The sort of ideal body shape for men has like ramped up to this ridiculous proportions in the same way that the ideal body shape for women has kind of shrunk to the part where you know, if Barbie was sized up to a real person, she'd have a feeding tube and not be able to work.

The sort of ideal body shape for men has like ramped up to this ridiculous proportions in the same way that the ideal body shape for women has kind of shrunk to the part where you know, if Barbie was sized up to a real person, she'd have a feeding tube and not be able to work.

Wow, welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Wow, welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ruth Whitman, a British author, journalist, and documentary filmmaker. Her essays cultural criticism and journalism have appeared in The New York Times, Time Magazine, New York Magazine, The Guardian, and many more. Her first book, America The Anxious, was a New York Post Best Book of the Year and a New York Times Editor's choice. Ruth is a regular speaker at venues including ted Ex, Google, The Moth, and Somerset House in London. Today, Ruth and Eric discuss her newest book, Boy Mom, Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity, and don't forget that The One You Feed podcast is now on YouTube, so you can watch some of your favorite interviews by going to the One You Feed pod on YouTube.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ruth Whitman, a British author, journalist, and documentary filmmaker. Her essays cultural criticism and journalism have appeared in The New York Times, Time Magazine, New York Magazine, The Guardian, and many more. Her first book, America The Anxious, was a New York Post Best Book of the Year and a New York Times Editor's choice. Ruth is a regular speaker at venues including ted Ex, Google, The Moth, and Somerset House in London. Today, Ruth and Eric discuss her newest book, Boy Mom, Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity, and don't forget that The One You Feed podcast is now on YouTube, so you can watch some of your favorite interviews by going to the One You Feed pod on YouTube.

Hi, Ruth, Welcome to the show.

Hi, Ruth, Welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me on.

Thanks so much for having me on.

It's nice to have you back on. We had you on maybe four or five years ago, and I remember really enjoying the conversation, so I'm glad we're getting to do it again. We're going to be discussing your latest book, which is called Boy Mom, Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do, with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

It's nice to have you back on. We had you on maybe four or five years ago, and I remember really enjoying the conversation, so I'm glad we're getting to do it again. We're going to be discussing your latest book, which is called Boy Mom, Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do, with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

First, thanks for having me back on the show.

First, thanks for having me back on the show.

And so this parable, I think it speaks to the fact that we are all complex beings. We are all both good and bad. These qualities exist within all of us, and there's no point denying that. There's no point pretending that we're all virtue and there's nothing wrong, or that we're sort of better than everybody else. But I think it also points to the fact that we have some agency in our lives. That we don't have full control, and the other wolf will always be there, but we have some choices around how we live and what our values are.

And so this parable, I think it speaks to the fact that we are all complex beings. We are all both good and bad. These qualities exist within all of us, and there's no point denying that. There's no point pretending that we're all virtue and there's nothing wrong, or that we're sort of better than everybody else. But I think it also points to the fact that we have some agency in our lives. That we don't have full control, and the other wolf will always be there, but we have some choices around how we live and what our values are.

I love that you know these things are in everyone, and I think that's relevant to your book because it's a book about masculinity. But you can't really talk about masculinity without talking about femininity, right, They exist on a pole. And as I walked away from your book, the one thing that sort of landed on me, and it's something I've thought about a lot over the years, is that the ideal person really has a blend of those characteristics. They're not all masculine, they're not all feminine, and to force ourselves into being all one way is damaging to us.

I love that you know these things are in everyone, and I think that's relevant to your book because it's a book about masculinity. But you can't really talk about masculinity without talking about femininity, right, They exist on a pole. And as I walked away from your book, the one thing that sort of landed on me, and it's something I've thought about a lot over the years, is that the ideal person really has a blend of those characteristics. They're not all masculine, they're not all feminine, and to force ourselves into being all one way is damaging to us.

I agree, and I think also i'd rather see us moving away from labeling qualities and traits with a gender. So whether we're talking about bravery or courage, or strength or physical toughness, which are associated with masculinity traditionally, or nurturing, caregiving, empathy, emotionality, you know, which are traditionally like feminine coded traits. In a way, I'd rather see a world where we're all able to embrace all of those things. They don't have a gender exactly.

I agree, and I think also i'd rather see us moving away from labeling qualities and traits with a gender. So whether we're talking about bravery or courage, or strength or physical toughness, which are associated with masculinity traditionally, or nurturing, caregiving, empathy, emotionality, you know, which are traditionally like feminine coded traits. In a way, I'd rather see a world where we're all able to embrace all of those things. They don't have a gender exactly.

Yeah, that's an interesting way to think of it. It's so deeply conditioned to think of things that way, and obviously those didn't get made up in a vacuum. Right over the millennia that there have been humans, there's been observations made and it said, hey, you know, more men seem to have this and women have that. But I agree with you that maybe taking them out of a gendered context makes them more applicable to everybody.

Yeah, that's an interesting way to think of it. It's so deeply conditioned to think of things that way, and obviously those didn't get made up in a vacuum. Right over the millennia that there have been humans, there's been observations made and it said, hey, you know, more men seem to have this and women have that. But I agree with you that maybe taking them out of a gendered context makes them more applicable to everybody.

Yeah, and more accessible to everybody, because I think, and I just want to state here, there's nothing bad about masculinity and there's nothing bad about femininity. They're both associated with all kinds of wonderful things. It's just that when we use that as a framework for, you know, a standard that we have to meet in order to be worthy, I think that's where the problem's coming. Whether that's if you're growing up as a boy and you feel you have to be you know, tough and strong and invulnerable and not show your feelings and not be like a woman. You know, that's quite an exhausting and kind of debilitating an unhealthy standard really to try to meet. Or whether you're a woman who has to feels they have to be demure and submissive and not have agency or pretty or you know, like an ornamental kind of object, and that is the standard you feel you have to meet. I'd rather that we just allowed everybody to embrace whatever sides of themselves they would like.

Yeah, and more accessible to everybody, because I think, and I just want to state here, there's nothing bad about masculinity and there's nothing bad about femininity. They're both associated with all kinds of wonderful things. It's just that when we use that as a framework for, you know, a standard that we have to meet in order to be worthy, I think that's where the problem's coming. Whether that's if you're growing up as a boy and you feel you have to be you know, tough and strong and invulnerable and not show your feelings and not be like a woman. You know, that's quite an exhausting and kind of debilitating an unhealthy standard really to try to meet. Or whether you're a woman who has to feels they have to be demure and submissive and not have agency or pretty or you know, like an ornamental kind of object, and that is the standard you feel you have to meet. I'd rather that we just allowed everybody to embrace whatever sides of themselves they would like.

To, right.

To, right.

Right. So the book is a personal book because you are sort of trying to balance a couple things inside yourself. Right. One is your deeply held feminist values, and the other is the fact that when you start the book, you have two boys and you're pregnant with your third boy. So there's this moment trying to embrace these feminine ideals. I've got boys. The culture is changing in such a way that some of the problems with masculinity around Me Too movement and all that sort of coming out, and you're trying to figure out, like, how do you raise boys in all of this. So it's a deeply personal book as you walk through it. It's also deeply personal in the challenges that you're having with your boys.

Right. So the book is a personal book because you are sort of trying to balance a couple things inside yourself. Right. One is your deeply held feminist values, and the other is the fact that when you start the book, you have two boys and you're pregnant with your third boy. So there's this moment trying to embrace these feminine ideals. I've got boys. The culture is changing in such a way that some of the problems with masculinity around Me Too movement and all that sort of coming out, and you're trying to figure out, like, how do you raise boys in all of this. So it's a deeply personal book as you walk through it. It's also deeply personal in the challenges that you're having with your boys.

The book is a mixture of memoir and reporting and analysis. But the memoir part of it opens in twenty seventeen, when I am eight and a half nearly nine months pregnant with my third boy, and the Me Too movement is just like bloading all around us. So you know, Weinstein's been exposed, and it kind of you know, as I write in the book, it seems to go within like a few days from Harvey Weinstein as a sex offender to every man on the planet is a sex offender. You know, it's just like one after another after another. There like horror show of bad news about men, and like the whole conversation about men and masculinity and kind of harm that men have inflicted on the world takes on this like very new and very different flavor and kind of a scary flavor, and especially a scary flavor if you're about to give birth to your third boy, right, Yeah, And so it was this very conflicted moment for me, both politically and personally. You know, personally, I'm there going, how do I raise a good son? Are men just hopeless?

The book is a mixture of memoir and reporting and analysis. But the memoir part of it opens in twenty seventeen, when I am eight and a half nearly nine months pregnant with my third boy, and the Me Too movement is just like bloading all around us. So you know, Weinstein's been exposed, and it kind of you know, as I write in the book, it seems to go within like a few days from Harvey Weinstein as a sex offender to every man on the planet is a sex offender. You know, it's just like one after another after another. There like horror show of bad news about men, and like the whole conversation about men and masculinity and kind of harm that men have inflicted on the world takes on this like very new and very different flavor and kind of a scary flavor, and especially a scary flavor if you're about to give birth to your third boy, right, Yeah, And so it was this very conflicted moment for me, both politically and personally. You know, personally, I'm there going, how do I raise a good son? Are men just hopeless?

You know?

You know?

Is it just that whatever I do, you know, it's inevitable that he's going to end up as being either some kind of predator or a school shooter or a you know, rapist or something like that. You know, That's the kind of angsty state of mind that I was in. But then like I'm like, I'm a feminist. I believe that so much of this is socialized, and we can do something differently. But there's part of me that's like very exhilarated and happy about the me too conversation.

Is it just that whatever I do, you know, it's inevitable that he's going to end up as being either some kind of predator or a school shooter or a you know, rapist or something like that. You know, That's the kind of angsty state of mind that I was in. But then like I'm like, I'm a feminist. I believe that so much of this is socialized, and we can do something differently. But there's part of me that's like very exhilarated and happy about the me too conversation.

It's like, finally women have a voice.

It's like, finally women have a voice.

We can call out this bad behavior, we can finally speak to it, and people are listening for the first time ever. You know, I feel like pretty much every woman feels like they've been saying this stuff for millennia and nobody, nobody has been listening. So finally people are listening. Finally women have a voice. But at the same time, you know, the mother part of me is like, I'm raising boys. I feel defensively, I don't want to think of them as being toxic or terrible or inevitably going to cause harm. So it was this very conflicted, very defensive, very complicated moment that the book opens, and it carries on, you know, the memoir part of the book lasts for the next five years until my youngest son goes off to kindergarten, and the whole time we're in the kind of shadow of this wider cultural conversation about masculinity, toxic masculinity, What is it? How do we do differently, how do we do better? And where are we going with men and boys?

We can call out this bad behavior, we can finally speak to it, and people are listening for the first time ever. You know, I feel like pretty much every woman feels like they've been saying this stuff for millennia and nobody, nobody has been listening. So finally people are listening. Finally women have a voice. But at the same time, you know, the mother part of me is like, I'm raising boys. I feel defensively, I don't want to think of them as being toxic or terrible or inevitably going to cause harm. So it was this very conflicted, very defensive, very complicated moment that the book opens, and it carries on, you know, the memoir part of the book lasts for the next five years until my youngest son goes off to kindergarten, and the whole time we're in the kind of shadow of this wider cultural conversation about masculinity, toxic masculinity, What is it? How do we do differently, how do we do better? And where are we going with men and boys?

Yep. And I think that what you do such a great job of in this book is you said it's complicated, right, you keep the complicated in it because this becomes sort of a political issue, right, and each side I often think lacks the nuance to have conversations that are actually useful. And that's true of the way that I lean politically and the other side, and you do a very nice job of keeping that in there and the struggles with it. I thought maybe we could move into asking you about the title, right, reimagining Boyhood, But it's the last part of the title. I'd like to get you to say something about which is impossible masculinity? What do you mean by that?

Yep. And I think that what you do such a great job of in this book is you said it's complicated, right, you keep the complicated in it because this becomes sort of a political issue, right, and each side I often think lacks the nuance to have conversations that are actually useful. And that's true of the way that I lean politically and the other side, and you do a very nice job of keeping that in there and the struggles with it. I thought maybe we could move into asking you about the title, right, reimagining Boyhood, But it's the last part of the title. I'd like to get you to say something about which is impossible masculinity? What do you mean by that?

So this was a really interesting process coming up with that title because you know, what do we say here? And actually the British version of this book, they chose to replace the word impossible with the word toxic, and I didn't like that choice. I prefer the impossible masculinity framing of this rather than toxic because I feel like masculinity has become impossible from all sides. So on the one hand, like all of the old pressures of masculinity, you know, the manner be tough, be strong, don't express your emotions, don't be vulnerable.

So this was a really interesting process coming up with that title because you know, what do we say here? And actually the British version of this book, they chose to replace the word impossible with the word toxic, and I didn't like that choice. I prefer the impossible masculinity framing of this rather than toxic because I feel like masculinity has become impossible from all sides. So on the one hand, like all of the old pressures of masculinity, you know, the manner be tough, be strong, don't express your emotions, don't be vulnerable.

Don't be a woos, don't be a pussy.

Don't be a woos, don't be a pussy.

You know, those pressures are still very much in circulation for boys.

You know, those pressures are still very much in circulation for boys.

They still have to subscribe to that.

They still have to subscribe to that.

They still are living in fear of as I think many men are of like being exposed as feminine or as not a real man. You know, there's this standard that they feel they have to live up to. But now there's this sort of voice from the left, or a sort of newer voice, which is, you know, boys, you're toxic, you're harmful, you know, you're very being is you know, you're just kind of like a predator in waiting. Whatever you do, you're wrong. And it's also it's time for you to shut up. It's everybody else's turn. Don't speak to your pain, don't speak to your experiences, because men have been listened to for so long and it's time for everybody else.

They still are living in fear of as I think many men are of like being exposed as feminine or as not a real man. You know, there's this standard that they feel they have to live up to. But now there's this sort of voice from the left, or a sort of newer voice, which is, you know, boys, you're toxic, you're harmful, you know, you're very being is you know, you're just kind of like a predator in waiting. Whatever you do, you're wrong. And it's also it's time for you to shut up. It's everybody else's turn. Don't speak to your pain, don't speak to your experiences, because men have been listened to for so long and it's time for everybody else.

To ever go.

To ever go.

So I think many men and boys that in this moment of just feeling like this is impossible, you know, from all sides, you know.

So I think many men and boys that in this moment of just feeling like this is impossible, you know, from all sides, you know.

Where do we go with this?

Where do we go with this?

You know, on the one hand, we're supposed to be so privileged and powerful, but we don't feel that way. We still have all of these old problems that nobody's really addressing or saying, and nobody really has any empathy. Like it feels like we have run out of goodwill for men and boys completely.

You know, on the one hand, we're supposed to be so privileged and powerful, but we don't feel that way. We still have all of these old problems that nobody's really addressing or saying, and nobody really has any empathy. Like it feels like we have run out of goodwill for men and boys completely.

We're done. And so I think what I wanted to.

We're done. And so I think what I wanted to.

Capture with the idea of impossible masculinity was just it's kind of impossible from everywhere. We're in this moment in the culture wars where things are very complex and boys and men just don't really know how to be, And I prefer that to toxic masculinity. I think there's something about the phrase time masculinity, and I believe it was a really important phrase in its moment. I think it really spoke to very specific phenomenon which is really important to call out. But I think for this generation of boys who weren't the ones doing this stuff, I think they just see it as so shaming and so shutting down of conversations rather than opening them up that I kind of didn't want to perpetuate that.

Capture with the idea of impossible masculinity was just it's kind of impossible from everywhere. We're in this moment in the culture wars where things are very complex and boys and men just don't really know how to be, And I prefer that to toxic masculinity. I think there's something about the phrase time masculinity, and I believe it was a really important phrase in its moment. I think it really spoke to very specific phenomenon which is really important to call out. But I think for this generation of boys who weren't the ones doing this stuff, I think they just see it as so shaming and so shutting down of conversations rather than opening them up that I kind of didn't want to perpetuate that.

Yeah, the book resonated with me in a lot of ways as a man, because I don't think the pressures you're describing are new and what I mean is I believe that in my generation might be the generation that first I think started to really face this a little bit more my dad's generation a little bit, but not as much, where if you were paying attention, you started to realize that the be a man story that was the traditional one was problematic. There was a lot of encouragement from it. And again I think this does start a lot on the liberal side and in communities that are more psychologically informed, spiritually informed, and I don't mean maybe not Christianity, but alternative spirituality, this idea that that way of being a man isn't right and it's problematic, so you should be different. And so that tension I have felt my whole life. Right, I grew up in a sense my father was very angry, very manly, and I grew up with I will not be like that. But that's a reaction to the standard, right, and it's still a way of like being in the box, so to speak. Right, it's just a slightly different box. So I just really resonated with a lot of that. I was surprised by how much I resonated with some of the in cells. Will get to that in a second. Really powerful book because I think I have wrestled for a long long time with what does it mean to be a man? And what do I do with these characteristics that again, maybe we get to a day where we don't gender them, but that are traditionally thought of as male, Those are in me, I feel them, those energies are there. To shove them away is problematic, but to let them just run wild is also, you know, can be very problematic. Right.

Yeah, the book resonated with me in a lot of ways as a man, because I don't think the pressures you're describing are new and what I mean is I believe that in my generation might be the generation that first I think started to really face this a little bit more my dad's generation a little bit, but not as much, where if you were paying attention, you started to realize that the be a man story that was the traditional one was problematic. There was a lot of encouragement from it. And again I think this does start a lot on the liberal side and in communities that are more psychologically informed, spiritually informed, and I don't mean maybe not Christianity, but alternative spirituality, this idea that that way of being a man isn't right and it's problematic, so you should be different. And so that tension I have felt my whole life. Right, I grew up in a sense my father was very angry, very manly, and I grew up with I will not be like that. But that's a reaction to the standard, right, and it's still a way of like being in the box, so to speak. Right, it's just a slightly different box. So I just really resonated with a lot of that. I was surprised by how much I resonated with some of the in cells. Will get to that in a second. Really powerful book because I think I have wrestled for a long long time with what does it mean to be a man? And what do I do with these characteristics that again, maybe we get to a day where we don't gender them, but that are traditionally thought of as male, Those are in me, I feel them, those energies are there. To shove them away is problematic, but to let them just run wild is also, you know, can be very problematic. Right.

You know.

You know.

One thing that I found when I was reporting and researching this book and talking to a lot of boys is one thing that I think is really hard for men and boys is that they don't have a very good vocabulary or sort of you know, just a good language and a good framework to really talk about this stuff. And I think that there's all these ways in which men are sort of subtly socialized not to really talk about their pain in different ways, or not to really talk about their issues, and so it's like, I think a lot of boys are feeling like I don't know how to be Everything feels wrong, but I don't really have the framework to talk about it. And I think that we have done as a society a pretty good job over the last few decades of giving women and girls a vocabulary to talk about the issues that face them. So it's not that those issues have gone away. But I think like pretty much any fifth grade girl, say, has the ability to like look through a book or look through a magazine and be like, that's sexist, you know, to call it out, this is wrong, this is oppressing me.

One thing that I found when I was reporting and researching this book and talking to a lot of boys is one thing that I think is really hard for men and boys is that they don't have a very good vocabulary or sort of you know, just a good language and a good framework to really talk about this stuff. And I think that there's all these ways in which men are sort of subtly socialized not to really talk about their pain in different ways, or not to really talk about their issues, and so it's like, I think a lot of boys are feeling like I don't know how to be Everything feels wrong, but I don't really have the framework to talk about it. And I think that we have done as a society a pretty good job over the last few decades of giving women and girls a vocabulary to talk about the issues that face them. So it's not that those issues have gone away. But I think like pretty much any fifth grade girl, say, has the ability to like look through a book or look through a magazine and be like, that's sexist, you know, to call it out, this is wrong, this is oppressing me.

You know.

You know.

I think these guys are so savvy to this stuff, and I think we've done a good job of giving them that framework to think about it and to call it out.

I think these guys are so savvy to this stuff, and I think we've done a good job of giving them that framework to think about it and to call it out.

Was I think with boys.

Was I think with boys.

And men, it's just they feel something's wrong, they don't feel like they have permission to talk about it, and they don't really have the tools to talk about it or the language. And so this is what I was trying to do in the book, was just give it a framework, give it a name, name the problem.

And men, it's just they feel something's wrong, they don't feel like they have permission to talk about it, and they don't really have the tools to talk about it or the language. And so this is what I was trying to do in the book, was just give it a framework, give it a name, name the problem.

Yep. So let's start with a core idea that is in the middle of all this, which is sort of gender essentialism, meaning boys have certain traits, girls have other traits. In the book, you say very clearly that it's possible to read the same research and come to two different conclusions that there are characteristics that are you know, built into boys, and there are characteristics that are built into girls. And you can find the research and read research and walk away completely convinced that that's true, and you can come to the exact opposite conclusion. And even if you're actually trying to get to the truth, which a lot of people just want to be confirmed of what they believe. But even when you're open to finding the truth, good lord, it's confusing.

Yep. So let's start with a core idea that is in the middle of all this, which is sort of gender essentialism, meaning boys have certain traits, girls have other traits. In the book, you say very clearly that it's possible to read the same research and come to two different conclusions that there are characteristics that are you know, built into boys, and there are characteristics that are built into girls. And you can find the research and read research and walk away completely convinced that that's true, and you can come to the exact opposite conclusion. And even if you're actually trying to get to the truth, which a lot of people just want to be confirmed of what they believe. But even when you're open to finding the truth, good lord, it's confusing.

It's really confusing.

It's really confusing.

And I think also, as I write in the book, I think that the whole thing becomes a kind of proxy for a different fight, which is like, you know, when we're talking about is it nature or is it nurture? You know, are we really trying to find out about that or are we using this research to further an agenda that we already have.

And I think also, as I write in the book, I think that the whole thing becomes a kind of proxy for a different fight, which is like, you know, when we're talking about is it nature or is it nurture? You know, are we really trying to find out about that or are we using this research to further an agenda that we already have.

And that happens on both sides.

And that happens on both sides.

I think there are people with very traditional gender beliefs who go through that research and they're like, look, it's all innate, it's natural that there's nothing we can do about it. Women are like this, men are like that, and women should stay in their place, you know, and men should stay in their place. And you know, it's a way to justify sort of regressive things, And on the other side of things, you have feminists who are like, this stuff is all socialized, it's all just you know, the only reason why that men and boys behave the way they do is because we socialize them into that. And if we socialize them differently, we'd have a totally different outcome. And I think, you know, I read through this body of research many times and I feel like, honestly, anyone who's really approaching it in good faith would say that this is a mix. You know, it is a mix of nature and nurture. We will never know in exactly what proportions. And these are always group level differences, you know, they don't necessarily apply to anyone individuals.

I think there are people with very traditional gender beliefs who go through that research and they're like, look, it's all innate, it's natural that there's nothing we can do about it. Women are like this, men are like that, and women should stay in their place, you know, and men should stay in their place. And you know, it's a way to justify sort of regressive things, And on the other side of things, you have feminists who are like, this stuff is all socialized, it's all just you know, the only reason why that men and boys behave the way they do is because we socialize them into that. And if we socialize them differently, we'd have a totally different outcome. And I think, you know, I read through this body of research many times and I feel like, honestly, anyone who's really approaching it in good faith would say that this is a mix. You know, it is a mix of nature and nurture. We will never know in exactly what proportions. And these are always group level differences, you know, they don't necessarily apply to anyone individuals.

So you know, it's like height.

So you know, it's like height.

You know, most men are taller than most women, but you will find women who are six foot tall, and you will find men who are five feet tall. And that's true. But at a group level there are differences, I think. And also nature and natural sort of aren't really distinct. You know, there's the field of epigenetics, so what genes get turned on and off by how we socialize people. But what I ended up feeling was that, yes, there are some elements of this which are hardwired biologically, or tendencies which are biologically hardwired.

You know, most men are taller than most women, but you will find women who are six foot tall, and you will find men who are five feet tall. And that's true. But at a group level there are differences, I think. And also nature and natural sort of aren't really distinct. You know, there's the field of epigenetics, so what genes get turned on and off by how we socialize people. But what I ended up feeling was that, yes, there are some elements of this which are hardwired biologically, or tendencies which are biologically hardwired.

But actually we use.

But actually we use.

That, we use the idea that you know, boys will be boys, or that you know, boys are just wired this way as an excuse to kind of not do anything about it, you know, to do less parenting, when actually those traits should encourage us to do more, you know, to step in more to help boys find and girls, you know, to help everybody find new ways to be.

That, we use the idea that you know, boys will be boys, or that you know, boys are just wired this way as an excuse to kind of not do anything about it, you know, to do less parenting, when actually those traits should encourage us to do more, you know, to step in more to help boys find and girls, you know, to help everybody find new ways to be.

You tell a really compelling story near the end of the book about something you observed when you took Abe to his first day of kindergarten. Yeah, we want to tell that story.

You tell a really compelling story near the end of the book about something you observed when you took Abe to his first day of kindergarten. Yeah, we want to tell that story.

Yeah, so this is like a very very tiny story, and I think, you know, I'm always slightly hesitant to tell it because it's the kind of thing that people to be like so minor, so nothing. But I think what I was trying to convey is that these kinds of very minor things add up, right, you know, it's a million million examples of the same thing. So what I noticed I took him to kindergarten. He's this tiny little kid, he's very anxious. It's his first day of school and we're going through the gate and there's this like big guy there. I think he might be a teacher or a volunteer. I'm not sure, but so right in front of my son in line, there's these two girls and the guy says to the first girl.

Yeah, so this is like a very very tiny story, and I think, you know, I'm always slightly hesitant to tell it because it's the kind of thing that people to be like so minor, so nothing. But I think what I was trying to convey is that these kinds of very minor things add up, right, you know, it's a million million examples of the same thing. So what I noticed I took him to kindergarten. He's this tiny little kid, he's very anxious. It's his first day of school and we're going through the gate and there's this like big guy there. I think he might be a teacher or a volunteer. I'm not sure, but so right in front of my son in line, there's these two girls and the guy says to the first girl.

Hi sweetheart, you know this little.

Hi sweetheart, you know this little.

Sweet voice, and then the next girl, Hi sweetheart, And then my son walks through and his voice goes down.

Sweet voice, and then the next girl, Hi sweetheart, And then my son walks through and his voice goes down.

An entire octavity.

An entire octavity.

He's like, oh, buddy, and gives him a high five, and it's like he has communicated in this tiny way that these girls are vulnerable, they're in need of protection and nurture, and that they have a right to be scared, they have a right to be anxious, and that adults are going to respond to that. And he's communicated to my son that he must tough enough, that he's a man now, he's in the system of masculinity.

He's like, oh, buddy, and gives him a high five, and it's like he has communicated in this tiny way that these girls are vulnerable, they're in need of protection and nurture, and that they have a right to be scared, they have a right to be anxious, and that adults are going to respond to that. And he's communicated to my son that he must tough enough, that he's a man now, he's in the system of masculinity.

It's not really okay that he's.

It's not really okay that he's.

Scared and vulnerable and he has to kind of toughen up and get through it. And it's this tiny little moment, and it's very well meaning, and the guy was a lovely person. He's not trying to do anything wrong, but it's just having boys. You notice that like right from birth. And there's a lot of research to support this that we kind of masculinize them in all these subtle ways that we project these masculine qualities. We see them as sturdier, we see them as tougher, we see them as less in neative nurture and protection, and we give them less nurture and protection as a result.

Scared and vulnerable and he has to kind of toughen up and get through it. And it's this tiny little moment, and it's very well meaning, and the guy was a lovely person. He's not trying to do anything wrong, but it's just having boys. You notice that like right from birth. And there's a lot of research to support this that we kind of masculinize them in all these subtle ways that we project these masculine qualities. We see them as sturdier, we see them as tougher, we see them as less in neative nurture and protection, and we give them less nurture and protection as a result.

And I think that's what the process of conditioning is. It's little things that add up. It's a thousand little experiences that grow into something bigger. So I found this, you know, Yeah, it's very little, and I think your point is important. The guy there was a kind, good person doing the best he could, right, And yet there is a message encoded in that, And it's interest because we tend to think of boys as being stronger, but you say that boys are by almost every measure, more sensitive, fragile, and emotionally vulnerable. Explain that, because I think it's easy for us to see the boys could be more aggressive or rambunctious, right, those boy things, But in what ways are they also sensitive, fragile, and emotionally vulnerable.

And I think that's what the process of conditioning is. It's little things that add up. It's a thousand little experiences that grow into something bigger. So I found this, you know, Yeah, it's very little, and I think your point is important. The guy there was a kind, good person doing the best he could, right, And yet there is a message encoded in that, And it's interest because we tend to think of boys as being stronger, but you say that boys are by almost every measure, more sensitive, fragile, and emotionally vulnerable. Explain that, because I think it's easy for us to see the boys could be more aggressive or rambunctious, right, those boy things, But in what ways are they also sensitive, fragile, and emotionally vulnerable.

Yeah, this was one of the biggest surprises to me, and it's actually really well established in the literature. It's not like some controversial thing that I've blacked out of nowhere. What is really surprising is that a baby boy is born with his brain. And when I'm talking about the right hemisphere of his brain, which is the part that deals with emotions, emotional self regulation, attachments, relationships, he's born with that part of his brain about a month behind a baby girl in development. So baby girl is born naturally more emotionally resilient and independent and with less need for a caregiver. And so you see that boys at birth are like a little fustier, like they find it harder to calm down. They're more stressed by difficult events like being separated from their mothers. And you can see that actually, any sort of bad thing that can happen to a baby, like any adverse event, like you know that the mom has postpartum depression and doesn't bond properly, or that you know he's neglected, or that he's abused, or he grows up in poverty, all of those things have been shown in the data to have a bigger effect on boys than they do on girls. Boys' brains are just naturally more vulnerable to disruption in those early years, and that carries on. But I think what happens so boys actually need a little more care and a little more support right from birth. But because of our stories about masculinity, we believe that a boy is tougher and sturdier and he needs less care. And you see all this research about how parents like handle baby boys differently. They rough house with them, they jiggle them, whereas they tend to give girls more of this kind of caretaking touch, you know, and they talk to girls more about their emotions, they use more words, they use more language, and you know, they just treat them in a slightly more nurturing and emotive way. And so I think this like combination boys need more that they get less really leads to some problems down the line.

Yeah, this was one of the biggest surprises to me, and it's actually really well established in the literature. It's not like some controversial thing that I've blacked out of nowhere. What is really surprising is that a baby boy is born with his brain. And when I'm talking about the right hemisphere of his brain, which is the part that deals with emotions, emotional self regulation, attachments, relationships, he's born with that part of his brain about a month behind a baby girl in development. So baby girl is born naturally more emotionally resilient and independent and with less need for a caregiver. And so you see that boys at birth are like a little fustier, like they find it harder to calm down. They're more stressed by difficult events like being separated from their mothers. And you can see that actually, any sort of bad thing that can happen to a baby, like any adverse event, like you know that the mom has postpartum depression and doesn't bond properly, or that you know he's neglected, or that he's abused, or he grows up in poverty, all of those things have been shown in the data to have a bigger effect on boys than they do on girls. Boys' brains are just naturally more vulnerable to disruption in those early years, and that carries on. But I think what happens so boys actually need a little more care and a little more support right from birth. But because of our stories about masculinity, we believe that a boy is tougher and sturdier and he needs less care. And you see all this research about how parents like handle baby boys differently. They rough house with them, they jiggle them, whereas they tend to give girls more of this kind of caretaking touch, you know, and they talk to girls more about their emotions, they use more words, they use more language, and you know, they just treat them in a slightly more nurturing and emotive way. And so I think this like combination boys need more that they get less really leads to some problems down the line.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and refin. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice?

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and refin. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice?

In your life.

In your life.

Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at one youufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good Wolves together. You quote somebody who works in this space as saying, you know, we have an epidemic of uncared for boys. No wonder we're seeing all this toxic masculinity when they grow up. The other thing that we're seeing is and again this is not controversial. This is very clear in the data. Boys are not thriving in the world today. Young men are struggling in many ways. Tell me about some of those ways.

Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at one youufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good Wolves together. You quote somebody who works in this space as saying, you know, we have an epidemic of uncared for boys. No wonder we're seeing all this toxic masculinity when they grow up. The other thing that we're seeing is and again this is not controversial. This is very clear in the data. Boys are not thriving in the world today. Young men are struggling in many ways. Tell me about some of those ways.

So, young men are struggling in education. They're falling behind girls in pretty much every measure from kindergarten to college through postgraduate degrees. They're enrolling in college in fewer numbers than girls. They're much more likely to drop out of college. Unemployment rates amongst young men are rising faster than in any other group. Boys and young men are not socializing as much as young women are. They're spending far more time on screens and far less time socializing in person. So the suicide rate for young men is about close to four times the rate for young women, even though we see in the data that young women are more likely to report that they're depressed. So boys and men are like holding this stuff inside until it's way too late.

So, young men are struggling in education. They're falling behind girls in pretty much every measure from kindergarten to college through postgraduate degrees. They're enrolling in college in fewer numbers than girls. They're much more likely to drop out of college. Unemployment rates amongst young men are rising faster than in any other group. Boys and young men are not socializing as much as young women are. They're spending far more time on screens and far less time socializing in person. So the suicide rate for young men is about close to four times the rate for young women, even though we see in the data that young women are more likely to report that they're depressed. So boys and men are like holding this stuff inside until it's way too late.

They're not seeking help.

They're not seeking help.

There's a serious mental health problem with young men at the moment, but they're not getting help for it, and they're not able to articulate it. So all these different ways boys are not doing well.

There's a serious mental health problem with young men at the moment, but they're not getting help for it, and they're not able to articulate it. So all these different ways boys are not doing well.

And so I know there are a lot of theories about why this is, and you probably don't have an answer, but what are the theories that make most sense to you.

And so I know there are a lot of theories about why this is, and you probably don't have an answer, but what are the theories that make most sense to you.

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think.

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think.

You know, there's this voice from the mainly from the right, which is like, boys don't have enough masculinity. They just need to toughen out. What we need to sort of toughen them up more. And back in the good old days, they were tougher and stronger and they were doing better. But I think that is a misreading of everything that's going on personally.

You know, there's this voice from the mainly from the right, which is like, boys don't have enough masculinity. They just need to toughen out. What we need to sort of toughen them up more. And back in the good old days, they were tougher and stronger and they were doing better. But I think that is a misreading of everything that's going on personally.

I think that what's going.

I think that what's going.

On with boys at the moment is a combination of an old problem and a new problem. So the old problem is the old story that we've had for generations and generations, which is, you know, the tough en up that boys are undercard for in those sort of emotional and nurturing ways that they're meant to squash their emotions, and these things can lead to quite psychologically unhealthy mind So all of those old pressures of masculinity I think are really unhealthy for boys and men. Men used to rise just because they had privilege. You know, it used to be that they would rise to the top just because everybody else was kept down. But now we're taking away the barriers for everybody else. We're starting to see that the way that we're raising boys is actually really unhealthy, and that you know, without privilege, they're just kind of crumbling. Also, I think there are sort of more modern pressures which are like things like screens have given boys a real kind of option to avoid the real world in a way that they never really had before, And so I think that it's easier. For example, you know, it's never been a more fraught time to have sex and relationships as a boy or young man. And it's never been easier to get your phone and just watch porn, for example, And it's very fraught for boys socializing in the real world. They don't know how to be. It's never been easier to just get on a video game and like live out your heroic masculine fantasy.

On with boys at the moment is a combination of an old problem and a new problem. So the old problem is the old story that we've had for generations and generations, which is, you know, the tough en up that boys are undercard for in those sort of emotional and nurturing ways that they're meant to squash their emotions, and these things can lead to quite psychologically unhealthy mind So all of those old pressures of masculinity I think are really unhealthy for boys and men. Men used to rise just because they had privilege. You know, it used to be that they would rise to the top just because everybody else was kept down. But now we're taking away the barriers for everybody else. We're starting to see that the way that we're raising boys is actually really unhealthy, and that you know, without privilege, they're just kind of crumbling. Also, I think there are sort of more modern pressures which are like things like screens have given boys a real kind of option to avoid the real world in a way that they never really had before, And so I think that it's easier. For example, you know, it's never been a more fraught time to have sex and relationships as a boy or young man. And it's never been easier to get your phone and just watch porn, for example, And it's very fraught for boys socializing in the real world. They don't know how to be. It's never been easier to just get on a video game and like live out your heroic masculine fantasy.

You know.

You know.

One expect that I spoke to in the book characterized it as a kind of combination of.

One expect that I spoke to in the book characterized it as a kind of combination of.

Fear and ease.

Fear and ease.

So it's like fearful being in the real world and it's easeful being on a screen. Yeah, So that's one part of it. And you know, there are also economic reasons. I think that the types of jobs that boys used to go into are in decline, you know, all of those kind of manufacturing roles. So I think it's a combination of all different kinds of things that are all coming together in this cultural moment that we're at.

So it's like fearful being in the real world and it's easeful being on a screen. Yeah, So that's one part of it. And you know, there are also economic reasons. I think that the types of jobs that boys used to go into are in decline, you know, all of those kind of manufacturing roles. So I think it's a combination of all different kinds of things that are all coming together in this cultural moment that we're at.

And when we talk about this, you know, you can't talk about it without talking about privilege, right, that men have had over time. There was something in the book though, that genuinely shocked me, and it was that black girls, many measures, are doing better than white boys.

And when we talk about this, you know, you can't talk about it without talking about privilege, right, that men have had over time. There was something in the book though, that genuinely shocked me, and it was that black girls, many measures, are doing better than white boys.

Yes, and that was really surprising to me as well.

Yes, and that was really surprising to me as well.

This was in the chapter about education specifically, So when it comes to success in high school, rates of going to college, rates of postgraduate degrees, on most of these measures, black girls.

This was in the chapter about education specifically, So when it comes to success in high school, rates of going to college, rates of postgraduate degrees, on most of these measures, black girls.

Are doing better than white boys.

Are doing better than white boys.

And so all of our understanding of systems of privilege, you know, of race and gender are being turned on their head. You know, if privilege leads to success, then you would think that white boys would be doing better than anyone because they've had every type of privilege, you know, racial and gender privilege. And black girls, you know, you have to hand it to them, you know, it's amazing. They have the same limitations, the same structural obstacles, the same underfunded schools, the same lack of opportunities as black boys, but they've managed to overcome all of those and you know, overtake white boys. And so I think what we're seeing is that something about the way we are socializing boys and particularly when it comes to education, is really harmful. One thing that I would say about this sort of modern moment that we're in is that, you know, we've got all the old pressures of masculinity that all our fathers lived with and our grandfathers, but also like this kind of flavor of masculinity is changing as well. So it used to be this kind of we had this model which was like be a tough guy, to press your emotions, but also be a family man, be a breadwinner, be a provider, and those stories were also like really part of masculinity. But our kind of model for masculinity is becoming like more of a kind of cartoon action hero kind of masculinity. You know, a kind of muscle man. You see these kinds of masculinity. Influencers are all kind of doubling down on this model. So it's like taking all the seeds of the old model, but just turning it into a cartoon. It's basically you know, muscles and guns and cage fighting all the way down. And so that is creating even more pressures around masculinity.

And so all of our understanding of systems of privilege, you know, of race and gender are being turned on their head. You know, if privilege leads to success, then you would think that white boys would be doing better than anyone because they've had every type of privilege, you know, racial and gender privilege. And black girls, you know, you have to hand it to them, you know, it's amazing. They have the same limitations, the same structural obstacles, the same underfunded schools, the same lack of opportunities as black boys, but they've managed to overcome all of those and you know, overtake white boys. And so I think what we're seeing is that something about the way we are socializing boys and particularly when it comes to education, is really harmful. One thing that I would say about this sort of modern moment that we're in is that, you know, we've got all the old pressures of masculinity that all our fathers lived with and our grandfathers, but also like this kind of flavor of masculinity is changing as well. So it used to be this kind of we had this model which was like be a tough guy, to press your emotions, but also be a family man, be a breadwinner, be a provider, and those stories were also like really part of masculinity. But our kind of model for masculinity is becoming like more of a kind of cartoon action hero kind of masculinity. You know, a kind of muscle man. You see these kinds of masculinity. Influencers are all kind of doubling down on this model. So it's like taking all the seeds of the old model, but just turning it into a cartoon. It's basically you know, muscles and guns and cage fighting all the way down. And so that is creating even more pressures around masculinity.

For boys in this moment.

For boys in this moment.

I think it's even more ridiculous and even more hyped up than it ever was in many ways.

I think it's even more ridiculous and even more hyped up than it ever was in many ways.

Yeah, and it's interesting. My son and I've talked about this. My son is twenty six, so he's a young man, and we've talked about how there is lots of resources for men right out there, but they are overwhelmingly right wing and or very very Christian, which again that's not necessarily bad unless you're neither of those.

Yeah, and it's interesting. My son and I've talked about this. My son is twenty six, so he's a young man, and we've talked about how there is lots of resources for men right out there, but they are overwhelmingly right wing and or very very Christian, which again that's not necessarily bad unless you're neither of those.

Things, right, and then where do you go?

Things, right, and then where do you go?

Yeah, Yeah, And that is the question him and I've talked about, is it just doesn't seem that there's places to go to talk about what being a man is or masculinity is in a time where the social pressures around that are changing very rapidly.

Yeah, Yeah, And that is the question him and I've talked about, is it just doesn't seem that there's places to go to talk about what being a man is or masculinity is in a time where the social pressures around that are changing very rapidly.

And I think boys are very fearful to talk about it, and rightly so, for being called out for being overprivileged or being entitled, or man's blending or taking up too much space, you.

And I think boys are very fearful to talk about it, and rightly so, for being called out for being overprivileged or being entitled, or man's blending or taking up too much space, you.

Know, exactly. And yet it's critical, right you talk about this idea, you say, we don't experience our lives or emotions as part of a political class, but as individuals. So the fact that men, for as long as we can go back, have been privileged and have had power is all true. And some of that trickles down to young men of today. Right. It's not that there's not some inherited benefit there, but I know that around young people today, in a lot of spaces, I think being a straight white man is possibly the lowest social category. It is just a category that nobody, like you said, nobody wants to hear from shut up, right, We've heard from you for long enough, right, And that's not tenable as an individual, right.

Know, exactly. And yet it's critical, right you talk about this idea, you say, we don't experience our lives or emotions as part of a political class, but as individuals. So the fact that men, for as long as we can go back, have been privileged and have had power is all true. And some of that trickles down to young men of today. Right. It's not that there's not some inherited benefit there, but I know that around young people today, in a lot of spaces, I think being a straight white man is possibly the lowest social category. It is just a category that nobody, like you said, nobody wants to hear from shut up, right, We've heard from you for long enough, right, And that's not tenable as an individual, right.

And these boys who are growing up now, they haven't lived that context, you know, And that context is real and it's important and we have to remind boys and men of it. And so it's really complicated. My friend was telling me this story the other day about how Hassan, who's I think eleven, was at school and they had an affinity group for every sort of identity category. So it was like the black students affinity.

And these boys who are growing up now, they haven't lived that context, you know, And that context is real and it's important and we have to remind boys and men of it. And so it's really complicated. My friend was telling me this story the other day about how Hassan, who's I think eleven, was at school and they had an affinity group for every sort of identity category. So it was like the black students affinity.

Group, the LGBTQ girls.

Group, the LGBTQ girls.

Affinity group, and the one that they didn't have was for boys. And it's like, well, boys have already had power, you know, and this is meaningless to an eleven year old boy. They defin look powerful in their own life, they have nowhere to process it. And the thing that kind of compounds it is that, yes, it is true that patriarchy has given boys and men access to power. That is a very real thing. But even in that system, boys and men have been deprived of some really important things, which is emotionality, intimacy, human connection. So, as I say in the book, you know, under patriarchy, boys and men have everything except the thing that's most worth having, which is human connection, access to human intimacy. And so even under patriarchy, it's not that men had all benefit and no harm. Patriarchy harms men and boys precisely, and so there's no way to talk about that.

Affinity group, and the one that they didn't have was for boys. And it's like, well, boys have already had power, you know, and this is meaningless to an eleven year old boy. They defin look powerful in their own life, they have nowhere to process it. And the thing that kind of compounds it is that, yes, it is true that patriarchy has given boys and men access to power. That is a very real thing. But even in that system, boys and men have been deprived of some really important things, which is emotionality, intimacy, human connection. So, as I say in the book, you know, under patriarchy, boys and men have everything except the thing that's most worth having, which is human connection, access to human intimacy. And so even under patriarchy, it's not that men had all benefit and no harm. Patriarchy harms men and boys precisely, and so there's no way to talk about that.

We've focused so heavily.

We've focused so heavily.

Particularly, there is a rich tradition within feminism of recognizing that patriarchy harms men and boys. But it's like we've forgotten it all, you know, in this moment post me too. It's just like your privilege, you get everything you're lucky. Shut up, and that is not a healthy way for any young person to live or to grow right.

Particularly, there is a rich tradition within feminism of recognizing that patriarchy harms men and boys. But it's like we've forgotten it all, you know, in this moment post me too. It's just like your privilege, you get everything you're lucky. Shut up, and that is not a healthy way for any young person to live or to grow right.

And there's a couple different points in the book that you make this point that you know, what we're doing is we're trying to sort of push men down instead of sort of get everybody to the same level. That doesn't really work. And you say, you talk about this because what we're talking about you put it in one sentence. It's hard to square male privilege with male vulnerability. You have both those things happening at the same time. Men have had privilege, do have privilege to a certain extent, and yet men as a whole, younger ones in particular, are extraordinarily vulnerable right now to many different problems. And so I think you do a great job of walking through this. I wanted to turn a little bit now to something that I didn't really know about it. I had heard the term in cell, but I didn't honestly even know what that really meant. Yeah, before we go into it, share with me what that is.

And there's a couple different points in the book that you make this point that you know, what we're doing is we're trying to sort of push men down instead of sort of get everybody to the same level. That doesn't really work. And you say, you talk about this because what we're talking about you put it in one sentence. It's hard to square male privilege with male vulnerability. You have both those things happening at the same time. Men have had privilege, do have privilege to a certain extent, and yet men as a whole, younger ones in particular, are extraordinarily vulnerable right now to many different problems. And so I think you do a great job of walking through this. I wanted to turn a little bit now to something that I didn't really know about it. I had heard the term in cell, but I didn't honestly even know what that really meant. Yeah, before we go into it, share with me what that is.

Okay.

Okay.

So the word in cell stands for involuntary cell of it. So it's a group of generally pretty young men on the internet and often adolescent boys as well. We're pretty young men who believe that they have been excluded from sex and relationships. They can't have sex, they can't find a girlfriend or a partner, and they're extremely lonely and usually profoundly depressed, and often have pretty toxic politics. Not always, but often have pretty toxic politics. So they are misogynistic. There's sort of links between in cells and like white supremacy and all kinds of like really repulsive.

So the word in cell stands for involuntary cell of it. So it's a group of generally pretty young men on the internet and often adolescent boys as well. We're pretty young men who believe that they have been excluded from sex and relationships. They can't have sex, they can't find a girlfriend or a partner, and they're extremely lonely and usually profoundly depressed, and often have pretty toxic politics. Not always, but often have pretty toxic politics. So they are misogynistic. There's sort of links between in cells and like white supremacy and all kinds of like really repulsive.

Ways of being in the world.

Ways of being in the world.

Not all in cells are like that, and they have all these theories about you know, they believe that it's a kind of genetic inevitability that they will never find women. They believe that women are terrible and they're shallow, and they're only interested in men for their looks, And they congregate in these online communities, and at their most extreme they have this kind of violent fringe. So the in cells and sort of in cell adjacent men have been associated with several acts of mass violence, including mass shootings. Some of the very prominent school shootings have been traced back to men who have been associated with this movement. And it's a really complicated and scary and also fascinating and sad phenomenon. And in the book, I spend some time digging into this community. So I spend a lot of time in their spaces online, in their communities and forums, and I go pretty deep into viewing a few of them.

Not all in cells are like that, and they have all these theories about you know, they believe that it's a kind of genetic inevitability that they will never find women. They believe that women are terrible and they're shallow, and they're only interested in men for their looks, And they congregate in these online communities, and at their most extreme they have this kind of violent fringe. So the in cells and sort of in cell adjacent men have been associated with several acts of mass violence, including mass shootings. Some of the very prominent school shootings have been traced back to men who have been associated with this movement. And it's a really complicated and scary and also fascinating and sad phenomenon. And in the book, I spend some time digging into this community. So I spend a lot of time in their spaces online, in their communities and forums, and I go pretty deep into viewing a few of them.

Two of them end.

Two of them end.

Up in the book, two of these interviews that are really quite lengthy and detailed with these two guys. Yeah, it was really quite an eye opening experience in a lot of different ways.

Up in the book, two of these interviews that are really quite lengthy and detailed with these two guys. Yeah, it was really quite an eye opening experience in a lot of different ways.

Yeah, what I find interesting about it is there are many people who believe that you shouldn't even give these people any airtime, that they're not lonely sad men, that they're toxic, dangerous people. So that you've got that view of the world. Now, I tend to be of the view that generally that you know that phrase hurt people, hurt people meaning that like you're hurting somebody, it's because you are damaged right in many ways. And look at the in cell community. Was difficult for me because a lot of these men are feeling like they're not attractive enough, they're not tall enough, they're not strong enough for any women to desire them. I was a scrawny child and a short child, and it took me really till high school, before I was able to really have sort of any success with women. Is that even a useful phrase anymore? Did I just say something that people are gonna be like, you can't say that?

Yeah, what I find interesting about it is there are many people who believe that you shouldn't even give these people any airtime, that they're not lonely sad men, that they're toxic, dangerous people. So that you've got that view of the world. Now, I tend to be of the view that generally that you know that phrase hurt people, hurt people meaning that like you're hurting somebody, it's because you are damaged right in many ways. And look at the in cell community. Was difficult for me because a lot of these men are feeling like they're not attractive enough, they're not tall enough, they're not strong enough for any women to desire them. I was a scrawny child and a short child, and it took me really till high school, before I was able to really have sort of any success with women. Is that even a useful phrase anymore? Did I just say something that people are gonna be like, you can't say that?

But I don't know. I mean it didn't like for me, but you know, who knows, probably.

But I don't know. I mean it didn't like for me, but you know, who knows, probably.

Before I could have any relationships and go on any dates, right, Okay, Yeah, So a lot of reading them with their complete belief that because of their physical looks they would never find a relationship was really saddening. And the thing that was most sad about the community to me and you talk about it is just the deep hopelessness in the whole thing. It's this belief that nothing could get better for them.

Before I could have any relationships and go on any dates, right, Okay, Yeah, So a lot of reading them with their complete belief that because of their physical looks they would never find a relationship was really saddening. And the thing that was most sad about the community to me and you talk about it is just the deep hopelessness in the whole thing. It's this belief that nothing could get better for them.

Yeah, And this sort of is in contrast to a lot of what we have come to call them manisphere, which is like the you know, all of these sort of masculinity people online, the masculinity influencers, the Andrew Tates, the sort of quasi self help masculinity groups on the internet. Because most of that sort of manisfhit is predicated on this idea that there is a thing called an alpha male and that if you work hard at it, you.

Yeah, And this sort of is in contrast to a lot of what we have come to call them manisphere, which is like the you know, all of these sort of masculinity people online, the masculinity influencers, the Andrew Tates, the sort of quasi self help masculinity groups on the internet. Because most of that sort of manisfhit is predicated on this idea that there is a thing called an alpha male and that if you work hard at it, you.

Can become that.

Can become that.

So They sell this like they sort of prey on these vulnerable boys by saying, we know that you already feel insecure about your masculinity.

So They sell this like they sort of prey on these vulnerable boys by saying, we know that you already feel insecure about your masculinity.

Yes there is an alpha male.

Yes there is an alpha male.

Yes, this person is going to get all the women and all the success and all the status. And I can sell you exactly the model.

Yes, this person is going to get all the women and all the success and all the status. And I can sell you exactly the model.

To get together.

To get together.

So pumpey and and this, And the difference between those guys and the in cells is that the in cells they believe all this stuff. They believe there's an alpha male, they believe there's a hierarchy. They believe in this system, but they've given up hope of ever climbing that ladder themselves. And what's so interesting about them is that, so on the one hand, there's some of the most like it is toxic masculinity central over there. You go on those boards, there is misogyny that you just wouldn't believe. There's talking about raping and torturing women. There's like some of the most repulsive views that you could ever imagine on those boards. What there also is is this deep sense of vulnerability, belonging and connection like brotherhood. It's almost that because they've kind of given up on ever climbing the masculinity ladder, that they're freed from all of its pressures as well, so they don't have to mann up and be tough and strong and invulnerable, and they can actually express their emotions and their sort of love for one another in a way that most men can't. So it's like both the worst of masculinity and this kind of freedom from masculinity, which is really interesting.