The Official Jets PodcastLinebacker Jamien Sherwood Talks About His Decision to Return to the Jets
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We got an amazing podcast in store for you today. In a couple of moments, we're gonna join. We're gonna be joined by Jets team MVP from twenty twenty four, Jamie Surewood. He signed with the Green and White even before free agency kicked off. But Green's your overall thoughts here is the Jets have gotten this thing underway their off season under Darren Mougi and Eron Glenn.
I think that they've done a great job so far.
I think that Sherwood is a kind of a microcosm of what the Jets want to be. Like Aaron Glenn just I don't know him all too well, but speaking to him in Indianapoli when he was on our live show, he got the sense that he wanted players, hey that want to be here, be that play hard. And I always with Sherwood revert back to the Dolphins game in Miami when he had eighteen tackles. The Jets season had already gone down a path that nobody thought that it was going to go down, and he had his best game of his career. And it just shows like it doesn't matter the day, the time, the record, the place.
Jamie sherw was always going to put in the work and.
He was rewarded for man.
He was ready for his opportunity.
He was a fifth round pick out of Auburn back in twenty twenty one, and he was a reserve here this first three seasons dealt with the achilles and then in twenty twenty four when CJ. Mosley, the heartbeat of that defense, the middle linebacker. He went down with the toe injury in Week two and then later sustained, unfortunately, the neck injury prior to that game Week seven against the New England Patriots. He was ready for his moment. And the bottom line here is if Sherwood hit the market, he would have had multiple suitors. Yeah, but Moogi got this done before anybody could take their shot.
Yeah, I think there's a testament to the job that Darren Moosey did and who and his staff, and.
I think what goes overlooked with Jamian Sherwood.
Obviously he had a great season last year, not only for the Jets, obviously in the NFL as well considering his tackle numbers. But before that, he was like a special team's ace for the Jets. It's not like he was just a backup who didn't take a lot of reps. He in twenty twenty three took four hundred and twenty snaps on special teams. He's the only player on the team to go over four hundred, and he was essentially one of the core pieces on what was Brent Boyer's unit at the time. And then he gets his opportunity on defense and he doesn't miss a beat and he just steps right in. He gets better every week. And you know, if you're a Jets fan, I think you got to feel good about this. Then there's no way that you can't feel good about it.
He's a great culture fit, and he's young, and he loves ball and he was ready for his opportunity, And I thought that was a huge siding because he is the quarterback in the defense, and then the pairing with him and Quincy Williams, that's a really dynamic middle playing behind Quincy's brother, of course, Quinn Williams.
Yeah, it's and it keeps a lot of the defense intact.
And for what it's worth, I think the Jets defense has a lot of very talented players and the nucleus of the team with quinnin and Quincy, Jamian Sauce, Michael Carter the second there's a lot of talented pieces Jermaine and Will McDonald that forgot about them. To me, there's no reason why if you're Steve Wilkes, you don't think you can be at least above average, right, Like, the Jets have really good personnel, and I'm interested to see how Steve.
Wilkes wants to run his defense through these pieces.
Yeah, they're certainly not on because we're here for he actually kicked off a couple moments ago.
So it's Wednesday, we're taping.
Jets are gonna have to do something at defensive tackle. It's been so interesting the movement here throughout the National Football League. Javine kin Law he scored a lucrative deal with the Washington Commanders. And you know what automatically thought when I saw that deal was compensatory picks for the Jets. In twenty twenty six, not only does kin Law go, but Solomon Thomas. No surprise here, because I'm always looking at connections throughout the National Football League.
He joins the Dallas Cowboys. Who's their new defensive line coach? It's Aaron White Potton of course.
Yeah, so smarts on that stuff.
There you go and then you go back.
You know, so, I don't know if you want to touch upon a defensive tackle at all, or if we should go back to the secondary because there's a lot of changes there.
What you do have in place here.
Is Sauce Gardner, one of the top young talents at the position at the cornerback position in football. Michael Carter the second who's chomping at the bit to have a season where he's fully healthy. I think people forget how valuable he is at that nickel position.
But Brandon Stevens could be your new CB two. Because DJ Reed signs with Aaron Glenn's former team in free agency, the Detroit Lions.
Brandon Eckles agrees to terms with the Pittsburgh Steelers. He was the backup there on the outside and then in a safety position. We anticipated a lot of movement because the Jets had four safeties heading into free agency.
Ashton Davis. Of course, he signs with Miami Dolphins.
But the Jets get a free safety in Andre Cisco, a kid who grew up in Queens. Well, he was born in Queens, but he grew up on Long Island, What's Syracuse.
And he's a rangy athlete.
He's just twenty four years old, So Steven's twenty seven years old. Played on the outside, It's got some position flexibility, and then Cisco is a guy who hopefully can help this defense take the.
Next steps in terms of takeaways.
Yeah, I think that the Andre Cisco move along with Stevens won They're both versatile pieces and that's obviously a big piece of this equation for the Jets. Again, my biggest question is really on both sides of the ball. With Wilts, I think less so because we have an understanding of what he wants to do. I think on offense, when you factor him the Justin Fields move and what the Jets have on offense, my biggest question is how similar or dissimilar is it actually gonna look from Detroit's offense, based on personnel, based on what Tanner Engstrand wants to do.
We just don't know.
Like I think it's easy to say, Okay, well, Tanner Engstram comes from the Ben Johnson scheme in Detroit. I'm just not quite sure how much of a carbon copy he'll try to make it.
I love the Fields edition. I mean, he's twenty six years old, he's a former number eleven overall selection in the draft. He had some success in Chicago, of course, then he goes to Pittsburgh last year he was four and two as a starter. I think the Jets offense is gonna be predicated on running the football, and again they got away from that last year, did not have a tremendous lot tremendous amount of success on the ground. But there are pieces here, especially in that backfield with Breess harn Company and those young backs. Now you add fields to the equation, and my thing is, that's a fair question. What is Engstrand, how is he gonna dial it up? Well, you have different personnel here. But I do think what you can take away from Detroit is the quarterback is going to be more under center. The Jets are going to try to add some more pieces to the offensive line because they're going to want to dominate upfront, and then they're going to try to get the playmakers of the ball with some play action. And I really could see the Jets putting in a lot of pressure on defenses with those RPOs and the zone reads if it is indeed Field, So, I mean Tyrod Taller can do that as well. Other guy's got DULs Rutt, but Fields as a guy's averaged more than fifty yards per game on the grounds throughout his career. He had more than a thousand yards a couple of years back with the Chicago Bears. And we've seen his development and I don't think he's a finished product. So it's gonna be interesting pairing him up with Inkstrand and Charles London, new quarterback coach.
Yeah.
I think also what the Jets have in Taylor and Fields, I think at this point in their career, Fields is probably a stronger runner, just given his age and given that he has the second most rushing yards by quarterback in a single season.
In NFL history.
Yep, Tyron I don't know if it's fair to say he's probably a little bit more of a polished passer, but I would give him a slight edge for sure, just as a passer. And he's seen more defenses and he's probably than what Justin Fields has seen.
But to me, their skill sets are similar. So what the Jets seem like they're implementing is no matter who starts under center, they're gonna run a similar offense. It's not a case where.
This is one offense for this guy and this is one offense for another.
Fields is a big dude too.
He's sixty three and twenty seven pounds, and Glenn was a defensive coordinator, was calling signals against him of course when Age was in Detroit and Fields was that quarterback in Chicago, so he knows firsthand, Hey, what kind of pressure does he put on us as a defense, Because you're gonna have to defend all eleven players. He becomes a numbers game with Fields back there. So you know, good for him to get this opportunity, and good for the Jets because this is the guy they wanted. And there was a lot of people out there, frankly who said Pittsburgh wanted Fields back.
Yeah, and he was four and two last year as a starter.
And yeah, I think what happened in Pittsburgh is just very interesting because we'll never really know, you know, did Justin Fields get benched? Was it just it was always Russell Wilson's job and when he got healthy he came back. Like, we'll never really know the answer, but the facts of the facts, Justin Field's foreign to as a starter. He had a career high completion percentage, a career high passer rating, and he's dynamic with the football when he runs.
And he's also gonna be thrown at Garrett Wilson.
And I know Pittsburgh had some interesting pieces, a friar moveth at the tight end position, George Pickens, guy can get down the field.
But Field's played.
With Garrett Wilson before in Ohio State, so those guys will rein nite. And again, I think this Jets offense ultimately is gonna be predicated on running the football. And oh, by the way, this does not necessarily mean there's a period that in a sentence at the quarterback position, the Jets could go back in the draft and add somebody else. We yeah, so we don't know what these guys are going to do. Because we haven't heard from Mugie, we haven't heard from ag. I think the next time we might hear from them is League meetings down in Florida in a couple of weeks. But it'll be interesting to see how they talk about that. But the one thing that was clear that Glenn has said since he got here boots back on the ground at one Jets drive, he wants competition at all positions.
Yeah, and I think that the Jets will certainly try to achieve that at all positions. There's moves to be made between now in the draft, and I know that what any team, and in this case, what the Jets do now, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to avoid that position in the draft. Like we talked about it briefly, like tight end. Even if the Jets at a tight end, it doesn't necessarily mean that a guy like Tyler Warren, who's projected as a potential option of the Jets at seven overall.
Doesn't mean the Jets won't add him.
Right Well, I just think that there's moves to be made, and I think that the Jets are sitting pretty in a good spot.
I don't think the Jets are done in safety, but you know, the shuffling in the secondary is interesting. But linebacker, that was a huge geit bringing Surewood back. And then the other thing that we'll watch here in the early stages of free and see, because there are on multiple tiers, is we're going to continue to watch it defensive tackle position, tight end position on all offense.
And then speaking of receiver, wide receiver too. I mean, Alan Czard is still on the roster.
You got a couple of young guys in Xavier Gibson and Melky Corley who didn't see the field much there in his rookie season. But DeVante Adams is now in Los Angeles with the Rams.
So who's going to be lining up across from Wilson next year?
We don't know yet another valid question, and the Jets could again sign and draft someone at that position as well. You know, I think you mentioned linebacker, and a lot of people think about Sherwood and Quincy Williams as they naturally do, and you should, but the Jets had a lot of reserve linebackers play meaningfuls either snaps on defense and really really special teams. Sam mcgualbin and Chas Serrod or two's core special teams. Now the question is is linebacker a core position for Chris Banjo, the new special teams coordinator?
How does he view special.
It's a great point because Davis Ashton Davis was a very valuable piece for Ramployer when when Boyer was here in Nichols as well.
So listen, bottom.
Line, Dervin Charles is coming off of major injury.
Yeah, Jets aren't Thoon, but again, nobody's celebrating around here. But I thought it was huge to get Fields because that's a quarterback they wanted. And then to get Jamie and Shortwood that's the way you start.
Free and seal often. Speaking of Shortwood, let's get to that interview right now.
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What was it like when you're putting pen to paper?
It still doesn't feel real, but obviously it's an accomplishment. Like I've said before, you know, my high school coach used to talk about a second contract all the time, and I never knew he was talking about like I was in high school. So the fact that, like, you know, I'm actually doing it now and what he said was true, you know, it's just crazy. At the end of the day, you know, things like this, it's something you dream.
Of as a kid.
You know, getting the opportunity to take care of your family, take care of yourself, seeing the work that you put in come to light. You know, it's just an amazing feeling. And I'm blessed to be in this position I am today.
All right, people aren't seeing this who are watching right now? But your mom is here? Why did you bring her the facility today?
Because she's been there since day one, the first second I opened my eyes, the first second I came into this world.
She's been there.
So I wouldn't be right not to share this moment with her. What does she meant to you throughout this journey everything? When you know we come up short on Sundays, when we come up big on Sundays, you know she's she's got the same message, you know, keep going no matter what. You know, when I have a bad game, when I have a good game, you know, she always just tells me like, you know what to do, you know how to fix it, and there's always just more on the table. Even with this contract that I got, you know, not satisfied going for the third contract. You know, there's always just more on the table, you know, just having her by my side, she just always basically keeps that in my ear, you know, don't get satisfied doing get comfortable, keep going.
What was that conversation like when you told her that, hey, this is done, now I'm staying here.
Screaming, Yeah, excitement and yeah that is it.
Not really too many worries at first. She's just again a lot of screaming.
Okay, So season nine and January sixth, like we were just talking about what was your mindset heading into this offseason, knowing that.
You had an expiring contract and you were coming off her career.
Year, praying that I got to stay here. Obviously, you know, I can't control what tomorrow brings, and I can only control what I can control at the end of the day. But knowing that I'm going into free agency and there was options and stuff that I could explore and go other places, I wanted to be here at the end of the day. Regardless of there was a lot of chaos that went on last season and stuff like that. But again, like the relationships I built with everybody in this building, it wouldn't feel right to.
Me to go somewhere else. You know.
This is where I've made a home and this is where I would like to continue to be for the rest of my career and stuff like that. So when the season ended, you know, I couldn't wait for basically March twelfth, the free agency window, so I could resign here.
What were those hours like when he saw Bolton re sign with the Chiefs, You're looking at the linebacker market and you had an each and of course, and then leading up to you saying with the Jets, Okay, this deal is right, let's get it done before free agency.
Why did it happen before free agency even starts.
I wish this happened in January seventh. But you know, I can't watch what other people do, obviously, you see it. Everybody is different, you know, they had a different career than I had, so I couldn't really compare what I had going on to theirs. You know, I just had to trust God, trust my agent, you know, just stay faithful to what I know, and that's just being myself at the end of the day, whether it was less or more, you know, again, that's not that's out of my hands.
You know. All I can do is.
Go out there, play to my best ability, make everybody proud the best way I can, you know, just keep God first.
Speaking a boy my mom, you know, we talked about it.
You know, we actually had a number in our head, and you know, I was like, well, I don't know this, maybe I hope this and she was just like, you know, just speaking into existence and the power of the tongue is real.
I did and it happened.
Have you seen money change people before? And also how is your approach going to be the same Jamie as always, even though that you were being paid more handsomely than you ever have.
I mean, I wouldn't say like I've seen it change people. You know again, you know what people do with their money, you know, that's on them at the end of the day.
What I do with mind is on me.
I wouldn't say it had changed me, you know, but you do have to carry yourself differently when you become someone with this type of money.
I will say it's going to change my family's lives for sure. That was the main goal.
That was the main thing about getting something like this, you know, to help out my family, just to give us the things that we didn't have before, and again just to make us happy.
That's why I played football, just to help change my family life.
So what were your interactions like with Aaron Glenn, Steve Wilkes. Aaron Curry wants this new staff.
Was a place.
Each each moment and each conversation was something different, but the same thing. Three guys that have played at a high level have done the same thing that I'm doing at this moment, signing contracts, playing football for NFL teams and stuff. So Coach Glenn, I say, off our first interaction, I could tell that, you know, he's super passionate.
He loves football, eat, drink, sleep whatever. Football. With Coach Wilkes, I can just tell he's just a happy person.
He's super excited, very anxious, like, you know, he's ready to play ball right now. Coach Curry, you know he was super laid back. You know, I could kind of see some of myself and him and stuff. So again, just having three coaches that have done it the same way, I can it for me is different because I can see how they see it, they can see how I see it, they can see how I feel.
I can understand how they felt.
And the fact that they each played three different positions, now I'm getting a different perspective from basically different angles on the field and coach coach Curry playing linebacker, Coach Glenn playing defensive back. So now I can ask some questions, how would you do this when you were playing, How would you do this when you were in this spot, et cetera. And again, it's just a blessing to be able to play under these guys going forward.
How would you describe a g.
Like I just said, passionate?
You know, when we started talking about you know, you can't listen to the tone. You got to listen to the message because like it was getting super into it and stuff like that. But the first day we sat down, I could just tell that he loves football. We barely spoke and he started showing me film and getting on the board and stuff like that. And I'm a teachable person, coachable person, so it's like I love stuff like that because I do love to learn. And you know, we don't have a great relationship.
You're a great athlete, but you love the cerebral aspects to the game.
Can you speak to how much you love.
The thinking aspect of football, the study that goes involved, and how much that work off.
The field put you in position to succeed last year?
Well again, making the transition from safety to linebacker. You know, it's a different game, and now it's Any decision I make now has to be a little bit faster just because I'm closer to the line of scrimmage. So you know, the best football players are the smartest football players understanding that, Like, once the offense breaks the huddle, if you can already at least eliminate the things that they're not gonna do, that's just gonna put you one step forward. So I spend a lot of time just studying just so I can get that one step ahead, get that one inch on the offense. Because the game is, the game of football is all about inches. So again, me just understanding where they're not gonna run the ball, where they're not gonna throw the ball, It's gonna put me in a better position. It's gonna put my teammates in a better position. From a communications standpoint, y'all can just play.
As fast as possible.
Mike linebacker, you consider that the quarterback of the defense.
Oh yeah, without the mic linebacker, I mean, it could really be any position. But in our defense, the mic does make the communication. So without him, the other ten players won't be able to get the call. He is the one with the green dot. So the defensive coordinators is telling me at the end of the day, or telling who's ever wearing that?
So he is a quarterback.
Were you naturally a vocal guy or did that come with time in terms of, hey, listen, everybody's looking at me and I'm going to take command here.
No, I wasn't in college. I doesn't speak at all.
And then some of my coaches, you know, they got it out me, yelling at me to just be louder. And then like I sat there and just said, you know, like if I just speak a little louder, they stop yelling at me. So ultimately that led and translated to the NFL. And then again as I gained more confidence and got more comfortable around my teammates to helped me become a better leader and a more vocal leader and stuff like that. So again, just going out there on Sundays. It just became like us just hanging out in the locker room, us just being out of practice in the meeting room, just me being able to say whatever I want to say respectfully to my teammates and ultimately helping us try to get the job done.
What is CJ mostly meant to?
For everything?
I'll say, you know, God makes no mistakes in anything that he does, and the people that he.
Makes you cross paths with, he does it for a reason. CJ.
You know, from the moment I got in here, you know, I was nervous to just speak to CJ just because of CJ. Like I used to play the video game and he was on there. He also went to the rival school of my college, so it was like, I don't know if we're gonna be friends. I don't know how serious the rival is to him. But you know, he's just been great every day he's here. He just answers every question that we have for him, no matter who asked, no matter when. You know, I could text him right now, he'll answer a question that I have.
And he's just been amazing.
Like you know, he put his arm around me, and you know, basically you just said, we're going to do it together, and you know, I always appreciate him, and without him and other guys in that room, you know, this moment, this opportunity, wouldn't be possible.
You don't have the team success that you guys wanted last year on the field, of course, finishing five to twelve, But can you speak to the individual steps that you took along the way in twenty twenty four that led you to being Team MVP voted by the guys in the room.
I'll just say basically again, just still on CJ. You know, obviously when he went down, I was devastating to our room, to our defense, to our team because you know, he's our captain, he's our leader. So for me to have to basically fill in that spot take tremendous pride with it because.
Not only did I have to.
Play to his standard, to his level of expertise, I had to be the one to get our defense set. We didn't come up the way we wanted to this season, like you said, but again, just taking on that leadership role was the main thing.
Regardless of the.
Accolades, the stats, you know that all came with just me being a player of the game and studying stuff. But I say, like, really everything came because of how comfortable I am around my teammates, the respect that they had for me to come in and feel in for him. So without them, none of that would be possible, because I could have just gone out there and if I didn't feel the love from them, I wouldn't have been able to play the way I would have liked. To the fact that they embraced me stepping in and you know, they believed in me, that was everything for me, and everything else just happened.
Were there games that you would say that you were in a zone, Maybe it's a Miami where you have eighteen tackles. I think there were six or seven games where you attend plus tackles where you're just like, whatever play is out there on the field, I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna make sure somebody's going down.
Well, you know, every game, you know, I had to have that mindset because you know, I'm playing next to Quincy Williams. You know, he's the fastest dude on the field, so it's like, if I don't get there, he's gonna get there. And again, that's the type of respect you want to have for a player you're playing next to, because when the game's not funny anymore, you're not gonna you're not gonna love it. So the fact that like he's my brother and I can go out there and compete with him, and like, you know, it's like nah, because I want to be better than you, because we're trying to make each other better. Uh, that's what basically would put me in the zone. Like I'm playing next to.
An All pro player. I got to play up to his standard.
I got to play to the standard that he created.
So yeah, how much do you enjoy it? The cat and mouse game that happens out there on the field. Brian Baldinger just did a breakdown to you, And there's plays where you're faking coming under pressure and then you're turned around reeling back in coverage because you see that oftentimes where you're saying you're showing something but you're going somewhere else.
Well, you got some amazing quarterbacks on the other side of the ball, guys in our division and across the league. So having a guy like Air in the past couple of years playing across from him, he taught me so much.
Taught me where to look.
Where to be at, how quarterback's eyes can control us, and basically how a quarterback knows what we're taught to do and they're going against our rules. So being able to disguise and be able to drop back and come forward and side to side, you know, all that stuff matters because again, those guys get paid to Those guys are just as smart as me, if not smart, So trying to figure out ways to outsmart them to put myself in a position to make a play. Again, like I said earlier, it's a game of inches, so finding that one little inch to be successful, It all matters.
Do you have expectations for yourself coming out of Auburn twenty one?
I mean, obviously to just keep getting better. You know, when I heard I was going to be transitioned to linebacker, at first, you know, I was a little bummed because you know, I had worked my whole life, my whole high school career, trying to be a safety in college playing safety. But my only goal was, you know, just go like this is something I worked for. So regardless of what happened, I wasn't gonna let it beat beat me down. You know, I was just gonna get up every time and do what I had to do. At the end of the day, did I know what I was getting myself into?
Not at all.
But again, I had made it to the NFL for a reason, you know. I know God didn't bring me this fars just to bring me that far, and I knew there was there was more on the table for myself.
How are you absorbing the rest of what the Jets are doing in free agency right now? You've got a couple of new teammates and the defensive side of the ball and Brandon Stevens and Andre Cisco of course.
So thinking about Andre Cisco is we graduated high school at the same time. So like I've seen that, I've seen his name everywhere. You know, he's a phenomenal player, just watching him throughout college as Sarah ques Uh, He's a ball hall, you know, he makes plays all across the field. So I'm excited to play with a guy like that. Brandon Stevens, I'm excited for him and his family. You know, he's helped change his family, his lives for the rest of the rest of the time. And again just going forward to everybody else after just meeting with everybody, Darren ag You know they love ball, so I know they're.
Gonna find guys that love ball.
And I'm just excited to play with everybody, build more relationships, make friendships and doing stuff in the city, just everything.
So let me ask you how much pressure does a quarterback like Justin Fields put on a defense a lot?
You know, he can run, he can throw the same thing. He graduated twenty eighteen, just like us. You know, I watched him when he was at Georgia and then he went to Ohio State, and then I've watched him throughout his career in the league. You know, he's gonna make us better at practice. You know we need something like that. And he's gonna make defenses worry because it's like, you don't know if he's gonna run it, you don't know if he's gonna throw it.
You don't know what you're gonna get at him.
So I'm excited to play with him, you know, happy for him and his family as well.
How difficult is that to defend those rbo it's his own reads, and on top of it, this is a big dude who's got an explosive arm.
It's hard because the moment you turn your back and you're in coverage and stuff, and you're thirty yards downfield and it's like third and long. You're hoping to get off the field, and the guy like that just runs and it's first down again, and now you're on the field. So it can be demoralizing to a defense. And that's what he's gonna do for us. He's gonna help break defenses down, and our defense is gonna get on the field, do what we gotta do, and we'll get some wins.
You've played here for seasons.
How hungry are you to turn this thing around and be a part of it now? Because you know you're not going anywhere else. Your interest could be one Jets drive for a while.
Oh forever, I hope. But that was the main thing about me coming back here.
You know, I wanted to since I started here and it hasn't gone the way that I've wanted that everyone else is wanted. I want to help be a part of the reason it does turn around again. Like the guys we're getting now, the guys that we have on the team, I want us all to be smiling, hosting a trophy, having celebrations and parades in the city, you know, I feel like every man and every woman in this building deserves that because you know, it hasn't been the best of the last few years. And again it would have hurt me to go somewhere else and to see the success that the Jets are gonna have in twenty five.
So I wanted nothing but to be a part of that.
I think there's gonna be a lot more forty fours at Les Stadium the next season.
What's your message to the fame since we move ahead.
No matter what jersey you have on, you know, just continue to show up and show out again. Like I said before, it's not gonna the sun isn't gonna shine every day, but it also isn't gonna rain every day. As long as you just stick with us and they support us, you know, ultimately that's all you need. Good foundation, good fans, and just like a good like just someone like a shoulder the li on. Basically, like I said, like when it's raining, still stick beside us.
And when it's shine and stick beside us. And ultimately, you know, come January next year, we're all gonna be happy.
Well, the sun doesn't shine every day, but the sun certainly is shining today Jamie Sure with Congressman.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Mhm m hm hm
