Hi, everybody, it's Jinny. You've probably heard me with Eric on some episodes of The One You Feed. I have a question for you. Are you your own worst critic? I mean, when you pay attention to how you talk to yourself, is it just kind of mean? And do you often feel beat down and just heavy inside? If so, I truly understand the struggle. I used to believe that relating to myself this way was what kept me performing at any acceptable level, and without it, I thought I'd drift off into the deep end and become a failure in pretty much every aspect.

Hi, everybody, it's Jinny. You've probably heard me with Eric on some episodes of The One You Feed. I have a question for you. Are you your own worst critic? I mean, when you pay attention to how you talk to yourself, is it just kind of mean? And do you often feel beat down and just heavy inside? If so, I truly understand the struggle. I used to believe that relating to myself this way was what kept me performing at any acceptable level, and without it, I thought I'd drift off into the deep end and become a failure in pretty much every aspect.

Of my life.

Of my life.

But it turns out that's actually one of the inner critics worst lies that it helps you. I mean maybe short term you get a push and do well, but long term it's corrosive and it actually keeps you from living to your potential. I've created a free three part video series that teaches you how to get to the other side of the inner critic like I have, and you can grab it today. Just head to oneyufeed dot net slash Inner Critic. I'm sharing this with you as not only an inner critic survivor, but also a certified mindfulness teacher, and you can learn to relate to yourself differently, living with an inner lightness and not a sense of being at battle with yourself, and life is so much better when you're a friend to yourself. I promise, So go to one youfeed dot net slash inner Critic for my free mini course see you in the videos.

But it turns out that's actually one of the inner critics worst lies that it helps you. I mean maybe short term you get a push and do well, but long term it's corrosive and it actually keeps you from living to your potential. I've created a free three part video series that teaches you how to get to the other side of the inner critic like I have, and you can grab it today. Just head to oneyufeed dot net slash Inner Critic. I'm sharing this with you as not only an inner critic survivor, but also a certified mindfulness teacher, and you can learn to relate to yourself differently, living with an inner lightness and not a sense of being at battle with yourself, and life is so much better when you're a friend to yourself. I promise, So go to one youfeed dot net slash inner Critic for my free mini course see you in the videos.

We can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a disease, and that's a whole nother discussion to have. But it's really really different for different people. How people get into this struggle, how they experience it, and how they ultimately can get out of it.

We can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a disease, and that's a whole nother discussion to have. But it's really really different for different people. How people get into this struggle, how they experience it, and how they ultimately can get out of it.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and damp and our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor Jeff Foot, a psychologist and nationally recognized clinical research scientist with over thirty years of experience utilizing evidence based treatment approaches for the treatment of substance use issues and post traumatic stress. He's the co founder of the Center for Motivation and Change outpatient programs in New York City, Long Island, Washington, d C. And San Diego, as well as the residential program CMC Berkshire in Western Massachusetts. Jeff is a member of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies and the American Association of Addiction Psychiatrists. Today, Eric, Jenny, and Jeff discuss his books Beyond Addiction and his Beyond Addiction workbook.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and damp and our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor Jeff Foot, a psychologist and nationally recognized clinical research scientist with over thirty years of experience utilizing evidence based treatment approaches for the treatment of substance use issues and post traumatic stress. He's the co founder of the Center for Motivation and Change outpatient programs in New York City, Long Island, Washington, d C. And San Diego, as well as the residential program CMC Berkshire in Western Massachusetts. Jeff is a member of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies and the American Association of Addiction Psychiatrists. Today, Eric, Jenny, and Jeff discuss his books Beyond Addiction and his Beyond Addiction workbook.

Hi Jeff, Welcome to the show.

Hi Jeff, Welcome to the show.

Hi. Nice to see you guys.

Hi. Nice to see you guys.

Hi Jenny, Welcome to the show.

Hi Jenny, Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Hey, guys, it's so good to be here with you.

Thank you. Hey, guys, it's so good to be here with you.

I'm really excited to talk with you, Jeff. I think we both are. You've done some really interesting work in a couple of books now. One is called Beyond Addiction and The newest one is called Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family and Friends, Evidence based skills to help a loved one make positive change. And I have to say, as somebody who has been in recovery for the vast majority of my adult life, I get asked so many times by family members and friends and partners of addicts, what do I do? What do I do? And there's been a response for a long time which was, well, try going to alan On right like, it's free, it's there, it's something. But your book was one of the first things I'd seen that really went into depth about ways that you can have a positive impact on the person and ways that go beyond simply detaching with love but actually not having to completely detach and being loving and be motivational and help lead them perhaps to change. And so that's why I'm so excited that we're going to get to talk about this.

I'm really excited to talk with you, Jeff. I think we both are. You've done some really interesting work in a couple of books now. One is called Beyond Addiction and The newest one is called Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family and Friends, Evidence based skills to help a loved one make positive change. And I have to say, as somebody who has been in recovery for the vast majority of my adult life, I get asked so many times by family members and friends and partners of addicts, what do I do? What do I do? And there's been a response for a long time which was, well, try going to alan On right like, it's free, it's there, it's something. But your book was one of the first things I'd seen that really went into depth about ways that you can have a positive impact on the person and ways that go beyond simply detaching with love but actually not having to completely detach and being loving and be motivational and help lead them perhaps to change. And so that's why I'm so excited that we're going to get to talk about this.

Yeah. Great, Yeah, I think that's a good read. There's been, you know, as you said, the traditional pathways that people are recommended to, and when families run into these issues, it's heartbreaking, heartrending, terrifying, and when you're in the role of family member trying to help or frankly, any role of trying to help, whether it's a friend, it's a therapist, there's a lot going on there that's difficult, and there are a lot of tools that we now know are really useful, that are not just setting limits and detaching, And again, those can be the thing to do at any given moment. We're not. So just to be able to have a larger toolkit and a greater understanding and a greater sense of compassion in this whole arena, I think is a pretty powerful thing. So that's what we've been trying to work at.

Yeah. Great, Yeah, I think that's a good read. There's been, you know, as you said, the traditional pathways that people are recommended to, and when families run into these issues, it's heartbreaking, heartrending, terrifying, and when you're in the role of family member trying to help or frankly, any role of trying to help, whether it's a friend, it's a therapist, there's a lot going on there that's difficult, and there are a lot of tools that we now know are really useful, that are not just setting limits and detaching, And again, those can be the thing to do at any given moment. We're not. So just to be able to have a larger toolkit and a greater understanding and a greater sense of compassion in this whole arena, I think is a pretty powerful thing. So that's what we've been trying to work at.

Indeed, well, why don't we start like we always do with the parable giny. I'll let you take it if you like, I like.

Indeed, well, why don't we start like we always do with the parable giny. I'll let you take it if you like, I like.

I would like to, all right, So it goes like this. A grandparent was talking with their grandchild and they said, in life, there are two wolves inside of us who are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and one is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents said the one you feed. So I'd love to know how that parable applies to you in your life and also in the work that you do.

I would like to, all right, So it goes like this. A grandparent was talking with their grandchild and they said, in life, there are two wolves inside of us who are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and one is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents said the one you feed. So I'd love to know how that parable applies to you in your life and also in the work that you do.

I've used that parable before myself. I think it's a lovely narrative to walk through with folks, especially because that internal battle is really intense for people. I think I've used it more in the context of I'm a clinical psychologist, so I do a lot of direct work with people struggling with substances and lots of other stuff. And there you are, there's the battle right in front of you internally with somebody. You know, I'm trying to take one path and keep getting pulled back to the other path and feeling really bad about that and beating themselves up and so forth. It's a pretty extreme struggle, and it's funny. I have. My favorite painting of all time is by this guy, Frank Frizetta, who used to like illustrate dime magazines back in the thirties and forties, of Conan the Barbarian, and they're the most stunningly beautiful oil paintings you've ever seen, and they're usually around monstrous battles, and one of them is this horrendous looking monster on top of this other horrendous looking warrior. And what I've always taken from that I show it to clients actually fairly often, and as an illustration of this is one, don't underestimate the battle because it's ferocious. And two it's a little ambiguous as to who you want to win here, because both of these guys are pretty horrendously struggling and terrifying. Reminds me of the parable a little bit. It's like, it's not necessarily clear always which path I'm going to take, and there are difficulties on both paths. Actually, I've always appreciated the idea of, like, how do we learn to have an awareness of the path that we want more and to be more intentional about that path. And I think that's one way we've talked about it with people in this kind of a struggle. I will say that over the last number of years, and this is related to the work that we're doing now with families and helpers in this approach that we've called the Invitation to Change, that there are some really important elements around this whole idea of good and bad that are really powerful to sort of take account of and if I had to try to put it succinctly as related to that parable, the idea of like there's a good side and a bad side, and we've got to stay with a good side can also be just a terrible setup for people, sort of like can I hit the ejector seat and make all the bad stuff go away? And the answer is no, you can't. You can't eject the difficult parts of yourself. You can't eject the difficult parts of life that are going to come around the corner tomorrow. And can we learn to think about those two sides differently and relate to them differently. And in the invitation to change, there's one of the concepts we talk about is willingness, So as it applies to a helper. I'm trying to help my son, you know, I'm so terrified, and I'm trying to get him to do the right thing, and I'm, you know, the impulse to control that situation, the impulse to make the bad stuff go away. I'm going to send them to rehab and then they'll fix him and then it'll be good. You know, I'll send in the wilderness camp and that'll get rid of this problem. Is that pull to temporarily make bad stuff, so to speak, go away, as opposed to inviting it in and going there's really hard stuff here, there's really good stuff. Can we live with both? You know, the terrible chatter in your head that tells you what a horrible human being you are all the time? Like, we can't eradicate that? Can we put it in the passenger seat and just welcome it in the car And to go into another parable, another metaphor, and say, we're not going to kick you out of the car. We know you want to chat a lot. We just don't really want you grabbing the steering wheel all the time anymore. But you're part of us, you know. And the quote unquote bad stuff, it's like, it's not so bad, and it's part of who I am, and it's part of who I've become in my life and all the difficult, painful things I've struggled with, And can we accept those parts as opposed to being a choice between one or the other. So I hope that makes sense in terms of that response to the parable. But I've started to think about it that way more over the last bunch of years, because again, that pull to go for the good and put away the bad is not so helpful, I think for folks, you know. Anyway, that's my long winded response to the parable.

I've used that parable before myself. I think it's a lovely narrative to walk through with folks, especially because that internal battle is really intense for people. I think I've used it more in the context of I'm a clinical psychologist, so I do a lot of direct work with people struggling with substances and lots of other stuff. And there you are, there's the battle right in front of you internally with somebody. You know, I'm trying to take one path and keep getting pulled back to the other path and feeling really bad about that and beating themselves up and so forth. It's a pretty extreme struggle, and it's funny. I have. My favorite painting of all time is by this guy, Frank Frizetta, who used to like illustrate dime magazines back in the thirties and forties, of Conan the Barbarian, and they're the most stunningly beautiful oil paintings you've ever seen, and they're usually around monstrous battles, and one of them is this horrendous looking monster on top of this other horrendous looking warrior. And what I've always taken from that I show it to clients actually fairly often, and as an illustration of this is one, don't underestimate the battle because it's ferocious. And two it's a little ambiguous as to who you want to win here, because both of these guys are pretty horrendously struggling and terrifying. Reminds me of the parable a little bit. It's like, it's not necessarily clear always which path I'm going to take, and there are difficulties on both paths. Actually, I've always appreciated the idea of, like, how do we learn to have an awareness of the path that we want more and to be more intentional about that path. And I think that's one way we've talked about it with people in this kind of a struggle. I will say that over the last number of years, and this is related to the work that we're doing now with families and helpers in this approach that we've called the Invitation to Change, that there are some really important elements around this whole idea of good and bad that are really powerful to sort of take account of and if I had to try to put it succinctly as related to that parable, the idea of like there's a good side and a bad side, and we've got to stay with a good side can also be just a terrible setup for people, sort of like can I hit the ejector seat and make all the bad stuff go away? And the answer is no, you can't. You can't eject the difficult parts of yourself. You can't eject the difficult parts of life that are going to come around the corner tomorrow. And can we learn to think about those two sides differently and relate to them differently. And in the invitation to change, there's one of the concepts we talk about is willingness, So as it applies to a helper. I'm trying to help my son, you know, I'm so terrified, and I'm trying to get him to do the right thing, and I'm, you know, the impulse to control that situation, the impulse to make the bad stuff go away. I'm going to send them to rehab and then they'll fix him and then it'll be good. You know, I'll send in the wilderness camp and that'll get rid of this problem. Is that pull to temporarily make bad stuff, so to speak, go away, as opposed to inviting it in and going there's really hard stuff here, there's really good stuff. Can we live with both? You know, the terrible chatter in your head that tells you what a horrible human being you are all the time? Like, we can't eradicate that? Can we put it in the passenger seat and just welcome it in the car And to go into another parable, another metaphor, and say, we're not going to kick you out of the car. We know you want to chat a lot. We just don't really want you grabbing the steering wheel all the time anymore. But you're part of us, you know. And the quote unquote bad stuff, it's like, it's not so bad, and it's part of who I am, and it's part of who I've become in my life and all the difficult, painful things I've struggled with, And can we accept those parts as opposed to being a choice between one or the other. So I hope that makes sense in terms of that response to the parable. But I've started to think about it that way more over the last bunch of years, because again, that pull to go for the good and put away the bad is not so helpful, I think for folks, you know. Anyway, that's my long winded response to the parable.

It's a wonderful response. You're not alone. I mean, we have grown to think of our inner world that way too, in that it's not vanished the bad and only focus on the quote unquote good. That it's about integration, it's about holding it all, it's about relating to it wisely and skillfully and doing healing work. And so I'm really glad that that's your response because it brings us to a point where we can sort of have a more integrated interpretation of things. But I agree with you that parable does tend to point us towards being maybe intentional with the choices we make so that we're headed down a path. And I just think about the role of community when, as you mentioned, sort of discerning what path we want to go down, and that the role of community can be supportive in us when we're trying to discern that, and that family and friends can be so when it's the closest community that people have. And it's wonderful that you start your the actual book that you wrote around understanding that people don't use substances in a vacuum, right, Family and friends often make the critical difference in someone's recovery, and I'd love to know. I mean, it's a wonderful thing to hear, because so often it's a powerless feeling to be a loved one of a person with abuse and feel like you can't fix them. So could you sort of take us into the role that family and friends can make in a skillful way?

It's a wonderful response. You're not alone. I mean, we have grown to think of our inner world that way too, in that it's not vanished the bad and only focus on the quote unquote good. That it's about integration, it's about holding it all, it's about relating to it wisely and skillfully and doing healing work. And so I'm really glad that that's your response because it brings us to a point where we can sort of have a more integrated interpretation of things. But I agree with you that parable does tend to point us towards being maybe intentional with the choices we make so that we're headed down a path. And I just think about the role of community when, as you mentioned, sort of discerning what path we want to go down, and that the role of community can be supportive in us when we're trying to discern that, and that family and friends can be so when it's the closest community that people have. And it's wonderful that you start your the actual book that you wrote around understanding that people don't use substances in a vacuum, right, Family and friends often make the critical difference in someone's recovery, and I'd love to know. I mean, it's a wonderful thing to hear, because so often it's a powerless feeling to be a loved one of a person with abuse and feel like you can't fix them. So could you sort of take us into the role that family and friends can make in a skillful way?

Sure? Yeah, And I think you guys mentioned that sort of that sense of there can be a more traditional set of ideas about this that have words like detach associated with it, even if we tag on detached with love, which kind of softens it up a little bit. Still, this idea that to be helpful you need to step back, and again, there are important things in there that not to be ignored, like I may need to step back because my limits have been breached and I'm burned out and I can't do it, and so forth. That's all true for certain people certain times. But to the point you just made about making sense of the behavior one of the foundational things we do with helpers. And again I'll broaden that from family to lots of people, including therapists and mental health professionals and so forth, who struggle with this idea also, but especially within a family, the idea that this is now entered into our world, this meaning Wow, I just realized my fifteen year old is smoke in a bunch of pot and he got kicked out of school. Or I just realized my husband has been drinking a ton and he's hiding and I didn't realize that's why he goes to sleep early every night. And I just realized whoever is using quote unquote hard drugs? And I'm horrified. I've never heard of such a thing, And what's wrong with them? You know, nobody's trained in this. You know, they don't send families to school to learn how to deal with substitute issues or compulsive behaviors. And it just occupies this place in our culture that's really stigmatized and really looked down upon. And really, what's the other word othered? You know that people use that like you're outside of the norm, you're outside of the good circle. You're representing something scary, something we don't understand. You're doing irrational things, you're sort of breaching the social contract here where we're supposed to be, you know, together and honest and open with each other, and now you're doing a bunch of weird stuff that's not that, and some of it's just weird, and some of it's really harmful, and some of it's really scary. So the natural response to that is to be scared or nervous or anxious or mad or want to make it stop. And one of the things we start with with people is to try to help them put it in a different context and spend a lot of time with this first idea in the Invitation to change that we describe as behaviors make sense, which is walking through a bunch of common desires for us human beings. I'd like to sleep better, and I'd like to feel part of and I'd like to want to get out of bed in the morning. And i'd like to be able to focus better, and I'd like to lose weight, and I'd like to be funny, and i'd like you know, there's a long list of things that we go through, and we say, you know, is anybody here not want some of these things, or anybody think these things are weird or scared or you know, immoral it's like, of course not, you know, and then we say, well, so, we actually have the magic formula for many of these things. And it's called alcohol, or it's called heroin, or it's called crack or and you know what, it really works and it works incredibly quickly, and it's really reliable, and I can just get it on my own and I don't have to worry about other people. And it's just a way to start to help people understand that the desire to use substances, we can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a disease, and that's a whole nother discussion to have. But it's really really different for different people, how people get into this struggle, how they experience it, and how they ultimately can get out of it. I can look around a room of ten people and clients in a group here in our rehab and there are ten very very different stories of when this started, why it started, what it means, what will be helpful to unlock that person and help them move forward in a more positive way for themselves. Really literally ten different stories. You know. I have TSD from being in combat, and I lost my wife last year and I'm mourning, and I haven't gotten over it. I don't know what to do. I am a sixteen year old and I'm just a knucklehead and I'm just hanging out with my friends and got out of control. And you know, like those are all really different things, and one definition doesn't help when we apply it. So if I, as a helper, can go, okay, what makes sense about this from the perspective of this person I'm trying to help? Why is my kid using Why is my husband drinking too much? Why does my dad abusing pain pills? And let me really sort of understand that and step into their shoes. It just changes the whole equation. It makes it a compassionate discussion. It makes it a compassionate feeling I want to help them, as opposed to feeling like why are you doing this to me? So it's just a starting sort of foundational point of this is human behavior. This is not a demon that's come into your loved one. Sometimes it looks demonic when it gets to be a really bad place, it's still not a demon. It's just a human being struggling in a more or less severe way, in more or less behaviorally disrupted ways, and you can understand it. Actually, it doesn't mean you like it, doesn't mean you accept it, doesn't mean it's cool with you, just means you can understand it, which really is such a shift for most people and just profoundly affects their ability to actually engage in a different way. And engaging in a different way is the beginning of a whole different trajectory forward in terms of helping and in terms of being helped.

Sure? Yeah, And I think you guys mentioned that sort of that sense of there can be a more traditional set of ideas about this that have words like detach associated with it, even if we tag on detached with love, which kind of softens it up a little bit. Still, this idea that to be helpful you need to step back, and again, there are important things in there that not to be ignored, like I may need to step back because my limits have been breached and I'm burned out and I can't do it, and so forth. That's all true for certain people certain times. But to the point you just made about making sense of the behavior one of the foundational things we do with helpers. And again I'll broaden that from family to lots of people, including therapists and mental health professionals and so forth, who struggle with this idea also, but especially within a family, the idea that this is now entered into our world, this meaning Wow, I just realized my fifteen year old is smoke in a bunch of pot and he got kicked out of school. Or I just realized my husband has been drinking a ton and he's hiding and I didn't realize that's why he goes to sleep early every night. And I just realized whoever is using quote unquote hard drugs? And I'm horrified. I've never heard of such a thing, And what's wrong with them? You know, nobody's trained in this. You know, they don't send families to school to learn how to deal with substitute issues or compulsive behaviors. And it just occupies this place in our culture that's really stigmatized and really looked down upon. And really, what's the other word othered? You know that people use that like you're outside of the norm, you're outside of the good circle. You're representing something scary, something we don't understand. You're doing irrational things, you're sort of breaching the social contract here where we're supposed to be, you know, together and honest and open with each other, and now you're doing a bunch of weird stuff that's not that, and some of it's just weird, and some of it's really harmful, and some of it's really scary. So the natural response to that is to be scared or nervous or anxious or mad or want to make it stop. And one of the things we start with with people is to try to help them put it in a different context and spend a lot of time with this first idea in the Invitation to change that we describe as behaviors make sense, which is walking through a bunch of common desires for us human beings. I'd like to sleep better, and I'd like to feel part of and I'd like to want to get out of bed in the morning. And i'd like to be able to focus better, and I'd like to lose weight, and I'd like to be funny, and i'd like you know, there's a long list of things that we go through, and we say, you know, is anybody here not want some of these things, or anybody think these things are weird or scared or you know, immoral it's like, of course not, you know, and then we say, well, so, we actually have the magic formula for many of these things. And it's called alcohol, or it's called heroin, or it's called crack or and you know what, it really works and it works incredibly quickly, and it's really reliable, and I can just get it on my own and I don't have to worry about other people. And it's just a way to start to help people understand that the desire to use substances, we can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a disease, and that's a whole nother discussion to have. But it's really really different for different people, how people get into this struggle, how they experience it, and how they ultimately can get out of it. I can look around a room of ten people and clients in a group here in our rehab and there are ten very very different stories of when this started, why it started, what it means, what will be helpful to unlock that person and help them move forward in a more positive way for themselves. Really literally ten different stories. You know. I have TSD from being in combat, and I lost my wife last year and I'm mourning, and I haven't gotten over it. I don't know what to do. I am a sixteen year old and I'm just a knucklehead and I'm just hanging out with my friends and got out of control. And you know, like those are all really different things, and one definition doesn't help when we apply it. So if I, as a helper, can go, okay, what makes sense about this from the perspective of this person I'm trying to help? Why is my kid using Why is my husband drinking too much? Why does my dad abusing pain pills? And let me really sort of understand that and step into their shoes. It just changes the whole equation. It makes it a compassionate discussion. It makes it a compassionate feeling I want to help them, as opposed to feeling like why are you doing this to me? So it's just a starting sort of foundational point of this is human behavior. This is not a demon that's come into your loved one. Sometimes it looks demonic when it gets to be a really bad place, it's still not a demon. It's just a human being struggling in a more or less severe way, in more or less behaviorally disrupted ways, and you can understand it. Actually, it doesn't mean you like it, doesn't mean you accept it, doesn't mean it's cool with you, just means you can understand it, which really is such a shift for most people and just profoundly affects their ability to actually engage in a different way. And engaging in a different way is the beginning of a whole different trajectory forward in terms of helping and in terms of being helped.

That all makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I bet sober in twelve step programs and they saved my life twice, so I have great things to say about them. And one of the things that eventually caused me to sort of withdraw from that to a certain degree was this idea that is, alcoholics and addicts we were fundamentally different than other people who quote unquote, weren't you know? They were the ormies, We were the sick ones, right, And I just ceased at a certain point to believe that because to your point, there may be something different in my ability to use alcohol from your ability to use alcohol, right, And there may be something different in my level of coping skills versus your coping skills or his level of trauma versus my level of trauma, right, But the core human experience is, Okay, I'm trying to make the best out of my life the best way I can figure out with the tools and the skills that I have, and for some of us, me my way of doing that turned out to ultimately be very destructive for me. But the underlying situation, which was I don't want to hurt so bad, right, is a noble question? Is not that different than say, the parent who doesn't want to hurt so bad because their child is using right. And so to me that commonality seeing like, okay, this is just the human response to a difficult situation, not, as you said, a moral failing, not a thing that fundamentally cuts me off from the rest of.

That all makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I bet sober in twelve step programs and they saved my life twice, so I have great things to say about them. And one of the things that eventually caused me to sort of withdraw from that to a certain degree was this idea that is, alcoholics and addicts we were fundamentally different than other people who quote unquote, weren't you know? They were the ormies, We were the sick ones, right, And I just ceased at a certain point to believe that because to your point, there may be something different in my ability to use alcohol from your ability to use alcohol, right, And there may be something different in my level of coping skills versus your coping skills or his level of trauma versus my level of trauma, right, But the core human experience is, Okay, I'm trying to make the best out of my life the best way I can figure out with the tools and the skills that I have, and for some of us, me my way of doing that turned out to ultimately be very destructive for me. But the underlying situation, which was I don't want to hurt so bad, right, is a noble question? Is not that different than say, the parent who doesn't want to hurt so bad because their child is using right. And so to me that commonality seeing like, okay, this is just the human response to a difficult situation, not, as you said, a moral failing, not a thing that fundamentally cuts me off from the rest of.

The human race. Yes, yes, well said yeah, And that cutting off from the human race, or that I'm different or we're different or us addicts kind of language to describe stuff. Again, it can be a very powerful tool, and as you said, it may have been a very powerful tool for some period of time to kind of extend a hand and lift you out of a really bad place. And I think that sense of community and commonality is incredibly powerful. You know of just I have kept myself sequestered away because I'm uniquely bad. But now maybe there's a community people who I can talk with and not feel shame every second. Yes, okay, so that's incredibly powerful. Yes, and can we have more? Can we expand to the common humanity of all of this, which is whether I'm using heroin or not, we're all humans, you know.

The human race. Yes, yes, well said yeah, And that cutting off from the human race, or that I'm different or we're different or us addicts kind of language to describe stuff. Again, it can be a very powerful tool, and as you said, it may have been a very powerful tool for some period of time to kind of extend a hand and lift you out of a really bad place. And I think that sense of community and commonality is incredibly powerful. You know of just I have kept myself sequestered away because I'm uniquely bad. But now maybe there's a community people who I can talk with and not feel shame every second. Yes, okay, so that's incredibly powerful. Yes, and can we have more? Can we expand to the common humanity of all of this, which is whether I'm using heroin or not, we're all humans, you know.

Yeah, that mutual understanding between alcoholics and addicts is the hugely healing thing.

Yeah, that mutual understanding between alcoholics and addicts is the hugely healing thing.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, you know.

I mean I remember my first A meeting and I took the book home and just sobbed as I read it because it was the first time I'd ever heard anybody put words to what was happening in me. Yeah, you know, so I agree with you, Like, there's that initial piece that is really beneficial, and I think it gets to the idea of labels, right. There are situations in which labels and diagnoses are useful and there are situations where they're not. And knowing when and how hard to hold a label or an identity is really kind of an ongoing dance.

I mean I remember my first A meeting and I took the book home and just sobbed as I read it because it was the first time I'd ever heard anybody put words to what was happening in me. Yeah, you know, so I agree with you, Like, there's that initial piece that is really beneficial, and I think it gets to the idea of labels, right. There are situations in which labels and diagnoses are useful and there are situations where they're not. And knowing when and how hard to hold a label or an identity is really kind of an ongoing dance.

Yeah. We hired a pretty young person here recently just for a summer thing in our clinical setting, just as a support person and really nice, really smart person. And they came to me after about a month here. I said, how's it going, and they were like, it's really intense, and really I'm really liking it. It's really great. He's like, I have to be honest, when I when I first started working here, I just sort of had this expectation that the clients were going to be like really hard to deal with and kind of a little bit like crazy and a little bit like my stress. First of all, I was like, holy crap, really.

Yeah. We hired a pretty young person here recently just for a summer thing in our clinical setting, just as a support person and really nice, really smart person. And they came to me after about a month here. I said, how's it going, and they were like, it's really intense, and really I'm really liking it. It's really great. He's like, I have to be honest, when I when I first started working here, I just sort of had this expectation that the clients were going to be like really hard to deal with and kind of a little bit like crazy and a little bit like my stress. First of all, I was like, holy crap, really.

God, we're hiring process.

God, we're hiring process.

How did you slip through the grags? But secondly, I was like, wow, right there it is stated out loud, you know, the cultural norm, the cultural understanding, Like it's those people, they are different somehow. It's insane, and it's such a barrier to help, to helping and to being helped. And you know, it's not like somebody who's struggling in this way is not acutely aware of what role they now occupy in society. You know, people struggling in this way are very deeply understanding of the fact that I don't talk about this stuff with anybody because I'm one of the bad ones. Now, you know, it couldn't be a worse setup for trying to get help. I mean, mental health in general, as you guys are well aware, is stigmatized, so there's sort of all kinds of difficulties with that. But I'll illustrate the whole stigma thing in another realm, which is we're doing increasingly through this vent and epidemic, we're doing more grief work with families. So we have a foundation that does training for families around the country and it's free and it's a great thing, and we use this invitation to change model to train family members and also now to train professionals. But increasingly we're having to deal with death and what they would call in the scientific literature drug related deaths DRDs. And as I started to read that literature over the last year because we don't want to reinvent the wheel here, and there's been a lot of really really good work in this arena of beread meant, but more recently just started to do some work in drug related deaths. And there's a whole literature on status of death, high status deaths, low status deaths. You know, high status death is my wife fought to the bitter end with cancer, and she always put on a brave face and we did fundraisers and you know, she's the face of the campaign now and all that stuff that people go true in that kind of an illness, for instance, which is viewed heroically in our society. You know, she never gave up her spirit, never flagged those kind of things, which is fine, except for it's in contrast to then, Oh, you died from a heroin overdose. Okay, so one, we don't really want to talk about that. Two isn't that kind of your fault? Three isn't that kind of because you're a bad person and you kind of got what you deserved. I mean, it's all these horrific things tied to it. And you can imagine as a family member, first, you've been through this life now with this person where you felt like you couldn't talk about this with your family or your friends or anybody because this is a stigmatized struggle. And now you've lost this dear person in your life and you can't talk about it either. And they say, oh my god, I'm so sorry your son die. What happened? And you're like, what am I going to say? So if I say he died of a fentyl overdose. What do I get back? I get judgment? You know. So, even in that realm of loss, the stigma stuff is so pernicious and so destructive to getting help.

How did you slip through the grags? But secondly, I was like, wow, right there it is stated out loud, you know, the cultural norm, the cultural understanding, Like it's those people, they are different somehow. It's insane, and it's such a barrier to help, to helping and to being helped. And you know, it's not like somebody who's struggling in this way is not acutely aware of what role they now occupy in society. You know, people struggling in this way are very deeply understanding of the fact that I don't talk about this stuff with anybody because I'm one of the bad ones. Now, you know, it couldn't be a worse setup for trying to get help. I mean, mental health in general, as you guys are well aware, is stigmatized, so there's sort of all kinds of difficulties with that. But I'll illustrate the whole stigma thing in another realm, which is we're doing increasingly through this vent and epidemic, we're doing more grief work with families. So we have a foundation that does training for families around the country and it's free and it's a great thing, and we use this invitation to change model to train family members and also now to train professionals. But increasingly we're having to deal with death and what they would call in the scientific literature drug related deaths DRDs. And as I started to read that literature over the last year because we don't want to reinvent the wheel here, and there's been a lot of really really good work in this arena of beread meant, but more recently just started to do some work in drug related deaths. And there's a whole literature on status of death, high status deaths, low status deaths. You know, high status death is my wife fought to the bitter end with cancer, and she always put on a brave face and we did fundraisers and you know, she's the face of the campaign now and all that stuff that people go true in that kind of an illness, for instance, which is viewed heroically in our society. You know, she never gave up her spirit, never flagged those kind of things, which is fine, except for it's in contrast to then, Oh, you died from a heroin overdose. Okay, so one, we don't really want to talk about that. Two isn't that kind of your fault? Three isn't that kind of because you're a bad person and you kind of got what you deserved. I mean, it's all these horrific things tied to it. And you can imagine as a family member, first, you've been through this life now with this person where you felt like you couldn't talk about this with your family or your friends or anybody because this is a stigmatized struggle. And now you've lost this dear person in your life and you can't talk about it either. And they say, oh my god, I'm so sorry your son die. What happened? And you're like, what am I going to say? So if I say he died of a fentyl overdose. What do I get back? I get judgment? You know. So, even in that realm of loss, the stigma stuff is so pernicious and so destructive to getting help.

It really is their barriers, and they are inaccuracy. I mean, it's not correct that this is a moral feeling. It keeps people stuck and suffering, and it's not helpful. We probably have listeners here with family members who are struggling with addiction. You say, the first place to start is, you know, understanding and that behaviors make sense. So if I'm a friend of our family or a helper with a loved one who's got addiction, you know, how do I begin to understand the behaviors that my loved one is exhibiting? Like, for example, can I really help them if they seem like they don't want to change? Like, how do I even start to gain an understanding? Like what's a practical step here?

It really is their barriers, and they are inaccuracy. I mean, it's not correct that this is a moral feeling. It keeps people stuck and suffering, and it's not helpful. We probably have listeners here with family members who are struggling with addiction. You say, the first place to start is, you know, understanding and that behaviors make sense. So if I'm a friend of our family or a helper with a loved one who's got addiction, you know, how do I begin to understand the behaviors that my loved one is exhibiting? Like, for example, can I really help them if they seem like they don't want to change? Like, how do I even start to gain an understanding? Like what's a practical step here?

Right? Well, it's funny, that's such a great way to pair it. How do I help them if they don't want to change? So one of the things we know now is that one of the most powerful ways I can help them if they don't want to change is by understanding them as opposed to trying to get them to do something. If I can just start with understanding, So just to zoom out for a second, the invitation to change approach that I've been told talking about is this model that we've developed over the last five sixty seven years that comes from a variety of other evidence based approaches. And so we didn't like make it up and think, oh this is cool. We got a bunch of smart ideas. This is from several three, in fact, major evidence based ways of helping. One is called community reinforcement and family training. That's craft and that's a very powerful intervention that family members can use. Another is motivational interviewing, which is just learning a new way of communicating that is not confrontational, that is more helpful in terms of eliciting change and inviting change than it is demanding change. And then something called acceptance and commitment therapy, which focuses a lot on changing our relationship to our beliefs, to our own pain. As we say in acceptance and commitment therapy is called act. There's this idea of holding it lightly. So these concepts I have about myself or about other people, or how much pain I can tolerate. Are these kind of things. I can be a little bit more gentle with those ideas and be a little more flexible with those kind of ideas. So anyway, those are the elements that are going into this invitation to change or the ITC and we arrange them in a circle around a wheel. And then there's spokes that are parts of these different sections. There's three main parts. There's helping with understanding, so I'll talk about what those are, but there's elements of how do I understand this in a new way. There's helping with awareness, which is really about can I be more aware of myself in this process of helping, which is a crucial aspect of effectively helping. And then the third part of this is helping with action. What can I literally do? What are my tools, which are mostly in the zone of communication tools, What ways can I engage in communication that are less likely to get in the way, more likely to help illicit change? And what behaviors can I change? What can I reinforce differently, what limits can I set that kind of thing? So those are the three main parts, and then we always preaching practice like no one's good at any of the stuff, You're really gonna have to take some time to learn it. You're expecting, asking, wanting them to change. So if you think about that, you're asking them to try new behaviors. They're going to have to take time to do that, and they need time to practice new things. Being abstinate from a substance or changing my relationship to a substance takes time and takes practice. So practice is an important part for everybody. Then back to what you were asking about, how do I help them understand on a practical level. One of the things that I have just encountered so many times. And I don't know if this will resonate with you guys, but just working with hundreds of families over the last bunch of years, when you ask a father, a wife, a whoever, let's just hold on for a second, what do you think is going on? Why do you think they like drinking? They know the answer. It's not a mystery. Sometimes people will say, I don't know, it's crazy. You know that doesn't make any sense. But if you then slow it down a little bit more, and not that they always do and not that they know all the nuances of it. But people really will be like, yeah, my kid is really anxious. I knew the first time they spoke pot that they had changed their whole relationship to their own anxiety, and it actually allowed them to hang out with their friends. And I was really terrified because I thought, oh, no, this is going to go badly. But they understood the reasons. They understood what was going on in there. And why does your husband drink so much? Well, he hates his job. We have a new baby, and we have a three year old, and he's not that good with kids and he wishes he could be, but he feels bad about himself as a dad and blah blah. So I think he drinks to go to sleep and just turn it off. Okay, not that complicated and incredibly important. And you are actually an expert here, mister and missus family member, which is a really helpful way to start with people, which is not to assign them responsibility then for the change, but it is to say you're the expert here. You actually know much more than I do about your loved one, and let's start with what you understand about this, which again kind of normalized is it and puts it back into the It's not a foreur line fire kind of discussion. It's just like you get it, you understand their behavior. That again, is one of these things that sort of helps change the equation as a starting point for most helpers.

Right? Well, it's funny, that's such a great way to pair it. How do I help them if they don't want to change? So one of the things we know now is that one of the most powerful ways I can help them if they don't want to change is by understanding them as opposed to trying to get them to do something. If I can just start with understanding, So just to zoom out for a second, the invitation to change approach that I've been told talking about is this model that we've developed over the last five sixty seven years that comes from a variety of other evidence based approaches. And so we didn't like make it up and think, oh this is cool. We got a bunch of smart ideas. This is from several three, in fact, major evidence based ways of helping. One is called community reinforcement and family training. That's craft and that's a very powerful intervention that family members can use. Another is motivational interviewing, which is just learning a new way of communicating that is not confrontational, that is more helpful in terms of eliciting change and inviting change than it is demanding change. And then something called acceptance and commitment therapy, which focuses a lot on changing our relationship to our beliefs, to our own pain. As we say in acceptance and commitment therapy is called act. There's this idea of holding it lightly. So these concepts I have about myself or about other people, or how much pain I can tolerate. Are these kind of things. I can be a little bit more gentle with those ideas and be a little more flexible with those kind of ideas. So anyway, those are the elements that are going into this invitation to change or the ITC and we arrange them in a circle around a wheel. And then there's spokes that are parts of these different sections. There's three main parts. There's helping with understanding, so I'll talk about what those are, but there's elements of how do I understand this in a new way. There's helping with awareness, which is really about can I be more aware of myself in this process of helping, which is a crucial aspect of effectively helping. And then the third part of this is helping with action. What can I literally do? What are my tools, which are mostly in the zone of communication tools, What ways can I engage in communication that are less likely to get in the way, more likely to help illicit change? And what behaviors can I change? What can I reinforce differently, what limits can I set that kind of thing? So those are the three main parts, and then we always preaching practice like no one's good at any of the stuff, You're really gonna have to take some time to learn it. You're expecting, asking, wanting them to change. So if you think about that, you're asking them to try new behaviors. They're going to have to take time to do that, and they need time to practice new things. Being abstinate from a substance or changing my relationship to a substance takes time and takes practice. So practice is an important part for everybody. Then back to what you were asking about, how do I help them understand on a practical level. One of the things that I have just encountered so many times. And I don't know if this will resonate with you guys, but just working with hundreds of families over the last bunch of years, when you ask a father, a wife, a whoever, let's just hold on for a second, what do you think is going on? Why do you think they like drinking? They know the answer. It's not a mystery. Sometimes people will say, I don't know, it's crazy. You know that doesn't make any sense. But if you then slow it down a little bit more, and not that they always do and not that they know all the nuances of it. But people really will be like, yeah, my kid is really anxious. I knew the first time they spoke pot that they had changed their whole relationship to their own anxiety, and it actually allowed them to hang out with their friends. And I was really terrified because I thought, oh, no, this is going to go badly. But they understood the reasons. They understood what was going on in there. And why does your husband drink so much? Well, he hates his job. We have a new baby, and we have a three year old, and he's not that good with kids and he wishes he could be, but he feels bad about himself as a dad and blah blah. So I think he drinks to go to sleep and just turn it off. Okay, not that complicated and incredibly important. And you are actually an expert here, mister and missus family member, which is a really helpful way to start with people, which is not to assign them responsibility then for the change, but it is to say you're the expert here. You actually know much more than I do about your loved one, and let's start with what you understand about this, which again kind of normalized is it and puts it back into the It's not a foreur line fire kind of discussion. It's just like you get it, you understand their behavior. That again, is one of these things that sort of helps change the equation as a starting point for most helpers.

Let's move on to a couple other aspects. You know, understanding being really important. Another thing I think is for a family member to take a loving, supportive role, they have to be able to manage their own emotions and what's going on inside them, and that can be really, really difficult. Can we just talk a little bit about that process. I don't think there's an easy answer for it. I don't think you're going to in two sentences say well just do A and B which is what we want? Or you want an easy answer, do this and you'll no longer be terrified. What are some things that FLY members can think about as ways of being able to cope and live in the uncertainty and the fear and the hurt.

Let's move on to a couple other aspects. You know, understanding being really important. Another thing I think is for a family member to take a loving, supportive role, they have to be able to manage their own emotions and what's going on inside them, and that can be really, really difficult. Can we just talk a little bit about that process. I don't think there's an easy answer for it. I don't think you're going to in two sentences say well just do A and B which is what we want? Or you want an easy answer, do this and you'll no longer be terrified. What are some things that FLY members can think about as ways of being able to cope and live in the uncertainty and the fear and the hurt.

Yep, So the way you just put that would be an important place to start, which is, can we invite you to live in the fear and the uncertainty. So the second major section of this approach is self awareness, and we start with very basic tools like can you check in with yourself in terms of your emotions? Can you check in in terms of your physical body and how you're experiencing things? And you're always have a tight feeling in your chest and your stomach is in knots, and your shoulders are up to your ears, and you have headaches and you're constantly tired, And can we check in about your thought processes, like I'm always having panicky thoughts about like we forgot we didn't do enough, or we got to call that other person, or we got to you know. So just starting with basic self awareness, which is something that usually flies out the window, and flies out of the window reasonably as a human animal in the face of emergency. You don't usually stop to check in with yourself when you're standing there and there's a bear across the road. You just do whatever you think you should do, and not even what you think you should do. You just do something which is usually run, which is not necessarily the best thing to do. But that awareness is the anchor to then becoming more effective helper. We often talk about that in terms of this invitation to the helper. It's not just an invitation to the person we're trying to help change. It's an invitation to the helper to be part of the change process and to really make that clear, like you are part of this. It's not just can we get this person to do this and change that. You're part of the change process with them, which includes very foundationally you being aware of yourself, and you being aware of yourself has to do with how do I react, how do I intentionally choose how I'm going to act as part of being a more effective helper, But it also includes checking in with myself, being aware of myself with compassion so that I can take in the fact that this is so freak and stressful. I can't believe it. This has been going on for a year or a month or ten years and it's still happening, and I'm embarrassed and I'm stressed out and I'm terrified, and like, Okay, that's important to acknowledge. To be a sustainable process as a helper, you actually have to look at the gas gage on the car just driving down the road and going I'm not looking at the gas caage. I just have to get to Nevada tonight. I'm just going to keep driving Okay, don't look at the gas gage, but you will run out of gas. So ignoring the internal process, ultimately we'll catch up with you. And it's not a compassionate way to approach yourself, and it's not sustainable. So those are sort of basic tools, and there's all kinds of ways to start to help people notice themselves and check in with themselves and just the behaviors they start to notice about themselves. Can you check in at the end of the day and do a little journaling about you know, how anxious were your thoughts today? Or how many negative types of thoughts do you have about yourself? Or check in every hour for one minute and see what has been the nature of my thinking over this last hour. You know, am I in panic mode? Am I in self hatred mode because I haven't done this right? And you know, am I just numb? And I'm ignoring everything? So those are basic self awareness ideas. But something else you said also makes me want to talk about another part of self awareness, which is the thing I was referencing earlier, that idea of willingness, which is also a pretty crucial part of being a helper, which is the idea of changing our relationship to how difficult this is the pain of this, and again totally normal. I put a hot knife on your skin, You're going to pull your arm away or push my arm away. We want to get away from pain. The impulse to control the pain, to make it stop, to push you away, to go away myself is really strong and is ultimately not going to be such an effective way to help. So the issue is not how do I tolerate more and more pain? The issue is can I change the way I understand this? Because ultimately, the idea of willingness is you are living with your values. You want to be helpful to this person you love. You want to stay connected, you want to be reliable for them, and you want to help make things go in a new direction that is by definition going to be painful. That's the other side of that coin. So my value is what I care about as a person, and the way I want to show up is one side of the coin. The other side is always going to be this is difficult, this is uncomfortable, this is scary, this is heartbreaking, And can I start to understand that that's okay? I don't have to make that go away. As part of this equation, and in fact, it is part and parcel of this of this process that we're engaged in. You know, let's put it in a positive realm. If we think about being in love, that's a coin also, so not many people who've actually been in love think that's the best thing ever and nothing bad ever happens. It's awesome. Once you get in love, you're good for the rest of your life. Most people experience love as and then I got my heart broken, and then they did this and that and I couldn't believe it, or I got scared and the like. It's a mixed bag. And the more intense the positive feeling in that case love, the more risks involved, the more really painful difficult things are going to come along with it. So sort of asking the question, would you rather not have love as a way to take away the pain? So you can do that, you can stay away from relationships and keep the chances of that kind of terrible, heartbreaking pain, keep them low, get them to go away, and you lose the other side of the coin, which is I have an experience of feeling in love, so I'm going to be a helper. Great, that's awesome, That feels important to you to do that with your loved one. Can you get your head around the fact that it's scary, it's vulnerable, Bad things happen, You'll feel bad, you'll feel disappointed, it's okay. Can we include both of those as part of this process.

Yep, So the way you just put that would be an important place to start, which is, can we invite you to live in the fear and the uncertainty. So the second major section of this approach is self awareness, and we start with very basic tools like can you check in with yourself in terms of your emotions? Can you check in in terms of your physical body and how you're experiencing things? And you're always have a tight feeling in your chest and your stomach is in knots, and your shoulders are up to your ears, and you have headaches and you're constantly tired, And can we check in about your thought processes, like I'm always having panicky thoughts about like we forgot we didn't do enough, or we got to call that other person, or we got to you know. So just starting with basic self awareness, which is something that usually flies out the window, and flies out of the window reasonably as a human animal in the face of emergency. You don't usually stop to check in with yourself when you're standing there and there's a bear across the road. You just do whatever you think you should do, and not even what you think you should do. You just do something which is usually run, which is not necessarily the best thing to do. But that awareness is the anchor to then becoming more effective helper. We often talk about that in terms of this invitation to the helper. It's not just an invitation to the person we're trying to help change. It's an invitation to the helper to be part of the change process and to really make that clear, like you are part of this. It's not just can we get this person to do this and change that. You're part of the change process with them, which includes very foundationally you being aware of yourself, and you being aware of yourself has to do with how do I react, how do I intentionally choose how I'm going to act as part of being a more effective helper, But it also includes checking in with myself, being aware of myself with compassion so that I can take in the fact that this is so freak and stressful. I can't believe it. This has been going on for a year or a month or ten years and it's still happening, and I'm embarrassed and I'm stressed out and I'm terrified, and like, Okay, that's important to acknowledge. To be a sustainable process as a helper, you actually have to look at the gas gage on the car just driving down the road and going I'm not looking at the gas caage. I just have to get to Nevada tonight. I'm just going to keep driving Okay, don't look at the gas gage, but you will run out of gas. So ignoring the internal process, ultimately we'll catch up with you. And it's not a compassionate way to approach yourself, and it's not sustainable. So those are sort of basic tools, and there's all kinds of ways to start to help people notice themselves and check in with themselves and just the behaviors they start to notice about themselves. Can you check in at the end of the day and do a little journaling about you know, how anxious were your thoughts today? Or how many negative types of thoughts do you have about yourself? Or check in every hour for one minute and see what has been the nature of my thinking over this last hour. You know, am I in panic mode? Am I in self hatred mode because I haven't done this right? And you know, am I just numb? And I'm ignoring everything? So those are basic self awareness ideas. But something else you said also makes me want to talk about another part of self awareness, which is the thing I was referencing earlier, that idea of willingness, which is also a pretty crucial part of being a helper, which is the idea of changing our relationship to how difficult this is the pain of this, and again totally normal. I put a hot knife on your skin, You're going to pull your arm away or push my arm away. We want to get away from pain. The impulse to control the pain, to make it stop, to push you away, to go away myself is really strong and is ultimately not going to be such an effective way to help. So the issue is not how do I tolerate more and more pain? The issue is can I change the way I understand this? Because ultimately, the idea of willingness is you are living with your values. You want to be helpful to this person you love. You want to stay connected, you want to be reliable for them, and you want to help make things go in a new direction that is by definition going to be painful. That's the other side of that coin. So my value is what I care about as a person, and the way I want to show up is one side of the coin. The other side is always going to be this is difficult, this is uncomfortable, this is scary, this is heartbreaking, And can I start to understand that that's okay? I don't have to make that go away. As part of this equation, and in fact, it is part and parcel of this of this process that we're engaged in. You know, let's put it in a positive realm. If we think about being in love, that's a coin also, so not many people who've actually been in love think that's the best thing ever and nothing bad ever happens. It's awesome. Once you get in love, you're good for the rest of your life. Most people experience love as and then I got my heart broken, and then they did this and that and I couldn't believe it, or I got scared and the like. It's a mixed bag. And the more intense the positive feeling in that case love, the more risks involved, the more really painful difficult things are going to come along with it. So sort of asking the question, would you rather not have love as a way to take away the pain? So you can do that, you can stay away from relationships and keep the chances of that kind of terrible, heartbreaking pain, keep them low, get them to go away, and you lose the other side of the coin, which is I have an experience of feeling in love, so I'm going to be a helper. Great, that's awesome, That feels important to you to do that with your loved one. Can you get your head around the fact that it's scary, it's vulnerable, Bad things happen, You'll feel bad, you'll feel disappointed, it's okay. Can we include both of those as part of this process.

You know a lot of the things you're describing there, for me fall under the umbrella of mindfulness. I'm a mindfulness teacher and I have a mindfulness practice, and I mean learning about mindfulness and practicing mindfulness, I think is something that can help you gain self awareness. It can help you gain emotional regulation and increase your distress tolerance. It can help you, you know, learn how to be with this pain and the discomfort without feeling like you need to banish it or run away from it. I mean, there's so much that can be gained there, so I just mention it as listeners are hearing all of this. That's also another avenue to pursue, and that would do a lot of the things you're talking about.

You know a lot of the things you're describing there, for me fall under the umbrella of mindfulness. I'm a mindfulness teacher and I have a mindfulness practice, and I mean learning about mindfulness and practicing mindfulness, I think is something that can help you gain self awareness. It can help you gain emotional regulation and increase your distress tolerance. It can help you, you know, learn how to be with this pain and the discomfort without feeling like you need to banish it or run away from it. I mean, there's so much that can be gained there, so I just mention it as listeners are hearing all of this. That's also another avenue to pursue, and that would do a lot of the things you're talking about.

Yeah, as a self compassion and mindfulness person, you're probably familiar with Kristin Neff or yes, yep, So you know she's done a lot of research on self compassion, and one of the elements of self compassion is present, moment focus or mindfulness. So if we apply it directly to I am a family member, I'm trying to help and my kid is not home yet. Just to make it incredibly concrete, what is a self compassionate, self aware, mindful tool? Why is it important in that moment? Because I can then anticipate them coming home for the next two hours, which is not being present, it's living in the future. I can keep reciting all the nasty things I'm going to say to them for making me feel so scared. I can be remembering when this happened a year ago and they had been in a car accident and it was horrible, and I'm just imagining that's what's going to happen now. None of that's about being present or mindful, you know. So you're right, it's a very powerful tool, and it's a part of this idea of the self compassion part of this. You know, how do I not go to those places and stay here with what's actually real?

Yeah, as a self compassion and mindfulness person, you're probably familiar with Kristin Neff or yes, yep, So you know she's done a lot of research on self compassion, and one of the elements of self compassion is present, moment focus or mindfulness. So if we apply it directly to I am a family member, I'm trying to help and my kid is not home yet. Just to make it incredibly concrete, what is a self compassionate, self aware, mindful tool? Why is it important in that moment? Because I can then anticipate them coming home for the next two hours, which is not being present, it's living in the future. I can keep reciting all the nasty things I'm going to say to them for making me feel so scared. I can be remembering when this happened a year ago and they had been in a car accident and it was horrible, and I'm just imagining that's what's going to happen now. None of that's about being present or mindful, you know. So you're right, it's a very powerful tool, and it's a part of this idea of the self compassion part of this. You know, how do I not go to those places and stay here with what's actually real?

Yes, So then do you recommend that and as part of what you do, give people training in that, because it's one thing to recognize, to check in and go, Okay, I'm upset inside. Yeah, I'm living in the future. Yeah, telling myself stories that may not be real. It's a whole nother thing to actually then be able to somehow work with that in a skillful way. Yeah, right, you know, because the emotions around this stuff can run so hi. I mean, if you know, the thought of your child dying, there's not a much more primal thing to wrestle with, Like I just want to be compassionate to listeners and people listening to say like, these are all the right actions, but the emotion around it doesn't just change easily. Yeah, how do you encourage people to be on a learning journey with that and to be able to manage those really primal sort of emotions.

Yes, So then do you recommend that and as part of what you do, give people training in that, because it's one thing to recognize, to check in and go, Okay, I'm upset inside. Yeah, I'm living in the future. Yeah, telling myself stories that may not be real. It's a whole nother thing to actually then be able to somehow work with that in a skillful way. Yeah, right, you know, because the emotions around this stuff can run so hi. I mean, if you know, the thought of your child dying, there's not a much more primal thing to wrestle with, Like I just want to be compassionate to listeners and people listening to say like, these are all the right actions, but the emotion around it doesn't just change easily. Yeah, how do you encourage people to be on a learning journey with that and to be able to manage those really primal sort of emotions.

So I think of this model as one that allows for tons of room for skill building and learning from lots of different buckets. I'll go back to kind of the center of the circle, the invitation of the chain circle being practice, practice, practice. It's an ongoing mantra, and it's a mantra of self compassion to your point, which is, yeah, these are good ideas, and now what right, like the hell? Like, what am I supposed to do? With that. Yeah, you try sitting there at ten o'clock at night not losing your crap, you know about my kids not home yet. So we do encourage people, and part of that is is normalizing it in a community. I'm looking around the room at a bunch of other parents who are also like, oh my god, you know, how can I possibly stay calm in those moments. I'm getting feedback from people who have stepped down that road a little bit further and have actually had some experiences of being more mindful and what it gave them. So I can draw on the community support and learning for that. And then there's formal practices. You know, what does it mean to be more mindful? You know? Can I start doing a meditation practice? Can I start doing square breathing? Can I, you know, do any number of very basic beginning ideas of how do I stay present a little bit more? I think in the context of early work with people, it's also about kind of talk about this with other people, you know, kind of get feedback, kind of get support. Can I normalize this, get encouragement. We get it, you know, we get how hard that is. And let's start with that. Let's affirm the fact that this is really hard and there's a really big lift, you know, and you're not going to know how to do it very well.

So I think of this model as one that allows for tons of room for skill building and learning from lots of different buckets. I'll go back to kind of the center of the circle, the invitation of the chain circle being practice, practice, practice. It's an ongoing mantra, and it's a mantra of self compassion to your point, which is, yeah, these are good ideas, and now what right, like the hell? Like, what am I supposed to do? With that. Yeah, you try sitting there at ten o'clock at night not losing your crap, you know about my kids not home yet. So we do encourage people, and part of that is is normalizing it in a community. I'm looking around the room at a bunch of other parents who are also like, oh my god, you know, how can I possibly stay calm in those moments. I'm getting feedback from people who have stepped down that road a little bit further and have actually had some experiences of being more mindful and what it gave them. So I can draw on the community support and learning for that. And then there's formal practices. You know, what does it mean to be more mindful? You know? Can I start doing a meditation practice? Can I start doing square breathing? Can I, you know, do any number of very basic beginning ideas of how do I stay present a little bit more? I think in the context of early work with people, it's also about kind of talk about this with other people, you know, kind of get feedback, kind of get support. Can I normalize this, get encouragement. We get it, you know, we get how hard that is. And let's start with that. Let's affirm the fact that this is really hard and there's a really big lift, you know, and you're not going to know how to do it very well.

Yeah, we've talked a bit about understanding your loved one and why they do what they do. We've talked about how important it is to care for yourself and gain some of these self awareness and self regulation tools. So let's move on to actually how to help. You talk a lot about starting where your loved one is, and you also introduce this idea of positive communication as a critical skill for making change. You say, positive communication skills will improve your odds of being heard and your loved one feeling understood. But for any given conversation, the outcome is not guaranteed, right. You talk about not attaching to the outcome. So I'm wondering if you can just explain a little bit about what are positive communication skills and what does that look like in practice.