Does meditating feel like a chore, another to do list item to check off, or perhaps it's even fallen off the list entirely. If you sense that meditating regularly would benefit you, but you struggle to find a sustainable place for it in your schedule, I can help. There are reasons people struggle with creating and maintaining a meditation practice, and it isn't because meditation isn't right for them. In my free guide the top five reasons you can't seem to stick with a meditation practice and how to build one that lasts, I teach you why it can be a struggle to build a meditation practice that lasts, and the small fixes that can have a big impact when it comes to getting you where you want to be with meditating regularly. Go to oneufeed dot net and sign up for this free guide right on our homepage.

Does meditating feel like a chore, another to do list item to check off, or perhaps it's even fallen off the list entirely. If you sense that meditating regularly would benefit you, but you struggle to find a sustainable place for it in your schedule, I can help. There are reasons people struggle with creating and maintaining a meditation practice, and it isn't because meditation isn't right for them. In my free guide the top five reasons you can't seem to stick with a meditation practice and how to build one that lasts, I teach you why it can be a struggle to build a meditation practice that lasts, and the small fixes that can have a big impact when it comes to getting you where you want to be with meditating regularly. Go to oneufeed dot net and sign up for this free guide right on our homepage.

These skills of mindfulness, compassion, calm, concentration, the various skills that can be taught through meditation. You just keep getting better and there's not as much of a physical limitations like there's a ceiling on how good I can get at basketball.

These skills of mindfulness, compassion, calm, concentration, the various skills that can be taught through meditation. You just keep getting better and there's not as much of a physical limitations like there's a ceiling on how good I can get at basketball.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dan Harris. He's the author of the number one New York Times best selling memoir Ten Percent Happier, about a fidgety, skeptical news anchor who finds meditation. He's also the host of the ten Percent Happier podcast and a co founder of the ten Percent Happier Meditation app. For twenty one years, he worked at ABC News, where he anchored such shows as Nightline and the weekend editions of Good Morning America.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dan Harris. He's the author of the number one New York Times best selling memoir Ten Percent Happier, about a fidgety, skeptical news anchor who finds meditation. He's also the host of the ten Percent Happier podcast and a co founder of the ten Percent Happier Meditation app. For twenty one years, he worked at ABC News, where he anchored such shows as Nightline and the weekend editions of Good Morning America.

Hey, Dan, welcome to the show.

Hey, Dan, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

It's a pleasure to have you back on. I was saying to you right before we started that. I think the last time we did this, we did it in person, and you were still at ABC at the time, So we came to your offices in New York and did it there, you and me and Oran, who I know is a part of your app and been on your podcast a few times.

It's a pleasure to have you back on. I was saying to you right before we started that. I think the last time we did this, we did it in person, and you were still at ABC at the time, So we came to your offices in New York and did it there, you and me and Oran, who I know is a part of your app and been on your podcast a few times.

That's right.

That's right.

Well, I think in the interim both of us have been able to quit corporate jobs.

Well, I think in the interim both of us have been able to quit corporate jobs.

Yes, so that is good news. Has that transition been good for.

Yes, so that is good news. Has that transition been good for.

You in most ways?

You in most ways?

Yes, it's great because Mama troll of my own schedule for twenty one years. As much as I loved ABC News, and I really loved it, my life was really at the whims of some crazy person walks into a supermarket with a AK forty seven, I got to fly there. Yeah, you know, And yeah, I think when I was younger it was exciting to be at the whims of the news cycle, and as I got older and had lots of other stuff and a family, it was harder and harder for me to do. So that part is great, And you know, I'm around my family much more, and I was, you know, At the peak of my time at ABC, I was working nights anchoring Nightline and then weekends anchoring Good Morning America. So that really took me out of the mix. And so now I have a lot more time to be with my son and my wife and so.

Yes, it's great because Mama troll of my own schedule for twenty one years. As much as I loved ABC News, and I really loved it, my life was really at the whims of some crazy person walks into a supermarket with a AK forty seven, I got to fly there. Yeah, you know, And yeah, I think when I was younger it was exciting to be at the whims of the news cycle, and as I got older and had lots of other stuff and a family, it was harder and harder for me to do. So that part is great, And you know, I'm around my family much more, and I was, you know, At the peak of my time at ABC, I was working nights anchoring Nightline and then weekends anchoring Good Morning America. So that really took me out of the mix. And so now I have a lot more time to be with my son and my wife and so.

All that's great.

All that's great.

Once in a while, I feel some identity crisis stuff around, you know, I'm no longer an anchorman, and you know what am I then? That kind of thing, But that's pretty fleeting. Yeah, yeah, I buy and large love my change. But there were things about it that I liked. I liked, you know, we went into an office and there were proba that kind of needed solved that didn't have anything to do with a human mind, you know, and I kind of occasionally liked, you know, something like a software problem that I could go fix that was very straightforward. Yeah, you were working kind of crazy hours, I know there for a while, for a long time.

Once in a while, I feel some identity crisis stuff around, you know, I'm no longer an anchorman, and you know what am I then? That kind of thing, But that's pretty fleeting. Yeah, yeah, I buy and large love my change. But there were things about it that I liked. I liked, you know, we went into an office and there were proba that kind of needed solved that didn't have anything to do with a human mind, you know, and I kind of occasionally liked, you know, something like a software problem that I could go fix that was very straightforward. Yeah, you were working kind of crazy hours, I know there for a while, for a long time.

Yes, yes, crazy hours.

Yes, yes, crazy hours.

Yeah. So we always start this podcast the way that we have all along, which is by the reading of the Wolf Parable. So I'll go ahead and read that to you and kind of get your up to date take on it. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins, And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah. So we always start this podcast the way that we have all along, which is by the reading of the Wolf Parable. So I'll go ahead and read that to you and kind of get your up to date take on it. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins, And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I remember what I said last time, and I apologize if it's the exact same thing.

I remember what I said last time, and I apologize if it's the exact same thing.

But I love it either.

But I love it either.

So I love the parable because it speaks to the animating insight of my former side hustle and now in whole career as a meditation evangelist, which is that the mind is trainable and we are not stuck with factory settings, that we can work on the aspects of our self that we might struggle with, and we can further hon our positive attributes.

So I love the parable because it speaks to the animating insight of my former side hustle and now in whole career as a meditation evangelist, which is that the mind is trainable and we are not stuck with factory settings, that we can work on the aspects of our self that we might struggle with, and we can further hon our positive attributes.

I would say the one thing.

I would say the one thing.

That I've really noticed recently, perhaps this would be new, is that I think that I told myself a story, probably subconsciously. I don't know if I intellectually believe this, but subconsciously that maybe I was one way. You know, I think I harbored a long suspicion that I was, you know, kind of irredeemably selfish on some level. Of course, you know, there's a boundary between inside and outside when it comes to psychology, or the mind is really permeable, and so you tend to project your conclusions about yourself onto the world. And I think I felt that way about individuals in the news with whom I disagreed that they.

That I've really noticed recently, perhaps this would be new, is that I think that I told myself a story, probably subconsciously. I don't know if I intellectually believe this, but subconsciously that maybe I was one way. You know, I think I harbored a long suspicion that I was, you know, kind of irredeemably selfish on some level. Of course, you know, there's a boundary between inside and outside when it comes to psychology, or the mind is really permeable, and so you tend to project your conclusions about yourself onto the world. And I think I felt that way about individuals in the news with whom I disagreed that they.

Were all one way.

Were all one way.

But I've realized that it's much more complicated than that, and that I think leads to me taking it easier on myself, so that when I screw up and do something that might fit into the old story about how I'm a bad boy, I can see it as an isolated incident or even part of a pattern, but not a reification of a non negotiable truth. And that's really helpful. And also it makes it easier to be less judgmental about other people, and that being judgmental is a pain in the ass. You know, you're carrying around this view that on some level you know isn't true, but you're sticking to it. I've heard that that's actually the definition of hysteria, sticking to a view that you know on some level isn't true.

But I've realized that it's much more complicated than that, and that I think leads to me taking it easier on myself, so that when I screw up and do something that might fit into the old story about how I'm a bad boy, I can see it as an isolated incident or even part of a pattern, but not a reification of a non negotiable truth. And that's really helpful. And also it makes it easier to be less judgmental about other people, and that being judgmental is a pain in the ass. You know, you're carrying around this view that on some level you know isn't true, but you're sticking to it. I've heard that that's actually the definition of hysteria, sticking to a view that you know on some level isn't true.

And you know.

And you know.

So we look out the world that people we disagree with on social media or in the news, or maybe even in our family and harbor some belief that they are fundamentally one way. But I don't think that's how it works. And I think that if we do the experiment of putting ourselves in their shoes and coming out of the same womb and living in the same circumstances, we may very well do the same things that they're doing. There's a great figure. You may have interviewed him, father Gregory Boyle. You're nodding your head, so you know he is. Father Boyle was on my podcast one time and he said, I don't believe in evil. I believe in horrible behavior, but not evil.

So we look out the world that people we disagree with on social media or in the news, or maybe even in our family and harbor some belief that they are fundamentally one way. But I don't think that's how it works. And I think that if we do the experiment of putting ourselves in their shoes and coming out of the same womb and living in the same circumstances, we may very well do the same things that they're doing. There's a great figure. You may have interviewed him, father Gregory Boyle. You're nodding your head, so you know he is. Father Boyle was on my podcast one time and he said, I don't believe in evil. I believe in horrible behavior, but not evil.

Yeah. I mean it gets to the point that most of these things that we might call the bad wolf are typically coming out of some reaction to something that's happened. And I think you're right that it's far more complex and like there's a good and a bad side of us right life is we are far more complex than that. And one thing that I think I've seen in your work evolve over the years, and maybe I saw it most clearly seeing EU recent Ted talk, is this sense of really recognizing that these patterns inside of us. I want to find your line here because it's really good. You said my demons were actually fear based neurotic programs, probably injected into me by my culture or my parents, and they were trying to help me. Is a really you know, beautiful idea around recognizing the ways in which we aren't showing up in the world as the person we want to be is because of some habitual reaction pattern. Now again, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of is everybody that way? And what about psychopaths or any of that stuff. But for the vast majority of us, right our fear, our anger, our greed, they're coming from these deeper things within us that can be used differently and related to differently.

Yeah. I mean it gets to the point that most of these things that we might call the bad wolf are typically coming out of some reaction to something that's happened. And I think you're right that it's far more complex and like there's a good and a bad side of us right life is we are far more complex than that. And one thing that I think I've seen in your work evolve over the years, and maybe I saw it most clearly seeing EU recent Ted talk, is this sense of really recognizing that these patterns inside of us. I want to find your line here because it's really good. You said my demons were actually fear based neurotic programs, probably injected into me by my culture or my parents, and they were trying to help me. Is a really you know, beautiful idea around recognizing the ways in which we aren't showing up in the world as the person we want to be is because of some habitual reaction pattern. Now again, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of is everybody that way? And what about psychopaths or any of that stuff. But for the vast majority of us, right our fear, our anger, our greed, they're coming from these deeper things within us that can be used differently and related to differently.

Yes, Yes, just to clarify one thing, I don't think I was making the case that you know, we're either part good or part bad, but I actually agree with that case, it's a more sophisticated case. In the one I was making, I was more arguing that other people I judge them, and myself I judge them to be wholly bad, right, And I think that's not true in terms of our demons are wolves, and I think there are lots of bad wolves. If you want to use the word bad, let's use that word, even though it's probably overly simplified. Yeah, I think it's really helpful to view them warmly, to give them a high five instead of trying to slay them, because the aggression just makes them stronger. I have an executive coach who I really like, Jerry Kolonna, and he's often told me that I can't bully my inner bully out of existence. Just doesn't work that way. You drive them underground and it comes out in other places. And so the only route that I've found to dealing with the aspects of our personality that are difficult is to view them warmly as ancient programs that are trying to help us but are not, you know, highly functional, and move on, because that's the fundamental and radical disarmament.

Yes, Yes, just to clarify one thing, I don't think I was making the case that you know, we're either part good or part bad, but I actually agree with that case, it's a more sophisticated case. In the one I was making, I was more arguing that other people I judge them, and myself I judge them to be wholly bad, right, And I think that's not true in terms of our demons are wolves, and I think there are lots of bad wolves. If you want to use the word bad, let's use that word, even though it's probably overly simplified. Yeah, I think it's really helpful to view them warmly, to give them a high five instead of trying to slay them, because the aggression just makes them stronger. I have an executive coach who I really like, Jerry Kolonna, and he's often told me that I can't bully my inner bully out of existence. Just doesn't work that way. You drive them underground and it comes out in other places. And so the only route that I've found to dealing with the aspects of our personality that are difficult is to view them warmly as ancient programs that are trying to help us but are not, you know, highly functional, and move on, because that's the fundamental and radical disarmament.

Yeah, and that's a phrase that you used in the Ted talk. You know, you said that this counterintuitive extension of warmth to these things was not indulgent, but was indeed radical disarmament. I just love that phrase. It really jumped out to me when I heard it, and I was like, Yeah, that's kind of what we're talking about. And where I always find the nuance for me is in recognizing and allowing that those things are there and befriending them and not feeding them. You know, that to me is where the nuance gets to be. Even if I want to think about something like thinking more positively, knowing that I have a mind that goes towards the negative, right, Like I don't want to just the minute negative thoughts show up, like squelch them down, and so I want to allow them to be there and recognize them and explore them. And then there's a certain point for me where it's like, Okay, we need to move on here and change the channel or work on cultivating different thoughts. And so I've always found that dynamic to be one of the higher arts of sort of mindfulness healing all this stuff is kind of knowing how much to devote to each of those sort of areas.

Yeah, and that's a phrase that you used in the Ted talk. You know, you said that this counterintuitive extension of warmth to these things was not indulgent, but was indeed radical disarmament. I just love that phrase. It really jumped out to me when I heard it, and I was like, Yeah, that's kind of what we're talking about. And where I always find the nuance for me is in recognizing and allowing that those things are there and befriending them and not feeding them. You know, that to me is where the nuance gets to be. Even if I want to think about something like thinking more positively, knowing that I have a mind that goes towards the negative, right, Like I don't want to just the minute negative thoughts show up, like squelch them down, and so I want to allow them to be there and recognize them and explore them. And then there's a certain point for me where it's like, Okay, we need to move on here and change the channel or work on cultivating different thoughts. And so I've always found that dynamic to be one of the higher arts of sort of mindfulness healing all this stuff is kind of knowing how much to devote to each of those sort of areas.

Yeah, I mean, you're putting your finger on the key issue here. In my view, you can make the philosophical switch of not hating yourself because you might have venal impulses, but then what do you actually do with said impulses? And there are many strategies from modern psychology to ancient meditation. And you know, I am not olympic level. I can get carried away by my lesser impulses hourly. But I have been able to use some of these tools, and we can talk about them whatever order you would like to achieve, you know, maybe ten percent of the time, a different relationship to my stuff, so that I'm not completely handing over all of the power to voices in my head that are not so constructive.

Yeah, I mean, you're putting your finger on the key issue here. In my view, you can make the philosophical switch of not hating yourself because you might have venal impulses, but then what do you actually do with said impulses? And there are many strategies from modern psychology to ancient meditation. And you know, I am not olympic level. I can get carried away by my lesser impulses hourly. But I have been able to use some of these tools, and we can talk about them whatever order you would like to achieve, you know, maybe ten percent of the time, a different relationship to my stuff, so that I'm not completely handing over all of the power to voices in my head that are not so constructive.

Yeah, And I.

Yeah, And I.

Don't know if you've seen this in your work, because you talk to a lot of different people like I do, and I'm oversimplifying, but I've seen it in psychology and I've seen it in Buddhism. These these sort of two different approaches, and one is very much an acceptance approach, be with what's there, befriended, let it be there. There's that. And then there's another approach, which is more I might call more of a cognitive behavioral approach, right, But it shows up in Buddhism too, which is you recognize the thought and then you choose to put a different one in.

Don't know if you've seen this in your work, because you talk to a lot of different people like I do, and I'm oversimplifying, but I've seen it in psychology and I've seen it in Buddhism. These these sort of two different approaches, and one is very much an acceptance approach, be with what's there, befriended, let it be there. There's that. And then there's another approach, which is more I might call more of a cognitive behavioral approach, right, But it shows up in Buddhism too, which is you recognize the thought and then you choose to put a different one in.

Right.

Right.

You might think of that as I'm choosing to pull out a weed or I'm putting a flower in. But there's an active changing. And I've really noticed as I've talked to people seen both of those things, and a less evolved version of me would have said, well, which is the better approach? And now I know that's a foolish question, right, But the question is, and the art is when do I use which approach.

You might think of that as I'm choosing to pull out a weed or I'm putting a flower in. But there's an active changing. And I've really noticed as I've talked to people seen both of those things, and a less evolved version of me would have said, well, which is the better approach? And now I know that's a foolish question, right, But the question is, and the art is when do I use which approach.

And for how long?

And for how long?

Yes, yes, I'm just doing a little math in my head as we're talking, Like I think there are probably for me personally, like five different approaches that I interweave when I could remember to do it. And some of them are you know, meditative, contemplative Buddhist practices, and some of them are more sort of modern psychological practices, and the overlap between them is very significant because I think the Buddha made some insights twenty six hundred years ago that modern psychological researchers and practitioners are just coming to see the wisdom of.

Yes, yes, I'm just doing a little math in my head as we're talking, Like I think there are probably for me personally, like five different approaches that I interweave when I could remember to do it. And some of them are you know, meditative, contemplative Buddhist practices, and some of them are more sort of modern psychological practices, and the overlap between them is very significant because I think the Buddha made some insights twenty six hundred years ago that modern psychological researchers and practitioners are just coming to see the wisdom of.

Yep so let's explore what some of those are. You just came up with the number five. I'm sure if I gave you ten minutes to think, that number might become four or seven or But let's go through what some of those categories are.

Yep so let's explore what some of those are. You just came up with the number five. I'm sure if I gave you ten minutes to think, that number might become four or seven or But let's go through what some of those categories are.

All right, So let me list them and then we can go through them. First, I would say it's just straight up mindfulness. The second, I would say is loving kindness. So both of those come out of Buddhism. The third would be a modern psychological tool that has been perfected, at least to the extent of my knowledge, by a school of psychology called internal family systems ifs. The fourth would be self compassion. These are all very related. That is, self compassion is a mixture of modern psychology and ancient Buddhism, pioneered by some researchers doctor Kristin Neff and doctor christ Germer. And then the fifth is I don't know what he would call it, but doctor Ethan Cross at the University of Michigan wrote a book called Chatter, and the way I would describe what he is teaching is a kind of internal counter programming where you kind of talk back to your thoughts. And so I want to be clear that I'm speaking here, not you know, from the mountaintop as some expert. I'm sure I'm leaving out CBT or DBT or lots of other modalities. These are just the five that have worked for me.

All right, So let me list them and then we can go through them. First, I would say it's just straight up mindfulness. The second, I would say is loving kindness. So both of those come out of Buddhism. The third would be a modern psychological tool that has been perfected, at least to the extent of my knowledge, by a school of psychology called internal family systems ifs. The fourth would be self compassion. These are all very related. That is, self compassion is a mixture of modern psychology and ancient Buddhism, pioneered by some researchers doctor Kristin Neff and doctor christ Germer. And then the fifth is I don't know what he would call it, but doctor Ethan Cross at the University of Michigan wrote a book called Chatter, and the way I would describe what he is teaching is a kind of internal counter programming where you kind of talk back to your thoughts. And so I want to be clear that I'm speaking here, not you know, from the mountaintop as some expert. I'm sure I'm leaving out CBT or DBT or lots of other modalities. These are just the five that have worked for me.

Yep, I think you've talked to many of these people. I've talked to many of the same people. I'm curious your experience with IFS. When did that enter your life and what did it look like for you.

Yep, I think you've talked to many of these people. I've talked to many of the same people. I'm curious your experience with IFS. When did that enter your life and what did it look like for you.

Well, I don't have extensive experience with Richard Schwartz, the godfather of IFS. Internal Family Systems, came on my show and we actually did a session live just for the uninitiated. Here the basics of IFS, and my apologies to Richard if I'm mangling this, but you look at the term of art within IFS is parts of your mind. You just kind of do a taxonomy of the various parts of your mind. You may have a prominent jealous mode, a prominent anger mode, a generous mode, whatever these If you've ever seen the movie Inside Out, the Pixar movie where they have all these different characters representing human emotions, that's not far off from the IFS model.

Well, I don't have extensive experience with Richard Schwartz, the godfather of IFS. Internal Family Systems, came on my show and we actually did a session live just for the uninitiated. Here the basics of IFS, and my apologies to Richard if I'm mangling this, but you look at the term of art within IFS is parts of your mind. You just kind of do a taxonomy of the various parts of your mind. You may have a prominent jealous mode, a prominent anger mode, a generous mode, whatever these If you've ever seen the movie Inside Out, the Pixar movie where they have all these different characters representing human emotions, that's not far off from the IFS model.

And in the.

And in the.

IFS model, you actually give the characters' names. And I haven't done much IFS therapy beyond the one experience with Richard, which was very interesting. We got a lot of response to that. Before I met Richard, I had given names to the inner characters, which I found to be quite dopey. At first. I was like, I'm not going to name my inner characters. But actually, many of these practices, at least of people like me who or skeptics at first, are going to appear either dope or forced or annoying. But I often think of this great quote I heard from a meditation teacher. I don't know who said it, but I love it. Somebody was complaining to some meditation teacher about some of the Buddhist practices that we will, I think eventually get to being cheesy, and the teacher said, well, if you can't be cheesy, you can't be free.

IFS model, you actually give the characters' names. And I haven't done much IFS therapy beyond the one experience with Richard, which was very interesting. We got a lot of response to that. Before I met Richard, I had given names to the inner characters, which I found to be quite dopey. At first. I was like, I'm not going to name my inner characters. But actually, many of these practices, at least of people like me who or skeptics at first, are going to appear either dope or forced or annoying. But I often think of this great quote I heard from a meditation teacher. I don't know who said it, but I love it. Somebody was complaining to some meditation teacher about some of the Buddhist practices that we will, I think eventually get to being cheesy, and the teacher said, well, if you can't be cheesy, you can't be free.

And I think.

And I think.

That's I think that's very true in my experience, and you've got to kind of get over yourself to do this awkward stuff. And the cop I often use is exercise If you landed here on Earth from another planet and you went to a gym, you would think this is nuts. People are running in place for thirty minutes and then systematically picking up and putting down heavy things.

That's I think that's very true in my experience, and you've got to kind of get over yourself to do this awkward stuff. And the cop I often use is exercise If you landed here on Earth from another planet and you went to a gym, you would think this is nuts. People are running in place for thirty minutes and then systematically picking up and putting down heavy things.

What is going on?

What is going on?

This is ridiculous, But we call that exercise because we know that repetitive motion, repetitive exercise can lead to cardiovascular and muscular benefits, And the same is true with your brain and by extension, your mind. And that's what's on offer here. So in terms of ifs, yes, I found the idea of labeling my inner characters. One of them might call RJ or Robert Johnson, who was my grandfather, complicated dude, had many good parts to his own personality, but was quite an angry man and could be abusive in a bully And I see that in my own inner repertoire quite clearly, unfortunately, And so just giving it a name and being able to, I don't know, usefully objectifies it. Instead of having this miismatic juggernaut feel within your head, it's just like, oh, yeah, that's just one aspect of my mind and I can work with it better once I've identified it.

This is ridiculous, But we call that exercise because we know that repetitive motion, repetitive exercise can lead to cardiovascular and muscular benefits, And the same is true with your brain and by extension, your mind. And that's what's on offer here. So in terms of ifs, yes, I found the idea of labeling my inner characters. One of them might call RJ or Robert Johnson, who was my grandfather, complicated dude, had many good parts to his own personality, but was quite an angry man and could be abusive in a bully And I see that in my own inner repertoire quite clearly, unfortunately, And so just giving it a name and being able to, I don't know, usefully objectifies it. Instead of having this miismatic juggernaut feel within your head, it's just like, oh, yeah, that's just one aspect of my mind and I can work with it better once I've identified it.

Does that make sense one hundred percent? You know? Acceptance and commitment therapy is another one that often encourages you to give a name to these things because it just to use the Ethan cross term, it gives you a measure of self distancing. And I think I listened to your interview with Richard in preparation for one that I did, and I think I did something similar to you where we did a little of the work online. I remember, and it was the exact experience that I have and I often have with that stuff where I think you were like, I don't know if I'm really feeling that or if I'm just making this up, Like what's actually going on in here? Right? This stuff gets so complicated, and you know it's like we know, you know, he's asking a question apart, and you know that the part is supposed to have some kind of answer, so an answer comes, and why is that the real answer? I mean, I did this was a long time ago. This is probably two thousand, so twenty five years ago. I did some therapy work after my first marriage failed, and it was under the rubric of inner child work, that was what it was called. And I just couldn't stand that name. The whole idea of it made me a little bit crazy. But when I looked at what was going on inside of me and I went like, Oh, there do seem to be these times that the way my brain and my mind is reacting is exactly like what a three year old would be reacting like. I kind of went, well, I kind of could get over myself here and recke that this makes sense. I may choose to call it something different. And you know you're a skeptical guy. You talk about in your Ted talk. You know how putting your hand on your heart initially for self compassion made you cringe. I think we both come from a very similar place with all that stuff, and yet a lot of that stuff really does seem to help. And I love that phrase. If you can't what was it, if you can't get cheesy, you can't get free?

Does that make sense one hundred percent? You know? Acceptance and commitment therapy is another one that often encourages you to give a name to these things because it just to use the Ethan cross term, it gives you a measure of self distancing. And I think I listened to your interview with Richard in preparation for one that I did, and I think I did something similar to you where we did a little of the work online. I remember, and it was the exact experience that I have and I often have with that stuff where I think you were like, I don't know if I'm really feeling that or if I'm just making this up, Like what's actually going on in here? Right? This stuff gets so complicated, and you know it's like we know, you know, he's asking a question apart, and you know that the part is supposed to have some kind of answer, so an answer comes, and why is that the real answer? I mean, I did this was a long time ago. This is probably two thousand, so twenty five years ago. I did some therapy work after my first marriage failed, and it was under the rubric of inner child work, that was what it was called. And I just couldn't stand that name. The whole idea of it made me a little bit crazy. But when I looked at what was going on inside of me and I went like, Oh, there do seem to be these times that the way my brain and my mind is reacting is exactly like what a three year old would be reacting like. I kind of went, well, I kind of could get over myself here and recke that this makes sense. I may choose to call it something different. And you know you're a skeptical guy. You talk about in your Ted talk. You know how putting your hand on your heart initially for self compassion made you cringe. I think we both come from a very similar place with all that stuff, and yet a lot of that stuff really does seem to help. And I love that phrase. If you can't what was it, if you can't get cheesy, you can't get free?

Something like that. Yeah, something like that. That's really good.

Something like that. Yeah, something like that. That's really good.

It is, Yeah, your inner child experience. I resonate with that. Ifs says Richard did with me and with you, he basically has, you know, the same part of you talk to the various insane parts of you. Or maybe that's probably an overly negative way to describe it, but the various parts of your personality, you have a dialogue with them, and doing that feels very strange, and you're not even sure, like am I articulating what that part really thinks.

It is, Yeah, your inner child experience. I resonate with that. Ifs says Richard did with me and with you, he basically has, you know, the same part of you talk to the various insane parts of you. Or maybe that's probably an overly negative way to describe it, but the various parts of your personality, you have a dialogue with them, and doing that feels very strange, and you're not even sure, like am I articulating what that part really thinks.

I don't know.

I don't know.

It's very strange. Yeah, And so I'm not saying you, dear listener, need to do all of these things. What I'm saying is, in my experience, it's very helpful and just to repeat your phrase, Eric, getting over yourself can really be a key to dealing with some of these things.

It's very strange. Yeah, And so I'm not saying you, dear listener, need to do all of these things. What I'm saying is, in my experience, it's very helpful and just to repeat your phrase, Eric, getting over yourself can really be a key to dealing with some of these things.

So we've talked about five broad approaches that have worked for you, that have been really important, And in your TED talk you say, the massively empowering news is that love is not an unalterable factory setting. It is a skill you can train. It's actually a family of skills. And I was kind of curious, are these the skills that you mean? The things we just listed here, the self compassion, the compassion for others, or the loving kindness, the ifs work. Are these sort of to you that family of skills or did you have something else in mind when you use that line in the TED talk.

So we've talked about five broad approaches that have worked for you, that have been really important, And in your TED talk you say, the massively empowering news is that love is not an unalterable factory setting. It is a skill you can train. It's actually a family of skills. And I was kind of curious, are these the skills that you mean? The things we just listed here, the self compassion, the compassion for others, or the loving kindness, the ifs work. Are these sort of to you that family of skills or did you have something else in mind when you use that line in the TED talk.

Yes, And I think those five skills that I reference, those five modalities that I referenced earlier, are all really good for inner work. But there are other skills that I would also put in the family of love skills. And as you know, I defined love quite broadly, not just romantic or familiar love, but just our capacity to give a shit, which is wired into us via evolution. You know, we are social animals. We needed to have this care capacity, and it's omnidirectional that it applies not only to people in your life, but also to yourself. And so those five skills that I was referencing, yeah, those are all really kind of on the self love side of the spectrum, you know, having a better relationship with yourself, which of course inexorably leads to better treatment of other people. But there are skills in the family that I think are really just about working, you know, with other people in a more effective way. Communication skills I would put right there at the top.

Yes, And I think those five skills that I reference, those five modalities that I referenced earlier, are all really good for inner work. But there are other skills that I would also put in the family of love skills. And as you know, I defined love quite broadly, not just romantic or familiar love, but just our capacity to give a shit, which is wired into us via evolution. You know, we are social animals. We needed to have this care capacity, and it's omnidirectional that it applies not only to people in your life, but also to yourself. And so those five skills that I was referencing, yeah, those are all really kind of on the self love side of the spectrum, you know, having a better relationship with yourself, which of course inexorably leads to better treatment of other people. But there are skills in the family that I think are really just about working, you know, with other people in a more effective way. Communication skills I would put right there at the top.

I've spent a.

I've spent a.

Couple of years, maybe five years, I think coming up in five years, working with a pair of Buddhist inflective communications coaches who have utterly changed the way I interact with other people.

Couple of years, maybe five years, I think coming up in five years, working with a pair of Buddhist inflective communications coaches who have utterly changed the way I interact with other people.

So, yeah, that's just one example.

So, yeah, that's just one example.

Is or in one of those so Orang j Soher is an incredible meditation teacher who's been on my podcast. It teaches on the ten percent happier meditation app and he has written extensively and he's written a whole book about how to communicate better. The coaches that I work with are slightly different. Their names are Dan Klerman and Moodita Nisker. If you're looking for great guests for your show, I highly recommend them. They're incredible and their system, in my opinion, a bit simpler than Orrin's, and so I've gravitated in that direction. Or bases his stuff on non violent communication, which is this incredible system for communication. Dan and Moudita. It's a little bit more stripped down and I've just found it very easy to get into. It's easy to understand, very hard to do.

Is or in one of those so Orang j Soher is an incredible meditation teacher who's been on my podcast. It teaches on the ten percent happier meditation app and he has written extensively and he's written a whole book about how to communicate better. The coaches that I work with are slightly different. Their names are Dan Klerman and Moodita Nisker. If you're looking for great guests for your show, I highly recommend them. They're incredible and their system, in my opinion, a bit simpler than Orrin's, and so I've gravitated in that direction. Or bases his stuff on non violent communication, which is this incredible system for communication. Dan and Moudita. It's a little bit more stripped down and I've just found it very easy to get into. It's easy to understand, very hard to do.

Yes, you know, there's a book out there. They wrote a number of them. One of my favorites is Crucial Conversations, and they've got other ones Patterson and Carrie and different people, and that's always been the one that just like turned on a light in my head about like how do you relate to other people? And you know, they were talking about this sort of idea of you know, psychological safety, you know, decades before it became a buzzword like it is today. So you recently mentioned on your podcast that you've had a resurgent and very inconvenient set of panic attacks recently. And I very recently have had something come up in my life that I can't really share much about because other people are involved, but it has caused me to have a level of anxiety that it's been twenty years since I felt anything like it, and it creeps up towards panic, you know. And so I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about what works for you there. You know, you've got a great recent podcast with don't have her name in front of me.

Yes, you know, there's a book out there. They wrote a number of them. One of my favorites is Crucial Conversations, and they've got other ones Patterson and Carrie and different people, and that's always been the one that just like turned on a light in my head about like how do you relate to other people? And you know, they were talking about this sort of idea of you know, psychological safety, you know, decades before it became a buzzword like it is today. So you recently mentioned on your podcast that you've had a resurgent and very inconvenient set of panic attacks recently. And I very recently have had something come up in my life that I can't really share much about because other people are involved, but it has caused me to have a level of anxiety that it's been twenty years since I felt anything like it, and it creeps up towards panic, you know. And so I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about what works for you there. You know, you've got a great recent podcast with don't have her name in front of me.

Yes, doctor Lewana Marquez.

Yes, doctor Lewana Marquez.

So do you have any sense of why the panic resurfaced for you after having worked with it skillfully for a number of years or is that not even important to you?

So do you have any sense of why the panic resurfaced for you after having worked with it skillfully for a number of years or is that not even important to you?

That's definitely important to me, this sister rich area. I have so many things to say. I'm going to try to do what the aforementioned Dan and Wouldita often urge me to do, which is to chunk rather than flood, to not say too much at one time, rather than flooding you with information, to give it out in chunks. So I want to talk about what's going on with you. I think an important definitional thing to get straight up front is there's in my mind at least a difference between panic and anxiety. I mean, I think anxiety at its peak can become panic, but I have found different ways to deal with both. So, for example, for me, my recent bouts of panic have almost all been brought on by the two triggers that have always been there for me.

That's definitely important to me, this sister rich area. I have so many things to say. I'm going to try to do what the aforementioned Dan and Wouldita often urge me to do, which is to chunk rather than flood, to not say too much at one time, rather than flooding you with information, to give it out in chunks. So I want to talk about what's going on with you. I think an important definitional thing to get straight up front is there's in my mind at least a difference between panic and anxiety. I mean, I think anxiety at its peak can become panic, but I have found different ways to deal with both. So, for example, for me, my recent bouts of panic have almost all been brought on by the two triggers that have always been there for me.

One is public speaking.

One is public speaking.

My most famous panic attack was on television in two thousand and four.

My most famous panic attack was on television in two thousand and four.

What's it like to have a famous panic attack? Yeah, most people don't say that my most famous panic attack.

What's it like to have a famous panic attack? Yeah, most people don't say that my most famous panic attack.

I often joke about how I've been dining out on that story for a long time. Yeah, it's turned out to be great to have a famous panic attack at the beginning of a new career. But it's not great to have panic attacks. And in the fall of twenty twenty two, I started having panic attacks not only when I had to give public speaking, but also when I was in situations where I felt trapped physically, so elevators and airplanes. And I had struggled occasionally with elevators, you know, over the years, but never like this. I was having to if I was in the city, I would just walk up fifteen flights instead of taking the elevator.

I often joke about how I've been dining out on that story for a long time. Yeah, it's turned out to be great to have a famous panic attack at the beginning of a new career. But it's not great to have panic attacks. And in the fall of twenty twenty two, I started having panic attacks not only when I had to give public speaking, but also when I was in situations where I felt trapped physically, so elevators and airplanes. And I had struggled occasionally with elevators, you know, over the years, but never like this. I was having to if I was in the city, I would just walk up fifteen flights instead of taking the elevator.

That's how terrified I was.

That's how terrified I was.

And I was either getting off of planes because I was unwilling to fly, or having to take a lot of klonopin in order to get myself onto the plane. It was very embarrassing.

And I was either getting off of planes because I was unwilling to fly, or having to take a lot of klonopin in order to get myself onto the plane. It was very embarrassing.

You know.

You know.

Here I am mister meditation guru, not really a guru, but meditation evangelists is the phrase I often use, and you know, mental health quote unquote expert, and I'm freaking out. I can't even get on a fucking plane. And that was very embarrassing and demoralizing. The good news, though, is that I did a bunch of exposure therapy where I literally rode in elevators with a shrink, you know. I did it over the course of months, and I consistently, you know, went back on planes, and sometimes I had to take meds, but then I would taper down so that I was taking very small doses and then none.

Here I am mister meditation guru, not really a guru, but meditation evangelists is the phrase I often use, and you know, mental health quote unquote expert, and I'm freaking out. I can't even get on a fucking plane. And that was very embarrassing and demoralizing. The good news, though, is that I did a bunch of exposure therapy where I literally rode in elevators with a shrink, you know. I did it over the course of months, and I consistently, you know, went back on planes, and sometimes I had to take meds, but then I would taper down so that I was taking very small doses and then none.

I just went at it.

I just went at it.

I want to say aggressively, but that's not the right term, but I would say persistently and doggedly. I really just did not want to let my life get small because panic was stopping me from doing things and it really worked.

I want to say aggressively, but that's not the right term, but I would say persistently and doggedly. I really just did not want to let my life get small because panic was stopping me from doing things and it really worked.

It really worked.

It really worked.

I'm on planes and in elevators now and sometimes I feel a little nervous, but it's really helpful. I'm going to stop talking in a second, but i just want to say that to me, that high high high anxiety of panic is slightly different from daily anxiety, even when it rises to a level where it's kind of debilitating.

I'm on planes and in elevators now and sometimes I feel a little nervous, but it's really helpful. I'm going to stop talking in a second, but i just want to say that to me, that high high high anxiety of panic is slightly different from daily anxiety, even when it rises to a level where it's kind of debilitating.

And I use different tools for each.

And I use different tools for each.

So what to you is the difference between something that would be like high anxiety and panic.

So what to you is the difference between something that would be like high anxiety and panic.

Oh so I kind of think if high anxiety and panic is the same thing as opposed to you know, garden anxiety, background static of fear or so.

Oh so I kind of think if high anxiety and panic is the same thing as opposed to you know, garden anxiety, background static of fear or so.

I'm not really an expert.

I'm not really an expert.

I mean, I'm an expert in my own experience, but this is my way of thinking about it. You know, the daily background of fear that I think I certainly live with. Somebody with anxiety can go up or down depending on the circumstances or whether I've slept or whatever, and it can get pretty high and really be intrusive. But panic or high anxiety is when fight or flight really kicks in and your heart race's lungs sees up. You're completely debilitated, and you feel like you're having a heart attack. So to me, that's the bright line.

I mean, I'm an expert in my own experience, but this is my way of thinking about it. You know, the daily background of fear that I think I certainly live with. Somebody with anxiety can go up or down depending on the circumstances or whether I've slept or whatever, and it can get pretty high and really be intrusive. But panic or high anxiety is when fight or flight really kicks in and your heart race's lungs sees up. You're completely debilitated, and you feel like you're having a heart attack. So to me, that's the bright line.

Yep, because we know that what we might call garden variety anxiety, which makes it sound like a lady's gardening club, which is not what it feels like. There tend to be two elements to it in my mind, right, there's all the thought patterns, and then there's the degree of fear in the body. Yeah, and so you're saying that from your perspective, panic is when that fear is at like a ten, whereas if it's only at an eight, that's anxiety to you. Even though you might notice that your heart is racing, you might notice that you're feeling a little bit short of breath. You might notice like, okay, I can't quite get my bearings here.

Yep, because we know that what we might call garden variety anxiety, which makes it sound like a lady's gardening club, which is not what it feels like. There tend to be two elements to it in my mind, right, there's all the thought patterns, and then there's the degree of fear in the body. Yeah, and so you're saying that from your perspective, panic is when that fear is at like a ten, whereas if it's only at an eight, that's anxiety to you. Even though you might notice that your heart is racing, you might notice that you're feeling a little bit short of breath. You might notice like, okay, I can't quite get my bearings here.

Yes, what you just did there is called reflective listening, where you this is a thing I learned from Dan and Moudito, which is you repeated back to me in a more succinct fashion what I was trying to say in your own words, and yeah, exactly right.

Yes, what you just did there is called reflective listening, where you this is a thing I learned from Dan and Moudito, which is you repeated back to me in a more succinct fashion what I was trying to say in your own words, and yeah, exactly right.

Well, you and I both sort of do it for a living, so I should be good at it after almost a decade, you know, if not, I picked the wrong field. And so you've got a cue events, you've got to give a public talk, you've got to get on an elevator. Those cause panic. The rest of the anxiety, you know, does it get up into that seven eight level for you? Or is that mostly floating? And again I'm talking less about the thoughts and more about the physical sensations.

Well, you and I both sort of do it for a living, so I should be good at it after almost a decade, you know, if not, I picked the wrong field. And so you've got a cue events, you've got to give a public talk, you've got to get on an elevator. Those cause panic. The rest of the anxiety, you know, does it get up into that seven eight level for you? Or is that mostly floating? And again I'm talking less about the thoughts and more about the physical sensations.

Yeah to me.

Yeah to me.

And again I cannot stress strongly enough. I'm not a clinician and I'm not an expert in this, but the stuff that's giving me garden variety anxiety. And yes, I agree with you. There are the thoughts and then they're the physical manifestations rarely gets close to panic. I can get very angry or very distracted. I'm not able to focus on stuff because I'm worried. But the source of the daily anxiety is quite different, at least consciously.

And again I cannot stress strongly enough. I'm not a clinician and I'm not an expert in this, but the stuff that's giving me garden variety anxiety. And yes, I agree with you. There are the thoughts and then they're the physical manifestations rarely gets close to panic. I can get very angry or very distracted. I'm not able to focus on stuff because I'm worried. But the source of the daily anxiety is quite different, at least consciously.

Yep.

Yep.

I think subconsciously maybe all the same thing.

I think subconsciously maybe all the same thing.

But what's giving me anxiety on a day to day basis is not claustrophobia.

But what's giving me anxiety on a day to day basis is not claustrophobia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What gives me panic on the regular is claustrophobia or public look speeding yep.

What gives me panic on the regular is claustrophobia or public look speeding yep.

And you said you had some theories as to why it was resurfacing. If you're comfortable sharing it. No, I don't mind sharing it at all.

And you said you had some theories as to why it was resurfacing. If you're comfortable sharing it. No, I don't mind sharing it at all.

I think when very practical explanations that we were in a pandemic, so I wasn't getting on airplanes as much, and I had moved out of the city where I lived in New York City to the suburbs with my family, and so I wasn't getting on elevators as much. And so after a couple of years of not being exposed, when I started getting back onto planes, especially with masks on, it was harder for me to do. And it was just one experience I had where I was getting on a flight to LA for a big talk and I was getting over COVID. I was clear to travel, but I had to have a kN ninety five on and I was sitting on the plane. I hadn't been on a plane in a long time, and I had the mask on, and I didn't feel good and I started to freak out and I got off the plane, and that just set me so far back. And then it just started showing up everywhere. And that's in my experience, the way panic works. Once it creeps in, it just metastasizes into lots of areas.

I think when very practical explanations that we were in a pandemic, so I wasn't getting on airplanes as much, and I had moved out of the city where I lived in New York City to the suburbs with my family, and so I wasn't getting on elevators as much. And so after a couple of years of not being exposed, when I started getting back onto planes, especially with masks on, it was harder for me to do. And it was just one experience I had where I was getting on a flight to LA for a big talk and I was getting over COVID. I was clear to travel, but I had to have a kN ninety five on and I was sitting on the plane. I hadn't been on a plane in a long time, and I had the mask on, and I didn't feel good and I started to freak out and I got off the plane, and that just set me so far back. And then it just started showing up everywhere. And that's in my experience, the way panic works. Once it creeps in, it just metastasizes into lots of areas.

Of your life.

Of your life.

And if you're not really on top of it. You can start pulling back from everything, you know, not doing the things that might give you panic, and then your life gets super small. Right, And so luckily I have a lot of experience like you do, interviewing mental health experts. I just started calling my shrink. I called doctor Marquez and got some advice from her, and I just started getting treated right away, but it took months.

And if you're not really on top of it. You can start pulling back from everything, you know, not doing the things that might give you panic, and then your life gets super small. Right, And so luckily I have a lot of experience like you do, interviewing mental health experts. I just started calling my shrink. I called doctor Marquez and got some advice from her, and I just started getting treated right away, but it took months.

Yeah, you know, I find what you just shared and the fact that you are sharing it to be courageous in kind of like you said that you are positioned in a certain way in the world. You know, I know I do this with myself when I'm struggling. I'm like, You've interviewed all the leading people in the world about this stuff. You teach programs on this stuff, like what is the matter with you? The Buddhist idea of the second arrow and the shame that comes with it can be so pernicious.

Yeah, you know, I find what you just shared and the fact that you are sharing it to be courageous in kind of like you said that you are positioned in a certain way in the world. You know, I know I do this with myself when I'm struggling. I'm like, You've interviewed all the leading people in the world about this stuff. You teach programs on this stuff, like what is the matter with you? The Buddhist idea of the second arrow and the shame that comes with it can be so pernicious.

Yes, it, Kain.

Yes, it, Kain.

The second Arrow is a great story, another great parable. I think maybe it's technically not a parable, but it's a great story from the Buddhist canon of guys walking through the woods gets hit by an arrow and that hurts obviously, and then starts telling himself a whole story about like why if I always the guy gets hit by the arrow and now I'm not gonna be able to make dinner tonight and all that stuff. And that's the second arrow that we inject voluntarily. And I think we're doing this to ourselves all the time. And I think what has been helpful for me, as allegedly an expert in mental health and meditation and Buddhism, who you know, continues to make lots of mistakes and have lots of setbacks in his life, is to recognize that this was never promised to be linear personal development, personal growth, the spiritual path not a phrase I love.

The second Arrow is a great story, another great parable. I think maybe it's technically not a parable, but it's a great story from the Buddhist canon of guys walking through the woods gets hit by an arrow and that hurts obviously, and then starts telling himself a whole story about like why if I always the guy gets hit by the arrow and now I'm not gonna be able to make dinner tonight and all that stuff. And that's the second arrow that we inject voluntarily. And I think we're doing this to ourselves all the time. And I think what has been helpful for me, as allegedly an expert in mental health and meditation and Buddhism, who you know, continues to make lots of mistakes and have lots of setbacks in his life, is to recognize that this was never promised to be linear personal development, personal growth, the spiritual path not a phrase I love.

It's not supposed to.

It's not supposed to.

Be like a hockey stick that just goes up in an uninterrupted way, like the life is going to happen to you. And I think it's just been important for me to remind myself of that, and it's another example of self love.

Be like a hockey stick that just goes up in an uninterrupted way, like the life is going to happen to you. And I think it's just been important for me to remind myself of that, and it's another example of self love.

Actually, yeah, that is the way we tend to think about growth, as in it goes in one direction, and when it doesn't, it can be very very discouraging. And you know, I often think of it almost like a I don't know who I heard say this, but like a spiral staircase, you know, like if you go on a spiral staircase, you may come buy that very scary picture. But ideally when you get to it next time, you're slightly better than before, or at least have more tools in how to work with it than before. But it doesn't mean that the picture doesn't scare a shit out of you.

Actually, yeah, that is the way we tend to think about growth, as in it goes in one direction, and when it doesn't, it can be very very discouraging. And you know, I often think of it almost like a I don't know who I heard say this, but like a spiral staircase, you know, like if you go on a spiral staircase, you may come buy that very scary picture. But ideally when you get to it next time, you're slightly better than before, or at least have more tools in how to work with it than before. But it doesn't mean that the picture doesn't scare a shit out of you.

Yes, a friend of mine told me a story about something that his shrink said to him. My friend was complaining to his shrink about how he yet again made the same mistake that he had made a million times. I can't believe I did this you know thing x again And the shrink said, was it as bad.

Yes, a friend of mine told me a story about something that his shrink said to him. My friend was complaining to his shrink about how he yet again made the same mistake that he had made a million times. I can't believe I did this you know thing x again And the shrink said, was it as bad.

As the last time?

As the last time?

That's just a great way to look at it, you know, And that is a great way to remove the second arrow.

That's just a great way to look at it, you know, And that is a great way to remove the second arrow.

I think it's so important to do what you are doing or I'm attempting to do, which is to share that doesn't matter where you get in life, you know, life still can kick your ass. And I've talked to enough people and I think you have too where I've recognized that. After a while, I was like, Oh, they're incredibly wise people. They have a lot to share with the world, and they still have their moments. Now, you know, some people I don't know, like the Dalai Lama, so you might say, well, not the Dalai Lama. There's some people that maybe get to a different level, but most of us in Western society, there is some degree of life still comes at you and sometimes it takes a while to recalibrate.

I think it's so important to do what you are doing or I'm attempting to do, which is to share that doesn't matter where you get in life, you know, life still can kick your ass. And I've talked to enough people and I think you have too where I've recognized that. After a while, I was like, Oh, they're incredibly wise people. They have a lot to share with the world, and they still have their moments. Now, you know, some people I don't know, like the Dalai Lama, so you might say, well, not the Dalai Lama. There's some people that maybe get to a different level, but most of us in Western society, there is some degree of life still comes at you and sometimes it takes a while to recalibrate.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

One of the best Buddhist book titles is by a teacher named Jack Cornfield, incredible meditation teacher, and he wrote a book called After the Ecstasy the Laundry yep. And you know, you can have these incredible transformative experiences in meditation, with psychedelics, in therapy, in nature, and then you got to do the laundry, and sometimes the laundry sucks.

One of the best Buddhist book titles is by a teacher named Jack Cornfield, incredible meditation teacher, and he wrote a book called After the Ecstasy the Laundry yep. And you know, you can have these incredible transformative experiences in meditation, with psychedelics, in therapy, in nature, and then you got to do the laundry, and sometimes the laundry sucks.

Yep. So a recent podcast series that you guys started doing I love the idea of and the question really is can you get fit sanely right in that you know, many of us have a relationship with exercise that has been driven by very often poor body image or insecurity or trying to look a certain way or going overboard. And I'm curious, what did you learn from doing that series about getting fit in a sane way. I know, I'm asking you to condense what were many episodes into a few key thoughts, but what were some of the big takeaways for you for that?

Yep. So a recent podcast series that you guys started doing I love the idea of and the question really is can you get fit sanely right in that you know, many of us have a relationship with exercise that has been driven by very often poor body image or insecurity or trying to look a certain way or going overboard. And I'm curious, what did you learn from doing that series about getting fit in a sane way. I know, I'm asking you to condense what were many episodes into a few key thoughts, but what were some of the big takeaways for you for that?

First of all, thank you for the kind words about the series, and also that it was six episodes and so there was so much stuff in there. But the thing that leaps to mind as you asked me that question, like, what was the takeaway when after interviewing all of these experts in getting healthier in various ways. One of the people we interviewed was a teacher named Kara Lai. Lai is her last name. She's a Buddhist teacher and also a social worker and used to run marathons barefoot. So she was a hardcore exerciser and then got lymes disease and has really not been able to exercise as much and has really wrestled with that. And she talked a lot about why we exercise, like what is driving you to do this? And that really got me thinking, like why am I spending so much time in the gym? What is my motivation? Is it to keep up with people I'm seeing on Instagram?

First of all, thank you for the kind words about the series, and also that it was six episodes and so there was so much stuff in there. But the thing that leaps to mind as you asked me that question, like, what was the takeaway when after interviewing all of these experts in getting healthier in various ways. One of the people we interviewed was a teacher named Kara Lai. Lai is her last name. She's a Buddhist teacher and also a social worker and used to run marathons barefoot. So she was a hardcore exerciser and then got lymes disease and has really not been able to exercise as much and has really wrestled with that. And she talked a lot about why we exercise, like what is driving you to do this? And that really got me thinking, like why am I spending so much time in the gym? What is my motivation? Is it to keep up with people I'm seeing on Instagram?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I think in part and that's fine. We live in this culture where to be impacted by the culture. I'm not saying that it's bad to have that motivation. What I'm saying is is that the fuel you want, can we switch to something else and what impact might that have?

I think in part and that's fine. We live in this culture where to be impacted by the culture. I'm not saying that it's bad to have that motivation. What I'm saying is is that the fuel you want, can we switch to something else and what impact might that have?

So, for example, can.

So, for example, can.

I really consciously boost my attention on my motivation being staying healthy for my now eight year old son as he gets older, and what would the ramifications of that be. So, yeah, maybe I'll spend less time working on my biceps because I like the way my arms look in T shirts, and more time working on I don't know my core because that will help me get up or tie my own shoes when I'm one hundred if I live that long. And so I think it can change your goals and also it can really, in my experience, lead to stickier habits. You know, if I've tried to get into the habit. And again, this is going to be one of those things that's going to sound cheesy, but of you know, when I get on the exercise bike or I this morning, I took a run, just taking a second and saying like, I'm doing this to make myself happier and stronger so that I can make other people happier and stronger, and so that I can be around for my son and my wife.

I really consciously boost my attention on my motivation being staying healthy for my now eight year old son as he gets older, and what would the ramifications of that be. So, yeah, maybe I'll spend less time working on my biceps because I like the way my arms look in T shirts, and more time working on I don't know my core because that will help me get up or tie my own shoes when I'm one hundred if I live that long. And so I think it can change your goals and also it can really, in my experience, lead to stickier habits. You know, if I've tried to get into the habit. And again, this is going to be one of those things that's going to sound cheesy, but of you know, when I get on the exercise bike or I this morning, I took a run, just taking a second and saying like, I'm doing this to make myself happier and stronger so that I can make other people happier and stronger, and so that I can be around for my son and my wife.

I don't know, I have.

I don't know, I have.

More grit in my exercise regime, and my priorities have changed because my motivation is clearer.

More grit in my exercise regime, and my priorities have changed because my motivation is clearer.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I agree.

I also think that for whatever reason, the fuel, the ego fuel, doesn't work for me in the way that it did when I was twenty five. It's just not strong enough necessarily to get me to do it consistently. I think the biggest change for me was when I realized, like, like you said, this makes me healthier and stronger. And for me it was really emotionally and mentally when I realized, like, emotionally and mentally, this is the practice that is better for me than any of the others. If I had to set meditation aside, if I could keep one of the two, I would say, let me keep exercise, you know, let me keep exercise strictly from a mental health emotional health perspective. And that's really good because it shrinks the time horizon between like the action and the reward. You know, even wanting to be healthy for your son, there's a way in which you can be like wow, But yeah, I mean I got twenty more good years before I have to really start to worry about that. Whereas I'm like, if I want to feel better this afternoon, so I can, you know, have more energy, Like the benefit is so close as humans, the bigger that span gets between the action and the benefit, the harder it is to sort of really work with ourselves more facing resistance.