The biggest problem in work is not what you don't know about work, it's what you don't know about yourself.

The biggest problem in work is not what you don't know about work, it's what you don't know about yourself.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Bruce Filer, the author of seven New York Times bestsellers, including Life Is in the Transitions, The Secret of Happy Families, and Counsel of Dads. His three TED talks have been viewed more than four million times, and Bruce has written for numerous publications, including The New York Times, The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, and Gourmet. Today, Eric and Bruce discuss his new book, The Search, Finding Meaningful Work in a Post Career World.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Bruce Filer, the author of seven New York Times bestsellers, including Life Is in the Transitions, The Secret of Happy Families, and Counsel of Dads. His three TED talks have been viewed more than four million times, and Bruce has written for numerous publications, including The New York Times, The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, and Gourmet. Today, Eric and Bruce discuss his new book, The Search, Finding Meaningful Work in a Post Career World.

Hi, Bruce, Welcome back to the show. Eric.

Hi, Bruce, Welcome back to the show. Eric.

It's such a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me back.

It's such a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me back.

Yeah, I'm really happy to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book called The Search, Finding Meaningful Work in a Post Career World. But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I'm really happy to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book called The Search, Finding Meaningful Work in a Post Career World. But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well, What I appreciate about this question, and in reflecting on it in advance of this conversation, and I think, of course, this is the wisdom that you found by asking this over and over again. And that's one thing that you and I share, is this interest in asking people the same question because the answers tend to surface very interesting patterns. But in reflecting on it, Eric, in advance of this conversation, I realized how much my answer is shaped by what I have been thinking about and the work I have been doing, and that the answer I'm about to give you today is going to be different than the answer I gave you when we spoke a few years back. And my answer is this. I'm fascinated that in the parable as it's written, that you have a grandparent and a grandchild talking, because, as you know, I've spent the last few years collecting and analyzing stories about work, and one of the things that I learned, maybe the central thing that I learned, is that we all have these stories that we tell ourselves about work, and they are shaped not just by our own experience, by all the people around us, both the people now our spouse is, our children, our bosses, our lovers, whomever they might be, but also by our ancestors, by our parents, and our teachers, and perhaps religious figures or coaches that we grew up with, and even by our ancestors. And so what strikes me about this today is that our stories are shaped by all of these people, and that there's a tension between the stories that we want to tell and the stories that other people want us to tell. And so my answer to this question today, Eric, is that we're not the only ones feeding the wolf. So we might feed the wolf that's about bravery and courage and the values that we want, but other people around us are feeding the wolves that are also nipping at our toes. And while there may not be greed and being self serving and some of these negative qualities, they have different wishes for our lives than we have. So the wolves are not zero sum. By feeding one, you don't starve the other, And in effect both are being fed at old times by us and by other people. And therefore our challenge is to make sure that the wolf that we want to listen to is being fed a little more and that we're listening a little more closely to that wolf than to the other wolf, which is also managing to survive no matter what we do.

Well, What I appreciate about this question, and in reflecting on it in advance of this conversation, and I think, of course, this is the wisdom that you found by asking this over and over again. And that's one thing that you and I share, is this interest in asking people the same question because the answers tend to surface very interesting patterns. But in reflecting on it, Eric, in advance of this conversation, I realized how much my answer is shaped by what I have been thinking about and the work I have been doing, and that the answer I'm about to give you today is going to be different than the answer I gave you when we spoke a few years back. And my answer is this. I'm fascinated that in the parable as it's written, that you have a grandparent and a grandchild talking, because, as you know, I've spent the last few years collecting and analyzing stories about work, and one of the things that I learned, maybe the central thing that I learned, is that we all have these stories that we tell ourselves about work, and they are shaped not just by our own experience, by all the people around us, both the people now our spouse is, our children, our bosses, our lovers, whomever they might be, but also by our ancestors, by our parents, and our teachers, and perhaps religious figures or coaches that we grew up with, and even by our ancestors. And so what strikes me about this today is that our stories are shaped by all of these people, and that there's a tension between the stories that we want to tell and the stories that other people want us to tell. And so my answer to this question today, Eric, is that we're not the only ones feeding the wolf. So we might feed the wolf that's about bravery and courage and the values that we want, but other people around us are feeding the wolves that are also nipping at our toes. And while there may not be greed and being self serving and some of these negative qualities, they have different wishes for our lives than we have. So the wolves are not zero sum. By feeding one, you don't starve the other, And in effect both are being fed at old times by us and by other people. And therefore our challenge is to make sure that the wolf that we want to listen to is being fed a little more and that we're listening a little more closely to that wolf than to the other wolf, which is also managing to survive no matter what we do.

That's a great way of looking at it and really thinking about the things that we want and we desire, and all of that comes from within, but it also comes from without.

That's a great way of looking at it and really thinking about the things that we want and we desire, and all of that comes from within, but it also comes from without.

Bingo, and that can be both.

Bingo, and that can be both.

Our ancestors, parents and all that, but the culture as a whole and all of that. And as you were talking, I had a moment. It's funny how we can be blind on things with ourselves up to a certain point, because I was thinking about the grandparent when you said grandparent and grandchild. I thought about it in terms of your book work, and I was like, you know, the last thing in the world it would work today would be for a grandparent to try and teach their grandchild today about the nature of work and how to succeed in our time. A grandparent is so far out of touch at this point. And I remember thinking that a little bit with my parents, like they still think that I'm safer with a corporate job than I'm a consulting career, right, And yet I somehow was fool enough to think that perhaps I wasn't out of touch when it would come to my son. And I just had a moment where I was like, of course you are to some degree of course you are like, yeah, I've been playing with chat GPT. Yeah, I'm pretty down with it. But of course I am.

Our ancestors, parents and all that, but the culture as a whole and all of that. And as you were talking, I had a moment. It's funny how we can be blind on things with ourselves up to a certain point, because I was thinking about the grandparent when you said grandparent and grandchild. I thought about it in terms of your book work, and I was like, you know, the last thing in the world it would work today would be for a grandparent to try and teach their grandchild today about the nature of work and how to succeed in our time. A grandparent is so far out of touch at this point. And I remember thinking that a little bit with my parents, like they still think that I'm safer with a corporate job than I'm a consulting career, right, And yet I somehow was fool enough to think that perhaps I wasn't out of touch when it would come to my son. And I just had a moment where I was like, of course you are to some degree of course you are like, yeah, I've been playing with chat GPT. Yeah, I'm pretty down with it. But of course I am.

You know, I love that. I love everything about that, and I love the vulnerability, and I love the truth telling here right, you know, as you know, I mean, my book opens really with a story of me. I grew up in Savannah, Georgia and a family business, and every Saturday morning I had to get up and you know, put my work clothes on. I mean, it wasn't coat and tie, but I had to get dressed up, go to my grandparents' house, which was immediately behind the house where I grew up in. You know, we used to joke it was like out of Faulkner. And my grandmother would make breakfast and I would drive in my grandfather's fort. He drove seven miles an hour down Haberstrom Street and Savannah, Georgia, and I would go and sit behind a desk and in this case take rent payments from people who lived in the apartments and homes that my family built, like eighteen dollars, twenty two dollars, twenty six dollars, and I'd have to record these in a ledger, and my grandfather in his Oxford's and you know, you know, nineteen thirties clothes, would be sitting there with his hand on my shoulder, like, you know, bragging about my grades and penmanship. And that was the world that I grew up in. And the message was very clear. The most important thing in life is work, right, Not family, not love, not self expression, not giving back, not service. It was work, but in a very specific kind of linear, industrial, hair tonic and kind of masculine way. And I think a lot of what's going on in work today is the fact that that is the story that we've told in this country ever since Benjamin Franklin. And you know, this is a huge theme of these conversations that I had, the you know, five hundred hours of interviews that I collected and the now fifteen thousand pages that I have of life stories, is that we've told one story of success since the very beginning, and it's all about up right, rags to riches, up by your bootstraps, higher floor, bigger salary, greater benefits, better view. And it turns out that the people who are happiest, who are the most fulfilled, who get the most meaning out of work, they don't climb, they dig. They do this what I call personal archaeology, which is to excavate these parables and homilies and wisdom and expectations that they inherited from their parents, that they took in from their surroundings, maybe that they listened to in their religious institutions, or learned on the ball field or the ballet theater, wherever it might be. And the real challenge is to make sure you're not chasing someone else's dream, You're chasing your own dream. But the challenge is learning to identify what is it that brings you meaning, which is why the essence of this book is a set of tools I call them twenty one questions to find work you love that will help you figure out what is the story you want to tell, Because the story that people of our generation have been telling is the story that we were expected to tell, and invariably it's different. And almost everyone I know, and absolutely everyone I interviewed, hit a moment in their life where they realized that they were at crossroads. Do they want to tell someone else's story or do they want to tell their own?

You know, I love that. I love everything about that, and I love the vulnerability, and I love the truth telling here right, you know, as you know, I mean, my book opens really with a story of me. I grew up in Savannah, Georgia and a family business, and every Saturday morning I had to get up and you know, put my work clothes on. I mean, it wasn't coat and tie, but I had to get dressed up, go to my grandparents' house, which was immediately behind the house where I grew up in. You know, we used to joke it was like out of Faulkner. And my grandmother would make breakfast and I would drive in my grandfather's fort. He drove seven miles an hour down Haberstrom Street and Savannah, Georgia, and I would go and sit behind a desk and in this case take rent payments from people who lived in the apartments and homes that my family built, like eighteen dollars, twenty two dollars, twenty six dollars, and I'd have to record these in a ledger, and my grandfather in his Oxford's and you know, you know, nineteen thirties clothes, would be sitting there with his hand on my shoulder, like, you know, bragging about my grades and penmanship. And that was the world that I grew up in. And the message was very clear. The most important thing in life is work, right, Not family, not love, not self expression, not giving back, not service. It was work, but in a very specific kind of linear, industrial, hair tonic and kind of masculine way. And I think a lot of what's going on in work today is the fact that that is the story that we've told in this country ever since Benjamin Franklin. And you know, this is a huge theme of these conversations that I had, the you know, five hundred hours of interviews that I collected and the now fifteen thousand pages that I have of life stories, is that we've told one story of success since the very beginning, and it's all about up right, rags to riches, up by your bootstraps, higher floor, bigger salary, greater benefits, better view. And it turns out that the people who are happiest, who are the most fulfilled, who get the most meaning out of work, they don't climb, they dig. They do this what I call personal archaeology, which is to excavate these parables and homilies and wisdom and expectations that they inherited from their parents, that they took in from their surroundings, maybe that they listened to in their religious institutions, or learned on the ball field or the ballet theater, wherever it might be. And the real challenge is to make sure you're not chasing someone else's dream, You're chasing your own dream. But the challenge is learning to identify what is it that brings you meaning, which is why the essence of this book is a set of tools I call them twenty one questions to find work you love that will help you figure out what is the story you want to tell, Because the story that people of our generation have been telling is the story that we were expected to tell, and invariably it's different. And almost everyone I know, and absolutely everyone I interviewed, hit a moment in their life where they realized that they were at crossroads. Do they want to tell someone else's story or do they want to tell their own?

Yeah, it's interesting, I'm reflecting on my own work life and I sort of was pursuing my own life up until I was twenty four and a homeless heroin addict, right, and I thought I wanted to be a musician. I wanted to be this free spirit and that.

Yeah, it's interesting, I'm reflecting on my own work life and I sort of was pursuing my own life up until I was twenty four and a homeless heroin addict, right, and I thought I wanted to be a musician. I wanted to be this free spirit and that.

Crashed and burned.

Crashed and burned.

And it just occurred to me that what happened is when that crashed and burned, what stepped in almost immediately was.

And it just occurred to me that what happened is when that crashed and burned, what stepped in almost immediately was.

All these default stories.

All these default stories.

Wow.

Wow.

The minute that I walked into a professional setting and saw a path ahead of me, that dominant paradigm, Yes, wow, get this, get that, go this way, learn more, get a raised, get promoted. That that just slid right in and took over for a long time until I was able to ask better questions about what do I really want? And it's just amazing how it was kind of just waiting for me.

The minute that I walked into a professional setting and saw a path ahead of me, that dominant paradigm, Yes, wow, get this, get that, go this way, learn more, get a raised, get promoted. That that just slid right in and took over for a long time until I was able to ask better questions about what do I really want? And it's just amazing how it was kind of just waiting for me.

Well, first of all, again, I just appreciate the way you communicate, and you're this to be vulnerable and to tell that story. So let me just pause a little and acknowledge this. You and I haven't planned this conversation, but I'll tell you what I hear. Having you know, collected life stories, now four hundred of them in the last six years, is you know, number one the idea that we are sold, certainly those of us, you know forty plus, which was the dominant idea, which is that there is a linear life right where the biggest transformations in our lives happen on birthdays that end in zero. That is not a reflection of how we actually live. Okay, These events did not necessarily happened on round birthdays. They happened when they happened. Maybe in your case, when you hit rock bottom as an addict, then you got onto a traditional linear path and then you realize you don't have to stay on this path forever. And that's completely consistent. So I'll put it in the language of the search that I sort of tried to sort of put some structure to this. And the way I would say it is, you know, there are three lives about work that we are sold. Lie number one, that you have a career. Okay. The career was an idea. It never existed in human history. Most people lived where they worked, and worked where they lived, and they were farmers and they made their candles and they made their food and they raised their animals like that's how it was. The idea of career was born actually in nineteen oh nine by a guy named Frank Parsons who invented career counseling as a way to accommodate people who left the farms and moved to cities, or people who emigrated from abroad and immigrated into this country and found themselves in the cities and they needed jobs. So you had a bunch of new jobs in the industrial world and a bunch of new people looking for jobs. And so they invented the career, and then fifty years later they invented an idea to manifest that linear career, which was their resume, something that also never existed essentially before the nineteen fifties. Okay, So now what's going on is that that doesn't capture how it is today because the career is built on the idea, as you use the language in this conversation, a path or a ladder. Okay, that's bunk. Okay. The average person goes to what I call a workquake. Okay, a work quake is a moment of reconsideration or reevaluation or change, or some inflection point through twenty in the course of our lives, that's one every two point eight five years, every two years and ten months and by the way, xers go through that more than boomers, millennials more than exers, Zers more than millennials, women more than men, diverse workers more than non diverse workers, which means the number is only going higher. So if the average person in general goes through twenty the average millennial goes through twenty five. Okay. And here I think is the signature piece of data that your story is captured, and that is the majority of all workwaks. Fifty five percent occur outside begin initiate. The energy behind them begins outside the workplace. So it's not something is wrong with a company, or you get downsized, or you don't like your boss or whatever. It's something happens in your personal life, or something happens with a loved one okay, Or you have a change of mind, or you have a mental health challenge, or you decide to turn towards sobriety. So in this battle between life and work that we always talk about balancing, that's just the wrong metaphor, because it turns out today people choose life over work, and life is a bigger influence on our work. So you can't leave your life out that people are happiness learn to integrate. And I think your story is a perfect example. Two mindset changes are what produced the big work changes. It's not the other way around. The biggest problem in work is not what you don't know about work, it's what you don't know about yourself.

Well, first of all, again, I just appreciate the way you communicate, and you're this to be vulnerable and to tell that story. So let me just pause a little and acknowledge this. You and I haven't planned this conversation, but I'll tell you what I hear. Having you know, collected life stories, now four hundred of them in the last six years, is you know, number one the idea that we are sold, certainly those of us, you know forty plus, which was the dominant idea, which is that there is a linear life right where the biggest transformations in our lives happen on birthdays that end in zero. That is not a reflection of how we actually live. Okay, These events did not necessarily happened on round birthdays. They happened when they happened. Maybe in your case, when you hit rock bottom as an addict, then you got onto a traditional linear path and then you realize you don't have to stay on this path forever. And that's completely consistent. So I'll put it in the language of the search that I sort of tried to sort of put some structure to this. And the way I would say it is, you know, there are three lives about work that we are sold. Lie number one, that you have a career. Okay. The career was an idea. It never existed in human history. Most people lived where they worked, and worked where they lived, and they were farmers and they made their candles and they made their food and they raised their animals like that's how it was. The idea of career was born actually in nineteen oh nine by a guy named Frank Parsons who invented career counseling as a way to accommodate people who left the farms and moved to cities, or people who emigrated from abroad and immigrated into this country and found themselves in the cities and they needed jobs. So you had a bunch of new jobs in the industrial world and a bunch of new people looking for jobs. And so they invented the career, and then fifty years later they invented an idea to manifest that linear career, which was their resume, something that also never existed essentially before the nineteen fifties. Okay, So now what's going on is that that doesn't capture how it is today because the career is built on the idea, as you use the language in this conversation, a path or a ladder. Okay, that's bunk. Okay. The average person goes to what I call a workquake. Okay, a work quake is a moment of reconsideration or reevaluation or change, or some inflection point through twenty in the course of our lives, that's one every two point eight five years, every two years and ten months and by the way, xers go through that more than boomers, millennials more than exers, Zers more than millennials, women more than men, diverse workers more than non diverse workers, which means the number is only going higher. So if the average person in general goes through twenty the average millennial goes through twenty five. Okay. And here I think is the signature piece of data that your story is captured, and that is the majority of all workwaks. Fifty five percent occur outside begin initiate. The energy behind them begins outside the workplace. So it's not something is wrong with a company, or you get downsized, or you don't like your boss or whatever. It's something happens in your personal life, or something happens with a loved one okay, Or you have a change of mind, or you have a mental health challenge, or you decide to turn towards sobriety. So in this battle between life and work that we always talk about balancing, that's just the wrong metaphor, because it turns out today people choose life over work, and life is a bigger influence on our work. So you can't leave your life out that people are happiness learn to integrate. And I think your story is a perfect example. Two mindset changes are what produced the big work changes. It's not the other way around. The biggest problem in work is not what you don't know about work, it's what you don't know about yourself.

I want to jump ahead to a different point in the book. There's so many great places we could go here, but I want to jump to an idea that you talk about and you talk about that people have jobs, and that one of your other lies is you have a job, right and you say, no, you don't. You have a lot of jobs. And we could talk about the different types of jobs. There's the job that we get paid for, there's the job that we wish we could have. There's all these different things, and we'll get into that. But I want to ask a question this work in life not being a balance but being blended together and starting to look at things like dealing with personal challenge as a job, dealing with taking care of our parents as a job. What is not a job under that rubric?

I want to jump ahead to a different point in the book. There's so many great places we could go here, but I want to jump to an idea that you talk about and you talk about that people have jobs, and that one of your other lies is you have a job, right and you say, no, you don't. You have a lot of jobs. And we could talk about the different types of jobs. There's the job that we get paid for, there's the job that we wish we could have. There's all these different things, and we'll get into that. But I want to ask a question this work in life not being a balance but being blended together and starting to look at things like dealing with personal challenge as a job, dealing with taking care of our parents as a job. What is not a job under that rubric?

That's a fascinating question. Let me work my way toward that by sort of setting the frame. Okay, okay, you just summarized it, but I'll just sharpen the point. Okay, So they're three lives, right. You have a career, you don't have a career. Some people do. Some people pick something at twenty one and do it for forty years. But for the vast majority of us, that's no longer a relevant and helpful way of looking at it. You have a path, you don't have a path. You can get on the path, you can get off the path, especially helpful for women, right, because it used to be I'm going to get off the path and spend time raising my children or caring for an aging relative, and I accept that I'll never get back on the path. That was an absurd choice we asked people to make, because, especially if someone's about to be an empty nester, you can get back on the path whenever you want. When there's no path, there's no penalty for getting off the path. And the third is that you have a job. Right. And so again, this paradigm was never used throughout human history. Okay, so the word job wasn't even popularized, didn't even enter the language, frankly until the early modern era. And then it meant a task. Okay, if we jump ahead, that's how it's used now. But the idea of a job as something that you do during the day for which you get paid, which is sort of what the economists call it, that basically doesn't enter human consciousness or the lexicon again until the industrial era, where you sort of had something you did during the day and then went home.

That's a fascinating question. Let me work my way toward that by sort of setting the frame. Okay, okay, you just summarized it, but I'll just sharpen the point. Okay, So they're three lives, right. You have a career, you don't have a career. Some people do. Some people pick something at twenty one and do it for forty years. But for the vast majority of us, that's no longer a relevant and helpful way of looking at it. You have a path, you don't have a path. You can get on the path, you can get off the path, especially helpful for women, right, because it used to be I'm going to get off the path and spend time raising my children or caring for an aging relative, and I accept that I'll never get back on the path. That was an absurd choice we asked people to make, because, especially if someone's about to be an empty nester, you can get back on the path whenever you want. When there's no path, there's no penalty for getting off the path. And the third is that you have a job. Right. And so again, this paradigm was never used throughout human history. Okay, so the word job wasn't even popularized, didn't even enter the language, frankly until the early modern era. And then it meant a task. Okay, if we jump ahead, that's how it's used now. But the idea of a job as something that you do during the day for which you get paid, which is sort of what the economists call it, that basically doesn't enter human consciousness or the lexicon again until the industrial era, where you sort of had something you did during the day and then went home.

But can I ask a question about that real quick?

But can I ask a question about that real quick?

Yeah? Sure, So you're.

Yeah? Sure, So you're.

Sort of saying that this idea of career job entered the lexicon around the time of the Industrial Revolution, and before that it didn't really exist. What was someone who is like a blacksmith? There were trades before then throughout human history now not before ten thousand years ago, more or less. But how do those compare? I'm just kind of curious.

Sort of saying that this idea of career job entered the lexicon around the time of the Industrial Revolution, and before that it didn't really exist. What was someone who is like a blacksmith? There were trades before then throughout human history now not before ten thousand years ago, more or less. But how do those compare? I'm just kind of curious.

Well, okay, so how the word was originally used for a blacksmith, which was this was a task or a set of skills or ways that you spent your time. That is still in the dictionary today, and that's essentially how we've come to use it today. So the implication with a job was that you went and you did this one thing for which you got paid, and then you went home and did nothing, or then you went home and you did work for which you were not paid. Right, So what this does is it devalues. And this was sort of an idea that post feminist scholar is introduced in the seventies and the eighties, which is, it's a job to clean your bathroom, it's a job to clean up after the kids. Right, it's a job to make dinner, except that just happens to be unpaid labor. Right. And so this is an idea that's been building and now I think it just goes a lot further. Okay, which gets to the heart of your question. So you know the words, you could be a blacksmith during the day, but then you're a parent at night age, right, But now that usage and I'll get to the core of question about what's not a job, because I think that's a very interesting question. I'm going to have to reflect on that. But so now the way we use it, the way that I think that we should use it, is that we have to acknowledge that in the balance between you know, life and work. And so somebody's life has won, as I said, but one of the things we've done is we've jobified life. Okay, so job becomes what we do. So anybody who's a parent of a kid in travel soccer knows that their job is to be that parent, right, and maybe they have to bring the snacks on Saturday, right, or you know, get the hotel rooms for the boys, right. Serving on the co op board, okay, working on your social media, that's a job for a lot of people. Anybody who's a parent who has two working parents, as I did when my kids were young, knows, Okay, your job is bathtime and my job is bedtime. This is how people use it today, So we don't have one. So what are the five jobs? The five jobs are main job, and by the way, half of us even have a main job anymore. Two thirds of us have a care job that's caring for an aging relative or a neighbor or a child. Three quarters of us have a side job, which we talk about a lot. But there are these two other categories that you mentioned that I've come to name because I kept hearing about them. Eighty six percent of us have a hope job, which is something that we're doing that we hope becomes something else, right, like writing a screenplay or starting a book. I know you're starting a book, right, or you know, selling jewelry on Etsy or pickles at the farmer's market, or like that's a hope job. But it then turns out there's another job, which is an invisible time suck that feels like a job, like battling sobriety or discrimination or imposter syndrome, or you know, learning money management skills that you're anxious that you don't have. I call that a ghost job. That's ninety three percent of us, and that takes up to twelve hours a week. So one way of looking at this is, oh, my god, everything is work, which is sort of the implication of your question, and like, we work too hard. But I don't think that's the right way to look at That's sort not the people I talk to look at The way the people I talk to look at it is what's non negotiable is this sort of basic frame that I have. And maybe like the primary takeaway here, right, which is fewer people are searching merely for work anymore. More, people are searching for work with meaning. Right, we are transitioning from a means based economy to a meaning based economy. The thing that's non negotiable is the meaning. Now for some people that meaning may be money and hallelujah, I'm sending two kids to college. You know, I get it right, That meaning maybe freedom or responsibility or taking care of your family or self confidence or whatever. And for some people that's their sense of meaning. But for very few people is that their sense of meaning all the time. Okay, maybe when they're younger it's more adventure and experience or self expression. Maybe when they're older it's giving back. So people are oscillating and how they allot the meaning, and that's really what's going on here. So maybe we have our main job because we need a salary and the benefit to whatever, and maybe we do our side job or a hope job for meaning, and so that's what's not negotiable. So on the one hand, I get the spirit of this. What's not your job? Recreation? You know, gardening may not be your job. You know, watching Game of Thrones may not be your job. But you know, you and I were talking before we came on the air about exercise. Right, for some people that's a release and something when they're off, But for a lot of people, that's a job, you know, like self care is a ghost job for people, right, you know, managing their weight or you know, a physical ailment of some kind. So I think that the spirit of your question is is everything work? I get it. I would push back a little bit, and I would say, by raising these things of our lives to jobs, we downplay the weight of meaning we have only to take from our main job.

Well, okay, so how the word was originally used for a blacksmith, which was this was a task or a set of skills or ways that you spent your time. That is still in the dictionary today, and that's essentially how we've come to use it today. So the implication with a job was that you went and you did this one thing for which you got paid, and then you went home and did nothing, or then you went home and you did work for which you were not paid. Right, So what this does is it devalues. And this was sort of an idea that post feminist scholar is introduced in the seventies and the eighties, which is, it's a job to clean your bathroom, it's a job to clean up after the kids. Right, it's a job to make dinner, except that just happens to be unpaid labor. Right. And so this is an idea that's been building and now I think it just goes a lot further. Okay, which gets to the heart of your question. So you know the words, you could be a blacksmith during the day, but then you're a parent at night age, right, But now that usage and I'll get to the core of question about what's not a job, because I think that's a very interesting question. I'm going to have to reflect on that. But so now the way we use it, the way that I think that we should use it, is that we have to acknowledge that in the balance between you know, life and work. And so somebody's life has won, as I said, but one of the things we've done is we've jobified life. Okay, so job becomes what we do. So anybody who's a parent of a kid in travel soccer knows that their job is to be that parent, right, and maybe they have to bring the snacks on Saturday, right, or you know, get the hotel rooms for the boys, right. Serving on the co op board, okay, working on your social media, that's a job for a lot of people. Anybody who's a parent who has two working parents, as I did when my kids were young, knows, Okay, your job is bathtime and my job is bedtime. This is how people use it today, So we don't have one. So what are the five jobs? The five jobs are main job, and by the way, half of us even have a main job anymore. Two thirds of us have a care job that's caring for an aging relative or a neighbor or a child. Three quarters of us have a side job, which we talk about a lot. But there are these two other categories that you mentioned that I've come to name because I kept hearing about them. Eighty six percent of us have a hope job, which is something that we're doing that we hope becomes something else, right, like writing a screenplay or starting a book. I know you're starting a book, right, or you know, selling jewelry on Etsy or pickles at the farmer's market, or like that's a hope job. But it then turns out there's another job, which is an invisible time suck that feels like a job, like battling sobriety or discrimination or imposter syndrome, or you know, learning money management skills that you're anxious that you don't have. I call that a ghost job. That's ninety three percent of us, and that takes up to twelve hours a week. So one way of looking at this is, oh, my god, everything is work, which is sort of the implication of your question, and like, we work too hard. But I don't think that's the right way to look at That's sort not the people I talk to look at The way the people I talk to look at it is what's non negotiable is this sort of basic frame that I have. And maybe like the primary takeaway here, right, which is fewer people are searching merely for work anymore. More, people are searching for work with meaning. Right, we are transitioning from a means based economy to a meaning based economy. The thing that's non negotiable is the meaning. Now for some people that meaning may be money and hallelujah, I'm sending two kids to college. You know, I get it right, That meaning maybe freedom or responsibility or taking care of your family or self confidence or whatever. And for some people that's their sense of meaning. But for very few people is that their sense of meaning all the time. Okay, maybe when they're younger it's more adventure and experience or self expression. Maybe when they're older it's giving back. So people are oscillating and how they allot the meaning, and that's really what's going on here. So maybe we have our main job because we need a salary and the benefit to whatever, and maybe we do our side job or a hope job for meaning, and so that's what's not negotiable. So on the one hand, I get the spirit of this. What's not your job? Recreation? You know, gardening may not be your job. You know, watching Game of Thrones may not be your job. But you know, you and I were talking before we came on the air about exercise. Right, for some people that's a release and something when they're off, But for a lot of people, that's a job, you know, like self care is a ghost job for people, right, you know, managing their weight or you know, a physical ailment of some kind. So I think that the spirit of your question is is everything work? I get it. I would push back a little bit, and I would say, by raising these things of our lives to jobs, we downplay the weight of meaning we have only to take from our main job.

That makes sense. Yeah, and I think you intuited some of kind of where I was going with that, which is the word job for a lot of us is a pejorative term, right.

That makes sense. Yeah, and I think you intuited some of kind of where I was going with that, which is the word job for a lot of us is a pejorative term, right.

The garden of eden, you know, like the penalty for getting kicked out of the garden eeden is work, you know, like the job, you know work. These come from the you know, Greek and Latin words for torture and misery. So yeah, every story we've ever told, you know, kind of work is a penalty.

The garden of eden, you know, like the penalty for getting kicked out of the garden eeden is work, you know, like the job, you know work. These come from the you know, Greek and Latin words for torture and misery. So yeah, every story we've ever told, you know, kind of work is a penalty.

The way we talk to ourselves about things matters. And if I'm heading into waters that aren't alt lining with the core ideas you're trying to get here, we can steer back on. But the way we talk to ourselves about things matter. So, for example, you've got two kids you just mentioned who were going off to college. Right, There are times that being a parent feels like this amazing wonderful, deeply meaningful thing, and there are times that it feels like a.

The way we talk to ourselves about things matters. And if I'm heading into waters that aren't alt lining with the core ideas you're trying to get here, we can steer back on. But the way we talk to ourselves about things matter. So, for example, you've got two kids you just mentioned who were going off to college. Right, There are times that being a parent feels like this amazing wonderful, deeply meaningful thing, and there are times that it feels like a.

Job and of the word yes. Yeah.

Job and of the word yes. Yeah.

What I know for myself, though, is the more that I reflected on the former, the meaning elements of it, the choice elements of it, and the less I thought of it in the latter as a job, the more I felt like it contributed and gave meaning to my life, and the less it felt like something I had to do. So in that framework, talk to me a little bit about how we can use this framework of seeing more of these things as jobs, which I think to your point, the important lesson is that we don't only think about our main job as our job and everything else is second. Everything else has to fall in behind. That you're saying that doesn't make sense anymore.

What I know for myself, though, is the more that I reflected on the former, the meaning elements of it, the choice elements of it, and the less I thought of it in the latter as a job, the more I felt like it contributed and gave meaning to my life, and the less it felt like something I had to do. So in that framework, talk to me a little bit about how we can use this framework of seeing more of these things as jobs, which I think to your point, the important lesson is that we don't only think about our main job as our job and everything else is second. Everything else has to fall in behind. That you're saying that doesn't make sense anymore.

I just want to.

I just want to.

Also think about how do we not use that way of thinking to turn all these other things in our lives into something we quote unquote have to do because we are making choices about what we do do.

Also think about how do we not use that way of thinking to turn all these other things in our lives into something we quote unquote have to do because we are making choices about what we do do.

I like the word do a lot. Actually it's not a great word, a writerly word or talkerly word, or whatever the word you want to say is. But when I realize that these are the three lines about work. Right, you have a career, you have a path, you have a job. I actually set out to write a book without using the words career or path or job, and it's actually challenging. And so I came back to this issue of what it is that we do, Okay, and so if those are the three lies, what is the one truth? Right? So, then the one truth is that only you can decide what story of work you want to tell, what makes you a success? You know. The sort of next level of this one truth is that the answer is already inside you, and you can't find it by asking somebody else. You can't find it by going to a counselor. I talked to the guy who invented the cutting edge of modern career counseling, which is called narrative career construction, the idea you have to construct the story. And he says, when I meet somebody, I know within five minutes what the answer is, but I don't want to tell them. I want them to discover it inside themselves. So that's what we're doing. And then this is in a sense, the first book that I know of that's written with the idea of helping you excavate and tell the story that you want to tell. And so I'm perfectly happy not using the word job, okay, and say, how is it that you want to spend your time to get what it is that you want? Okay? And then, as you know, the second half of my book is essentially I call it twenty one questions to find work that you love. And the first one and you heard me flipping the pages perhaps when you were talking. I was looking to the book this morning, writing an excerpt that's going to appear in the Wall Street Journal in the next two weeks as we tape this conversation. And the first question that I asked when I started these interviews was oscars, Eric, tell me the upsides of work, the values of work that you learned from your parents. While you're thinking, these are a series of questions to understand what are the hidden legacies of work that you're carrying around that we don't spend enough time talking about. So what would the upsides are values of work you learned from your parents.

I like the word do a lot. Actually it's not a great word, a writerly word or talkerly word, or whatever the word you want to say is. But when I realize that these are the three lines about work. Right, you have a career, you have a path, you have a job. I actually set out to write a book without using the words career or path or job, and it's actually challenging. And so I came back to this issue of what it is that we do, Okay, and so if those are the three lies, what is the one truth? Right? So, then the one truth is that only you can decide what story of work you want to tell, what makes you a success? You know. The sort of next level of this one truth is that the answer is already inside you, and you can't find it by asking somebody else. You can't find it by going to a counselor. I talked to the guy who invented the cutting edge of modern career counseling, which is called narrative career construction, the idea you have to construct the story. And he says, when I meet somebody, I know within five minutes what the answer is, but I don't want to tell them. I want them to discover it inside themselves. So that's what we're doing. And then this is in a sense, the first book that I know of that's written with the idea of helping you excavate and tell the story that you want to tell. And so I'm perfectly happy not using the word job, okay, and say, how is it that you want to spend your time to get what it is that you want? Okay? And then, as you know, the second half of my book is essentially I call it twenty one questions to find work that you love. And the first one and you heard me flipping the pages perhaps when you were talking. I was looking to the book this morning, writing an excerpt that's going to appear in the Wall Street Journal in the next two weeks as we tape this conversation. And the first question that I asked when I started these interviews was oscars, Eric, tell me the upsides of work, the values of work that you learned from your parents. While you're thinking, these are a series of questions to understand what are the hidden legacies of work that you're carrying around that we don't spend enough time talking about. So what would the upsides are values of work you learned from your parents.

It's a great question because I would say, and I did say this recently, my father passed recently and we didn't have the best relationship. We were very different people. But upon reflecting what did I learn from my father? One of the things I said I learned from my father was that I got a really good work ethic. But now that you ask me what the upside is, ah, I'm suddenly a little bit more. You know, like, this is not what I'm going to say at the funeral, perhaps, but you.

It's a great question because I would say, and I did say this recently, my father passed recently and we didn't have the best relationship. We were very different people. But upon reflecting what did I learn from my father? One of the things I said I learned from my father was that I got a really good work ethic. But now that you ask me what the upside is, ah, I'm suddenly a little bit more. You know, like, this is not what I'm going to say at the funeral, perhaps, but you.

Know what's the downside?

Know what's the downside?

Exactly? It's both, right, It's absolutely both.

Exactly? It's both, right, It's absolutely both.

Okay, sore just listening to us in this podcast. I'm raising my arms in the air because this is the point that I wanted to make. I'm cutting off a little bit because I'm so moved by your answer. And I also lost my father recently, so my heart goes out to you. So I started asking people at the outset of this thing, tell me the upsides you learned about your work or you know, values you were uned for your parents, and basically everybody we've got a code of cutified. So here it is on page one sixty four of the search. It's two thirds of people said hard work. And you know, without being demeaning to you, I'm like, Okay, this is really boring. Everyone's telling me the same answer. It's not Therefore, not telling me anything. And then I started asking what are the downsides? Of course you intuited it because you're good at this, and guess what The number one answer was overwork? Okay, So the upsides sixty seven percent hard work, seventeen percent love what you do. In other words, I sold my soul to a corporation, right, or you know, you better love what you do, and then sixteen percent be true to yourself. Okay. The downsides maction, more tightly bunch thirty one percent, overwork twenty five percent, the strain on the family. Right, they were working so hard they didn't pay attention to me. Okay, this is something that we all know or know people who experience. And then another quarter said they were unhappy. They worked all the time, but they run happy and they didn't value happiness. So I think that this is what's interesting. Okay. So we all have this ambivalent feeling toward work that we're carrying around within us that we never articulate. That gets to what we were just talking about, which is why job is a loaded pejorative term. Because we looked at our parents and they were unhappy, either because they had a job or often the case of moms because maybe they didn't have a job. So as you know, what are we trying to accomplish her. We're trying to write a work story. I mean. One of the interesting things to me is that storytelling as of value is kind of all over cotemporary culture. Like it's gone from like nowhere to like your life is a story. My last book, Life Is, and the Transitions is all about it became a bestseller, a Ted talk with two million views. You know, I teach a Ted course on managing transitions. I get that it resonates, But for whatever reason, we haven't carried this into work. Like the idea of a work story is not a phrase I would say, that's just sort of a breast in the world right or popular in the cultures. But if you want to tell a story what we're talking about here, what are the ways to do it? Well, the number one way to do it the teacher and journalism school is what I call the Kipling questions because of Rodyard Kipling, Who, what, when, where, why? And how? Okay? Those are the six questions. The problem in work is that we only ask one question, how okay. I've just had a work quake. I'm looking for a job, How do I do it? And what do they tell you? Beef up your resume, call your contacts, you know, your close contacts and you're distant contacts. You know, go on the internet. Here's the problem with that. You'll succeed, you'll find a job, and in two point eight five years you'll be unhappy again because you're not getting to the thing. How is the last question you asked? The first question should be who you know? Who are your who's who are the influential voices in your head? And then the second question is what what is your what? Okay? And then that gets to me one of the best questions in this whole process, which is who were your role models as a child and what did you admire about them? So I'm going to ask you to do this again. So Eric, you're then family. Who were your role models as a child?

Okay, sore just listening to us in this podcast. I'm raising my arms in the air because this is the point that I wanted to make. I'm cutting off a little bit because I'm so moved by your answer. And I also lost my father recently, so my heart goes out to you. So I started asking people at the outset of this thing, tell me the upsides you learned about your work or you know, values you were uned for your parents, and basically everybody we've got a code of cutified. So here it is on page one sixty four of the search. It's two thirds of people said hard work. And you know, without being demeaning to you, I'm like, Okay, this is really boring. Everyone's telling me the same answer. It's not Therefore, not telling me anything. And then I started asking what are the downsides? Of course you intuited it because you're good at this, and guess what The number one answer was overwork? Okay, So the upsides sixty seven percent hard work, seventeen percent love what you do. In other words, I sold my soul to a corporation, right, or you know, you better love what you do, and then sixteen percent be true to yourself. Okay. The downsides maction, more tightly bunch thirty one percent, overwork twenty five percent, the strain on the family. Right, they were working so hard they didn't pay attention to me. Okay, this is something that we all know or know people who experience. And then another quarter said they were unhappy. They worked all the time, but they run happy and they didn't value happiness. So I think that this is what's interesting. Okay. So we all have this ambivalent feeling toward work that we're carrying around within us that we never articulate. That gets to what we were just talking about, which is why job is a loaded pejorative term. Because we looked at our parents and they were unhappy, either because they had a job or often the case of moms because maybe they didn't have a job. So as you know, what are we trying to accomplish her. We're trying to write a work story. I mean. One of the interesting things to me is that storytelling as of value is kind of all over cotemporary culture. Like it's gone from like nowhere to like your life is a story. My last book, Life Is, and the Transitions is all about it became a bestseller, a Ted talk with two million views. You know, I teach a Ted course on managing transitions. I get that it resonates, But for whatever reason, we haven't carried this into work. Like the idea of a work story is not a phrase I would say, that's just sort of a breast in the world right or popular in the cultures. But if you want to tell a story what we're talking about here, what are the ways to do it? Well, the number one way to do it the teacher and journalism school is what I call the Kipling questions because of Rodyard Kipling, Who, what, when, where, why? And how? Okay? Those are the six questions. The problem in work is that we only ask one question, how okay. I've just had a work quake. I'm looking for a job, How do I do it? And what do they tell you? Beef up your resume, call your contacts, you know, your close contacts and you're distant contacts. You know, go on the internet. Here's the problem with that. You'll succeed, you'll find a job, and in two point eight five years you'll be unhappy again because you're not getting to the thing. How is the last question you asked? The first question should be who you know? Who are your who's who are the influential voices in your head? And then the second question is what what is your what? Okay? And then that gets to me one of the best questions in this whole process, which is who were your role models as a child and what did you admire about them? So I'm going to ask you to do this again. So Eric, you're then family. Who were your role models as a child?

Define child years?

Define child years?

I mean, I like early, but I'll take them at any time you mentioned that, all right.

I mean, I like early, but I'll take them at any time you mentioned that, all right.

Because I was going to say it like age eight, nine, ten, I probably would have said Pete Rose.

Because I was going to say it like age eight, nine, ten, I probably would have said Pete Rose.

Ah, Okay, there we go, George Brett. These are baseball players for those of you who are of a certain age.

Ah, Okay, there we go, George Brett. These are baseball players for those of you who are of a certain age.

One of which was convicted for gambling, but that was not known at the time.

One of which was convicted for gambling, but that was not known at the time.

We didn't know that about Pete Rose when you were young. He was the Cincinnati Red and.

We didn't know that about Pete Rose when you were young. He was the Cincinnati Red and.

That's right, Charlie Hustle.

That's right, Charlie Hustle.

And then George Brett was a Kansas City royal. We're the same age.

And then George Brett was a Kansas City royal. We're the same age.

I met George Brett once I went to.

I met George Brett once I went to.

Avan Pete Rose. Hang on, Oh really, oh wow.

Avan Pete Rose. Hang on, Oh really, oh wow.

Every spring we would go to Florida, where my grandmother lived for spring break and.

Every spring we would go to Florida, where my grandmother lived for spring break and.

From where I don't know where you grew up, Ohio. Yeah. I was going to say, you must be in the Midwest if you're picking Pete Rose and George Brett.

From where I don't know where you grew up, Ohio. Yeah. I was going to say, you must be in the Midwest if you're picking Pete Rose and George Brett.

Yeah, and down there you could go to the spring training games. And so I was at a spring training game and I looked over and sitting just across the road and down the way was George Brett. And I was like crazy about him as a kid. I bet I was eight at the most at this age, but I loved him. I mean, I just thought he was it. So I went over to him to say, like, mister Brad, I really admire you. I don't to this day know exactly what he said, but he was basically, my parents will tell you like he was an asshole to like an eight year old kid. So sorry, George, I hope I don't get sued for libel on this anyway.

Yeah, and down there you could go to the spring training games. And so I was at a spring training game and I looked over and sitting just across the road and down the way was George Brett. And I was like crazy about him as a kid. I bet I was eight at the most at this age, but I loved him. I mean, I just thought he was it. So I went over to him to say, like, mister Brad, I really admire you. I don't to this day know exactly what he said, but he was basically, my parents will tell you like he was an asshole to like an eight year old kid. So sorry, George, I hope I don't get sued for libel on this anyway.

You're telling the truth. They can't be served forlibele.

You're telling the truth. They can't be served forlibele.

I flipped from Pete Rose and George Brett to at about fifteen, Johnny Rotten from the sex Pistol. So what would you deduce from those two?

I flipped from Pete Rose and George Brett to at about fifteen, Johnny Rotten from the sex Pistol. So what would you deduce from those two?

Well, the question, Dan is what did you admire about them? Would you admire about Johnny Rotten? I'm looking at your spiky hair and a guitar on either side of him. The electric guitar that's one wolf and the acoustic guitar that's another wolf.

Well, the question, Dan is what did you admire about them? Would you admire about Johnny Rotten? I'm looking at your spiky hair and a guitar on either side of him. The electric guitar that's one wolf and the acoustic guitar that's another wolf.

I think Johnny Rotten I just admired his willingness to look below the values that our society gave us and look to your own values and look for a deeper story of meaning.

I think Johnny Rotten I just admired his willingness to look below the values that our society gave us and look to your own values and look for a deeper story of meaning.

So there we go. So what did you learn from your parents? Is what I call a who question? It falls under the who is your who? Category? Because we can't pick our parents, right, it's just how do we interpret the influence that they had on us, positive and negative? Who is your role models is actually a what question because it's not who the role model is it's what did you admire about them? Okay, so I just asked you what did you admire about them? And you said the willingness to look below or around or above my question below, but look outside the story that society imposes on us and be willing to be a bit rebellious and follow the story that you want to tell. That, of course, echoes exactly the story that you shared earlier, about the nonlinear life that you followed. And so what are we talking about here? We're talking about You're in a workwake. Eighty million Americans are in a workquake right now. You are someone you know or someone you lived with, or someone that you love is in a crisis about work. Right now. Seventy percent of Americans are unhappy with what they're doing. Three quarters of Americans are saying they will look for a new job in the next year. This is research that came out within the last week. Okay, a million Americans quit a job every week. That's fifty million people a year. That's a third of the workforce. Two thirds of the word force is now bowing with their employer about working remotely or working from home. So we're at a moment that's unprecedented when everybody is saying, I want to write my own story. And so what I'm offering here is a set of questions to ask. I got twenty one of these. But the first we went through here is what goes to be carrying around with my parents, And the second is, if you want to know what you should be doing right now, ask yourself what your role models were doing when you were younger, because the values that you admired them. In effect, that's the first choice you made about work. These are the first people that you chose to associate yourself with, as opposed to your parents, whom you had to associate yourself with. So all of these questions are designed to get at this story that you have been telling all along. Now you know why I can't tell you what to do. I can help you figure out if we just jump to another one of the questions. So I asked people in these conversations what I'm doing is I'm picking a workquake, a super workquake. I call it one of the biggest definances in your case. It would have been maybe when you were younger, but more likely I would have if I was collecting your life story right now, I would have taken the moment that you got off the career track right, and I would dig down into that, and one of the questions that I would ask you is did you get advice from someone at that time? In fact, I could ask you that quite did you get advice from someone? And if so, who was it and what did they say?

So there we go. So what did you learn from your parents? Is what I call a who question? It falls under the who is your who? Category? Because we can't pick our parents, right, it's just how do we interpret the influence that they had on us, positive and negative? Who is your role models is actually a what question because it's not who the role model is it's what did you admire about them? Okay, so I just asked you what did you admire about them? And you said the willingness to look below or around or above my question below, but look outside the story that society imposes on us and be willing to be a bit rebellious and follow the story that you want to tell. That, of course, echoes exactly the story that you shared earlier, about the nonlinear life that you followed. And so what are we talking about here? We're talking about You're in a workwake. Eighty million Americans are in a workquake right now. You are someone you know or someone you lived with, or someone that you love is in a crisis about work. Right now. Seventy percent of Americans are unhappy with what they're doing. Three quarters of Americans are saying they will look for a new job in the next year. This is research that came out within the last week. Okay, a million Americans quit a job every week. That's fifty million people a year. That's a third of the workforce. Two thirds of the word force is now bowing with their employer about working remotely or working from home. So we're at a moment that's unprecedented when everybody is saying, I want to write my own story. And so what I'm offering here is a set of questions to ask. I got twenty one of these. But the first we went through here is what goes to be carrying around with my parents, And the second is, if you want to know what you should be doing right now, ask yourself what your role models were doing when you were younger, because the values that you admired them. In effect, that's the first choice you made about work. These are the first people that you chose to associate yourself with, as opposed to your parents, whom you had to associate yourself with. So all of these questions are designed to get at this story that you have been telling all along. Now you know why I can't tell you what to do. I can help you figure out if we just jump to another one of the questions. So I asked people in these conversations what I'm doing is I'm picking a workquake, a super workquake. I call it one of the biggest definances in your case. It would have been maybe when you were younger, but more likely I would have if I was collecting your life story right now, I would have taken the moment that you got off the career track right, and I would dig down into that, and one of the questions that I would ask you is did you get advice from someone at that time? In fact, I could ask you that quite did you get advice from someone? And if so, who was it and what did they say?

I'm sure I did get advice. I'm a memory challenged person. I'm sure I got advice from a variety of people. And if I had to sum it up, I think that probably what I pulled out of that at the very least was and this was my transition from my sort of software career into doing the podcast full time, yep. And it was if you don't try this, you'll always wonder yes. And I think I'd been getting advice along the way for years about it. And you know, I think another piece of advice that felt really relevant to me was there's a way to do this without taking an exorbitant amount of risk, right, And that was basically my creating the podcast over years while I had another job, was in order to get to a point where I didn't find myself into the binary of do what you love or go broke right, and so there was actually a different way to get there.

I'm sure I did get advice. I'm a memory challenged person. I'm sure I got advice from a variety of people. And if I had to sum it up, I think that probably what I pulled out of that at the very least was and this was my transition from my sort of software career into doing the podcast full time, yep. And it was if you don't try this, you'll always wonder yes. And I think I'd been getting advice along the way for years about it. And you know, I think another piece of advice that felt really relevant to me was there's a way to do this without taking an exorbitant amount of risk, right, And that was basically my creating the podcast over years while I had another job, was in order to get to a point where I didn't find myself into the binary of do what you love or go broke right, and so there was actually a different way to get there.

What are the people I know that helped.

What are the people I know that helped.

Me was a guy named Jonathan Fields from Good Life Project.

Me was a guy named Jonathan Fields from Good Life Project.

I'm actually taping an interview with Jonathan coming up and I will share that with him. And this echoes exactly what I heard over and over again Eric. Okay, and that first of all, getting advice when someone is valuable. There's a whole chapter in life is in the transitions. As you may remember that one of the tools is share your story with others because you can get advice. But when I dug down into what was the advice and what people found most helpful, the vast majority of people I just look for the number. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but it's like three quarters of people said that the best advice that they got reconfirmed advice they already giving to themselves. Funny, yeah, okay, So what we want from these people is not a kick in the butt or a slap in the face. Okay, it's a pat on the back. And this is the theme that comes up over and over again. Trust yourself, listen to what your inner voice is telling you. The inner voice knows because the inner voice is much less shaped by all of these external pressures. Okay, those other people who are feeding the other wolves, Okay, all around us is accessing that inner voice. Now, there are practical things in my book as a whole chapter on how, and one of them is, you know things that came up over and over again, or I give yourself a buffer time. Okay, I'll try this for eighteen months and if it doesn't work right, or maybe you keep your main job for salary and benefits and you start this side job or hope job in the evenings or the weekends to get it going. Or then maybe in your case, you leave the main job for the side job or the hope job, and then it's gonna work, but it's gonna take a while. And so maybe the bulk of your time time now goes to the meaning job, okay, which is the podcast, but it's not fully paying the bills yet, so you have to do take a few side jobs, you know, to pay for it. Here now you begin to see the value in the multiple jobs is that you can a lot meaning to this, and money to that, and time to this, and the hours of the day. Now that it doesn't matter that you're working. You know, what do people do all day? It doesn't matter that you're you know, doing one job from nine to five and then going home and having personal time. This is not the frame that's helpful today because it doesn't characterize all the choices that we have the opportunity to make today.

I'm actually taping an interview with Jonathan coming up and I will share that with him. And this echoes exactly what I heard over and over again Eric. Okay, and that first of all, getting advice when someone is valuable. There's a whole chapter in life is in the transitions. As you may remember that one of the tools is share your story with others because you can get advice. But when I dug down into what was the advice and what people found most helpful, the vast majority of people I just look for the number. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but it's like three quarters of people said that the best advice that they got reconfirmed advice they already giving to themselves. Funny, yeah, okay, So what we want from these people is not a kick in the butt or a slap in the face. Okay, it's a pat on the back. And this is the theme that comes up over and over again. Trust yourself, listen to what your inner voice is telling you. The inner voice knows because the inner voice is much less shaped by all of these external pressures. Okay, those other people who are feeding the other wolves, Okay, all around us is accessing that inner voice. Now, there are practical things in my book as a whole chapter on how, and one of them is, you know things that came up over and over again, or I give yourself a buffer time. Okay, I'll try this for eighteen months and if it doesn't work right, or maybe you keep your main job for salary and benefits and you start this side job or hope job in the evenings or the weekends to get it going. Or then maybe in your case, you leave the main job for the side job or the hope job, and then it's gonna work, but it's gonna take a while. And so maybe the bulk of your time time now goes to the meaning job, okay, which is the podcast, but it's not fully paying the bills yet, so you have to do take a few side jobs, you know, to pay for it. Here now you begin to see the value in the multiple jobs is that you can a lot meaning to this, and money to that, and time to this, and the hours of the day. Now that it doesn't matter that you're working. You know, what do people do all day? It doesn't matter that you're you know, doing one job from nine to five and then going home and having personal time. This is not the frame that's helpful today because it doesn't characterize all the choices that we have the opportunity to make today.

I think that is so spot on and so absolutely true in my experience, because I had this career in the software business.

I think that is so spot on and so absolutely true in my experience, because I had this career in the software business.

It started out being very.

It started out being very.

Meaningful to me because I was just actually picking myself up from nowhere.

Meaningful to me because I was just actually picking myself up from nowhere.

You were paying your bills, you were responsible, you were contributing to society. You're now getting meaning that you know, you're not a loser, you're not an addict, right, You're not as appointment. You know, you're getting external validation and like all these things have great value. That's the meaning that you needed at that.

You were paying your bills, you were responsible, you were contributing to society. You're now getting meaning that you know, you're not a loser, you're not an addict, right, You're not as appointment. You know, you're getting external validation and like all these things have great value. That's the meaning that you needed at that.

Time, precisely.

Time, precisely.

And then as that went on, it wasn't that I didn't like that work, because I always liked it. I always found it interesting, I always found it challenging, I always found that people interesting. I found it intellectually demanding. But it began to have less and less meaning, and so at one juncture I decided I was going to start a solar energy company to get more meaning, and I kept the consulting work and I worked on the solar energy thing, and solar energy company failed after about five years, and then I started up the podcast.

And then as that went on, it wasn't that I didn't like that work, because I always liked it. I always found it interesting, I always found it challenging, I always found that people interesting. I found it intellectually demanding. But it began to have less and less meaning, and so at one juncture I decided I was going to start a solar energy company to get more meaning, and I kept the consulting work and I worked on the solar energy thing, and solar energy company failed after about five years, and then I started up the podcast.

But the thing I think about.

But the thing I think about.

All that that I'm saying is that at the time, you know, these two instances are ten and fifteen years ago, right, there was not a lot of discussion about what you're saying, the different ways to patch it together. I kept feeling like I was presented with these binaries. Either work your full time job and give yourself to it and abandon these silly me or you.