In this episode, Dr. Sara Kuburic explores ways to uncover the path to self-discovery and healing. She offers a compelling perspective on the topic of embracing personal responsibility for healing. Drawing from her own transformative journey and experience as a therapist, Sara brings a depth of insight and understanding to the complexities of healing and self-discovery.
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People will come to me and be like, Sarah, what is the right choice? Should I do this or should I do that? You know all the time, and obviously I don't make the choices for them, and I go. The right choice is the choice you want to take responsibility for.
Wow, welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor Sarah Kubrick, an existential psychotherapist, co founder of the Phenomenological Society, a speaker, essayist, columnist, and consultant. Today Eric and Sarah discuss her book It's on Me, Accept hard truths, discover yourself and change your life.
Hi, Sarah, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to talk to you. We're going to be discussing your book, It's on Me, Accept hard truths, discover yourself and change your life, which I love that phrase, it's on me. But before we get into that, we'll start, like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandshot stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Yeah, it's such a lovely, simple, yet thoughtful and provocative parable. To me represents that we all contain multitudes, that we can literally be anything. And although that's an inspirational concept, I think that's also a scary one. If you feed the wrong wolf, you will become someone you don't like or someone you don't recognize. And honestly, from kind of my clinical experience and research experience, he made me immediately think about my doctoral studies where I was speaking with individuals who have committed infidelity. And he was fascinating because one of the sentences I ken't reoccurring was I never thought I could possibly do something like that. And it's such an interesting sort of concept that we are all possible of pretty much anything. What a scary thing to really think about. And that's what he makes me think of. We are possible of anything. Nothing is unobtainable almost, and you have to be really really selective about the choices that you make in life.
Yeah, it brings me to like one of the key points that I got through the book, and I think you express really really well. And it's an existentialist idea, meaning we are completely free to do whatever we want. You could say that, well, you're not free to do that. You know, you're not free to go one hundred miles an hour on the highway, but you actually are. You just may not want to deal with the consequence. But with that freedom comes in many cases a real anxiety and an overwhelmed because we have to figure it all out.
Yeah, I think we all want freedom. If I ask someone on a street, do you want to be free? They would say yeah, absolutely. But what I see in my clinical work all the time is that people surrender freedom. They surrender their freedom to institutions, to frameworks, to worldviews, to their community, to their family, to their culture, whatever it is. And part of that is obviously wanting to belong and the other part of that is just wanting someone to give us a script and tell us exactly how to do things. Even if we're unhappy. We would rather be unhappy than ultimately have the anxiety that comes with the freedom. And so although freedom sounds really nice, you know, deep down, I do believe most people want it. I think it's incredibly difficult and scary. And that's something that we don't talk about, the fact that we accidentally give our freedom away.
So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing, So if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little good Wolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode, right, we accidentally give it away, and I think there is a place for intentionally giving it away, absolutely give it aways. Maybe not the word that I would use, but by intentionally choosing to put some constraint in our life can make us actually, at least my experience is almost feel more free. Because this is sort of a trivial example of it. But if I wake up on a day off and I have absolutely nothing planned and no idea what I'm going to do, I actually struggle because the whole time I'm like, should I do this? Or should I do that? Or what about this? And it's just I don't like it. But the minute that I that I put some structure in there, I'm like, okay, well you know what, at ten, you're going to go take a walk and then at three you'll go to the grocery. As soon as I put a little bit of structure in, I suddenly feel more free to actually be. I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict. And there was a phrase we used to use which was the structure liberates absolutely. So I think what we're trying to get at here is how do you know in what cases you are giving your freedom away? And in what cases is that a decision you want to make versus an unintentional, autopilot way of doing it.
Yeah. No, I loved your example. Structure is I think the cure for this anxiety of freedom. And I think as long as the structure is intentional. So you made those choices. You decided to go to the store at three and you decided you were going to work out a ten, and that was a very deliberate choice. I think you can create your own structure. I think what and let's take you to a different example is a lot of people think what if you are religious? For example, And this is something that a lot of philosophers, existentialists have. They have things to say about it, and I don't think that they have to be mutually exclusive. I don't think that religion within itself has to take away your freedom. I think it takes away your freedom when you didn't consciously choose it, when it became autopilot, when it was something that was purely just passed down to you and you never had a moment to go does this align? Is this something I want to implement? How am I going to choose to implement it. It's not so much that a structure has to impose. It's that when we become passive into structure and don't ever reevaluate, don't ever question, don't ever decide within it, that I think it becomes an issue. And you know, religion is not the only thing. It's education, it's culture, it's families system. So as long as there is a moment of discernment, I think we can happily live within structures and not feel like that imposed on our freedom.
Yeah.
So I want to start kind of at the beginning with you and a little bit of your story, because I think it's relevant to where we're going to go and the first places. You say, by the age of nine, I had survived the Bosnia and Kosovo War. So tell us a little bit about your childhood.
Yeah. So I was born in Bosnia and shortly after the Botani War started and we moved to Serbia. A couple of years later, the native bombings occurred and it was a very fascinating childhood. I wouldn't say I have a lot of memories from my childhood, but I haven't enough, and I would say the most salient memories are definitely those of kind of wartime. And I think it really skewed my perception of humanity. I think it made me very curious, but it made me very scared of humans. I think it really made me distrusting. It was a fascinating thing to live through. Instead of being a child that was playful and trying to explore and express, I think I went into self protection boat and I saw all the adults do the same, and so it really changed the way that I functioned up to my twenties, and I didn't even realize. And part of the reason I didn't realize it is because so many people I was close with survived the exact same thing and we normalized it. The first time I realized it wasn't normal to have spent nights in bomb shelters was when I was sitting in front of my therapist in my twenties and it just kind of made like a passing comment to that, and she's like, wait, what she had to highlight and point out that you know, this isn't a common experience for many, and this is difficult, and it's not something that should be normalized to the extent that I was normalizing it. And so it was a very unique childhood. But I think it really made me sort of see the darkness of humanity really really early on.
Yeah, and your book, to a large degree, is about discovering yourself. You actually use that phrase very specifically, which we will get to, and it also starts off with it's on me, meaning it's my responsibility. And so i'd love to talk a little bit and using that background as a starting place, right, because that's a traumatic childhood. Yes, yeah, I think we throw that word around a lot these days, but by any objective measure, that's a traumatic childhood. And so I'd love to understand the process for you in which you owned that you're able to recognize the effects that it had had on you, but you were also at the same time able to recognize it was entirely your responsibility to heal from that. Talk about the journey to get there.
Yeah, I think for the longest time I didn't want to admit that it impacted me, which now as we're talking about it objectively is a very traumatizing experience, and I think the reason I didn't want to admit that it impacted me is because I felt like that was a failure. As silly as that sounds, it's like I must not be a strong enough person to, you know, not be able to handle that. That means that they got the best of me, whoever that they, in my head was at the time, and look at them. They still have this impact on me two decades later, and I think that really scared me. And that felt like a failure in my part, and that felt like a victory on their part. And I think for a long time I didn't want to realize that the consequences were there. And I think once I did, the question of now what came up real quick, and I could have used that as an excuse to act in many ways, but I think the suffering up to that point was already so strong that all I wanted was to get better. And instead of going, Okay, well, now I can use this and justify all the things I wanted to do and never did, potentially, I just went, now what, Okay, that was really crappy. That was not my fault. I was the victim in that context. How do I show up in a way that I won't hate my life so much anymore? And I knew that the only way to do that was to actually start being present for me. I always say, a responsibility saved my life.
So it sounds like you went through this. When when did you guys leave and you came to the States or to Canada?
Canada? Canada?
Yeah?
Yeah, nine, I was nine, Okay, So it.
Sounds like from nine for a while on, you just sort of like, I'm just going to put that in the rear view mirror. I'm not going to let it impact me because, like you said, it feels like that someone else has won then and I'm strong, and you carried on and then you hit a point where you had a sort of a breakdown. Describe that.
Yeah, So I was in grad school at the time. I am learning to be a therapist, and I was married, I was part of the community. I was doing really well in grad school, and I feel like I was getting patted on the back by society truly, And he was like, Wow, what an example. And you know, I'd have friends be like, if only you know, I had my shit together, Like you, and it was so fascinating to me because I would have like panic attacks in my car and they would be saying these things to me, and I was like, I really don't wish that upon you. And there was a point in my twenties when, right before the panic attacks happened, I was having a drink with a friend and he asked me a super simple question. He just said, are you happy? Because we haven't seen each other for a while, we haven't seen each other since graduating college. And he's like, you're doing all these amazing things, like, but are you happy? And I think no one's asked me that truly. I think people will go, oh my god, she must be happy. There was an expectation, there was an imposition, and you're not gonna be like, no, actually I'm not. For the most part, you'd be like, yeah, of course, things are so great. And as someone who came from my background, I felt so ungrateful, not loving my current life. I felt like I a should just cherish it, like wow, I was in Vancouver, I was in grad school, like so many people don't get these opportunities. What is wrong with me? And he asked me this question, and until that point I think my defenses were up, and I think it's the moment where I couldn't cope anymore. And I don't know if you've experienced that moment, but it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. And he asked me this question, and I started just crying in this restaurant bar. And until that point, I haven't really cried in front of it anyone. I haven't really shown emotion in front of anyone. I was very private. I was very detached from my emotions. And I remember stumbling to the bathroom to like gather myself and looking in a mirror and not recognizing the person I was looking at, like she looked hollow, she didn't feel like she represented me. And I think the worst part of it is that I generally hated her. Like I looked at her and I went, I hate you. This is all your fault. And then the next day, actually after that experience, I was like amazing, profound, you know, I was training to be a therapist. I was like, this must be one of those life changing moments, but like, wow, I did it. It's over, and I like went to my hotel room ordered a burrito, and watched friends and was like patting myself on the back that like, the worst is over. No, it was only the next day that I like, no, yeah, it just got so much worse for years after that. I had my first panic attack the next morning on a flight. I think it's kind of fascinating to reflect on it now that even when my body was starting to show me signs like something's not okay, I still was in a And then I had a panic attack, and I was still in denial, Like the denial was so strong for such a long time that I did not want to admit that I was unhappy and that I didn't want my life. And then that took months before I fully quote unquote crashed. And then was like what now.
So to some degree, you chose that life, right. You chose to go to college, you chose to go to grad school for psychology. You're still in that field today, right, So what was it about that life that felt so profoundly wrong? Because it's different than your life now. But it's not like you went from being a psychologist to a deep sea dive baker, right, you know, where you just like completely like I just was in the wrong thing. Man, Yeah, So what was it looking back that you think felt so wrong.
Yeah, that's such a good question. On's actually asked me that it wasn't that things themselves were wrong. It was that my relationship to those things were wrong. And it's kind of fascinating. It's the fact that I made choices based on what I thought I should do rather than what I actually wanted to do. The only thing that remained from that time in my life is psychology, okay. And I think there was a deep level of shame that I was going through this while learning how to help others, because I felt like I was so broken. How could I possibly be abused to anyone but my friendships at the time, I would say ninety nine percent of them, my marriage, all of those things ended. And I think relationships are a really important part of our life. I think they are enough to make you not like your life if they're not right. And I think I kept choosing relationships with people who wouldn't see me because I didn't want to be seen. And I think I didn't want to be seen because I didn't know who I was and I was scared what they would find. And it's not that I am blaming any of those types of relationships that I had with people from plutonic to romantic during my twenties. It's more that I just kept choosing individuals that would maintain my self preservation. And it really is hard to have a genuine connection with people when you're not authentic. And so I think I was unhappy about relationships mostly, and then the relationship with myself was the biggest thing I was unhappy about.
So a lot of the book is talking about something that you call self loss. Would you say, is our failed responsibility to be our self? So talk to me a little bit about what self loss is and what the process is, and then we can move from there into starting to and I'm going to use your word again here, discover ourselves.
Sure. Yeah, self loss to me is not just an authenticity, and in the authenticity to me is knowing what is right and not doing it, not listening to that inner voice. And the difference I have kind of a metaphor I use in the book is when you're diving, and you can tell I've never done that. When you're diving, when you're an authentic you're like, Okay, the surface is up there, and I know exactly how far off I am, and like I will swim in the dark, but I am pretty sure that when I need to take my next breath, I can reach the surface and take a breath of life and feel this aliveness, feel the sense of self amazing. When you're lost, it's like you started to swim, you got disoriented, there was a riptide whatever it is, and now you go, I'm completely into darkness. I'm running out of air. I need to swim to the surface, but I don't know which direction the surface is. I don't know when I'm going to take my next breath. And that was the experience of being lost, of like I don't know how I'm going to keep myself alive, and I don't know where my next breath of life is going to come from, and there are no indicators. There is no glimmering light that is like pointing me to my way home, you know, because you're always like, listen to your inner self, that quiet voice. It will guide you back. And I love it. But what if you don't hear the voice? And to me, that is self loss.
I have lots of thoughts on hearing that interior voice, and I love that analogy. So, if we're talking about self loss, what is the thing that we lose? When you say self, what do you mean?
Yeah, so the ly sexy definition of self of all time, it is not your inner child, It is not a profound spiritual awakening. To me, the self is an accumulation, a combination of choice, freedom, and responsibility, and the self is constantly fluid, constantly changing, constantly evolving. It's a process of being, of becoming. And so when I say you lose yourself, you lose the ability of sensing that freedom, you lose sight of that responsibility, you lose connection with those choices, and then you stop creating the self. And if you don't create the self, it doesn't exist without you, which I think we can get into the discovery versus finding. But if the self is perpetually created and you stop creating, that's why you lose. The nothingness of being essentially is what remains?
Is it possible? Though, I'm not debating that self loss in the way you're describing it is a thing. Yeah, But if our self is something that is constantly being created by our choices largely and the freedom, maybe we're not acknowledging it. But it's inherent that we're choosing. I mean, aren't we creating a self at all times? To some degree? Isn't there an element of the fact that we are continuing to make choices now how out of alignment they are with this thing we want.
To call self.
Is we're still creating this thing as it goes.
Yeah?
And then my side question is I love that definition. And it seems that there is a part of our self that might be behind some of those freedom choices and responsibilities, meaning it's the conditioning that we have picked up as our life has gone on. What I choose to be responsible about, or the actions or choices that I make is coming from the fact that I've had a suite of experiences that have brought me to this point. So that wasn't even a very well formed question, any part of it, But I'm going to pass it by question.
I love it, okay so much in there I'm like, oh my god. So the first point is an excellent one. You're always creating a sense of self always, and either that's going to be an authentic sense of self, which I call the capital S. And what makes that different is that your decisions aligne with your morals, your ethics, your values. They also represent the way you see yourself and who you want to become. So it's a little more complex than just like you make a choice that feels right, yay, there's a lot in there, right yeah, and then if you keep going, because I must see it as like you're constantly moving forward. There is no middle ground. You're always either being authentic or an authentic. An authenticity is when you're not aligning with your morals or values, or expressing yourself in the way that you see yourself, or not going towards a person you want to become. It is not that sense of home, it is not that sense of resonance. And I think you end up creating very inauthentic sense of self. And if you push far enough, you might feel self loss. But I think a lot of people spend a lot of their time in the inauthentic self. It's not that they don't have a self, they just don't have the self they like or that resonates or that truly represents their values, ethics, and so on. So I hope that that answers the question. So when we talk about freedom in existentialism, at least from what I understand and like I speak for all existentialists worldwide, is not that there's no limitation to freedom. We all have limits. Freedom comes with limits. I cannot be taller than I am, I cannot have different birth parents than I do. I cannot change anything that's happened to me in the past. So there is limitations to how we were raised to what has happened to us. That being said, I think the freedom of choice still remains, and that's something that people can debate and do debate. Now, are you more like to do things because they were modeled to you, because you were exposed to just turn an environment? Absolutely? Does it mean though, that when you have that consciousness and awareness of those patterns, that you can't change them. I would say you can. And so I think the cool thing about the self is it's like the necessities, the givens, which is the limitations and the possibility. This is something so many philosophers speak about, and the possibility is cool. I think it was Speaker Guard who said you can't look in a mirror and go this is who I am. You can look in a mirror and go this is who I am right now in this very moment, and that just alludes to the fact that you're perpetually becoming. And I don't think that our past defines our future. I would be very sad if that was true, and I think I would have a very hard time practicing as a psychotherapist. I do think it informs I think it gives us hurdles, But I still think that we are responsible if there is a cycle. If there is, you know, things that have happened to us and impacted us to a degree, whatever degree is possible, it is our responsibility to fight it. And sometimes we can and sometimes we can't. But all we can do is shop for ourselves.
Yeah, I agree with everything you have said there. I think that choices are constrained, but there's always a choice within whatever those constraints are, there always is some degree of choice. I mean, yeah, I don't know if he would be considered an existentialist thinker, right, but I think that's why Victor Frankel's work is so inspiring, because he was showing that even in a situation like a concentration camp, we're literally all freedom more or less had been taken from him, he still had some He still had some choice in the midst of that. So I believe we always have some degree of choice, but there are different constraints. I think what I'm driving at more and it's probably because I'm working on a book and I'm fighting with this chapter, and I'm talking about the idea of motivational complexity, meaning there's lots of things going on inside of us, lots of different things we want, different things that we think we might value, and trying to figure out which of those are mine and which of those are imposed from the outside. I think is a tricky business, right because even the ones that I think are mind again, didn't arise in a vacuum. It's almost as if I'm going through all the different things that I could choose and picking which ones most resonate with who I think I want to be. Is it really just kind of that simple? Am I over complicating this?
I mean, I'm sure if you asked therapists, many therapists would have many different responsors. As an existential therapist, I would say, I think life is arbitrary. I think the one idea that I had to unlearn is that there was a wrong and right way to live your life, or that there was just a wrong and right way to do anything, obviously within reasons. I'm not talking about like harming individuals right talking about it here is like okay, so maybe some of your motivations came from here or there, or your past or things that weren't so great, or maybe they were modeled by the most amazing individuals in your life. I don't know if it fully matters. I do think sometimes it's truly as simple as like, which do I want to keep carrying? Which ones are the building blocks of who I become? Do they resonate with my sense of morality that I have right now? And I think it's just about choosing who you want to be in that moment. Some will not agree. I think to myself, like, why did I want to become a therapist? Did that come from some deep rooted trauma? Did it come because I saw a therapists on TV and was like, wow, they're really successful? I don't know. Did I think it was just so cool to have a cozy office? Like what was it? And I think at some point the initial reason might not matter. What matters is for you to know your reasoning now, to know your why now, to know your meaning right now? And I think that meaning and reasoning is also going to evolve, and that's okay.
Yeah, I think that's a really great way of simplifying, which is I can get lost in trying to go what's the real me in all this versus just sort of as you said, like, this is my best guess as of right now, right now with what I can see. An analogy just came to mind, which is in twelve step programs, there's something called step four where you sort of reflect. They call it a searching and fearless moral inventory, which basically means you're looking at what things have happened in your past that have become who you are, and you're largely looking for things that are going to get in your way. And people will always be really worried and say, well, what if I'm missing something? And my answer always was, if you can't remember it, it's probably not what's eating your lunch enough right now that it's going to cause you to pick up a drink. Yeah, more maybe, but today, don't sweat that because you can't see it, and it's not the thing that's causing you so much angst that you're drinking. Yeah, And so I think applying that to what you said, more may be revealed. There may be hidden motivations and underlying things that I don't yet understand. And I am defined by my freedom, choices, and responsibility, and so I'm gonna have to make those. What's the best version of those I can make today based on what I know about myself today?
Yeah? I love that so much. What a great summary. Now, I say, people will come to me and be like, Sarah, what is the right choice?
Yeah?
Should I do this? Or should I do that? You know all the time, And obviously I don't make the choices for them, and I go the right choice is the choice you want to take responsibility for.
Wow, that's a great answer.
The choice you're willing to take responsibility for. That to me is the ultimate choice. And so that's how I answer that question.
The one that you want to take responsibility. That's great because I get part way there, which is I'm always like, well, there isn't a right choice, right, You just make the best one you can, and there's going to be some good things about it, and there's gonna be some less good things. And if you've chosen that, there's gonna be some good things and less good things and will never know the difference. Make the best choice you can make. But I love that idea of framing it as the one that you could take responsibility for, or that you're willing to take responsibility for.
Yeah, And I think sometimes my hesitation with some of the mainstream psychology concepts that have become so popular is that there's so much emphasis on the past to help the person I think understand why they are in the place that they are, which I mean that is so helpful and so needed. But if that's all you do, that's not the full work at that point. That is just the spremeboard. That is just the foundation from which now you go. Okay, now I make choices, responsibility, and now I do all these things. And so I think we forget that and here's how we define you because of all the things I've happened to you, and we stop. And I actually think that's really just empowering to individuals because that's not their full story. Right.
Well, it's a lovely idea that if I could just understand why I am the way I am, that I would simply stop being that person. That's a lovely idea. It falls into the category of three steps to perfect abs right, because it gets us to the point where you're right. You still have to then, with your new knowledge, be conscious enough to keep choosing the thing that you want to choose. And it's going to be hard to choose it, very possibly because it goes against the grain of what you've chosen so many times before. Absolutely, I love so much of your work because it really gets to this core idea of this is the phrase I wanted to find small meaningful decisions reveal who we are more than big existential questions. And that's kind of what we're talking about here, right. This is a different version of that, which is I may know that I'm the way I am because of these things that happened in my childhood, but it's the small meaningful decisions that I make that are actually going to reverse that chain of events, not just knowing about it.
Absolutely, and I think we want to categorize things. We want very static goals, and what I mean by that is also like we want one meaning. We want there to be this answer of like who am I? And it's like this clear answer you want, like what in my meaning of life? If you want the clear answer? And what I'm saying here is like stop seeking for those big answers. Answer it by the way you live your life, because I always say the answer to who am I? Is never verbal? Whenever I do this activity with people, no one can answer the question who am I without listing hobbies, roles, relationship status, and that is not who you are. The answer to who am I? Can only be shown by the way you live your life. That is it, and that's what I'm talking about. It's like that being proactive, choosing meaningful things every single day, and at the end of your life, I think you're going to be able to answer the question of like, what was my meaning of life? And why am I here? More so than sitting here and being like why am I here? What am I meant to do? If the one thing that's going to make me feel super fulfilled from twenty to sixty? And honestly, I think if your meaning doesn't change and evolve with who you are, you're probably not actually being aligned with your meaning because I think meaning is very tightly associated and linked with your sense of identities. So what was really meaningful to you when you were twenty is probably going to change when you're forty, And so I think we're so scared of the undefined, the fluid, and we really tried to, as you said, like find these concrete answers and kind of be rigid in our existence when I think existence is a bit absurd and cao and messy, and that's the point of it. And it's finding beauty and structure within all of that that I think makes us feel really empowered and like ourselves.
So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one hundred and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. In essence, you just sort of said a minute ago that what we do shows who we are. I believe that to a certain degree. And there's an idea. In psychology, a theory is called revealed preferences, meaning that if you show what you do, I can tell you what you value. But I'm not sure I agree with that, and I'll tell you why. Let's go back fifteen years and I was drinking at that point, and I had a son and I would pick him up from school, I would take him to soccer practice, and then I would go have two or three drinks at the bar. Now that's a terrible thing to do, right, I had all kinds of justifications for it, right, So on one level, yes, it showed that on some level I was valuing getting drunk over my son's well being. So on one level, that is true. And yet I don't think that's who I was. I think that was an aberration of who I was that was being caused by my inability for a host of reasons, a complex syndrome of reasons that manifested an addiction. So talk to me about this relationship between Like, the way I'm acting doesn't feel like the person I want to be. If I look at my actions, I would conclude that I'm a terrible person. But that may not be the case. Yeah, talk to me about reconciling those things.
Wow. Yeah, it's such a good question. So let's say that I yelled on my partner today, which I did. Let's say that I did, and I have the logic of how you showed up in the moment is who you are, And I also understand the backstory of why I may have yelled at my partner. Okay, so all of these things are present. I would say that in that moment of yelling at my partner there is no other self because self has to be expressed, and yet I was expressing it inauthentic self. Okay, you know, I think it's important to know that there is no self without expression, because otherwise it's just thoughts. And I think we're often startled by who we think we are versus what our actions show us.
Uh huh.
Now, I think addiction is a little bit of a tricky topic in terms of this, and we can, you know, we can circle back to addiction in particular, especially if we're talking about free will. But I think what happens oftentimes is we don't want to admit to ourselves that, yeah, that is who I am in this moment. I'm not saying this is who I am all the time overall. I'm saying, this is who I am in this moment. And let me tell you, I do not the person I am in this moment. I think if the self is not expressed, it's not truly the self in my opinion. That being said, I think we express inauthentically a lot of the time, and so being able to go like, hey, this is how I am showing up, this is how I'm expressing it does not feel authentic, but I can't pretend it's not how I'm showing up in the world. It is the only expression I am putting out there, and it's one I don't like. Okay, so how do I change that?
It's an interesting idea that the only self that actually exists is the one that is expressing in that moment. It's so weird because we can look at things like I might snap at my partner because I'm hungry Hotually, yeah, Snickers has done a great job of making these hilarious commercials. You know, there's one where Godzilla is like playing volleyball and going to a party and then he gets hungry and he starts rampaging through cities and you give them a Snickers bar, and he's back to good times, Godzilla. And so you recognize that even these very basic physiological things, by what you're saying, those are part of the self that is expressing. Is that the way you would say it is that those things are part of that self in that moment.
In that moment, yeah, And in that moment, you can recognize that you didn't feed yourself when you first had the queue of hunger, or maybe you have a really bad headache, which is in your fault, and you realize that your expression is encompassing the physiological pain. Now, it's not your fault that you're in pain, but you're expressing it, and maybe you're disappointed with yourself, and that means you can give yourself some grace because you know you have this pain. But how is it not you? Is my question? In what other alternate reality do you exist? How is it not you? Is it my question?
Yeah, in this sense of all of this being an ongoing process, which you refer to in lots of different ways, which I really like you say that most of us are hoping for a one time journey of discovery rather than a lifetime of responsibility. Say more about that.
Yeah, I think we all hope that one day we're gonna journal, or walk out of a therapy session or put down a self help book and be like, I get it, this is me, this is it.
And I truly truly wish that was the answer. I wish my book can do that. I wish you just like walked away, be like I have it forever. I'm done, I'm cured. This is the promise. And I couldn't make that promise in my book, I couldn't, and I think it's because what we want is an answer, but what we truly get is a lifetime of responsibility. I think that's what my book gave you, was like a lifetime of respect sponsibility that hopefully will feel empowering and meaningful. But that's all it is is life is thousands, millions, trillions of decisions that you're responsible for. Yeah, that will create who you are.
It's probably why I liked it so much, right, because it doesn't offer easy answers. And I'm always suspicious of easy answers.
Yeah, me too.
I don't think they're real because life isn't easy and it is this ongoing challenge, and so talk about how can we embrace that in a way that feels empowering versus feeling overwhelmed by it.
Yeah, I think we're going to feel both. I think we're going to feel empowered and overwhelmed by it and think as long as we know what to expect, it's okay. It will make us feel like we're doing something wrong. And I think the biggest issue is the way we see responsibility as a society. Like I used to think responsibility it was about blaming. It's like, who's taking the blame for this one? It's not me? And I think there's such a big distinction there of my relationship to responsibility really had to change before I was willing to embrace it, and I went to responsibility means I am free, and that is so so liberating to me. I think it's empowering. If I had no freedom to change my life, I would not be responsible for it. You're not going to yell at a pilot because a cake got destroyed at a bakery, like he was not baking it, he was not there, Like he had nothing to do with it, Like it makes no sense. But you are probably going to make the person who baked the cake bake it again because they were a responsibility for it not working out, or they were responsible for it not I don't know coming out the right way. And so that's my thing of like when we feel responsible, it's interesting to go, hah, where's my freedom? Where is my participation? Okay?
Cool?
How can I empower myself and and make this a pivot towards making a decision. I want being a little closer to who I want to be, And so I think you can't have freedom without responsibility, and you can't have responsibility without freedom, And I think just combining those two makes responsibility an easier pill to swallow, and then just realizing that it sucks, like there is no like. Of course, it sucks that you have to be responsible for the reason you said something or did something, or your email is late, like of course, no one loves it, but it is also the reason why you get to create yourself. And I think that that's really cool.
Yeah, it is one of those things that on one hand can feel overwhelming, but on the other hand, the flip side of it is also an awful feeling. Yeah, and you feel like you have to do something. That is an awful feeling. I think often about how for a lot of us we get to feeling awful because we keep thinking we have to do things. And it goes back to what you originally said. It wasn't necessarily the things in your life, although that was part of it.
It was your.
Relationship to those things. And I think that in our day to day life, we have this relationship to things. Things that we did choose we now think are have tos and when we can recognize that we did choose it. That's so powerful, and I'm choosing to do it again. You know, I don't have to do this with my children. I'm choosing to do it because it matters to me. I don't have to go to work today. I'm choosing to go to work today because of these things. It's a very liberating feeling. It gives you back a sense of agency.
Yeah, oh, I love that. And I think it's when choices get perceived as obligation. I see this relationships and marriage all the time. It becomes something you have to do. It's an obligation. You chose to get married. And how we say your relationship is a daily, daily choice. It is a daily choice, and that is the only way to press serve it being a free, safe space for you. Otherwise it's none of these things. And otherwise you don't actually feel that responsible for it because you don't feel like you really have the freedom to be in it or not or how to be in it or not. And so I think it's really important to keep reintroducing of like, just because you've made the same choice over and over and over and over again, it does not mean it stopped being a choice. You stopped seeing it as a choice, yes, but the choice still remains.
So I am in a relationship and I choose that I want to be in it, but there may be things within that broad choice that I don't really necessarily always want to do. How do we frame up this sort of momentary passing things that come through us, these desires or whatever to act in a certain way. So honoring the fact that we continue to make choices, but not living only in a sense of like I'm just doing what I feel like doing right now.
I think choices come with responsibility, Okay, so not profound consequences. Also, choices come with consequences. So if you're going to choose to be in a monogamous relationship, you might not love that every day, you might not love that when someone you have an attraction with someone, But your choice came with consequences, which was limitation of freedom. Now you ultimately have the choice to walk away if you want to. That's still technically there. But if you want to honor your initial choice, you're going to have to handle the consequences of not pursuing something that maybe you want to be pursued. So I think we just have to always go back to what was the initial choice and what are all the consequences that come which might take away some other choices. When you make one choice, other choices get taken away. Yes, so how do you balance that and which one do you take responsibility for? It's not so much. I think authenticity has also gone a bad rep where it's like what feels good? What do I want to do in this moment? And it's like, that's not what we're talking about. That's not really the definition of authenticity. It's like, well, I just wanted to sleep with this person. He felt right. It's like that must have been super authentic. It's like what And if you look at a hidigger miRNA Heidegger, who's a philosopher who coined the term authenticity, the little translation is to own oneself ownedness. What does that sound like?
Ownership?
Yeah, ownership and showing up in a way that you said you would. That feels aligned. And so for me, I think we just forget that one choice eliminates others and you just have to commit to a choice that you're making, even if all the little consequences don't always tickle your fancy and don't always allow you to express every desire and drive and curiosity that you have.
I love that. I had lots of thoughts on when you earlier were talking about like just go with your gut, and you just sort of hit it there, like it just felt right, you know, I just felt right to cheat on my wife. So as a former addict, I have a certain lens on the world, but I can tell you that every time I got high, on some level, it felt very right. You know, it also felt very wrong, which is why I'm like, well, I'm just not sure that I'm like a trust your gut all the time kind of person unless you've cultivated that thing.
Yes, yes, thank you. No, I'm so glad we went back to that point. I think rightness is built. It's like you have earned the right to trust that feeling. Because that feeling has been aligned, those decisions have been aligned. You will start to make decisions that honor who you are and who you want to be. And then you're going to have a sensation. And after you have that sensation enough times, you're going to be able to use it as part of your decision making. Not all of your decision making, but I think you're going to get that sense of like rightness, that sense of home, that sense of I can live with myself, I can look at myself in the mirror. I'm okay with that. It is not just like wow, that feels so good. That is not what I mean by like feels like home, feels right. That feels good is not the same thing.
So listener and thinking about all that and the other great wisdom from today's episode. If you're going to isolate just one top insight that you're taking away, what would it be? Not your top ten, not the top five?
Just one?
What is it? Think about it? Got it? Now? I ask you, what's one tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little thing you can do today to put it in practice? Or maybe just take a baby step towards it. Remember, little by little, a little becomes a lot. Profound change happens as a result of aggregated tiny actions, not massive heroic effort. If you're not already on our Good Wolf Reminder SMS list, I'd highly recommend it as a tool you can leverage to remind you to take those vital baby steps forward. You can get on there at oneufeed dot net slash SMS. It's totally free, and once you're on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently shared to give you an idea of the type of stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless. Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what, keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe. If you want to get in, I'd love to have you there. Just go to oneufeed dot net, slash SMS all right back to it. I often think of it as it feels like, and I always make this hand gesture when I do it. It feels like internally things are aligned. Wow. It is a subtly good feeling.
You know.
It's not a like ooh, you know when that's not the case. My poor dog tour or ACL and I didn't know this until recently, but basically what the ACL does is it keeps your phibia antibia from doing this like basically going opposite directions from each other. Wow. When that happens inside of us, it feels really loud and we know that, right, So that internal alignment, again subtle, but really to me one of the best feelings in life.
Yeah, it's almost like it clicks. I don't know if you have ever like something that clicks and it's like a satisfy and you're like it clicked into place and you're like your phone case or something. You're like, you're like ah, And I think I like that you emphasize the fact that it is not a thrill or excitement necessarily. It's a very it's satisfaction, I think is the closest sort of It's a feeling that I would come to contentment. It's like, you're not gonna sometimes like what comes out of this alignment. It might be like, shoot, I have to apologize. You're not gonna always feel excited when there is that alignment in your decision, but you're gonna feel that satisfaction of being authentic. And that's almost like that click that happens you're like ah, and then it helps you deal with all the other stuff that comes to the consequence.
Yeah. So I think that is a great place for us to wrap up. I could talk to you for much longer, and I am going to get the chance to talk to you for a little longer in our post show conversation listeners. If you'd like access to the post show Conversation, to add free episodes, all sorts of other good things, and to be part of what we're doing here and joining our community, go to oneufeed dot net slash Join Sarah. Thank you so much. This has really been a treat.
Thank you so much for having me. It was such a fun conversation and you really got me to think about a lot of things in a very interesting way. So thank you.
You're welcome.
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