Life can be overwhelming, racing thoughts, endless decisions, and that feeling of being stuck in a loop of fear, anxiety, or indecision. But what if you had some simple, actionable tools to help you find clarity and calm even in the toughest moments. And that's exactly what wise Habits is here to offer. It's a six week program designed to help you navigate life's challenges with a greater sense of ease and confidence. This isn't about adding more to your to do list or chasing perfection, because who needs either of those things. It's about integrating small, meaningful practices into your daily life that help you feel more present, connected, and in control. Through weekly workshops that I lead, supportive small group connections, and daily nudges to help you keep grounded, Wise Habits meets you where you are and helps you build a life that feels lighter, more intentional, and aligned with what matters. Most hundreds of people have been through this program in the past and loved it. Enrollment is open now and the next group begins February second. Don't wait to take the first step towards a life that feels calmer and more in tune with who you want to be. Visit one you feed dot net slash wise habits to join today, because little by little, a little becomes a lot. Visit one you feed dot net slash wise habits to join today.

Life can be overwhelming, racing thoughts, endless decisions, and that feeling of being stuck in a loop of fear, anxiety, or indecision. But what if you had some simple, actionable tools to help you find clarity and calm even in the toughest moments. And that's exactly what wise Habits is here to offer. It's a six week program designed to help you navigate life's challenges with a greater sense of ease and confidence. This isn't about adding more to your to do list or chasing perfection, because who needs either of those things. It's about integrating small, meaningful practices into your daily life that help you feel more present, connected, and in control. Through weekly workshops that I lead, supportive small group connections, and daily nudges to help you keep grounded, Wise Habits meets you where you are and helps you build a life that feels lighter, more intentional, and aligned with what matters. Most hundreds of people have been through this program in the past and loved it. Enrollment is open now and the next group begins February second. Don't wait to take the first step towards a life that feels calmer and more in tune with who you want to be. Visit one you feed dot net slash wise habits to join today, because little by little, a little becomes a lot. Visit one you feed dot net slash wise habits to join today.

We need kind of like a consumptive pyramid of how much toxic news we can tolerate. Maybe it's good to know some of what's going on in the world of politics where people are yelling at each other, or some of what's going on in the world of culture where people are yelling at each other. But if you eat too much of that, it's going to poison you.

We need kind of like a consumptive pyramid of how much toxic news we can tolerate. Maybe it's good to know some of what's going on in the world of politics where people are yelling at each other, or some of what's going on in the world of culture where people are yelling at each other. But if you eat too much of that, it's going to poison you.

Wow, welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Wow, welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

What if the way we approach change, both in others and in ourselves is all wrong. What if instead of criticism, we learn to lead with compassion. Tim Shriver, a lifelong advocate for inclusion and dignity, shared something with me that stopped me in my tracks. Oppositional energy creates oppositional energy, simple yet profound. Think about it. How often do we try to force change only to meet resistance. In today's episode, we explore how seeing the world through the lens of the Special Olympics transformed Tim's understanding of humanity. We'll dive into stories of profound resilience, the hidden gifts of those often overlooked, and how feeding the good wolf in ourselves might be the key to creating a better world for everyone. I'll also share a moment where I stumbled, Yes, I accidentally compared people to octopuses or is that OCTOPI I'm not sure, but it taught me something deeper about perspective, humor, and grace. By the end of this episode, you'll walk away inspire to see people and yourself in a whole new way. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. It's time to feed the good wolf. Hi, Tim, Welcome to the show.

What if the way we approach change, both in others and in ourselves is all wrong. What if instead of criticism, we learn to lead with compassion. Tim Shriver, a lifelong advocate for inclusion and dignity, shared something with me that stopped me in my tracks. Oppositional energy creates oppositional energy, simple yet profound. Think about it. How often do we try to force change only to meet resistance. In today's episode, we explore how seeing the world through the lens of the Special Olympics transformed Tim's understanding of humanity. We'll dive into stories of profound resilience, the hidden gifts of those often overlooked, and how feeding the good wolf in ourselves might be the key to creating a better world for everyone. I'll also share a moment where I stumbled, Yes, I accidentally compared people to octopuses or is that OCTOPI I'm not sure, but it taught me something deeper about perspective, humor, and grace. By the end of this episode, you'll walk away inspire to see people and yourself in a whole new way. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. It's time to feed the good wolf. Hi, Tim, Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Delighted to be with you and your wolves.

Thank you. Delighted to be with you and your wolves.

Yes, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. As I dove deeper into your work, I liked you and your ideas more and more and more.

Yes, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. As I dove deeper into your work, I liked you and your ideas more and more and more.

So that's nice. Thank you.

So that's nice. Thank you.

Think there's a lot of great stuff to talk about here, but we'll start in the way we normally do, which is with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to know what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Think there's a lot of great stuff to talk about here, but we'll start in the way we normally do, which is with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to know what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well. I mean, first of all, I think it's a beautiful story. It has this quality of intimacy when you think about this child and this elder wondering and thinking about these questions together, the goodness and the evil in the world, how we prevail, how we make decisions. So I think it's a beautiful parable. You know, when I've heard it in recent years, Eric, it's always reminded me that the good wolf within us feels malnourished. You know, I've worked in the Special Olympics movement for basically all my life, in one way or another, as a teacher. For a good part of my life. I feel like I've had a front row seat for people who are just doing beautiful work, just giving of themselves, full of compassion, zeal, energy, a determination to change the world in the most hopeful and positive of ways. So I feel like the good wolf in me has been fed at a banquet. But I look around me and I talk to people, my children, you know, my friends, people I know and care about. They feel so discouraged and so beaten down by the incoming messages and the culture. And I think that, you know, if I were extending this metaphor, I would say the evil wolf, the bad wolf, is stuffed to being engorged almost with food, overfed, and the good wolf is sort of over in the corner, starving for food. And I think it's just an invitation for us to remember that we have the good wolf within us, and that feeding it, both for ourselves and for others, is a recipe for changing the course of the future.

Well. I mean, first of all, I think it's a beautiful story. It has this quality of intimacy when you think about this child and this elder wondering and thinking about these questions together, the goodness and the evil in the world, how we prevail, how we make decisions. So I think it's a beautiful parable. You know, when I've heard it in recent years, Eric, it's always reminded me that the good wolf within us feels malnourished. You know, I've worked in the Special Olympics movement for basically all my life, in one way or another, as a teacher. For a good part of my life. I feel like I've had a front row seat for people who are just doing beautiful work, just giving of themselves, full of compassion, zeal, energy, a determination to change the world in the most hopeful and positive of ways. So I feel like the good wolf in me has been fed at a banquet. But I look around me and I talk to people, my children, you know, my friends, people I know and care about. They feel so discouraged and so beaten down by the incoming messages and the culture. And I think that, you know, if I were extending this metaphor, I would say the evil wolf, the bad wolf, is stuffed to being engorged almost with food, overfed, and the good wolf is sort of over in the corner, starving for food. And I think it's just an invitation for us to remember that we have the good wolf within us, and that feeding it, both for ourselves and for others, is a recipe for changing the course of the future.

I love that idea, and I think there is a real need for all of us to think about what we are feeding ourselves. I mean, obviously food is one thing, but if you are what you eat, in many ways, you are what you see and what's around you. And if we don't make an effort to look for the hopeful side of things, we don't see it. It's tacked on to like a two minute thing at the end of fifty eight minutes of awful news. Yeah, you get the two minute, cute little story. And I've just found for myself I have to actively seek that out on a regular basis in order to feed that good wolf, because it's not what shows up at the top.

I love that idea, and I think there is a real need for all of us to think about what we are feeding ourselves. I mean, obviously food is one thing, but if you are what you eat, in many ways, you are what you see and what's around you. And if we don't make an effort to look for the hopeful side of things, we don't see it. It's tacked on to like a two minute thing at the end of fifty eight minutes of awful news. Yeah, you get the two minute, cute little story. And I've just found for myself I have to actively seek that out on a regular basis in order to feed that good wolf, because it's not what shows up at the top.

Yeah. Yeah, I think you know you're pointing out this issue of like managing our incoming, like we manage our calories, or we manage our salt or our sugar, we manage our fats or our meats or whatever. We think of that sort of intuitively. This is what we do for ourselves, is what we do for our children. Don't eat too much of this, don't drink too much of that. But we're increasingly in a moment in which we are coming to realize we also have to manage what we consume at the level of our minds and our hearts. We have to actually manage it the same way we'd manage calories, or the same way we'd manage fats or sugars or whatever. I met this teacher once and she said, you know, she's so positive, so positive, bubbly, enthusiastic, tall, she's a special education teacher. And I said, well, how do you stay so positive? She said, I get up in the morning, ath you said at four thirty, and I have changed the last year. I don't let anything into my heart, into my mind through my phone that feels like a toxin to me. I do my exercise, I read my meditations and prayers, things like that. I don't let anything else in. And most of us don't think that way. We think, well, let's click on this, and let's click on that. We don't think it's poisoning us.

Yeah. Yeah, I think you know you're pointing out this issue of like managing our incoming, like we manage our calories, or we manage our salt or our sugar, we manage our fats or our meats or whatever. We think of that sort of intuitively. This is what we do for ourselves, is what we do for our children. Don't eat too much of this, don't drink too much of that. But we're increasingly in a moment in which we are coming to realize we also have to manage what we consume at the level of our minds and our hearts. We have to actually manage it the same way we'd manage calories, or the same way we'd manage fats or sugars or whatever. I met this teacher once and she said, you know, she's so positive, so positive, bubbly, enthusiastic, tall, she's a special education teacher. And I said, well, how do you stay so positive? She said, I get up in the morning, ath you said at four thirty, and I have changed the last year. I don't let anything into my heart, into my mind through my phone that feels like a toxin to me. I do my exercise, I read my meditations and prayers, things like that. I don't let anything else in. And most of us don't think that way. We think, well, let's click on this, and let's click on that. We don't think it's poisoning us.

Yeah, I think that's a key.

Yeah, I think that's a key.

Is poisoning us.

Is poisoning us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, So we've got a whole new challenge, Like you know that food pyramid that we used to see, uh in schools and stuff with you know, this much carbohydrates and this much fast as much we need, kind of like a consumptive pyramid of how much toxic news we can tolerate. Like maybe it's good to know some of what's going on in the world of politics where people are yelling at each other, or some of what's going on in the world of culture where people are yelling at each other, or maybe we need to know some of that. But if you eat too much of that, it's going to poison you. Yeah. Yeah. You need something that's going to remind you that there is peace within you, that there is a wholeness out there in the world, that there are people filled with compassion. That's what I'm trying to do with Need a Lift, you know, which is the podcast I've been working on the last several months. I'm way behind you, but trying to we are aligned, you know, And what I'm looking for is people who are looking at situations where there's pain and bringing purpose, looking at situations where there's despair and bringing hope, looking at situations where it looks like things are overwhelming. But these are people who are finding the inner resolve, Like their inner life is strong. You know, they've found a spiritual kind of or an emotional foundation that allows them to navigate hard incoming negativity and transform it into something hopeful and you know, devoid of hatred and contempt. So look, I agree with you. We need a lot more attention to what we consume through our minds and our hearts, and we need a lot more attention to identifying those people who will inspire our minds and our hearts to believe in ourselves and in each other.

Yeah, So we've got a whole new challenge, Like you know that food pyramid that we used to see, uh in schools and stuff with you know, this much carbohydrates and this much fast as much we need, kind of like a consumptive pyramid of how much toxic news we can tolerate. Like maybe it's good to know some of what's going on in the world of politics where people are yelling at each other, or some of what's going on in the world of culture where people are yelling at each other, or maybe we need to know some of that. But if you eat too much of that, it's going to poison you. Yeah. Yeah. You need something that's going to remind you that there is peace within you, that there is a wholeness out there in the world, that there are people filled with compassion. That's what I'm trying to do with Need a Lift, you know, which is the podcast I've been working on the last several months. I'm way behind you, but trying to we are aligned, you know, And what I'm looking for is people who are looking at situations where there's pain and bringing purpose, looking at situations where there's despair and bringing hope, looking at situations where it looks like things are overwhelming. But these are people who are finding the inner resolve, Like their inner life is strong. You know, they've found a spiritual kind of or an emotional foundation that allows them to navigate hard incoming negativity and transform it into something hopeful and you know, devoid of hatred and contempt. So look, I agree with you. We need a lot more attention to what we consume through our minds and our hearts, and we need a lot more attention to identifying those people who will inspire our minds and our hearts to believe in ourselves and in each other.

Yeah, you say, somewhere, I found myself over and over again, confused by the strength of people who seem to be experiencing both pain and triumph at the same time. Say more about that.

Yeah, you say, somewhere, I found myself over and over again, confused by the strength of people who seem to be experiencing both pain and triumph at the same time. Say more about that.

Well, I think one of the riddles of people who have the good wolf well fed is that it often gets fed in moments of turmoil, in moments of stress. You know, there's the line from one of the spiritual teachers this say, is you know, no great spiritual progress is made in times of comfort. So many of the people I've had the privilege I meet moms, for instance, who have children, let's say, with down syndrome, who were told from the moment of birth, your child doesn't matter, your child's going to be a burden. Your child isn't going to be able to make you proud, you know, to have friends, to go to school, to learn to read. All these messages that these moms and dads are bombarded with. And I come into their lives, and what do I see? I see this youth ouge smile. I see this endless optimism. I see this kind of almost invulnerable hopefulness, like nothing can beat them up, Like you can't say anything that would sap their spirit of its energy. So I wonder, you know, that's a strength that's been refined in a fire of difficult and challenging and often oppositional energy. But they come out of it. Many times, not everybody, you know, and many of us have these experiences in small ways, and we get bitter and angry, yeah, and resentful, And we all do that. I mean I do it when we see people who have had these experiences and come out of them seemingly with hearts that are almost exploding with love. I think to myself, Man, I'm in the presence of greatness, you know. And it may just be a mom with a eight year old little daughter who has, you know, down syndrome, bringing her to a fifty meters dash, But man, does she radiate the kind of energy I want to live in.

Well, I think one of the riddles of people who have the good wolf well fed is that it often gets fed in moments of turmoil, in moments of stress. You know, there's the line from one of the spiritual teachers this say, is you know, no great spiritual progress is made in times of comfort. So many of the people I've had the privilege I meet moms, for instance, who have children, let's say, with down syndrome, who were told from the moment of birth, your child doesn't matter, your child's going to be a burden. Your child isn't going to be able to make you proud, you know, to have friends, to go to school, to learn to read. All these messages that these moms and dads are bombarded with. And I come into their lives, and what do I see? I see this youth ouge smile. I see this endless optimism. I see this kind of almost invulnerable hopefulness, like nothing can beat them up, Like you can't say anything that would sap their spirit of its energy. So I wonder, you know, that's a strength that's been refined in a fire of difficult and challenging and often oppositional energy. But they come out of it. Many times, not everybody, you know, and many of us have these experiences in small ways, and we get bitter and angry, yeah, and resentful, And we all do that. I mean I do it when we see people who have had these experiences and come out of them seemingly with hearts that are almost exploding with love. I think to myself, Man, I'm in the presence of greatness, you know. And it may just be a mom with a eight year old little daughter who has, you know, down syndrome, bringing her to a fifty meters dash, But man, does she radiate the kind of energy I want to live in.

It's so interesting what you're describing there. And I've heard you talk elsewhere about you know, one of the things that the Special Olympics, doing all that work taught you was to look at people from a different angle than the one we societally normally do. And this is a crazy analogy I'm about to make here, but you're talking about a type of capacity in these people that reminds me of when I think about octopuses. And what I mean by that is they have an intelligence that is so different than ours that is just fascinating. They can make their skin change color instantly. I mean, I could go on and on about them, but it's this completely different type of capacity, and I think what I've gotten from your work is learning to see that capacity in people who may have intellectual disabilities or other types. There's a quality of heart that could be found there that a lot of us that are going about our day and our you know, quote unquote more normal may not have as much.

It's so interesting what you're describing there. And I've heard you talk elsewhere about you know, one of the things that the Special Olympics, doing all that work taught you was to look at people from a different angle than the one we societally normally do. And this is a crazy analogy I'm about to make here, but you're talking about a type of capacity in these people that reminds me of when I think about octopuses. And what I mean by that is they have an intelligence that is so different than ours that is just fascinating. They can make their skin change color instantly. I mean, I could go on and on about them, but it's this completely different type of capacity, and I think what I've gotten from your work is learning to see that capacity in people who may have intellectual disabilities or other types. There's a quality of heart that could be found there that a lot of us that are going about our day and our you know, quote unquote more normal may not have as much.

Of Yeah, I think you know the irony. I think you're right. I'm not sure about how octopuses work, so I'm going to I'm going to let your listeners figure out how to google ad and figure out where that lands. But it makes sense to me. And this is often the tragedy that people who have experienced great rejection developed the capacity for great acceptance. You know, what is the unique gift that people with intellectual differences often bring to the table. It's their common experience of having been often rejected. And again that's not a good thing, that's a horrible thing, but it often has nurtured in them a kind of a tenderness and a gentleness and openness to people that they themselves might not have experienced from others, but that they themselves develop and give back to others. You know, there's a quality in people aria I would say, you know, in the good wolf side of us, maybe we all have it at some level that just kind of doesn't hold our weaknesses against us. I would say, if you go to a special Olympics event, there's not a single person in the crowd who hasn't at some level discriminated against people with intellectual disability. Right. I mean literally everybody there has in the back and sometimes very much in the front of their mind, thought, these people are too different. I can't hire them. I don't want to live with them. I don't want one of them in my family. I don't want them in my child school. Maybe they haven't said it, but they felt it, and the Special Olympics athletes know they felt it. And yet when they look across at the person in the stands, or at the persons serving water at the finished line, or the person helping to line the field, our athletes just seem to have the capacity to go, I get it, but I'm still okay with you. I'm still going to give you a hug. Yeah. And that's not restricted to people with intellectual challenges, for sure. But that quality, which I've learned in many ways from them, I believe to be central to feeding the good wolf. I believe that when the good wolf is fed, that part of us has this big capacity not to give people a pass when they make mistakes, but to kind of let them know that we get it to maybe challenge them, if they've made a mistake, to change without hatred, without acrimy, without name calling, without brutality, without a vicious need to humiliate the mistake maker, but instead kind of with an open, welcoming sense in which here we are, now, this is your chance to grow through what you've just done or experienced. You know where we're really good as a culture at calling people out. We're not so good at helping people change and finding ways to rehability people. We're good at throwing people in jail, you know, emotional jail, physical jail. We're not very good at helping people come back. In my view, this Special Olympics community is really good at helping people rehabilitate so.

Of Yeah, I think you know the irony. I think you're right. I'm not sure about how octopuses work, so I'm going to I'm going to let your listeners figure out how to google ad and figure out where that lands. But it makes sense to me. And this is often the tragedy that people who have experienced great rejection developed the capacity for great acceptance. You know, what is the unique gift that people with intellectual differences often bring to the table. It's their common experience of having been often rejected. And again that's not a good thing, that's a horrible thing, but it often has nurtured in them a kind of a tenderness and a gentleness and openness to people that they themselves might not have experienced from others, but that they themselves develop and give back to others. You know, there's a quality in people aria I would say, you know, in the good wolf side of us, maybe we all have it at some level that just kind of doesn't hold our weaknesses against us. I would say, if you go to a special Olympics event, there's not a single person in the crowd who hasn't at some level discriminated against people with intellectual disability. Right. I mean literally everybody there has in the back and sometimes very much in the front of their mind, thought, these people are too different. I can't hire them. I don't want to live with them. I don't want one of them in my family. I don't want them in my child school. Maybe they haven't said it, but they felt it, and the Special Olympics athletes know they felt it. And yet when they look across at the person in the stands, or at the persons serving water at the finished line, or the person helping to line the field, our athletes just seem to have the capacity to go, I get it, but I'm still okay with you. I'm still going to give you a hug. Yeah. And that's not restricted to people with intellectual challenges, for sure. But that quality, which I've learned in many ways from them, I believe to be central to feeding the good wolf. I believe that when the good wolf is fed, that part of us has this big capacity not to give people a pass when they make mistakes, but to kind of let them know that we get it to maybe challenge them, if they've made a mistake, to change without hatred, without acrimy, without name calling, without brutality, without a vicious need to humiliate the mistake maker, but instead kind of with an open, welcoming sense in which here we are, now, this is your chance to grow through what you've just done or experienced. You know where we're really good as a culture at calling people out. We're not so good at helping people change and finding ways to rehability people. We're good at throwing people in jail, you know, emotional jail, physical jail. We're not very good at helping people come back. In my view, this Special Olympics community is really good at helping people rehabilitate so.

They would get over an idiotic podcast host comparative octopuses. You don't have to worry about it.

They would get over an idiotic podcast host comparative octopuses. You don't have to worry about it.

No one's good. I mean, it's a good point. Yeah, but I mean, seriously, let's just say, let's just say you'd made a big blunder here. You'd said something and you thought, oh my god, I can't believe I said that, which, of course everyone has done that, right, I've done it a million times. I'm like, oh, No, I can't believe I just said that. You know, it's special Olympics.

No one's good. I mean, it's a good point. Yeah, but I mean, seriously, let's just say, let's just say you'd made a big blunder here. You'd said something and you thought, oh my god, I can't believe I said that, which, of course everyone has done that, right, I've done it a million times. I'm like, oh, No, I can't believe I just said that. You know, it's special Olympics.

You know, everybody's like, yeah, I don't worry about it. Yeah.

You know, everybody's like, yeah, I don't worry about it. Yeah.

Yeah, And you know there's there's a part of us this is no, no, no, they Garrek made that terrible analogy to an octopus. He should be shown at the door and should be told and you should boycott his you know whatever, make it up. You know our athletes are not Yeah, I don't think that's going to work. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not showing anybody the door. I'm inviting him to the next race.

Yeah, And you know there's there's a part of us this is no, no, no, they Garrek made that terrible analogy to an octopus. He should be shown at the door and should be told and you should boycott his you know whatever, make it up. You know our athletes are not Yeah, I don't think that's going to work. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not showing anybody the door. I'm inviting him to the next race.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And I think you're talking about how we have a tency to call people out. I think that there's a thing that's been on my mind a lot ever since me too really got a lot of energy, but in general, and we talk about cancel culture. And I've thought about this since I was twenty five years old, and you know, starting to recover from heroin addiction is like, what does it mean to get a second chance? When do we say, hey, that person learned from that thing and they changed. They like you said, they're rehabilitated in some way. And I think that's a really tricky thing to figure out in individuals, in our own lives, but also culturally, it's very difficult to sort that out. And I think as a culture we're starting to reckon with that idea a little bit more.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And I think you're talking about how we have a tency to call people out. I think that there's a thing that's been on my mind a lot ever since me too really got a lot of energy, but in general, and we talk about cancel culture. And I've thought about this since I was twenty five years old, and you know, starting to recover from heroin addiction is like, what does it mean to get a second chance? When do we say, hey, that person learned from that thing and they changed. They like you said, they're rehabilitated in some way. And I think that's a really tricky thing to figure out in individuals, in our own lives, but also culturally, it's very difficult to sort that out. And I think as a culture we're starting to reckon with that idea a little bit more.

Yeah, I mean, I'm curious because you've went through the experiences you've gone through, and the addiction and the bottoming out, I guess is the right way to put it. But you use your own language experiences. Do you think those experiences have made you more capable of seeing through the weaknesses and others or beyond the mistakes that others make? If I made some terrible gaff on this show, are you, because of your own journey less likely? Then you might otherwise have been to say, God, that guy was a disaster, Jesus, get him away from me.

Yeah, I mean, I'm curious because you've went through the experiences you've gone through, and the addiction and the bottoming out, I guess is the right way to put it. But you use your own language experiences. Do you think those experiences have made you more capable of seeing through the weaknesses and others or beyond the mistakes that others make? If I made some terrible gaff on this show, are you, because of your own journey less likely? Then you might otherwise have been to say, God, that guy was a disaster, Jesus, get him away from me.

I think so, you know, we all have natural capacities, and I think one of my natural capacities is to try and see and understand the backstory of anyone and the belief that what people do make sense to them, So why does that make sense to them? But absolutely, if you screw up as often as I screwed up, and you know, was a homeless criminal, you know, and just an active, outright criminal to fund my habit. Yeah, I think there is a certain amount of learning to forgive yourself, which I think translates into learning to forgive others or at least understand others. So yeah, I think I don't know who I'd be if I didn't have that experience, because it's unfathomable. But yes, I think that is an element that is really important, is when we can forgive ourselves. I think there's some synergy and it goes both directions. You know, learning to be kinder to ourselves helps us be kinder to others. But I also think learning to be kinder to others can sometimes translate back to learning to be kinder to ourselves, a bi directional relationship, I think.

I think so, you know, we all have natural capacities, and I think one of my natural capacities is to try and see and understand the backstory of anyone and the belief that what people do make sense to them, So why does that make sense to them? But absolutely, if you screw up as often as I screwed up, and you know, was a homeless criminal, you know, and just an active, outright criminal to fund my habit. Yeah, I think there is a certain amount of learning to forgive yourself, which I think translates into learning to forgive others or at least understand others. So yeah, I think I don't know who I'd be if I didn't have that experience, because it's unfathomable. But yes, I think that is an element that is really important, is when we can forgive ourselves. I think there's some synergy and it goes both directions. You know, learning to be kinder to ourselves helps us be kinder to others. But I also think learning to be kinder to others can sometimes translate back to learning to be kinder to ourselves, a bi directional relationship, I think.

Yeah. One of the guests on Nita Leff just required a conversation with her yesterday, Reverend angel Kyoto Williams, you know who grew up had a dad as a firefighter, wonderful parent, but also had a caregiver who abused her as a little girl. And she was describing to me the experience of the abuser and of her dad and her dad's inability to protect her, and she described it all as sort of seeing in them a certain helplessness seeing that they were caught in a web of experiences that they themselves couldn't get out of at the time. It doesn't excuse the abuse. The abuse was destructive and painful, but she saw a little bit more of their backstory yep, than just their mistakes. Yeah, and you know, there's this tension I think, you know, whenever we talk this way, it's like, wait a second, are you saying that it's okay to abuse people and not have the met to movement? No, I'm not saying that. Are you saying it's okay to be you know, in some ways abusive of people with intellectual disabilities or race or culture or gender or whatever. No, it's not okay. But if we want to heal those wounds, if we want to stop that kind of abuse, how we go about doing it is not necessarily clear. I don't think and just saying hey, Eric, you are terrible, You are a criminal, you are a heroin auty. I mean, at the end of the day, that doesn't bring anybody to recovery.

Yeah. One of the guests on Nita Leff just required a conversation with her yesterday, Reverend angel Kyoto Williams, you know who grew up had a dad as a firefighter, wonderful parent, but also had a caregiver who abused her as a little girl. And she was describing to me the experience of the abuser and of her dad and her dad's inability to protect her, and she described it all as sort of seeing in them a certain helplessness seeing that they were caught in a web of experiences that they themselves couldn't get out of at the time. It doesn't excuse the abuse. The abuse was destructive and painful, but she saw a little bit more of their backstory yep, than just their mistakes. Yeah, and you know, there's this tension I think, you know, whenever we talk this way, it's like, wait a second, are you saying that it's okay to abuse people and not have the met to movement? No, I'm not saying that. Are you saying it's okay to be you know, in some ways abusive of people with intellectual disabilities or race or culture or gender or whatever. No, it's not okay. But if we want to heal those wounds, if we want to stop that kind of abuse, how we go about doing it is not necessarily clear. I don't think and just saying hey, Eric, you are terrible, You are a criminal, you are a heroin auty. I mean, at the end of the day, that doesn't bring anybody to recovery.

It doesn't because I think this is a very nuanced area that we don't really know how to do, because it's variable on people is this idea of when you tend to come at someone right with criticism, that person is almost always going to get defensive right and defend themselves. You see this with alcoholics and addicts all the time. If somebody is just riding them to get into recovery, they're having to justify to the other person why they do what they do, which is justifying it to themselves in some way. You leave somebody in an addiction with a little bit more space. Most of those people know there's a real problem, right, but they won't admit it to anybody else if the admittance is, you know, being attacked and shamed and all that. And yet at the same time, when you have somebody who's in active addiction like that, you don't pretend nothing's happening, you know. I talk to families a lot, and I've gone through this with people I love who've been in an addiction. What what's the right way to late to somebody who's an active addiction?

It doesn't because I think this is a very nuanced area that we don't really know how to do, because it's variable on people is this idea of when you tend to come at someone right with criticism, that person is almost always going to get defensive right and defend themselves. You see this with alcoholics and addicts all the time. If somebody is just riding them to get into recovery, they're having to justify to the other person why they do what they do, which is justifying it to themselves in some way. You leave somebody in an addiction with a little bit more space. Most of those people know there's a real problem, right, but they won't admit it to anybody else if the admittance is, you know, being attacked and shamed and all that. And yet at the same time, when you have somebody who's in active addiction like that, you don't pretend nothing's happening, you know. I talk to families a lot, and I've gone through this with people I love who've been in an addiction. What what's the right way to late to somebody who's an active addiction?

You know?

You know?

The tough Love movement I think missed a lot of things. It got some things right, but I think it missed some things.

The tough Love movement I think missed a lot of things. It got some things right, but I think it missed some things.

You know. I was talking to a friend of mine who works in the addiction space. And she put it this way, she said, you know, whether we're dealing with addiction or whether we're just dealing with our brothers and sisters, or our spouses or whatever, oppositional energy creates oppositional energy.

You know. I was talking to a friend of mine who works in the addiction space. And she put it this way, she said, you know, whether we're dealing with addiction or whether we're just dealing with our brothers and sisters, or our spouses or whatever, oppositional energy creates oppositional energy.

That's a great phrase.

That's a great phrase.

It's pretty simple. If I say to you, Eric, why the hell are you wearing your hair that way, You're likely to say, well, you know, because you and it just become indignant, you know, like it's just oppositional energy creates oppositional energy. And you know, threatening energy creates defensive energy. It's it's just almost inevitable. You treat someone with contempt, you create an almost immediate and almost impulsively irresistible desire for revenge. Yep. So you know, if you want to disintermediate the problem that's causing the addiction or the abuse of women or children or anybody else, it's unlikely to work if all we do is name and shame and humiliate the person who's Again, it's hard to say this because people that have done abusive and horrible things, you know, the impulses we got to name and shame and humiliate them because we got to get them to stop. And I get it. I'm just not sure we have a very good track record of having that work.

It's pretty simple. If I say to you, Eric, why the hell are you wearing your hair that way, You're likely to say, well, you know, because you and it just become indignant, you know, like it's just oppositional energy creates oppositional energy. And you know, threatening energy creates defensive energy. It's it's just almost inevitable. You treat someone with contempt, you create an almost immediate and almost impulsively irresistible desire for revenge. Yep. So you know, if you want to disintermediate the problem that's causing the addiction or the abuse of women or children or anybody else, it's unlikely to work if all we do is name and shame and humiliate the person who's Again, it's hard to say this because people that have done abusive and horrible things, you know, the impulses we got to name and shame and humiliate them because we got to get them to stop. And I get it. I'm just not sure we have a very good track record of having that work.

You nailed it in a phrase. We're not good culturally at how to rehabilitate people. And part of the problem is that some people just don't want to be rehabilitated. Right if the behavior continues to go on, there's no real choice.

You nailed it in a phrase. We're not good culturally at how to rehabilitate people. And part of the problem is that some people just don't want to be rehabilitated. Right if the behavior continues to go on, there's no real choice.

But yeah, you got to step in. You've got to create boundaries. You got to put people in jail if they're violent, you got to put people out of your life if they're abusive, and all those kinds of things. But you know, one guy, I was reading this quote from Pharrell Williams, and I've used it a lot to try to teach people around dignity issues. Is it goes on quite a bit at the beginning, but in the end of the quote he says, even with people I disagree, I'm wishing them the best. You know, it's okay to set a boundary to say, hey, look, Eric, you and I've been friends for twenty years, but what you've been doing in the last five years I just can't keep. I've got to create a boundary. We're not going to talk now. I'm kind of done. But to carry that boundary with a feeling that I'm hoping for the best for you on the other side of your life, of our life, of this friendship that I've ended to me. That's kind of the spiritual magic. Yeah.

But yeah, you got to step in. You've got to create boundaries. You got to put people in jail if they're violent, you got to put people out of your life if they're abusive, and all those kinds of things. But you know, one guy, I was reading this quote from Pharrell Williams, and I've used it a lot to try to teach people around dignity issues. Is it goes on quite a bit at the beginning, but in the end of the quote he says, even with people I disagree, I'm wishing them the best. You know, it's okay to set a boundary to say, hey, look, Eric, you and I've been friends for twenty years, but what you've been doing in the last five years I just can't keep. I've got to create a boundary. We're not going to talk now. I'm kind of done. But to carry that boundary with a feeling that I'm hoping for the best for you on the other side of your life, of our life, of this friendship that I've ended to me. That's kind of the spiritual magic. Yeah.

I love that. I know someone who has a very difficult family relationship, and there their mantra has sort of become innimum contact, maximum sympathy, right, Like it's beautiful, Like they've just decided that like, to be around that person is to be abused. So yeah, I need to minimize that, and yet I can try and keep my heart open to them as a person, which is really really difficult to do.

I love that. I know someone who has a very difficult family relationship, and there their mantra has sort of become innimum contact, maximum sympathy, right, Like it's beautiful, Like they've just decided that like, to be around that person is to be abused. So yeah, I need to minimize that, and yet I can try and keep my heart open to them as a person, which is really really difficult to do.

Yeah. I guess my point is, like here we are on this podcast talking about this that needs to be a national conversation. Yeah. I think like when we talk about the good wolf, you know, to the extent we want to feed the good wolf, that wolf within us needs some food around this gift, this quality. How do we set boundaries, stand up for principles, work for justice by whatever definition we are given to understand justice. How do we do all that with a lot of empathy and a lot of love yep, instead of with a lot of hatred and a lot of revenge. Vindictiveness. That's a good challenge for us. All.

Yeah. I guess my point is, like here we are on this podcast talking about this that needs to be a national conversation. Yeah. I think like when we talk about the good wolf, you know, to the extent we want to feed the good wolf, that wolf within us needs some food around this gift, this quality. How do we set boundaries, stand up for principles, work for justice by whatever definition we are given to understand justice. How do we do all that with a lot of empathy and a lot of love yep, instead of with a lot of hatred and a lot of revenge. Vindictiveness. That's a good challenge for us. All.

Yeah, I saw a clip of you talking and you said something about when you fight for your principles, add one additional principle, and that principle is while you fight for your principles, treat others with dignity. Yeah, and I love that idea, which is really good. You're part of something else called the Dignity Index. Can you share a little bit about.

Yeah, I saw a clip of you talking and you said something about when you fight for your principles, add one additional principle, and that principle is while you fight for your principles, treat others with dignity. Yeah, and I love that idea, which is really good. You're part of something else called the Dignity Index. Can you share a little bit about.

What that is? Yeah. The Dignity Index is a little tool we created. My colleagues Tom Rosshirt and Tammy Pifer created this tool that allows us to score the language we use when we characterize people with whom we disagree. So it's basically, if you and I, Eric, let's say we don't agree on pick anythought the border. You want to have open borders and I want to build a wall, so we disagree. The Dignity Index would let us score how I treat you, not how I treat the issue, how I treat you. Do I call you a name, do I consider you to be evil? Do I characterize you as inferior to me, as stupid, as uninformed, as selfish? Or do I go even farther and say your position is so dangerous that you don't actually deserve to live. You need to be that's the language of war. Or do I go up the side of dignity and do I say, you know, Eric, you've got a position. I got a position that that would be kind of an equal time we each need a chance to Or do I go to the top of the dignity scale, which is an eight, which is you and I don't agree, but I will never violate your Eric, your dignity under no circumstances, no matter how much we disagree, I will always do my best to make sure you know your dignity is intact around me so we can score you. Now, it's objective. It's not like a Trump voter scoring Kamala Harris, or a Kamala Harris voter scoring a Trump voter, or somebody trying to catch a Senator this or Minister that in a mistake. It's it's just an objective score and it's pretty reliable. It doesn't matter whether you're right or left, or you know, rich or poor, or black or white or straight or single or whatever. You can score pretty objectively. And what's been so exciting about it, Eric, is that when people learn it. You can learn it in ten minutes. It's not like complicated. It's a pretty simple scoring tool. When you learn it, you start to have what we call the mirror effect. You start to see yourself. So instead of saying, hey, look, Eric, he's done all this bad language. He's like a three on this or a two on that or six on I start to see, hey, you know what, tim is a two? Like I just use two language when I was talking about my cousin. I can do better than that, you know. And you start to realize that how you treat someone is very central to whether or not your ideas prevail, because when you treat someone with contempt, you make an enemy for your cause. So if I want to argue to you, we got to build a wall. We got to build a wall, you idiot, I've immediately made you into an enemy of the wall, right as opposed to winning you over, because I think I'm winning you over by calling you a name. But you know, all you have to do is let people stand back and watch and they go of course, that's not going to work.

What that is? Yeah. The Dignity Index is a little tool we created. My colleagues Tom Rosshirt and Tammy Pifer created this tool that allows us to score the language we use when we characterize people with whom we disagree. So it's basically, if you and I, Eric, let's say we don't agree on pick anythought the border. You want to have open borders and I want to build a wall, so we disagree. The Dignity Index would let us score how I treat you, not how I treat the issue, how I treat you. Do I call you a name, do I consider you to be evil? Do I characterize you as inferior to me, as stupid, as uninformed, as selfish? Or do I go even farther and say your position is so dangerous that you don't actually deserve to live. You need to be that's the language of war. Or do I go up the side of dignity and do I say, you know, Eric, you've got a position. I got a position that that would be kind of an equal time we each need a chance to Or do I go to the top of the dignity scale, which is an eight, which is you and I don't agree, but I will never violate your Eric, your dignity under no circumstances, no matter how much we disagree, I will always do my best to make sure you know your dignity is intact around me so we can score you. Now, it's objective. It's not like a Trump voter scoring Kamala Harris, or a Kamala Harris voter scoring a Trump voter, or somebody trying to catch a Senator this or Minister that in a mistake. It's it's just an objective score and it's pretty reliable. It doesn't matter whether you're right or left, or you know, rich or poor, or black or white or straight or single or whatever. You can score pretty objectively. And what's been so exciting about it, Eric, is that when people learn it. You can learn it in ten minutes. It's not like complicated. It's a pretty simple scoring tool. When you learn it, you start to have what we call the mirror effect. You start to see yourself. So instead of saying, hey, look, Eric, he's done all this bad language. He's like a three on this or a two on that or six on I start to see, hey, you know what, tim is a two? Like I just use two language when I was talking about my cousin. I can do better than that, you know. And you start to realize that how you treat someone is very central to whether or not your ideas prevail, because when you treat someone with contempt, you make an enemy for your cause. So if I want to argue to you, we got to build a wall. We got to build a wall, you idiot, I've immediately made you into an enemy of the wall, right as opposed to winning you over, because I think I'm winning you over by calling you a name. But you know, all you have to do is let people stand back and watch and they go of course, that's not going to work.

There's the relationship expert John Gottman, who's been around a long time and I'm familiar with his work a little bit. I don't know it a lot. Yeah, I think he had like you know, the four horsemen of like the relationship Apocalypse or something right, and one of them was certainly contempt.

There's the relationship expert John Gottman, who's been around a long time and I'm familiar with his work a little bit. I don't know it a lot. Yeah, I think he had like you know, the four horsemen of like the relationship Apocalypse or something right, and one of them was certainly contempt.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

It destroys.

It destroys.

Yeah, it's cancer to our relationship.

Yeah, it's cancer to our relationship.

It totally is.

It totally is.

And it's cancer to a culture, as it turns out, and sadly, you know, when we look at the data, we are living in a culture that normalizes treating other people with contempt when you disagree with them, instead of a culture that penalizes people for treating people with contempt when they disagree, we reward them, yes, so we create this vicious cycle of incentives to be more and more contemptuous instead of the alternate sycle. This is why I say the evil wolf or the bad wolf is overfed and the good wolf is emaciated. When I get likes and I get popular, and I get more power and attention by being contemptuous, then you've created all the wrong incentives for the good wolf.

And it's cancer to a culture, as it turns out, and sadly, you know, when we look at the data, we are living in a culture that normalizes treating other people with contempt when you disagree with them, instead of a culture that penalizes people for treating people with contempt when they disagree, we reward them, yes, so we create this vicious cycle of incentives to be more and more contemptuous instead of the alternate sycle. This is why I say the evil wolf or the bad wolf is overfed and the good wolf is emaciated. When I get likes and I get popular, and I get more power and attention by being contemptuous, then you've created all the wrong incentives for the good wolf.

It's really true, and it's really hard to resist that if you're someone who's trying to get attention in the public eye a little bit, right, Like you know, I want people to listen to the podcast. So I'm trying to get attention, and there are ways to do it that would be much more effective, knowing what we know about the algorithms. And it's a difficult temptation to resist.

It's really true, and it's really hard to resist that if you're someone who's trying to get attention in the public eye a little bit, right, Like you know, I want people to listen to the podcast. So I'm trying to get attention, and there are ways to do it that would be much more effective, knowing what we know about the algorithms. And it's a difficult temptation to resist.

It is it is, And that's why we need subcultures that create a counter incentive where and I think this is you know what you're trying to do. You're creating a listener community. I'm trying to join you at your listener community, invite you to join mine. Small cultures maybe there's five thousand, maybe there's twenty five thousand, maybe there's one hundred thousand, yep, And they create s upcultures of people who go, wait a second, that's the world I want to live. And I want to live in a world where my ideas are explored, where people I agree with or listen to, where people I disagree with or better understood, where we come to solutions that actually work, that we can implement, that we can solve our problems for ourselves and our families and our community. Like I want to live in that world. I don't want to live in that other world. So I'm going to opt for Eric's podcast as part of my community. It's not going to be the same as the one hundred million likes you'd get if you know, called someone by the most officious names possible.

It is it is, And that's why we need subcultures that create a counter incentive where and I think this is you know what you're trying to do. You're creating a listener community. I'm trying to join you at your listener community, invite you to join mine. Small cultures maybe there's five thousand, maybe there's twenty five thousand, maybe there's one hundred thousand, yep, And they create s upcultures of people who go, wait a second, that's the world I want to live. And I want to live in a world where my ideas are explored, where people I agree with or listen to, where people I disagree with or better understood, where we come to solutions that actually work, that we can implement, that we can solve our problems for ourselves and our families and our community. Like I want to live in that world. I don't want to live in that other world. So I'm going to opt for Eric's podcast as part of my community. It's not going to be the same as the one hundred million likes you'd get if you know, called someone by the most officious names possible.

Compared them to an octopus or something.

Compared them to an octopus or something.

Yeah. Now, but you know, these things change over time. Human beings, we create cultures, we change them. I think we're at a point where millions and millions of Americans want to change. They just don't know how to do it. They don't know where to look. And thank god, some of them are looking to you.

Yeah. Now, but you know, these things change over time. Human beings, we create cultures, we change them. I think we're at a point where millions and millions of Americans want to change. They just don't know how to do it. They don't know where to look. And thank god, some of them are looking to you.

Yeah, let's change direction a little bit. I want to talk about something that you explored a little bit in your memoir for listeners who don't know your background. Right, you're part of the Kennedy Shreiver family. You're part of a very well known, very successful, very ambitious family, and you talked about when you were younger the pressures you felt to actually measure up in that family. And you also talked about how to sort out your accomplishments, you know, feeling like maybe they're just because you were, you know, related to the Kennedys. Now that I think your memoir was twenty fourteen, which means you probably wrote the book in something like twenty twelve. It's twelve years later, thirteen years later, Where do you stand with that today? Talk to me about, you know, sort of how you worked through that and any evolution that's happened in you sort of sense the memoir.

Yeah, let's change direction a little bit. I want to talk about something that you explored a little bit in your memoir for listeners who don't know your background. Right, you're part of the Kennedy Shreiver family. You're part of a very well known, very successful, very ambitious family, and you talked about when you were younger the pressures you felt to actually measure up in that family. And you also talked about how to sort out your accomplishments, you know, feeling like maybe they're just because you were, you know, related to the Kennedys. Now that I think your memoir was twenty fourteen, which means you probably wrote the book in something like twenty twelve. It's twelve years later, thirteen years later, Where do you stand with that today? Talk to me about, you know, sort of how you worked through that and any evolution that's happened in you sort of sense the memoir.

Yeah, well, thanks for taking a look at it. That book, Fully Alive was my attempt to do kind of three different things. One is tell the story of the athletes of Special Olympics and the effect they've had on changing my life. The other was to tell the story of how my family, largely my mother and her siblings, contributed to creating a movement around and unlocking the gifts of people with intellectual disabilities. And the other was to tell my story. I'd say on all three fronts, I feel a good deal of I guess what I would say is I felt like I got a lot of head nodding when I talked about that book. When I talked to people about the gifts of people with intellectual disabilities and how they in effect taught me the gift of how to be free to be myself, people go, oh, oh, yeah, I've been to a specially I know what you mean. I know what you mean. What I did learn is that's not a gift you learn as an idea. That's a gift you practice as an experience. Right, So I go back. You know, our local Special Olympics Unified basketball program starts in two weeks, second week in January. I can't wait for the Saturday. It's the same way. If you know, some people look forward to going to the gym, you know, practice building up their abs or their shoulders or whatever they're building up. I look forward to going to the Special Olympics practices to building up my sense of my own freedom and my own dignity, and to learn from those athletes. I'd say it with respect to the story of my family, you know, President Kennedy, my uncles Teddy and Bobby, my mom, my grandparents. I feel proud that at least some people know that a good part of that family history is not just about political success. It's about the tenderness and heart that was infused in that family system by my aunt Rosemary. She's the missing piece in most of the stories that people tell about President Kennedy and about my uncle Bobby and my uncle ted and so on. They tell the story of big legislation and speeches and dramatic events and tragedies. But I'm glad that at least somewhere in the record Rosemary's role is remembered or at least has been shared.

Yeah, well, thanks for taking a look at it. That book, Fully Alive was my attempt to do kind of three different things. One is tell the story of the athletes of Special Olympics and the effect they've had on changing my life. The other was to tell the story of how my family, largely my mother and her siblings, contributed to creating a movement around and unlocking the gifts of people with intellectual disabilities. And the other was to tell my story. I'd say on all three fronts, I feel a good deal of I guess what I would say is I felt like I got a lot of head nodding when I talked about that book. When I talked to people about the gifts of people with intellectual disabilities and how they in effect taught me the gift of how to be free to be myself, people go, oh, oh, yeah, I've been to a specially I know what you mean. I know what you mean. What I did learn is that's not a gift you learn as an idea. That's a gift you practice as an experience. Right, So I go back. You know, our local Special Olympics Unified basketball program starts in two weeks, second week in January. I can't wait for the Saturday. It's the same way. If you know, some people look forward to going to the gym, you know, practice building up their abs or their shoulders or whatever they're building up. I look forward to going to the Special Olympics practices to building up my sense of my own freedom and my own dignity, and to learn from those athletes. I'd say it with respect to the story of my family, you know, President Kennedy, my uncles Teddy and Bobby, my mom, my grandparents. I feel proud that at least some people know that a good part of that family history is not just about political success. It's about the tenderness and heart that was infused in that family system by my aunt Rosemary. She's the missing piece in most of the stories that people tell about President Kennedy and about my uncle Bobby and my uncle ted and so on. They tell the story of big legislation and speeches and dramatic events and tragedies. But I'm glad that at least somewhere in the record Rosemary's role is remembered or at least has been shared.

I loved that part of the book because I actually do know a little bit about Rosemary, because President Kennedy was part of a big movement to sort of shut down the big institutions implement community mental health. And we could debate a long time whether that was a good move or a bad move.

I loved that part of the book because I actually do know a little bit about Rosemary, because President Kennedy was part of a big movement to sort of shut down the big institutions implement community mental health. And we could debate a long time whether that was a good move or a bad move.

It was a good move, but anyway, go ahead, Yeah, okay.

It was a good move, but anyway, go ahead, Yeah, okay.

Well, well, Lesley, Yeah, that's certainly something we could debate. I think in principle it's a good move. I think the follow up to it that was supposed to happen did not happen, which created a crisis. Anyway, my point being, I've heard about Rosemary a little bit in that context, but I loved hearing more about her. Maybe you could just share a couple minutes of her story and a little bit about your sort of thesis that the tenderness and the kindness that the Kennedys have came from interacting with her.

Well, well, Lesley, Yeah, that's certainly something we could debate. I think in principle it's a good move. I think the follow up to it that was supposed to happen did not happen, which created a crisis. Anyway, my point being, I've heard about Rosemary a little bit in that context, but I loved hearing more about her. Maybe you could just share a couple minutes of her story and a little bit about your sort of thesis that the tenderness and the kindness that the Kennedys have came from interacting with her.

Yeah, well, you've got it. I mean, my mom was one of nine children, my grandparents, my grandfather was very successful in business in the twenties and thirties and forties and up into the fifties. He's made a huge fortune by those standards. Those did not, you know, by today's standards. I suppose it's only a modest fortune. But still he made a lot of money. And he and my grandmother are well known for their three sons, Jack who became the President of the United States, and my uncle Robert Francis Kennedy became senator from New York and Attorney General, and my uncle Ted Kennedy became center from Massachusetts. That's the story. That's the narrative, rich patriarch, big Irish Catholic family, three gigantically successful boys, and then you have the tragedies of the murders and so on. What's missing in that story is the birth of Rosemary Kennedy, who, unlike all of her eight brothers and sisters, had an intellectual disability. And in nineteen twenties America, a wealthy family with a child with intellectual disability sent that child to an institution. That was the end of it. Doctors would have said, give up the child, pretend like you did nothing happen, go home. Take care of your other children. This child will be taken care of well somewhere else. Just move on, And they chose to keep her at home. So each of Rosemary's siblings, including my mom, grew up looking across the table at a sister who had no school to go to, who had no friends, who had no childcare program, who had no doctor, who had no recreation program, who had no summer camp. And my view is that my grandmother and my grandfather, in keeping her at home, taught her siblings that they had to be able to see what the world didn't see. The world saw Rosemary as a zero. They knew she was beautiful, they knew she was funny, they knew she was gifted. So they learned to see what the world couldn't see. They learned to see human dignity where the world saw human nothingness. Yeah, so they didn't talk about it a lot. But my view is that when President Kennedy gets up at his inauguration and says, you know, ask what you can do for your country, it's because he knew that when people are asked to give of themselves that they get their best selves in return.

Yeah, well, you've got it. I mean, my mom was one of nine children, my grandparents, my grandfather was very successful in business in the twenties and thirties and forties and up into the fifties. He's made a huge fortune by those standards. Those did not, you know, by today's standards. I suppose it's only a modest fortune. But still he made a lot of money. And he and my grandmother are well known for their three sons, Jack who became the President of the United States, and my uncle Robert Francis Kennedy became senator from New York and Attorney General, and my uncle Ted Kennedy became center from Massachusetts. That's the story. That's the narrative, rich patriarch, big Irish Catholic family, three gigantically successful boys, and then you have the tragedies of the murders and so on. What's missing in that story is the birth of Rosemary Kennedy, who, unlike all of her eight brothers and sisters, had an intellectual disability. And in nineteen twenties America, a wealthy family with a child with intellectual disability sent that child to an institution. That was the end of it. Doctors would have said, give up the child, pretend like you did nothing happen, go home. Take care of your other children. This child will be taken care of well somewhere else. Just move on, And they chose to keep her at home. So each of Rosemary's siblings, including my mom, grew up looking across the table at a sister who had no school to go to, who had no friends, who had no childcare program, who had no doctor, who had no recreation program, who had no summer camp. And my view is that my grandmother and my grandfather, in keeping her at home, taught her siblings that they had to be able to see what the world didn't see. The world saw Rosemary as a zero. They knew she was beautiful, they knew she was funny, they knew she was gifted. So they learned to see what the world couldn't see. They learned to see human dignity where the world saw human nothingness. Yeah, so they didn't talk about it a lot. But my view is that when President Kennedy gets up at his inauguration and says, you know, ask what you can do for your country, it's because he knew that when people are asked to give of themselves that they get their best selves in return.

He knew it, like he'd done it his whole life with his own sister.

He knew it, like he'd done it his whole life with his own sister.

Every time he was asked to take care of Rosemary, to include Rosemary, to take her with you, he knew it was to his benefit that he had this beautiful sister. So at some level, the lessons that my uncle Bobby taught that my mom, who you know, started this camp for children with special needs in her own backyard. I mean nineteen sixty two. She had like the four phone calls in the spring. You know, her brother was the president. She was working on trying to policy change. And the fourth mother called her and said, you know, missus driver, there's nowhere for me to take my child. None of the camps will take my child. And she said, yes, there is. You bring your child in my house. I damn it, you bring your child here. There is going to be a summer camp. It's going to be in my backyard. Now where does she get that resolve? That fire that you know? Where did that heartfire burn from? It burned from knowing her sister deserved those chances and didn't get them, and she wasn't. She couldn't tolerate having another mother tell her there was nothing. So I kind of feel like the hidden spiritual energy in that family. And you know, I'm not saying to lionize my mom or her brothers and sisters politically. I'm saying that, you know, a lot of people come up to me still, you know, President Kennedy's been gone sixty plus years. They still come up, Oh, I so admire your uncle. I so you know when he was president, or your uncle Bobby. He's my roma, you know. And I think what they're telling me is there was something in those boys in that generation. There was some quality in them. And when I think about what that quality was, it was Rosemary's heart beating through them.

Every time he was asked to take care of Rosemary, to include Rosemary, to take her with you, he knew it was to his benefit that he had this beautiful sister. So at some level, the lessons that my uncle Bobby taught that my mom, who you know, started this camp for children with special needs in her own backyard. I mean nineteen sixty two. She had like the four phone calls in the spring. You know, her brother was the president. She was working on trying to policy change. And the fourth mother called her and said, you know, missus driver, there's nowhere for me to take my child. None of the camps will take my child. And she said, yes, there is. You bring your child in my house. I damn it, you bring your child here. There is going to be a summer camp. It's going to be in my backyard. Now where does she get that resolve? That fire that you know? Where did that heartfire burn from? It burned from knowing her sister deserved those chances and didn't get them, and she wasn't. She couldn't tolerate having another mother tell her there was nothing. So I kind of feel like the hidden spiritual energy in that family. And you know, I'm not saying to lionize my mom or her brothers and sisters politically. I'm saying that, you know, a lot of people come up to me still, you know, President Kennedy's been gone sixty plus years. They still come up, Oh, I so admire your uncle. I so you know when he was president, or your uncle Bobby. He's my roma, you know. And I think what they're telling me is there was something in those boys in that generation. There was some quality in them. And when I think about what that quality was, it was Rosemary's heart beating through them.

It's a really beautiful idea, and it makes a lot of sense in that we are deeply shaped by the experiences that we have, and we're deeply shaped by what we're taught about how to handle those experiences. And it seems pretty clear that that generation of Kennedy's was taught to treat her with dignity, to treat her with respect. And they also, like you said, they got to see her who she was.

It's a really beautiful idea, and it makes a lot of sense in that we are deeply shaped by the experiences that we have, and we're deeply shaped by what we're taught about how to handle those experiences. And it seems pretty clear that that generation of Kennedy's was taught to treat her with dignity, to treat her with respect. And they also, like you said, they got to see her who she was.

They got to see her the world couldn't see her. So, you know, if you're a political leader and you're trying to say, hey, our country. You know, we're talking about the cycle of contempt right now. I mean I want to be able to say, hey, gang, which is what you're saying. Don't you see you've got a good wolf? Come on? I know you do. You know this because of your own life. You know, even in the depths of your own despair, there was something in you that was still there, that wanted to be healthy and strong and contributing and compassionate and good to yourself. You know it was there, right. I don't have to explain it to you. I have to read a book about it. You don't need a lesson plan to unpack it. You know it. So when you speak to an audience, or when you're speaking to your audience here on this podcast, you're telling me, I know you've got it in you. Come on, I know you've got it. Don't trust me, You've got it. And that's what I think my uncles did. They said to the country at a time, at different times when it needed to hear it. Hey, America, you can do this. We can take on civil rights. We can work to create extend healthcare. We can build a more peaceful future. We can volunteer and create connections to people all over the planet in service a piece.

They got to see her the world couldn't see her. So, you know, if you're a political leader and you're trying to say, hey, our country. You know, we're talking about the cycle of contempt right now. I mean I want to be able to say, hey, gang, which is what you're saying. Don't you see you've got a good wolf? Come on? I know you do. You know this because of your own life. You know, even in the depths of your own despair, there was something in you that was still there, that wanted to be healthy and strong and contributing and compassionate and good to yourself. You know it was there, right. I don't have to explain it to you. I have to read a book about it. You don't need a lesson plan to unpack it. You know it. So when you speak to an audience, or when you're speaking to your audience here on this podcast, you're telling me, I know you've got it in you. Come on, I know you've got it. Don't trust me, You've got it. And that's what I think my uncles did. They said to the country at a time, at different times when it needed to hear it. Hey, America, you can do this. We can take on civil rights. We can work to create extend healthcare. We can build a more peaceful future. We can volunteer and create connections to people all over the planet in service a piece.

I know we can do this.

I know we can do this.

So they knew at some level to trust their gut on these things, and not just to trust the polls, and not just to trust what people ask of their government. Most of the political rhetoric we hear nowadays is all about like, is the government delivering for people what they want? It's a very good question, and if it's not, it needs to be fixed that. There's a second question, which is our people giving to the country what they can. And that's just as important. But almost nobody asks it but my uncles and my mom and her siblings, her sisters. I think they did ask it, and I think they asked it because Rosemary told them to. Even though Rosemary never wrote a book, Rosemary never gave a speech, Rosemary never started a company, Rosemary never excelled in a test, Rosemary never won an honor ever, nothing her whole life. On that, all those measures of success she had nothing. But on the most important measure of success, did she inspire the hearts of people that she touched? I think she gets an A plus plus.