In case you're just recently joining us, or however long you've been a listener of the show. You may not realize we have years and years of incredible episodes in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be new to you, but if not, it is definitely worth another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Michelle Gielan.

In case you're just recently joining us, or however long you've been a listener of the show. You may not realize we have years and years of incredible episodes in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be new to you, but if not, it is definitely worth another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Michelle Gielan.

As a researcher.

As a researcher.

If I note the first few words of a conversation, I can have a high degree of likelihood of predicting the outcome.

If I note the first few words of a conversation, I can have a high degree of likelihood of predicting the outcome.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Michelle gielan national CBS News anchor turned positive psychology researcher, and she is the best selling author of Broadcasting Happiness. Michelle is the founder of the Institute for Applied Positive Research and is partnered with Arianna Huffington to study how transformative stories fuel success. She is an executive producer of The Happiness Advantage special on PBS and a featured professor on Oprah's Happiness Course. Michelle holds a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, and her research and advice have received attention from The New York Times, Washington Post, Forbes, CNN, Fox, and Harvard Business Review.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Michelle gielan national CBS News anchor turned positive psychology researcher, and she is the best selling author of Broadcasting Happiness. Michelle is the founder of the Institute for Applied Positive Research and is partnered with Arianna Huffington to study how transformative stories fuel success. She is an executive producer of The Happiness Advantage special on PBS and a featured professor on Oprah's Happiness Course. Michelle holds a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, and her research and advice have received attention from The New York Times, Washington Post, Forbes, CNN, Fox, and Harvard Business Review.

Hi Michelle, Welcome to the show.

Hi Michelle, Welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here with you.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here with you.

I'm happy to have you on. You work with and your husband is Sean Aker, who wrote a book called The Happiness Advantage, and you have a new book out called Broadcasting Happiness, which we'll dive into here in just a minute. But before we do. Let's start like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grand father says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I'm happy to have you on. You work with and your husband is Sean Aker, who wrote a book called The Happiness Advantage, and you have a new book out called Broadcasting Happiness, which we'll dive into here in just a minute. But before we do. Let's start like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grand father says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well.

Well.

I love that parable ever since I read it many many years ago, and now I get to look at it from a scientific perspective as a positive psychology researcher. And what's amazing is that, you know, our brain, Our brain's an incredible processor. We can process forty to fifty bits of information every single second.

I love that parable ever since I read it many many years ago, and now I get to look at it from a scientific perspective as a positive psychology researcher. And what's amazing is that, you know, our brain, Our brain's an incredible processor. We can process forty to fifty bits of information every single second.

Of the day.

Of the day.

The challenge is that from all of our nerve endings, our brain has bombarded by more than eleven million bits of information every second So what that means is inherently there are choices and how we devote our attention, right, because if we first focus on the hassles, complaints, problems and challenges, we literally don't leave our brain resources left over to focus on the things that we're grateful for, the meaning embedded and the work that we're doing, the close relationships that we have. And so just like you know, the little boy asked who wins for us, the way our life life unfolds is a result of how we devote our attention. If we can make those positive, conscious choices, then our life completely changes in a positive way.

The challenge is that from all of our nerve endings, our brain has bombarded by more than eleven million bits of information every second So what that means is inherently there are choices and how we devote our attention, right, because if we first focus on the hassles, complaints, problems and challenges, we literally don't leave our brain resources left over to focus on the things that we're grateful for, the meaning embedded and the work that we're doing, the close relationships that we have. And so just like you know, the little boy asked who wins for us, the way our life life unfolds is a result of how we devote our attention. If we can make those positive, conscious choices, then our life completely changes in a positive way.

Yeah, I agree completely. I love that comparing our attention, you know where we're putting our attention to the wolf parable. Now, your book is called Broadcasting Happiness, and it comes from the idea that you were an anchor woman and what you started realizing was that the way the news was being reported was always negative and it was actually driving people away from it, and so you began looking at ways that you could broadcast a better message. Is that a good summary of kind of where you started.

Yeah, I agree completely. I love that comparing our attention, you know where we're putting our attention to the wolf parable. Now, your book is called Broadcasting Happiness, and it comes from the idea that you were an anchor woman and what you started realizing was that the way the news was being reported was always negative and it was actually driving people away from it, and so you began looking at ways that you could broadcast a better message. Is that a good summary of kind of where you started.

Yeah, I mean, I was so lucky to have the opportunity and the platform of two national news programs at CBS. But what I quickly saw was that a lot of the news we were reporting was so negative. But it was more than just the negative to positive stories. It was a the fact that a lot of the stories just merely focused on the problem. We didn't talk about what could be done about the problem. And so what we see now in our research is that a barrage of negative news stories basically feeds you this lie that your behavior doesn't matter. Because if we just constantly talk about problem, problem, problem, problem, and we don't focus on what is our role in solving these situations, then we are left feeling hopeless and helpless. And that's what a lot of people feel when they just see a newscast for a couple minutes or they read stories online. More recently, you know, since I left CBS News, I partnered with my husband, Shawn ay Korn ariana Huffington, and we've been studying the effective news on the brain.

Yeah, I mean, I was so lucky to have the opportunity and the platform of two national news programs at CBS. But what I quickly saw was that a lot of the news we were reporting was so negative. But it was more than just the negative to positive stories. It was a the fact that a lot of the stories just merely focused on the problem. We didn't talk about what could be done about the problem. And so what we see now in our research is that a barrage of negative news stories basically feeds you this lie that your behavior doesn't matter. Because if we just constantly talk about problem, problem, problem, problem, and we don't focus on what is our role in solving these situations, then we are left feeling hopeless and helpless. And that's what a lot of people feel when they just see a newscast for a couple minutes or they read stories online. More recently, you know, since I left CBS News, I partnered with my husband, Shawn ay Korn ariana Huffington, and we've been studying the effective news on the brain.

And what we found is that just three minutes of.

And what we found is that just three minutes of.

Negative news in the morning can lead to you having a twenty seven percent higher likelihood of reporting your day is unhappy six to eight hours later. So what that means is that negative mood and mindset we adopt in the morning is where know, making breakfast or we're on our way to work actually sticks with us through our workday and we're still feeling the effects, you know, when the day is almost over.

Negative news in the morning can lead to you having a twenty seven percent higher likelihood of reporting your day is unhappy six to eight hours later. So what that means is that negative mood and mindset we adopt in the morning is where know, making breakfast or we're on our way to work actually sticks with us through our workday and we're still feeling the effects, you know, when the day is almost over.

Yeah. And you also talk about a study where people who watch the local news view their city as significantly more dangerous than it really is. So they think it's more dangerous than what the actual facts say. Yeah.

Yeah. And you also talk about a study where people who watch the local news view their city as significantly more dangerous than it really is. So they think it's more dangerous than what the actual facts say. Yeah.

Absolutely, And so it goes back to sort of what we were talking about at the top of the program, which is, you know, you only have these finite resources. If we suppen if we spend those resources filling our brains with how dangerous the world is, how our community is failing, how things are going wrong, how the world is broken, then our brain doesn't have those resources to look at ways in which our behavior matters or which ways in which we can affect a positive outcome. You know, the title of my book Broadcasting Happiness, someone wrote on a comment on Amazon something which you know, I totally agree with, which he is like, well, in some ways the title doesn't do the content justice and that you're not saying, hey, just broadcast some you know, Pollyanna Rose colored glasses look of the world.

Absolutely, And so it goes back to sort of what we were talking about at the top of the program, which is, you know, you only have these finite resources. If we suppen if we spend those resources filling our brains with how dangerous the world is, how our community is failing, how things are going wrong, how the world is broken, then our brain doesn't have those resources to look at ways in which our behavior matters or which ways in which we can affect a positive outcome. You know, the title of my book Broadcasting Happiness, someone wrote on a comment on Amazon something which you know, I totally agree with, which he is like, well, in some ways the title doesn't do the content justice and that you're not saying, hey, just broadcast some you know, Pollyanna Rose colored glasses look of the world.

We don't want to just be.

We don't want to just be.

Talking about puppies and kiddies and water skiing squirrels, right.

Talking about puppies and kiddies and water skiing squirrels, right.

It's really about things though.

It's really about things though.

Yeah, those are all great things, especially the squirrel.

Yeah, those are all great things, especially the squirrel.

We really want to be focusing, you know, we want to spend some of our resources, of course, like laughing and having fun in the humor, but we also want to talk about if we're talking about problems, talk about what we can do and source out solutions, and then also focus on stories of individuals and organizations where people have overcome challenges or they've done inspiring things, and that gives our brain hope and optimism that we too can create progress and success in our own lives.

We really want to be focusing, you know, we want to spend some of our resources, of course, like laughing and having fun in the humor, but we also want to talk about if we're talking about problems, talk about what we can do and source out solutions, and then also focus on stories of individuals and organizations where people have overcome challenges or they've done inspiring things, and that gives our brain hope and optimism that we too can create progress and success in our own lives.

There's a lot of things in what you just said there that I want to touch on. The first is listeners who have been with the show for a long time know that I'm skeptical of positive thinking, and that's not what you're advocating here, and so I'll ask you to maybe elaborate a little bit more on you know, why this isn't positive thinking. And then the other thing that you talked about through all of those things is not about ignoring that there's bad things, but it's about not believing that we are helpless in the face of them, or not believing that there isn't something we can do, and that feeling of helplessness or that there's nothing we can do it can be one of the leading causes of depression.

There's a lot of things in what you just said there that I want to touch on. The first is listeners who have been with the show for a long time know that I'm skeptical of positive thinking, and that's not what you're advocating here, and so I'll ask you to maybe elaborate a little bit more on you know, why this isn't positive thinking. And then the other thing that you talked about through all of those things is not about ignoring that there's bad things, but it's about not believing that we are helpless in the face of them, or not believing that there isn't something we can do, and that feeling of helplessness or that there's nothing we can do it can be one of the leading causes of depression.

Yeah, so the reason I left CBS was because I wanted to understand how we can talk about the negative, whether it be on TV or around the dinner table in our businesses, in a way that does not leave people feeling helpless and hopeless, but actually leaves you feeling empowered and ready to take that next step to create positive action. Psychologically, it's a completely different state to be in that latter state. And so you know, I got the opportunity to study under doctor Martin Seligman, who's the founder of the field of positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and he's actually the person who did incredible work on learned helplessness. Originally, learned helplessness is this learned behavior that your mind can adopt as a result of learning that your behavior doesn't matter. It's actually also considered the gateway to depression. Now, he saw how powerful that mindset can be in our lives and how that mindset can be learned. And he said, well, what if we flip the coin over and we look at the other side, and we say, well, can we teach then learned basically empowerment, you know, teaching somebody their behavior matters. And so what I study now is the science behind a success mindset. What causes you to be most successful.

Yeah, so the reason I left CBS was because I wanted to understand how we can talk about the negative, whether it be on TV or around the dinner table in our businesses, in a way that does not leave people feeling helpless and hopeless, but actually leaves you feeling empowered and ready to take that next step to create positive action. Psychologically, it's a completely different state to be in that latter state. And so you know, I got the opportunity to study under doctor Martin Seligman, who's the founder of the field of positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and he's actually the person who did incredible work on learned helplessness. Originally, learned helplessness is this learned behavior that your mind can adopt as a result of learning that your behavior doesn't matter. It's actually also considered the gateway to depression. Now, he saw how powerful that mindset can be in our lives and how that mindset can be learned. And he said, well, what if we flip the coin over and we look at the other side, and we say, well, can we teach then learned basically empowerment, you know, teaching somebody their behavior matters. And so what I study now is the science behind a success mindset. What causes you to be most successful.

In your life?

In your life?

What are the ingredients, how does your mind work as a result, and then how can other people import those elements into their own thinking to achieve more and thrive. And what we found our research is that there are three greatest predictors of long term levels of success. So we study this primarily in the work domain because we work with Fortune five hundred companies and schools and other organizations, but this also very much applies to one's relationships and their home life and their parenting. And what we found in short is this that it's work optimism, what we call support provision, and then your relationship with stress. So work optimism is the belief that your behavior matters and the expectation of good things to happen. It's taking a realistic assessment of the present moment.

What are the ingredients, how does your mind work as a result, and then how can other people import those elements into their own thinking to achieve more and thrive. And what we found our research is that there are three greatest predictors of long term levels of success. So we study this primarily in the work domain because we work with Fortune five hundred companies and schools and other organizations, but this also very much applies to one's relationships and their home life and their parenting. And what we found in short is this that it's work optimism, what we call support provision, and then your relationship with stress. So work optimism is the belief that your behavior matters and the expectation of good things to happen. It's taking a realistic assessment of the present moment.

Like you mentioned but.

Like you mentioned but.

Then in the midst of all those challenges, believing you can actually do something about it and good things will eventually come about if we work hard. The second one is our story about stress. Do we view a stressful event as a challenge where our brain gets lit up to its highest potential and our brain and body are ready for that challenge, or do we cower and fear and look at it like a threat where our brain suffers consequences as a result. And the last one, which I find actually to me in some ways the most exciting, is this idea of support provision. Instead of asking how supportive is my company of me and my success and my progress, we look at something that's incredibly more predictive of long term success, which is how much you as an individual support the people around you. And the people who are in the top quartile the top twenty five percent of that metric are actually, as just one example in our research, forty percent more likely to receive a promotion over the next year than the people in the lowest quartile. When people soar in the top levels of all three of these metrics, they make more money.

Then in the midst of all those challenges, believing you can actually do something about it and good things will eventually come about if we work hard. The second one is our story about stress. Do we view a stressful event as a challenge where our brain gets lit up to its highest potential and our brain and body are ready for that challenge, or do we cower and fear and look at it like a threat where our brain suffers consequences as a result. And the last one, which I find actually to me in some ways the most exciting, is this idea of support provision. Instead of asking how supportive is my company of me and my success and my progress, we look at something that's incredibly more predictive of long term success, which is how much you as an individual support the people around you. And the people who are in the top quartile the top twenty five percent of that metric are actually, as just one example in our research, forty percent more likely to receive a promotion over the next year than the people in the lowest quartile. When people soar in the top levels of all three of these metrics, they make more money.

Over the course of their career.

Over the course of their career.

They are just incredibly successful on many fronts, But what's most exciting is that these three elements of our mindset are malleable, so at any point in our lives, we can develop higher levels of all.

They are just incredibly successful on many fronts, But what's most exciting is that these three elements of our mindset are malleable, so at any point in our lives, we can develop higher levels of all.

Three of them.

Three of them.

The last one is interesting because you're talking about how we support other people and your book Broadcasting Happiness. That's kind of obviously it's a play on your time as a broadcaster, but it's also about the idea that we're all putting something out into the world that affects those people around us.

The last one is interesting because you're talking about how we support other people and your book Broadcasting Happiness. That's kind of obviously it's a play on your time as a broadcaster, but it's also about the idea that we're all putting something out into the world that affects those people around us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of the research in positive psychology, which is basically studying happiness and human potential, has looked at how we as individuals can thrive, and what my work now is looking at is, Okay, so when you have a positive mindset and you've done.

A lot of the research in positive psychology, which is basically studying happiness and human potential, has looked at how we as individuals can thrive, and what my work now is looking at is, Okay, so when you have a positive mindset and you've done.

All that work, how do you ripple that out to other people?

All that work, how do you ripple that out to other people?

And maybe also when you're not feeling as positive, how do you still have a beneficial impact on the people around you. We have a new program coming out called Inspire Happiness on PBS, and it was a result of the work that we did with companies and individuals where we would talk about all this research that looked at how you as an individual can thrive and people would say, Okay, well, so I'm totally into this, but how exactly do I help my child do well in school when I can see that they have potential, but you know my son doesn't believe it, Or how do I my negative spouse Like I'm optimistic one, but you know, maybe my spouse is not as optimistic as I'd hope for them to be. And so our show is and a lot of the content it's drawn from some of the ideas of my book. It revolves around this concept of you know, you have the power through what you say and how you say it, to really significantly change other people for the better. But we walk through the steps and give the tools of exactly how to do it. And then also we talk about the fact that you know, it is much easier to choose happiness yourself when you're able to help the people around you become happier at the same time.

And maybe also when you're not feeling as positive, how do you still have a beneficial impact on the people around you. We have a new program coming out called Inspire Happiness on PBS, and it was a result of the work that we did with companies and individuals where we would talk about all this research that looked at how you as an individual can thrive and people would say, Okay, well, so I'm totally into this, but how exactly do I help my child do well in school when I can see that they have potential, but you know my son doesn't believe it, Or how do I my negative spouse Like I'm optimistic one, but you know, maybe my spouse is not as optimistic as I'd hope for them to be. And so our show is and a lot of the content it's drawn from some of the ideas of my book. It revolves around this concept of you know, you have the power through what you say and how you say it, to really significantly change other people for the better. But we walk through the steps and give the tools of exactly how to do it. And then also we talk about the fact that you know, it is much easier to choose happiness yourself when you're able to help the people around you become happier at the same time.

Yeah, the importance of other people is a theme that keeps coming up on the show over and over again. And when you were saying that the supporting other people, it made me think of one of our guests, Chris Hoak, who when I read him The Wolf Parable, he said, well, the way I think about that is what wolf am I feeding in the people around me? And I thought that was really interesting perspective on it and really talks very much to what you're saying.

Yeah, the importance of other people is a theme that keeps coming up on the show over and over again. And when you were saying that the supporting other people, it made me think of one of our guests, Chris Hoak, who when I read him The Wolf Parable, he said, well, the way I think about that is what wolf am I feeding in the people around me? And I thought that was really interesting perspective on it and really talks very much to what you're saying.

Yes, I love that, you know, as a result of this work.

Yes, I love that, you know, as a result of this work.

I mean, of course I use it when I do work with clients, but I also end up using it on myself and in our family. We battle test it in our own house, and being married to a happiness research I have zero excuse not to do it. But what I have become hyper aware about is when I am feeding that other wolf, the wolf we don't want to feed right because I'm feeling negative. But I haven't slept very well the night before. I've got a two year old. As any parent knows, that can happen, and you know, I wake up in a grumpy mood, and I get to a point where I'm saying, Okay, I know that my day is not going to be as happy as it could have been had I just gotten a good night's sleep. But am I going to now inflict my suffering on everybody that I come into contact with? Or am I going to be a little bit more emotionally evolved hopefully you know, practice it every day and and just and realize that you know, what I talk about and whether I complain or whether I'm you know, moaning about how I didn't sleep, that really does impact other people. And so I think it's you know, a lot of people will say so when I give talks that companies, I'll say, so, how many of you raise your hand? Have ever heard from somebody you can't change other people? And I get I mean literally everyone raises their hand, right, You've heard this many many times.

I mean, of course I use it when I do work with clients, but I also end up using it on myself and in our family. We battle test it in our own house, and being married to a happiness research I have zero excuse not to do it. But what I have become hyper aware about is when I am feeding that other wolf, the wolf we don't want to feed right because I'm feeling negative. But I haven't slept very well the night before. I've got a two year old. As any parent knows, that can happen, and you know, I wake up in a grumpy mood, and I get to a point where I'm saying, Okay, I know that my day is not going to be as happy as it could have been had I just gotten a good night's sleep. But am I going to now inflict my suffering on everybody that I come into contact with? Or am I going to be a little bit more emotionally evolved hopefully you know, practice it every day and and just and realize that you know, what I talk about and whether I complain or whether I'm you know, moaning about how I didn't sleep, that really does impact other people. And so I think it's you know, a lot of people will say so when I give talks that companies, I'll say, so, how many of you raise your hand? Have ever heard from somebody you can't change other people? And I get I mean literally everyone raises their hand, right, You've heard this many many times.

Over the course of your life.

Over the course of your life.

But we know, though that even though we're buying into this societal misbelief, we know that we change people all the time through what we talk about and even our nonverbal body language. And so owning up to that power and responsibility I think is a really important thing to do.

But we know, though that even though we're buying into this societal misbelief, we know that we change people all the time through what we talk about and even our nonverbal body language. And so owning up to that power and responsibility I think is a really important thing to do.

I do think it's a myth also that we can't change other people. I think that we can't change other people and do exactly what we want them to be or doing exactly what we want. But yeah, we do have influence over people all the time, both positively and negatively.

I do think it's a myth also that we can't change other people. I think that we can't change other people and do exactly what we want them to be or doing exactly what we want. But yeah, we do have influence over people all the time, both positively and negatively.

Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, if we see it in the research.

Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, if we see it in the research.

I love, there's this one study from the University of California Riverside where researchers asked three people to go sit in a room for just two minutes without speaking, and then they tested their mood before and after. And what they found is that the person who's the most non verbally expressive right because they're not saying a word, but it's how they sat there, their body language, that their arms crossed, their faces frowning. Do they seem more positive and relaxed. Whoever was the most expressive person in the room influences the mood of the other two people significantly. And that's just two minutes. Can you imagine if we have the ability to talk to people and to say meaningful things, we can change other people and it happens all the time.

I love, there's this one study from the University of California Riverside where researchers asked three people to go sit in a room for just two minutes without speaking, and then they tested their mood before and after. And what they found is that the person who's the most non verbally expressive right because they're not saying a word, but it's how they sat there, their body language, that their arms crossed, their faces frowning. Do they seem more positive and relaxed. Whoever was the most expressive person in the room influences the mood of the other two people significantly. And that's just two minutes. Can you imagine if we have the ability to talk to people and to say meaningful things, we can change other people and it happens all the time.

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We could all use the occasional nudge, a little wake up from the autopilot we fall into in our day to day routine. That's why we send brief text reminders to listeners of the show for free. The texts help you stay on track with what you're learning from the podcast episodes we release on Tuesdays and Fridays. They periodically prompt you to pause for a second and become more present and mindful, and encourage you to engage with the week's podcast topics in a bite sized, short and simple manner. We've heard from listeners that these texts help them take a moment to reconnect with what's important amidst the busyness of daily life. Someone said it feels like a little bit of wisdom is being whispered into my psyche, which I thought was cool. So, if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to oneufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.

So go back to my earlier thoughts on positive thinking, because I want to ask you sort of what's the difference between what you are proposing and what's traditionally labeled as positive thinking positive thinking?

So go back to my earlier thoughts on positive thinking, because I want to ask you sort of what's the difference between what you are proposing and what's traditionally labeled as positive thinking positive thinking?

I think, well, there's two major differences. First of all, we're looking at the science behind all of this, which says, okay, we know, for instance, that gratitude is good for you, right, and every single major religious tradition talks about it. All the leading thinkers through the ages have touted the positive side of being grateful and practicing it. What we ask is researchers is okay, well, how much should you do specifically, how do you do it? Do you involve other people in the practice, should you write in a notebook? Is it better on your computer? And if we do it, how much does it change you? You know, there was a study done with I love this study eighty year old grumpy Pessimists.

I think, well, there's two major differences. First of all, we're looking at the science behind all of this, which says, okay, we know, for instance, that gratitude is good for you, right, and every single major religious tradition talks about it. All the leading thinkers through the ages have touted the positive side of being grateful and practicing it. What we ask is researchers is okay, well, how much should you do specifically, how do you do it? Do you involve other people in the practice, should you write in a notebook? Is it better on your computer? And if we do it, how much does it change you? You know, there was a study done with I love this study eighty year old grumpy Pessimists.

And research I try to take co oximistic.

And research I try to take co oximistic.

And what I love about it is that, you know, these guys who had been practicing pessimism their entire life by doing gratitudes, by doing three writing down three new and unique things, they were grateful for specific things each day. Those that kept up the practice for six months went from testing on a metric as low to moderate level pessimists, they all of a sudden were testing as low to moderate level optimists. So we could see a change there. And the other thing is that sometimes positive thinking can be mislabeled as I mean or accurately labeled, depending on what you know. The person's promoting as sort of I'm going to think positively and stuff will happen and everything's going to be great. What I think is that you need a positive vision in your life, full of hope and optimism to get you going.

And what I love about it is that, you know, these guys who had been practicing pessimism their entire life by doing gratitudes, by doing three writing down three new and unique things, they were grateful for specific things each day. Those that kept up the practice for six months went from testing on a metric as low to moderate level pessimists, they all of a sudden were testing as low to moderate level optimists. So we could see a change there. And the other thing is that sometimes positive thinking can be mislabeled as I mean or accurately labeled, depending on what you know. The person's promoting as sort of I'm going to think positively and stuff will happen and everything's going to be great. What I think is that you need a positive vision in your life, full of hope and optimism to get you going.

That's the good fuel. But it takes action behind that.

That's the good fuel. But it takes action behind that.

So broadcasting happiness is broadcasting that mindset while also taking the action to fulfill the vision of what you're looking for.

So broadcasting happiness is broadcasting that mindset while also taking the action to fulfill the vision of what you're looking for.

Yeah, one of the questions that I talk about on the show, and I'm going to see if I can frame it in a way that makes sense. But there's a lot of talk about, hey, when you have an emotion, you should try and feel that emotion and not repress it. And then there's the other side of the coin that sort of says you should put a positive spin on things that happen in your life. How do you reconcile those two things for yourself?

Yeah, one of the questions that I talk about on the show, and I'm going to see if I can frame it in a way that makes sense. But there's a lot of talk about, hey, when you have an emotion, you should try and feel that emotion and not repress it. And then there's the other side of the coin that sort of says you should put a positive spin on things that happen in your life. How do you reconcile those two things for yourself?

I would say that it's important to feel emotions. We actually we absolutely want to be in touch with them, but we have to catch ourselves not to allow ourselves to dwell in or ruminate on these negative emotions because ultimately, I don't think that actually helps you. There is value to kicking your brain out of that negative state, either distracting it or compelling it to move to a more positive place.

I would say that it's important to feel emotions. We actually we absolutely want to be in touch with them, but we have to catch ourselves not to allow ourselves to dwell in or ruminate on these negative emotions because ultimately, I don't think that actually helps you. There is value to kicking your brain out of that negative state, either distracting it or compelling it to move to a more positive place.

You know. It's interesting.

You know. It's interesting.

So my husband and I when we had our son Leo, initially when he started walking around and you know, falling down and stuff, we had completely different responses to him getting hurt, So not hurt really badly, right, but just like a little bump and he starts crying. And so I would come to our son and say, oh, Leo, did you get hurt? Oh, I'm so sorry, honey, where does it hurt? And Sean, while showing compassion, would very quickly switch to distraction, you know, and so we say, oh, look at that, there's a fire truck, or oh, look what's going on? And what we ended up we had a long discussion about this, and what we ended up doing was deciding to kind of meet in the middle where we honor the feelings that he was having. Right, it hurt, his knee was skinned, and we got to address that, but also not staying stuck there. And so then I adopted more of his his approach, which was like, Okay, now let's let's distract and let's figure out what's positive about life that we can move our brain onto.

So my husband and I when we had our son Leo, initially when he started walking around and you know, falling down and stuff, we had completely different responses to him getting hurt, So not hurt really badly, right, but just like a little bump and he starts crying. And so I would come to our son and say, oh, Leo, did you get hurt? Oh, I'm so sorry, honey, where does it hurt? And Sean, while showing compassion, would very quickly switch to distraction, you know, and so we say, oh, look at that, there's a fire truck, or oh, look what's going on? And what we ended up we had a long discussion about this, and what we ended up doing was deciding to kind of meet in the middle where we honor the feelings that he was having. Right, it hurt, his knee was skinned, and we got to address that, but also not staying stuck there. And so then I adopted more of his his approach, which was like, Okay, now let's let's distract and let's figure out what's positive about life that we can move our brain onto.

And I think it's worked really really well.

And I think it's worked really really well.

Think that's a great analogy, and I also believe that it's the middle ground on a lot of these things that make sense, Like even what we were talking about before about you can't change other people that's such an extreme position. You know, there's somewhere between I have total control and I have no control over other people. That's sort of in the middle. And I think with that is the same thing in an analogy that I like to use, and you might have better ones because you do this more often. Is like if I walk into a hotel room, which I do often, if I look, there's inevitably something about that hotel room I'm going to be dissatisfied with, and there's something in that hotel room that I'm going to really like. And which of those am I going to choose? To back to your first piece, you talked about which of those am I going to put my attention on? And sometimes I have to very consciously keep putting my attention back to the positive one. But I think it does yield benefits.

Think that's a great analogy, and I also believe that it's the middle ground on a lot of these things that make sense, Like even what we were talking about before about you can't change other people that's such an extreme position. You know, there's somewhere between I have total control and I have no control over other people. That's sort of in the middle. And I think with that is the same thing in an analogy that I like to use, and you might have better ones because you do this more often. Is like if I walk into a hotel room, which I do often, if I look, there's inevitably something about that hotel room I'm going to be dissatisfied with, and there's something in that hotel room that I'm going to really like. And which of those am I going to choose? To back to your first piece, you talked about which of those am I going to put my attention on? And sometimes I have to very consciously keep putting my attention back to the positive one. But I think it does yield benefits.

Yeah, absolutely, And sometimes where it's easier for us to keep our attention on the positive things. And I love your analogy because it's so visual, it's so easy. We've all done it right, We've all walked into a place and seen the problems as opposed to seeing the things that can bring us happiness and joy.

Yeah, absolutely, And sometimes where it's easier for us to keep our attention on the positive things. And I love your analogy because it's so visual, it's so easy. We've all done it right, We've all walked into a place and seen the problems as opposed to seeing the things that can bring us happiness and joy.

But you know, and sometimes it's just a.

But you know, and sometimes it's just a.

Simple matter of how much sleep we've gotten, or if we're feeling burnt out from work, have we had practice keeping our mind in that positive state?

Simple matter of how much sleep we've gotten, or if we're feeling burnt out from work, have we had practice keeping our mind in that positive state?

Those things can matter greatly.

Those things can matter greatly.

Let's go deeper into the book with a couple of things. I want to talk about what you call the power lead. Can you tell us what that is?

Let's go deeper into the book with a couple of things. I want to talk about what you call the power lead. Can you tell us what that is?

The power lead is where you start off conversations or any other interaction you have with another person by saying something positive and meaningful. The reason I suggest the power lead is one of the first tools that we talk about in the book is because it is so transformational to start a conversation in a positive place as opposed to.

The power lead is where you start off conversations or any other interaction you have with another person by saying something positive and meaningful. The reason I suggest the power lead is one of the first tools that we talk about in the book is because it is so transformational to start a conversation in a positive place as opposed to.

A negative one.

A negative one.

I mean, we've all been in a meeting right where someone starts off negative and the whole thing only knows dives from there. Versus, if you can start off at a conversation when you're asked how are you by saying something positive and meaningful, or a meeting by listing gratitudes, delivering praise, or asking for people to contribute to a positive leading question, it completely changes the outcome. As a researcher. If I note even just the first few words of a conversation, I can have a high degree of likelihood of predicting the outcome of that conversation. You know, so mine this morning might have been if you asked me, hey, how are you? My power league could be Oh, I'm doing great, I had breakfast with my son this morning and he's being so cute. You know, just that simple, positive and meaningful piece of information encourages people to match in kind, and it changes the direction of the conversation. And it's not to say at any moment that we want.

I mean, we've all been in a meeting right where someone starts off negative and the whole thing only knows dives from there. Versus, if you can start off at a conversation when you're asked how are you by saying something positive and meaningful, or a meeting by listing gratitudes, delivering praise, or asking for people to contribute to a positive leading question, it completely changes the outcome. As a researcher. If I note even just the first few words of a conversation, I can have a high degree of likelihood of predicting the outcome of that conversation. You know, so mine this morning might have been if you asked me, hey, how are you? My power league could be Oh, I'm doing great, I had breakfast with my son this morning and he's being so cute. You know, just that simple, positive and meaningful piece of information encourages people to match in kind, and it changes the direction of the conversation. And it's not to say at any moment that we want.

To ignore the negative.

To ignore the negative.

If you have a real problem going on and you're talking to someone that you trust, it's okay to of course discuss those things right off the top of the conversation. But this is on the whole, on the average, what are you talking about. Are we just going, oh, I'm stressed, I'm tired, I'm exhausted and complaining, or are we sharing things that enrich other people's days and let.

If you have a real problem going on and you're talking to someone that you trust, it's okay to of course discuss those things right off the top of the conversation. But this is on the whole, on the average, what are you talking about. Are we just going, oh, I'm stressed, I'm tired, I'm exhausted and complaining, or are we sharing things that enrich other people's days and let.

Them have a window into our positive world.

Them have a window into our positive world.

In the book, you say that negative people are not bad people. Our brains can just get stuck. We can become really good at finding what's not working and letting everyone know. And then you go on to spend a fair amount of time talking about how to deal with negative people in our lives, and I think that's a topic that gets everybody's interest. So can you give a couple tips on working with the so called negative people in our lives? I like not calling them bad. I think that's a great start, But what else?

In the book, you say that negative people are not bad people. Our brains can just get stuck. We can become really good at finding what's not working and letting everyone know. And then you go on to spend a fair amount of time talking about how to deal with negative people in our lives, and I think that's a topic that gets everybody's interest. So can you give a couple tips on working with the so called negative people in our lives? I like not calling them bad. I think that's a great start, But what else?

Yeah, negative people, That's probably the single biggest question I get from people, because you know, they're thinking about at work, they're one negative person on their business team that's dragging everybody down. Or you know, maybe you come home from the office and you're coming home to see your family and you're so excited and about something going on, and maybe your spouse just kind of reigns on your parade. And you know, a lot of times, we really we care about these people. We want to help them, and so what's the best way to do it. First of all, I think the most important thing is to understand that it's not the most positive or negative person that wins the battle for culture at our companies or in our relationships around the dinner table. It's actually the person who's most expressive of their mindset. So what that means is if you're already positive and optimistic in general, when you are in the especially when you're in the presence of the negative person, the more that you can be without being annoying, expressive of your own positive mindset in a meaningful way. That actually can encourage those people to be more positive and it helps them see the things that are you know, are good in the world. But the other thing is, if that person is continually being negative and you have tried and tried to help them see the light or look at the world in a different way, it's okay to take some distance from them. In the book, I talk about this idea of taking a strategic retreat, which is to you know, take some time to take some distance from them and fortify your own positive resources by doing those positive habits that we often talk about, your gratitudes, exercising, journaling, about meaningful moments, seeing friends that bring you up instead of bringing you down. And when you feel like you're in a good place and you can re engage with them, but have a plan. Don't just go in there, right, don't just call up your in law who you typically don't get along with on the phone.

Yeah, negative people, That's probably the single biggest question I get from people, because you know, they're thinking about at work, they're one negative person on their business team that's dragging everybody down. Or you know, maybe you come home from the office and you're coming home to see your family and you're so excited and about something going on, and maybe your spouse just kind of reigns on your parade. And you know, a lot of times, we really we care about these people. We want to help them, and so what's the best way to do it. First of all, I think the most important thing is to understand that it's not the most positive or negative person that wins the battle for culture at our companies or in our relationships around the dinner table. It's actually the person who's most expressive of their mindset. So what that means is if you're already positive and optimistic in general, when you are in the especially when you're in the presence of the negative person, the more that you can be without being annoying, expressive of your own positive mindset in a meaningful way. That actually can encourage those people to be more positive and it helps them see the things that are you know, are good in the world. But the other thing is, if that person is continually being negative and you have tried and tried to help them see the light or look at the world in a different way, it's okay to take some distance from them. In the book, I talk about this idea of taking a strategic retreat, which is to you know, take some time to take some distance from them and fortify your own positive resources by doing those positive habits that we often talk about, your gratitudes, exercising, journaling, about meaningful moments, seeing friends that bring you up instead of bringing you down. And when you feel like you're in a good place and you can re engage with them, but have a plan. Don't just go in there, right, don't just call up your in law who you typically don't get along with on the phone.

Instead, have a plan.

Instead, have a plan.

What could the common conversation look like, How could it be short and sweet? What could you say and get basically a two minute drill down in place so that when you do have that next encounter with them, there's at least some sort of framework that can help you have a positive, short and sweet experience with them. The key is not to, you know, change them entirely and change their entire outlook and that conversation, is just to have a good experience, which then hopefully will create a trajectory of positive experiences with them over time and helps you rewrite the social script that exists between you.

What could the common conversation look like, How could it be short and sweet? What could you say and get basically a two minute drill down in place so that when you do have that next encounter with them, there's at least some sort of framework that can help you have a positive, short and sweet experience with them. The key is not to, you know, change them entirely and change their entire outlook and that conversation, is just to have a good experience, which then hopefully will create a trajectory of positive experiences with them over time and helps you rewrite the social script that exists between you.

Yeah, I was thinking about your book earlier. Today. I had to have a difficult, somewhat difficult meeting with somebody and they came in already mad about something else that was happening, and I was like, after reading your book, you know, I might want to take a strategic retreat here. Unfortunately I needed to have the conversation then, but I was able to really think about making sure he was de escalated before I went into what I was going to talk about.

Yeah, I was thinking about your book earlier. Today. I had to have a difficult, somewhat difficult meeting with somebody and they came in already mad about something else that was happening, and I was like, after reading your book, you know, I might want to take a strategic retreat here. Unfortunately I needed to have the conversation then, but I was able to really think about making sure he was de escalated before I went into what I was going to talk about.

That approach is so enlightened because what you're doing is you're getting an emotional read on the other person, and then you're able to address whatever's happening there before you move on to something else. I think that's that really takes into account sort of where.

That approach is so enlightened because what you're doing is you're getting an emotional read on the other person, and then you're able to address whatever's happening there before you move on to something else. I think that's that really takes into account sort of where.

They're at, but also allows.

They're at, but also allows.

You to move the conversation or the experience into a more positive place.

You to move the conversation or the experience into a more positive place.

Yep. I think an older version of myself would have recognized that he was upset and then just chosen to skip the conversation. So I was happy to have persevered. One of the things I really liked that you talk about was you say, we need to move our brain past its natural focus on what we need to improve to what is already working. We accelerate towards growth when we have perceived progress, not when we feel we still have a long way to go.

Yep. I think an older version of myself would have recognized that he was upset and then just chosen to skip the conversation. So I was happy to have persevered. One of the things I really liked that you talk about was you say, we need to move our brain past its natural focus on what we need to improve to what is already working. We accelerate towards growth when we have perceived progress, not when we feel we still have a long way to go.

I think that common wisdom suggests that in order to create great change in the world, we need to focus on all that's broken and figure out how we're going to fix it and then and that will finally leave us time and resources to then.

I think that common wisdom suggests that in order to create great change in the world, we need to focus on all that's broken and figure out how we're going to fix it and then and that will finally leave us time and resources to then.

Make our lives great.

Make our lives great.

And what we're realizing now is the research shows you just really need to focus on the things that you can improve but or that are already working, and that'll actually fuel you so much more in the long run.

And what we're realizing now is the research shows you just really need to focus on the things that you can improve but or that are already working, and that'll actually fuel you so much more in the long run.

Yeah. I think that's in line with my experience of Negativity can be temporarily useful as a motivator, but positivity is a far better motivator and a much more long term sufficient one. Most of the big changes I've made in my life, there might have been something that kicked it off from a negativity perspective, but it was me focusing on how well I was doing as I was doing it that really gave it the energy to keep going.

Yeah. I think that's in line with my experience of Negativity can be temporarily useful as a motivator, but positivity is a far better motivator and a much more long term sufficient one. Most of the big changes I've made in my life, there might have been something that kicked it off from a negativity perspective, but it was me focusing on how well I was doing as I was doing it that really gave it the energy to keep going.

When our brain focuses on progress and you know basically the successes we've had and the solutions that we're going to use to move forward, that's fuel for the brain follow up study that I did with Arianna Huffington and Sean We found that if you merely talk about problems versus you talk about problems and potential or actual solutions, you change other people's brains. In particular, when you pair a discussion of solutions with problems, you actually can improve other people's creative problem solving on subsequent unrelated tasks by twenty percent. So you're making the basically twenty percent smarter, and you're improving their mood as significantly as well. So you know what that means is that we can talk about the negative. We just have to talk about it in a different way, and how important it is to focus on how far we've come. You know, that's one problem that I'm finding with the news right now is that oftentimes you can walk away from the news if you read too many negative stories with this belief that the world is just falling apart. Right It's as if the apocalypse is coming, or it's here or whatever. But when you look at the stats, there's a completely different picture. According to Harvard researcher Stephen Pinker, we are living in the safest times in human history when you look at war deaths, or number of deaths from infectious diseases, and all kinds of other key indicators of quality of life overall. So if we think that the world is falling apart, well, why would we want to apply our behavior and try to make things better? Versus we see, Hey, yes, there's lots of things that are left to do to fix this world, to make it a better place. But look how far we've come. That second viewpoint is much more fueling.

When our brain focuses on progress and you know basically the successes we've had and the solutions that we're going to use to move forward, that's fuel for the brain follow up study that I did with Arianna Huffington and Sean We found that if you merely talk about problems versus you talk about problems and potential or actual solutions, you change other people's brains. In particular, when you pair a discussion of solutions with problems, you actually can improve other people's creative problem solving on subsequent unrelated tasks by twenty percent. So you're making the basically twenty percent smarter, and you're improving their mood as significantly as well. So you know what that means is that we can talk about the negative. We just have to talk about it in a different way, and how important it is to focus on how far we've come. You know, that's one problem that I'm finding with the news right now is that oftentimes you can walk away from the news if you read too many negative stories with this belief that the world is just falling apart. Right It's as if the apocalypse is coming, or it's here or whatever. But when you look at the stats, there's a completely different picture. According to Harvard researcher Stephen Pinker, we are living in the safest times in human history when you look at war deaths, or number of deaths from infectious diseases, and all kinds of other key indicators of quality of life overall. So if we think that the world is falling apart, well, why would we want to apply our behavior and try to make things better? Versus we see, Hey, yes, there's lots of things that are left to do to fix this world, to make it a better place. But look how far we've come. That second viewpoint is much more fueling.

Amen, I couldn't agree more. I do think that it's easy to see things as falling apart. You know, we do things two steps forward, one step back, and if you're in the middle of that one step back, it feels very painful. But if you take a broader time perspective, from my perspective, and I've read Stephen Pinker's work, it's getting better to be a person than it was in the past.

Amen, I couldn't agree more. I do think that it's easy to see things as falling apart. You know, we do things two steps forward, one step back, and if you're in the middle of that one step back, it feels very painful. But if you take a broader time perspective, from my perspective, and I've read Stephen Pinker's work, it's getting better to be a person than it was in the past.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I know, you know, especially more recently with all the you know, all the news that being very, very negative.

And I know, you know, especially more recently with all the you know, all the news that being very, very negative.

It's just it's so important to remember that as an anchor point to help us.

It's just it's so important to remember that as an anchor point to help us.

Yeah. I love the little idea from Voltaire's book about tending your own garden. I find that to be such a powerful thing to go back to when the negativity out in the world feels overwhelming, to sort of stake out my little area and say, well, not in here.

Yeah. I love the little idea from Voltaire's book about tending your own garden. I find that to be such a powerful thing to go back to when the negativity out in the world feels overwhelming, to sort of stake out my little area and say, well, not in here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I met this incredible woman who I talk about in the book. Her name's Sharon, and so we were developing a positive psychology program for one of the major big box stores. And you know, there's a one point five million associates, so you want to make sure to get it right before you roll out this program. So we went to pilot it and get feedback at a number of stores. We get to the store in Memphis and I gave our little spiel, and this woman, after the morning meeting comes up to us and says, oh, you're a happiness researcher. I'm the happiest woman in the world. You should study me. And so he said, okay, tell me your story, and so she said, well, you know I was I waited until later in life to get married because you know, I just didn't meet anyone until then. But I met this amazing man. And we've been married for about six months when my mother dies suddenly of health complications, and I was very close to her, and so she goes on to tell me that her husband was really stuck by her and was this beautiful support system all the way through the morning process. And so about six months after that, she's finally starting to just you know, sort of feel back to normal when he gets killed in a car crash. And so I'm looking at her and she must you know, I like, I can't hide a single emotion. It's always on my face. And so she saw that I was confused and didn't understand the story and how she could call herself the happiest woman in the world, and so she said, well, the reason I have the right to is because after morning my husband's loss. I got to a point where I said to myself, every morning, I have a choice of whether or not I can I'm going to choose happiness. I have that choice, and it's whether it's up to me whether or not I exercise it. And what she did was she consciously decided that every day she was going to choose to be happy. And moreover, when she came into work, she chose to be very open about the fact that she had gone through that struggle, but she was choosing to be happy. At that point, I talked to her coworkers and they said that she was the most positive person that they knew by the way her power lead was great because she would just say, it's a great day, how are you doing right? She doesn't even let you get in there and mess it up. Yeah, she was just absolutely incredible. But she just she reminded me that no matter what's going on in the external world, we have that choice internally, and the question is what do we decide to do with our finite lifetime and our finite resources, and then what kind of impact do we want to have on the people around us?

I met this incredible woman who I talk about in the book. Her name's Sharon, and so we were developing a positive psychology program for one of the major big box stores. And you know, there's a one point five million associates, so you want to make sure to get it right before you roll out this program. So we went to pilot it and get feedback at a number of stores. We get to the store in Memphis and I gave our little spiel, and this woman, after the morning meeting comes up to us and says, oh, you're a happiness researcher. I'm the happiest woman in the world. You should study me. And so he said, okay, tell me your story, and so she said, well, you know I was I waited until later in life to get married because you know, I just didn't meet anyone until then. But I met this amazing man. And we've been married for about six months when my mother dies suddenly of health complications, and I was very close to her, and so she goes on to tell me that her husband was really stuck by her and was this beautiful support system all the way through the morning process. And so about six months after that, she's finally starting to just you know, sort of feel back to normal when he gets killed in a car crash. And so I'm looking at her and she must you know, I like, I can't hide a single emotion. It's always on my face. And so she saw that I was confused and didn't understand the story and how she could call herself the happiest woman in the world, and so she said, well, the reason I have the right to is because after morning my husband's loss. I got to a point where I said to myself, every morning, I have a choice of whether or not I can I'm going to choose happiness. I have that choice, and it's whether it's up to me whether or not I exercise it. And what she did was she consciously decided that every day she was going to choose to be happy. And moreover, when she came into work, she chose to be very open about the fact that she had gone through that struggle, but she was choosing to be happy. At that point, I talked to her coworkers and they said that she was the most positive person that they knew by the way her power lead was great because she would just say, it's a great day, how are you doing right? She doesn't even let you get in there and mess it up. Yeah, she was just absolutely incredible. But she just she reminded me that no matter what's going on in the external world, we have that choice internally, and the question is what do we decide to do with our finite lifetime and our finite resources, and then what kind of impact do we want to have on the people around us?

When you say choosing to be happy, I have a little bit of an internal reaction to that as somebody who has suffered from depression. And I know a lot of listeners also have that feeling. And I don't think that's exactly what we're saying, because I don't think you can necessarily, at least to me, it doesn't feel like I can flip on a happy switch, but I can flip on a switch of how I want to view the world and what stories I want to give power and energy to.

When you say choosing to be happy, I have a little bit of an internal reaction to that as somebody who has suffered from depression. And I know a lot of listeners also have that feeling. And I don't think that's exactly what we're saying, because I don't think you can necessarily, at least to me, it doesn't feel like I can flip on a happy switch, but I can flip on a switch of how I want to view the world and what stories I want to give power and energy to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, And I completely understand as well, because when I was in my mid twenties, I suffered a year long bout with depression. And I know depression is different for everybody. For me, I was just I think I was isolated and I was so excited the year before I got this awesome job in London, I was moving overseas. It was like top of the world, right, And then I think because I was working from home, I knew no one, I had no social life, and I was isolated and I'm a very extroverted person in many ways, the whole combination didn't jibe. But and so I know I understand what it's you can't in those moments oftentimes, you know, say, oh, I'm all of a sudden, I'm just happy.

Absolutely, And I completely understand as well, because when I was in my mid twenties, I suffered a year long bout with depression. And I know depression is different for everybody. For me, I was just I think I was isolated and I was so excited the year before I got this awesome job in London, I was moving overseas. It was like top of the world, right, And then I think because I was working from home, I knew no one, I had no social life, and I was isolated and I'm a very extroverted person in many ways, the whole combination didn't jibe. But and so I know I understand what it's you can't in those moments oftentimes, you know, say, oh, I'm all of a sudden, I'm just happy.

I just flipped a switch.

I just flipped a switch.

But I think what we can do is we can in the midst of those moments, we can still maintain an optimistic mindset that things will get better. We can say, you know, I know that I have sixteen waking hours, and with one of them, I'm going to go to the gym and get some exercise because I know that it can make a difference. You know, there have been studies that show that. Or I'm going to connect with friends because you know. For instance, one piece of research that I hold close to my heart is the greatest predictor of long term levels of happiness that we have in the research is our levels of social support. You don't have to have a ton of friends, but just a handful of meaningful relationships. And if we can stay connected to other people, then that can help buffer us against depression and just low mood. So if we know that, then we say, okay, well, I'm going to consciously try to schedule some time with friends to go for a walk or to have a meaningful conversation. Those small habit changes for me, those that's what walked me out of depression. And that's what that's been beneficial for, you know, obviously thousands of people. So it's but it's maintaining I think that hope and optimism in the midst of that, and I think that can be in many many respects.

But I think what we can do is we can in the midst of those moments, we can still maintain an optimistic mindset that things will get better. We can say, you know, I know that I have sixteen waking hours, and with one of them, I'm going to go to the gym and get some exercise because I know that it can make a difference. You know, there have been studies that show that. Or I'm going to connect with friends because you know. For instance, one piece of research that I hold close to my heart is the greatest predictor of long term levels of happiness that we have in the research is our levels of social support. You don't have to have a ton of friends, but just a handful of meaningful relationships. And if we can stay connected to other people, then that can help buffer us against depression and just low mood. So if we know that, then we say, okay, well, I'm going to consciously try to schedule some time with friends to go for a walk or to have a meaningful conversation. Those small habit changes for me, those that's what walked me out of depression. And that's what that's been beneficial for, you know, obviously thousands of people. So it's but it's maintaining I think that hope and optimism in the midst of that, and I think that can be in many many respects.

That can be a choice.

That can be a choice.

I don't know that I think we have a lot of control over what emotion we feel, in particular when we're particularly in depression. But I do think that we have some degree of control over our thoughts and our behavior, and I think those can act as levers, at least they have for me. By working on my thinking and my behavior, I'm able to sort of, you know, using a lever, adjust my emotions. You know, I can't do it directly, but I have tools that can help.

I don't know that I think we have a lot of control over what emotion we feel, in particular when we're particularly in depression. But I do think that we have some degree of control over our thoughts and our behavior, and I think those can act as levers, at least they have for me. By working on my thinking and my behavior, I'm able to sort of, you know, using a lever, adjust my emotions. You know, I can't do it directly, but I have tools that can help.

Yeah, And it's so incredible to see, you know, just in my own personal life, how how quickly our brain can forget how good some of these positive behaviors can be for our mood, for.

Yeah, And it's so incredible to see, you know, just in my own personal life, how how quickly our brain can forget how good some of these positive behaviors can be for our mood, for.

How we feel. You know, I have a low mood.

How we feel. You know, I have a low mood.

I'll say, it's exactly the time when I don't want to go exercise, right, But even if I just put on my sneakers and I go out for a ten or fifteen minute walk outside right and nothink strenuous. Oh my gosh, all of a sudden, I'm feeling better and I forgot. You know, It's like I forgot that that would actually be good. The brain is adaptive for good and for bad. But you know one other study that I often talk about in relation to this, just because I think this is so powerful and this is something that you don't hear about on the news. There was a study done with one of the major antidepressants and looked at it in comparison to exercise as a treatment for mild depression. And what they found was that for so that what they did in the studies, they gave one group antidepressants, another group they had them exercise for thirty minutes a day, three to five times a week, and then the other group they did both. So in general, all three groups had sort of equal levels of moving out of the depressive state. But what was really remarkable was the researchers followed them for two years and the group that had exercised were the ones that had a thirty nine percent lower relapse rate than the folks that had either that had taken antidepressants. So this is not a repudiation of antipressants. I think that they serve a very valid and important purpose in our society in many respects. If that's what your doctor feels, great, But what I think is what this is indicative of is that when you do a habit that reminds your brain that your behavior matters, like getting out the door every day and exercising, all of a sudden, you've got that in your toolkit and you can go back to it if you need, and that can help protect you for experiences later on.