that's like a mirror difference.

Yeah, yeah, I mean the first thing that comes to mind, and it is this very complicated idea that I'm still wrestling with, but I think one thing that comes to mind is the way that one can remove the value judgment from an accommodation. So I think in the same way that we're talking about the sort of misplaced compassion, like we tend to think about accommodations as like something's wrong with you. I mean, this is reductive, but I do think it's an attitude that we see out there, like you have a problem, We're going to give you this accommodation to help solve that problem, right, Like you have special needs, right, And I think what the NFB is saying is like they're not really special needs. Like it's not like it's like tragic loss for me that I can't read print. It's just that as a blind person, print doesn't do much for me, so I need things in braille or an accessible format. And there's like a subtle shift, but I think it's an important one to just say, Like the word that they use a lot, which I think is really useful, is an alternative, like I actually need that in an alternative form. There's a philosopher whose name I forget, but I can send it to you later. But there's a philosopher who writes about disability, who talks about mere difference versus bad difference. And I think that's a really useful idea. So, like the idea of a mere difference is like, for example, with some exceptions, like being vegetarian, that's like a mirror difference.

Right.

Right.

It's not like we go to a restaurant and you're like, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that you're a vegetarian, Like maybe you know, maybe it's just like, oh, you happen to have different requirements for what you're going to eat for breakfast today, And I think like that idea. They're that like seeming paradox in what the NFB is saying there in terms of needing accommodations, but also not being different than anybody else. It's that kind of mere difference. It's like, yeah, I need you to set up the streets so that I can safely cross them, But that's not like unreasonable. It's just like, if you're going to make an inclusive society, you have to also think about us. It's an accommodation, but one that like everybody gets accommodated in their own way. Like when I was interviewing the president of the NFB, Mark WRIC a bono. Their headquarters are in Baltimore, and he said to me, you know, Andrew, we pay a very high electricity bill every month, and those lights that we have on all day on for us, you know, they're for the sighted folks who come. And that's a reasonable accommodation that we make for the side of people who come visit us, you know. And so that kind of reframing, I think helps you understand that kind of argument that they're making and.

It's not like we go to a restaurant and you're like, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that you're a vegetarian, Like maybe you know, maybe it's just like, oh, you happen to have different requirements for what you're going to eat for breakfast today, And I think like that idea. They're that like seeming paradox in what the NFB is saying there in terms of needing accommodations, but also not being different than anybody else. It's that kind of mere difference. It's like, yeah, I need you to set up the streets so that I can safely cross them, But that's not like unreasonable. It's just like, if you're going to make an inclusive society, you have to also think about us. It's an accommodation, but one that like everybody gets accommodated in their own way. Like when I was interviewing the president of the NFB, Mark WRIC a bono. Their headquarters are in Baltimore, and he said to me, you know, Andrew, we pay a very high electricity bill every month, and those lights that we have on all day on for us, you know, they're for the sighted folks who come. And that's a reasonable accommodation that we make for the side of people who come visit us, you know. And so that kind of reframing, I think helps you understand that kind of argument that they're making and.

I find it fascinating you talk about these mirror the central tensions of the American way of life, and you know, you say, our laws are in constant tension between personal liberty, and you make the example of the decision to live mask mandates in the middle of a pandemic and public welfare protecting the immunocompromise from a deadly virus. You know, like that there's not only a disability aspect to them, there's just a fundamental tension that we find in society.

I find it fascinating you talk about these mirror the central tensions of the American way of life, and you know, you say, our laws are in constant tension between personal liberty, and you make the example of the decision to live mask mandates in the middle of a pandemic and public welfare protecting the immunocompromise from a deadly virus. You know, like that there's not only a disability aspect to them, there's just a fundamental tension that we find in society.

Right. Yeah. One way that I've thought about it is like there's a circle of inclusion is too squishy of a word, almost, you know, a circle of care is also a squishy word, but like a circle of concern or even regard, like how much of the population are we considering with the sort of infrastructural decisions that we're making, you know, and there are norms like it's folly to try to argue that there isn't a majority, and there isn't like you know that most people have sight, Like clearly that's true, But then the question is always like, okay, well, how far are you going to extend the circle? Like and this is where you I think can find really clear, concrete examples of inequalities where who gets to sit at that center and get the sort of norm that doesn't even feel like an accommodation. It's just like a basic obvious right versus who has to agitate to push the circle wider. Yeah, I think that's a fundamental tension in American life and probably in just civic life anywhere in the world.

Right. Yeah. One way that I've thought about it is like there's a circle of inclusion is too squishy of a word, almost, you know, a circle of care is also a squishy word, but like a circle of concern or even regard, like how much of the population are we considering with the sort of infrastructural decisions that we're making, you know, and there are norms like it's folly to try to argue that there isn't a majority, and there isn't like you know that most people have sight, Like clearly that's true, But then the question is always like, okay, well, how far are you going to extend the circle? Like and this is where you I think can find really clear, concrete examples of inequalities where who gets to sit at that center and get the sort of norm that doesn't even feel like an accommodation. It's just like a basic obvious right versus who has to agitate to push the circle wider. Yeah, I think that's a fundamental tension in American life and probably in just civic life anywhere in the world.

While we're talking sort of about societal aspects of this, right, you make an interesting point, which is you're talking about, you know, the quality of a blind person's life, and you say that one of the most important factors is their socioeconomic standing. Say more about that.

While we're talking sort of about societal aspects of this, right, you make an interesting point, which is you're talking about, you know, the quality of a blind person's life, and you say that one of the most important factors is their socioeconomic standing. Say more about that.

Yeah, I think that when I started writing the book, I had this pretty naive sense that for me personally, you know, the book is at heart a memoir. You know, that I was becoming marginalized by blindness, and that I was using all of my privilege right, and that I'm like a economically privileged you know, white guy, cisgender, heterosexual, et cetera. Like all pretty much check all the boxes of privilege in the society. But what is me. I'm becoming blind and now like I'm going to see life from the other side, I'm going to experience life, and certainly I have anxieties about that, you know, And I look at the seventy percent unemployment figure, which is a really astonishing number that demands to be underlined. You know, seventy percent of blind people who are you know, working age don't have full time employment. And yet the more I researched and reported and hung out with blind communities, the more I realized that my privilege was kind of surprisingly intact in a lot of ways, and that you know, a lot of the inequities that we talk about in our society, like income inequality, remain the kind of most salient factors in a lot of ways. Another way to say it is that there's like an intersectional analysis you could make, right, like income and disability and race all kind of compound with each other, and so that for me, I could buy a braille display and like, I have the leisure time to teach myself braille, and that as a result, my employability is much higher than somebody who doesn't have access to braille because there's sort of there's documented studies that show that sort of employment success and brail are directly linked. And thinking about like oppression and what oppression looks like for a blind person, Like I think, just by virtue of all this privilege I've got, like I am far less likely to experience that kind of oppression, Which is not to say I don't experience like those kind of microaggressions we're talking about. Or certainly, like if I'm going to apply for a job as a podcast producer or a magazine editor or whatever, I might be applying for it tomorrow, there could very well be enable us personally. Their side of it says like, Okay, we've got three finalists, and like, are we really going to hire the blind guy? Right? You know, certainly I face that, But the more I thought about it, and the more I looked into it, the more complicated that question became, you know, and it feels not even retrospect. But I also think a lot of people do have this sense of disability as this kind of monolithic marginalization, and I think it is a lot more complicated with all of those other intersecting identities that complicate that picture.