The body will always move in the direction of healing and clarification of its own systems when in the presence of the right conditions.

The body will always move in the direction of healing and clarification of its own systems when in the presence of the right conditions.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ralph deay La Rosa, an internationally published author of books about meditation, trauma, and internal family systems. He's a mentee of Richard Schwartz and advanced meditation trainee of Jack Cornfield, and has been teaching for over fifteen years. Ralph is also a trauma focused psychotherapist in private practice whose work has been featured in Tricycle, The Ramdas Fellowship, CNN, New York Post, Refinery twenty nine, Women's Health, and GQ.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ralph deay La Rosa, an internationally published author of books about meditation, trauma, and internal family systems. He's a mentee of Richard Schwartz and advanced meditation trainee of Jack Cornfield, and has been teaching for over fifteen years. Ralph is also a trauma focused psychotherapist in private practice whose work has been featured in Tricycle, The Ramdas Fellowship, CNN, New York Post, Refinery twenty nine, Women's Health, and GQ.

Good to be back.

Good to be back.

It's lovely to have you on. You and I have talked a lot since we last talked on the podcast, and are even teaching a workshop together, so I'm excited to have you on and just have some of the conversations we've been having and share them with people who are listening. So we'll get into all that in a minute, but we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, look up at their grandparent and say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

It's lovely to have you on. You and I have talked a lot since we last talked on the podcast, and are even teaching a workshop together, so I'm excited to have you on and just have some of the conversations we've been having and share them with people who are listening. So we'll get into all that in a minute, but we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, look up at their grandparent and say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, our attention is the most valuable commodity on the planet. Corporations are spending untold billions on capturing our attention because they know that wherever our attention goes, it's like a magnifying glass. And what we focus on is what our neurology is building and bringing more of into our lives. And so, yeah, what we feed in our lives is what is going to grow and prosper and thrive. And we have some choices. We don't have a lot of choices with regards to what comes our way much of the time, I think, as we all learned through the pandemic, really, but we always have a choice where we place our attention, the attitude that we choose, and how we relate to things. And that's actually quite empowering to realize.

Yeah, our attention is the most valuable commodity on the planet. Corporations are spending untold billions on capturing our attention because they know that wherever our attention goes, it's like a magnifying glass. And what we focus on is what our neurology is building and bringing more of into our lives. And so, yeah, what we feed in our lives is what is going to grow and prosper and thrive. And we have some choices. We don't have a lot of choices with regards to what comes our way much of the time, I think, as we all learned through the pandemic, really, but we always have a choice where we place our attention, the attitude that we choose, and how we relate to things. And that's actually quite empowering to realize.

Yeah, I love that very basic sort of interpretation, right, which is kind of what the parable speaks to so directly, you know that our choice is about where we put our thoughts, where we put our energy, our actions, they all matter. So I thought maybe we would start talking a little bit about the role of nature in our lives and the role of nature as a healing practice, because that's the heart of the workshop that we're going to be teaching this summer at Cripalu. And I think it would be nice to explain why does that feel important to us? Why is that something we wanted to do versus any other kind of workshop.

Yeah, I love that very basic sort of interpretation, right, which is kind of what the parable speaks to so directly, you know that our choice is about where we put our thoughts, where we put our energy, our actions, they all matter. So I thought maybe we would start talking a little bit about the role of nature in our lives and the role of nature as a healing practice, because that's the heart of the workshop that we're going to be teaching this summer at Cripalu. And I think it would be nice to explain why does that feel important to us? Why is that something we wanted to do versus any other kind of workshop.

Yeah. I mean, first of all, there's that powerful moment in the Buddhist story right where he's being tempted by you know, the personification of evil for lack of a better term in Buddhism, the demon Godmara, when the chips are really down and Mara throws his last temptation at the Buddha, which was really an assault on his worthiness and his self esteem and his sense of self love and his sense of deserving to awaken the But have put his hand on the earth and just said, you know, the earth is my witness, I have a right to this awakening. He didn't say much more than that. He didn't say you know, the earth is a living being, et cetera. He just placed one hand on the earth and that was enough. The confidence that came from his relationship to the earth was enough to overcome this great challenge. And I think we saw city folk en mass retreat to the woods, to the mountains, to the beaches, in so many different parts of the world during the pandemic, and I think we collectively had this realization that something about our connection to nature, which is inherent. We can have it even in the city, of course, But Bolster's resilience has everything to do with waking up, has everything to do with healing our hearts. So for me, I had that experience of fleeing the city and going to the beaches, going to the mountains, going to the woods, and very much felt affirmed by the experiences I was having out there.

Yeah. I mean, first of all, there's that powerful moment in the Buddhist story right where he's being tempted by you know, the personification of evil for lack of a better term in Buddhism, the demon Godmara, when the chips are really down and Mara throws his last temptation at the Buddha, which was really an assault on his worthiness and his self esteem and his sense of self love and his sense of deserving to awaken the But have put his hand on the earth and just said, you know, the earth is my witness, I have a right to this awakening. He didn't say much more than that. He didn't say you know, the earth is a living being, et cetera. He just placed one hand on the earth and that was enough. The confidence that came from his relationship to the earth was enough to overcome this great challenge. And I think we saw city folk en mass retreat to the woods, to the mountains, to the beaches, in so many different parts of the world during the pandemic, and I think we collectively had this realization that something about our connection to nature, which is inherent. We can have it even in the city, of course, But Bolster's resilience has everything to do with waking up, has everything to do with healing our hearts. So for me, I had that experience of fleeing the city and going to the beaches, going to the mountains, going to the woods, and very much felt affirmed by the experiences I was having out there.

Yeah, I've had similar experiences. I was reflecting a little bit on when did it start for me, me recognizing that nature was a key part of my life, And I think the fundamental time was It's probably about twenty years ago and I was ending my first period of sobriety. The wheels were starting to come off the terrain a little bit, and I was dating this woman and the relationship was very problematic, and she just had to be in and out and in and out, which is the perfect way to hook most anybody, right the intermittent reinforcement, and we were supposed to go to Washington d C one weekend and she just called me like two hours before we're getting on the plane. She's like, I'm gonna go, but I don't want you to go. I was like, oh, you know, kind of feeling heartbroken. I was like, you know what, I'm not going to sit around here all weekend. So I found this place in Hawking Hills and it was this little place where you could go and retreat. But it was very rustic, but not rustic in like you know farmhouse rustic that we see like on Instagram all the time. It was rustic like no running water, you know, no electricity, but it was yet somehow still really nice. And something about that weekend being there something in me healed in a way just being in nature, Like I didn't have to go, I wasn't talking to anybody, I wasn't doing anything except just being there. But there was something about that quiet and that natural surrounding that I just felt so much better. And it was really a turning point for me where I went, oh, I've kind of overlooking what's right in front of me all these years.

Yeah, I've had similar experiences. I was reflecting a little bit on when did it start for me, me recognizing that nature was a key part of my life, And I think the fundamental time was It's probably about twenty years ago and I was ending my first period of sobriety. The wheels were starting to come off the terrain a little bit, and I was dating this woman and the relationship was very problematic, and she just had to be in and out and in and out, which is the perfect way to hook most anybody, right the intermittent reinforcement, and we were supposed to go to Washington d C one weekend and she just called me like two hours before we're getting on the plane. She's like, I'm gonna go, but I don't want you to go. I was like, oh, you know, kind of feeling heartbroken. I was like, you know what, I'm not going to sit around here all weekend. So I found this place in Hawking Hills and it was this little place where you could go and retreat. But it was very rustic, but not rustic in like you know farmhouse rustic that we see like on Instagram all the time. It was rustic like no running water, you know, no electricity, but it was yet somehow still really nice. And something about that weekend being there something in me healed in a way just being in nature, Like I didn't have to go, I wasn't talking to anybody, I wasn't doing anything except just being there. But there was something about that quiet and that natural surrounding that I just felt so much better. And it was really a turning point for me where I went, oh, I've kind of overlooking what's right in front of me all these years.

Yeah, and so if I can update my answer a little bit, yeah, I can share something very similar. So about six years ago, I was finishing my first book, The Monkeys a Messenger. My career was exploding right in front of me in ways that I'd never actually had conceived of or even asked for it to. And at the same time, I was going through all these profound traumas. My partner walked out on me, my sister died, and my personal life was like very very difficult, and my professional life was filled with like all this ease and satisfaction, and the dichotomy of that was kind of pulling me apart and the way I'd never experienced before. And simultaneous to that, I noticed, you know, I've become so focused on my career and I work from home. I see clients in my living room, I'm writing from home, and a lot of my life happens from home. And I realized, like, I kind of don't go outside as much anymore. What's beyond that, you know? Well, like I go outside to get on the train and go teach somewhere, or to get on a train and go to a restaurant and see friends, or get on a train and go to an art show or whatever. And simultaneous said that, I started asking myself when was the last time like I've had play in my life, just like simple, stupid, silly, pointless, no real purpose to it other than the thing itself kind of fun. And it's like, no, I'm a New Yorker. I go to dinner, That's what I do for fun, or maybe I go to a rock and roll show. But easy, childlike laughter wasn't a part of my life anymore either, and I really started to question that. And the first time I got taken to a rock climbing studio, which was around the same time, I said, oh, here it is. This is an adult playground. This is a bunch of grown adults hacking like childlike little beings on monkey bars, basically just having a blast and pushing themselves. And there's no point to this except for the thing itself. Yeah, and everything else in my life was so goal oriented and you know, just intentional and everything else, and here's this thing that is its own intention. And then that eventually took me to an outdoor rock climbing trip in Mexico, which really blew my doors off. Climbing in Chiappas and being introduced to just a different mode than I had grown so accustomed to in New York City. I'll never forget the first time I got to the very top of a double pitch wall that we climbed, that was at the top of this cave and overlooking this town of San Cristobal, and just going I'm one of the very few people who gets to see this, you know, being willing to go off it's cliche, but off the beaten path, and being willing to go, you know, down these start roads to these not well known places in nature. I'm actually getting to experience something special that you only get to experience this if you you've done this beautiful work to get up here. Something about that was so confidence inspiring, just put me back in touch with something really essential that I had been missing. I said it before. Our connection to nature is inherent, and so we have it even in the cities. We're always under the sky. But there's this piece around really being open, really being in that mindful state of receptivity to the forces of nature that it does things for us. It does things for us that I can't even describe.

Yeah, and so if I can update my answer a little bit, yeah, I can share something very similar. So about six years ago, I was finishing my first book, The Monkeys a Messenger. My career was exploding right in front of me in ways that I'd never actually had conceived of or even asked for it to. And at the same time, I was going through all these profound traumas. My partner walked out on me, my sister died, and my personal life was like very very difficult, and my professional life was filled with like all this ease and satisfaction, and the dichotomy of that was kind of pulling me apart and the way I'd never experienced before. And simultaneous to that, I noticed, you know, I've become so focused on my career and I work from home. I see clients in my living room, I'm writing from home, and a lot of my life happens from home. And I realized, like, I kind of don't go outside as much anymore. What's beyond that, you know? Well, like I go outside to get on the train and go teach somewhere, or to get on a train and go to a restaurant and see friends, or get on a train and go to an art show or whatever. And simultaneous said that, I started asking myself when was the last time like I've had play in my life, just like simple, stupid, silly, pointless, no real purpose to it other than the thing itself kind of fun. And it's like, no, I'm a New Yorker. I go to dinner, That's what I do for fun, or maybe I go to a rock and roll show. But easy, childlike laughter wasn't a part of my life anymore either, and I really started to question that. And the first time I got taken to a rock climbing studio, which was around the same time, I said, oh, here it is. This is an adult playground. This is a bunch of grown adults hacking like childlike little beings on monkey bars, basically just having a blast and pushing themselves. And there's no point to this except for the thing itself. Yeah, and everything else in my life was so goal oriented and you know, just intentional and everything else, and here's this thing that is its own intention. And then that eventually took me to an outdoor rock climbing trip in Mexico, which really blew my doors off. Climbing in Chiappas and being introduced to just a different mode than I had grown so accustomed to in New York City. I'll never forget the first time I got to the very top of a double pitch wall that we climbed, that was at the top of this cave and overlooking this town of San Cristobal, and just going I'm one of the very few people who gets to see this, you know, being willing to go off it's cliche, but off the beaten path, and being willing to go, you know, down these start roads to these not well known places in nature. I'm actually getting to experience something special that you only get to experience this if you you've done this beautiful work to get up here. Something about that was so confidence inspiring, just put me back in touch with something really essential that I had been missing. I said it before. Our connection to nature is inherent, and so we have it even in the cities. We're always under the sky. But there's this piece around really being open, really being in that mindful state of receptivity to the forces of nature that it does things for us. It does things for us that I can't even describe.

Yeah, and as we can hear in the background, you are currently back in the city Seattle, I believe.

Yeah, and as we can hear in the background, you are currently back in the city Seattle, I believe.

Right, Yes, living basically on the Bourbon Street of Seattle. So yeah, yeah, Tis and talks going by every once in a while.

Right, Yes, living basically on the Bourbon Street of Seattle. So yeah, yeah, Tis and talks going by every once in a while.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well.

Well.

One of the things I love about nature is, you know, we spend When I say we, I mean you and people who study with you, and those of us who are sort of in a mindfulness field in some way, right, we spend a lot of energy trying to be more present, more mindful, more attuned, more attentive. And that's all energy well spent. What I have found is that that all becomes easier in nature. Nature naturally draws our attention, at least does for me and many people in a very easy way. I'm not saying that it makes meditation easy. I'm just saying that a lot of the qualities that we're striving for, I think emerge more readily in me when I'm in nature. I mean, I've been trying to meditate on and off for twenty years. I struggled. I think I would have done much better in today's era, where there's teachers all over the place and apps. But you know, it's kind of oftened me and you know, the bookstore Buddhist kind of guy. But I struggled with breath practice. It was just challenging for me, and at some juncture I just heard somebody say, just go outside and listen, and so I started meditating outdoors every day. It was in a park in a city. There were city sounds, nature sounds, there was all of it. But it was just being there that really unlocked for me the joy of meditation that i'd heard people talking about that I had rarely touched. And so that's one of the things I love about, you know, going to nature, is that it just feels like it's easier for me to be attentive because there's so many lovely things to pull your attention.

One of the things I love about nature is, you know, we spend When I say we, I mean you and people who study with you, and those of us who are sort of in a mindfulness field in some way, right, we spend a lot of energy trying to be more present, more mindful, more attuned, more attentive. And that's all energy well spent. What I have found is that that all becomes easier in nature. Nature naturally draws our attention, at least does for me and many people in a very easy way. I'm not saying that it makes meditation easy. I'm just saying that a lot of the qualities that we're striving for, I think emerge more readily in me when I'm in nature. I mean, I've been trying to meditate on and off for twenty years. I struggled. I think I would have done much better in today's era, where there's teachers all over the place and apps. But you know, it's kind of oftened me and you know, the bookstore Buddhist kind of guy. But I struggled with breath practice. It was just challenging for me, and at some juncture I just heard somebody say, just go outside and listen, and so I started meditating outdoors every day. It was in a park in a city. There were city sounds, nature sounds, there was all of it. But it was just being there that really unlocked for me the joy of meditation that i'd heard people talking about that I had rarely touched. And so that's one of the things I love about, you know, going to nature, is that it just feels like it's easier for me to be attentive because there's so many lovely things to pull your attention.

Yeah, I think there's a piece here around the body. Honestly, as you were talking about intention and mindfulness and all of these things, right, like, we are so in our heads, We're so habituated in our heads. We live in a society that compels us to live from the shoulders up, and so our assumption when we start talking about intentionality, aspiration things like this, is it's mental. We have this cognitive approach so often too. Mindfulness, you know, and even loving kindness practice is so often presented as like a cognitive based thing. And for me, what I noticed that correlates with what you're saying about the ease of presence, the ease of insight, the ease of disentangling in nature is I'm pulled back to my body in nature. It's quite automatic. It's just, you know, all the energy that's ordinarily concentrated in the behive of the range is naturally kind of melt like a candle into that universe that exists below our shoulders that is so important and has everything. You know, the body is always present, it's our minds that are imagining we're in the past of the future. I come back to this again and again that our body is really made of the earth. You know, the cells of our bodies comprised of the food and the nutrients that we take in, which I don't know, maybe it's down to like ninety five to ninety nine percent of what we take in food wise actually comes from the earth. But it's it's earth stuff. Our cells are made of earth stuff. And so I think that there's a correlation there. It's pseudo scientific for me to say that, but I think there's a correlation there. Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's a piece here around the body. Honestly, as you were talking about intention and mindfulness and all of these things, right, like, we are so in our heads, We're so habituated in our heads. We live in a society that compels us to live from the shoulders up, and so our assumption when we start talking about intentionality, aspiration things like this, is it's mental. We have this cognitive approach so often too. Mindfulness, you know, and even loving kindness practice is so often presented as like a cognitive based thing. And for me, what I noticed that correlates with what you're saying about the ease of presence, the ease of insight, the ease of disentangling in nature is I'm pulled back to my body in nature. It's quite automatic. It's just, you know, all the energy that's ordinarily concentrated in the behive of the range is naturally kind of melt like a candle into that universe that exists below our shoulders that is so important and has everything. You know, the body is always present, it's our minds that are imagining we're in the past of the future. I come back to this again and again that our body is really made of the earth. You know, the cells of our bodies comprised of the food and the nutrients that we take in, which I don't know, maybe it's down to like ninety five to ninety nine percent of what we take in food wise actually comes from the earth. But it's it's earth stuff. Our cells are made of earth stuff. And so I think that there's a correlation there. It's pseudo scientific for me to say that, but I think there's a correlation there. Yeah.

Well, and much like meditation, in recent years, there is a wealth of scientific information that shows us how good being in nature really is for us. Right, So it's the sort of thing that for me, my experience confirms it, you know, and the science really confirms it too, that it benefits just even short amounts of time out in something resembling nature, even cortisol levels drop, blood pressure drops, immune cells get better. I just love when I can hear certain things correlated from multiple sources. It always just gives me a little more confidence, like, yeah, Okay, this feels like it's worth doing.

Well, and much like meditation, in recent years, there is a wealth of scientific information that shows us how good being in nature really is for us. Right, So it's the sort of thing that for me, my experience confirms it, you know, and the science really confirms it too, that it benefits just even short amounts of time out in something resembling nature, even cortisol levels drop, blood pressure drops, immune cells get better. I just love when I can hear certain things correlated from multiple sources. It always just gives me a little more confidence, like, yeah, Okay, this feels like it's worth doing.

It's in the traditions too, or should I say, in the traditions, and then the lineages that developed outside of the traditions as well, because you know, in Buddhism, and certainly in the more Hindu side of Eastern mysticism, in Eastern practice as well, we have the traditions that really flourished in monastic environments and insttions and what have you. We have those traditions, and then we have the yogic traditions, which the Buddha was really in so many ways, even though he initiated something that became more institutionalized and monastically oriented and what have you. You know, there was also these Yogis who went and practiced in the wild and practiced in the caves and didn't write things down and didn't want to be well known and remained rather hidden in what have you. We also have those traditions that the yogic practices and the mystic practices and what have you. I mean, from the east come from. And these are all folks who related and relied on nature and living in the uncertain circumstances of the wild to support their practice and just to bring it to like a more contemporary place. If you think about the asanas that you would do in just you know, any yoga class. Downward dog, pigeon pos and what have you. They're all named after animals.

It's in the traditions too, or should I say, in the traditions, and then the lineages that developed outside of the traditions as well, because you know, in Buddhism, and certainly in the more Hindu side of Eastern mysticism, in Eastern practice as well, we have the traditions that really flourished in monastic environments and insttions and what have you. We have those traditions, and then we have the yogic traditions, which the Buddha was really in so many ways, even though he initiated something that became more institutionalized and monastically oriented and what have you. You know, there was also these Yogis who went and practiced in the wild and practiced in the caves and didn't write things down and didn't want to be well known and remained rather hidden in what have you. We also have those traditions that the yogic practices and the mystic practices and what have you. I mean, from the east come from. And these are all folks who related and relied on nature and living in the uncertain circumstances of the wild to support their practice and just to bring it to like a more contemporary place. If you think about the asanas that you would do in just you know, any yoga class. Downward dog, pigeon pos and what have you. They're all named after animals.

I watch my dogs do upward and downward dog every day. Cracks me up right.

I watch my dogs do upward and downward dog every day. Cracks me up right.

Yeah, it's because it's about returning to this essential nature that has something to do with our inherent connection to the earth. Yeah, it seems to be synonymous with waking on them.

Yeah, it's because it's about returning to this essential nature that has something to do with our inherent connection to the earth. Yeah, it seems to be synonymous with waking on them.

So I'd like to shift directions a little bit because one of the things that you, in my mind, have really gone deeply into and teach about a lot is internal family systems. So I'm wondering if you could just maybe for people who don't know what that is. Just give a couple minute definition of what is internal family systems, and then I'd like to kind of explore in there a little bit and then maybe tie that back to some of what we've talked about, like the healing parts of nature.

So I'd like to shift directions a little bit because one of the things that you, in my mind, have really gone deeply into and teach about a lot is internal family systems. So I'm wondering if you could just maybe for people who don't know what that is. Just give a couple minute definition of what is internal family systems, and then I'd like to kind of explore in there a little bit and then maybe tie that back to some of what we've talked about, like the healing parts of nature.

So it seems to check out that anytime we have insights or truths about how the body works, we have a parallel insight and truth about how the psyche works. Because the two are intertwined. They're not really too there in a sense, both one, you know, and two at the exact same time. Right, Just like the body is comprised of parts. I'm holding up my hand and that's a part of my body, but it's still the body itself, so it's distinct from the body, and it is the body comprised of parts that form a dynamically interwoven system that functions very well to make my life happen. That's one way of describing the body. And there's a parallel truth in the psyche inside. You know, we have one mind, we have one personality, we could say, and also within that one mind, there are many different working parts of that mind, and there's many different sub personalities. This has been part of many different psychological lenses for a very long time. It hasn't been well accepted until recently because it makes it sound like you have multiple personality disorder, right to which I would say, well, there does seem to be twelve of me in here at times that all want different things, right.

So it seems to check out that anytime we have insights or truths about how the body works, we have a parallel insight and truth about how the psyche works. Because the two are intertwined. They're not really too there in a sense, both one, you know, and two at the exact same time. Right, Just like the body is comprised of parts. I'm holding up my hand and that's a part of my body, but it's still the body itself, so it's distinct from the body, and it is the body comprised of parts that form a dynamically interwoven system that functions very well to make my life happen. That's one way of describing the body. And there's a parallel truth in the psyche inside. You know, we have one mind, we have one personality, we could say, and also within that one mind, there are many different working parts of that mind, and there's many different sub personalities. This has been part of many different psychological lenses for a very long time. It hasn't been well accepted until recently because it makes it sound like you have multiple personality disorder, right to which I would say, well, there does seem to be twelve of me in here at times that all want different things, right.

Yeah, yeah, I think the part we could drop from that is the disorder part, right, Like, it's not a dis order that we have these different parts. I mean, even the parable of this show is talking to that. It's an oversimplification, right, that we have these parts inside of us. Right, it's boiling it down to a binary which isn't really accurate, but it reflects that angel on one shoulder, devil on the other shoulder. You know, I want to do this, I want to do that, but then another part of me wants to do this, and you know, all this roiling around inside of.

Yeah, yeah, I think the part we could drop from that is the disorder part, right, Like, it's not a dis order that we have these different parts. I mean, even the parable of this show is talking to that. It's an oversimplification, right, that we have these parts inside of us. Right, it's boiling it down to a binary which isn't really accurate, but it reflects that angel on one shoulder, devil on the other shoulder. You know, I want to do this, I want to do that, but then another part of me wants to do this, and you know, all this roiling around inside of.

Us exactly exactly. And once we start to see that, it opens up some very unique doorways for us. For one, we can start to think about the fact that, you know, just as the body is this living force, you know, again, this part of the body that I call my hand is also a living force. It has functions and kind of a character, if you will, and means of its own that might be distinct from the needs and the function and the character of oh they might liver right, just like that, the sub personalities inside of us are living forces. The mind is alive, We're alive, and so everything about us is alive. And internal family systems basically says, you know these parts of you inside, parts of you that maybe help you to function and wear the right mask in the right situations such as work versus being with friends. Parts of you that might hold your loneliness, your sadness, your traumas, if you will, at bay, so that they're not out all the time and you can function. Parts of you that step in when you get triggered or feel too much vulnerability somehow and you reach for something maybe to self medicate, or you get angry or you shut down. All of these different parts of you actually form an internal family. And just like with an external family, isn't it that in our literal families, you know, everybody wants the same things to feel heard, to feel like they matter, to be loved, fairness, justice, to be appreciated, and what have you. And so we have these parts of us inside that function very much like an internal family in that are we really listening this little thing called self love that has become so popular the last decade. Are we expressing love to these sub personalities inside right, such as the inner critic or the inner child? You know, when was the last time we actually listened to that part of us and tried to first? I guess see that we have a relationship. I can hate my inner critic, That's one kind of relationship. I can ignore my inner critic, that's another kind of relationship. I could also stop and listen and say, what's going on here? Why is this part of me like that? And what are they trying to accomplish? And does that part of me actually enjoy being that way or is it exhausting. We can enter into those kinds of conversations with ourselves, and when we do it from a place of compassion, which by the way, I think in a sense the earth really helps us to tap into in a natural way, And we could even say, you know, the earth holds a certain level of that compassionate, wakeful energy for us when we do this kind of self inquiry, when we enter into an internal engagement with these parts of ourselves from a place of compassion. What we find is that change starts to happen on its own rather easily, that the way these certain aspects of our personalities just naturally start to grow and evolve and start to give us flashes of insight and what have you in a manner that is often really surprising. And so that's just kind of a breakdown on ifs, and you know, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot of stages of healing that that process can bring one to. But what we find over and over again is that healing is actually possible, that permanent healing is actually possible, that transformation isn't actually so extraordinary. It's special, it's meaningful, don't get me wrong. But awakening is actually our birthright, and it's staring us right in the face.

Us exactly exactly. And once we start to see that, it opens up some very unique doorways for us. For one, we can start to think about the fact that, you know, just as the body is this living force, you know, again, this part of the body that I call my hand is also a living force. It has functions and kind of a character, if you will, and means of its own that might be distinct from the needs and the function and the character of oh they might liver right, just like that, the sub personalities inside of us are living forces. The mind is alive, We're alive, and so everything about us is alive. And internal family systems basically says, you know these parts of you inside, parts of you that maybe help you to function and wear the right mask in the right situations such as work versus being with friends. Parts of you that might hold your loneliness, your sadness, your traumas, if you will, at bay, so that they're not out all the time and you can function. Parts of you that step in when you get triggered or feel too much vulnerability somehow and you reach for something maybe to self medicate, or you get angry or you shut down. All of these different parts of you actually form an internal family. And just like with an external family, isn't it that in our literal families, you know, everybody wants the same things to feel heard, to feel like they matter, to be loved, fairness, justice, to be appreciated, and what have you. And so we have these parts of us inside that function very much like an internal family in that are we really listening this little thing called self love that has become so popular the last decade. Are we expressing love to these sub personalities inside right, such as the inner critic or the inner child? You know, when was the last time we actually listened to that part of us and tried to first? I guess see that we have a relationship. I can hate my inner critic, That's one kind of relationship. I can ignore my inner critic, that's another kind of relationship. I could also stop and listen and say, what's going on here? Why is this part of me like that? And what are they trying to accomplish? And does that part of me actually enjoy being that way or is it exhausting. We can enter into those kinds of conversations with ourselves, and when we do it from a place of compassion, which by the way, I think in a sense the earth really helps us to tap into in a natural way, And we could even say, you know, the earth holds a certain level of that compassionate, wakeful energy for us when we do this kind of self inquiry, when we enter into an internal engagement with these parts of ourselves from a place of compassion. What we find is that change starts to happen on its own rather easily, that the way these certain aspects of our personalities just naturally start to grow and evolve and start to give us flashes of insight and what have you in a manner that is often really surprising. And so that's just kind of a breakdown on ifs, and you know, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot of stages of healing that that process can bring one to. But what we find over and over again is that healing is actually possible, that permanent healing is actually possible, that transformation isn't actually so extraordinary. It's special, it's meaningful, don't get me wrong. But awakening is actually our birthright, and it's staring us right in the face.

Hey everyone, this is Jinny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots so much at the time, so to help with that. We've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something we're offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one ufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.

Hey everyone, this is Jinny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots so much at the time, so to help with that. We've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something we're offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one ufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.

What you just said there really resonated with me, which was just that call it what you want, healing, transformation, awakening, that these things are very much possible. And I think that's such an important message. The world's very different than it was. Oh God, how long ago was I a heroin addict, Like back in nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety five, Right, the world is a very different place. We're exposed to so much more than we ever were. But there was a phase there where I just thought, once an addict, always an addict, Right. That was a phrase that used to go around, you know, and that was a dark place to be. And it often seems when we are in the depths of whatever it is, addiction, trauma, whatever it is, that like you said that healing is for other people, or we can't do it. We've tried and it hasn't worked. And I just think that message over and over again of like, as they would say in AA, keep coming back. And I don't mean keep coming back to AA. I mean keep coming back to your own growth and healing and all that, because it is possible. And I just love how ordinary you make it sound, not that it's not deeply special, but it's not for people who are quote unquote different than us are special. It's for everybody.

What you just said there really resonated with me, which was just that call it what you want, healing, transformation, awakening, that these things are very much possible. And I think that's such an important message. The world's very different than it was. Oh God, how long ago was I a heroin addict, Like back in nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety five, Right, the world is a very different place. We're exposed to so much more than we ever were. But there was a phase there where I just thought, once an addict, always an addict, Right. That was a phrase that used to go around, you know, and that was a dark place to be. And it often seems when we are in the depths of whatever it is, addiction, trauma, whatever it is, that like you said that healing is for other people, or we can't do it. We've tried and it hasn't worked. And I just think that message over and over again of like, as they would say in AA, keep coming back. And I don't mean keep coming back to AA. I mean keep coming back to your own growth and healing and all that, because it is possible. And I just love how ordinary you make it sound, not that it's not deeply special, but it's not for people who are quote unquote different than us are special. It's for everybody.

I mean, to come back to the somatic lens in the body. If you think about it, the body doesn't hold on to things it doesn't need to hold on to, it doesn't want to. It doesn't hold on to illness. It wants to heal. It doesn't hold on to toxins. It naturally wants to detoxify. The body will always move in the direction of healing and clarification of its own systems when in the presence of the right conditions, that last piece is really important when in the presence of right conditions. Right, so, in the presence of further toxicity or things that perpetuate illness, you know, or bad nutrition for example, it's going to move in that direction. But place the body, you know, in alcoholizing environment, in a place where the proper nutrients and proper care is being administered and what have you, where the relaxation response can be triggered, and what have you. It naturally, in a parasympathetic state goes into tissue repair, detoxification, all of these things. The body, which I would say is related to the foundation of our very being, naturally wants to heal and naturally moves in the direction of healing on its own. And I mean this also comes back to the Earth and Nature conversation. It's like we're putting the body in the presence of these conditions that are very conducive to everything we aspire for on this path.

I mean, to come back to the somatic lens in the body. If you think about it, the body doesn't hold on to things it doesn't need to hold on to, it doesn't want to. It doesn't hold on to illness. It wants to heal. It doesn't hold on to toxins. It naturally wants to detoxify. The body will always move in the direction of healing and clarification of its own systems when in the presence of the right conditions, that last piece is really important when in the presence of right conditions. Right, so, in the presence of further toxicity or things that perpetuate illness, you know, or bad nutrition for example, it's going to move in that direction. But place the body, you know, in alcoholizing environment, in a place where the proper nutrients and proper care is being administered and what have you, where the relaxation response can be triggered, and what have you. It naturally, in a parasympathetic state goes into tissue repair, detoxification, all of these things. The body, which I would say is related to the foundation of our very being, naturally wants to heal and naturally moves in the direction of healing on its own. And I mean this also comes back to the Earth and Nature conversation. It's like we're putting the body in the presence of these conditions that are very conducive to everything we aspire for on this path.

Really, I love what you just said there, because I often hear that the body naturally moves towards healing. The psyche or the soul, whatever you want to call it, naturally moves towards healing. And I hear that, and I go, well, yeah, kind of sort of maybe, you know, but I can think of lots of cases where it just it doesn't appear to be moving that way. But the qualification you added there sort of brings it all home, which is under the right conditions, you know, you can't expect a psyche that is continually reinjured to be healing itself, right. It might be trying, but it's not going to be successful. The body is not going to be able to heal itself if it is exposed to this or that. And so I really love that framing because it does point out there is a natural inclination towards healing, and we have to be very conscious of the soil in which you know, we're planting those seeds. To use an overused analogy.

Really, I love what you just said there, because I often hear that the body naturally moves towards healing. The psyche or the soul, whatever you want to call it, naturally moves towards healing. And I hear that, and I go, well, yeah, kind of sort of maybe, you know, but I can think of lots of cases where it just it doesn't appear to be moving that way. But the qualification you added there sort of brings it all home, which is under the right conditions, you know, you can't expect a psyche that is continually reinjured to be healing itself, right. It might be trying, but it's not going to be successful. The body is not going to be able to heal itself if it is exposed to this or that. And so I really love that framing because it does point out there is a natural inclination towards healing, and we have to be very conscious of the soil in which you know, we're planting those seeds. To use an overused analogy.

Yeah, well, I mean it's the imperative of compassionate presence in terms of the psyche and psychological healing, healing, trauma and what have you. Compassionate presence is absolutely necessary, absolutely essential. There's no substitute for it in this world, in this society. You know that is just barely waking up to the reality of trauma, for example, and to so many other things. Getting compassionate presence in the right moments as well. It can be incredibly challenging. I can say a quick thing if you like, about neurobiology of tauma and how healing experiences work.

Yeah, well, I mean it's the imperative of compassionate presence in terms of the psyche and psychological healing, healing, trauma and what have you. Compassionate presence is absolutely necessary, absolutely essential. There's no substitute for it in this world, in this society. You know that is just barely waking up to the reality of trauma, for example, and to so many other things. Getting compassionate presence in the right moments as well. It can be incredibly challenging. I can say a quick thing if you like, about neurobiology of tauma and how healing experiences work.

Please.

Please.

Trauma's defined loosely kind of umbrella definition is any adverse experience we have where our defense systems are mobilized and then rendered useless. So you put in an adverse situation which fight flight gets triggered. All those intense neurochemicals are pumping and they have nowhere to go. And basically what we call trauma is a process that got started and didn't get a chance to complete itself. And the body again naturally wants to complete that process, but it gets stuck. Very much like records skipping. The record itself is designed for the song to move forward. The record player itself is trying to move the song forward, but something went wrong with the record, and so outside intervention is needed to get to the end of the song. And so when we have a traumatic experience, basically all these neurochemicals get consolidated into the body because not so much of what happened, but because the voice we didn't get to have, because what we didn't get to express because of the support we didn't receive because of the community we didn't have, because of the process that wasn't offered to us, or the awareness that wasn't offered to us, or whatever it was that we needed to complete the process. You know. So if you think to common traumatic experiences, you know, somebody didn't come to save us. Somebody didn't come in and speak up for us. Somebody didn't ask us what it was like later, Compassionate presence wasn't introduced into the situation, and that's what's really supposed to happen, and that's what causes the record to skip for us. But anytime we're triggered, anytime we're put in a situation where our woundedness comes out of vulnerability, comes out of reactivity, comes out those neurochemicals are alive and active in the system again. And there's what's called a window of reconsolidation. The experience that consolidated into the nervous system all of a sudden has a window where it's about to be reconsolidated. And what happens during that window really matters. If compassionate presence giving somebody a voice, giving somebody support, actually listening and affirming to somebody rather than giving advice and trying to fix things like this happen during the moment where that wound is exposed again, window of reconsolidation is open. Then when those neurochemicals reconsolidate into the body, they're going to have a different and more powerful influence intertwined with them. It's so bringing it back to the earth piece or the meditation piece. I mean, this is certainly the function of psychotherapy and why therapy works as well. We're opening up tender things in a compassionate space. There's a reason why when your heartbroken or feeling a little lost, going for a hike and taking your woundedness out to the woods often seems like just the thing to do.

Trauma's defined loosely kind of umbrella definition is any adverse experience we have where our defense systems are mobilized and then rendered useless. So you put in an adverse situation which fight flight gets triggered. All those intense neurochemicals are pumping and they have nowhere to go. And basically what we call trauma is a process that got started and didn't get a chance to complete itself. And the body again naturally wants to complete that process, but it gets stuck. Very much like records skipping. The record itself is designed for the song to move forward. The record player itself is trying to move the song forward, but something went wrong with the record, and so outside intervention is needed to get to the end of the song. And so when we have a traumatic experience, basically all these neurochemicals get consolidated into the body because not so much of what happened, but because the voice we didn't get to have, because what we didn't get to express because of the support we didn't receive because of the community we didn't have, because of the process that wasn't offered to us, or the awareness that wasn't offered to us, or whatever it was that we needed to complete the process. You know. So if you think to common traumatic experiences, you know, somebody didn't come to save us. Somebody didn't come in and speak up for us. Somebody didn't ask us what it was like later, Compassionate presence wasn't introduced into the situation, and that's what's really supposed to happen, and that's what causes the record to skip for us. But anytime we're triggered, anytime we're put in a situation where our woundedness comes out of vulnerability, comes out of reactivity, comes out those neurochemicals are alive and active in the system again. And there's what's called a window of reconsolidation. The experience that consolidated into the nervous system all of a sudden has a window where it's about to be reconsolidated. And what happens during that window really matters. If compassionate presence giving somebody a voice, giving somebody support, actually listening and affirming to somebody rather than giving advice and trying to fix things like this happen during the moment where that wound is exposed again, window of reconsolidation is open. Then when those neurochemicals reconsolidate into the body, they're going to have a different and more powerful influence intertwined with them. It's so bringing it back to the earth piece or the meditation piece. I mean, this is certainly the function of psychotherapy and why therapy works as well. We're opening up tender things in a compassionate space. There's a reason why when your heartbroken or feeling a little lost, going for a hike and taking your woundedness out to the woods often seems like just the thing to do.

Because the earth, you're saying, that nature is that compassionate presence in its way. Yeah, I think that's what you're saying, right.

Because the earth, you're saying, that nature is that compassionate presence in its way. Yeah, I think that's what you're saying, right.

I mean, listen, I'm an old school punk kid. I don't like sounding so corny and cliche. This isn't upfront to you know, my former identities in so many ways. But yeah, I'm gonna say it, you know, and the buddhas set it, and Richard Schwartz, my mentor, says it, you know, that the earth has this natural compassionate presence to it that sort of holds The Buddhist said, the earth has Buddha nature itself and expresses Buddha nature in so many different ways that a tree has it, animals have it, et cetera, you know, And so for me at the spiritual level, this accounts for some of the experiences we are naturally inclined to have in nature, without question, without analysis, even without trying.

I mean, listen, I'm an old school punk kid. I don't like sounding so corny and cliche. This isn't upfront to you know, my former identities in so many ways. But yeah, I'm gonna say it, you know, and the buddhas set it, and Richard Schwartz, my mentor, says it, you know, that the earth has this natural compassionate presence to it that sort of holds The Buddhist said, the earth has Buddha nature itself and expresses Buddha nature in so many different ways that a tree has it, animals have it, et cetera, you know, And so for me at the spiritual level, this accounts for some of the experiences we are naturally inclined to have in nature, without question, without analysis, even without trying.

Yeah, I mean, and I think if that phrase, you know, nature has you know, natural compassion is the other punk rockers in the audience who are cringing, right, you and I both share the same thing. I think we can just sort of look at the very least the sort of open, welcoming sense of nature and the complete sort of lack of judgment. Right, there's something about it that defies words. And I was thinking about this before we talked, and I was like, you know, we can talk about nature a lot, but it's the practice, it's being in it that matters. It's sort of the old phrase like writing about music is like dancing about architecture, right, saying like it doesn't quite get it. The same thing when we talk about what being in nature is like, is not the same thing as being in nature, you know, and feeling that, but there is something that most people report, I feel better.

Yeah, I mean, and I think if that phrase, you know, nature has you know, natural compassion is the other punk rockers in the audience who are cringing, right, you and I both share the same thing. I think we can just sort of look at the very least the sort of open, welcoming sense of nature and the complete sort of lack of judgment. Right, there's something about it that defies words. And I was thinking about this before we talked, and I was like, you know, we can talk about nature a lot, but it's the practice, it's being in it that matters. It's sort of the old phrase like writing about music is like dancing about architecture, right, saying like it doesn't quite get it. The same thing when we talk about what being in nature is like, is not the same thing as being in nature, you know, and feeling that, but there is something that most people report, I feel better.

You know.

You know.

I may not know the words for it, you know, I'm not quite sure what to call it or why, but I feel better out here.

I may not know the words for it, you know, I'm not quite sure what to call it or why, but I feel better out here.

Yeah. I mean there's also a piece here around participating with nature as well. We're starting to pick up on this of practices like forest bathing that are very popular and people doing outdoor retreats and what have you. Because I was sitting in the Hole National Rainforest up here in Washington two summers ago, and I just spent like, I don't know, like three hours under this tree that had this beautiful moss just draping down off of its branches and overlooking this river, and I was just sort of watching people as they walked by and recognizing how easy it is to just be a tourist in nature, right Like it's like a trip to a museum or Disneyland or something like, oh look at that, Oh there's a bird. Oh, and very little like stopping and really taking something in, really drinking it in, you know. And then there's always the hikers with the backpack speakers on that. I mean, see there's a punk rock judgmental part of me popping out, but.

Yeah. I mean there's also a piece here around participating with nature as well. We're starting to pick up on this of practices like forest bathing that are very popular and people doing outdoor retreats and what have you. Because I was sitting in the Hole National Rainforest up here in Washington two summers ago, and I just spent like, I don't know, like three hours under this tree that had this beautiful moss just draping down off of its branches and overlooking this river, and I was just sort of watching people as they walked by and recognizing how easy it is to just be a tourist in nature, right Like it's like a trip to a museum or Disneyland or something like, oh look at that, Oh there's a bird. Oh, and very little like stopping and really taking something in, really drinking it in, you know. And then there's always the hikers with the backpack speakers on that. I mean, see there's a punk rock judgmental part of me popping out, but.

You're not alone.

You're not alone.

But it's just the obliteration of presence in us is such a strong habit actually slowed down and be receptive in nature. There's a lot of things that I think happen for us automatically, but just too actually open and shift into mindful presence. Mindful receptivity is a gift because again I'm going to argue that there is a natural healing force, that there's a compassionate presence waiting there for us when we open. It's like our parts inside that hold things that hold stresses and experiences and what have. You get to receive it in a deeper, clearer kind of way.

But it's just the obliteration of presence in us is such a strong habit actually slowed down and be receptive in nature. There's a lot of things that I think happen for us automatically, but just too actually open and shift into mindful presence. Mindful receptivity is a gift because again I'm going to argue that there is a natural healing force, that there's a compassionate presence waiting there for us when we open. It's like our parts inside that hold things that hold stresses and experiences and what have. You get to receive it in a deeper, clearer kind of way.

Yeah, my inner punk rocker objects to the phrase forest bathing. Ever since I heard, I was like, oh, goh god, this is terrible. You know, I often joke like I was doing sort of parts work. It's not as evolved as parts work is today, but this is you know, twenty years ago, and it was it was called inner child work.

Yeah, my inner punk rocker objects to the phrase forest bathing. Ever since I heard, I was like, oh, goh god, this is terrible. You know, I often joke like I was doing sort of parts work. It's not as evolved as parts work is today, but this is you know, twenty years ago, and it was it was called inner child work.

Right.

Right.

Oh god, did I hate that phrase. I mean, it just caused me to cringe, But I couldn't deny the power of what was happening when I engaged in it meaningfully and worked with those parts and allowed those parts to have their say and understand why and what and how. Again, the phrasing can be difficult, but it shouldn't ideally turn us away from the power of these practices.

Oh god, did I hate that phrase. I mean, it just caused me to cringe, But I couldn't deny the power of what was happening when I engaged in it meaningfully and worked with those parts and allowed those parts to have their say and understand why and what and how. Again, the phrasing can be difficult, but it shouldn't ideally turn us away from the power of these practices.

It's true. And I mean, let's face it, like so many things that have goodness and value to them that we'd be wise to bring into our lives and become so cliche and watered down. And you know, Instagram has basically turned us all into commercials so that they can hide the real commercials in between the fake commercials that we're doing for them. Like that's basically what's happened with social media. And you know, so there's a lot of powerful concepts and practices and what have you that I've really had the wind taken out of them. Yeah, by this phenomenon that we're all experiencing together and at the same time, I don't know, like Ramdas was onto something, you know, some of these folks who are really onto something. And thankfully we have parts. So I can have my black flag self and I can have my all right, I can utter the word force Basink not a podcast as well.

It's true. And I mean, let's face it, like so many things that have goodness and value to them that we'd be wise to bring into our lives and become so cliche and watered down. And you know, Instagram has basically turned us all into commercials so that they can hide the real commercials in between the fake commercials that we're doing for them. Like that's basically what's happened with social media. And you know, so there's a lot of powerful concepts and practices and what have you that I've really had the wind taken out of them. Yeah, by this phenomenon that we're all experiencing together and at the same time, I don't know, like Ramdas was onto something, you know, some of these folks who are really onto something. And thankfully we have parts. So I can have my black flag self and I can have my all right, I can utter the word force Basink not a podcast as well.

Yes, yes, I want to circle back to trauma for a second, because we have become a much more trauma informed society. It is another word that is starting to creep near mindfulness in its ubiquity. And I think that in my mind, there's no question that becoming a more trauma informed society is a really good thing, right, because people experience trauma at the same time. You know, what you're talking about is a natural process. Something causes our fight or flight thing to come up, and that process gets interrupted, right, So there's two ways to work with that, right. One would be to say, Okay, we give the process the chance to finish, whether that be at the time or we have to go back later and do it. Another way to work with that is to not have the fight or flight be getting kicked off as regularly. And so one of the things I worry about is is we talk about trauma, and we continue to talk about psychology, and we talk about safe spaces and we talk about all sorts of different things. Is there's that debate of is that making us more fragile in a way that we are responding to things that perhaps in a different culture we wouldn't have responded to that. Our fight or flight is coming up in ways that it might not need to, and I think I want to be really careful with that. You know, suddenly you're starting to define what experiences are appropriate for people or what responses are appropriate. And I don't want to get into that because I don't understand other people's lives well enough to do that. But I think about it, and I wonder about and we hear the word trauma used all the time for things that at first glance don't appear traumatizing, and I'm just kind of curious what you think about that, because you're much closer to this space in your day to day life than I am.

Yes, yes, I want to circle back to trauma for a second, because we have become a much more trauma informed society. It is another word that is starting to creep near mindfulness in its ubiquity. And I think that in my mind, there's no question that becoming a more trauma informed society is a really good thing, right, because people experience trauma at the same time. You know, what you're talking about is a natural process. Something causes our fight or flight thing to come up, and that process gets interrupted, right, So there's two ways to work with that, right. One would be to say, Okay, we give the process the chance to finish, whether that be at the time or we have to go back later and do it. Another way to work with that is to not have the fight or flight be getting kicked off as regularly. And so one of the things I worry about is is we talk about trauma, and we continue to talk about psychology, and we talk about safe spaces and we talk about all sorts of different things. Is there's that debate of is that making us more fragile in a way that we are responding to things that perhaps in a different culture we wouldn't have responded to that. Our fight or flight is coming up in ways that it might not need to, and I think I want to be really careful with that. You know, suddenly you're starting to define what experiences are appropriate for people or what responses are appropriate. And I don't want to get into that because I don't understand other people's lives well enough to do that. But I think about it, and I wonder about and we hear the word trauma used all the time for things that at first glance don't appear traumatizing, and I'm just kind of curious what you think about that, because you're much closer to this space in your day to day life than I am.

Yeah, and I mean thank you for the sensitivity that you showed, especially towards the end there, because a big factor in all of this that you were definitely acknowledging is the subjectivity that what's traumatizing to one person might not be for the other person. And there's a complex network of factors and variables in somebody's lives that contribute to that. This is heavily researched things, and there's a lot of answers out there with regards to that why one person might be shook by something and another person might say a challenge is an opportunity. I'm going to grow from this. Right, You're very right, because so many of the mental health conversations that I'm so grateful we're having. This is definitely the golden age of mental health and trauma awareness. But they're happening on these ninety second videos on TikTok where we don't get so much of the nuance and people are reading less books with that, which is necessarily the place that you're going to get more nuance and life workshops and online courses and what have you. So something that doesn't get talked about enough is that traumatic experience doesn't have to become traumatic stress, and traumatic stress doesn't have to become PTSD. That a traumatic experience we can, in the moment that is happening, if we're resourced enough, work with it in such a way that it doesn't have to we mitigate its opportunity to become traumatic stress and then go to become that skipping record, and again its compassionate presence, it's compassionate relationship to what's going on in the moment that it's happening. That makes all the difference and helps us complete this process. I'll give you a personal example without going Tomi. I had a really devastating experience on Saturday night, absolutely crushed me heartbroken. On Sunday, I was very much in that heartbreak, and I did a few things that I just know to do now. One, I let myself feel it. I just said, oh, well it's here. I can either prolong this or I can let it just kind of carve into me, and so I let myself feel it. Two. I texted just about everybody I knew who could be a compassionate support for me, and whether that conversation stayed on text or became a phone call. There was a few phone calls, but I connected to a lot of different friends who had a lot of positive feedback were able to just listen. And then I rode the waves as the feelings came up throughout the day. And then three, I turned to my creative practice and I turned on garage band and I picked up a guitar and I channeled some of those feelings into this meaning making practice that I have in my life. I made meaning out of it. I wrote songs about it, and I walked away from the day with something to show for. I had these recordings that I made that day, and I did the same part because I was like, well, I have to be a trauma therapist by Monday. Right now I don't have that capacity, and so I can just retreat for a day and really be with this experience I had last night, and lo and behold. By Monday, I was good enough, you know, still hardpoken, but good enough to hold space for people. I had therapy and I really got to work through some things. And here we are on Thursday, and I'm relatively back to normal with some more processing to do. But what could have spiraled into a deeply traumatizing experience became the impetus for connection and creativity. And that's exactly what we're talking about.

Yeah, and I mean thank you for the sensitivity that you showed, especially towards the end there, because a big factor in all of this that you were definitely acknowledging is the subjectivity that what's traumatizing to one person might not be for the other person. And there's a complex network of factors and variables in somebody's lives that contribute to that. This is heavily researched things, and there's a lot of answers out there with regards to that why one person might be shook by something and another person might say a challenge is an opportunity. I'm going to grow from this. Right, You're very right, because so many of the mental health conversations that I'm so grateful we're having. This is definitely the golden age of mental health and trauma awareness. But they're happening on these ninety second videos on TikTok where we don't get so much of the nuance and people are reading less books with that, which is necessarily the place that you're going to get more nuance and life workshops and online courses and what have you. So something that doesn't get talked about enough is that traumatic experience doesn't have to become traumatic stress, and traumatic stress doesn't have to become PTSD. That a traumatic experience we can, in the moment that is happening, if we're resourced enough, work with it in such a way that it doesn't have to we mitigate its opportunity to become traumatic stress and then go to become that skipping record, and again its compassionate presence, it's compassionate relationship to what's going on in the moment that it's happening. That makes all the difference and helps us complete this process. I'll give you a personal example without going Tomi. I had a really devastating experience on Saturday night, absolutely crushed me heartbroken. On Sunday, I was very much in that heartbreak, and I did a few things that I just know to do now. One, I let myself feel it. I just said, oh, well it's here. I can either prolong this or I can let it just kind of carve into me, and so I let myself feel it. Two. I texted just about everybody I knew who could be a compassionate support for me, and whether that conversation stayed on text or became a phone call. There was a few phone calls, but I connected to a lot of different friends who had a lot of positive feedback were able to just listen. And then I rode the waves as the feelings came up throughout the day. And then three, I turned to my creative practice and I turned on garage band and I picked up a guitar and I channeled some of those feelings into this meaning making practice that I have in my life. I made meaning out of it. I wrote songs about it, and I walked away from the day with something to show for. I had these recordings that I made that day, and I did the same part because I was like, well, I have to be a trauma therapist by Monday. Right now I don't have that capacity, and so I can just retreat for a day and really be with this experience I had last night, and lo and behold. By Monday, I was good enough, you know, still hardpoken, but good enough to hold space for people. I had therapy and I really got to work through some things. And here we are on Thursday, and I'm relatively back to normal with some more processing to do. But what could have spiraled into a deeply traumatizing experience became the impetus for connection and creativity. And that's exactly what we're talking about.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I think there's a couple of things as you were talking that sort of came to mind for me there, and one was you neither indulged nor repressed what was happening. You sort of allowed it and gave it that as we're saying, compassionate presence, and allowed other people to enter that space. And it makes me think about we used to use this phrase an AA called you know, keeping your side of the street clean, right, and it was largely talking about our own behavior. However, I think it applies across our psyche, right that when we are dealing with what comes up, as it comes up up, then the accumulation doesn't build up, right. And you know, for me, when I hit recovery, there was such an accumulation of psychic injury that had been both caused to me and I had caused to myself, right, I mean they co created this mess, you know. But over time, as I you know, to use a software development terms, I reduced the backlog, right. I was more able to when a situation happened, experience it in a more present moment me kind of way instead of it being what's actually happening and all this backlog, you know, all this stuff coming at the same time. And I think what you just showed there is exactly how to do that, how to remain somewhat current with what's happening, so that you know your heart's broken, it's tender, but it's gonna heal and you're going to be on the other side of it and it's not going to be this thing that you carry around for the next decade.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I think there's a couple of things as you were talking that sort of came to mind for me there, and one was you neither indulged nor repressed what was happening. You sort of allowed it and gave it that as we're saying, compassionate presence, and allowed other people to enter that space. And it makes me think about we used to use this phrase an AA called you know, keeping your side of the street clean, right, and it was largely talking about our own behavior. However, I think it applies across our psyche, right that when we are dealing with what comes up, as it comes up up, then the accumulation doesn't build up, right. And you know, for me, when I hit recovery, there was such an accumulation of psychic injury that had been both caused to me and I had caused to myself, right, I mean they co created this mess, you know. But over time, as I you know, to use a software development terms, I reduced the backlog, right. I was more able to when a situation happened, experience it in a more present moment me kind of way instead of it being what's actually happening and all this backlog, you know, all this stuff coming at the same time. And I think what you just showed there is exactly how to do that, how to remain somewhat current with what's happening, so that you know your heart's broken, it's tender, but it's gonna heal and you're going to be on the other side of it and it's not going to be this thing that you carry around for the next decade.

This is the function of meditation practice. This is a function of the self help and even pop psychology lenses we hold. This is the function of the dharma. This is a function of view. Very Buddhist word, but you know what your view of what your life is and what have you. This is part of the function of all of that. It's the part of the function of doing internal process such as with parts work, but there's many other processes as well as it. A gender is that sense of trust. So you just said it. I want to highlight it, trusting that there is another side to this. I can get to that other side of this. Things are messed up now, but I can return to being okay later. Our society teaches us two modes of relating to intense emotions. The most popular mode is repression. Stuff it down, not today, And I'm a fan of that way.

This is the function of meditation practice. This is a function of the self help and even pop psychology lenses we hold. This is the function of the dharma. This is a function of view. Very Buddhist word, but you know what your view of what your life is and what have you. This is part of the function of all of that. It's the part of the function of doing internal process such as with parts work, but there's many other processes as well as it. A gender is that sense of trust. So you just said it. I want to highlight it, trusting that there is another side to this. I can get to that other side of this. Things are messed up now, but I can return to being okay later. Our society teaches us two modes of relating to intense emotions. The most popular mode is repression. Stuff it down, not today, And I'm a fan of that way.

Yeah, I'm a deep practitioner in that art.

Yeah, I'm a deep practitioner in that art.