So many of us don't live life. Life lives us, and I think it's up to us to really live consciously. This is why mindfulness is so important.

So many of us don't live life. Life lives us, and I think it's up to us to really live consciously. This is why mindfulness is so important.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Richard Williams, better known by the stage name Prince Ea. He's an American spoken word artist, poet, rapper, filmmaker, and speaker. After graduating magna cum laude from the University of Missouri Saint Louis with a full scholarship and degree in anthropology. He started and popularized the Make Smart Cool movement to promote values like intelligence, free thought, unity and creativity, and hip hop music and culture. In twenty fourteen, Prince Ea shifted his focus from music to creating motivational and inspirational spoken word films and content, and his YouTube videos have received over three billion views and he discovers a wide range of topics such as environmentalism, race, work, life balance, and spirituality. Princeya's work is widely recognized, including Oprah's Super Soul one hundred and Forbes thirty Under thirty.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Richard Williams, better known by the stage name Prince Ea. He's an American spoken word artist, poet, rapper, filmmaker, and speaker. After graduating magna cum laude from the University of Missouri Saint Louis with a full scholarship and degree in anthropology. He started and popularized the Make Smart Cool movement to promote values like intelligence, free thought, unity and creativity, and hip hop music and culture. In twenty fourteen, Prince Ea shifted his focus from music to creating motivational and inspirational spoken word films and content, and his YouTube videos have received over three billion views and he discovers a wide range of topics such as environmentalism, race, work, life balance, and spirituality. Princeya's work is widely recognized, including Oprah's Super Soul one hundred and Forbes thirty Under thirty.

Hi, Prince Welcome to the show.

Hi, Prince Welcome to the show.

Eric. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Eric. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Yeah, I am really excited to talk with you. You talk about a lot of the same things that we talk about on this show in your videos and your courses, and so I think we're going to have a lot in common here. But before we get to all that, we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second and they look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I am really excited to talk with you. You talk about a lot of the same things that we talk about on this show in your videos and your courses, and so I think we're going to have a lot in common here. But before we get to all that, we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second and they look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Wow, thank you for sharing that funny. I wanted to film a video on that a long time ago, and I still might because it's such a powerful, potent story. It's a parable, right, It's hundreds of years old, so it's time tested. And what does it mean to me? It means that we have a choice. I have a choice, and I think it comes down to the two wolves, which for me, it's either fear or it's love. I think these are the two forces that play in our dimension in which we inhabit on this planet. And I think at every moment, we have that choice to choose either fear limitation anger this very negative vibration I would call it, or we could choose love, which is more open, which is more compassionate. And I think the more that you feed one of them, the more that will grow, right, And it was ticked out hand who say He says nothing can grow without food, not the anger, not the hatred, and also not the joy and not the happiness. So that's what it means to me. It's a very powerful, powerful metaphor for life. And it really comes down in each moment, which are we feeding in each moment, each decision, because that's what our lives are, right, It's an accumulation of the small moments. There's a movie I love. It's Vanilla Sky. I don't know if you remember that film with Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz. It's a beautiful film, one of my favorites. Haven't seen it in years, but I always remember this quote in the movie. He says, oh, the little things, there's nothing bigger. So it's the little choices. Are we gonna choose fear? Are we gonna choose love? Yeah?

Wow, thank you for sharing that funny. I wanted to film a video on that a long time ago, and I still might because it's such a powerful, potent story. It's a parable, right, It's hundreds of years old, so it's time tested. And what does it mean to me? It means that we have a choice. I have a choice, and I think it comes down to the two wolves, which for me, it's either fear or it's love. I think these are the two forces that play in our dimension in which we inhabit on this planet. And I think at every moment, we have that choice to choose either fear limitation anger this very negative vibration I would call it, or we could choose love, which is more open, which is more compassionate. And I think the more that you feed one of them, the more that will grow, right, And it was ticked out hand who say He says nothing can grow without food, not the anger, not the hatred, and also not the joy and not the happiness. So that's what it means to me. It's a very powerful, powerful metaphor for life. And it really comes down in each moment, which are we feeding in each moment, each decision, because that's what our lives are, right, It's an accumulation of the small moments. There's a movie I love. It's Vanilla Sky. I don't know if you remember that film with Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz. It's a beautiful film, one of my favorites. Haven't seen it in years, but I always remember this quote in the movie. He says, oh, the little things, there's nothing bigger. So it's the little choices. Are we gonna choose fear? Are we gonna choose love? Yeah?

And I think what's interesting about what you just said about little choices is that it's the little choices, and it seems like the choices are inconsequential. They're so little, right, and there's so many little moments of them, and they feel like, well, there's not really a good or bad here. There's not a love or fear here. This is just I'm making my coffee. I mean, I'm gonna do the next thing. But it really is, as you're saying, the more intentionality we can bring to our choices. I was reading something I always forget where I get what I get from my guests, But it was something you had said about some scientists believe make thirty five thousand choices a day, and you said, I don't believe that to be true because so many of those choices are happening automatically.

And I think what's interesting about what you just said about little choices is that it's the little choices, and it seems like the choices are inconsequential. They're so little, right, and there's so many little moments of them, and they feel like, well, there's not really a good or bad here. There's not a love or fear here. This is just I'm making my coffee. I mean, I'm gonna do the next thing. But it really is, as you're saying, the more intentionality we can bring to our choices. I was reading something I always forget where I get what I get from my guests, But it was something you had said about some scientists believe make thirty five thousand choices a day, and you said, I don't believe that to be true because so many of those choices are happening automatically.

Right.

Right.

We're not conscious of the choice. We're not conscious of which wolf might be getting fed. You know, it's just the default, autopilot. And again, some of that's a human advantage.

We're not conscious of the choice. We're not conscious of which wolf might be getting fed. You know, it's just the default, autopilot. And again, some of that's a human advantage.

Right.

Right.

I can't make every choice. I can't be deliberately moving my hand right now, right, it's just kind of it's doing its thing. But the more of them that are deliberative, you know.

I can't make every choice. I can't be deliberately moving my hand right now, right, it's just kind of it's doing its thing. But the more of them that are deliberative, you know.

One hundred percent it's habits. You know, I think we all know. James Clear Atomic habits, right, and one of the most powerful books written in the last freaking decade. It's all about cultivating those habits because you know, they say the first part of our lives, we make our habits. In the last part, our habits make us. I think that's so true, and it's so important for us to get in front of these habits while we still got a chance, because we really don't want to be a victim of life. So many of us don't live life. Life lives us, and I think it's up to us to really live consciously. This is why mindfulness is so important. To be mindful as you're pouring the coffee and you're not just thinking about, Okay, what do I have to do at work? I'll tell you a parable which you may have already heard, but there was a story of the Buddha. He met a very very impatient disciple. And the disciple he said, Buddha, Buddha, can you enlighten me right now? And the Buddha says, I can't enlighten you right now. It takes time. You have to cultivate these practices. He says, please, please, this is just enlighten me, just just you know, got I got a plane to catch. I gotta get out of here, please please. And the Buddha he said, okay, here's what you do when you eat, eat when you walk walk, and it really is just that simple to do what you're doing when right, to really be in it. Right, you're not thinking about what's going to happen two years from now or two minutes. You're really in the moment. And this is what all the sages, all the gurus talk about. Yeah, the power of the now. Yep.

One hundred percent it's habits. You know, I think we all know. James Clear Atomic habits, right, and one of the most powerful books written in the last freaking decade. It's all about cultivating those habits because you know, they say the first part of our lives, we make our habits. In the last part, our habits make us. I think that's so true, and it's so important for us to get in front of these habits while we still got a chance, because we really don't want to be a victim of life. So many of us don't live life. Life lives us, and I think it's up to us to really live consciously. This is why mindfulness is so important. To be mindful as you're pouring the coffee and you're not just thinking about, Okay, what do I have to do at work? I'll tell you a parable which you may have already heard, but there was a story of the Buddha. He met a very very impatient disciple. And the disciple he said, Buddha, Buddha, can you enlighten me right now? And the Buddha says, I can't enlighten you right now. It takes time. You have to cultivate these practices. He says, please, please, this is just enlighten me, just just you know, got I got a plane to catch. I gotta get out of here, please please. And the Buddha he said, okay, here's what you do when you eat, eat when you walk walk, and it really is just that simple to do what you're doing when right, to really be in it. Right, you're not thinking about what's going to happen two years from now or two minutes. You're really in the moment. And this is what all the sages, all the gurus talk about. Yeah, the power of the now. Yep.

It's funny. You and I were talking beforehand about my newly discovered love of surfing, and that's really it, right, is that when I am surfing, there is nothing else, you know, That's it. It is that moment entirely, all my attention, all my focus, it's just all right there. And that's probably the key to it, is it does that better for me easier? Right, that that state is easier for me to achieve on a surfboard for some reason than it is other times. But it's always worth striving for. Mmm.

It's funny. You and I were talking beforehand about my newly discovered love of surfing, and that's really it, right, is that when I am surfing, there is nothing else, you know, That's it. It is that moment entirely, all my attention, all my focus, it's just all right there. And that's probably the key to it, is it does that better for me easier? Right, that that state is easier for me to achieve on a surfboard for some reason than it is other times. But it's always worth striving for. Mmm.

Yeah, I mean we're talking about flow, we're talking about being in the zone, We're talking about being in the now. I think it's the Japanese they called it motion, the Taoist they call it the dow right. That eternal nowness is what we're all looking for. And the funny thing is you're never not in it. It's just the mind that tries to go to the future or go back to the past and rehash that and this. The breath is a good doorway to the moment, to the now. You know, the breath is always there, and if we can just come back to the breath, that will bring us to that place of beauty, you know what we're all searching for. They say, the true tragedy in life is not how much we suffer. The true tragedy is how much we miss, how much of the beauty that we just walk past or run past, not even aware of what's happening. So to cultivate mindfulness, I think it's the number one most important thing to really live a happy, fulfilled life.

Yeah, I mean we're talking about flow, we're talking about being in the zone, We're talking about being in the now. I think it's the Japanese they called it motion, the Taoist they call it the dow right. That eternal nowness is what we're all looking for. And the funny thing is you're never not in it. It's just the mind that tries to go to the future or go back to the past and rehash that and this. The breath is a good doorway to the moment, to the now. You know, the breath is always there, and if we can just come back to the breath, that will bring us to that place of beauty, you know what we're all searching for. They say, the true tragedy in life is not how much we suffer. The true tragedy is how much we miss, how much of the beauty that we just walk past or run past, not even aware of what's happening. So to cultivate mindfulness, I think it's the number one most important thing to really live a happy, fulfilled life.

I've heard you say that you don't love that phrase, who wants a full mind? Yeah, and it is a phrase that has gotten way over you used. But it doesn't change the simple fact that being aware of what's going on in our mind and around us is kind of the whole game.

I've heard you say that you don't love that phrase, who wants a full mind? Yeah, and it is a phrase that has gotten way over you used. But it doesn't change the simple fact that being aware of what's going on in our mind and around us is kind of the whole game.

Yeah that's the cheat code.

Yeah that's the cheat code.

Yeah, Yeah, that's the.

Yeah, Yeah, that's the.

Cheat code to beat the game. Yeah, that's that's it. Yeah, I don't like that. I like you. You did, you did your homework. Yeah, mindfulness is you know, language, language is power. It depends on how I'm feeling, I guess, you know, But mindfulness sometimes I use awareness or mindful awareness, presence awareness. All of these are words that really point to the same thing, which is just coming back to the witness. Just witness. Don't get involved in the thoughts, don't get it, just just witness. Just watch. There's a guy, Anthony de Mello. He said, don't try to change your life, just just watch it and then it'll change. Then it will change.

Cheat code to beat the game. Yeah, that's that's it. Yeah, I don't like that. I like you. You did, you did your homework. Yeah, mindfulness is you know, language, language is power. It depends on how I'm feeling, I guess, you know, But mindfulness sometimes I use awareness or mindful awareness, presence awareness. All of these are words that really point to the same thing, which is just coming back to the witness. Just witness. Don't get involved in the thoughts, don't get it, just just witness. Just watch. There's a guy, Anthony de Mello. He said, don't try to change your life, just just watch it and then it'll change. Then it will change.

He is a great seer and his writing is very confrontational too. It is no no bs, like, he's not soft footing around any of it.

He is a great seer and his writing is very confrontational too. It is no no bs, like, he's not soft footing around any of it.

You know.

You know.

It caught me off guard first reading. I was a little bit like, whoa, hang on, buddy, take it down a notch. But he's speaking the truth, you know, Yeah, speaking the truth.

It caught me off guard first reading. I was a little bit like, whoa, hang on, buddy, take it down a notch. But he's speaking the truth, you know, Yeah, speaking the truth.

I think the truth sometimes has to be told in a way that shakes you up.

I think the truth sometimes has to be told in a way that shakes you up.

Yeah, for sure, you.

Yeah, for sure, you.

Know, because we don't change when we're comfortable. That's a message for me. I think that's definitely part and parcel of my success, and it's something that I have to also remember that it really is about the package it's about the package. It's not just about the message, but it's about the packaging. Right, Like if you go to a restaurant, it's a five star Michelin restaurant, and the waiter brings out the food and they bring it out on a paper plate and give you some plastic utensils, the packaging isn't right. So it's really it's the same thing. The one you feed, how you serve the food has to be packaged in a way that I think really does justice to it. And I think what you're saying is Anthony de Mello. He was very, very forthcoming, very to the point, very poignant. Yeah, in the way that he communicated, and I love it. And I think the most powerful people Martin Luther King. I mean he man that guy he was cutting, he was cutting, he cut through.

Know, because we don't change when we're comfortable. That's a message for me. I think that's definitely part and parcel of my success, and it's something that I have to also remember that it really is about the package it's about the package. It's not just about the message, but it's about the packaging. Right, Like if you go to a restaurant, it's a five star Michelin restaurant, and the waiter brings out the food and they bring it out on a paper plate and give you some plastic utensils, the packaging isn't right. So it's really it's the same thing. The one you feed, how you serve the food has to be packaged in a way that I think really does justice to it. And I think what you're saying is Anthony de Mello. He was very, very forthcoming, very to the point, very poignant. Yeah, in the way that he communicated, and I love it. And I think the most powerful people Martin Luther King. I mean he man that guy he was cutting, he was cutting, he cut through.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Behind me there's a statue of a Bodhi Satfa called Manjuicry. And one of the reasons I love Manjuicery is he's, you know, got one hand on like a lotus, right, but the other one is holding a flaming sword, and that flaming sword's job is to cut through ignorance. And that's kind of what we're saying here is sometimes that's the cutting that needs to occur.

Behind me there's a statue of a Bodhi Satfa called Manjuicry. And one of the reasons I love Manjuicery is he's, you know, got one hand on like a lotus, right, but the other one is holding a flaming sword, and that flaming sword's job is to cut through ignorance. And that's kind of what we're saying here is sometimes that's the cutting that needs to occur.

That's beautiful. You gotta send me a picture of that after we finished. I love that. I've never heard of him.

That's beautiful. You gotta send me a picture of that after we finished. I love that. I've never heard of him.

Yeah, he's a Bodhisatfa in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. So changing gears. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about you and your challenges depression. You made a video with a I don't know what the group was. It's a group that supports mental ill this recovery. Is it called Impact maybe. Yeah, it's quite a video of you've got depression as a person sitting in a crime room.

Yeah, he's a Bodhisatfa in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. So changing gears. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about you and your challenges depression. You made a video with a I don't know what the group was. It's a group that supports mental ill this recovery. Is it called Impact maybe. Yeah, it's quite a video of you've got depression as a person sitting in a crime room.

Right.

Right.

I was really moved by it. But talk to me about, you know, when you had depression and what.

I was really moved by it. But talk to me about, you know, when you had depression and what.

Was it like. Yeah, well, you know, I grew up on the north side of Saint Louis, and you know, my family we're very like, I don't know, traditional in the sense of most people where I'm from. We don't really go to therapists. So I say that to say I was never clinically diagnosed. I never got on medication or anything like that. I didn't go to church or I know a lot of people are like you know, just pray it away, or you know, Jesus will take the will and make it go away. I think there's an element of spirituality that can indeed help depressive states. Yep. But I also think there's a science, and I think we need to kind of look to the science. I love the Dolly Loma. I know he's in some hot water these days. He always says, Hey, if science did disagrees with Buddhism, we might have to rethink Buddhist teachings. And I love that. I say that to say it wasn't never clinically depressed, but I looked at all the symptoms and I definitely experienced depression throughout my adolescence. And also I do feel as though just my own awareness that my brain that I have could be biochemically I believe that it may lean naturally towards that state because I know that if I don't ingest certain minerals, supplements, do certain things, it just kind of goes that way. It can still be here. But I've also trained it through different therapies CBTRBT Buddhist tradition is also a good fortification of the mind and to not believe in the thinking mind. Stoicism. I can kind of rally off all the names of the things that I've studied to help me. But it all started I think, Like I said, my adolescence definitely experience, you know, some suicidal thoughts. They weren't like every day, but there were some points where I woke up and I just didn't want to be here, didn't care about my parents, didn't care about friends, just didn't want to go outside. Right, These are kind of classic depressive symptoms. And then I just started looking into it. I just started trying to understand it, and came across a book from David Burns called Feeling Good. The New Mood Therapy, came across books like the Dowd Chain, came across traditions like Advita Vedanta. Say that you were not these thoughts. You were not the thinking mind. Thoughts come and go like clouds in the sky. Watch your thoughts like you're crossing the street and you watch traffic. So these different things. What they did was they gave me distance. They gave me distance from the thoughts. I wasn't the thought itself, I wasn't tied up in it. I could actually observe it. I could watch it, I could be mindful of it and just that awareness. This was a huge relief, a huge relief. But I think the depression was also a bit of a gift because it allowed me to look within and find out what was going on under the hood. You know, what kind of nutrient therapies amino acids could I play with to change the hormonal balance in my brain. So I always tell people that think that they are depressed, I say, you are not depressed. You are experiencing depression. Who you are is not depressed. Who you are can observe that depression, and it's difficult to understand that when you're in it. Learn helplessness is a huge thing. But I love the work of He was a scientist and he created something called learned optimism. And I think we can retrain our brains, as we were talking about earlier, to see the good, to see the positive, to just shift our perceptions. There are so many tools that I always tell people it's not hopeless. It's not a hopeless situation that you're in. In fact, you should be very hopeful because there are so many tools out there in all modern world today that you just have to find it. You have to find the right one that works for you. So, you know, going back to my story, I think depression played a role if it forced me to try to understand it, and I think at one level it also allowed me to bring out the creativity inside of me, to bring out the vulnerability inside of me. You know, I started out as a musician, and you know, a musician is like a poet, is a very vulnerable art form. And so I was very vulnerable and very vocal about what I was going through. And you know, when I would create music, I would find my audience they would say, Oh, I feel the exact same way, Thank you for putting that out there. And then that's how you build community, That's how you build friendships, That's how you build connection. Connection came from the expression which some say is the opposite of depression. Depression. While you know, I think it is a virus, I think that it can also be an opportunity, tunity, a signal, an alarm that something's off. You may not be living the life that you're meant to live.

Was it like. Yeah, well, you know, I grew up on the north side of Saint Louis, and you know, my family we're very like, I don't know, traditional in the sense of most people where I'm from. We don't really go to therapists. So I say that to say I was never clinically diagnosed. I never got on medication or anything like that. I didn't go to church or I know a lot of people are like you know, just pray it away, or you know, Jesus will take the will and make it go away. I think there's an element of spirituality that can indeed help depressive states. Yep. But I also think there's a science, and I think we need to kind of look to the science. I love the Dolly Loma. I know he's in some hot water these days. He always says, Hey, if science did disagrees with Buddhism, we might have to rethink Buddhist teachings. And I love that. I say that to say it wasn't never clinically depressed, but I looked at all the symptoms and I definitely experienced depression throughout my adolescence. And also I do feel as though just my own awareness that my brain that I have could be biochemically I believe that it may lean naturally towards that state because I know that if I don't ingest certain minerals, supplements, do certain things, it just kind of goes that way. It can still be here. But I've also trained it through different therapies CBTRBT Buddhist tradition is also a good fortification of the mind and to not believe in the thinking mind. Stoicism. I can kind of rally off all the names of the things that I've studied to help me. But it all started I think, Like I said, my adolescence definitely experience, you know, some suicidal thoughts. They weren't like every day, but there were some points where I woke up and I just didn't want to be here, didn't care about my parents, didn't care about friends, just didn't want to go outside. Right, These are kind of classic depressive symptoms. And then I just started looking into it. I just started trying to understand it, and came across a book from David Burns called Feeling Good. The New Mood Therapy, came across books like the Dowd Chain, came across traditions like Advita Vedanta. Say that you were not these thoughts. You were not the thinking mind. Thoughts come and go like clouds in the sky. Watch your thoughts like you're crossing the street and you watch traffic. So these different things. What they did was they gave me distance. They gave me distance from the thoughts. I wasn't the thought itself, I wasn't tied up in it. I could actually observe it. I could watch it, I could be mindful of it and just that awareness. This was a huge relief, a huge relief. But I think the depression was also a bit of a gift because it allowed me to look within and find out what was going on under the hood. You know, what kind of nutrient therapies amino acids could I play with to change the hormonal balance in my brain. So I always tell people that think that they are depressed, I say, you are not depressed. You are experiencing depression. Who you are is not depressed. Who you are can observe that depression, and it's difficult to understand that when you're in it. Learn helplessness is a huge thing. But I love the work of He was a scientist and he created something called learned optimism. And I think we can retrain our brains, as we were talking about earlier, to see the good, to see the positive, to just shift our perceptions. There are so many tools that I always tell people it's not hopeless. It's not a hopeless situation that you're in. In fact, you should be very hopeful because there are so many tools out there in all modern world today that you just have to find it. You have to find the right one that works for you. So, you know, going back to my story, I think depression played a role if it forced me to try to understand it, and I think at one level it also allowed me to bring out the creativity inside of me, to bring out the vulnerability inside of me. You know, I started out as a musician, and you know, a musician is like a poet, is a very vulnerable art form. And so I was very vulnerable and very vocal about what I was going through. And you know, when I would create music, I would find my audience they would say, Oh, I feel the exact same way, Thank you for putting that out there. And then that's how you build community, That's how you build friendships, That's how you build connection. Connection came from the expression which some say is the opposite of depression. Depression. While you know, I think it is a virus, I think that it can also be an opportunity, tunity, a signal, an alarm that something's off. You may not be living the life that you're meant to live.

Yeah, I'm very similar to you. I think I have a brain that orients towards that direction. When I let it off its leash, you know, and I, like you, have found that there's a lot of different things that contribute to managing it. There's a lot of different tools, and I've had to over the years kind of put together my little depression recovery kit. You know, mine's going to look different than other people's, but knowing what's in that kit becomes very important. And as you were talking about the thoughts, I was thinking a little bit about you know, part of the problem with depression is that when I'm in it, when I'm experiencing it, I like your phrase, when I'm experiencing it right, I can know that my thoughts are not correct. I can be like, look, you know, your brain's not working real well today, and you know, ignore those thoughts, and underneath it there's still this like ugh feelane, you know. And I've talked on this show many times about some times I treat it a little bit like the I call it the emotional flu, you know, which is that when it comes, I treat it a little bit like I would the flu, meaning I don't make a big fuss out of it. I don't take myself to the emergency room. I make sure am I doing everything I can to support myself. I know that while I'm sick, the world's going to look kind of crappy, you know, I let it kind of roll. Now that's again after having dealt with it head on. So I'm not saying that's always the case, but for me becoming aware of the fact that, like there's some degree of this low mood that feels like it's a companion of mine that doesn't seem like it's going to completely go away. So how do I work with it as skillfully as I can? And to your point, you know, what opportunities does it present? You know, I wouldn't be doing the work I do, like you if I hadn't had it. You know, I wouldn't be doing the work I do if I hadn't been a heroin addict. I mean, all these things contribute to our lives being meaningful. They're part of our story.

Yeah, I'm very similar to you. I think I have a brain that orients towards that direction. When I let it off its leash, you know, and I, like you, have found that there's a lot of different things that contribute to managing it. There's a lot of different tools, and I've had to over the years kind of put together my little depression recovery kit. You know, mine's going to look different than other people's, but knowing what's in that kit becomes very important. And as you were talking about the thoughts, I was thinking a little bit about you know, part of the problem with depression is that when I'm in it, when I'm experiencing it, I like your phrase, when I'm experiencing it right, I can know that my thoughts are not correct. I can be like, look, you know, your brain's not working real well today, and you know, ignore those thoughts, and underneath it there's still this like ugh feelane, you know. And I've talked on this show many times about some times I treat it a little bit like the I call it the emotional flu, you know, which is that when it comes, I treat it a little bit like I would the flu, meaning I don't make a big fuss out of it. I don't take myself to the emergency room. I make sure am I doing everything I can to support myself. I know that while I'm sick, the world's going to look kind of crappy, you know, I let it kind of roll. Now that's again after having dealt with it head on. So I'm not saying that's always the case, but for me becoming aware of the fact that, like there's some degree of this low mood that feels like it's a companion of mine that doesn't seem like it's going to completely go away. So how do I work with it as skillfully as I can? And to your point, you know, what opportunities does it present? You know, I wouldn't be doing the work I do, like you if I hadn't had it. You know, I wouldn't be doing the work I do if I hadn't been a heroin addict. I mean, all these things contribute to our lives being meaningful. They're part of our story.

That's it. I love the analogy of the puzzle pieces putting, and everybody has their own puzzle that they have to put together, right, Like I think social support for just the human species is it works right, So that's a big one. The thing about depression is like when you're in it, that's the last thing you want is to be around people. Yeah, the very thing that can allow you to come out of it is the thing that you're like pushing away, which is another trick totally.

That's it. I love the analogy of the puzzle pieces putting, and everybody has their own puzzle that they have to put together, right, Like I think social support for just the human species is it works right, So that's a big one. The thing about depression is like when you're in it, that's the last thing you want is to be around people. Yeah, the very thing that can allow you to come out of it is the thing that you're like pushing away, which is another trick totally.

Even things like movement, right, Like, we know movement helps, but the last thing you want to do is move when you're feeling depressed exactly. It is challenging in that way. How do you work through that?

Even things like movement, right, Like, we know movement helps, but the last thing you want to do is move when you're feeling depressed exactly. It is challenging in that way. How do you work through that?

Well, you know, I haven't had the need to work through it lately, but in the past. Well, just that book, right, So, that book by David Burns is so powerful, right, you know the book, right, I do. So this book actually created a practice of its own called bibliotherapy. People got better just by reading the book. It's got so many tools in it. I think if you read the book, or if you study CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy or is I like to call it crushing bad thoughts, you will find a list of ten cognitive distortions. Print this list out, put it on your refrigerator, put it anywhere that you can see it. Because I feel like, whenever we suffer ninety nine percent of the times, it is because of one of these ten cognitive distortions. Period. But when you see it you can see, Oh there it is. My brain's just trying to trick me again, right, so you observe it. Yes, depression is something you really can't think your way out of it. You can't intellectualize your way out of it. This is why I think behavioral activation is one of the more successful treatments for depression. Moving, like you say, you don't want to move. So this is why having that good social support, that network is so so important. That's the biggest thing. I mean, this is the reason why I like to study cultures. You know, I've got my degree in anthropology, and I love Dan Buttner's work on the Blue zones where you have people rights people who are you know, centenarians. They live well past one hundred years old, and they're healthy, theyre happy, they're vibrant, they're still having sex, they're still you know, watering their gardens, they're still playing with their great great grandkids, they're still riding the bike. And you know, this is baffled a lot of scientists for years, and they really finally figured out why they lived so long. And it's because of their friendships. It's because of the love that they have around, right. They a lot of them have the same friends that they have when they were kids, when they were ten now and they're one hundred and ten, they have the same people around them. So the human animal, I think we do need each other, and when we get in these low mood states, we have to trust the people around us. Yeah.

Well, you know, I haven't had the need to work through it lately, but in the past. Well, just that book, right, So, that book by David Burns is so powerful, right, you know the book, right, I do. So this book actually created a practice of its own called bibliotherapy. People got better just by reading the book. It's got so many tools in it. I think if you read the book, or if you study CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy or is I like to call it crushing bad thoughts, you will find a list of ten cognitive distortions. Print this list out, put it on your refrigerator, put it anywhere that you can see it. Because I feel like, whenever we suffer ninety nine percent of the times, it is because of one of these ten cognitive distortions. Period. But when you see it you can see, Oh there it is. My brain's just trying to trick me again, right, so you observe it. Yes, depression is something you really can't think your way out of it. You can't intellectualize your way out of it. This is why I think behavioral activation is one of the more successful treatments for depression. Moving, like you say, you don't want to move. So this is why having that good social support, that network is so so important. That's the biggest thing. I mean, this is the reason why I like to study cultures. You know, I've got my degree in anthropology, and I love Dan Buttner's work on the Blue zones where you have people rights people who are you know, centenarians. They live well past one hundred years old, and they're healthy, theyre happy, they're vibrant, they're still having sex, they're still you know, watering their gardens, they're still playing with their great great grandkids, they're still riding the bike. And you know, this is baffled a lot of scientists for years, and they really finally figured out why they lived so long. And it's because of their friendships. It's because of the love that they have around, right. They a lot of them have the same friends that they have when they were kids, when they were ten now and they're one hundred and ten, they have the same people around them. So the human animal, I think we do need each other, and when we get in these low mood states, we have to trust the people around us. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's really true and really important, and those other people can be the things that do help us do some of the things that we need to do, you know, that are good for us. But one of my favorite quotes is depression hates a moving target, right, So for me, that's kind of it. It's like, just get off the couch, doesn't even matter what, just be moving, you know, And how much I'm able to do may vary. I may be like, well, you know, today I'm not going to get on the peloton bike and do a crushing hour ride, but I might walk, you know, around the block.

Yeah, I think that's really true and really important, and those other people can be the things that do help us do some of the things that we need to do, you know, that are good for us. But one of my favorite quotes is depression hates a moving target, right, So for me, that's kind of it. It's like, just get off the couch, doesn't even matter what, just be moving, you know, And how much I'm able to do may vary. I may be like, well, you know, today I'm not going to get on the peloton bike and do a crushing hour ride, but I might walk, you know, around the block.

Yeah, here's something else you don't even have to move, but it simulates moving. But a sauna, a sauna or a ice bath, both of those things. I mean, you can just sit there, right and you are making physiological changes in your body. You are helping your nervous system, You're fighting depression. When you just sit there so you can sweat it out and you can shiver it.

Yeah, here's something else you don't even have to move, but it simulates moving. But a sauna, a sauna or a ice bath, both of those things. I mean, you can just sit there, right and you are making physiological changes in your body. You are helping your nervous system, You're fighting depression. When you just sit there so you can sweat it out and you can shiver it.

Out too, or you can do both. That's my favorite back and forth back and for Okay, yeah, but you brought up sauna. So you've got a fairly new podcast that you do in a sauna. You basically have people come join you in the sauna. Why'd you choose to do a podcast in the sauna?

Out too, or you can do both. That's my favorite back and forth back and for Okay, yeah, but you brought up sauna. So you've got a fairly new podcast that you do in a sauna. You basically have people come join you in the sauna. Why'd you choose to do a podcast in the sauna?

You know? I just like doing stuff that's never been done. Yeah, I am one who takes the road less traveled or not even paved, I should say, so I wanted to do something different. And also I've had a lot of good conversations inside of sauna's, you know, at the gym, at the club, you know, So it's like, what about having conversations with celebrity scientists, cool people just inside of a sauna as we as we sweat out the toxins and the bs. Well, what's what can happen? So we landed on a sauna. We tried to figure out how to get the equipment inside the sauna without melting. We figured it out and.

You know? I just like doing stuff that's never been done. Yeah, I am one who takes the road less traveled or not even paved, I should say, so I wanted to do something different. And also I've had a lot of good conversations inside of sauna's, you know, at the gym, at the club, you know, So it's like, what about having conversations with celebrity scientists, cool people just inside of a sauna as we as we sweat out the toxins and the bs. Well, what's what can happen? So we landed on a sauna. We tried to figure out how to get the equipment inside the sauna without melting. We figured it out and.

It sounds really good. I was like, I can't believe how good this sounds for being in a sauna.

It sounds really good. I was like, I can't believe how good this sounds for being in a sauna.

Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's that's my producer, Dustin. He works magic. But we got it. It's an infrared sauna. It's not a dry sauna, so it doesn't get that hot. But so we do twenty men us in the sauna, and then we do another twenty minutes outside the sauna for like what we call a hydration session where we sit, we get like a foot bath with Epsen Saw, we drink coconut water, and we continue the conversation in our bathrobes.

Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's that's my producer, Dustin. He works magic. But we got it. It's an infrared sauna. It's not a dry sauna, so it doesn't get that hot. But so we do twenty men us in the sauna, and then we do another twenty minutes outside the sauna for like what we call a hydration session where we sit, we get like a foot bath with Epsen Saw, we drink coconut water, and we continue the conversation in our bathrobes.

Sounds like a good podcast, gig.

Sounds like a good podcast, gig.

I haven't had any complaints. Yes, they love it. Come by, we can get.

I haven't had any complaints. Yes, they love it. Come by, we can get.

In all right, I will take you up on that.

In all right, I will take you up on that.

Awesome.

Awesome.

We've given our Instagram account a new look, and we're sharing content there that we don't share anywhere else, encouraging positive posts with wisdom that support you and feeding your good wolf, as well as in behind the scenes video of the show and so of Giny andized day to day life, which I'm kind of still amazed that anybody would be interested in. It's also a great place for you to give us feedback on the episodes that you like or concepts that you've learned that you think are helpful, or any other feedback you'd like to give us. If you're on Instagram, follow us it at one underscore you underscore feed and those words are all spelled out. One underscore You underscore feed to add some nourishing content to your daily scrolling. See you there. So I want to talk a little bit about meditation. It's a big thing in your life, a practice you were really into, and I wanted to just sort of start and ask you a little bit about what is the type of meditation you're doing these days? How has that changed over time, how does it vary week to week, month to month. I'm just kind of curious how you approach that big topic.

We've given our Instagram account a new look, and we're sharing content there that we don't share anywhere else, encouraging positive posts with wisdom that support you and feeding your good wolf, as well as in behind the scenes video of the show and so of Giny andized day to day life, which I'm kind of still amazed that anybody would be interested in. It's also a great place for you to give us feedback on the episodes that you like or concepts that you've learned that you think are helpful, or any other feedback you'd like to give us. If you're on Instagram, follow us it at one underscore you underscore feed and those words are all spelled out. One underscore You underscore feed to add some nourishing content to your daily scrolling. See you there. So I want to talk a little bit about meditation. It's a big thing in your life, a practice you were really into, and I wanted to just sort of start and ask you a little bit about what is the type of meditation you're doing these days? How has that changed over time, how does it vary week to week, month to month. I'm just kind of curious how you approach that big topic.

First of all, I want to say I love your questions, I love your vibe. I'm so excited to talk about these questions because they're super important. I don't think there's anything more important than the topic of meditation. I do believe that meditation is the anti virus software that can cure our world of all of its ills. Meditation is not something you do, it's actually a state of being. I think there are portals into that state, but I think the portals have gotten a bit confused. But the portals of meditation they vary. Right. I'm a big tntra guy, and I know people listening to this they might say, oh, Tantra, you must have crazy wild sex. Huh. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no no. See, this is what the commercialization of spirituality has done. So tantra is a science and one of my favorite books the Vignanna Baharava Tntra. It speaks of one hundred and twelve Tontric practices to reach the point of what they call baharava oneness Christiana consciousness, christ consciousness, whatever name nirvana. Only two of them have to do with sex. One that has to do with sex really doesn't even have to do with sex. What it is is they say, at the point of orgasm, you put your mind fully on God. So I love the practices of tantra because they take meditation. I'm using air quotes. They take meditation off the mat, they take it out of lotus and bring it in the world. Right. Yeah. One of my favorite is space spatial awareness. Right. So, I don't know if people are driving. If you're driving, don't do this, But if you're sitting in a room or maybe when you pull over or you sit in your office. I want you to just look around and ask yourself what do you see? And when I ask people this question, they say, oh, well, I see chairs, I see a desk, I see a window, I see people. And I say, okay, yeah, but you miss that which was most of the space, which allows all that to inhabit. The space is what we are space. I feel like if there's any religion or any god that should be worshiped, it should be space because space is the most abundant thing in the universe. Matter is very very very tiny. Any physicists will tell you this, but this is just one to really focus on the space. You can focus on the space in between my words. So when you're speaking to somebody, you put your mind attention on the space, and what happens is your mind starts to take the form of the space. So this is something that people can do anywhere, anywhere. It really brings you to this nondual awareness, this peace, and this feeling of home. One of my favorite gurus and the Sarka Data Maharaji's got a quote that I have on my wall and he says, he says, having never left the house, you have been searching for the way home. Having never left the house, you have been searching for the way home. We search, search and search in life for joy and happiness and fulfillment. And what he's saying is, it's already here. It's you. It's not something you even have to do. It's your very nature. It's here and now. I love this practice, this contric practice. One other meditation that people can do in their daily life that I like to do from Tom to Tom is a walking meditation that I got from tick Nott Han, the zen Monk best selling author. We mentioned Martin Luther King earlier. Martin Luther King nominated tik Not Han for a Nobel Peace Prize. And what you do is, when you're walking, you can be in nature, you can be in your office. When you're walking, you want to focus on your breath. And with each step you want to breathe in. And as you breathe in, you say to yourself, I am here, and you breathe out on the exhale, you say, I am home, So I am here on the inhale. I am home on the exhale. And you do this as you walk, and as you walk, you imagine your feet are kissing the earth with every step. So you say, I am here, I am home, and as you walk, you kiss the earth with every step. And what you're gonna notice is your pace is gonna slow down, and you are gonna be filled with so much joy and presence and a liveness with this meditation. So this is another one of my favorites. Let me give you three, just to finish the trinity off. Let's see what else I got. So this is one that I got from a guy named Stephen Walynsky. I don't know if you're familiar with this guy, Stephen Wilensky. I'm not.

First of all, I want to say I love your questions, I love your vibe. I'm so excited to talk about these questions because they're super important. I don't think there's anything more important than the topic of meditation. I do believe that meditation is the anti virus software that can cure our world of all of its ills. Meditation is not something you do, it's actually a state of being. I think there are portals into that state, but I think the portals have gotten a bit confused. But the portals of meditation they vary. Right. I'm a big tntra guy, and I know people listening to this they might say, oh, Tantra, you must have crazy wild sex. Huh. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no no. See, this is what the commercialization of spirituality has done. So tantra is a science and one of my favorite books the Vignanna Baharava Tntra. It speaks of one hundred and twelve Tontric practices to reach the point of what they call baharava oneness Christiana consciousness, christ consciousness, whatever name nirvana. Only two of them have to do with sex. One that has to do with sex really doesn't even have to do with sex. What it is is they say, at the point of orgasm, you put your mind fully on God. So I love the practices of tantra because they take meditation. I'm using air quotes. They take meditation off the mat, they take it out of lotus and bring it in the world. Right. Yeah. One of my favorite is space spatial awareness. Right. So, I don't know if people are driving. If you're driving, don't do this, But if you're sitting in a room or maybe when you pull over or you sit in your office. I want you to just look around and ask yourself what do you see? And when I ask people this question, they say, oh, well, I see chairs, I see a desk, I see a window, I see people. And I say, okay, yeah, but you miss that which was most of the space, which allows all that to inhabit. The space is what we are space. I feel like if there's any religion or any god that should be worshiped, it should be space because space is the most abundant thing in the universe. Matter is very very very tiny. Any physicists will tell you this, but this is just one to really focus on the space. You can focus on the space in between my words. So when you're speaking to somebody, you put your mind attention on the space, and what happens is your mind starts to take the form of the space. So this is something that people can do anywhere, anywhere. It really brings you to this nondual awareness, this peace, and this feeling of home. One of my favorite gurus and the Sarka Data Maharaji's got a quote that I have on my wall and he says, he says, having never left the house, you have been searching for the way home. Having never left the house, you have been searching for the way home. We search, search and search in life for joy and happiness and fulfillment. And what he's saying is, it's already here. It's you. It's not something you even have to do. It's your very nature. It's here and now. I love this practice, this contric practice. One other meditation that people can do in their daily life that I like to do from Tom to Tom is a walking meditation that I got from tick Nott Han, the zen Monk best selling author. We mentioned Martin Luther King earlier. Martin Luther King nominated tik Not Han for a Nobel Peace Prize. And what you do is, when you're walking, you can be in nature, you can be in your office. When you're walking, you want to focus on your breath. And with each step you want to breathe in. And as you breathe in, you say to yourself, I am here, and you breathe out on the exhale, you say, I am home, So I am here on the inhale. I am home on the exhale. And you do this as you walk, and as you walk, you imagine your feet are kissing the earth with every step. So you say, I am here, I am home, and as you walk, you kiss the earth with every step. And what you're gonna notice is your pace is gonna slow down, and you are gonna be filled with so much joy and presence and a liveness with this meditation. So this is another one of my favorites. Let me give you three, just to finish the trinity off. Let's see what else I got. So this is one that I got from a guy named Stephen Walynsky. I don't know if you're familiar with this guy, Stephen Wilensky. I'm not.

I've followed you on all the references so far, but you've got one here. I don't know, Okay.

I've followed you on all the references so far, but you've got one here. I don't know, Okay.

So Stephen Wallinsky is like there's a few people that I want to meet in the world. Could probably count them with one hand. And he's probably at the top of my list as an author. He's written so many beautiful books, he's done documentaries. I have no idea where he is now. He kind of just disappeared. He's probably in deep meditation somewhere. He was a disciple of the guy that I mentioned the saga Da of Maharaj and Stephen Wilinsky had a meditation where what you do is you well, First, you obviously you know, you bring yourself to this moment. You relax your face, your jaw, your eyes, your shoulders, take a breath, and then you ask yourself, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I an American? Am I Russian? Am I Ukrainian? Am I Canadian? Or neither? And then you do that again. You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I black? Am I White? Am I Asian? Or neither? And then you go deeper. You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I a man? Am I a woman? Or neither? And then you go deeper without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories. Am I a human being? Am I even a spiritual being? Or neither? And what you do is you stay in this gentle, non judgmental awareness. This is our true nature. This is home, This is who we always were, without a name, without a label. This is why the Hindus. If you look at the Sanskrit word nirvana, people think nirvana is this state of h just ecstasy and amazing bliss. Actually, the word nirvana means extinction. There's no more you there, yep. So that meditation alone, I think, is a shortcut to pretty much what every spiritual tradition points to, which is the oneness. Right.

So Stephen Wallinsky is like there's a few people that I want to meet in the world. Could probably count them with one hand. And he's probably at the top of my list as an author. He's written so many beautiful books, he's done documentaries. I have no idea where he is now. He kind of just disappeared. He's probably in deep meditation somewhere. He was a disciple of the guy that I mentioned the saga Da of Maharaj and Stephen Wilinsky had a meditation where what you do is you well, First, you obviously you know, you bring yourself to this moment. You relax your face, your jaw, your eyes, your shoulders, take a breath, and then you ask yourself, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I an American? Am I Russian? Am I Ukrainian? Am I Canadian? Or neither? And then you do that again. You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I black? Am I White? Am I Asian? Or neither? And then you go deeper. You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am I a man? Am I a woman? Or neither? And then you go deeper without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories. Am I a human being? Am I even a spiritual being? Or neither? And what you do is you stay in this gentle, non judgmental awareness. This is our true nature. This is home, This is who we always were, without a name, without a label. This is why the Hindus. If you look at the Sanskrit word nirvana, people think nirvana is this state of h just ecstasy and amazing bliss. Actually, the word nirvana means extinction. There's no more you there, yep. So that meditation alone, I think, is a shortcut to pretty much what every spiritual tradition points to, which is the oneness. Right.

What's really interesting about that type of meditation, as you said, is get into that place when you suddenly said I'm not any of those things, to go well what am I? And to really look at that and if you're able to stay with it. You know, my experience is what you will find is like I I don't know. Yeah, but as you were talking, I can never pronounce that spiritual teacher's.

What's really interesting about that type of meditation, as you said, is get into that place when you suddenly said I'm not any of those things, to go well what am I? And to really look at that and if you're able to stay with it. You know, my experience is what you will find is like I I don't know. Yeah, but as you were talking, I can never pronounce that spiritual teacher's.

Name, miss Argandauda maharajh.

Name, miss Argandauda maharajh.

Yeah, you know he's got that idea of you know, you abide with that sense of I am, that's it, nothing after it I am. Because when you do that, you're like, well, I'm clearly there's something here, like something is, but but what is it? Where is it?

Yeah, you know he's got that idea of you know, you abide with that sense of I am, that's it, nothing after it I am. Because when you do that, you're like, well, I'm clearly there's something here, like something is, but but what is it? Where is it?

What shape is it?

What shape is it?

You just suddenly start going like, well, I don't know, there's nothing here that to find And it's a mystifying, sometimes mildly disconcerted and state. If you can get to it, but also deeply freeing.

You just suddenly start going like, well, I don't know, there's nothing here that to find And it's a mystifying, sometimes mildly disconcerted and state. If you can get to it, but also deeply freeing.

Only for the mind. Only for the mind.

Only for the mind. Only for the mind.

That's fair, Yeah, because the.

That's fair, Yeah, because the.

Mind wants to figure it out. It wants to objectify that which cannot be objectified. The eye cannot see itself, the knife cannot cut itself. The mind cannot truly know it's itself. What's what's being behind it? You can't get there with the mind. It's not the right tool. I think the last step of the inquiry is when the questions themselves disappear.

Mind wants to figure it out. It wants to objectify that which cannot be objectified. The eye cannot see itself, the knife cannot cut itself. The mind cannot truly know it's itself. What's what's being behind it? You can't get there with the mind. It's not the right tool. I think the last step of the inquiry is when the questions themselves disappear.

Yep, I was out today. I've been meditating in nature recently. I'm teaching a retreat this summer at Kripolu about nature and connecting with nature as a way, and so I've been really engaging in that practice. And I started reflecting on something I heard recently. It was some book about human development or evolutionary past, and that there was a time that we were human but we didn't have language to imagine what that might be like. Is a fascinating thought experiment, because most of our thoughts are words that we're saying to ourselves. But if you didn't have those words, what is the experience of being? And I've found that it's a really interesting thing. To reflect on, you know, and I do that sometimes, is like to your point, if not using memories, you know, not using language even Yeah, what is this is a really powerful way for me to get closer to that state of.

Yep, I was out today. I've been meditating in nature recently. I'm teaching a retreat this summer at Kripolu about nature and connecting with nature as a way, and so I've been really engaging in that practice. And I started reflecting on something I heard recently. It was some book about human development or evolutionary past, and that there was a time that we were human but we didn't have language to imagine what that might be like. Is a fascinating thought experiment, because most of our thoughts are words that we're saying to ourselves. But if you didn't have those words, what is the experience of being? And I've found that it's a really interesting thing. To reflect on, you know, and I do that sometimes, is like to your point, if not using memories, you know, not using language even Yeah, what is this is a really powerful way for me to get closer to that state of.

Being Wow, Yeah, because the word is not the thing, right, it's.

Being Wow, Yeah, because the word is not the thing, right, it's.

Now that can be named, is not the doubt right.

Now that can be named, is not the doubt right.

And yep, yep, yep. So that's how we get caught up. We get caught up in the words. So that's a fascinating thought experiment exactly.

And yep, yep, yep. So that's how we get caught up. We get caught up in the words. So that's a fascinating thought experiment exactly.

Well, but we must have been thinking, we must have been thinking, right, yeah, you know, but we didn't have the words. And it's just it's similar to me when I try and imagine what it might be like to be an octopus, for example. It's just a fun way of trying to say, like, there are states of consciousness that are very different than the ones we inhabit, and what are the different ways of kind of getting closer to those and being able to see with those eyes. I'm a zen practitioner primarily, and one of my teachers said to me, I thought this was so wise. We do a lot of coon practice in right, and they're nonsense, right at first glance, they're nonsense, but The advice I was given is sometimes imagine what the state of mind would have to be for the person who said that and believes it to be true, instead of going that doesn't make any sense, that's nonsense. To say what state of mind would I have to be in that that.

Well, but we must have been thinking, we must have been thinking, right, yeah, you know, but we didn't have the words. And it's just it's similar to me when I try and imagine what it might be like to be an octopus, for example. It's just a fun way of trying to say, like, there are states of consciousness that are very different than the ones we inhabit, and what are the different ways of kind of getting closer to those and being able to see with those eyes. I'm a zen practitioner primarily, and one of my teachers said to me, I thought this was so wise. We do a lot of coon practice in right, and they're nonsense, right at first glance, they're nonsense, but The advice I was given is sometimes imagine what the state of mind would have to be for the person who said that and believes it to be true, instead of going that doesn't make any sense, that's nonsense. To say what state of mind would I have to be in that that.

Would be true.

Would be true.

It's sort of a reverse engineering way of entering into the mind, and you can't do it exactly. These are all just tools portals to use your work, right.

It's sort of a reverse engineering way of entering into the mind, and you can't do it exactly. These are all just tools portals to use your work, right.

You know.

You know.

That's another one is when a spiritual teacher says something that you're like that that sounds nuts. One way of approaching is go, well, what would their mind state have to be for that to be true? You know, we're just kind of playing with ways of getting deeper powerful.

That's another one is when a spiritual teacher says something that you're like that that sounds nuts. One way of approaching is go, well, what would their mind state have to be for that to be true? You know, we're just kind of playing with ways of getting deeper powerful.

I mean, you can't see, I got chill bumps here. I mean, that's it. That's empathy, right, empathy the Greek word to see through the eye of the I mean, that's it. I mean. There's another meditation that I love. It's called to install the Guru. So what you do is you visualize your guru or your teacher, your enlightened master, and from the feet to the head, you imagine that their body merges with yours. You have installed the Guru into this self, which is very similar. Like what state of mind would that have to be in right to believe that powerful? Love? That? Eric? So good? So good.

I mean, you can't see, I got chill bumps here. I mean, that's it. That's empathy, right, empathy the Greek word to see through the eye of the I mean, that's it. I mean. There's another meditation that I love. It's called to install the Guru. So what you do is you visualize your guru or your teacher, your enlightened master, and from the feet to the head, you imagine that their body merges with yours. You have installed the Guru into this self, which is very similar. Like what state of mind would that have to be in right to believe that powerful? Love? That? Eric? So good? So good.

Do you have a spiritual teacher that you actually work with or do you feel like your spiritual teachers are primarily the people that you read? I mean, I know you're a voracious reader, just as I am. Do you have teachers that you actually work with or has it been more your sort of quote unquote gurus are the people we've talked about that you're reading.

Do you have a spiritual teacher that you actually work with or do you feel like your spiritual teachers are primarily the people that you read? I mean, I know you're a voracious reader, just as I am. Do you have teachers that you actually work with or has it been more your sort of quote unquote gurus are the people we've talked about that you're reading.

Yeah, yeah, the latter. I've definitely attended seminars and like Byron Katie and love her Gangaje and Eli Jackson Bearer who were disciples of a man named Papa g And you know, being around some of these people, but never on like a one to one student disciple. I've never had that. But I've just been so touched by so many masters. You know. I think rom Dos was one of my first on ramps into spirituality him and you know, Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson. I'm a big science guy too. So people say, oh, science and spirituality they don't go together. Why not? Well, science is the empirical pursuit of the truth, and spirituality is the experience that you pursue for the nature of what's real.

Yeah, yeah, the latter. I've definitely attended seminars and like Byron Katie and love her Gangaje and Eli Jackson Bearer who were disciples of a man named Papa g And you know, being around some of these people, but never on like a one to one student disciple. I've never had that. But I've just been so touched by so many masters. You know. I think rom Dos was one of my first on ramps into spirituality him and you know, Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson. I'm a big science guy too. So people say, oh, science and spirituality they don't go together. Why not? Well, science is the empirical pursuit of the truth, and spirituality is the experience that you pursue for the nature of what's real.

Yeah, they should go together, I mean, because you're seeking the truth in both cases exactly.

Yeah, they should go together, I mean, because you're seeking the truth in both cases exactly.

Yeah. So I never had a direct teacher. I think that. That's not to say I never will. I do believe that everything that we need is within us. Sometimes we are grace to be able to see that, and sometimes people need a master or a guru to point to it and tell them that actually, you're already that you don't even need me.

Yeah. So I never had a direct teacher. I think that. That's not to say I never will. I do believe that everything that we need is within us. Sometimes we are grace to be able to see that, and sometimes people need a master or a guru to point to it and tell them that actually, you're already that you don't even need me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these stories of people like Rhamdas when they saw their Guru and they instantly were like transformed has made it difficult for me to work with Zen teachers, which I found to be beneficial working one on one with a teacher, because my mind is always like, well, is this a truly enlightened being? And it's kind of silly right in a way, because it's almost they're more like a spiritual friend than they are, like, aren't guru?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these stories of people like Rhamdas when they saw their Guru and they instantly were like transformed has made it difficult for me to work with Zen teachers, which I found to be beneficial working one on one with a teacher, because my mind is always like, well, is this a truly enlightened being? And it's kind of silly right in a way, because it's almost they're more like a spiritual friend than they are, like, aren't guru?

Right?

Right?

But in the Zen tradition there are I don't like this word, but I don't have a better one. There are correct responses to co ons that have been passed down for thousands of years, and your teacher is the one who's like, yep, good, let's go into the next one. Or you know, very politely. Some are more polite than others. You know, you need to sit with.

But in the Zen tradition there are I don't like this word, but I don't have a better one. There are correct responses to co ons that have been passed down for thousands of years, and your teacher is the one who's like, yep, good, let's go into the next one. Or you know, very politely. Some are more polite than others. You know, you need to sit with.

That some more.

That some more.

Is what my teacher would always say, which is al way of saying, nope, you do not have Yeah.

Is what my teacher would always say, which is al way of saying, nope, you do not have Yeah.

Yeah, I love coons, by the way, and I'm so happy that you study that. I've got books to stick on all the coons.

Yeah, I love coons, by the way, and I'm so happy that you study that. I've got books to stick on all the coons.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yet, you know, it's what I've gotten from it is actually you become the answer.

Yet, you know, it's what I've gotten from it is actually you become the answer.

That's exactly it. The answer is always that, you know. It's a little of that game we talked about a minute ago, like what would it be like to be in the mind? You know, what would it be like to be the distant temple bell ringing? You know, that's one. How do you stop the sound of a distant temple bell ringing?

That's exactly it. The answer is always that, you know. It's a little of that game we talked about a minute ago, like what would it be like to be in the mind? You know, what would it be like to be the distant temple bell ringing? You know, that's one. How do you stop the sound of a distant temple bell ringing?

Right?

Right?

You can't get to it right, you know, And so it's about you become that thing. Some of it to me has been an imaginative exercise which turns out to be a powerful approach.

You can't get to it right, you know, And so it's about you become that thing. Some of it to me has been an imaginative exercise which turns out to be a powerful approach.

Love that. Yeah, that's it, that's it. Yeah, Coon's what what's my favorite kan Yeah, the Sound of one hand clapping classic, probably the most famous one. Yeah. Yeah. Does a dog have Buddha nature move mood? Yeah exactly. Yeah, it's so many beautiful ones, so many, they're they're great. I love them so much.

Love that. Yeah, that's it, that's it. Yeah, Coon's what what's my favorite kan Yeah, the Sound of one hand clapping classic, probably the most famous one. Yeah. Yeah. Does a dog have Buddha nature move mood? Yeah exactly. Yeah, it's so many beautiful ones, so many, they're they're great. I love them so much.

Yeah, there's a book that you might like, if you haven't read it. It's called Bring Me the Rhinoceros.

Yeah, there's a book that you might like, if you haven't read it. It's called Bring Me the Rhinoceros.

Maybe that sounds very coon like.

Maybe that sounds very coon like.

Yeah, yeah, Bring Me the Rhinoceros, by a Zen teacher named John Karen T A R. R. T. It's another one of those where yeah, I mean basically that's the end of the Coon Bring Me the Rhinoceros, which of course is just nonsensical, but ye know, so good. But that's a really great book about Coon's and about sort of a modern and he's a beautiful writer and teacher. He's really gifted. If you're into Coon's, that's definitely one to read. Okay, Bring Me the Rhinoceros.