Are you feeling stressed about the holidays? The pressure to make everything perfect, the tricky family gatherings, trying to keep everybody happy, and for some of you it's the opposite. It's the feeling of being alone. Either way, it's a lot. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, know that many others feel the same way. But this year can be different. Join me in the one you feed community for a free online event on December tenth at twelve pm Eastern. You'll learn a simple wise habit that can help you let go of holiday stress and find more peace, steadiness, and real connection. Picture yourself getting through this season feeling grounded, present and clear without all the pressure to be perfect. Give yourself this free gift of support, learning and genuine connection with others who get it. Sign up now at oneufeed dot net slash holiday. If you're unable to attend live, we'll be sending the video to people who have registered. So go to oneufeed dot net slagh holiday and change the way you experience the holidays.

Are you feeling stressed about the holidays? The pressure to make everything perfect, the tricky family gatherings, trying to keep everybody happy, and for some of you it's the opposite. It's the feeling of being alone. Either way, it's a lot. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, know that many others feel the same way. But this year can be different. Join me in the one you feed community for a free online event on December tenth at twelve pm Eastern. You'll learn a simple wise habit that can help you let go of holiday stress and find more peace, steadiness, and real connection. Picture yourself getting through this season feeling grounded, present and clear without all the pressure to be perfect. Give yourself this free gift of support, learning and genuine connection with others who get it. Sign up now at oneufeed dot net slash holiday. If you're unable to attend live, we'll be sending the video to people who have registered. So go to oneufeed dot net slagh holiday and change the way you experience the holidays.

Set to your goals, whether it's what you eat or the jolity you are going to have When you are in a cimilar situation to the situation that you will be it when you pursue that goal.

Set to your goals, whether it's what you eat or the jolity you are going to have When you are in a cimilar situation to the situation that you will be it when you pursue that goal.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcasts is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good woalth. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is il At Fishback, the professor of behavioral science and Marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. She's also the past president of the Society for the Study of Motivation. Il It has been published in many psychology and business journals, and served as associate editor of several journals, including the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and psychological science. Her research is regularly featured in the media, including Wall Street Journal, CNN, Chicago Tribune, NPR, and many others. Today, ial It and Eric discuss her book, Get It Done Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcasts is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good woalth. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is il At Fishback, the professor of behavioral science and Marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. She's also the past president of the Society for the Study of Motivation. Il It has been published in many psychology and business journals, and served as associate editor of several journals, including the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and psychological science. Her research is regularly featured in the media, including Wall Street Journal, CNN, Chicago Tribune, NPR, and many others. Today, ial It and Eric discuss her book, Get It Done Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.

Hi, I, y Ella, Welcome to the show.

Hi, I, y Ella, Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. Excited to be here today.

Thanks for having me. Excited to be here today.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about your book called Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up with their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you and your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about your book called Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up with their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you and your life and in the work that you do.

It is such a great description of the work that they do as someone who is both a social psychologist and a motivation scientist, which you know is kind of surprising to me that it fits. Well. Let me explain how the idea in social psychology is that we are all the result of our circumstances, respond to our environment, their profession, that we pursue, the people that are our friends, how we choose to spend our life, our hobbies, everything is the result of the situation. And then what motivation science adds to this is that, yes, but we can change our situation. And you know the simple examples that we set in the land clock. So yes, we sleep when we are tired and there is a quiet chroom. But if we set in the land clock, then we are going together because it's hard to sleep in the noisy woom. If we set a goal that changes how we see our performance, that increases our motivation. If we create an environment in which there are certain floods, then this is what we are going to eat. And I think that this pu Wil basically take it to a very genuine level that if we that our lives such that it is easier and more natural to act on the good. Okay, if this is what we feed then this is what we are going to do. And in a way it kind of resolves this tension between that question of whether we respond to our situation or control our situation. We do both. Okay, we respond to what is out there. We can also manipulate what is out there so that we control our response. I would, however, change it to ask a grandmother and her granddaughter, or if I could.

It is such a great description of the work that they do as someone who is both a social psychologist and a motivation scientist, which you know is kind of surprising to me that it fits. Well. Let me explain how the idea in social psychology is that we are all the result of our circumstances, respond to our environment, their profession, that we pursue, the people that are our friends, how we choose to spend our life, our hobbies, everything is the result of the situation. And then what motivation science adds to this is that, yes, but we can change our situation. And you know the simple examples that we set in the land clock. So yes, we sleep when we are tired and there is a quiet chroom. But if we set in the land clock, then we are going together because it's hard to sleep in the noisy woom. If we set a goal that changes how we see our performance, that increases our motivation. If we create an environment in which there are certain floods, then this is what we are going to eat. And I think that this pu Wil basically take it to a very genuine level that if we that our lives such that it is easier and more natural to act on the good. Okay, if this is what we feed then this is what we are going to do. And in a way it kind of resolves this tension between that question of whether we respond to our situation or control our situation. We do both. Okay, we respond to what is out there. We can also manipulate what is out there so that we control our response. I would, however, change it to ask a grandmother and her granddaughter, or if I could.

Yes, we have gone back and forth on genders, you know, grandparent, grandchild, grandfather, grandchild, grandmother. We just kind of mix it up. I see, You're welcome to have it be a grandmother and her granddaughter.

Yes, we have gone back and forth on genders, you know, grandparent, grandchild, grandfather, grandchild, grandmother. We just kind of mix it up. I see, You're welcome to have it be a grandmother and her granddaughter.

Okay.

Okay.

Early on in the book, you said, how do you motivate yourself? The short answers by changing your circumstances. You modify your own behavior by modifying the situation in which it occurs. And I think that for people who don't know much about motivational or behavioral science, that's the step that we miss the most often. We think it's just an internal thing. I just decide that I'm going to do something differently, and then I do it. And if I don't do it, it's a failure of my will. It's a failure of my willpower, it's a personal failing, whereas what we know is there's a whole lot of things we can learn about how to make changes in our lives a lot more effectively so that we have a better chance to succeed and we don't need as much, you know, willpower or self control, even though we do need some of those things right to the extent that we don't rely on them exclusively really says a lot about how likely we are to be successful.

Early on in the book, you said, how do you motivate yourself? The short answers by changing your circumstances. You modify your own behavior by modifying the situation in which it occurs. And I think that for people who don't know much about motivational or behavioral science, that's the step that we miss the most often. We think it's just an internal thing. I just decide that I'm going to do something differently, and then I do it. And if I don't do it, it's a failure of my will. It's a failure of my willpower, it's a personal failing, whereas what we know is there's a whole lot of things we can learn about how to make changes in our lives a lot more effectively so that we have a better chance to succeed and we don't need as much, you know, willpower or self control, even though we do need some of those things right to the extent that we don't rely on them exclusively really says a lot about how likely we are to be successful.

Absolutely. I think about the myths that people believe in in motivation science, death is the first one. I just either I didn't try hard and enough, or I didn't care enough. Okay, so I didn't do something because it wasn't important for me, or because I couldn't. Well, there is a third possibility that is probably the most likely explanation. You just did not set the situation right. You did not set yourself up for success. You know. I'll stick to the example of food. When we are hungry, we eat what is in front of us. So telling yourself, when you are full, I'm just going to try very hard not to eat that food that's bad for me. Well, when you are hungry, you're going to eat what is in front of you. So if you want to control what you eat, you want to make sure that what is in front of you are the foods that you would like to eat. You want to manipulate your situation.

Absolutely. I think about the myths that people believe in in motivation science, death is the first one. I just either I didn't try hard and enough, or I didn't care enough. Okay, so I didn't do something because it wasn't important for me, or because I couldn't. Well, there is a third possibility that is probably the most likely explanation. You just did not set the situation right. You did not set yourself up for success. You know. I'll stick to the example of food. When we are hungry, we eat what is in front of us. So telling yourself, when you are full, I'm just going to try very hard not to eat that food that's bad for me. Well, when you are hungry, you're going to eat what is in front of you. So if you want to control what you eat, you want to make sure that what is in front of you are the foods that you would like to eat. You want to manipulate your situation.

I love that idea. You know, do we react to our circumstances or do we control our circumstances? And the answer is both right, we have varying degrees of each in certain circum stances where we do each. You just said something there that was one of the things that struck me the most from your book. I've read a lot of these books, and yours is excellent, but something really stood out, and it's what you just said. And basically what you said in the book is try and set goals when you're in a state similar to the state you'll be in when executing them. And you just alluded to that with food, like, don't set the goal of what you're going to eat when you're stuffed, right, because you're going to feel differently. It's the reverse of that adage don't go grocery shopping when you're hungry. But so many of us set goals based on our very best version of ourselves, the me that got enough sleep you know, the kids were away for the weekend, so I had lots of extra hours. We set our goals in these idealized states, and then real life rolls around and we can't achieve them. And I was just really struck by how wise that is.

I love that idea. You know, do we react to our circumstances or do we control our circumstances? And the answer is both right, we have varying degrees of each in certain circum stances where we do each. You just said something there that was one of the things that struck me the most from your book. I've read a lot of these books, and yours is excellent, but something really stood out, and it's what you just said. And basically what you said in the book is try and set goals when you're in a state similar to the state you'll be in when executing them. And you just alluded to that with food, like, don't set the goal of what you're going to eat when you're stuffed, right, because you're going to feel differently. It's the reverse of that adage don't go grocery shopping when you're hungry. But so many of us set goals based on our very best version of ourselves, the me that got enough sleep you know, the kids were away for the weekend, so I had lots of extra hours. We set our goals in these idealized states, and then real life rolls around and we can't achieve them. And I was just really struck by how wise that is.

Thank you. Thank you. Something that we know for a long time that people don't have much sympathy to they'll future yourself or empathy. Actually we call it that the lack of empathy to your future self. You see that where you know you are traveling to somewhere where it's very cold, but right now it's somewhere for you, and so you don't really pet a cold. We see this also in employment, and I've been teaching business students for a long time, and when you asked about their future jobs, they plan their future job for someone who's basically a robot. Here is someone who really cares about how much money they will make, but cares less about doing something. It's interesting with the people that they like about being challenged about being curious. Not that they don't care at all, but in a way they say this future self, the mean few months from now, that person would really prioritize their future earnings about everything else. And guess what, that's just lack of empathy to your future self, because then you will love to get up in the morning and going and do that job. And we know that what predicts are being able to do your job, being able to stick with employment is the immediate gratification that you get from interacting with people that you like over solving problems that are interesting for you. And so yes, set your goals, whether it's what you eat or the job that you are going to have when you are in a similar situation to the situation that you will be when you pursue that all.

Thank you. Thank you. Something that we know for a long time that people don't have much sympathy to they'll future yourself or empathy. Actually we call it that the lack of empathy to your future self. You see that where you know you are traveling to somewhere where it's very cold, but right now it's somewhere for you, and so you don't really pet a cold. We see this also in employment, and I've been teaching business students for a long time, and when you asked about their future jobs, they plan their future job for someone who's basically a robot. Here is someone who really cares about how much money they will make, but cares less about doing something. It's interesting with the people that they like about being challenged about being curious. Not that they don't care at all, but in a way they say this future self, the mean few months from now, that person would really prioritize their future earnings about everything else. And guess what, that's just lack of empathy to your future self, because then you will love to get up in the morning and going and do that job. And we know that what predicts are being able to do your job, being able to stick with employment is the immediate gratification that you get from interacting with people that you like over solving problems that are interesting for you. And so yes, set your goals, whether it's what you eat or the job that you are going to have when you are in a similar situation to the situation that you will be when you pursue that all.

Yeah, And I think that leads us nicely into talking about intrinsic motivation, because you just sort of mentioned it there, right. It's one thing to say, I'm going to go to work and I'm going to work in this situation and I don't care if I like it, I don't care how good it is, because I want to get this money. That's the extreme of extrinsic motivation. I'm doing this thing only because I'm going to get this other thing out of it, whereas intrinsic motivation, at the far other extreme would be I'm doing this thing only because I love doing it. It seems to me that most of us, with most things, you know, there's going to be a middle ground between those two, and the closer we are to intrinsic motivation, the more likely we are to continue to stick with it. But would you agree that for a lot of things we do, we end up sort of between pure intrinsic and pure extrinsic motivation.

Yeah, And I think that leads us nicely into talking about intrinsic motivation, because you just sort of mentioned it there, right. It's one thing to say, I'm going to go to work and I'm going to work in this situation and I don't care if I like it, I don't care how good it is, because I want to get this money. That's the extreme of extrinsic motivation. I'm doing this thing only because I'm going to get this other thing out of it, whereas intrinsic motivation, at the far other extreme would be I'm doing this thing only because I love doing it. It seems to me that most of us, with most things, you know, there's going to be a middle ground between those two, and the closer we are to intrinsic motivation, the more likely we are to continue to stick with it. But would you agree that for a lot of things we do, we end up sort of between pure intrinsic and pure extrinsic motivation.

Absolutely, intwinsic motivation is doing something as its own end. It's a stroll in the park, it's a nice meal with a friend. And many of the things that we need to do in life are not purely intrinsically motivated. They are not something that we do only because it feels good while we are doing it. Extwensic motivation is not. And the extrinsic motivation is what gets us to do our annual medical checkup, is what gets us to sell for retirement. It's basically doing something that doesn't feel good right now, but we will benefit in the long run. In terms of motivation, is doing something because it feels right at the moment, because doing it is like achieving the goal. And when people are intrinsically motivated, they are going to really engage in the activity they're going to experience. What sometimes people refill to is the flow that it feels white, It feels right at the moment. Now, let's take employment ideally, it's not one or the other, or well, it's not just extrinsically motivating. You're not only walking for some future benefit. You're actually enjoying what you're doing. You actually get some immediate benefits from it. But you also want to walk thinking about your future, yourself and thinking about supporting that person in the future. So it's somewhere between. We often need to stick with relationship in bad times because we know that in good times we are intrinsically motivated to be in the relationship because there is nothing that feels better than being with this person that I love. But right now we are in an argument, and so most calls are somewhere in between, And that's fine. If you can increase the intrinsic motivation eventually, that predicts persistence better than extrinsic motivation. That is that the immediate feeling that feels right, that predicts how much people exercise, how much they eat healthy food, how much they stick to their employment. Basically, everything that we measured in our staties, was better predicted by that immediate intrinsic motivation than twins of motivation.

Absolutely, intwinsic motivation is doing something as its own end. It's a stroll in the park, it's a nice meal with a friend. And many of the things that we need to do in life are not purely intrinsically motivated. They are not something that we do only because it feels good while we are doing it. Extwensic motivation is not. And the extrinsic motivation is what gets us to do our annual medical checkup, is what gets us to sell for retirement. It's basically doing something that doesn't feel good right now, but we will benefit in the long run. In terms of motivation, is doing something because it feels right at the moment, because doing it is like achieving the goal. And when people are intrinsically motivated, they are going to really engage in the activity they're going to experience. What sometimes people refill to is the flow that it feels white, It feels right at the moment. Now, let's take employment ideally, it's not one or the other, or well, it's not just extrinsically motivating. You're not only walking for some future benefit. You're actually enjoying what you're doing. You actually get some immediate benefits from it. But you also want to walk thinking about your future, yourself and thinking about supporting that person in the future. So it's somewhere between. We often need to stick with relationship in bad times because we know that in good times we are intrinsically motivated to be in the relationship because there is nothing that feels better than being with this person that I love. But right now we are in an argument, and so most calls are somewhere in between, And that's fine. If you can increase the intrinsic motivation eventually, that predicts persistence better than extrinsic motivation. That is that the immediate feeling that feels right, that predicts how much people exercise, how much they eat healthy food, how much they stick to their employment. Basically, everything that we measured in our staties, was better predicted by that immediate intrinsic motivation than twins of motivation.

So as you're saying that intrinsic motivation is the best predictor of engagement in just about everything, well, I think is interesting is not only might a goal have a little bit of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, as you sort of alluded to, even the same thing can slide along that GAO. I think about playing guitar. For me, I used to play guitar because I loved it and I was hoping something was going to come out of it, like I was going to be a guitar player. I was going to make a living doing it. Well, that became obvious it wasn't going to happen, and I had to work really hard to reclaim playing the guitar just because I like to do it, Because every time I started to play, I'd think, oh, well, maybe I could record that. So I got back to I do it because I like it, but I also know that in order to like it, I like to get better at it. So I try and practice each day, even if on that day I don't feel extrinsically motivated to do it, I know that the thing overall is extrinsically motivated. Or take this podcast as an example. I'm fortunate enough now that this is what I do for a living, and I am very intrinsically motivated, but there are some days that I simply don't feel like doing it, because as a humans, we just have days where we don't feel like doing anything, and so I think it's just kind of interesting to look at that. What are some ways of making things more intrinsically motivating. So if we've got a job that's you know, okay, I've got some intrinsic motivation, but it's also the way I have to make a living, you know, I feel like I need to be here. What are some ways to make it more intrinsically motivating.

So as you're saying that intrinsic motivation is the best predictor of engagement in just about everything, well, I think is interesting is not only might a goal have a little bit of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, as you sort of alluded to, even the same thing can slide along that GAO. I think about playing guitar. For me, I used to play guitar because I loved it and I was hoping something was going to come out of it, like I was going to be a guitar player. I was going to make a living doing it. Well, that became obvious it wasn't going to happen, and I had to work really hard to reclaim playing the guitar just because I like to do it, Because every time I started to play, I'd think, oh, well, maybe I could record that. So I got back to I do it because I like it, but I also know that in order to like it, I like to get better at it. So I try and practice each day, even if on that day I don't feel extrinsically motivated to do it, I know that the thing overall is extrinsically motivated. Or take this podcast as an example. I'm fortunate enough now that this is what I do for a living, and I am very intrinsically motivated, but there are some days that I simply don't feel like doing it, because as a humans, we just have days where we don't feel like doing anything, and so I think it's just kind of interesting to look at that. What are some ways of making things more intrinsically motivating. So if we've got a job that's you know, okay, I've got some intrinsic motivation, but it's also the way I have to make a living, you know, I feel like I need to be here. What are some ways to make it more intrinsically motivating.

Well, a lot of your question. First, you're absolutely right that many activities that will be intrinsically motivating or are sometimes intwinsically motivatings, might not be intrinsically motivating right now. The one example that I have was learning to do stand up comedy and we actually walked. We walked with a Second City here, which is an improve club, and it was interesting because we got into classes of people that just want to learn improvisation for the sake of feeling more confident as they interact with the people around them. So they're not really trying to be a stand up comedians. They just want to feel a little bit more comfortable. And they get to these improve classes and they feel horrible. They like the decree is, oh, I'm supposed to like move my body in a funny way and like be spontaneous, and I can think of that and what we call them. How about you set your goal for the first class is not feeling good. It's a challenging yourself as a struggling Okay, so your goal is actually to feel a little bit bad. Try to make it difficult, and you know, with that goal in mind, Yeah, today I'm going to embarrass myself. Hey, today I'm going to feel not so great about what I'm doing. People are able to overcome the first initiation. So today that's going to feel bad, and in the future I will learn to enjoy day. I will learn to get the intrinsic motivation in the sense of enjoyment. But how to increase interns and motivation, So you know, one thing is the embrace the fact that intrinsic motivation might not happen the first time you do. So, if you haven't been running for a while and you go and run exactly right, you can already complete my centers, So you know, give yourself a chance. It might take a while. Other ways, well, you could bring some immediate benefits there. You can try to make something more intrinsically motivated by the way you do it. Some people like to walk while listening to music. I personally cannot do that, But when I went and study with high school students, it turned out that when you played music during math class, they were actually more engaged in the math, They were more motivated. Overall, the whole thing became more pleasant for them because music was playing. This is the same thing that we did. We bring music to exercising or TV to exercising. We do something that is difficult that might not be in meately pleasant with some other things that make it more immediately pleasant. You know, healthy food that is tasty, that is colorful, that is beautiful, is you know another example. Another strategy is to focus on what is immediately pleasant. They focus on the experience, or try to be in experience. Think about how you feel about it right now. It requires some practice, It requires some awareness. If you meditate, that could help, but really learning to observe how you are feeling right now and to focus on the positives. And then a third strategy that I would offer is just when you choose what to do, whether it's your profession or your exercise routine, or the food that you are going to eat, or the people that you are going to interact with, while take into account terrans and motivation, ask yourself how much I will enjoy that, how much it would feel right while I'm doing it, not after I'm doing it. I would give it another example for that. This is a study where we offer people choice between two tasks. One was to listen to the song hey you would buy the Billers, and the other one was to listen to a loud alarm box. Do you know what you would choose? Right?

Well, a lot of your question. First, you're absolutely right that many activities that will be intrinsically motivating or are sometimes intwinsically motivatings, might not be intrinsically motivating right now. The one example that I have was learning to do stand up comedy and we actually walked. We walked with a Second City here, which is an improve club, and it was interesting because we got into classes of people that just want to learn improvisation for the sake of feeling more confident as they interact with the people around them. So they're not really trying to be a stand up comedians. They just want to feel a little bit more comfortable. And they get to these improve classes and they feel horrible. They like the decree is, oh, I'm supposed to like move my body in a funny way and like be spontaneous, and I can think of that and what we call them. How about you set your goal for the first class is not feeling good. It's a challenging yourself as a struggling Okay, so your goal is actually to feel a little bit bad. Try to make it difficult, and you know, with that goal in mind, Yeah, today I'm going to embarrass myself. Hey, today I'm going to feel not so great about what I'm doing. People are able to overcome the first initiation. So today that's going to feel bad, and in the future I will learn to enjoy day. I will learn to get the intrinsic motivation in the sense of enjoyment. But how to increase interns and motivation, So you know, one thing is the embrace the fact that intrinsic motivation might not happen the first time you do. So, if you haven't been running for a while and you go and run exactly right, you can already complete my centers, So you know, give yourself a chance. It might take a while. Other ways, well, you could bring some immediate benefits there. You can try to make something more intrinsically motivated by the way you do it. Some people like to walk while listening to music. I personally cannot do that, But when I went and study with high school students, it turned out that when you played music during math class, they were actually more engaged in the math, They were more motivated. Overall, the whole thing became more pleasant for them because music was playing. This is the same thing that we did. We bring music to exercising or TV to exercising. We do something that is difficult that might not be in meately pleasant with some other things that make it more immediately pleasant. You know, healthy food that is tasty, that is colorful, that is beautiful, is you know another example. Another strategy is to focus on what is immediately pleasant. They focus on the experience, or try to be in experience. Think about how you feel about it right now. It requires some practice, It requires some awareness. If you meditate, that could help, but really learning to observe how you are feeling right now and to focus on the positives. And then a third strategy that I would offer is just when you choose what to do, whether it's your profession or your exercise routine, or the food that you are going to eat, or the people that you are going to interact with, while take into account terrans and motivation, ask yourself how much I will enjoy that, how much it would feel right while I'm doing it, not after I'm doing it. I would give it another example for that. This is a study where we offer people choice between two tasks. One was to listen to the song hey you would buy the Billers, and the other one was to listen to a loud alarm box. Do you know what you would choose? Right?

It's pretty yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's pretty yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we offered more money for the alarm clock.

But we offered more money for the alarm clock.

How much more money.

How much more money.

You think, like thousands of dollars ten percent over the base pay really not much. We got about seventy percent of the people in this experiment to choose the loud alarm because it paid ten percent more, and they wanted the money, and they regretted their choice. The majority of them said that they wish they made a little bit less money and had the nice soundless.

You think, like thousands of dollars ten percent over the base pay really not much. We got about seventy percent of the people in this experiment to choose the loud alarm because it paid ten percent more, and they wanted the money, and they regretted their choice. The majority of them said that they wish they made a little bit less money and had the nice soundless.

So that's interesting because we hear all the time in the workplace that money is not what motivates people, right, and yet I think that that may ultimately be true in the long term. In the short term, I think people are often lured by money because it's easier to quantify. It's easier to go, oh, this new job is going to give me twenty thousand dollars more. Okay. It's a lot harder to quantify all the intangibles that go around it. It's a lot harder to know, well, as the company culture better will, I like the people, and so we go, Okay, twenty thousand dollars. I just want the money. Similar to the alarm clock, it's like, well, I don't know how unpleasant listening to the alarm clock is, but I know I'm going to get ten percent more. So I could sort of fix that in my brain in some way.

So that's interesting because we hear all the time in the workplace that money is not what motivates people, right, and yet I think that that may ultimately be true in the long term. In the short term, I think people are often lured by money because it's easier to quantify. It's easier to go, oh, this new job is going to give me twenty thousand dollars more. Okay. It's a lot harder to quantify all the intangibles that go around it. It's a lot harder to know, well, as the company culture better will, I like the people, and so we go, Okay, twenty thousand dollars. I just want the money. Similar to the alarm clock, it's like, well, I don't know how unpleasant listening to the alarm clock is, but I know I'm going to get ten percent more. So I could sort of fix that in my brain in some way.

Yes, as a decision scientist, I can tell you that if you want to influence people's decisions, give them some numbers. People like to use the numbers right. And so we know that when people seek employment, when they go to work, they are looking forward to doing something that pays, and money is important, but they're also looking to do something that is interesting with people that they like. And as you said, it's hard to measure interest. It's how to measure the liking of the people that wanting them to walk with these people on whatever it is that we do. It's very easy to say that next job is going to be a ten percent increase what I'm making now. It's easy to put too much emphasis on money. It's not the money is not important, it's really important. We also know that money is important for other people, and we think that other people care much less than us about doing something that is interesting with people that they like. Yeah, guess what they also care about? It not just me.

Yes, as a decision scientist, I can tell you that if you want to influence people's decisions, give them some numbers. People like to use the numbers right. And so we know that when people seek employment, when they go to work, they are looking forward to doing something that pays, and money is important, but they're also looking to do something that is interesting with people that they like. And as you said, it's hard to measure interest. It's how to measure the liking of the people that wanting them to walk with these people on whatever it is that we do. It's very easy to say that next job is going to be a ten percent increase what I'm making now. It's easy to put too much emphasis on money. It's not the money is not important, it's really important. We also know that money is important for other people, and we think that other people care much less than us about doing something that is interesting with people that they like. Yeah, guess what they also care about? It not just me.

Yeah, it makes me think of something that you say in a different section, and maybe we'll get to it. But you're talking about self control, and you say, a problem isn't about self control If it isn't clear that one choice is a temptation when both choices have potential, it's simply a difficult decision. And I think that speaks to what we were just talking about, that deciding between two workplaces is a difficult decision. You know, it's easy if it's like, well, this place will pay me one hundred thousand dollars a year and I work twenty hours a week and everybody I met seems lovely, and this other place will pay me fifty thousand dollars a year. I've got to work forty hours a week and the people seem awful. Like, okay, that's easy, right, It's when it gets harder, And I love that fact or that idea that you know, numbers make it easier to make a decision. We're drawn to numbers because we can quantify it. Yes, So let's go back to nearly the beginning of the book. I've been hopping all over the place. There's been no chronology to this. But one of the things that you say about choosing a goal is you call it choosing a powerful goal, and you describe a powerful goal as something that feels exciting and not like a chore. So, you know, assuming we're picking a goal like health, right, like I want to be in better health, how do we frame that goal? How do we choose that goal in a way that makes it a powerful goal, feel like something that's not a chore.

Yeah, it makes me think of something that you say in a different section, and maybe we'll get to it. But you're talking about self control, and you say, a problem isn't about self control If it isn't clear that one choice is a temptation when both choices have potential, it's simply a difficult decision. And I think that speaks to what we were just talking about, that deciding between two workplaces is a difficult decision. You know, it's easy if it's like, well, this place will pay me one hundred thousand dollars a year and I work twenty hours a week and everybody I met seems lovely, and this other place will pay me fifty thousand dollars a year. I've got to work forty hours a week and the people seem awful. Like, okay, that's easy, right, It's when it gets harder, And I love that fact or that idea that you know, numbers make it easier to make a decision. We're drawn to numbers because we can quantify it. Yes, So let's go back to nearly the beginning of the book. I've been hopping all over the place. There's been no chronology to this. But one of the things that you say about choosing a goal is you call it choosing a powerful goal, and you describe a powerful goal as something that feels exciting and not like a chore. So, you know, assuming we're picking a goal like health, right, like I want to be in better health, how do we frame that goal? How do we choose that goal in a way that makes it a powerful goal, feel like something that's not a chore.

Yes, A few things, Okay, First, we want to define the goals such that it is connected to in a captivity, but it's sufficiently upset. It's sufficiently general so that it doesn't feel like a means say, the goal is not something that I will do so that I can do something else. It's the thing itself is. So the goal is not maybe to lose weight, which, by the way, I don't like that goal at all, so I can always use it as a bad goal. The goal is not to lose weight so that I can be attractive over summer. The goal is to feel comfortable to feel attractive. Now I ask myself, what do I need to do in order to feel that I am an attractive person? When I in the min order that I like myself powerful goals. I also usually approach goals and not avoidance goals. So it's usually it's something that you want to do and not something that you want to avoid. Losing weight is problematic because it's usually about not doing it's about not eating. If you set your goal is exercising as doing something is eating certain foods, that's easier that is less likely to bring to mind the thing that you are trying to avoid. One reason why it's so hard to overcome addiction is because the goal is usually an avoiding school. You tell yourself that you should not be drinking, and now you ask yourself, how good I am at sticking to this goal? Well have I been drinking? Well, you know, now you are thinking about drinking. It's like trying to end a bad relationship, and you ask yourself, do I still think about this person? And by checking, you bring to mind that person that you are trying to push off of mind. And so avoidance goes are problematic. Putting a number is often useful. We talked about the power of numbers. We like numbers. If you set your goal target is, let's say, exercising five times a week, you are going to be disappointed if you only exercised four times a week. So you kind of created the motivation to do this last thing because it will complete the goal in your mind. And then the last thing we set a goal is that it has to be intrinsically motivating. That is, it's a goal that doing it would feel a little bit or a lot like achieving it, and pursuing the goal and achieving the goal out fuse together. It means that like, you do this and you feel it's right, Can you feel like you're achieving the goal?

Yes, A few things, Okay, First, we want to define the goals such that it is connected to in a captivity, but it's sufficiently upset. It's sufficiently general so that it doesn't feel like a means say, the goal is not something that I will do so that I can do something else. It's the thing itself is. So the goal is not maybe to lose weight, which, by the way, I don't like that goal at all, so I can always use it as a bad goal. The goal is not to lose weight so that I can be attractive over summer. The goal is to feel comfortable to feel attractive. Now I ask myself, what do I need to do in order to feel that I am an attractive person? When I in the min order that I like myself powerful goals. I also usually approach goals and not avoidance goals. So it's usually it's something that you want to do and not something that you want to avoid. Losing weight is problematic because it's usually about not doing it's about not eating. If you set your goal is exercising as doing something is eating certain foods, that's easier that is less likely to bring to mind the thing that you are trying to avoid. One reason why it's so hard to overcome addiction is because the goal is usually an avoiding school. You tell yourself that you should not be drinking, and now you ask yourself, how good I am at sticking to this goal? Well have I been drinking? Well, you know, now you are thinking about drinking. It's like trying to end a bad relationship, and you ask yourself, do I still think about this person? And by checking, you bring to mind that person that you are trying to push off of mind. And so avoidance goes are problematic. Putting a number is often useful. We talked about the power of numbers. We like numbers. If you set your goal target is, let's say, exercising five times a week, you are going to be disappointed if you only exercised four times a week. So you kind of created the motivation to do this last thing because it will complete the goal in your mind. And then the last thing we set a goal is that it has to be intrinsically motivating. That is, it's a goal that doing it would feel a little bit or a lot like achieving it, and pursuing the goal and achieving the goal out fuse together. It means that like, you do this and you feel it's right, Can you feel like you're achieving the goal?

Yeah, As we were talking about intrinsic motivation. You know, another strategy that you write in the book that's been really helpful for me is to shrink the distance as much as possible between the activity and the reward. Right. It's why it's saving for retirement so notoriously difficult. Right, it's so far away. It's the same way like if I'm exercising so that I don't get a heart attack in twenty years. It's different when I reframed exercise for myself and went, I may enjoy it while I'm doing it, but even if I don't enjoy it while i'm doing it, very shortly thereafter, I'm going to feel much better in my body. I'm going to feel better about myself. And so all of a sudden, the distance between the activity and the goal was shrunk. Maybe I can't get all the way to I'm exercising because it feels good, because sometimes it doesn't. But I've been able in my own mind to shrink that distance down to you know ten minutes ten minutes later, I know there's going to be a good feeling with you.

Yeah, As we were talking about intrinsic motivation. You know, another strategy that you write in the book that's been really helpful for me is to shrink the distance as much as possible between the activity and the reward. Right. It's why it's saving for retirement so notoriously difficult. Right, it's so far away. It's the same way like if I'm exercising so that I don't get a heart attack in twenty years. It's different when I reframed exercise for myself and went, I may enjoy it while I'm doing it, but even if I don't enjoy it while i'm doing it, very shortly thereafter, I'm going to feel much better in my body. I'm going to feel better about myself. And so all of a sudden, the distance between the activity and the goal was shrunk. Maybe I can't get all the way to I'm exercising because it feels good, because sometimes it doesn't. But I've been able in my own mind to shrink that distance down to you know ten minutes ten minutes later, I know there's going to be a good feeling with you.

Example, she basically highlighted that by the fact that I set the goal, that already means that it's not one hundred percent intrinsically motivated.

Example, she basically highlighted that by the fact that I set the goal, that already means that it's not one hundred percent intrinsically motivated.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

All right, Like watching TV is intrinsically motivating. It's fun. It feels as good as you do that. No one sets their goal to watch more TV or it's more ice cream. Hey, we set the goal to exercise because exercise it requires that at least when you've started, you're going to feel a little bit uncomfortable. It will take a while to kick in. But if you feel good towards the end of your work cut or immediately after, then you have a much better chance. And if you're counting on filling good in ten years from not what twenty.

All right, Like watching TV is intrinsically motivating. It's fun. It feels as good as you do that. No one sets their goal to watch more TV or it's more ice cream. Hey, we set the goal to exercise because exercise it requires that at least when you've started, you're going to feel a little bit uncomfortable. It will take a while to kick in. But if you feel good towards the end of your work cut or immediately after, then you have a much better chance. And if you're counting on filling good in ten years from not what twenty.

Yeah, or even if you're working out to look good like, that's a goal that's coming over time. It comes, but it's not as immediate. So you just mentioned that approach goals are broadly speaking, better than avoidance goals. It's better to say I want this positive thing, then I want to avoid this negative thing. Obviously, in some circumstances. I'm a recovering alcoholic and heroin addics, so I needed an avoidance goal at a certain point, right, There was no getting around that, although there is certainly a way of even with that, focusing on what good things come into my life as a result of that, you know, so that it's not only not doing You know often talking with people who are early in recovery about yeah, it's what you're giving up, but we also have to be looking at what you're going to get. But you also see in the book for some people avoidance goals work better than approach goals, that there's a personality element to this.

Yeah, or even if you're working out to look good like, that's a goal that's coming over time. It comes, but it's not as immediate. So you just mentioned that approach goals are broadly speaking, better than avoidance goals. It's better to say I want this positive thing, then I want to avoid this negative thing. Obviously, in some circumstances. I'm a recovering alcoholic and heroin addics, so I needed an avoidance goal at a certain point, right, There was no getting around that, although there is certainly a way of even with that, focusing on what good things come into my life as a result of that, you know, so that it's not only not doing You know often talking with people who are early in recovery about yeah, it's what you're giving up, but we also have to be looking at what you're going to get. But you also see in the book for some people avoidance goals work better than approach goals, that there's a personality element to this.

Yeah, so two things you know. First, you're right that avoidance schools are common, and they also have some sense of urgency. If you think that you should not do something, it sounds like you should not do it starting.

Yeah, so two things you know. First, you're right that avoidance schools are common, and they also have some sense of urgency. If you think that you should not do something, it sounds like you should not do it starting.

Now, h I guess. Yeah.

Now, h I guess. Yeah.

Yeah, Like if you say I should not smoke, you don't mean I should not smoke in a month from now. You mean I should not smoke starting today, Versus if you say I should eat more green vegetables or bring more water, Well, this sounds like something that maybe I can start tomorrow, next week, and that's fine. So avoiding schools have the element of urgency, and then there are individual differences. So some people we spawn more to avoidance schools. Some people are more in the mindset of avoiding danger, of avoiding sickness. Basically they respawn to warning more than others that are more to approach goals. There was also something that I wanted to say as you were talking so openly about overcoming addiction, which is about framing. Okay, Often we have a choice about whether we want to think about our goal in terms of avoidance or approach. Am I trying to end a bad relationship or start a healthy relationship? Am I trying to avoid certain substance or approach others that are healthier for me? How do I think about my leisure time? Are the activities that I should not engage in? Or are the activities that I should engage? And we do have a choice in how we think about our goals.

Yeah, Like if you say I should not smoke, you don't mean I should not smoke in a month from now. You mean I should not smoke starting today, Versus if you say I should eat more green vegetables or bring more water, Well, this sounds like something that maybe I can start tomorrow, next week, and that's fine. So avoiding schools have the element of urgency, and then there are individual differences. So some people we spawn more to avoidance schools. Some people are more in the mindset of avoiding danger, of avoiding sickness. Basically they respawn to warning more than others that are more to approach goals. There was also something that I wanted to say as you were talking so openly about overcoming addiction, which is about framing. Okay, Often we have a choice about whether we want to think about our goal in terms of avoidance or approach. Am I trying to end a bad relationship or start a healthy relationship? Am I trying to avoid certain substance or approach others that are healthier for me? How do I think about my leisure time? Are the activities that I should not engage in? Or are the activities that I should engage? And we do have a choice in how we think about our goals.

Yeah, I was just thinking as you were talking about TV and how nobody needs to set a goal to watch TV, but people will often want to set a goal to watch less TV. And what's interesting though in doing that is why, right, why do you want to watch less TV. Generally, it's because there's something else that you want to be doing, there's something else that you think is more valuable. But if I've not gotten clear on that, then it's very difficult to do because not only will I be uncertain of why this goal is important, it will be entirely in avoidance and it won't be an approach goal. Whereas if I go, okay, well, what I want to do is practice guitar two more hours each week. What's getting in the way, Oh it's TV. Okay, Well, now I know why I'm giving up two hours of TV. It's for this positive it's for this good thing. It's not just something I'm denying myself, you know. And so with anything with eating differently, the more I'm able to frame that choice as not a self denial but a self gift, almost you know, I'm eating healthy because I'm not denying myself bad food. I'm giving myself healthy food. I'm giving myself the chance to feel better. Like you're saying it's a total framing question.

Yeah, I was just thinking as you were talking about TV and how nobody needs to set a goal to watch TV, but people will often want to set a goal to watch less TV. And what's interesting though in doing that is why, right, why do you want to watch less TV. Generally, it's because there's something else that you want to be doing, there's something else that you think is more valuable. But if I've not gotten clear on that, then it's very difficult to do because not only will I be uncertain of why this goal is important, it will be entirely in avoidance and it won't be an approach goal. Whereas if I go, okay, well, what I want to do is practice guitar two more hours each week. What's getting in the way, Oh it's TV. Okay, Well, now I know why I'm giving up two hours of TV. It's for this positive it's for this good thing. It's not just something I'm denying myself, you know. And so with anything with eating differently, the more I'm able to frame that choice as not a self denial but a self gift, almost you know, I'm eating healthy because I'm not denying myself bad food. I'm giving myself healthy food. I'm giving myself the chance to feel better. Like you're saying it's a total framing question.

I absolutely agree. I would say that this is unso a nice example of overestimating willpower, and you know, making the mistake of thinking just a matter of wanting this strongly enough. If I just be determined not to watch TV, then I will not watch TV. But that's not going to work. If I schedule time to play my guitar, either in my mind or with a friend or you know, with a teacher, well then I'm not watching TV because I'm playing my guitar.

I absolutely agree. I would say that this is unso a nice example of overestimating willpower, and you know, making the mistake of thinking just a matter of wanting this strongly enough. If I just be determined not to watch TV, then I will not watch TV. But that's not going to work. If I schedule time to play my guitar, either in my mind or with a friend or you know, with a teacher, well then I'm not watching TV because I'm playing my guitar.

Then I want to come back to something you just said there, which was with a friend or with a teacher, both of which things are social support, and how important social support is in all this, and I want to get back there. But I want to hit what you just said because you said, well, I don't play guitar. Now I'm assuming the reason you don't play guitar or another instrument is not because you're intrinsically lazy. It's because you have the same problem we all have, which is that we only have so much time, so we have to choose what we do. And so this really gets into the idea of competing goals. We have these competing goals, and if we're not clear about them, we will often end up kind of going in circles. You know, just I'm doing this, but then then this starts to get in the way. So I stop doing that and then I do this for me. The more I've been able to acknowledge competing goals, like, Okay, these two things, I want to do them both, I can't do them both. I mean, a great example for me was when I started this podcast, I also wanted to be in a band again, and I kept feeling bad that I wasn't in a band, and I finally went and I looked at it and I went, my job makes me travel, and I'm trying to do this podcast, and if I want to do this podcast really well, then I can't do both. And so I chose the podcast. I made a decision which you would call prioritizing versus compromising. So talk to us about goal competition and prioritizing versus compromising.

Then I want to come back to something you just said there, which was with a friend or with a teacher, both of which things are social support, and how important social support is in all this, and I want to get back there. But I want to hit what you just said because you said, well, I don't play guitar. Now I'm assuming the reason you don't play guitar or another instrument is not because you're intrinsically lazy. It's because you have the same problem we all have, which is that we only have so much time, so we have to choose what we do. And so this really gets into the idea of competing goals. We have these competing goals, and if we're not clear about them, we will often end up kind of going in circles. You know, just I'm doing this, but then then this starts to get in the way. So I stop doing that and then I do this for me. The more I've been able to acknowledge competing goals, like, Okay, these two things, I want to do them both, I can't do them both. I mean, a great example for me was when I started this podcast, I also wanted to be in a band again, and I kept feeling bad that I wasn't in a band, and I finally went and I looked at it and I went, my job makes me travel, and I'm trying to do this podcast, and if I want to do this podcast really well, then I can't do both. And so I chose the podcast. I made a decision which you would call prioritizing versus compromising. So talk to us about goal competition and prioritizing versus compromising.

You know, a very good friend this usually gives the best advice. Once gave me a really dumb advice, and the advice, if you want to do something and you don't have time, just wake up an hour earlier. And you know, I always thought that this is a really dumb advice, because you know, if you wake up one hour earlier, then you go to sleep one hour earlier because you still need you full night and so that really doesn't work. There is really only twenty four hours in a day, and some of them you will spend sleeping, So you have to start with that. There is so much that you can do and except it and be willing to work with This is the first step. And then you know, we all want to do many things, and the first thing to decide is whether we are trying to create balance, we want to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that, or are we trying to prioritizely are we trying to put something ahead of other things? Okay, So do I want to create a balance between staying late in bed and reading a book in the morning and exercising in the morning, or do I want to put exercising ahead of this hour or in bed in the morning with social media hour book or what's not If we decide to prioritize, then it's a matter of self control. Okay. So now we have something that we want to do more than another thing, and we can talk about the strategies of self control, which is not about willpower. Okay, It's not about saying I really need to do it. It's about changing the situation. So you have a better chance. But if I want to strike the right balance, it's really about planning. It's really about thinking, well, on some days, I'm going to be waiting in bed. On other days, I'm going to get up early and exercise, and maybe it's a week day versus we can And it's really a matter of how I'm going to organize my life so that I can do all the things that I enjoy doing or the things that are important for me. And the strategies that involve monitoring multiple goals which we all have all the time, start with asking this simple question, am I trying to find the compromise or prioritize one over the other.

You know, a very good friend this usually gives the best advice. Once gave me a really dumb advice, and the advice, if you want to do something and you don't have time, just wake up an hour earlier. And you know, I always thought that this is a really dumb advice, because you know, if you wake up one hour earlier, then you go to sleep one hour earlier because you still need you full night and so that really doesn't work. There is really only twenty four hours in a day, and some of them you will spend sleeping, So you have to start with that. There is so much that you can do and except it and be willing to work with This is the first step. And then you know, we all want to do many things, and the first thing to decide is whether we are trying to create balance, we want to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that, or are we trying to prioritizely are we trying to put something ahead of other things? Okay, So do I want to create a balance between staying late in bed and reading a book in the morning and exercising in the morning, or do I want to put exercising ahead of this hour or in bed in the morning with social media hour book or what's not If we decide to prioritize, then it's a matter of self control. Okay. So now we have something that we want to do more than another thing, and we can talk about the strategies of self control, which is not about willpower. Okay, It's not about saying I really need to do it. It's about changing the situation. So you have a better chance. But if I want to strike the right balance, it's really about planning. It's really about thinking, well, on some days, I'm going to be waiting in bed. On other days, I'm going to get up early and exercise, and maybe it's a week day versus we can And it's really a matter of how I'm going to organize my life so that I can do all the things that I enjoy doing or the things that are important for me. And the strategies that involve monitoring multiple goals which we all have all the time, start with asking this simple question, am I trying to find the compromise or prioritize one over the other.

So an example of this would be, if I want to prioritize my career, then I am probably going to spend more time on my career than I am. Let's say I have a family, with my family versus the compromise would be you know what, I really want to strike a balance between those two or going the other direction, I'm really going to prioritize the family, which means that I'm going to spend less time on career and we'll get the results accordingly, right, I mean, again, we can't control external results. But generally speaking, if I spend more time with my family in an intentional way, is probably going to be better. And if I spend more time on my career an intentional way, it's probably going to go better. And I think that making that decision is so important. I don't know if you're familiar with the book.

So an example of this would be, if I want to prioritize my career, then I am probably going to spend more time on my career than I am. Let's say I have a family, with my family versus the compromise would be you know what, I really want to strike a balance between those two or going the other direction, I'm really going to prioritize the family, which means that I'm going to spend less time on career and we'll get the results accordingly, right, I mean, again, we can't control external results. But generally speaking, if I spend more time with my family in an intentional way, is probably going to be better. And if I spend more time on my career an intentional way, it's probably going to go better. And I think that making that decision is so important. I don't know if you're familiar with the book.

I think it's called.

I think it's called.

Ten Thousand Weeks by a guy named Oliver Berkman. It's a book about time management. The book comes down to him basically saying, you have to face the existential fact that A you're going to die. B you only have so much time, and that when you continue to think you can do all these different things, you're just deceiving yourself.

Ten Thousand Weeks by a guy named Oliver Berkman. It's a book about time management. The book comes down to him basically saying, you have to face the existential fact that A you're going to die. B you only have so much time, and that when you continue to think you can do all these different things, you're just deceiving yourself.

You have to choose.

You have to choose.

You have to really think about what's important, and then you have to choose, which is very much common sense, but not necessarily what a lot of us do.

You have to really think about what's important, and then you have to choose, which is very much common sense, but not necessarily what a lot of us do.

Why do you.

Why do you.

Think that a lot of people are jumping from goal to goal to goal to goal. You know, like this week it's meditation practice, and then a month later it's working on my exercise, and then I think I need to take up journaling, and then I'm not like building on these things I'm sort of doing one for a little while, and I'm jumping ship and I'm picking up the next thing. Why do you think that's happening?

Think that a lot of people are jumping from goal to goal to goal to goal. You know, like this week it's meditation practice, and then a month later it's working on my exercise, and then I think I need to take up journaling, and then I'm not like building on these things I'm sort of doing one for a little while, and I'm jumping ship and I'm picking up the next thing. Why do you think that's happening?

So part of it is a healthy variety seeking. Okay, when we talk about exercising, it's actually for many people a good strategy to jump around well also quite literally, but also jumping between the you know, ladison on one week and yoga on the other and then running, swimming, whatever. That's actually often good for your body, that good for your spirit because you're more interested. So no problem with that. The problem with jumping between goals is, well, what if they undermine each other? So what if you are decided that you are going to save money and then you also go on like the shopping spray on the next week, because like it was a weekend before that you decided to save today you have something else in mind, or you know, you decide to eat certain foods on one day, but then completely under it on the following day or on the next meal, and then we say, well, here, balancing when your goals doesn't make sense. We also find in studies that sometimes people balancing advance. So because I think that I will be eating more healthily tomorrow. I feel that it's right to indulge now, And you know then it makes no sense because you basically use the future as an excuse. Okay, because I'm going to do what's good for me. Then I can spend money or lose my temper or eat unhealthy food right now. So these patterns of juggling between was unhealthy and require more planning. Now why people do that? Why people tell me on Monday that they are in a program of eating healthier food and on Tuesday that they are into baking cookies. Well, because we respond to the situation. This is where we started. Circumstances affect what we do, and you know, the people around us suggest some ideas and we want to try it out, and unless we are able to step out, okay and kind of look at what we do from some distance. The psychologist a stereopapist has these studies about teaching people to think about the temptations as ideas in their minds that you don't need to act on it. Hey, you can just acknowledge that you have this thought, okay, that this is something that courses your mind, and you can engage with them and think about as yourself how interesting it is that you have these ideas and you don't necessarily have to act on them in a way to counteract the effect of situational primesay of these cues that lead us to do things that then we look at ourselves and say, oh, well, that was completely inconsistent with the person that I want to be.

So part of it is a healthy variety seeking. Okay, when we talk about exercising, it's actually for many people a good strategy to jump around well also quite literally, but also jumping between the you know, ladison on one week and yoga on the other and then running, swimming, whatever. That's actually often good for your body, that good for your spirit because you're more interested. So no problem with that. The problem with jumping between goals is, well, what if they undermine each other? So what if you are decided that you are going to save money and then you also go on like the shopping spray on the next week, because like it was a weekend before that you decided to save today you have something else in mind, or you know, you decide to eat certain foods on one day, but then completely under it on the following day or on the next meal, and then we say, well, here, balancing when your goals doesn't make sense. We also find in studies that sometimes people balancing advance. So because I think that I will be eating more healthily tomorrow. I feel that it's right to indulge now, And you know then it makes no sense because you basically use the future as an excuse. Okay, because I'm going to do what's good for me. Then I can spend money or lose my temper or eat unhealthy food right now. So these patterns of juggling between was unhealthy and require more planning. Now why people do that? Why people tell me on Monday that they are in a program of eating healthier food and on Tuesday that they are into baking cookies. Well, because we respond to the situation. This is where we started. Circumstances affect what we do, and you know, the people around us suggest some ideas and we want to try it out, and unless we are able to step out, okay and kind of look at what we do from some distance. The psychologist a stereopapist has these studies about teaching people to think about the temptations as ideas in their minds that you don't need to act on it. Hey, you can just acknowledge that you have this thought, okay, that this is something that courses your mind, and you can engage with them and think about as yourself how interesting it is that you have these ideas and you don't necessarily have to act on them in a way to counteract the effect of situational primesay of these cues that lead us to do things that then we look at ourselves and say, oh, well, that was completely inconsistent with the person that I want to be.

The other reason we do some goal hopping is another point you make in your book. You call it the middle problem or the problem of the middle, which is that things are exciting in the beginning and they're exciting in the end. In between, they're oft and not. So. I think a lot of times we get off to a start and we're like, all right, I'm exercising and it's good. I'm making these changes that feel good. And then it becomes kind of normal and we're going along, and then somebody says, you know, boy, meditation really changed my life. And we're like, oh, well, that sounds good because we're in the boring middle part, and so we jump out and meditation in the beginning feels very exciting, and then we get into the middle, and so that insight that the middle is problematic. Talk a little more about that.

The other reason we do some goal hopping is another point you make in your book. You call it the middle problem or the problem of the middle, which is that things are exciting in the beginning and they're exciting in the end. In between, they're oft and not. So. I think a lot of times we get off to a start and we're like, all right, I'm exercising and it's good. I'm making these changes that feel good. And then it becomes kind of normal and we're going along, and then somebody says, you know, boy, meditation really changed my life. And we're like, oh, well, that sounds good because we're in the boring middle part, and so we jump out and meditation in the beginning feels very exciting, and then we get into the middle, and so that insight that the middle is problematic. Talk a little more about that.

Yes, that's the problem with middles or the middle problem, and the middle problem happens every time we have a goal that takes more than two seconds. There is a beginning and end in the middle, and our motivation is very high. At the beginning starting on something, we are excited, we proceed fast progress towards the end also that we are almost there okay, so we see fast progress and we want to get there. In the middle is when it's hard to see progress. Your actions feel like you're up in the ocean, and so it's just hard to stay motivated. We are sawing in one study that was a cute study. We went it in Israel around the Annoka holiday. If you're unfamiliar with the tradition, if you're observing Hanukah, the only thing that you need to do is light. Then we know our eight coxecutive nights. So it's really not very hard, except that around seventy eighty percent of our participants, the people that we serve it in the study, we're lighting them man nouea on the first day. More the majority of them we're lighting the manuea on the last day, and in the middle day we're not really doing it. Kind of forgot about their goal. We see that some interventions are directed to tackle the middle problems. Katie Milkman's the fresh start effect comes to mind as a way to think about Monday, is the beginning of the week, or the first day of the month, or your birthday or a holiday as a reset, as a start, so that it helps you to go back to the energy that you head at the beginning. What I often suggest is to have goals that use time brackets. Use these time brackets wisely, and exercise goal should be probably a weekly goals. So if you set yourself to exercise for one hundred and fifty minutes this week, then there is a beginning, there is end. There is not a long middle. If you think about exercise we now and you know the end of your life, then everything is a middle. Saving goals the same like it's really hard to save for retirement. We mentioned it because it's so far, But if we set it as a monthly saving goals or in annual saving goals, now there is a beginning, there is end. The middle is not so long so that you forget that you even have this columni plate.

Yes, that's the problem with middles or the middle problem, and the middle problem happens every time we have a goal that takes more than two seconds. There is a beginning and end in the middle, and our motivation is very high. At the beginning starting on something, we are excited, we proceed fast progress towards the end also that we are almost there okay, so we see fast progress and we want to get there. In the middle is when it's hard to see progress. Your actions feel like you're up in the ocean, and so it's just hard to stay motivated. We are sawing in one study that was a cute study. We went it in Israel around the Annoka holiday. If you're unfamiliar with the tradition, if you're observing Hanukah, the only thing that you need to do is light. Then we know our eight coxecutive nights. So it's really not very hard, except that around seventy eighty percent of our participants, the people that we serve it in the study, we're lighting them man nouea on the first day. More the majority of them we're lighting the manuea on the last day, and in the middle day we're not really doing it. Kind of forgot about their goal. We see that some interventions are directed to tackle the middle problems. Katie Milkman's the fresh start effect comes to mind as a way to think about Monday, is the beginning of the week, or the first day of the month, or your birthday or a holiday as a reset, as a start, so that it helps you to go back to the energy that you head at the beginning. What I often suggest is to have goals that use time brackets. Use these time brackets wisely, and exercise goal should be probably a weekly goals. So if you set yourself to exercise for one hundred and fifty minutes this week, then there is a beginning, there is end. There is not a long middle. If you think about exercise we now and you know the end of your life, then everything is a middle. Saving goals the same like it's really hard to save for retirement. We mentioned it because it's so far, But if we set it as a monthly saving goals or in annual saving goals, now there is a beginning, there is end. The middle is not so long so that you forget that you even have this columni plate.

I think that's such wise strategy. Changing direction just a little bit I want to think about something like practicing guitar. These are things for me, meditating, exercising, that are things that I don't have an end point in mind. I'm not practicing guitar so that I can learn to play this one song then I'm done. I'm not meditating, you know, so that I can have twenty minutes of feeling happy. So these are things that go on and on and on. Is it okay to have things that go on and on and on or is it really helpful even with something like that to put some milestones in place to sort of keep it a little more interesting. Yes.