Honoring of life really becomes about being clear about what our values are and making those decisions with the commitment to the least harm possible.

Honoring of life really becomes about being clear about what our values are and making those decisions with the commitment to the least harm possible.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is sebin A Selassie, a teacher, author and speaker who explores the themes of belonging and identity through meditation, creativity, and spirituality. She is also a teacher on the ten Percent Happier Meditation app sebin A began studying Buddhism thirty years ago and is a three time cancer survivor of stage three and four cancer. Her book is You Belong A Call for Connection.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is sebin A Selassie, a teacher, author and speaker who explores the themes of belonging and identity through meditation, creativity, and spirituality. She is also a teacher on the ten Percent Happier Meditation app sebin A began studying Buddhism thirty years ago and is a three time cancer survivor of stage three and four cancer. Her book is You Belong A Call for Connection.

Hi Sebine, Welcome to the show.

Hi Sebine, Welcome to the show.

Hi Eric, Thanks for having me.

Hi Eric, Thanks for having me.

It's a real honor to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book, You Belong a Call for Connection, but before we do, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandmother. She says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

It's a real honor to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book, You Belong a Call for Connection, but before we do, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandmother. She says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I really appreciated this question. I gave it some thought and in reflecting, I realized that I might have had a different answer in the past that really thought of those so called bad qualities and that bad wolf as something that I needed to kind of excize or eliminate, something that was not a part of me, you know. And I really take it to heart that the parable says that these are both inside us. And as I've come to maybe hopefully more maturation in my process and in my practice, you know, recognizing that I don't need to reject any part of myself, and I can still recognize what needs to be nurtured and what needs to be maybe soothed or transformed or you know, worked with in a different way, because I've really come to appreciate everything that's brought me to this moment, including my so called negative traits or bad qualities or the bad wolf, and really come to appreciate how I might not have even gotten to understanding how much I want to support and encourage the good parts if I hadn't had to deal with the bad parts. Right, so even just that good and bad starts to be thrown into question, and it really becomes about really understanding my values and living in an integrity and alignment with this process of waking up. So it's a profound parable because it seems simple and just kind of identifying these good and bad qualities, but it really leads us into a full exploration of what it means to be human.

Yeah, I really appreciated this question. I gave it some thought and in reflecting, I realized that I might have had a different answer in the past that really thought of those so called bad qualities and that bad wolf as something that I needed to kind of excize or eliminate, something that was not a part of me, you know. And I really take it to heart that the parable says that these are both inside us. And as I've come to maybe hopefully more maturation in my process and in my practice, you know, recognizing that I don't need to reject any part of myself, and I can still recognize what needs to be nurtured and what needs to be maybe soothed or transformed or you know, worked with in a different way, because I've really come to appreciate everything that's brought me to this moment, including my so called negative traits or bad qualities or the bad wolf, and really come to appreciate how I might not have even gotten to understanding how much I want to support and encourage the good parts if I hadn't had to deal with the bad parts. Right, so even just that good and bad starts to be thrown into question, and it really becomes about really understanding my values and living in an integrity and alignment with this process of waking up. So it's a profound parable because it seems simple and just kind of identifying these good and bad qualities, but it really leads us into a full exploration of what it means to be human.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that. That's a great and nuanced take on it. I've joked before that almost I would rather say the skillful and unskillful wolf, But that doesn't make for a very good parable. It kind of loses some of its edge. But like you said, one of the things I love about the parable is it does not say we have to starve the bad wolf. It doesn't say we have to lock him up. We don't have to do anything to the bad wolf. It's just let's give a little bit more attention. But I also think you're right that I like that idea of I think if I look at my own life, and so much of this show has been me talking about all the things that I've messed up in my life and how those things have led me to where I am. You know, how our pain and our mistakes and our problems. Is that idea of yeah, understanding and soothing the bad wolf.

I love that. That's a great and nuanced take on it. I've joked before that almost I would rather say the skillful and unskillful wolf, But that doesn't make for a very good parable. It kind of loses some of its edge. But like you said, one of the things I love about the parable is it does not say we have to starve the bad wolf. It doesn't say we have to lock him up. We don't have to do anything to the bad wolf. It's just let's give a little bit more attention. But I also think you're right that I like that idea of I think if I look at my own life, and so much of this show has been me talking about all the things that I've messed up in my life and how those things have led me to where I am. You know, how our pain and our mistakes and our problems. Is that idea of yeah, understanding and soothing the bad wolf.

Yeah, And it just makes it so much more human. Relatable. It gives this potential and possibility that I think is really powerful.

Yeah, And it just makes it so much more human. Relatable. It gives this potential and possibility that I think is really powerful.

Yeah, So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Goodwolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one youfeed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. There are so many places I could jump in here, because your book has so many wonderful things, But I think I'm just going to start at the beginning, which is to talk about belonging. And I guess I was hoping maybe we could start by having you define what you mean by belonging in.

Yeah, So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Goodwolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one youfeed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. There are so many places I could jump in here, because your book has so many wonderful things, But I think I'm just going to start at the beginning, which is to talk about belonging. And I guess I was hoping maybe we could start by having you define what you mean by belonging in.

This case, Yeah, you know. I start book kind of in that classic thing where you define something by looking at its opposite. And so I talk about the fact that I am a belonging expert because I didn't feel like I belonged for so long, and so for me, belonging really begins to fill out a sense of wholeness that I didn't feel as a young person, and even more recently in my life that I always felt like an outsider either culturally or racially or socially, or there are ways that I felt like I was not enough, didn't look a certain way, or have enough things or have enough success, or maybe I was too much in certain spaces, like I was too political or you know, too disruptive to certain spaces or places or communities. So you know, belonging was something I was searching for and feeling a lot of times that I didn't have. So on a social level, like a human level, belonging is that sense of ease and wellness and sense of connection that we feel with people. And I'm also talking about belonging on sort of a more absolute or spiritual level, which is that feeling of not being separate from anything, so from parts of ourselves, from other people, from nature, and really from all of reality. So talking about both the relative sense of belonging and also this spiritual or absolute sense of belonging, you.

This case, Yeah, you know. I start book kind of in that classic thing where you define something by looking at its opposite. And so I talk about the fact that I am a belonging expert because I didn't feel like I belonged for so long, and so for me, belonging really begins to fill out a sense of wholeness that I didn't feel as a young person, and even more recently in my life that I always felt like an outsider either culturally or racially or socially, or there are ways that I felt like I was not enough, didn't look a certain way, or have enough things or have enough success, or maybe I was too much in certain spaces, like I was too political or you know, too disruptive to certain spaces or places or communities. So you know, belonging was something I was searching for and feeling a lot of times that I didn't have. So on a social level, like a human level, belonging is that sense of ease and wellness and sense of connection that we feel with people. And I'm also talking about belonging on sort of a more absolute or spiritual level, which is that feeling of not being separate from anything, so from parts of ourselves, from other people, from nature, and really from all of reality. So talking about both the relative sense of belonging and also this spiritual or absolute sense of belonging, you.

Say that belonging is not dependent on things being as we want them to be. You listen, things off, it's not necessary to achieve some definition of success or to behave like everyone else, or to have the perfect partner or be the perfect size or shape. You even say the forces of oppression don't have to magically disappear in order for us to belong.

Say that belonging is not dependent on things being as we want them to be. You listen, things off, it's not necessary to achieve some definition of success or to behave like everyone else, or to have the perfect partner or be the perfect size or shape. You even say the forces of oppression don't have to magically disappear in order for us to belong.

Yeah, and so you know, a lot of the book I spend kind of exploring what are often called in Buddhism the two truths, or the paradigm of the two truths. This absolute sense of belonging that I was speaking of, which is the truth of reality that you know, modern physics and ancient wisdom tell us that there's no separation. So even on a just energetic level, we're all vibrating energy patterns, and that's been shown to be true, even if our senses tell us otherwise. And so we belong no matter what. You know, that fundamental sense of belonging is a fact that it's undeniable. And then there's also the relative truth of all those lists of things you just read, and including the forces of separation. So I kind of repeat this two sentences over and over again, that we are not separate and we are not the same, and navigating those two truths is really the work of belonging.

Yeah, and so you know, a lot of the book I spend kind of exploring what are often called in Buddhism the two truths, or the paradigm of the two truths. This absolute sense of belonging that I was speaking of, which is the truth of reality that you know, modern physics and ancient wisdom tell us that there's no separation. So even on a just energetic level, we're all vibrating energy patterns, and that's been shown to be true, even if our senses tell us otherwise. And so we belong no matter what. You know, that fundamental sense of belonging is a fact that it's undeniable. And then there's also the relative truth of all those lists of things you just read, and including the forces of separation. So I kind of repeat this two sentences over and over again, that we are not separate and we are not the same, and navigating those two truths is really the work of belonging.

Yes, I don't know who your teacher was. I know who you said your teacher's teacher was, Joco bec So I know you have a zen background I'm in the Zen tradition primary, and that absolute and relative is such a Zen idea. It shows up there so often, whether we refer to it that way as absolute and relative or we refer to it as form and emptiness. I think it's such an interesting thing to talk about because you actually say, how do we acknowledge difference and inequities and also hold a firm conviction that fundamentally we are all irrevocably interconnected. And I think this is such a question I get a lot when I'm working with people and coaching. We start to wander into that absolute truth, or we start to wander into the idea that like everything we're seeing is our perspective, And people will go, yeah, but what about Donald Trump? What about this act of violence? And it feels like there's never a very good answer except to say, we kind of have to hold both these truths. But do you have a better way to say it than that? Because I feel like I always fall short.

Yes, I don't know who your teacher was. I know who you said your teacher's teacher was, Joco bec So I know you have a zen background I'm in the Zen tradition primary, and that absolute and relative is such a Zen idea. It shows up there so often, whether we refer to it that way as absolute and relative or we refer to it as form and emptiness. I think it's such an interesting thing to talk about because you actually say, how do we acknowledge difference and inequities and also hold a firm conviction that fundamentally we are all irrevocably interconnected. And I think this is such a question I get a lot when I'm working with people and coaching. We start to wander into that absolute truth, or we start to wander into the idea that like everything we're seeing is our perspective, And people will go, yeah, but what about Donald Trump? What about this act of violence? And it feels like there's never a very good answer except to say, we kind of have to hold both these truths. But do you have a better way to say it than that? Because I feel like I always fall short.

Well, you know, it's a process, because we're all falling short all the time, because there's no perfect balance of meeting both, not in most humans I've met anyways. And you know, for me, it's really navigating where our imbalances may be, and particularly where are aversions and grasping, maybe especially when they are quite subtle. Right, so, we can have a tendency to want to bypass discomfort, and there's a lot of discomfort with the relative reality because it is uncomfortable. You know, it's painful to witness what we're still doing to each other in this day and age. You know, in the most in ways. There's a war raging right now in Ethiopia, where I was born that is based on the most inane delusions of separation that you could imagine. You know, any delusion of separation is delusion, but the lengths that people will go to kind of cling to that idea that there are these fundamental differences that require violence and aggression. But you know, those are sort of the very egregious acts of separation. But you know, we don't even want to look at kind of the anger that comes up in response to our neighbors or to our family members. And so we can kind of lean towards that absolute of we're all one or it's all emptiness as a way to actually avoid that. There's a subtle aversion in our practice, and then on the other side. You know, we can cling to those relative realities as if they're true, true, and more true. And the thing about this paradox is they're both true. It doesn't say that one is truthier, you know. So it becomes a really moment to moment subtle awareness of which one we're clinging to, which one are we're avoiding. That's how it's been for me.

Well, you know, it's a process, because we're all falling short all the time, because there's no perfect balance of meeting both, not in most humans I've met anyways. And you know, for me, it's really navigating where our imbalances may be, and particularly where are aversions and grasping, maybe especially when they are quite subtle. Right, so, we can have a tendency to want to bypass discomfort, and there's a lot of discomfort with the relative reality because it is uncomfortable. You know, it's painful to witness what we're still doing to each other in this day and age. You know, in the most in ways. There's a war raging right now in Ethiopia, where I was born that is based on the most inane delusions of separation that you could imagine. You know, any delusion of separation is delusion, but the lengths that people will go to kind of cling to that idea that there are these fundamental differences that require violence and aggression. But you know, those are sort of the very egregious acts of separation. But you know, we don't even want to look at kind of the anger that comes up in response to our neighbors or to our family members. And so we can kind of lean towards that absolute of we're all one or it's all emptiness as a way to actually avoid that. There's a subtle aversion in our practice, and then on the other side. You know, we can cling to those relative realities as if they're true, true, and more true. And the thing about this paradox is they're both true. It doesn't say that one is truthier, you know. So it becomes a really moment to moment subtle awareness of which one we're clinging to, which one are we're avoiding. That's how it's been for me.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the middle Way. It's one of those teachings that has meant so much much to me. And we tend to think of the middle way as why we just sort of split the difference. But the other way that the middle Way, I think manifests is you hold these two extremes.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the middle Way. It's one of those teachings that has meant so much much to me. And we tend to think of the middle way as why we just sort of split the difference. But the other way that the middle Way, I think manifests is you hold these two extremes.

Yeah. I like that. Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. I like that. Yeah, that's great.

On an absolute level, it's all interconnected, it's all one, it's all essentially fine. And on a relative level, it's none of those things. And I have to hold both those.

On an absolute level, it's all interconnected, it's all one, it's all essentially fine. And on a relative level, it's none of those things. And I have to hold both those.

Yeah, And I know, for me, a really good sign that I'm not holding that is when I kind of slip into domination. And I really believe, and I talk about this in the book, that separation begets domination. These dominating patterns where we cling to being right and there's some way in which I like that holding the extremes where you really can't be right if you're sort of in the extremes of both camps, because you're recognizing the multitudes of realities along that whole spectrum in between, right, instead of trying to hold to some particular balance in the middle. Yeah, I really like that.

Yeah, And I know, for me, a really good sign that I'm not holding that is when I kind of slip into domination. And I really believe, and I talk about this in the book, that separation begets domination. These dominating patterns where we cling to being right and there's some way in which I like that holding the extremes where you really can't be right if you're sort of in the extremes of both camps, because you're recognizing the multitudes of realities along that whole spectrum in between, right, instead of trying to hold to some particular balance in the middle. Yeah, I really like that.

While we're talking about this doctrine and the two truths between the absolute and the relative, let's just talk for a moment about the absolute. I love how you mentioned that both sort of our indigenous wisdom are religious traditions of all sorts, and modern science both point us, you say, to the truth of our belonging. You know, they both point to the fact that separation is a myth for you. How has that gone from an intellectual understanding, because again, if we study science closely enough, we sort of, yeah, you do arrive at this point where you're like, well, yeah, I guess you know, it is all energy that's just swirling around in all kinds of different ways, whether you know, more condensed or slower, But that's all that's happening. How has that happened for you experientially? Has it largely been through meditation practice that you've had some of those, maybe more experiences of oneness.

While we're talking about this doctrine and the two truths between the absolute and the relative, let's just talk for a moment about the absolute. I love how you mentioned that both sort of our indigenous wisdom are religious traditions of all sorts, and modern science both point us, you say, to the truth of our belonging. You know, they both point to the fact that separation is a myth for you. How has that gone from an intellectual understanding, because again, if we study science closely enough, we sort of, yeah, you do arrive at this point where you're like, well, yeah, I guess you know, it is all energy that's just swirling around in all kinds of different ways, whether you know, more condensed or slower, But that's all that's happening. How has that happened for you experientially? Has it largely been through meditation practice that you've had some of those, maybe more experiences of oneness.

Yeah, you know, there definitely been experiences, particularly on deep retreat, where there's been that understanding of the energetic body and the experience in many different ways, you know, so subtle sensations to strong sensations, to recognizing you know, tones in the body that map to the chakras, and all types of experiences that many people probably had. I think my earliest experiences were through psychedelics when I was in college, and like a lot of people, opening kind of a door to the mystical and the awareness that wait a second, there's more going on here than the ordinary senses reveal, and so that is a really I think powerful window into the nature of reality. We're in the right circumstances and conditions that allow for that. And then, you know, I think also unless sort of let's say mystic goal and meditative experiences or not less meditative, but less kind of typically what people would think were spiritual awakenings, there can be really powerful mental and emotional understanding of this. You know, something as simple as being on retreat and reaching such a point of stillness that there's an awareness that when we're truly present and mindful, and with our sensory experience that we can be flooded with love and connection, you know, feelings of witnessing the same room and the same people in a completely different way. And so it doesn't have to be like an energetic body experience or out of body experience or the walls melting or that. It can be just really, you know, a love for others, and people experience this on dance floors, you know, at festivals or in nature at the beach with their children, with their pets. So it's also tuning ourselves to what that is actually speaking to and kind of waking up our antenna for that.

Yeah, you know, there definitely been experiences, particularly on deep retreat, where there's been that understanding of the energetic body and the experience in many different ways, you know, so subtle sensations to strong sensations, to recognizing you know, tones in the body that map to the chakras, and all types of experiences that many people probably had. I think my earliest experiences were through psychedelics when I was in college, and like a lot of people, opening kind of a door to the mystical and the awareness that wait a second, there's more going on here than the ordinary senses reveal, and so that is a really I think powerful window into the nature of reality. We're in the right circumstances and conditions that allow for that. And then, you know, I think also unless sort of let's say mystic goal and meditative experiences or not less meditative, but less kind of typically what people would think were spiritual awakenings, there can be really powerful mental and emotional understanding of this. You know, something as simple as being on retreat and reaching such a point of stillness that there's an awareness that when we're truly present and mindful, and with our sensory experience that we can be flooded with love and connection, you know, feelings of witnessing the same room and the same people in a completely different way. And so it doesn't have to be like an energetic body experience or out of body experience or the walls melting or that. It can be just really, you know, a love for others, and people experience this on dance floors, you know, at festivals or in nature at the beach with their children, with their pets. So it's also tuning ourselves to what that is actually speaking to and kind of waking up our antenna for that.

There's a phrase that you use in the book that I want to talk about because I think this is so insidious in modern life, although I actually don't think it's a modern phenomenon. It's just maybe been turned up a little bit, and you call it compare and compete. Say a little bit more about that.

There's a phrase that you use in the book that I want to talk about because I think this is so insidious in modern life, although I actually don't think it's a modern phenomenon. It's just maybe been turned up a little bit, and you call it compare and compete. Say a little bit more about that.

You know. I connect it to this Buddhist teaching of mana ma na, which is a polyword that means to measure, and one of the things I love about that teaching as I heard it from Joseph Goldstein is that mana is one of the very last fetters or you know, these bad wolf qualities in us. It's one of the very last ones. In the classical teachings, it said to release before awakening. So basically that measuring mind, it's often called the comparing mind. It's there till the end. And I always want to start with that because it's something that we have to work with and get used to so we can get to like fix it and solve it mode that this is something to get rid of, you know, kind of like the bad wolf, but it's actually something that we have to acknowledge as part of being human, and we don't want to feed it, but you know, we have to learn to kind of live with it inside us. And it really is that measuring you know, we literally measure everything. There's a part of our mind that's constantly in that mode. And what's really fascinating about it is that it's said that it manifests as both an idea of better then and less then and equal to, so it's not just about superiority or inferiority. There's sort of an equality fixation that we have as well, which you know, for those of us who are interested in issues of justice and equity, you know, we really have to look at that because it's still fueling a sense of separation and so it's still navigating that paradox when we work with it.

You know. I connect it to this Buddhist teaching of mana ma na, which is a polyword that means to measure, and one of the things I love about that teaching as I heard it from Joseph Goldstein is that mana is one of the very last fetters or you know, these bad wolf qualities in us. It's one of the very last ones. In the classical teachings, it said to release before awakening. So basically that measuring mind, it's often called the comparing mind. It's there till the end. And I always want to start with that because it's something that we have to work with and get used to so we can get to like fix it and solve it mode that this is something to get rid of, you know, kind of like the bad wolf, but it's actually something that we have to acknowledge as part of being human, and we don't want to feed it, but you know, we have to learn to kind of live with it inside us. And it really is that measuring you know, we literally measure everything. There's a part of our mind that's constantly in that mode. And what's really fascinating about it is that it's said that it manifests as both an idea of better then and less then and equal to, so it's not just about superiority or inferiority. There's sort of an equality fixation that we have as well, which you know, for those of us who are interested in issues of justice and equity, you know, we really have to look at that because it's still fueling a sense of separation and so it's still navigating that paradox when we work with it.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting teaching too, that better than worse than and equal. I think I've shared this experience on the show before, but I had this experience of I went to Los Angeles and I was interviewing somebody and I went to their apartment and they had a really nice apartment in the Hollywood Hills. It was beautiful, and I stepped on the balcony and I had this moment of looking down at everybody down there, and I was thinking, you know, this guy has it all, Like look at all those people down there. You know it's it's you know, sort of looking down on And then I had this moment. I glanced over my shoulder and I saw these houses up the hill and I was like, oh, wait a minute, like this guy's just got an apartment. And in that moment, I just got this sense. And the sense was whether I'm comparing up or I'm comparing down. I'm not connecting, and it was that sense that the way out of this was to be connected.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting teaching too, that better than worse than and equal. I think I've shared this experience on the show before, but I had this experience of I went to Los Angeles and I was interviewing somebody and I went to their apartment and they had a really nice apartment in the Hollywood Hills. It was beautiful, and I stepped on the balcony and I had this moment of looking down at everybody down there, and I was thinking, you know, this guy has it all, Like look at all those people down there. You know it's it's you know, sort of looking down on And then I had this moment. I glanced over my shoulder and I saw these houses up the hill and I was like, oh, wait a minute, like this guy's just got an apartment. And in that moment, I just got this sense. And the sense was whether I'm comparing up or I'm comparing down. I'm not connecting, and it was that sense that the way out of this was to be connected.

Yeah, I really see it in my life too, in terms of just the way our society is structured so that we often aren't in contact with people that are that different from us. Right, So we see that in terms of the lack of racial integration, our class integration, that there can be that measuring just because society is structured it that way. And I've really looked at the lack of people kind of outside of and I have a pretty multi racial group of friends, but I don't have a kind of group of friends that spans the education spectrum or somewhat a wealth spectrum. But I often notice that I feel a sense of separation from my friends that are way way wealthier than me, and feelings of guilt or that kind of privilege paranoia can crop up with friends who have a lot less than me. And so just starting to see how it plays out in our own lives, and then we start creating these bubbles where we feel safer, maybe because we don't have to deal with that comparison so much and reckon with it.

Yeah, I really see it in my life too, in terms of just the way our society is structured so that we often aren't in contact with people that are that different from us. Right, So we see that in terms of the lack of racial integration, our class integration, that there can be that measuring just because society is structured it that way. And I've really looked at the lack of people kind of outside of and I have a pretty multi racial group of friends, but I don't have a kind of group of friends that spans the education spectrum or somewhat a wealth spectrum. But I often notice that I feel a sense of separation from my friends that are way way wealthier than me, and feelings of guilt or that kind of privilege paranoia can crop up with friends who have a lot less than me. And so just starting to see how it plays out in our own lives, and then we start creating these bubbles where we feel safer, maybe because we don't have to deal with that comparison so much and reckon with it.

Yep.

Yep.

I find it so interesting that that phrase keeping up with the Joneses right comes from you know, really comparing yourself also but just to the person right next door. Yes, it's so endemic. But you say in the book, and I love this, you say, we hustle relentlessly to be better, smarter, healthier, cooler, thinner, richer, funnier, prettier, calmer, and woker. The error at the end of these words is comparison and competition. And I love that that idea. Like anytime you've got that prefix at the end, is it a prefix a suffix? I don't know those two letters at the end. You're in comparison mode.

I find it so interesting that that phrase keeping up with the Joneses right comes from you know, really comparing yourself also but just to the person right next door. Yes, it's so endemic. But you say in the book, and I love this, you say, we hustle relentlessly to be better, smarter, healthier, cooler, thinner, richer, funnier, prettier, calmer, and woker. The error at the end of these words is comparison and competition. And I love that that idea. Like anytime you've got that prefix at the end, is it a prefix a suffix? I don't know those two letters at the end. You're in comparison mode.

Yes, yeah, and you know, to not beat ourselves up about any of this. Of course, one of my favorite statements ever, and it's in the book, is one from Krishna Murti where he says, you think you're thinking your thoughts, you're not. You're thinking the culture's thoughts. And just to realize that this patterning and conditioning is really just bred into us literally, you know, epigenetically, some of these anxieties and ways that we bring in, these fears about the outside or others or certain experiences, that's passed down. It's either passed down genetically or it's passed down culturally or socially or in our families, and you know, it's really obvious. I spent a year working in refugee camps in West Africa, and that was the longest I'd spent outside of New York City in over a decade. I lived in New York at that time. This was back in like two thousand and three, And when I came back, it was so wild. I got on the subway and I could see all the fashion trends that were popular that year. All the women were wearing the same kind of boots, and all the guys had like a particular kind of haircut or face hair. And there was this way in which I could just see this, How does that happen? You know, how does suddenly everyone pick up? But it's in this comparison. Oh she looks cool and she has that maybe I should get that, or this is in this magazine or that celebrity, And so it shows up in the most mundane ways. The Doublewares product. I don't know if you've seen that film, but you know this certain color blue that everyone has suddenly two really harmful ways where the comparison and competition leads to everything from eating disorders, to self harm, to suicide, to much more harmful also systemic depression.

Yes, yeah, and you know, to not beat ourselves up about any of this. Of course, one of my favorite statements ever, and it's in the book, is one from Krishna Murti where he says, you think you're thinking your thoughts, you're not. You're thinking the culture's thoughts. And just to realize that this patterning and conditioning is really just bred into us literally, you know, epigenetically, some of these anxieties and ways that we bring in, these fears about the outside or others or certain experiences, that's passed down. It's either passed down genetically or it's passed down culturally or socially or in our families, and you know, it's really obvious. I spent a year working in refugee camps in West Africa, and that was the longest I'd spent outside of New York City in over a decade. I lived in New York at that time. This was back in like two thousand and three, And when I came back, it was so wild. I got on the subway and I could see all the fashion trends that were popular that year. All the women were wearing the same kind of boots, and all the guys had like a particular kind of haircut or face hair. And there was this way in which I could just see this, How does that happen? You know, how does suddenly everyone pick up? But it's in this comparison. Oh she looks cool and she has that maybe I should get that, or this is in this magazine or that celebrity, And so it shows up in the most mundane ways. The Doublewares product. I don't know if you've seen that film, but you know this certain color blue that everyone has suddenly two really harmful ways where the comparison and competition leads to everything from eating disorders, to self harm, to suicide, to much more harmful also systemic depression.

That is such a great quote. We're not thinking, Arthur, We're thinking the culture's thoughts. And I think one of the best things about meditation for me was when I finally got over worrying that there were thoughts happening and feeling like that was bad, to suddenly really sit back in a position of curiosity and be like, what is happening in here? Where do these thoughts keep coming from? I call them mine, but they're not mine in any sense that I can say I chose them exactly. I mean, meditation shows us that right away, like, well, I'm not choosing to think or not think. And then if you go a level deeper as you're saying, you start to realize, like, I didn't choose these thoughts. They are the culture's thoughts, or they are my parents thoughts, They're this combination of all these things. But that's a really freeing At least it was for me, a really freeing realization like, oh wait a minute, I don't have to take these so seriously.

That is such a great quote. We're not thinking, Arthur, We're thinking the culture's thoughts. And I think one of the best things about meditation for me was when I finally got over worrying that there were thoughts happening and feeling like that was bad, to suddenly really sit back in a position of curiosity and be like, what is happening in here? Where do these thoughts keep coming from? I call them mine, but they're not mine in any sense that I can say I chose them exactly. I mean, meditation shows us that right away, like, well, I'm not choosing to think or not think. And then if you go a level deeper as you're saying, you start to realize, like, I didn't choose these thoughts. They are the culture's thoughts, or they are my parents thoughts, They're this combination of all these things. But that's a really freeing At least it was for me, a really freeing realization like, oh wait a minute, I don't have to take these so seriously.

Yeah, it's freeing, and it's also so powerful for what ails us as a society. Because it really allows us to tackle some of the divisions and some of the inequities without those feelings of guilt or accusation. And I like this saying that I've heard now from many people that it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.

Yeah, it's freeing, and it's also so powerful for what ails us as a society. Because it really allows us to tackle some of the divisions and some of the inequities without those feelings of guilt or accusation. And I like this saying that I've heard now from many people that it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.

That is a very well articulated phrase. Exactly, it's not my fault, but it is my responsibility. You talk a lot about implicit bias. You told a story, I think it was with Dan Harris about being at a hospital and meeting a surgeon. Could you share that.

That is a very well articulated phrase. Exactly, it's not my fault, but it is my responsibility. You talk a lot about implicit bias. You told a story, I think it was with Dan Harris about being at a hospital and meeting a surgeon. Could you share that.

Story, oh, with my sister.

Story, oh, with my sister.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, So my sister's intellectually disabled, so i'm her guardian. She's older than me, and so I tend to a lot of her medical decisions. And she lives in a wonderful community. She needed surgery, so it's part of the process in terms of getting that set up. But I didn't go to the initial meetings with the surgeon, but her house leader was telling me that the surgeon was great, that she explained everything to Funat who doesn't have a big vocabulary or you know, an intellectual understanding of what's happening. But she's very motion like mature, and she was feeling comfortable with the surgeon. So she lives in upstate New York, and so I went up for the day of the surgery. And the hospital is pretty white. It's a fairly rural area, and everyone in the preoper room was white except for one Filipino nurse. There were you know, white anesthesiologists, you know, white assisting surgeon and the other nurses. And then the doctor came in, doctor Laborde, and she was a young, dark skinned black woman, and I was completely surprised because even though I knew she was a woman, because they had been referring to her, so I just naturally assumed that she was white. And by naturally, I mean, you know, I was thinking the culture's thoughts that we hear doctor, and we might think male, but maybe we've evolved beyond that to think, okay, it could be a woman. But you know, even though I've had black doctors, I grew up in DC, and you know, I was fortunate to have doctors that look like me growing up that I just sort of absorbed this idea that this doctor was going to be a white doctor. And I was just so you know, embarrassed at my own mind, but also could thankfully as a mindfulness teacher and someone who you know. A week later, I think was giving a talk on unconscious bias at a big conference for doctors and nurses, medical people working in hospice care. And you know, I could also laugh at myself and use this as an example that we don't have to take our thoughts personally. Yeah, you know, this is not because I'm a bad person. It becomes a problem when I don't take responsibility for it and start to question that and you know, start to work on changing those unconscious beliefs.

Yeah, So my sister's intellectually disabled, so i'm her guardian. She's older than me, and so I tend to a lot of her medical decisions. And she lives in a wonderful community. She needed surgery, so it's part of the process in terms of getting that set up. But I didn't go to the initial meetings with the surgeon, but her house leader was telling me that the surgeon was great, that she explained everything to Funat who doesn't have a big vocabulary or you know, an intellectual understanding of what's happening. But she's very motion like mature, and she was feeling comfortable with the surgeon. So she lives in upstate New York, and so I went up for the day of the surgery. And the hospital is pretty white. It's a fairly rural area, and everyone in the preoper room was white except for one Filipino nurse. There were you know, white anesthesiologists, you know, white assisting surgeon and the other nurses. And then the doctor came in, doctor Laborde, and she was a young, dark skinned black woman, and I was completely surprised because even though I knew she was a woman, because they had been referring to her, so I just naturally assumed that she was white. And by naturally, I mean, you know, I was thinking the culture's thoughts that we hear doctor, and we might think male, but maybe we've evolved beyond that to think, okay, it could be a woman. But you know, even though I've had black doctors, I grew up in DC, and you know, I was fortunate to have doctors that look like me growing up that I just sort of absorbed this idea that this doctor was going to be a white doctor. And I was just so you know, embarrassed at my own mind, but also could thankfully as a mindfulness teacher and someone who you know. A week later, I think was giving a talk on unconscious bias at a big conference for doctors and nurses, medical people working in hospice care. And you know, I could also laugh at myself and use this as an example that we don't have to take our thoughts personally. Yeah, you know, this is not because I'm a bad person. It becomes a problem when I don't take responsibility for it and start to question that and you know, start to work on changing those unconscious beliefs.

I love that story because I think it shows that unconscious bias even among your own race. You know, it's not my fault that I thought that, but I'm responsible for working on it. And that was a really powerful idea I got last year. We had Ibram x Kendy on the show and was talking to him and this idea that I can absolutely have racist thoughts. You know, we tend to say I'm not racist as if it's an identity, and it was really powerful for me to realize and to start to be more comfortable with saying that's a racist thought I had. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person, but I have to own up and say that's what that was.

I love that story because I think it shows that unconscious bias even among your own race. You know, it's not my fault that I thought that, but I'm responsible for working on it. And that was a really powerful idea I got last year. We had Ibram x Kendy on the show and was talking to him and this idea that I can absolutely have racist thoughts. You know, we tend to say I'm not racist as if it's an identity, and it was really powerful for me to realize and to start to be more comfortable with saying that's a racist thought I had. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person, but I have to own up and say that's what that was.

Yeah, And you know that's the maybe later step. You have to first even see it, and that's the hard work, yeah, because there has to be a willingness to see it. There has to be the openness, and then there has to be the capacity. And that's really the practice, because if you're not used to even examining what's going on inside, you know, this stuff is just going to roll by. And that's where the defensive NIF comes in because you're not even seeing what people are pointing to. And this can happen in all of us and also even the most practiced of us. That's the challenge that many practitioners of color have come up against in spiritual communities, where there is the assumption that there's this attention to our thoughts and our behaviors and unconscious patterning in particular ways, but there's a whole layer that it has never been examined and has never been really seen, because you know, we need some kind of larger awareness of what it is. You know, we don't know what it is. We don't know, and so there can be thoughts, speech actions that are actually revealing a lot of unconscious bias and it's just not even really acknowledged by people.

Yeah, And you know that's the maybe later step. You have to first even see it, and that's the hard work, yeah, because there has to be a willingness to see it. There has to be the openness, and then there has to be the capacity. And that's really the practice, because if you're not used to even examining what's going on inside, you know, this stuff is just going to roll by. And that's where the defensive NIF comes in because you're not even seeing what people are pointing to. And this can happen in all of us and also even the most practiced of us. That's the challenge that many practitioners of color have come up against in spiritual communities, where there is the assumption that there's this attention to our thoughts and our behaviors and unconscious patterning in particular ways, but there's a whole layer that it has never been examined and has never been really seen, because you know, we need some kind of larger awareness of what it is. You know, we don't know what it is. We don't know, and so there can be thoughts, speech actions that are actually revealing a lot of unconscious bias and it's just not even really acknowledged by people.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, so head on over to oneufeed dot com, net slash SMS and let's feed our good wolves together. I think you do a nice job in the book of talking about that and saying, hey, you know, I don't remember exactly the way you phrase it, but it gave me a little bit of laugh But it was basically like, hey, unconscious bias is unconscious as in you don't know you have it, you know, the very definition of it, which is such a great way to think of it. It's like, well, yeah, I don't see what I don't see.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, so head on over to oneufeed dot com, net slash SMS and let's feed our good wolves together. I think you do a nice job in the book of talking about that and saying, hey, you know, I don't remember exactly the way you phrase it, but it gave me a little bit of laugh But it was basically like, hey, unconscious bias is unconscious as in you don't know you have it, you know, the very definition of it, which is such a great way to think of it. It's like, well, yeah, I don't see what I don't see.

Right, Yeah, But if you have been practicing for a really long time, or you know, you feel pretty aware of a lot of things, there can be that bypassing to bring that up again, to think that you do see what you don't see. Yeah, you know, because you've seen a lot. And I like to say, just because you've seen the nature of reality, it doesn't mean you understand anything.

Right, Yeah, But if you have been practicing for a really long time, or you know, you feel pretty aware of a lot of things, there can be that bypassing to bring that up again, to think that you do see what you don't see. Yeah, you know, because you've seen a lot. And I like to say, just because you've seen the nature of reality, it doesn't mean you understand anything.

It's interesting because it's the same thing with cognitive bias. Right, we learn about cognitive bias, and yet most of us hope that's interesting. I see how my friend Bob has that, and I can sure see how my wife has that, but it actually doesn't for most people penetrate like, oh, I have those, you know. So it's an interesting question to sort of be asking on a regular basis, like I know I have them. What am I missing here? It's a curiosity, It can be a curiosity.

It's interesting because it's the same thing with cognitive bias. Right, we learn about cognitive bias, and yet most of us hope that's interesting. I see how my friend Bob has that, and I can sure see how my wife has that, but it actually doesn't for most people penetrate like, oh, I have those, you know. So it's an interesting question to sort of be asking on a regular basis, like I know I have them. What am I missing here? It's a curiosity, It can be a curiosity.

Yeah. I often bring up the issue of fat bias or fat phobia, which is something that I have been having my eyes open to more and more over the years because certain students and people who admit on retreat or you know, just different folks pointed things out to me that I never knew, you know. And much like racial stereotypes or racial biases that are unfounded, you know, there are a lot of ideas we have about fat people and then not to mention our unconscious biases or aversions to fatness that you know, it's really shocking where we start to really look at it in ourselves and then towards others, and it's been quite humbling. Actually.

Yeah. I often bring up the issue of fat bias or fat phobia, which is something that I have been having my eyes open to more and more over the years because certain students and people who admit on retreat or you know, just different folks pointed things out to me that I never knew, you know. And much like racial stereotypes or racial biases that are unfounded, you know, there are a lot of ideas we have about fat people and then not to mention our unconscious biases or aversions to fatness that you know, it's really shocking where we start to really look at it in ourselves and then towards others, and it's been quite humbling. Actually.

You talk a lot about how belonging really starts with our body and with embodied practice. It's a term it's being used a lot these days. Embodied say a little bit about what it means to you.

You talk a lot about how belonging really starts with our body and with embodied practice. It's a term it's being used a lot these days. Embodied say a little bit about what it means to you.

For years, I really practiced mostly with my head. You know. There was a way in which I was constantly trying to figure out the practice, and there was a real disconnection from the body, and which I think is pretty common in our contemporary culture, that we are head centered, you know, rational oriented, modernist people. That's such a feature of modernity, you know, the rational and the cognitive rules. And so for me, even just starting to feel that I had a body to actually listen to the classical teachings in a deeper way, not as they were filtered through some of my teachers who kind of pushed the mind of mindfulness more than anything. And recognizing that so many of these ancient teachings are fully embodied. They're often paired with embodied practices, you know, be it chigong or yoga or tai chi, that there are ways for us to come into an experiential embodied presence that is about that energy. When you asked me about connecting to the absolute, those are embodied experiences of it. I didn't experience it in my head. I experience it as really starting to connect to that vibratory energy. So for me, just on a fundamental level, like being able to feel the body was a hurdle and I really had to learn that, and I find that I'm often having to teach that to people that they don't quite know how to actually sense the body. And that is such a powerful and really revolutionary experience that leads on to so much more awareness. So that when we start working with thoughts and emotions, and especially difficult emotions or traumatic memories, that that capacity to be in our bodies lends so much support to unraveling that and to actually cultivating a sense of well being. We can't really have a sense of wellbeing that's only in our heads. There is an ease and a wellness that comes only through the body, or especially through the body.

For years, I really practiced mostly with my head. You know. There was a way in which I was constantly trying to figure out the practice, and there was a real disconnection from the body, and which I think is pretty common in our contemporary culture, that we are head centered, you know, rational oriented, modernist people. That's such a feature of modernity, you know, the rational and the cognitive rules. And so for me, even just starting to feel that I had a body to actually listen to the classical teachings in a deeper way, not as they were filtered through some of my teachers who kind of pushed the mind of mindfulness more than anything. And recognizing that so many of these ancient teachings are fully embodied. They're often paired with embodied practices, you know, be it chigong or yoga or tai chi, that there are ways for us to come into an experiential embodied presence that is about that energy. When you asked me about connecting to the absolute, those are embodied experiences of it. I didn't experience it in my head. I experience it as really starting to connect to that vibratory energy. So for me, just on a fundamental level, like being able to feel the body was a hurdle and I really had to learn that, and I find that I'm often having to teach that to people that they don't quite know how to actually sense the body. And that is such a powerful and really revolutionary experience that leads on to so much more awareness. So that when we start working with thoughts and emotions, and especially difficult emotions or traumatic memories, that that capacity to be in our bodies lends so much support to unraveling that and to actually cultivating a sense of well being. We can't really have a sense of wellbeing that's only in our heads. There is an ease and a wellness that comes only through the body, or especially through the body.

Embodiment or embodied practices, Do you mean the same thing as somatic That's another term that is used a lot. Are those interchangeable in your mind or is there a distinction there?

Embodiment or embodied practices, Do you mean the same thing as somatic That's another term that is used a lot. Are those interchangeable in your mind or is there a distinction there?

I don't see a distinction. There might be a semantic difference that I don't know about. But for me, sometimes when people talk about embodied practices or somatic practices, they're talking about those movement practices like yoga and taichi. I'm really talking about practicing meditation and stillness, but with an awareness or an attention to the body.

I don't see a distinction. There might be a semantic difference that I don't know about. But for me, sometimes when people talk about embodied practices or somatic practices, they're talking about those movement practices like yoga and taichi. I'm really talking about practicing meditation and stillness, but with an awareness or an attention to the body.

You say, for many people it can be difficult to know the difference between feeling bodily sensations and simply thinking about the body. Is there a ground rule or a way that you have of sort of knowing whether somebody's actually feeling what's going on versus thinking about the body. How do you tell where somebody.

You say, for many people it can be difficult to know the difference between feeling bodily sensations and simply thinking about the body. Is there a ground rule or a way that you have of sort of knowing whether somebody's actually feeling what's going on versus thinking about the body. How do you tell where somebody.

Is if it's a room full of people, I can't tell. So I give a lot of cues and so invite people to feel the pressure to understand how the heat is being distributed, or you know, if I'm having them sense their feet to notice that there's a difference between the outside of their feet and the inner feet, can they send just one toe at a time, and you know, sort of taking them through all these different cues that helps them to start to bring in a liveness to the sense of their understanding of the body, so that they, you know, start to notice sensation, vibration, pressure, pulsing, temperature on the surface versus temperature inside. And so giving a lot of cues if I'm working with someone individually, you know, then I can start to ask them questions and have them reflect back to me what they're feeling so that I can understand better.

Is if it's a room full of people, I can't tell. So I give a lot of cues and so invite people to feel the pressure to understand how the heat is being distributed, or you know, if I'm having them sense their feet to notice that there's a difference between the outside of their feet and the inner feet, can they send just one toe at a time, and you know, sort of taking them through all these different cues that helps them to start to bring in a liveness to the sense of their understanding of the body, so that they, you know, start to notice sensation, vibration, pressure, pulsing, temperature on the surface versus temperature inside. And so giving a lot of cues if I'm working with someone individually, you know, then I can start to ask them questions and have them reflect back to me what they're feeling so that I can understand better.

And have you found that, like mindfulness or meditation in general, is a skill that we get better at.

And have you found that, like mindfulness or meditation in general, is a skill that we get better at.

Yes, yeah, you know, I'm living proof of that that I did not have an embodied sense of myself and definitely not in my practice for years. And so the fact that you know, as I'm talking to you, I can actually feel my feet on the floor and that's you know, part of my kind of fluctuating awareness as we're speaking, is testament to that.

Yes, yeah, you know, I'm living proof of that that I did not have an embodied sense of myself and definitely not in my practice for years. And so the fact that you know, as I'm talking to you, I can actually feel my feet on the floor and that's you know, part of my kind of fluctuating awareness as we're speaking, is testament to that.

Yeah, I think I have a long way to go, but I have also made progress in that area. Where in the beginning when it was like feel this, I was like, like, do I have feet? I mean I assume I do. I remember for a while I practiced with these Reggie Ray tapes.

Yeah, I think I have a long way to go, but I have also made progress in that area. Where in the beginning when it was like feel this, I was like, like, do I have feet? I mean I assume I do. I remember for a while I practiced with these Reggie Ray tapes.

Yeah, he's great with that.

Yeah, he's great with that.

And he would say, like, notice the personality of your big toe, and I'd be like, what is what I mean?

And he would say, like, notice the personality of your big toe, and I'd be like, what is what I mean?

First?

First?

That still makes me laugh. It just it's a funny thing to say, I think, but I got much better at body practice by practicing in the shower because there was enough going on sensation wise, enough change in variability that I actually had something I could work with, you know. And then over time, you know, I got more subtle, but I have a long way to go with it.

That still makes me laugh. It just it's a funny thing to say, I think, but I got much better at body practice by practicing in the shower because there was enough going on sensation wise, enough change in variability that I actually had something I could work with, you know. And then over time, you know, I got more subtle, but I have a long way to go with it.

Yeah. I used to work at a meditation center and Reggie Rays Group rented it once and he came in and it was packed with chain and people everywhere, and the first thing he had people do was lie down on the floor, and there was really no room, and so people were like lying under their chairs and sideways, and people's feet were in people's head. And I was really impressed by that, because I know for myself, like I really, I do have to lie down when I feel disembodied, because sitting up there's a way in which so much of my energy is keeping my body up. And when I'm lying down, I can really feel the whole length of the floor, I can feel supported, I can feel so many points of contact with the earth that you know, that sense of embodiment comes much more alive.

Yeah. I used to work at a meditation center and Reggie Rays Group rented it once and he came in and it was packed with chain and people everywhere, and the first thing he had people do was lie down on the floor, and there was really no room, and so people were like lying under their chairs and sideways, and people's feet were in people's head. And I was really impressed by that, because I know for myself, like I really, I do have to lie down when I feel disembodied, because sitting up there's a way in which so much of my energy is keeping my body up. And when I'm lying down, I can really feel the whole length of the floor, I can feel supported, I can feel so many points of contact with the earth that you know, that sense of embodiment comes much more alive.

In the book, you talk a little bit about inter reception, the process by which we sort of sense our internal body. You also then talk about one of the central practices and mindfulness is around vedonna, which is this often translated you say, is feeling tone, which is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Is inter reception, the scientific name for what we're driving at with verdonna.

In the book, you talk a little bit about inter reception, the process by which we sort of sense our internal body. You also then talk about one of the central practices and mindfulness is around vedonna, which is this often translated you say, is feeling tone, which is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Is inter reception, the scientific name for what we're driving at with verdonna.

Vedana is definitely part of interception. I'm trying to reflect if there's any part of interception that's not only vedana.

Vedana is definitely part of interception. I'm trying to reflect if there's any part of interception that's not only vedana.

And I guess I'm pronouncing it wrong when I say veidana, because when I've read about each of them separately, I've been like that this sounds like a very similar thing, because when I tune into my body, there's often that very basic I like it, I don't like it, or I don't really notice it.

And I guess I'm pronouncing it wrong when I say veidana, because when I've read about each of them separately, I've been like that this sounds like a very similar thing, because when I tune into my body, there's often that very basic I like it, I don't like it, or I don't really notice it.

Yeah, you know, I've always understood veidana not so much about liking or not liking. That comes in the classical teaching. It's talked about as sankara. You know, that's that's sort of the action of liking or not liking. Veadana is just a perception, So it's actually just the perceiving quality, or it's related to the perceiving quality of just knowing. Actually, Vadana and sonya perception both are rooted to panya, which is wisdom, so they all have this quality of just knowing. They all have the same roots, so they know what's happening. That's why they're so connected to interception. So it's just knowing whether something is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Sankara. I know I'm getting really nerdy here, but I'm a nerd, so please. And Kara is the same root as karma or comma. And you know, comma just means action, Karma just means action. So sankara is the action of moving towards or away or not. So that's the liking not liking when we move towards something or not. So, yeah, it helps me just understand that distinction so that I can be with something unpleasant without any need to like or dislike. Right, that's the freedom.

Yeah, you know, I've always understood veidana not so much about liking or not liking. That comes in the classical teaching. It's talked about as sankara. You know, that's that's sort of the action of liking or not liking. Veadana is just a perception, So it's actually just the perceiving quality, or it's related to the perceiving quality of just knowing. Actually, Vadana and sonya perception both are rooted to panya, which is wisdom, so they all have this quality of just knowing. They all have the same roots, so they know what's happening. That's why they're so connected to interception. So it's just knowing whether something is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Sankara. I know I'm getting really nerdy here, but I'm a nerd, so please. And Kara is the same root as karma or comma. And you know, comma just means action, Karma just means action. So sankara is the action of moving towards or away or not. So that's the liking not liking when we move towards something or not. So, yeah, it helps me just understand that distinction so that I can be with something unpleasant without any need to like or dislike. Right, that's the freedom.

It's so interesting how those two happen so fast.

It's so interesting how those two happen so fast.

They're all happening at the same time. So it's not even that they are like separate experiences, like all of the five aggregates arise at the same moment. Right.

They're all happening at the same time. So it's not even that they are like separate experiences, like all of the five aggregates arise at the same moment. Right.

Interesting. I've never heard anybody say that before. I've heard people talk about how they're not really separate, how we're sort of making distinctions that don't exist. I've always thought of it somewhat sequentially.

Interesting. I've never heard anybody say that before. I've heard people talk about how they're not really separate, how we're sort of making distinctions that don't exist. I've always thought of it somewhat sequentially.

Yeah, there might be the like stopping time Jedi master version of seeing them in their sequence. Yeah, so that we can separate it out, But for most of us, it's just a rising moment to moment to moment to moment.

Yeah, there might be the like stopping time Jedi master version of seeing them in their sequence. Yeah, so that we can separate it out, But for most of us, it's just a rising moment to moment to moment to moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In a little while we're going to go into the post show conversation. You're going to lead us in a short meditation. That's one of your favorite practices around embodiment, which is an elements practice. So I'm not going to talk about what that is except to say it's a great practice. We'll do that in the post show conversation. But I think where I want to kind of wrap us up here is you talk about being at the heart of the Buddhist path are ethical teachings? Really, all of our religious traditions, there are these ethical teachings, and we tend to like to sort of skip by them, particularly in our modern interpretation of a lot of these. We don't really like them. We don't like the term moral, we don't like them idea. But you talk about them. But you described the five precepts in what to me was a really interesting way. I had not heard them before. You phrase them slightly differently, and I really liked it, and I thought I would just maybe walk through each of those and you could just briefly talk about them for a second.

In a little while we're going to go into the post show conversation. You're going to lead us in a short meditation. That's one of your favorite practices around embodiment, which is an elements practice. So I'm not going to talk about what that is except to say it's a great practice. We'll do that in the post show conversation. But I think where I want to kind of wrap us up here is you talk about being at the heart of the Buddhist path are ethical teachings? Really, all of our religious traditions, there are these ethical teachings, and we tend to like to sort of skip by them, particularly in our modern interpretation of a lot of these. We don't really like them. We don't like the term moral, we don't like them idea. But you talk about them. But you described the five precepts in what to me was a really interesting way. I had not heard them before. You phrase them slightly differently, and I really liked it, and I thought I would just maybe walk through each of those and you could just briefly talk about them for a second.

Yeah, and just didn't note they're not my phrasing.

Yeah, and just didn't note they're not my phrasing.

Okay.

Okay.

The first is to honor life, which is traditionally said, as I've read it, do not kill.

The first is to honor life, which is traditionally said, as I've read it, do not kill.

Yes, but I like.

Yes, but I like.

That phrasing of honoring life. How do those mean different things to you?

That phrasing of honoring life. How do those mean different things to you?

Or do they They do mean different things to me. You know, there's a way in which gratitude and I talk about gratitude earlier in the book, is so central. You know, we started talking about the wolf and being grateful for the bad wolf as well as part of the process. And so there is harm. That's part of being human, and so whatever steps we take to do the least amount of harm possible, you know, whether that's being a vegan or speaking out against war, there's a way in which we have to acknowledge that we all are going to bring harm in some way or another, so that honoring of life really becomes about being clear about what our values are and making those decisions with the commitment to the least harm possible. And you know, for some of us who choose to eat eggs, or drink milk, or maybe that means only buying those things from humane sources and knowing what our food chain is involved in, or you know where our products come from and whether they're tested on animals or so. It really becomes about a bigger picture of honoring life, not just what it means to kill something or not.