We all know that good habits are ways that we bring what we value into the world, and we each have our own list of what matters to us. Maybe you want to feel more energetic, improve your relationships, have a tidy your home, cook more instead of eating out four nights a week. Whatever habit you want to build, it's entirely possible to make it happen. But if you feel under equipped and overwhelmed to make real sustainable change, you are not alone. And that's why I've made my free masterclass open to everyone and available to watch anytime.

We all know that good habits are ways that we bring what we value into the world, and we each have our own list of what matters to us. Maybe you want to feel more energetic, improve your relationships, have a tidy your home, cook more instead of eating out four nights a week. Whatever habit you want to build, it's entirely possible to make it happen. But if you feel under equipped and overwhelmed to make real sustainable change, you are not alone. And that's why I've made my free masterclass open to everyone and available to watch anytime.

Now.

Now.

It's called Habits that Stick How to be remarkably consistent no matter what goal you set. You can grab it at oneufeed dot net slash habits. Again, it's free and you can watch it whenever it works for you. Go to one you feed dot net slash habits.

It's called Habits that Stick How to be remarkably consistent no matter what goal you set. You can grab it at oneufeed dot net slash habits. Again, it's free and you can watch it whenever it works for you. Go to one you feed dot net slash habits.

That's the whole midlife crisis thing, right. It's because all of a sudden, you like, stop doing what the world tells you're supposed to be doing, and your parents tell you what you're supposed to be doing, and then you go out and you're like, I'm doing what I want.

That's the whole midlife crisis thing, right. It's because all of a sudden, you like, stop doing what the world tells you're supposed to be doing, and your parents tell you what you're supposed to be doing, and then you go out and you're like, I'm doing what I want.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. A guest on this episode is Carmen Rita Wong. She's a writer, speaker, investor, and advisor to women own businesses. Carmen is a former national television host, magazine advice columnist, and faculty professor. She was vice chair of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and board director at The Moth. She also hosts a podcast and is currently working on her sixth the book. Today, Carmen and Eric discuss her book Why Didn't You Tell Me, a memoir Hi Carmen.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. A guest on this episode is Carmen Rita Wong. She's a writer, speaker, investor, and advisor to women own businesses. Carmen is a former national television host, magazine advice columnist, and faculty professor. She was vice chair of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and board director at The Moth. She also hosts a podcast and is currently working on her sixth the book. Today, Carmen and Eric discuss her book Why Didn't You Tell Me, a memoir Hi Carmen.

Welcome to the show.

Welcome to the show.

Hi Eric, thank you so much for having me.

Hi Eric, thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book called Why Didn't You Tell Me? A Memoir? But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with her grandchild and I say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I'm really excited to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book called Why Didn't You Tell Me? A Memoir? But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with her grandchild and I say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I actually love this parable error because I've told it to my daughter a few times with a little twist on it. Because I've spent many years of self examination and all sorts of things, including therapy, to figure out those wolves. And what I have found most helpful for me is not giving them kind of this bad good or any kind of judgment on the one that's not creative, meaning like the one that's destructive that we'll call it. And I've learned that that wolf, for me is a child. It's me as a child, and our childish emotions, fear, ego, resentment, just all of those feelings that are actually of protection. We want to protect ourselves. So it's not that I need to starve it. Instead, I just kind of do, like I love dogs, and I'm I have to myself and I just know, like even some of the most unfriendly dogs are, there's a way to approach them where not all of them. Please don't take that advice, but just I pat it on his head, you know, and I say, I hear you, I hear you. I got you. Settle down. So that's how I treat the wolves and the other wolf. I try to like get it to hang out a little bit more, get a little louder, play a little bit more. But yeah, that's really worked for me.

I actually love this parable error because I've told it to my daughter a few times with a little twist on it. Because I've spent many years of self examination and all sorts of things, including therapy, to figure out those wolves. And what I have found most helpful for me is not giving them kind of this bad good or any kind of judgment on the one that's not creative, meaning like the one that's destructive that we'll call it. And I've learned that that wolf, for me is a child. It's me as a child, and our childish emotions, fear, ego, resentment, just all of those feelings that are actually of protection. We want to protect ourselves. So it's not that I need to starve it. Instead, I just kind of do, like I love dogs, and I'm I have to myself and I just know, like even some of the most unfriendly dogs are, there's a way to approach them where not all of them. Please don't take that advice, but just I pat it on his head, you know, and I say, I hear you, I hear you. I got you. Settle down. So that's how I treat the wolves and the other wolf. I try to like get it to hang out a little bit more, get a little louder, play a little bit more. But yeah, that's really worked for me.

That's great. What kind of dogs do you have?

That's great. What kind of dogs do you have?

I have a rescue and she's fourteen, Gloria. We got her in Brooklyn, and she came with a name so Gloria sticks and the other one's a little pandemic puppy. He's two, and he's named cubert Ah.

I have a rescue and she's fourteen, Gloria. We got her in Brooklyn, and she came with a name so Gloria sticks and the other one's a little pandemic puppy. He's two, and he's named cubert Ah.

And what type of dog is Gloria?

And what type of dog is Gloria?

Funny enough, you know, me and the DNA tests did a little doggy DNA. I mean it was the best, like thirty eight bucks I've spent. We thought she was a puggle, but she is like four things, and I've actually kind of forgot because when it comes to dogs, it's more just like who is she as a dog? Let me tell you. Yeah, she's seventeen pounds of diva.

Funny enough, you know, me and the DNA tests did a little doggy DNA. I mean it was the best, like thirty eight bucks I've spent. We thought she was a puggle, but she is like four things, and I've actually kind of forgot because when it comes to dogs, it's more just like who is she as a dog? Let me tell you. Yeah, she's seventeen pounds of diva.

Is she doing okay at her age?

Is she doing okay at her age?

Oh my gosh, it's amazing. She's been in great health. She has some arthritis, you know, just like Granny. She's on Gaba penin, you know what I mean. But she's but she's still walking around. And the funny thing is is that getting that puppy in the pandemic who's like this tiny, little wiry poodle thing. They said that he gave her like two years of life because she was already kind of on a downward and then ever since he's been around, now she's jumping and running around and he loves her like crazy. It's adorable.

Oh my gosh, it's amazing. She's been in great health. She has some arthritis, you know, just like Granny. She's on Gaba penin, you know what I mean. But she's but she's still walking around. And the funny thing is is that getting that puppy in the pandemic who's like this tiny, little wiry poodle thing. They said that he gave her like two years of life because she was already kind of on a downward and then ever since he's been around, now she's jumping and running around and he loves her like crazy. It's adorable.

Yeah, I've got an old lady. She's not doing as well. Oh my black legs are kind of failing her. And yeah, she's i think almost fourteen. She's a little Loston Terrier.

Yeah, I've got an old lady. She's not doing as well. Oh my black legs are kind of failing her. And yeah, she's i think almost fourteen. She's a little Loston Terrier.

Oh beautiful. Yeah, I'm very concerned, and it's we were taking it really day by day and just yeah, I've unfortunately lost many dogs.

Oh beautiful. Yeah, I'm very concerned, and it's we were taking it really day by day and just yeah, I've unfortunately lost many dogs.

Yep. Podcasts listens are going to be like she's still around, because I mean I've been talking about her demise for six months, you know, because I thought for sure, like it's imminent, and she just keeps outlasting, you know, which is good. I'm glad to have her, yes, but it's on my mind a lot, Like I wish she could just tell me like is it times we are you know? Or how's your quality of life? You know? But anyway, all right, we're off topic. But I could talk about dogs all day.

Yep. Podcasts listens are going to be like she's still around, because I mean I've been talking about her demise for six months, you know, because I thought for sure, like it's imminent, and she just keeps outlasting, you know, which is good. I'm glad to have her, yes, but it's on my mind a lot, Like I wish she could just tell me like is it times we are you know? Or how's your quality of life? You know? But anyway, all right, we're off topic. But I could talk about dogs all day.

I don't mean too.

I don't mean too.

What you said about the wolves is interesting because one of the things that I'm struck by in your book, and I've heard you refer to this elsewhere, is I mean, there's a lot of people in the book who do things that we might conventionally say are not good. They're lying, they're selling drugs, they're abusive, they're they're all kinds of things, right, And a lot of that is pointed at you, but not exclusively. But you do a really nice job of saying like, no one's a villain, and I've heard you sort of say, you know, everyone is a product of their times, their place. I just wonder if you could share a little bit more about how you've arrived at that place with people, and how does that inform your view looking out at the world as a whole, not just your own family.

What you said about the wolves is interesting because one of the things that I'm struck by in your book, and I've heard you refer to this elsewhere, is I mean, there's a lot of people in the book who do things that we might conventionally say are not good. They're lying, they're selling drugs, they're abusive, they're they're all kinds of things, right, And a lot of that is pointed at you, but not exclusively. But you do a really nice job of saying like, no one's a villain, and I've heard you sort of say, you know, everyone is a product of their times, their place. I just wonder if you could share a little bit more about how you've arrived at that place with people, and how does that inform your view looking out at the world as a whole, not just your own family.

That's a big one, Eric. I'll say this though, it doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility. I want to make that very clear upfront. Understanding people as human beings does not absolve them responsibility. It does not mean you forgive them, It does not mean they can get away with it. But it does help you look at your own life and other people's lives in a way that's almost a little impersonal. I don't want to say dispersonal, but just you see them as people separate from you. Our ego is a big thing, you know, and it attaches us to things, and it takes things very personally, and it's this that the other. But maybe that person's having a bad day. Maybe that person got bad news. All of those things with me in order to process and understand and answer that question that I'm asking my mother's ghost, right, why didn't you tell me this tremendous secret of my life? I, as you read the book, can see that I had a very difficult mother and relationship and family and all of that. So in order to find peace myself, I had to see her something else besides my mother. I had to see her as a person, just a person, just a person who She was a child. She was a helpless child with her own abuse and her vicious, vicious abuse. She was born of a time when she had very few choices. She was brought to this country again no choices, married off by her father, horrible situations she found herself in, and you know what she did, what she did with what she had. Now I could label it, and we can, and yes it was abusive, But I'll tell you this, Understanding her as a human being brought me so much peace. Understanding the people that hurt you as their own people, and not ever in reaction to you. Like for me, I stopped feeling like it was my fault. Why would you do that to me, and is this person mad at me? And why it's this is what's happening, this is why she's this way. I'm gonna be okay. And the funny thing is, Eric, is that when you start doing that to people, especially people that have really affected your lives, you do it to yourself. Meaning I'm kinder to myself for it, because it is that kind of idea of like, we're human beings. There's a lot that puts us together, and we can't take everything personally, we really can. And of course that's a little easier for me to say now with fifteen years of weekly therapy under my belt and unfortunately my mother being gone for almost twenty years. It took that long.

That's a big one, Eric. I'll say this though, it doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility. I want to make that very clear upfront. Understanding people as human beings does not absolve them responsibility. It does not mean you forgive them, It does not mean they can get away with it. But it does help you look at your own life and other people's lives in a way that's almost a little impersonal. I don't want to say dispersonal, but just you see them as people separate from you. Our ego is a big thing, you know, and it attaches us to things, and it takes things very personally, and it's this that the other. But maybe that person's having a bad day. Maybe that person got bad news. All of those things with me in order to process and understand and answer that question that I'm asking my mother's ghost, right, why didn't you tell me this tremendous secret of my life? I, as you read the book, can see that I had a very difficult mother and relationship and family and all of that. So in order to find peace myself, I had to see her something else besides my mother. I had to see her as a person, just a person, just a person who She was a child. She was a helpless child with her own abuse and her vicious, vicious abuse. She was born of a time when she had very few choices. She was brought to this country again no choices, married off by her father, horrible situations she found herself in, and you know what she did, what she did with what she had. Now I could label it, and we can, and yes it was abusive, But I'll tell you this, Understanding her as a human being brought me so much peace. Understanding the people that hurt you as their own people, and not ever in reaction to you. Like for me, I stopped feeling like it was my fault. Why would you do that to me, and is this person mad at me? And why it's this is what's happening, this is why she's this way. I'm gonna be okay. And the funny thing is, Eric, is that when you start doing that to people, especially people that have really affected your lives, you do it to yourself. Meaning I'm kinder to myself for it, because it is that kind of idea of like, we're human beings. There's a lot that puts us together, and we can't take everything personally, we really can. And of course that's a little easier for me to say now with fifteen years of weekly therapy under my belt and unfortunately my mother being gone for almost twenty years. It took that long.

Yeah, you write somewhere it's a lot easier to forgive people after they're.

Yeah, you write somewhere it's a lot easier to forgive people after they're.

Gone, right, Yeah, And I haven't forgiven her though, by the way, Okay, I don't know, no, because I believe that first of all, forgiveness, who does it serve? I'm looking for peace, I'm looking for peace. How do you get there? Well, forgiveness definitely serves the person who's hurts you, right, and you've already been hurt, So why are you doing something for them. I think they have to do something for you first. To be forgiven, you know, you have to get an apology and a change in behavior. And I've gotten either from any of my parents, So you know, to me, it's I have found peace. I see you as a human being. But forgiveness, yeah, you got to do something for it, right.

Gone, right, Yeah, And I haven't forgiven her though, by the way, Okay, I don't know, no, because I believe that first of all, forgiveness, who does it serve? I'm looking for peace, I'm looking for peace. How do you get there? Well, forgiveness definitely serves the person who's hurts you, right, and you've already been hurt, So why are you doing something for them. I think they have to do something for you first. To be forgiven, you know, you have to get an apology and a change in behavior. And I've gotten either from any of my parents, So you know, to me, it's I have found peace. I see you as a human being. But forgiveness, yeah, you got to do something for it, right.

The studies that have been published that you know, people who study forgiveness will say something very similar. It's exceptionally difficult to forgive an unacknowledged crime, for lack of a better word, right, unless someone has come and said they're sorry. It's very difficult to forgive. It's a key piece of it. And I think that distinction is helpful about making peace. It is you're sort of treading another line in there that I think is a really important line, particularly as we be a culture that is a much more aware of the impacts that our childhoods have had on us. Right, And I think the window of being a good parent has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. It's pretty narrow these days for you to be like, well, you did everything right, because of course you didn't, you know, it just feels like it's a shrinking window which I think in many ways there's a lot of good that has come from that. But I think that the thing that is difficult to get the balance right on is to say, because I see people on one end or the other, and I've been on both these ends, which one end is like everything was fine, my parents did the best they could, right, people are a product of their places. I'm fine, which does not acknowledge it all the impact that that had, or the other extreme is one of sort of almost giving all our power over to the parent who did this in that like, well, I'm this way because of all these things, and all the focus is on them, right, And I think what you're describing is this middle way where we say, yes, that had impact, and I need to work on healing that impact, like that's a very real thing, and carrying hate and blame doesn't really help me.

The studies that have been published that you know, people who study forgiveness will say something very similar. It's exceptionally difficult to forgive an unacknowledged crime, for lack of a better word, right, unless someone has come and said they're sorry. It's very difficult to forgive. It's a key piece of it. And I think that distinction is helpful about making peace. It is you're sort of treading another line in there that I think is a really important line, particularly as we be a culture that is a much more aware of the impacts that our childhoods have had on us. Right, And I think the window of being a good parent has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. It's pretty narrow these days for you to be like, well, you did everything right, because of course you didn't, you know, it just feels like it's a shrinking window which I think in many ways there's a lot of good that has come from that. But I think that the thing that is difficult to get the balance right on is to say, because I see people on one end or the other, and I've been on both these ends, which one end is like everything was fine, my parents did the best they could, right, people are a product of their places. I'm fine, which does not acknowledge it all the impact that that had, or the other extreme is one of sort of almost giving all our power over to the parent who did this in that like, well, I'm this way because of all these things, and all the focus is on them, right, And I think what you're describing is this middle way where we say, yes, that had impact, and I need to work on healing that impact, like that's a very real thing, and carrying hate and blame doesn't really help me.

Oh no, not at all. And the thing is that we have to understand that we're responsible for our own behavior, regardless of our childhoods and what happened to us, because that is the issue. When somebody hurts you and refuses to apologize or refuses to see how they've hurt you or that they've hurt you or acknowledge it or any of those things, you know, and they're saying, yes, but I suffered. You know, it's very dishonest. Right. We have to acknowledge other people's feelings, but we also have to acknowledge our own and take that responsibility. And I have been in therapy mostly not just because I knew I needed it because I had a really messed up childhood, but because I wanted a better life for myself, and I knew that that meant taking control of a lot of emotional things and I, you know, make better choices, of course, but also because I was parent myself. Yeah, and I always swore to myself if I ever became a parent, I did not want to be my mother. And we all say this, right, but guess what, we do have some ability to change that. Of course, there's epigenetics, and of course, like things are handed down in temperaments. I'm Latin, I yell a little bit, just a little bit, you know, but you're not gonna catch me screaming. I'll never insult or be little or all those other things. So it's really about me figuring my mother out, which helped me figure myself out, which then helped me figure my parenting better and stopping a long long chain of abuse and violence and lies.

Oh no, not at all. And the thing is that we have to understand that we're responsible for our own behavior, regardless of our childhoods and what happened to us, because that is the issue. When somebody hurts you and refuses to apologize or refuses to see how they've hurt you or that they've hurt you or acknowledge it or any of those things, you know, and they're saying, yes, but I suffered. You know, it's very dishonest. Right. We have to acknowledge other people's feelings, but we also have to acknowledge our own and take that responsibility. And I have been in therapy mostly not just because I knew I needed it because I had a really messed up childhood, but because I wanted a better life for myself, and I knew that that meant taking control of a lot of emotional things and I, you know, make better choices, of course, but also because I was parent myself. Yeah, and I always swore to myself if I ever became a parent, I did not want to be my mother. And we all say this, right, but guess what, we do have some ability to change that. Of course, there's epigenetics, and of course, like things are handed down in temperaments. I'm Latin, I yell a little bit, just a little bit, you know, but you're not gonna catch me screaming. I'll never insult or be little or all those other things. So it's really about me figuring my mother out, which helped me figure myself out, which then helped me figure my parenting better and stopping a long long chain of abuse and violence and lies.

Yeah and lies. Yeah.

Yeah and lies. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have a line about this that I really really loved, and you say, sometimes I have to remind myself that my mother may have blended the concrete, but I am the architect. And that is a really great way of sort of saying it. You know, as you said, we're still responsible. We've got to take the raw materials at hand and like an architect, make the best thing we can out of them.

You have a line about this that I really really loved, and you say, sometimes I have to remind myself that my mother may have blended the concrete, but I am the architect. And that is a really great way of sort of saying it. You know, as you said, we're still responsible. We've got to take the raw materials at hand and like an architect, make the best thing we can out of them.

Yeah. Absolutely, I love this story. I don't know if you heard recently this year that they found, you know, why is the concrete construction in Rome? How has it lasted so long? And it's all about what the concrete's made out of. And that brought me back to that line that I had there, and I said, well, oh damn, they got good concrete. That's like good parenting. What an advantage. But then I thought to myself, I'm like, Okay, well we know that, and so if the concrete's not great, what it means is is that I need to actively and possibly always be repairing. But to repair, I have to always be noticing the cracks knowing where the weaknesses are, paying attention to them, and then doing the best I can to really fill it in. And the Japanese also do that with the you know, the gold yobby faces back together. Wabbi Sabby's that so much because I've hung on to that since I first learned about it years ago and just said that is going to be my life, because I think for many of us who have difficult childhoods, we can really feel the weight of the ugliness and the brokenness. And instead you can make all those cracks just so beautiful. You can make beautiful things at all.

Yeah. Absolutely, I love this story. I don't know if you heard recently this year that they found, you know, why is the concrete construction in Rome? How has it lasted so long? And it's all about what the concrete's made out of. And that brought me back to that line that I had there, and I said, well, oh damn, they got good concrete. That's like good parenting. What an advantage. But then I thought to myself, I'm like, Okay, well we know that, and so if the concrete's not great, what it means is is that I need to actively and possibly always be repairing. But to repair, I have to always be noticing the cracks knowing where the weaknesses are, paying attention to them, and then doing the best I can to really fill it in. And the Japanese also do that with the you know, the gold yobby faces back together. Wabbi Sabby's that so much because I've hung on to that since I first learned about it years ago and just said that is going to be my life, because I think for many of us who have difficult childhoods, we can really feel the weight of the ugliness and the brokenness. And instead you can make all those cracks just so beautiful. You can make beautiful things at all.

That stuff totally. As you were saying that, I was thinking about I was in France last summer and some of the best Roman ruins are in southern France. Yeah, and there's an aqueduct there which is still standing in It is spectacular and there's nothing holding the pieces of concrete together. The concrete is so good and it's so perfectly placed. And as you were talking, I was like, yeah, so you could build an aqueduct that would last with other materials, but to your point, you would want to put more support into it than exists in that one, right, And I think those of us who have had challenges and over like the word overcome them, have made them beautiful, have learned to live with them, have been able to grow from them. I think that the thing we learn is what support we need, what that actually looks like. And it looks different for everybody. It could be therapy, it could just be exercise, and it could be fifty different things. But we figure that out and then we sort of remain committed to doing our best to watch for the cracks, like.

That stuff totally. As you were saying that, I was thinking about I was in France last summer and some of the best Roman ruins are in southern France. Yeah, and there's an aqueduct there which is still standing in It is spectacular and there's nothing holding the pieces of concrete together. The concrete is so good and it's so perfectly placed. And as you were talking, I was like, yeah, so you could build an aqueduct that would last with other materials, but to your point, you would want to put more support into it than exists in that one, right, And I think those of us who have had challenges and over like the word overcome them, have made them beautiful, have learned to live with them, have been able to grow from them. I think that the thing we learn is what support we need, what that actually looks like. And it looks different for everybody. It could be therapy, it could just be exercise, and it could be fifty different things. But we figure that out and then we sort of remain committed to doing our best to watch for the cracks, like.

You said, yeah, yeah, and then you know what, you get older and you are the architects, so you always could you know, add a new bedroom or you know, you can always be building. That's why I like that analogy. When it came to me, I'm like, I could just always be building and adjusting the blueprint.

You said, yeah, yeah, and then you know what, you get older and you are the architects, so you always could you know, add a new bedroom or you know, you can always be building. That's why I like that analogy. When it came to me, I'm like, I could just always be building and adjusting the blueprint.

Yeah. Yeah, it's such a good analogy. You know so much your book is about identity. Why don't you give us the short version of the book without revealing too much that you don't want to, but that at least gives the context for the ways in which your identity has sort of shifted over time, because I'd like to explore then identity a lie a little bit more deeply, but I think listeners need a little more context before we do that.

Yeah. Yeah, it's such a good analogy. You know so much your book is about identity. Why don't you give us the short version of the book without revealing too much that you don't want to, but that at least gives the context for the ways in which your identity has sort of shifted over time, because I'd like to explore then identity a lie a little bit more deeply, but I think listeners need a little more context before we do that.

Sure, well, the one sentence I'm going to give you is going to just start you off with a lot of identity. So I was born a Dominican mother and Chinese father in Harlem in New York City, and my mother divorced my Chinese father and moved us to New Hampshire with an Anglo father. My Chinese father and my Anglo father worked from completely two different worlds, and so that was very different. But my childhood started in the very very rich cultural atmosphere of you know, if you've seen the Heights, that was you know, my early childhood and Chinatown, which is pretty incredible. And then we went to New Hampshire and New Hampshire in the late seventies early eighties was not very welcoming to my older brother and I. He was six years older than me and we're you know, we're brown folk. My mother was lack Dominican, so we're Afro Latinos and it was very, very difficult. And it's one of those things where sometimes, you know, if you get to go through life not having to think about identity, God bless you. We don't have the choice and so it came down on us pretty hard. And you know, I went through life Carmen readA Walt and that has followed me through many things that has shaped so much of my life, whether it was the racism, the expectation, the low expectations of people, to being questioned all the time about what am I? Who am I? My mother very much wanting to assimilate, so not necessarily giving me the great answers or not necessarily telling me whole stories. And then of course in the end, what the book's really about is I find out if she's dying. I was thirty one years old and she was only fifty nine, that I was not Popy Wong's daughter, and my stepfather at the time is the one who tells me this. And then I find out a confront her. She's has a whole bunch of stories, more news stories about who it is. And then I had gotten this book, sold the book. It was in edits, and I was doing all this DNA testing and I hired genealogists and no one could figure out who my father was. You know, all those now that money later and all that research later, and a lot of dead ends which are really interesting actually that I write about in the book, and I'm in edits and I had to write the epilogue because in the end I found my paternal family, which is wild, but that origin story of going between Harlem and New Hampshire and Dominican and Chinese to New Hampshire, it was a lot. It was challenging, and I think for many people who have discovered that they have different parents than they thought they did, you know, there is always that added element. Of course, if they happened to be a different race, there's that too, or different culture. The book is really about me asking my mother that question, why didn't you tell me? And trying to answer it myself. And I wrote it, you know, page ternary thrillery type of mystery solving book because that's the way it felt, you know, I wanted you to feel it along with me, Like as I'm going through my life in this kind of like mystery of like who is this woman and why would she do such a thing? And all these characters that come into my life is just wild stuff. As my daughter would say, Mom, your life is crazy.

Sure, well, the one sentence I'm going to give you is going to just start you off with a lot of identity. So I was born a Dominican mother and Chinese father in Harlem in New York City, and my mother divorced my Chinese father and moved us to New Hampshire with an Anglo father. My Chinese father and my Anglo father worked from completely two different worlds, and so that was very different. But my childhood started in the very very rich cultural atmosphere of you know, if you've seen the Heights, that was you know, my early childhood and Chinatown, which is pretty incredible. And then we went to New Hampshire and New Hampshire in the late seventies early eighties was not very welcoming to my older brother and I. He was six years older than me and we're you know, we're brown folk. My mother was lack Dominican, so we're Afro Latinos and it was very, very difficult. And it's one of those things where sometimes, you know, if you get to go through life not having to think about identity, God bless you. We don't have the choice and so it came down on us pretty hard. And you know, I went through life Carmen readA Walt and that has followed me through many things that has shaped so much of my life, whether it was the racism, the expectation, the low expectations of people, to being questioned all the time about what am I? Who am I? My mother very much wanting to assimilate, so not necessarily giving me the great answers or not necessarily telling me whole stories. And then of course in the end, what the book's really about is I find out if she's dying. I was thirty one years old and she was only fifty nine, that I was not Popy Wong's daughter, and my stepfather at the time is the one who tells me this. And then I find out a confront her. She's has a whole bunch of stories, more news stories about who it is. And then I had gotten this book, sold the book. It was in edits, and I was doing all this DNA testing and I hired genealogists and no one could figure out who my father was. You know, all those now that money later and all that research later, and a lot of dead ends which are really interesting actually that I write about in the book, and I'm in edits and I had to write the epilogue because in the end I found my paternal family, which is wild, but that origin story of going between Harlem and New Hampshire and Dominican and Chinese to New Hampshire, it was a lot. It was challenging, and I think for many people who have discovered that they have different parents than they thought they did, you know, there is always that added element. Of course, if they happened to be a different race, there's that too, or different culture. The book is really about me asking my mother that question, why didn't you tell me? And trying to answer it myself. And I wrote it, you know, page ternary thrillery type of mystery solving book because that's the way it felt, you know, I wanted you to feel it along with me, Like as I'm going through my life in this kind of like mystery of like who is this woman and why would she do such a thing? And all these characters that come into my life is just wild stuff. As my daughter would say, Mom, your life is crazy.

Yeah, well, you know what, we tend to throw that word around pretty easy, like that's crazy, But yeah, your life is heading in that direction for sure. Like there's a lot of chaos and a lot of different cultural characters. I mean, your father is essentially a gangster in Chinatown, which you guys have no idea. You've got a pretty rich soup there.

Yeah, well, you know what, we tend to throw that word around pretty easy, like that's crazy, But yeah, your life is heading in that direction for sure. Like there's a lot of chaos and a lot of different cultural characters. I mean, your father is essentially a gangster in Chinatown, which you guys have no idea. You've got a pretty rich soup there.

Yes, between the fathers, you know, a Chinese gangster, right, and then the stepfather who's like graduate school of economics at Columbia. Like this was absolutely the juxtaposition of my life. But here's what I'll tell you, which is how and really why I really wanted to write the book. Wasn't just you know, for myself ton to the story. Of course, I absolutely love memoir, but I do believe the storytelling. And I know people say this a lot, but it is the truth. It is the most powerful thing. It's very much our humanity. This is a very American story. We just don't hear it, but there are millions out there like me, and we need to hear more American stories about you know, immigrant families and black, Latino, Asian, all kinds of families that really make up this country. Because I was made to feel completely as a child that I was lesser than, I was worthless, I was invisible, because I wasn't in school. Well this is in New Hampshire, of course I wasn't in the library. I wasn't talked about it in history like nothing or television. Yeah, and kids carry that with them a lot, even adults. So it's helped some people, which I'm happy to have heard from.

Yes, between the fathers, you know, a Chinese gangster, right, and then the stepfather who's like graduate school of economics at Columbia. Like this was absolutely the juxtaposition of my life. But here's what I'll tell you, which is how and really why I really wanted to write the book. Wasn't just you know, for myself ton to the story. Of course, I absolutely love memoir, but I do believe the storytelling. And I know people say this a lot, but it is the truth. It is the most powerful thing. It's very much our humanity. This is a very American story. We just don't hear it, but there are millions out there like me, and we need to hear more American stories about you know, immigrant families and black, Latino, Asian, all kinds of families that really make up this country. Because I was made to feel completely as a child that I was lesser than, I was worthless, I was invisible, because I wasn't in school. Well this is in New Hampshire, of course I wasn't in the library. I wasn't talked about it in history like nothing or television. Yeah, and kids carry that with them a lot, even adults. So it's helped some people, which I'm happy to have heard from.

Yeah, you describing moving to New Hampshire and being like the only I know you don't like this word, but I'll use it for ease of use, the only minority family because you were in that.

Yeah, you describing moving to New Hampshire and being like the only I know you don't like this word, but I'll use it for ease of use, the only minority family because you were in that.

Case you are usually brown, non white.

Case you are usually brown, non white.

Yeah, non white white.

Yeah, non white white.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brought back a memory for me, and one that I am not particularly proud of, which is that I grew up in sounds like very much like the neighborhood you grew up, and you talked about your mom ringing a dinner bell to bring everybody in right, same same sort of thing. Dad went off to the office with a briefcase and very generic suburban thing. But there were two Chinese families that lived in our neighborhood and they really were just on the outside, and I, as a child, I think I just internalized the sort of otherness towards them that was there. I don't know that I was ever, you know, outright mean, don't. I don't have any recollections of that, but the me today would respond very very differently than the me did then. You know, I think the kids just seemed strange to me and I didn't know what to do with that. And I hadn't thought of that in I mean, it's been a number of years, but I was reading your book and I was like, oh, I wish I knew where they were to be like, sorry, I didn't do better.

Brought back a memory for me, and one that I am not particularly proud of, which is that I grew up in sounds like very much like the neighborhood you grew up, and you talked about your mom ringing a dinner bell to bring everybody in right, same same sort of thing. Dad went off to the office with a briefcase and very generic suburban thing. But there were two Chinese families that lived in our neighborhood and they really were just on the outside, and I, as a child, I think I just internalized the sort of otherness towards them that was there. I don't know that I was ever, you know, outright mean, don't. I don't have any recollections of that, but the me today would respond very very differently than the me did then. You know, I think the kids just seemed strange to me and I didn't know what to do with that. And I hadn't thought of that in I mean, it's been a number of years, but I was reading your book and I was like, oh, I wish I knew where they were to be like, sorry, I didn't do better.

That's the thing is that it really starts with kids, right, and as parents, we got to understand that your kids absorb a lot from you. Yeah, and so you know, you instead of seeing, you know, neighborhood kids and being like they're just kids, they're just kids, Like Hi, what's up? You know, they're just kids, you know, and hanging out with them and being friends with them, it seemed odd or strange or weird. This happened with one of my nieces. She was very young, but we had all had gone out to dinner back in New Hampshire and years ago, and we went to Chinese food restaurant, which we love. The kids they local Chinese because they don't get to go there very often, and we were using chopsticks, and she said, this is weird, this is weird. I say, uh, honey, it's not weird. It's just different from the way you eat. There's billions of people who use chopsticks, billions, and they would think you're weird for using a fork. So let's just not call it that and say this is different, let me learn, let me try, tell me more about it.

That's the thing is that it really starts with kids, right, and as parents, we got to understand that your kids absorb a lot from you. Yeah, and so you know, you instead of seeing, you know, neighborhood kids and being like they're just kids, they're just kids, Like Hi, what's up? You know, they're just kids, you know, and hanging out with them and being friends with them, it seemed odd or strange or weird. This happened with one of my nieces. She was very young, but we had all had gone out to dinner back in New Hampshire and years ago, and we went to Chinese food restaurant, which we love. The kids they local Chinese because they don't get to go there very often, and we were using chopsticks, and she said, this is weird, this is weird. I say, uh, honey, it's not weird. It's just different from the way you eat. There's billions of people who use chopsticks, billions, and they would think you're weird for using a fork. So let's just not call it that and say this is different, let me learn, let me try, tell me more about it.

And that was the word that was used by the adults about these families. They're weird otherings, you know. And yeah, and again I had absolutely, you know, no context for which to do what you did, which is like, well, maybe compared against this very white background.

And that was the word that was used by the adults about these families. They're weird otherings, you know. And yeah, and again I had absolutely, you know, no context for which to do what you did, which is like, well, maybe compared against this very white background.

But yeah, just acknowledging the differences because once you realize that those differences, and that's another reason why I wrote the book, is like, look, that's what I'm saying. It's an American story because we all have parents that we don't get along with, we all have siblings that we have trouble with, we all have secrets in our family. We all sometimes feel like an outsider when we realize that people from other races and cultures, though they we all have our different kind of history and weight of living in this society, that we are people, that we can be curious and that we can learn, you know, seeing people's full human beings, like going backwards to what I was talking about about my mother, really makes a huge difference in how you see the world.

But yeah, just acknowledging the differences because once you realize that those differences, and that's another reason why I wrote the book, is like, look, that's what I'm saying. It's an American story because we all have parents that we don't get along with, we all have siblings that we have trouble with, we all have secrets in our family. We all sometimes feel like an outsider when we realize that people from other races and cultures, though they we all have our different kind of history and weight of living in this society, that we are people, that we can be curious and that we can learn, you know, seeing people's full human beings, like going backwards to what I was talking about about my mother, really makes a huge difference in how you see the world.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

And I think being cross racial, cross cultural, cross everything, that is a gift, even though it was painful in many ways, that was a gift to me my ability to empathize with almost anybody and to see things very big picture.

And I think being cross racial, cross cultural, cross everything, that is a gift, even though it was painful in many ways, that was a gift to me my ability to empathize with almost anybody and to see things very big picture.

Yep. I think it's a definite limitation to me growing up the way I did, you know, in the place I did, there is a still you know, we talk about implicit bias, there is still in me. I have to really watch it and work on it, which is where I just want people to be like me, you know, like this is the way to be like this, you know. And again it just comes up sort of automatically, like the way we respond to certain things inside of and I now see it and I'm like, well, step back, like hold on, that's ridiculous. But it is an orientation that I grew up with, and as we know, anything we grow up with that's unquestioned for a long time takes a lot of questioning to unwind.

Yep. I think it's a definite limitation to me growing up the way I did, you know, in the place I did, there is a still you know, we talk about implicit bias, there is still in me. I have to really watch it and work on it, which is where I just want people to be like me, you know, like this is the way to be like this, you know. And again it just comes up sort of automatically, like the way we respond to certain things inside of and I now see it and I'm like, well, step back, like hold on, that's ridiculous. But it is an orientation that I grew up with, and as we know, anything we grow up with that's unquestioned for a long time takes a lot of questioning to unwind.

Well, I'm glad you are, because this actually can be very dangerous, extraordinarily yeah, to people you know who aren't of your group. Right. So for example, I say to my daughter, it's like, look, because when you're teenagers, especially, you tend to be very ego focused, like everything's about you. You're very much a narcissist, which is very normal as a teenager, right, And to say to them like, look, you're worried, you're anxious, everyone's talking about you. You feel like this, everyone's this, this, everyone's meaning. Do you realize that everyone that you're in class with goes to bed at night with the same thoughts going through their heads. Everyone's thoughts are just thoughts, just like yours. And I'm trying to help her, which I did for myself and I wish many people would do, especially if you had a limited upbringing or childhood, is to look and see that when you have a bias to look. Let's say, it's like you just you encounter a person and instantly your head goes I pull away or I'm this right, don't talk to them, or which I see all the time. I mean, people whether it's they don't want to sit next to me in the cafeteria, or they don't want to sit next to me in a bus or whatever. It's just stop and go. That's a person, yes, just literally saying that in your head. That's a person that could be my cousin whatever, if they were a different color, or that could be my you know, if they're a different gender. So it helps not only you interact with the world, I'll tell you, it makes your world so much richer, so much richer to approach the world as that's a person.

Well, I'm glad you are, because this actually can be very dangerous, extraordinarily yeah, to people you know who aren't of your group. Right. So for example, I say to my daughter, it's like, look, because when you're teenagers, especially, you tend to be very ego focused, like everything's about you. You're very much a narcissist, which is very normal as a teenager, right, And to say to them like, look, you're worried, you're anxious, everyone's talking about you. You feel like this, everyone's this, this, everyone's meaning. Do you realize that everyone that you're in class with goes to bed at night with the same thoughts going through their heads. Everyone's thoughts are just thoughts, just like yours. And I'm trying to help her, which I did for myself and I wish many people would do, especially if you had a limited upbringing or childhood, is to look and see that when you have a bias to look. Let's say, it's like you just you encounter a person and instantly your head goes I pull away or I'm this right, don't talk to them, or which I see all the time. I mean, people whether it's they don't want to sit next to me in the cafeteria, or they don't want to sit next to me in a bus or whatever. It's just stop and go. That's a person, yes, just literally saying that in your head. That's a person that could be my cousin whatever, if they were a different color, or that could be my you know, if they're a different gender. So it helps not only you interact with the world, I'll tell you, it makes your world so much richer, so much richer to approach the world as that's a person.

There's a Buddhist practice called commonalities practice, and it's been revolutionary to me in practicing it over probably twenty five years now, which is that you can find whatever word in you want, but in essence, it's realizing like every single human wants to be happy just like I do, and they want to avoid pain just like I do, without exception. I hate to say without exception, because there's always an exception to something, but ninety nine percent of the time people are just like this.

There's a Buddhist practice called commonalities practice, and it's been revolutionary to me in practicing it over probably twenty five years now, which is that you can find whatever word in you want, but in essence, it's realizing like every single human wants to be happy just like I do, and they want to avoid pain just like I do, without exception. I hate to say without exception, because there's always an exception to something, but ninety nine percent of the time people are just like this.

You know.

You know.

I was wondering whether sociopaths.

I was wondering whether sociopaths.

Are that way anyway, Well, let's put it this way. We don't need to spend any time on socio pous you know what I mean, Let's skip those They do that good for themselves.

Are that way anyway, Well, let's put it this way. We don't need to spend any time on socio pous you know what I mean, Let's skip those They do that good for themselves.

But for everybody else that phrase, and I mean, I'll just sit on public transportation in like a city and just looking around and just doing that person to person to person and just realizing like just like me, just like me, just like me on that fundamental level. And from there, everything to me is sort of strategy. You know. We may disagree about the strategies that emerge forgetting those things, but we're after the.

But for everybody else that phrase, and I mean, I'll just sit on public transportation in like a city and just looking around and just doing that person to person to person and just realizing like just like me, just like me, just like me on that fundamental level. And from there, everything to me is sort of strategy. You know. We may disagree about the strategies that emerge forgetting those things, but we're after the.

Same thing, and we don't all have the same tools. You know, we come up with, like, for example, the idea of the architect and concrete. Like I would have probably been a very different person had I stayed with my people, you know, the Chinese intemican community, and stayed in the city. I can't say if I'd be worse or better off. I just think I would have been a different person. What I encountered in New Hampshire during like very important years of growth and growing and establishing myself as a human being. I could have done without some of that. Like you know how they say is like people say, oh, it builds character. I've had enough character. I got loads you know what I'm saying. But I think too, I like to just take myself out of myself a meaning like not centering myself as in relation to and instead And I do this in my family and I do this with a lot of folks. And I'm not perfect at it, but just really saying, like that person is hurting, that person is happy, that person is you know, I wish and I would hope that, you know, the more listening and understanding that is done, the better, the less generalization. So I have a master's in psychology, So one of my favorite tenants with statistics in theory was always differences within groups are equal to or greater than differences between groups. Right, So you can say men are better runners than women, and I can tell you I could get you the slowest man, and I could get you a woman who'll beat him. Or I could get you the fast man. I could get you a woman who'd equal him. You know what I'm saying. So there's so much variation within groups that we form in our heads, whether it's by race or culture or gender, whatever it is, there's so much variation that it's equal to the variation between the groups. We can always find examples. So if you look at the world that way, you start to see that to your point, commonality is it. We are human beings, period. We just come through different stuff.

Same thing, and we don't all have the same tools. You know, we come up with, like, for example, the idea of the architect and concrete. Like I would have probably been a very different person had I stayed with my people, you know, the Chinese intemican community, and stayed in the city. I can't say if I'd be worse or better off. I just think I would have been a different person. What I encountered in New Hampshire during like very important years of growth and growing and establishing myself as a human being. I could have done without some of that. Like you know how they say is like people say, oh, it builds character. I've had enough character. I got loads you know what I'm saying. But I think too, I like to just take myself out of myself a meaning like not centering myself as in relation to and instead And I do this in my family and I do this with a lot of folks. And I'm not perfect at it, but just really saying, like that person is hurting, that person is happy, that person is you know, I wish and I would hope that, you know, the more listening and understanding that is done, the better, the less generalization. So I have a master's in psychology, So one of my favorite tenants with statistics in theory was always differences within groups are equal to or greater than differences between groups. Right, So you can say men are better runners than women, and I can tell you I could get you the slowest man, and I could get you a woman who'll beat him. Or I could get you the fast man. I could get you a woman who'd equal him. You know what I'm saying. So there's so much variation within groups that we form in our heads, whether it's by race or culture or gender, whatever it is, there's so much variation that it's equal to the variation between the groups. We can always find examples. So if you look at the world that way, you start to see that to your point, commonality is it. We are human beings, period. We just come through different stuff.

Totally. So I want to circle back to the idea of identity because as a I'm not going to say I'm not a Buddhist. I've practiced Buddhism a great deal. I don't know what, it doesn't matter. But as a practitioner, a student, you know, yeah, anyway, one of the things that sits at the heart of that tradition is this idea that the self we think we are isn't as solid as it is. And if you start taking the pieces apart, you go, well, what's really there? Right? And so I wanted to talk to you about that because I think you're coming from a slightly different angle on it, which you know you say in the book, how do you become Unchinese? After you know that's not your word in exactly, but you thought you were Chinese all these years, and all of a sudden you find out, at least by genetics, you are not. So there's that identity and then this father shifts and there's so many identity shifts that are happening to you. I'm curious how the external identity shifts that have occurred in what ways do they contribute to a strengthening inner identity. I know the ways that they're destabilizing, right, and you talk about those very well, how destabilizing that is. But I'm curious, is there something about that process that has allowed you to get a stronger inner identity that isn't based on the things outside so much?

Totally. So I want to circle back to the idea of identity because as a I'm not going to say I'm not a Buddhist. I've practiced Buddhism a great deal. I don't know what, it doesn't matter. But as a practitioner, a student, you know, yeah, anyway, one of the things that sits at the heart of that tradition is this idea that the self we think we are isn't as solid as it is. And if you start taking the pieces apart, you go, well, what's really there? Right? And so I wanted to talk to you about that because I think you're coming from a slightly different angle on it, which you know you say in the book, how do you become Unchinese? After you know that's not your word in exactly, but you thought you were Chinese all these years, and all of a sudden you find out, at least by genetics, you are not. So there's that identity and then this father shifts and there's so many identity shifts that are happening to you. I'm curious how the external identity shifts that have occurred in what ways do they contribute to a strengthening inner identity. I know the ways that they're destabilizing, right, and you talk about those very well, how destabilizing that is. But I'm curious, is there something about that process that has allowed you to get a stronger inner identity that isn't based on the things outside so much?

Oh yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, yes yes, And that's been like a beautiful thing through all of this, which, by the way, I'm still Chinese, but I'm not biologically but let me tell you, don't stop just because you know. It's like my Asian friends who are Latin American three generations back, like, they don't say they're Asian. They look at you, like look at them, and you're like you're Asian. You're like listen, and they're like mita, you know, like that's the Spanish is there? So we all have to come about it our own way. And I'll tell you this, My big revelations have been happening since the book came out, and since other things have of course happened. For example, Poppy Wong passed away in June, and having to reveal also to my stepfather who my biological father is. That was a whole other thing too, because I spent my childhood trying to please my parents, and my mother wanted to assimilar more right, and I wanted to be this new father's kid, and they went on to have my four sisters after me, and I felt two other. I felt completely unmoored. We left all of our family, everything, we knew everything, the community, everything. So I really spent a lot of time trying to be him. And at one point I was in therapy maybe gosh, I want to say eight years ago. So when I was doing TV and I had an aha moment where I realized, if I really loved finance, I was covered financial journalism for twenty years. If I really loved finance, you know, I would be just making bank on Wall Street. Right, That's not what I loved. What I loved was writing. What I loved was being on stage, giving advice all that stuff. So I said, you know, I think this stepfather, Marty, he used to always be in front of the TV when he was home, right, kind of like your dad comes home with a briefcase opens up the newspaper Wall Street Journal, and then is watching Wall Street Week and all those shows. I had a byline in those magazines that he subscribed to. I was an editor at the magazines he subscribed to. I went on the shows and hosts a show on the networks he watches. I wanted him to see me and find me valuable as a daughter, as a child, and look at me like I've spent decades of my life trying to win somebody and in the end, you know, he was my father either right, but also to no recognition of what that did to me. And then I started realizing, as we do many of us, when we've been neglected by parents emotionally, we people please and we act, we perform for approval. And I realized that a lot of my life was about that. So now where I'm at fifty one years old, there's something about the fifty mark man like, really does it to you? I'm there, Yeah, I just realized I.

Oh yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, yes yes, And that's been like a beautiful thing through all of this, which, by the way, I'm still Chinese, but I'm not biologically but let me tell you, don't stop just because you know. It's like my Asian friends who are Latin American three generations back, like, they don't say they're Asian. They look at you, like look at them, and you're like you're Asian. You're like listen, and they're like mita, you know, like that's the Spanish is there? So we all have to come about it our own way. And I'll tell you this, My big revelations have been happening since the book came out, and since other things have of course happened. For example, Poppy Wong passed away in June, and having to reveal also to my stepfather who my biological father is. That was a whole other thing too, because I spent my childhood trying to please my parents, and my mother wanted to assimilar more right, and I wanted to be this new father's kid, and they went on to have my four sisters after me, and I felt two other. I felt completely unmoored. We left all of our family, everything, we knew everything, the community, everything. So I really spent a lot of time trying to be him. And at one point I was in therapy maybe gosh, I want to say eight years ago. So when I was doing TV and I had an aha moment where I realized, if I really loved finance, I was covered financial journalism for twenty years. If I really loved finance, you know, I would be just making bank on Wall Street. Right, That's not what I loved. What I loved was writing. What I loved was being on stage, giving advice all that stuff. So I said, you know, I think this stepfather, Marty, he used to always be in front of the TV when he was home, right, kind of like your dad comes home with a briefcase opens up the newspaper Wall Street Journal, and then is watching Wall Street Week and all those shows. I had a byline in those magazines that he subscribed to. I was an editor at the magazines he subscribed to. I went on the shows and hosts a show on the networks he watches. I wanted him to see me and find me valuable as a daughter, as a child, and look at me like I've spent decades of my life trying to win somebody and in the end, you know, he was my father either right, but also to no recognition of what that did to me. And then I started realizing, as we do many of us, when we've been neglected by parents emotionally, we people please and we act, we perform for approval. And I realized that a lot of my life was about that. So now where I'm at fifty one years old, there's something about the fifty mark man like, really does it to you? I'm there, Yeah, I just realized I.

Never have guessed that about you, But thank.

Never have guessed that about you, But thank.

You, darling. That's the Dominican side. But I realized, especially when Poppy Wong passed away, how much I'm really his daughter, Like really I am really his daughter. I am so much along and it's just so clear. Here is this Chinese drug dealing gangster who I never even knew by the way he did all these things until, of course, very late in life, but his character and the way he was and how he was just you know, could go up to anybody no matter what their background, and all of us you just just love this guy.

You, darling. That's the Dominican side. But I realized, especially when Poppy Wong passed away, how much I'm really his daughter, Like really I am really his daughter. I am so much along and it's just so clear. Here is this Chinese drug dealing gangster who I never even knew by the way he did all these things until, of course, very late in life, but his character and the way he was and how he was just you know, could go up to anybody no matter what their background, and all of us you just just love this guy.

You know.

You know.

It's like very social kind of person, very community focused, very much let's get things done type of guy, and very entrepreneurial. And that's something I very much am. But I'm just his daughter, for sure, and so I think in terms of identity culturally yes too, But I think him as a human being, as a person, and as my brother's sister, like the two of us very much, his kids and my mom's of course. But I was just kind of surprised to figure it out this late in life, just how much. And it took him leaving because trust me, he was a very disruptive presence even in his old age. I can tell you to be able to sit still with it, you know, and to realize that as I'm getting older and I'm discovering how much of me is really me, how much of me was built to please, to win love that by the way, children should just get no matter what, to win acceptance and approval and defy expectations of the larger community that thought less of me because of my race and gender. There's so much of that. So I'm excavating and it's pretty amazing that, you know, you can find yourself once you kind of dig out from all of that and to not feel bad about it either. I think there's this idea of like, you know, no, no, was I fake or whatever? Whatever the kids say, you know no, it's just like we're all like that. We all want mommy and daddy to love us. We all want to be accepted, you know.

It's like very social kind of person, very community focused, very much let's get things done type of guy, and very entrepreneurial. And that's something I very much am. But I'm just his daughter, for sure, and so I think in terms of identity culturally yes too, But I think him as a human being, as a person, and as my brother's sister, like the two of us very much, his kids and my mom's of course. But I was just kind of surprised to figure it out this late in life, just how much. And it took him leaving because trust me, he was a very disruptive presence even in his old age. I can tell you to be able to sit still with it, you know, and to realize that as I'm getting older and I'm discovering how much of me is really me, how much of me was built to please, to win love that by the way, children should just get no matter what, to win acceptance and approval and defy expectations of the larger community that thought less of me because of my race and gender. There's so much of that. So I'm excavating and it's pretty amazing that, you know, you can find yourself once you kind of dig out from all of that and to not feel bad about it either. I think there's this idea of like, you know, no, no, was I fake or whatever? Whatever the kids say, you know no, it's just like we're all like that. We all want mommy and daddy to love us. We all want to be accepted, you know.

Yeah, we're all responding to and reacting to and being shaped by so many different things I've heard you talk about. You know, there's culture, there's color, there's your family, there's I mean, all these things are always shaping us. To the point that I think the question of like, who's the real me in here is almost a red herring in that it can be very hard to find any real me that wasn't shaped in some way, shape or form. Now that's not to say that we don't have personalities and that we don't have versions of ourselves that feel more true than others.

Yeah, we're all responding to and reacting to and being shaped by so many different things I've heard you talk about. You know, there's culture, there's color, there's your family, there's I mean, all these things are always shaping us. To the point that I think the question of like, who's the real me in here is almost a red herring in that it can be very hard to find any real me that wasn't shaped in some way, shape or form. Now that's not to say that we don't have personalities and that we don't have versions of ourselves that feel more true than others.

Yeah, and that's the whole midlife crisis thing, right. If people say that, it's because all of a sudden, you like, stop doing what the world tells you're supposed to be doing, and your parents tell you what you're supposed to be doing, and then you go out and you're like, I'm doing what I want. We become kids again, and it's that whole idea of like, what were you like when you were like eight, What did you like to do, what made you happy, what was exciting to you. I recommend going back and doing that. That's the exercise I've been doing with myself.

Yeah, and that's the whole midlife crisis thing, right. If people say that, it's because all of a sudden, you like, stop doing what the world tells you're supposed to be doing, and your parents tell you what you're supposed to be doing, and then you go out and you're like, I'm doing what I want. We become kids again, and it's that whole idea of like, what were you like when you were like eight, What did you like to do, what made you happy, what was exciting to you. I recommend going back and doing that. That's the exercise I've been doing with myself.

Yeah, it's an interesting one because I do that from time to time, and I'm like, somewhere I crossed over and it happened relatively early, sort of a weird, little different, creative, little kid who was kind of into his own world and suddenly became really into sports in the sports world, and that didn't feel fake at all. Yeah, and yet I can see there was some degree of cultural shaping. So I mean, I think even you know, really little, I'm like trying to make my home work for me. Yeah, as gabor Mate writer says, I think he summed this up the best, which is we're always in a battle between attachment and authenticity. Yeah right. You know, on one hand, we're trying to be the person that gets loved and is secure early attached, and yet we have a desire to be authentic, and those two things are in a push and pull. I think to some degree it's attention that I don't think it's completely resolved ever, right. It probably shouldn't, right, because those are two important needs. They're both needs.

Yeah, it's an interesting one because I do that from time to time, and I'm like, somewhere I crossed over and it happened relatively early, sort of a weird, little different, creative, little kid who was kind of into his own world and suddenly became really into sports in the sports world, and that didn't feel fake at all. Yeah, and yet I can see there was some degree of cultural shaping. So I mean, I think even you know, really little, I'm like trying to make my home work for me. Yeah, as gabor Mate writer says, I think he summed this up the best, which is we're always in a battle between attachment and authenticity. Yeah right. You know, on one hand, we're trying to be the person that gets loved and is secure early attached, and yet we have a desire to be authentic, and those two things are in a push and pull. I think to some degree it's attention that I don't think it's completely resolved ever, right. It probably shouldn't, right, because those are two important needs. They're both needs.

One thing that's helpful that my therapist, who's very informed, he's very Buddhist and Youngian, so which I love him to pieces. I love, I love, I got my obi wan. He helped me a lot by making me think of these parts of me as separate people at a table, and there was the one, and then naming them, giving them little names, little characters, because he knows I love to write and create worlds, and that makes total sense. And it's like, okay, so this one's been in charge for a while because she was constructed to protect you and strive and this and that the other thing and then this one over here's been a little quiet, you know, and now this one wants to come and sit at the table. And it's not that any of them are inauthentic mes, it's that they're all me Yeah, but there is one that should be at the head of the table, the one that when you kind of get to know them all, when you know that they're there, then you can kind of slide over to the one that's going to to your point about the one you feed. This one is going to sit at the head of the table because she knows how to do it the best way, you know what I mean, Like one of them has to get up and be like scooch, scooch, I need to come in here. I need to come in here for a second, and then you can call on them too. That was very helpful to me, because for me, it was pretty traumatizing to realize how much I'd been living my life for other people. Really, it was kind of devastating. And it's not that I'm horrified. I mean, shoot, I've done so much. I look back and I go, oh, my god, who was that person? Well, she was doing all that and she's not who I want to always be, but you know what, she did what she had to do because that's what she thought she had to do.