We know that things like meditation and mindfulness practices are life changing, but we usually can't stick with them consistently enough to really see their benefits. We read inspirational authors, listen to podcasts like this one, and get fired up to apply what we've learned, and then inevitably we fall back into old patterns. It's so frustrating. When we can stick to our spiritual practices, their benefits are guaranteed to develop over time, but without enough traction, we barely scratch the surface. This is why any spiritual practice needs to become a habit for it to transform our lives. In the Spiritual Habits Group Program, I apply behavioral principles to powerful spiritual wisdom to help people live this wisdom so they experience the benefits on a deeper level. And this program is open for enrollment from May four through May had to Spiritual Habits dot net to learn all about it and sign up. The Spiritual Habits Group program is for people who value spiritual principles like mindfulness and acceptance but struggle to apply them to their life. In this program, I help you develop simple, actionable spiritual habits so you feel calmer, more at ease, and more fulfilled in your life. And you do this in our group setting in which community, connection and friendships are created which support you all along the way. Go to spiritual habits dot net to learn all about this opportunity for us to connect and dive deeper into how spiritual habits can transform the way you experience your day to day life that Spiritual habits dot Net. I hope to meet you in this special program very soon. I'm all for goals, I'm all for setting high targets, but I think mindfulness of being more present as a central key to wellness as a whole. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Paul McCarroll. He's an O c D and anxiety specialist, therapist and coach and mental health trainer from County Antrim in the North of Ireland. Paul also has a unique backs worry where he works as a trainer in the same hospital where he was once an impatient. He uses this story to inspire hope, reaffirm that recovery is possible, helping clients to stop struggling and start living. Hi, Paul, Welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to be here. Eric, thanks for having me. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm excited to have you on. You and I have known each other a number of years since very early when I started the show, and you were the person that introduced me to acceptance and commitment therapy, which you know, as we talked about before the show. I've had a number of the founders on and has been very influential in the way I view the world, or even to say it slightly differently just aligns with the way I see the world, and I know you're a practitioner of that also, So we're going to get into all that as well as your journey. But we're gonna start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which are resense things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. So, firstly, Eric, I think it's a great parable, and I can see why it's lasted the test of time. I think for all of us we almost have nearly two wolves, or at times the way I look at it, as you know, we have a lot of positive and helpful thoughts, we have a lot of negative thoughts, difficult memories, and sometimes urges show up which aren't so useful. So for me in my personal life and in terms of the work I do. How that resonates that it's not so much you know, trying to eradicate one and sort of you know, mente in the other. For me, it's about paying attention to something that matters. Pay attention to those things which actually mean the most to you. So you know, we can have these difficult thoughts, we can have these difficult feelings, but we can learn in a way to almost let them play like a wed in the background. But we learned to pay attention to those things that really matter to us. And are we going to have struggles? Are we going to have times where it feels like the bad wolf has has taken charge and taken over. Absolutely, But over the test of time, the more we're gonna pay attention to that good wolf, those more helpful thoughts and feelings that hopefully we can navigate life and be the offer of the life that we really want to live. Very well said, So you are a mental health practitioner, Now you are a coach. You do a lot of work with people around O c D. We're going to spend a fair amount of time talking about that, but you also are a mental health trainer at a hospital that you were a patient at absolutely, and by patient I mean a mental health patient at that hospital, And so I want to start there because it's a really inspiring journey from Okay, I'm a patient at this hospital too, I'm now training the people who are helping it to ask. But it's a long way to go. So tell me a little bit about what life was like in those days. Well for me, Eric, I mean I generally it was quite fortunate, growing up a really karen love and supportive family, very working class background. Um, my sort of problem seemed to develop in sort of teenage years, where you know, I went to a very academic school which was really really pushing academia, and to be fair, I would have described myself as someone who was sort of reasonably intelligent, but I just thought the rigor and the actual focus exclusively on academia as opposed to sports and the creative world, which I was very into, very stressful and overwhelment, and I seemed to develop, you know, at the time, if you can think about this, Eric, you know, and you're talking over twenty years ago, where mental health just wasn't talked about. There was a lot of stigma around and to be honest, at fifteen year generase, I didn't really know sort of what was going on. So I had to actually leave school at this point, didn't get some home school, and but just things didn't seem right it. In hindsight, I had the early symptoms of what we will probably go on to discuss eric of o c D, and it took a while to get a proper diagnosis of that, possibly because I was a little aware and afraid of the stigma. I just thought that that was going for as I just thought I had all these thoughts which were just not making sense. And it did take of him be an all of a sudden transparent a hospital admission for me to get the right treatment, the right support that I needed to try and get myself on the road to recover it. And it's something in Italy are like I probably would have refrained from telling people and was once an impatient, but ironically this is something which has been at the cornerstone of the work that I do. I have always resonated with the sound that the wounded becomes the healer, and like you said, it has been a real journey since then, but it sort of began an adolescence and really took a hospital miss some of the right support to get me on the road to recovery. Yeah, I love that phrase, the wounded becomes the healer. Makes me think when I was in treatment, it was the last time. I can't remember exactly how many there were before that, but the last time I remember there were a couple of professionals there and they were both highly trained, really knew what they were doing, but one of them was also of recovering addict, and that person, to me, just had a level of credibility to me that the other person just didn't have. Now I shouldn't say not level of credibility, level of relatability. And I felt like they would understand me, and they did. That's not to say that people who don't understand to some degree, but there's that connection. And you know, I think the most powerful thing A figured out really early on was how powerful one alcoholic talking to another was. And so I'm happy to see you have turned the corner to embracing Here's where I come from, because I think it really lends credence to the work that you do and makes you understandable to the people you work with. Yeah, and I think Eric, you know, looking back at it, I mean I left the hospital when I was seventeen and supposed to just to put that in a in a bit of context for people, I mean, I was seventeen. Most people may be beginning to go to university. Most people have gone through sort of high school and you know, out of place where you know, maybe their well world is sort of opening up. And and to be fair, it was opening up for me. Yes, and the fact of that this was not my recovery journey, but I had not one qualification to my name. It was quite a scary place. At the same time, the one thing that I had which has always stayed with me is a belief in my own ability to get well, and sort of beneath that was a real determination and almost a motivation that when I got well, the stuff that I would hopefully learn, as I've done my professional work to develop to use that to support others, so maybe people don't have to go through similar stuff that I went through. I see on that journey, in the initial stages, I would have called myself a bit of a sealth help junkie. Where I find I was always looking for the answer or the magic bullet or the magic want, always looking for a way to eradicate, minimize diminishment, difficult thoughts and feelings, and paradoxically I seemed to think that seemed to make things worse. You know, I did come across a lot of good materials and some of the stuff which we'll probably get into, but the mental health recovery to a journey. I really love the Japanese proverb fall down seven times, get abe it, you know, because for me, recovery is an awful lot like that. You know, it's not a linear process where you know everything is just gonna be one way, one positive trajector. It's about, you know, as somethimes we're going to fall, but we can get back up again, and every time we get up again, it's opportunity to learn what went wrong. But I suppose I've just given a bit of context that for me to get where I am, it took time. It's been a process. But I think what I've learned over the years, especially some of the feedback and testimonials I get from clients, is that one of the things that resonate with is my own lipped experience and being able to reliate the people going through similar issues. Yeah, makes sense. You said a couple of things there that I think are interested in. One is this idea of sort of being a self help junkie. If listeners have listened to a whole bunch of this show, they probably fall into that category a little bit, right, And I think it's just the classic double edged sword, right. I guess the Buddhist phrase of licking honey off a raiser comes to mind, because on one hand, it's that passionate desire to get better and to grow and learn that's so powerful and so useful, and it is a key element in the process, and there's a certain amount of learning to say, Okay, here's where i'm at. Let me be where I'm at without always thinking it needs to be someplace differ, Right, I need to think differently, I need to feel differently. It's this paradox of doing both those things. Yeah, I want to keep growing, I want to keep learning. I believe I can be better, life can be better, and I'm okay right here where I sit. Balancing that paradox has been certainly one of my big challenges. I agree Eric, and I think especially in today's society where you know, I'm a big advocate un user of social media, but I also think sometimes it inhabits problems. We're we're sort of always, you know, putting ourselves up against sometimes unrealistic medium where we're always trying to reach these at times levels which are nearly unreachable. I like a Jordan Peterson quote which I don't know what word for word, but it's about, you know, trying to be a better version of who you were yesterday, you know, And I think sometimes, I mean that's more realistic than trying to sort of set these unrealistic sort of targets which end up it's very difficult to be present because you're always and the next thing, you know, and I think it is about, as you said, Eric, you know, trying to find that sort of sense of equilibrium where you can be okay where you are, you can try and of course set goals that you want to you know, improve and do better in life. But at the same time, I think you can get on that sort of you know, trail where you end up completely missing the moment and actually it really seems to be anything that you do or achieve. You're never really fully present for because you're thinking of the next thing and the next thing. And there's a quote that I really like, should for the moon even if you miss your land among the stars. And what I interpret that to mean, eric is that I can aim high. Yes, I can try and be my best, but if I don't get to the right top that maybe social media is tell us that we have to go to that even if you're laying them on the start, I'm still landing pretty high. You're still doing well. So I'm all for goals, I'm all for certain high targets, but I think mindfulness and being more present is a central key to wellness as a I agree. I always like to try and reorient if I can, away from external targets to behavior based targets. So the joke I've been making lately is that Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama started a podcast, right, and so all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm competing with them, And I'm like, no, I'm not. That's ridiculous, Like I can't, right, So that's a target that is simply out of range. But I can't control how much we grow, how big we are what I can do is just continue to put my effort week after week into making the best show I can. And when I reorient that way, I have a place to put that energy, that energy that does seek better, that does want to grow, I have a place to channel it constructively, versus having it just always drive me towards these external rewards that my experience is for me when that's where my orientation is. As soon as I hit him, I just redraw the line. You know, if you told me once we'd have half the number of downloads we had, I would say, I'll take it. I would be happy forever with that number. Of course, I hit that number, I was like, well, that's nice, but what's next? You know, Oh that's good. But and so yeah, I hear you. And so that being present has become something that's it's a cliche in our days mindfulness and yet is so critically important. And I remember when I was first introduced to the idea of my influence in my own head. I I was just thinking of Buddhist monks on the top of the Himalayas and chanting and spending all day in silence, and I was like, I could not have any influence, impact or import in my everyday life. I was so wrong and that Eric, because it's probably been one of the biggest factors in terms of my recovery journey and actually stand well and a big central component in terms of working with clients. And I think this whole idea of my influence what it helps with me in terms of, you know, the clients I work with, specifically with struggle with anxiety and O c D and O c D was and that has been something I've carried for the gods to twenty years. The hallmark of that is these interests of which is basically another word for unwanted thoughts which are shown up which people believe when they're in that sort of fused manner where basically they're just completely blinkered, and they believe that those interests of thoughts that somehow something bad could happen, that somehow they could do something which is completely out of character to them, or that they have to maybe do something another time to make themselves fail right or fail a certain way. But all that is going on at a very internal level. It's all going on in the mind, you know, and it's all project into the future. It's catastrophizes and then really jump into all these worst case scenarios. You're you're going along the worst case scenario treein And I think what mindfulness helps us to do is to try and being more present help us to acknowledge that, yes, we have this brand. You know. I know that Steven Hey is the co finder of accept as a commitment therapy, you know, would use this idea that it's like we have this sports car between our years, but no one ever gave us a manual of how to use it, you know, And I think that that's true that I mean, I don't see our mind as you said, it's almost like a double edged sword. It's not our friend, but it's not our enemy either. It's about learning how to handle it. And I think mindfulness is a skill that we can use this sort of handle and begin to regulate some of these difficult thoughts and experiences that can show up for us. All. So let's talk a little bit about O c D. I'm assuming that's the diagnosis you were given when you're in the hospital and you have gone on to deal with that and now you help people with that. And I want to get into how we diagnose O c D in a minute, But I want to start with how do you talk about O c D as far as do you consider that you still have O c D? You just are treating it pretty well. Do you feel like it's something that you had and you don't have anymore? I think there's people in recovery. This is an interesting question. Am I an alcoholic or am I an ex alcoholic? And some of it's semantic, but some of it's not. And and so I'm kind of curious about that. And also what things do you do in your life now that keep you healthy? That's a very good question, Eric, I suppose for those listeners who maybe aren't particularly familiar with those citing and maybe give a brief synopsis of what it's sort of involved. So as as what A touched on there, you know, it's primarily people will get some difficult thoughts, difficult feelings, difficult urges that that will show up. And I use that word interested, and it basically means unlanted. So an example, I used to try and explain this to someone who would sort of have more obsessive type tendencies versus someone who doesn't. Say you and a friend decided to go up a hike up your local mountain and you get to the top. Believe it or not, it's not uncommon to have the thought would be like a jump. One person may be able to say people, that's a bit of a weird and random thought, but I need to focus on getting down this mountain before it's dark. So they've noticed the thought, they've noticed it a little bit strange and and and weird and uncomfortable, but they realize that almost it's just the thought, and let's get all of what we need to do. We just get down the mind and the other person can have that same thought, but it's almost like a constellation of other thoughts come around it, like what does this mean about me? Why am I having this thought? Am I weird? What's wrong with me? Am I suicidal? There's no way my friend could be having the same thought. So almost the distinction, I sort of say there is in the first instance, that person knownly or not as able to sort of have that thought, acknowledge that it's there, but we get recognized it's not worthy of their attention. The other person has had that thought, and almost by paying attention to it and almost being afraid by it, it's created more thoughts and have become more entangled, more ensnared. So over time that can build up into you know, maybe someone washes their hands. It's quite a generic example, and they'll have the thought that even though they've seen that their hands are washed, that the hands are clean, they may still have the thought that they don't fail clean, so I need to wash again, and that can lead into cycle where people can be at a sink for a long period of time and maybe developed things like red hands and things can can turn very uncomfortable. So really, what people do in terms of these interests of thoughts is what's called compulsions, will do some sort of behaviors are trying to alleviate the anxiety, like in that example wash their hands again. So really the work that I do and in terms of how I have managed to actually stay well myself, eric to sort of come around out the answering your question is I don't see O c D in terms of cure. I see managing O c D in terms of that we break the cycle. And the reason why I use that example about two people going down the mountain or going up the mountain and then coming down is that's a very good way. I see recovery in the fact of that sometimes I still get difficult thoughts, sometimes I still get urges to do things that I would rather not do, but I don't do those things that would be urged to do anymore. And I think that you can really then take almost whether you are dealing with O. C D or dealing with depression or addiction, you know when you can learn to partial it in that way that you can have the thought, you can have the urge, you can have the difficult experience, and you have the choice in terms of how you respond. I think that opens up a whole different ball game, And for me that's about it's a lot more liberating than you have a thought, you have a failing you have to act on it. First. We have this thought, but we have a choice of what we do with it. Yeah, that's sort of the fundamental starting point for so much of making life better in countless ways. Is that basic understanding, like, well, I think it, I feel it. A that doesn't make it true and be I don't need to do it. I can exist these thoughts and feelings can do that, and that that separation. So a question that often I have when you think about o c D. And I'm always a little ware of diagnosis in general, but I'm also particularly leery of it on you know, asking you to sort of make a diagnosis, and that's not what I'm doing. Like, take somebody who's a real extreme worrier, they're just always worrying. Where does it cross the line from I'm just a real worrier. Two, I have obsessive compulsive thoughts. And maybe maybe to say a cross the line is the wrong way to say it, because all this stuff is on a gradation, so maybe there's not an exact line. But how would someone sort of go, well, okay, I I do have a lot of thoughts that are difficult and unpleasant negative versus maybe I need to seek help for o c D. That's a very good question, Eric, and I think it's something which I mean in the work that I do, that I would gass also by people who may be are showing, you know, maybe sort of more minor symptoms versus those who's majorly affect on them. And really what it comes down into, Eric, is in terms of innote ways that affect in your life. You know, I think all of us as human beings. It's part of the human conditions sometimes that we worry that we have challenges and we have difficult thought processes would show up for us. But sometimes we as human beings are generally able to sort of manage that and regulate that in some sort of capacity. Where O c D is involved, you know, it can become so debilitating that it actually becomes a cornerstone of people's lives. You know, some clients I work with, maybe in the initial stages, most people when they go and take a shower or they have a wash, or they have a bath, it's it's not an issue for them, you know. I have worked with clients who have maybe you know, are spending two or three hours in the show because of the of the rituals that they have to do. There's other clients who will develop issues. For a lot of listeners who may be thinking all like just talking about that the stereotypical of O c D stuff, but for a lot of people can be literally just in the realm of there's a theme with an O c D called pure oh, where it just consists of obsessive thoughts where someone is like continually thinking, you know, I like that idea of rumination or if you think about the ki tune on the cud turn something over and over and over again, where it's completely taken them away further quality of life that they can't be present, that they or maybe going to work, but they're completely not present because they're so consumed with this stuff that's going on within their minds. So generally clients will come to see me Eric when it's getting to the place of where it's affect on things like their work, their family life, their hobbies, their quality of life to the point where they're finding that unmanigeable. And I think that for most people, whether it's me or another professional, they get a bit of relief when they start to realize that this is a problem which I can get help and support with because I know that as I mentioned at the beginning, I mean thoughts, I was having a nice lea thoughts you what's wrong with me? Like it's just you sort of get into this whole that you're just almost a maniac, or that you're going and seeing when actually have a real diagnosical problem, and with the right support, right help, that you can actually get the place of where you can live a life of mean and purpose. Let's talk about some of the treatments for o c D, because one of the most common ones is exposure and response, often referred to as e RP. But I don't think that's the only treatment for o c D. I think there are mindfulness based treatments. I think acceptance and commitment therapy can be used for o c D. So talk to me about how those sort of work together or ways that they differ from each other. I think exposure in response prefense and is probably it still is to this day, gold stands and for those listeners who maybe are unsure what it involves. You know, say, if someone has developed this idea of like they have to wash their hands ten times before they have to leave their house in the morning, so they've developed this almost anxiety and fear that they were to do that less times that that would be insurmountable, that would be too anxiety provoking. So what I would do with a client like that is we would try and great that in terms of like what's called the hierarchy of anxiety. So the exposure part and exposures response prevention stands for let's begin to expose the client to that thing that they are afraid of. But we're going to do it in a gentle, manageable manner. So in that example idea of where the person is washing their hands ten times, okay, next, and let's try doing at nine. And with the response prevention peace comes in as where you don't do the response of washing them again, you don't go and wash it to the tenth time. So what that treatment does in the initial stages that can be quite challenging, and you need to get the client on board, and that's where you need to think about values and things. Eric, you know of where you want to go with this is that I can be anxiety provoking, that you can sort of fail those physiological feelings of anxiety and all you want to do is wash your hands at one more time. But as you begin to refocus your attention on something as simple as Okay, I'm going to leave this, think I'm going to get out of the bar from and I'm going to go and think about the next task I have to do. Early between that time and by the time you've gone onto your next task, that anxiety diminishes. And over time of doing the ARP, whether it's in that example or others, clients begin to see that their anxiety reduces by itself without having to do these ritualistic behaviors. So that's the sort of e r P quality and suppose how we bring acceptance and commitment therapy into that, which is this idea of trying to be more willing to sort of have your experience as it shows up as supposed to fight suppress and get rid of it and and base our life on our values. And what we care about is that we're not just saying the clan okay, does this wash your hands, storry nine times just for the sake of it. We're staying up because we value and I value your life and I want you to spend less time at the SYNC and more time with your kids, or more time pursuing the things that you care about, you know. And I think then that's a completely different conversation because the necessarily when you talk about exposure and response prevntion, you're met with resistance. But when clients can see, well, you know what, this is going to help me to go where I want to go. That I can get back to university and I can spend more time with the kids, but I can go back and do that job that I want to do and clients send can be more on board. There are similarities there to addiction, recovery to right in that at some point, with addiction, if you say I'm not going to pick up the substance, You've got to face the feeling that's there and that fundamental sort of shift of how wash my hands one less time even though I really want to do it another time? Or I won't pick up the drink even though I really feel like it. And so there's that, And then I think the next thing you point to is so important, which is why why am I not picking up the drink? Why am I not washing my hands the next time? And that that's where we tie into what matters to us, what do we really want, what do we value? And turning our attention in that direction. So I think there's a lot of similarity there. I guess with mindfulness, i'd be curious if obsessive and compulsive thinking is Let's talk about it from just the obsession the thinking part, because again I think that a lot of people have this racing mind, and I think it's on a continuum. But mindfulness almost feels like, well, wait a second, I'm turning my attention to these thoughts, So talk about how that helps with O c D or does it sometimes get confusing and that's the wrong direction to turn. Say a little bit more about how mindful this ties in. I generally try and bring mindfulness and not not in terms in this lay of formal meditation practice generally is helping to see clients sort of. I would try and explain in very much sort of basic terms of what it involves and how it can be helpful. So I think, as you mentioned, you know, people with o c D even take the diagnosis ode of it. People with a recent mind a lot of difficult thoughts and feelings, they're spending a lot of time in the future and jump in the worst case, and I was that they were very rarely present, and you sort of bring this idea up, you know, would you like to try something we could help you to be a bit more present, which could help you to spend less time in that ether of the future where you know there are these things that could happen, but also different things that could happen also, you know, but the only really time we can make a difference as the here and now. You're trying to sort of put it in those terms. You know, clients start to see mindfulness as not this big abstract term that's only for people who can afford two days silent retreats, or you know, we can go and do a fancy, big room yoga class. You know, it brings it down to everyday individual and how I try and get clients on board as the recognition I'll bring in something of my own lived experience that for me, being mindful it's probably been one of the things along with acceptance of commitment, therapy and constructive living also which we may get into which keeps me well. You know, as you said at the beginning, it's almost like my own wellness toolbox. I can pick these things out, and being mindful is something which clients can resonate with. Once I get that idea of what it involves and how it can be applied to everyday life and making a difference. Then I'll bring in some sort of meditation practice generally involved in some sort of mindful breathing technique, or will do maybe a minute or so initially of helping people get more into their body and less into their mind, because that's what we see the involved awful lot of Eric spending so much time in our minds and we're so disconnected to our body and when we can come back to that. None of this, as well as just to just the caveator, is going to magically make the stuff go away. But what mindfulness does. It helps it to be more monageable, and as I know and Don Harris's book Temperson Happier, it can make things a lot more moniteable and make life more livable. Cognitive behavioral therapy is for listeners who aren't familiar. The basic idea is that you try and examine your thoughts for distortions, ways that you're not seeing the world correctly, and thus if you can see those distortions ideally, then you see the world more clearly and you suffer less. So it's a technique that I have found very useful in a lot of ways. I think it has limitations, but I want to talk to you about where some of those limitations are, particularly when it comes to obsessive thinking. So at first glance, it seems like, well, this would be a great thing to apply to somebody who's having obsessive thinking, but I don't think it really always is. Can you share why that is and when maybe it is a useful tool and when it's not. Yeah, and again another great question. And I think, I mean, I'll probably bring a bit of my own personal experience in here. I mean, in terms of my recovery and in terms of when I left the hospital, I would have went to a person clinic. I would have seen a very good, very robust, working a long time cognitive behavioral therapist, and we worked really well together, developed a really good rapport exposure and response prevention the ARP, which you've just talked about as a big component of cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's something which is used an awful lot in the treatment of O c D. But to answer your question, to answer it first of all personally, but I find difficult about CBT, especially the cognitivelopment, especially that bit you were mentioned about sort of trying to challenge, trying to rationalize, try and look for the evidence, almost try and you know, if you have a negative thought, let's try and look for the positive way on that. It sounded all very nice and paper and I think in the short term it had a little bit of benefit, But in the long term I still didn't stop those negative, difficult challenge and thoughts from showing up. Ross Harris used the term and offer of the happiness trap, another sort of accory. You know, if you go and learn Spanish, you're not going to forget English. You know, if you go to a positive thinking class, sometimes you're still going to get these negative thoughts which show up. So for me in my own personal life, and as I said before, very openly and honestly, I really was somewhat of a self help junking. I mean, if you could look around my room now, there's there's books from mindfulness to act to CBT, to logo therapy, whatever, union. But in my journey, for me, trying to spend too much time trying to figure out change, rationalized dispute thoughts nearly good in my own way, you know, it nearly paradoxically got me more stuck. The behavioral part of CBT is very useful, and I think in another therapeutic model, I think that's lasted the test of time, because it really is. But for me, it was about trying to get out of my own way, which helped me the most. You know, I suppose I'm bringing that in terms of the professional context, in terms of how I work with clients, and that way Eric where a lot of clients come to me, and their number one thing is they want to get rid of those difficult thoughts and feelings they are causing them distress. Their lives are terrible. This is not what they want anymore at first and foremost ibility of that, because it's a horrible place to be when you feel that, the stress that you don't know where to turn. I want to re poor is built. And once we sort of get comfortable with each other, I usually do the thought experiment, and we could do this here together very quickly. As you know, as hard as you can do not think about a pink elephant, and nine times to attend, some resemblance of a pink elephant will show up in your mind. So why am I even mentioning that? Because it's this idea that when you try not to think about something, which happens in a lot of anxiety problems where you try and avoid certain thoughts, paradox would seemed to think of with them more So. CBT has its uses, but I think it also has its limitations. So I think that's where the likes of acceptance and commitment therapy and some of these mindfless present moment based processes can be helpful away. I often think about it, and I'm curious kind of what your opinion is. I sometimes think that that CBT approach is a really good first step to see if the thought. If I just examine it and I go, oh God, that's not true. Sometimes I can see right through it and it all changes. There's a famous Stephen Covey story that I love where he's on a train and there's these kids running up and down in the train. I tell this story in my Spiritual Habits course. Kids running up and down on the train and they're yelling and disturbing everybody in the car. And Dr Covey's sitting there. He's just getting more irritated. And the dad of the kids is just sitting there, not doing anything, and these kids are yelling, they're bumping into people. He can't take it anymore. You know this story. You're shaking your head. And he finally goes up to the man. He says, excuse me, sir, your kids are disturbing everybody here. You know, maybe you could tone them down. And the guy looks up kind of dazed and says, oh, I'm so sorry. We just left their hospital and their mother just died and they don't know how to handle it, and I guess I don't either, And in that moment everything change, right. You can feel it when you hear that story. Instantly you go from thinking what's wrong with that guy? Is a jerk? To like, oh my god, what can I do to help that man? So that cognitive approach can be really power or full. I always find it worth exploring a different way. I could see this. What am I making it mean? But then after that I often find like, Okay, well that cleared away a little debris maybe, but now I'm just stuck in the debate loop. Now I'm just stuck in the debate loop with this negative thought. And that's then where I think pivoting towards a little bit more of a Okay, these thoughts are going to be here. How do I relate to them differently? How do I relax around them differently? Does that resonate with your way of approaching it? Absolutely? I think you couldn't have said it any better that you know, it's a great story, and sometimes you know, I mean I've I've experienced it in my own life. It's you know where maybe you could be walking down the street and maybe you we have a friend and they don't believe at you back, and you're maybe first initial thought is that ignorant pig, you know, don't even we have may back we find it later that day they didn't even see you, didn't even see you, or maybe that they were caught up in the world and you know that there's so many things going on and sometimes are I know when CBT, they'd use that word and to your automatic negative thoughts, the automatic thought that shows up free there is that that person is ignerant, that person is basically not giving me the time of day. When actually that particular thought it wasn't rational, it wasn't accurate. And like you said, I think in instance is like that sometimes reframing and looking at things a bit differently can be very useful. I think where it can have its strawbacks, especially in terms of working with people who have obsessive and anxiety type problems, is that the thoughts keep coming back, even in its name obsessive is that there is a chronic quality to whatever sort of treatment model is applied. Sometimes the thoughts will come back and show up again. So it seems to be what works really well. But with clients with those types of problems, Let's face Eric, we all getting to sometimes we all have difficult thoughts and for hands, but it's more, as you alluded to, what do we do when they show up? Do we get completely blinkered and we basically give them all our time or energy and attention and dictate what they do? Where oh I have the thought after wash their hands again, so I go and wash my hands again. Or because I'm for some people, they may have a thought that maybe when they're cutting up vegsibles that actually somehow cause harm to myself or others. You pay attention to that thought, you give it full believability. What do you do you stop using night So thoughts, in my opinion of very much like the weather in that they're constantly present, but also they're ever changing. So with that response, you know, if you have its raining, you bring your umbrella and you try and get on with your day. If it's suddy, you put on a nice pair of shorts and taster and try and do the best that you can with the situation. And when I'm working with clients, I try and validate what they're going through, but also given the choice that they can choose to do what's meaningful for them. And and the truth, Eric, it's it's how I try and live my own life, where sometimes I'll get difficult thoughts, I'll get urges to do things which aren't aligned with my values. But I've got the place oftwhere a bit like the radio in the background, where you can be at a restaurant and you can be having a meal, something I look forward to when the COVID restrictions sort of ease here where I'm at, and you can be fully engaged in your mail and the people you're with. You're not noticing that music in the background. It's still going on, but you're still engaged in what you're doing. You're focusing on that. When that good song comes up, that harbor or that bond you'll be you notice it. But when it's not, you just let it play on the background and you put your time and energy into your mail and those here with And I think we can actually learn to do that in our everyday life. With a thought shows up which is useful, Let's give it our time, let's give her attention, let's let it navigate what we do. But if it's unhelpful if it's sort of encouraging us to do things which are aligned with our values or could make things work. Let's just let that play away in the background where we focus on on the alb motel. So that's an analogy which I am some of my clients are find useful. I think it's a really useful analogy, and I'm curious about that. That's one of those things also that at least initially sounds good on paper and is really hard to do. Like, Okay, you're having the thought, just don't give it a lot of attention, and yet it's getting all the attention. There's a lot of energy bound up in it. So what are some techniques that people can use two? All right, there's that thought again, whether it's calling me to a compulsion or it's just I'm worried about the mortgage payment for the seven and fiftieth time today. Right, I realized that that's no longer a useful thought. There's nothing I'm gonna do about the mortgage payment at this point. I've done what I can do. It's just recycling. So what are some ways some techniques of going all right, how do I in acceptance of commitment therapy, we would say get a little distance from it. In Buddhism they would would say a very similar thing, sort of just observe it, don't engage with it. So what are some techniques for doing that? Because that's really easy to say and really hard to do a lot of times. In reality. Absolutely, and I think when we can get to that place where you know, thoughts and feelings can show up and we have a choice in terms of high respond it's a very liberating place to be. But you know, I think you have to be very careful why you parcel out ARC because I can almost seem quite invalidate and honestly for some people or it's like, okay, well you haven't dealt with what I've dealt with, or you aren't think of what I'm thinking, you aren't feeling what I'm feeling, you know, and people in necessary reaction is almost like he just tell me to sort of dismiss or ignore what I'm sort of experiencing, and I relegate. It's it's completely opposite. It's about helping client to get the place of where no they can acknowledge and be aware of what's showing up, but choosing to put their time, energy and attention onto something which is more meaningful. So I think the first part of that ERIC is to help get thoughts from a place where they're completely dominant and completely you know, at a place where they are dictating what you do behaviorally, so that to try and get a wee bit of wigle room. Let's try and save right, instead of the thoughts being up here covering or eye that's all we can see. Okay, we've got a bit of choice here, and now we can choose to go there or we can choose to do something else, and within acceptance of commitment therapy, that will be known as this idea of cognitive diffusion, of trying to get a bit of distance, trying to get a bit of space, a bit of separation from those difficult thoughts and feelings that are shown up. One way I would do that with clients is is what I would call it a three sentence exercise. You pick a thought. Generally, if I say zero, the thought basically is producing no anxiety inten It's like a hot thought. You wouldn't go near it. It's trying to pick a thought which shows up regularly for you, but it's maybe about halfway through the sort of anxiety, sort of vector scale, and we'll put the thought out there. So say, it might be the example you give quite a mortgage payment, that I have this huge mortgage payment. I'm never gonna finish it or pair it off. So what do you do? If you begin that, always the first sentences you'll write that out. The first sentences, I can't pay this payment. What we're going to do in the second and third sentence, we're going to add a couple of words to that, And the second sentence you'll add I'm having the thought that I can't make the mortgage payment, and the final sentence being I notice I'm having the thought that I can't make the mortgage payment. Obviously, that's something which I would encourage clients to do to give a goal. Obviously, if you type that in in YouTube, there's a lot of great videos that talk you through that. But it's that idea, and even as I say it myself and working with clients, I can help to create a wee bit of distance, help to get that thought from believability to Okay, there's that thought, and sometimes it hooks me. Here's people say and act. Sometimes it's sort of phases, there's nothing else that I can do. But when you get that wee bit of wiggle room, it's like, oh, choice comes in the room. And then it's about them bringing in those behavioral things, like what can I do on a practical level? Is there at that agency that I can speak with? Is there's some support I can get financially? Is it a case of I need to try and look for work. Is it a case that I'm able to get all the benefits that I'm entitled to. So it's not just that we, oh, let's have this thought about the moor Egan, let's do so that's not dealing about it. It's about recognizing, yeah, there's be things that need to be done here, but we can't make progress if we're just consumed by the negativity and the overwhelming nature of the phone. Yeah. I like that when I'm having the thought that, and then I noticed that I'm having the thought that it's just these degrees of separation similar to that idea. Often instead of saying like I'm anxious, you just say, well, anxiety is present, you know. It just changes the orientation a little bit, like Okay, it's here, but that's not what I am so those are all ways. Another one of my favorites that comes from accepting it's a commitment therapy is to sort of think those thoughts in a different voice. I found this one to be really helpful because I think one of the hardest things is that are good thoughts or maybe I won't even say good art. Positive thoughts are negative thoughts are accurate, thoughts are inaccurate thoughts. They all think in the same voice. It's the same voice. It's like, Eric, you should go murder people and take heroin. Is the same voice that's like, Eric, I think you should probably go donate your life savings to that orphanage. It sounds like the same person. I'm like, well, wait a second. So this idea of being able to put it in a different voice, and I shared on the podcast. I certainly share it with coaching clients a lot. But my inner voice one of the ones I use as e or the donkey from Winnie the Pooh. You know, my inner e or everything's just so sad. You know, it's not much of a tale. But I'm not much of a donkey. The minute that I take whatever I'm thinking and I hear it in that voice, it makes me smile. You know. Now I don't remember to do it often, but almost every time I do if I'm like, oh yeah, there's E or again boom, I have a different relationship helps you get that at a distance and by gild Ram, And to be fair, I was laughing at how accurate you were able to do that your voice. Eric, I know him, well, you're very skilled at at doing that voice. And I think that that's a very similar to that sort of three yet sentence exercise that I talked people through, same thoughts I allowed like that in a different tone. Some people use maybe a president's name they don't like, thrive voice that they didn't like, or maybe a sports commentator or maybe you know, people will sing it into the theme a happy birthday, And it's about trying some of this stuff. Eric. You know, I think that for me, even in my own acceptance of commitment therapy training, as I got really involved in the work, there was a little bit of stuff I was but hesitant off and that wouldn't work for me. And right now, three sentences, how's that going to help? Or you know, saying that I'm not going to do this thing to the signed a happy but actually when you give these things ago, he started to see that they can have benefit and they can be useful. Another one which probably you maybe touched on before in previous podcast, Eric, is that idea of sort of word repetition and how that can actually be helpful. They the sort of milk and milk exercise. Um, I know that's Stephen Hayes, who you've had on the show as well, and one of the co finders of Act basically uses an example of that. He was at a seminar and given a talk and basically one of the figures he was given was something like four and a half billion pounds, when actually the answer was four and a half million pounds. And he actually remembers going home that night to his apartment and just burying himself for saying this. Where I am sitting in where you are. It seems to maybe a minor thing in the grand scheme of things, but for him this was massive and mammoth, and he woke up in the middle of the night and he was again sort of overwhelmed by this. Sally, and you're such an idiot, You're such a stupid You're supposed to be a professor, and this is the sort of stuff you're doing. You're getting it wrong. And I said, well, maybe this is an opportunity to practice water prates. Let's try aw diffusion exercise and really what it involves. For thirty seconds you say a word which is troubling for you, and for thirty seconds he went stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, to the point that the word becomes almost meaningless nonsense. I just usedes and just business, he says, oh, And after that I felt, Okay, I'm back to sleep, you know. And I think it's it's that idea that there are skills that we can use that can really diminish the impact of some of the language that shows up within our head. And I know that in my life I generally try and live both personally and professionally as I've tranced out in my own way. I know that sometimes thoughts are going to show up that I don't approve or like. But I also know there's going to thoughts show up that are really useful to me. And I find that having that approach of almost let not play out, you know, and choose and which thoughts that pay attention to again, like you said, is a skill Eric and does take time, but it's a place that are a lot of clients that I work with a meat personally, and I think Eric, in your own life you're touched on and your own issues and challenges that you can get the place of you can live a life of me and the purpose even with the stuff that chows up sometimes. I love all those examples. As we were talking there, it occurred to me maybe the one you feed should offer a service. Chris will record a voice over of whatever your negative thoughts are and whatever ridiculous voice you want, and we'll we'll send it to you. He's a very talented voiceover expert. If you need an interview or a voice give me a ring. Um. Now, those are all really great. You and I are going to talk a little bit in the post show conversation about values because that's a big theme, is you know, living according to our values. Well, I'd like to talk about, Okay, how do I find my values and how do I know what they are without getting lost in another world of thought that feels confusing You and I will do that in the post show conversation. Listeners if you like access to that as well as add free episodes A weekly episode. I do call the teaching a song and a poem and a pleasure of supporting an independent podcast that needs your support. Go to One You Feed dot Net slash Joint Paul, thanks so much for coming on. It's been a real pleasure to finally get to have this conversation. Very welcome, Erica, Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single all are for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the One You Feed community. Go to When you Feed dot Net slash. Join The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.